Indiecast - Built To Spill + The Afghan Whigs

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

There's something poetic about the fact Built To Spill and The Afghan Whigs dropped an album on the same day. The bands may have been diametrically opposed in the '90s, but because they peaked around the same time and have now become a staple for Gen X indie heads, the two groups oftentimes get put in the same category. On this week's Indiecast episode, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen put both bands' legacy into perspective while discussing Built To Spill's When The Wind Forgets Your Name (18:39) and The Afghan Whigs' How Do You Burn? (36:57)The biggest music news of this week came from Harry Styles and the absolute chaos that is his new film, Don't Worry Darling (:55). The film's premiere saw cringey interview quotes, Florence Pugh being a wild card, and a (debunked) rumor that Styles spit on his co-star Chris Pine. Plus, a fan mailbag question had Steven and Ian finally addressing which one of them is guilty of having a squeaky chair (7:26).In this week's Recommendation Corner (52:39), Ian endorsed Phoenix band Holy Fawn, whose new album Dimensional Bleed is out today. Meanwhile, Steven shouted out Bitchin Bajas' new album Bajascillators, which sounds like Philip Glass meets the Grateful Dead. New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 105 here or below and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review new albums by Built to Spill and Afghan Whigs. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. The best thing about him being a podcast host is that he feels like a podcast host. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

I really feel like we should have saw it coming that Harry's house would be this year's Daddy's home. I mean, gosh, how much, how much mileage have we gotten out of this guy? I feel like our uprocks, higher-ups are going to be, you know, pounding on their desk demanding like Harry Stiles content, like their pictures of Spider-Man or something like that. Well, yeah, and there's also the contingent of our fan base that is upset that we're going to be talking about Harry Stiles again in this episode. But look, we can't not talk about him. this story with this movie coming out, don't worry darling,

which I can't believe this movie isn't out yet because I feel like we've been hearing about it for months, but we're still like a few weeks away from this movie dropping. But there was a bunch of news this week because the film premiered at the Venice Film Festival. And it was like a new story every day seemingly with this movie. There's the controversy with Florence Pugue, the leading lady. She apparently has a,

a beef with the director, Olivia Wilde, because Olivia Wilde and Harry Styles, they hooked up during the filming and the timeline in terms of, you know, was she still with Jason Sedakas at this time? This is very us weekly. I'm sorry to be leading with this, but... You tell me what else has been going on this week, and we'll be more than happy to cover it. The thing is, is that, you know, you referenced Daddy's Home. We haven't had a good album cycle in a while that was generating fun things to talk about. All the album, album cycles lately have been very smooth, very professional, you know, just pureless execution on the part of publicists and PR people and all that. Don't worry, darling, is the closest

thing that we have to a train wrecky album cycle. And you have the biggest pop star in the world, Harry Stiles, like spitting on Chris Pine, allegedly, both parties did not that there was spit going on. If you want to go online, you can look at the video. from the Venice film premiere where it looks like Harry Styles is spitting into the lap of Chris Pine. People have dissected this over and over again. You know, the Supruder film has been invoked many times

in reference to this video. I could not wait to see how you were going to pronounce Zepruder because I don't know how to pronounce it either. I think it's subruder. I feel like I've heard that set out loud. So I think I nailed that one. By the way, last week, do you realize that you said Roger,

Goodall instead of Roger Goodell? I must say. Did you notice that? I did not think of that at all. Wow, you've been holding. Well, no, like, because people were tweeting. Because in the moment, I noticed that, but I was like, you were in the middle of a point.

I didn't want to interrupt you. People were tweeting at us about that. So I just, you know, a little ummbudsman here. I just want to acknowledge that, uh, at least one of us will acknowledge that that happened last week. But anyway, you know, in the intro here, I referenced a Harry Styles quote from this press cycle where he said something like the thing that he likes about, don't really darling, is that it's a movie that feels like a movie. And people were roasting him for that, even though I know what he means.

They were roasting him for that. There was another quote where he was talking about how music for him is personal, but when you're acting, it's as if you're playing somebody else. That was another Harry Styles quote. That's a great quote. That's like a Lou Reed type quote. Like if Lou Reed was like trying to be funny, he would say that. It's very Alda Snow. I just go back to Alda Snow, the character from forgetting Sarah Marshall.

I mean, this whole dynamic between Stiles, Olivia Wilde and Jason Sadecas, it's very real life forgetting Sarah Marshall, except Jason Sadekis is not a loser. He's an Emmy award-winning, very good-looking, successful actor-comed. But I don't know. What's fascinating to me about all of this Harry Stiles backlash that's been happening lately is that it does show how, you know, in the music world, he's been treated really with kid gloves. I mean, people have been very, in the media, have been very generous to him, very worshipful of him. And in the movie world, which is a bigger world than the music world, and much gossipier and bitchier and all that stuff, he's been getting roasted to a degree where even I think is. it's a little unfair.

Like some of the things that he's been, the people have been making fun of him about this week. I've really enjoyed it. It's been great fodder. But some of it, I'm like, okay, ease up on Harry Styles here. You're going a little too far. But I don't know.

I've just been loving this story. I hope this movie never does come out. And maybe it never will because it feels like it should have already been out. But, you know, we're still a few weeks away, and people just keep talking about all these microcontroversies. I don't know. I mean, like, I love how you point out that the movie world, like, we think sometimes, like, the music world is, like, super bitchy and insular man. You can get off so much more worse things if you're, like, on movie Twitter.

Like, sometimes I have to, like, check in on movie critic Twitter just to see how bad it could possibly get with music. Like, they have absolutely no qualms about roasting people, largely because I think, you know, like movie stars, movie directors, like, they're celebrities. They're like millionaires. Whereas, you know, making fun of, say, like an indie rock band. I mean, I think, you know, like making fun of an indie rock band. It's like, yeah, this could hurt their bottom line. Like, you get free shots at Harry Styles. And by the way, like, I just got to, if we have any doubts as to, like, the extent of this person's influence,

I went to Barnes & Noble this weekend. And there is, I counted, it had to be at least 10 different magazines that had him on the cover, not just like, you know, Rolling Stone or Us Weekly, but like magazines that are entirely about Harry Styles. I kind of just wanted to pick one up. It's like, are these recipes? Are there ones where there's just padding? I'm fascinated about like who is buying this? Because he seems to be positioned more as an adult pop star rather than like a teen idol.

Well, I'm wondering in the same Barnes & Noble, did you see any magazine covers with Doug Marsh or Greg Dooley on the cover? Did you see any of that? Because that's who we're going to be talking about in this episode. I just wonder, like, do we have our fingers on the pulse of culture, or at least the culture of Barnes & Noble? At all? We definitely do not. But, you know what?

Like, I imagine that most of the Barnes and Noble patrons are pretty interested in what we have to say about these two longstanding 90s institutions. Yeah, well, I'm excited to get into it. But before we get to that, we have to, get into our mailbag segment. And thank you all again for writing in. It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com.

I'm going to read this letter because I feel like it's directed at you. It's not intended to be directed at you, but this might be a chance for you to make a confession to our listenership. So I'm going to read this question. It's short and sweet. It comes from Stephen, and he's from Mount Gambier. South Australia. Would that be Mount Gambier? I don't know the, that sounds more French than Australian, but you got me. I don't know. Anyway, Stephen, great to hear from you. I don't know if, I think we've had

other Australians right in. Australia is a great rock and roll country. Absolutely. They always go hard at Coachella. That was the one thing I had noticed. It doesn't matter if it's like two o'clock in the afternoon. If you have an Australian band up there, there's going to be like hundreds of people waging Australian flags and just going hard all day. Yeah, just mainlining Fosters like at 10 in the morning, getting ready for those early afternoon slots. They're ready to go by the time.

Well, Australian band. Like, who we have a gang of use, although they're not really there anymore. Tamipala. Tamapala. I don't even think of them as Australian anymore, though. You got Courtney Barnett. You get the Courtney Barnett set there at the festival.

You got all the Australians coming out. Cut copy. Cut copy. Is it King Gizzard from Australia? I want to say they are. They got three albums dropping. I love that. They announced three albums this week.

We have to, we're going to have to talk about them at some point. They'll be an interesting topic because I feel like we are on the same page, probably with them. I don't know. I don't know how you feel about them. I respect the hustle. I love the fact that they just put out music time and time again. And that like they're like one of the few bands that I can actually say. Like I know people in real life who don't really keep up with like indie rock.

But they like them. Like people who are totally stoked about like psych fest and levitation. King Gizzard is like festival headliner at this point. Oh yeah. Yeah, they play Red Rocks. They headline Red Rocks. and these huge outdoor venues here in America. They're big.

Yeah, I respect The Hustle, too. I have not yet found an album of theirs that I really love. Their music kind of goes in one year out the other for me. But they're putting out three albums, like, this year, and they might go more. You know, after they drop these three, they might have, like, another seven in the tank. So, you know, their albums are like busts,

If you don't catch one, you'll catch the next one. So I'm hoping one of these buses I'm going to get on and want to stay on. I was going to say like New England weather or something like that. If you don't like the weather, just wait 30 minutes. Is that what they say about New England weather? I haven't heard that one. I think they do, right? I don't know.

I don't know. We're going to get a bunch of letters from people in, like, you know, Maine and Portsmouth, New Hampshire, saying that I have completely misrepresented their region. Yeah, I don't know. Like New England weather, it's as volatile there? You know, you're getting sunshine and it's snowstorm the next hour. I don't know. I haven't heard that one.

But, yeah, New Englanders, we definitely have a lot of New Englanders out there. Right in and hit us up with that. Let's get into this letter. I'm going to read this to you. This is from Stephen. He says, proud to be amongst your most southerly listeners. Yeah, that probably is as far south as Indycast international community goes. I just want to ask,

Who has the squeaky chair? It adds a great aesthetic. Cheers, Stephen. I feel like Stephen is addressing something here that has been part of our sonic tableau, if you will, for the entire run of the show, is that there are occasionally squeaky chair noises that echo throughout the episode, almost like a Greek chorus, if you will, commenting on what we're talking about. Ian, do you want to address this?

Yeah, I mean, it's totally my chair. And I wonder, you know, I wonder often, like, how much this stuff gets picked up? Does Brian, like, edited it out? But you know what? Like, we've kind of ran with it trying to do like a big thief, circa UFOF two hand style production aesthetic where, you know, you hear all the room sound and all the cuff sound effects. Like, we really think that it provides this ASMR. Like, you get to live inside. Like, we want you to live inside this podcast. Like, we want you to live inside this podcast. And you know what? Maybe like what we'll do is like we'll add more like maybe I'll have the fan running because like I don't have the fan running and it's like 90 degrees already in San Diego today or maybe like in 2023 like I'll get a new chair one that's stationary and

you know, we'll get complaints about like how we've gotten too slick and sterile. Right. Exactly. It's like this is the early Elliott Smith albums and then if you were to get a soundless chair It would be, you know, the figure eight period. Rob Schnaff chairs. Exactly. Get a Rob Schnaff chair. People would be like, this is good, but I miss the self-titled record. You know, maybe there's a happy medium like either-or type thing where it's not quite as squeaky, but there's still some of those squeaky noises.

I mean, I do feel like we can't really change it now because this is part of the show. And it would just change the atmosphere. of what we're doing here if he didn't have the squeaky chair. I do like the idea that there's times maybe where I'm saying something that you find really objectionable and you're biting your tongue, but you're sifting in your seat and like the squeaks are expressing that. Like the Salamanca dude in like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Like this is my version of ringing the bell.

Exactly. So people can tell, okay, Ian's not talking. but you know Steve is again making fun of Maddie Healy and Ian's really irritated by it because it's just it's squeaking like hell over there. By the way, I want you because you've made another reference to how hot it is there in San Diego. So you don't have air conditioning in your house? Oh, we do have air conditioning, but if this was on, you would definitely hear it. Oh, okay.

So you are, you're sacrificing. You're just like sweating buckets right now. Like, yeah, you know, just Bruce Springsteen-style. Like, I'm sweating through my shirt. Yeah. You're like Patrick Ewing in the NBA finals. Game seven. Wait a minute.

I did a boss reference and you brought up Patrick Ewing. Man, what a role reversal. I know. We like to shake it up here. It's like when you knew the title of the Sticks record. You know? Then I'm obligated to make a reference to, you know, Patrick Ewing playing the Houston Rockets in the 94 NBA finals, you know,

and sweating a lot. I feel like Bruce and Patrick Ewing are like two great go-to references for sweating. Is there like another great sweater out there that you could reference that and people would know? Oh yeah, that's a great sweat reference. There's got to be other ones. Yeah. Write us in. Mailbag.

Indicast at gmail.com. We should do a thing on like the sweatiest indie musicians. That could be an episode. Sweat core. Sweat core. Let's get to our list of topics for this week. Like we said at the top of the episode, we're going to be talking about Bill to Spill

and Afghan Wigs. They both have new albums out today. And I guess before we get into each record, let's pull back a little bit. It is interesting to me that these two bands are being paired up in this way because on one hand, they are both, I would say beloved 90s institutions.

They're both survivors. I mean, Afghan Wigs had a break. where Greg Dooley was doing other things in the 2000s, and then he revived the Afghan Wigs name in the 2010s. Built a Spill has just consistently been built a spill over the course of like 30 years. But it is funny to me because I look at Afghan Wigs as being this very stylized horn dog, flamboyant type band,

and Biltespil being this very sort of wide-eyed Pacific Northwest, nothing overtly sexual about it at all. Just, there's a sweetness to build the spill, beauty to it. And yet here we are. They're both together on this day, putting out records,

and they're both indie rock lifers. I feel like people that like one band probably like the other. Yeah, and they're both on subpop. I think a big day in Seattle. Oh, right. Oh, I didn't realize that. I knew built the spill was. I didn't know Afghan Wigs were on subpop now.

Yeah. So, you know, when we're talking about like how they somehow have aligned, we have to think back to, I think it was 2018 they toured together, which we, at Indycast, we just love these things like Summerland and just like heaven where, you know, the passage of time narrows the perceived differences between genres and bands. Like, we spend so much time in the current day trying to, like, you know, suss out the, you know, the narcissism of small differences between, like, shoe gays and shit gays or whatever. But, you know, to have both these bands together, like, pretty much all of my real life friends from the age of 35 to 45 were at this show, particularly ones in, like, the sober community. I guess if you are that age and went through an Afghan wigs phase, you've got some amends to make. and it was just so funny to see the kind of difference between demeanor in these two bands because you know you got Greg Dooley up there

just kind of doing I got a dick for a brain and then like you know Doug Marsh like not hitting the notes at all asking if like trees experience love or something like that but it you know what like they but over the 30 years they've kind of towed that line between major label and indie they had like a peek around the same time and yeah, I think it's fair to say that, like, this is going to be like a bogo type thing at the subpop store.

If you get the new built-to-spill album, you're probably going to want the new Afghan Wigs album or vice versa. Well, and we'll get into this. I think you and I differ a little bit on which album we would pick up at the sub-pop store. If you could only buy one, I feel like you and I aren't, like we would maybe buy it together to get the discount. But then when we're leaving, we would each take our respective record and go on our merry way. But we'll get into that in this episode. Let's start with Built to Spill. They have a new record out today.

It's called When the Wind Forgets Your Name. It's the ninth built to spill studio record of original material. They put out a Daniel Johnston tribute record a few years ago, but we're not counting that in the lineage here. This is the first, let's say, proper built to spill record in seven years. And I guess let's talk first about just our personal interaction with Built to Spill before we talk about the new record. I actually published a story this week on Up Rocks where I interviewed Doug Marsh and we went through all the Built to Spill records.

And it was a really interesting interview. He was really candid about what was good and what was not good and what he had his heart into and what he didn't have his heart into. And it's kind of what you would expect him to say. But it was interesting to hear him confirm. it when I talked to him. But I'm just curious, like, what was your first interaction with this band? So I think back to, like, I want to say, oh, yeah, I heard, like, perfect from now on, because,

you know, that was, like, a major label album. But I think back to my, I'm very interested to suss this stuff out, because when I was, when I was a, when I voted for the, it was 2009, Pitchfork did a best 90s songs list. And I just saw just, there was such a tremendous difference between. the experiences of people who were like 18 at that time in 22 or like even 20. So yeah, I was in my first year at college. And, you know, I thought like I knew shit about music. Like I thought because I watched MTV a ton and, you know, red Rolling Stone and spin front to back. Like, I knew things about like how shit actually worked. Turns out like I did, had no real concept

of indie rock whatsoever. And so the same guy, the same massive. influential person of my life who recommended placebos without you um nothing in the first semester in the second semester in the early 1999 he recommended keep it like a secret so that was the first bill to spill out my herd and to this day probably still my favorite you know because it's like the most it's the tightest it's the most tuneful it's the most kind of like angsty in its way it's sort of like

they're bleed American so yeah and from that point forward I bought the live CD. And I think from that point, I like worked backwards and, you know, also for it as well. So, again, this was kind of like a best case scenario for a major label built spill album in that like it, you know, it not, it, it didn't foreclose the possibility of me discovering their indie year. So yeah, so to your point, you know, I'm a couple years older than you. So my engagement with them is a little bit different. I went to college from 96 to 2000. So to me, Bill to Spill was fixed in my mind as one of the quintessential bands of my college years.

Because that period of time, it coincides with arguably their two biggest records, which are 1997's perfect from now on. And as you mentioned, Keep It Like a Secret, which came out in 1999. Those were both on Warner Brothers. The first record on Warner Brothers was perfect from now on. I remember hearing about their second record, there's nothing wrong with love, which came out in 94. I feel like a little bit before Perfect from Now On came out. And it was definitely one of those records that, like,

I wasn't aware of when it came out. And it really came to signify like, this is what indie rock is. You know, that this is a band that exists under the radar. It seems a little noisier and not as slag. Lick as alternative rock, but it's still melodic and pretty accessible. So I remember, like, Perfect from Now On being kind of a big deal when that album came out, just because there's nothing wrong with love was really beloved and a really strong record. And Perfect From Now On, I think, is still the album for me that I go to the most with Built

The Spill. Like, if I were to say, what's their masterpiece? I would say, Perfect from Now On. I think there are people that would say keep it like a secret, and there's also people, people that love, there's nothing wrong with love. I think there's no question that those three records are the power center of what Bill to Spill does. It's funny too with Built to Spill to me because, and this is totally in my own mind,

this is not exist anywhere else, but in my own mind, there is a mini rivalry between Bill to Spill and Neutral Milk Hotel, because Neutral Milk Hotel was the other, I think, big indie band of the late 90s, at least in my little enclave and O'Polm, Claire, you know, people that were listening to this kind of music. Like, those were the big two records. And I feel like, you know, like in the airplane over the sea was the one that really became the big record, you know, the canonized record. And perfect from now on is like beloved. I mean, that's also in the canon. But I guess in my own mind, there's like a rivalry between those two records. And I feel like the praise that in the airplane over the sea gets should go more to

from now on. Like, that's the album that should have been topping that pitchfork 90s albums list. Like, wasn't in the airplane over the sea number one? It was like number one or number two. It was up there. The 90, OK Computer was number one. I think it, there was, uh, Loveless was up there as well.

Okay. Right. Yeah. Or maybe like a pavement album or two. But, like, I think we just need to like kind of stop right here and like pivot in this episode to like an oral history of. of like O'Clair slash Appleton's like indie rock discussions in the late 90s. I need to know more.

But I always thought of like built a spill as being compared more towards like, you know, bands like Death Cab or Modest Mouse. Like that was the rival, if not rivalry, like the most comparative point. Because, you know, like as you were saying, like Doug Marsh, you know, continued to make records for 30 years. And, you know, Jeff Mangum has not. So I think that's kind of solidified the legend. of in the aeroplane over the sea.

And also, I think maybe there's just like this sense of, you know, in the airplane over the sea being kind of outsider art in a way that, you know, connects and resonates with people who seek out in Iraq. But I also think it's very fair to say that there's nothing wrong with love. It's up there with, say, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain as the embodiment of what, like, If someone were to ask, hey, what is 90s indie rock? I would put that on. Yeah, I would, too.

And I think the thing with Built a Spill is that there's no cult of personality, really, like with Doug Marsh, in the same way that there is with Jeff Mangum, or even someone like Stephen Melchmus, you know, like where people really identify with the lead singer, and there's this idea of who that person is. And Doug Marsh doesn't really have that. He's just a guy in this band. You know, I think people who like Built to Spill, They think he's cool. They like his voice.

They like his guitar playing. But people don't really spend a lot of time, I don't think, thinking about what Doug Marsh does over the course of his day in the same way that they did about, like, Jeff Mangum or, again, Stephen Malcolmis, or even like Robert Pollard, like, all these, like, 90s indie rock people. I'm curious how you feel about the rest of the catalog. Because, again, I think it's pretty firmly established what the three best records are. and fans will put them in whatever order they want,

but I don't think anyone is going to put a different record in their top three, like other than those three. One of the things I thought was interesting when I talked to Doug Marsh was he talked about the record Ancient Melodies of the Future, which came out in 2001. It was the follow-up to keep it like a secret. And he basically said, my heart was not in this record. That, like, I was bored with alternative rock at that time.

I wasn't interested in playing the guitar. You know, I brought these songs to the band because I felt like I had to put out a record because of my contract. Like he had some misunderstanding that I guess he had to put out a record every two years or something, which wasn't the case. He could have waited more time. But that seems like a record that that's like the dividing line in the catalog, right? I mean, you have the classic period. We haven't mentioned the debut.

Ultimate Alternative Waivers, which came out in 93. That's also like a really good record. But it seems like ancient melodies is like, okay, this is where a lot of people probably dropped off. I would say that this album, you know, to the degree, an album like that could exist in 2001 is like their version of like, come on feel the lemon heads or file under easy listening. Like if you see these stores were still a thing to the same degree in 2001, like that's what ancient melodies of the future is.

It's an album I think a lot of people our age bought and didn't love. Now, mind you, I kind of love this album in my own way because, you know, I spent $17 fucking on it at a time where I did not have $17 all that often. So I was going to love this album no matter what.

And I appreciate that your interview with Doug brings this stuff out because, you know, as much as I want to romanticize the artistic process and think that like bands are like, you know, fully in the tank when they put out a record, sometimes they half-ass it. And you know what?

Like, it felt like I could breathe after 20 years that, you know, maybe my opinion on Ancient Melodies of the Future is the one that Doug Marsh himself has. And yeah, from that point forward, and maybe it's because I was out of college after that point. Like, nothing that Biltesville did. Like, I was kind of an a la carte person from that point forward. Like, I remember Ewan reversed, the one that came out in 2006. My experience with that album is inextricable from the leak that had like,

Who is Mike Jones ad-libbed over that? Did you get that leak back then? You know, that sounds vaguely familiar. Which is such a bizarre thing that who was Mike Jones thing. I think, yeah, I think I had that. Yeah, I mean, like now for our younger listeners, like back in 2006, these things called albums might do something called leaking, where you could hear them on the internet

before they were supposed to come out. Like this is around the same time that you could hear Return to Cookie Mountain and like with Wolf like me as the lead track rather than I was a lover. But yeah, from that point forward like built to spill albums were like welcomed. You know, there would be a song or two I'd like.

But, you know, I'd never be able to like truly invest myself in it. It was like, you know, like a TV show that I could check in and out of and, you know, not feel too strong. strongly about it. Like maybe I'd be compelled to review one and drop like a 7.0 on it and then forget about it completely. Yeah, you know, one thing that Doug Marsh said in an interview, which I'm sure he believes, but I don't think lines up with anyone who actually listens to this band, like their experience with this band.

Like he said that every built to spill song is an anomaly, you know, that there is no quintessential built to spill sound. And it's like, really? come on. It's like his voice and his guitar playing are so distinctive that even though there's been different people that have come in and out of that band, there's a through line

with the records where they're not radically different from one another. And in a way that's a blessing because you talk about you in reverse, I actually think that's a legit comeback record. The first song on that album is going against your mind which I think is like one of the great Bill to Spill songs. I'll put that... The album

itself, I don't think, is as good. is the first three, that the first three, but those core three records. But that song can stand up to anything that they've done in the past. And I think the record overall is quite good. But the albums that they put out after that, I think, like you said, they're all like 7.0 or so records, you know, 7.0 to 7.5, they're all good and they're all enjoyable when they're on. But because of the built to spill formula, you always feel like, well, if I want

built to spill, there's those three records. and you're not going to really need to hear anything else. It's going to be lesser iterations of what those three records are. So that's the blessing and the curse of having such a distinctive sound, is that all the albums are consistent, I think, but you're also going to have a hard time topping what people consider to be your classic work. Which brings us to the new album,

because I will say that this record, I think is their best since you in reverse. Like if I were going to do a top five Built to Spill records, you'd have the core three in whatever order, you in reverse, and I think you'd throw this one in there. I think it's a pretty strong record. And it surprised me actually how much I like this album.

Because again, like you said, I like Built to Spill. I will always listen to anything they put out. But I'm usually listened once or twice and then I'm done. But I've been enjoying this record quite a bit. I think there's actually some, like, pretty strong songs on this record. I would say that, like, I wouldn't put it above. There is no enemy if only because, like, hindsight is one of my favorite built to spill songs and nothing.

Like, it wouldn't matter if, like, you know, there is no enemy have, like, hindsight and nine songs that, like, totally sucked. Like, the fact that it gave me hindsight, it makes it inevitably better than, you know, the newer one. By the way, I think we just kind of have to point out that the title of this album, when, the wind forget your name compared to Afghan wigs, how do you burn? I mean, boy, does that really spell out the difference between these two? Yeah, I mean, with this one, you know, I think it's, it's, I've come to realize through this album that it's probably impossible to write a bad built a spill song, but it is very possible to write like built a spill by numbers. And that's kind of what this album feels like to me. I'm not mad at it in any way, but, you know, I feel like

there's just something kind of missing. Maybe it's like the tempos are too similar or that, you know, some of the guitar shows happen where you expect them to or I don't know. Maybe I'm just like exhausted by the built to spill sound. But I got to ask it. I'm not like putting you on blast or anything like that. But one thing I do find out is that particularly with like older artists, when I interview them, I tend to like the album more. Uh, is there like any component, do you think Any component of that? Like, have you experienced that in your career as a writer? Yeah, I mean, I know what you mean,

and there probably is an element of that. It is also an element of just having revisited all these albums. And, you know, again, like, when you're listening to these records, I do think that, I don't think they've made a bad record. I think all their records are really enjoyable. The question is, how sticky are they? Like, how much do you actually want to go back to it? And that's the question that can only be answered over the long haul.

I mean, I've been immersing myself in the catalog here in recent weeks, so I think that certainly probably influences my opinion a bit. But having revisited these other records, I will say, again, I think that the new record is quite good. And you said that you can't really write a bad built-the-spill song. I don't know if Doug Marsh can write a bad-built-a-spill song. But I think there's a lot of other bands that have written Bad Built-A-Spill songs. Like this is a band, and I said this to him, because he always talks about,

like, I'm not a good singer. I'm not a good guitar player. And I was like, you know, a lot of bands that have come from your part of the country. Like the upper western part of America, I feel like Built a Spill is like a touchstone for like what people emulate. And that's starting with, you know, you mentioned Modis Mouse. I mean, they were one of the earliest bands to draw on Built to Spill as an inspiration. And in a way, you could say that they surpass Built a Spill. I think that the peaks of Modus Mouse surpassed.

surpass built to spill. After their peaks, it gets a little rocky. But, you know, just his voice and again,

his guitar playing, I think it's so elemental to like a lot of like crunchy guitar leaning rock music from that part of the country. Yeah, and I also think that

like we have to mention Death Cap for Cutie who, I mean, Ben Gibbard will all but admit that on the first two Death Cat for Cutty records, there's like just some like

outright built to spill ripoffs. You know, I think that their influence has, I don't know, like, I almost think of it less as a Pacific Northwest slash Mountain Time sound as like a Philly sound because there are like entire labels and scenes of indie bands these days who are more or less doing, there's nothing wrong with love fanfic. I mean, I don't think anyone's really trying to do perfect from now on. Like that's a very hard record to emulate. But it's built to spill just kind of indoors because in some. ways it's like easy to sound like built to spill but you know Doug marsh I guess he's like a very self-effacing dude in that like uh he might not be like a virtuosic guitar player but like the way he voices chords and riffs it's like you play that and it's like I want to sound like built to spill

and plenty of bands have done just that which in a way makes me appreciate built to spill more um in the same way that like you know even when I go back to like older pavement albums When you hear, like, the bands that they've influenced, you appreciate the genuine article more. Okay, so I think I can safely say that I like this album more than you do, the new one when the wind forgets your name, but we're both fans of Built to Spill generally. I am all for the Built to Spill extended universe. So I think we're going to have a reverse conversation now as we move into Afghan Whigs here, a band that I know we both appreciate, but appreciate in different ways. As we said before, these bands, in a lot of ways, are opposites, but they are in a parallel alignment at the moment. This is the ninth Afghan Wigs record coming out today.

Again, it's called How Do You Burn? And it's the first one in five years. So again, another long gap between albums. In Afghan Wigs, it's been interesting because while Built the Spill has just continued on pretty much continuously over the course of 30 years, there was a break in the history of Afghan Wigs where they start putting it. putting out records in the late 80s. They reached their peak in the early to mid-90s, and then there's a breakup at the end of the 90s,

and then they come back as Afghan Wigs 2.0 in the mid-2010s, and they've been putting out records pretty consistently ever since then. I know, like, you and I were talking a little bit before this episode. You and I have different, I guess, first encounters with this band. I'm curious, like, how did Afghan Wigs first come into your life? So they, I have vague, but like very true memories of like seeing the gentleman video on MTV once. And I think I heard Honkies Ladder on Alt Rock Radio once. And Honkies Ladder, that's from congregation, right?

No, that is from Black Love. That's from Black Love. Yes. Also, like if it, I don't want to like distract from the episode, but like maybe take a four minute break and go watch the Honkies Ladder video like this, I beg of you. Like, if you want to see, like, what people were getting away with in the 90s in this, like, kind of post-reservoir dogs, like, Tarantino time, go watch the fucking Honkies ladder video or watch any of their live performances from the Black Love era.

But, yeah, I mean, like, I heard, I was aware of their existence, but, like, thought of them as maybe, like, an angrier urge overkill or something along those lines. and, you know, like I never felt much. They were like one of those bands that like would never show up on the best of the 90s list. But I was kind of aware they were maybe on that B tier along with urge or like Grantley Buffalo or something like that. And so oddly enough, the first Greg Dooley project that I bought was his Twilight Singers project in 2000 because I mean, again, this was me in college. I was listening to any rock band that was like, yeah, we're really influenced by Electronica and Tristan. pop now. I play that on

a lot when like I couldn't sleep and I don't mean that as a diss. But yeah, I mean, you mentioned like yeah, Afghan Wigs shut down, but there's this incredibly large galaxy of like Greg Dooley side projects and collaborations and Twilight Singers definitely holds its own. But that, yeah, that was

the first one I bought. And from that point forward, I only really got into Afghan Wigs. Like when I start, when I was like in my last year of college, we're like, more less things started to like fall apart for me you know like getting really into like drinking and like chaotic relationships and that really put me in a position to appreciate stuff like gentlemen and

more more more specifically like black love in 1965 which are like the the latter two are like you cannot make those records in 2020 yeah you know for me i i have very vivid memories of seeing the video for Debenair when I was in high school. And Debenair is one of the singles from Gentleman, their 1993 record, which I think is still like their most acclaimed record. Like if you were going to say, listen to this band, I know you would probably say Black Love, but I think the consensus would be go to Gentleman First. That's like the definitive, certainly 90s Afghan Wigs record.

And I remember getting that record, I had the cassette. and listening to it and being really blown away by that record. And Deb and Air in particular has always been a song that I loved. And the thing that stood out about Afghan Whigs in the early 90s was the sexual provocation of that record. You know, Greg Dooley on that album, he's writing about like the worst parts of the male psyche. You know, and this was at a time where you had bands like, you know, Pearl Jam and Nirvana, consciously.

trying to counteract the macho stances of like early of like 80s rock and 70s rock it was a time of like sensitive rock stars and Greg Dooley offered this counter programming to that where he is a sensitive guy I think

but he there was a thing with Afghan at that time where they were playing with sexual imagery and racial imagery in very provocative ways and there was something very kind of disturbing about it, like for me as a teenager, like the frankness with which, you know,

Dooley wrote about these things. And it just looked like a portal to like the adult world, like the sort of seedy side of the adult world that I wasn't quite prepared for when I heard the record. I get away, I was just thinking about this. I liken it to like the first time I saw a taxi driver when I was like when I was 14 and I remember thinking like I'm too young to be watching this you know like Travis Bickle going to porn theaters and seeing like Swedish adult films

and just really gross stuff and I was like I can't wrap my head around this man like I this is I thought I was a worldly teenager but I'm like there's still an innocent side of me that does not want to be exposed to these things and gentlemen was like that in a lot of ways as an album

and I just say you know you talk about the gats galaxy of music that Greg Duley has made, and there really is, like, a lot of music that he's done. Gentlemen, to me, is the only record that's, like, hit square on the bullseye. Like, that's the album that, I think, stands head and shoulders above the rest. And, like, the other records, you know, because you have Black Love, you have 1965, uh, 1965 came out in 1998, and then all the records that they've done recently, I've checked in on them and I appreciate them all, but I don't know, gentlemen to me is still the one.

And I don't think it's even that close really in their catalog. Oddly enough, that's like the one that doesn't hit for me. Like, I think you're correct in that the consensus is that if you're like, if there's one album that defines their legacy, it's gentlemen. But I think of that as I watched this movie recently called on the count of three where these two guys make a suicide pack and like one of them puts on last resort as they're about to do it and the one guy's like, yeah, I don't like to listen to music about the thing that I'm actually doing.

It's a little on the nose. And gentlemen's kind of like that for me. I appreciate the more sidelong view of, you know, chaotic male psyche from Black Love, which I know this is like mad trivial, but I vaguely recall reading in Guitar World, Greg Dooley saying that Black Love was loosely conceptually based on the OJ. And then I got to interview Greg Dooley in like 2014 when they came back. And he's like, that's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. But you probably did read that.

That sounds like something he would do. I mean, the thing with Greg Dooley is that I find that conceptually, he comes up with really cool ideas or at least interesting, provocative ideas. But then musically, it's not quite as interesting to me. You know, I, like, I would love to talk to him about his album. maybe more than listen to them. Does that make sense? I think that's a fair thing because, look,

some aspects of black love and especially 1965 don't really hold up that well. Like I imagine if I were like several years older when those records came about, I would have thought maybe they were a bit over the top. Like, because yeah, like you were saying, Greg Dooley plays with a lot of like, you know, hip hop and like black exploitation tropes that, you know,

don't exactly hold up all together that well. And yet at the same time, when you look at their recent work, like they performed with Usher at the Fader Fort in South by Southwest. It sounded really good. They cover Frank Ocean. It sounds really good. Like this guy, I think nowadays has like a gravitas that like makes their forays into like hard soul and R&B like hold up a lot better than when he was just like this

angsty, 20-something dude from Ohio. You know, like I put on these records when I find myself wanting to be in a mood. And I don't think that they are as aspirational as they used to be. But I think compared to Bill to Spill at the very least, like in Spades, the record they put out in 2017, great record. I think it's really up there with some of their best work. The Twilight Singers, I think Blackberry Bell, which came out in 2003. At times I say maybe that's like the best duly end-to-end project, which I think he kind of kind of agrees with as well. Yeah, and the gutter twins album he made with Mark Lanigan. There's like a long

relationship between those two. Just very, just a very, very, very expansive catalog, all of which centers on this strong personality, which I think in some ways makes it much harder to incorporate Afghan and raises an influence because you can sound like Bill to Spill without, you know, thinking of Doug Marsh. If you're going to like try to make an Afghan wig song, you can't be Greg Dooley. So I think that maybe explains why you don't see them as much as a touchdown for indie rock. Yeah, and I think also you mentioned how he's often drawn on, you know, soul influences, hip-hop influences. And I think the reason why it translates well is that he's always come at it from a sincere place. You know, it was never an element, I think even in the 90s of like, we're a white band.

doing this hip-hop song and isn't that funny, you know, because that was the thing that existed in indie rock for a while, that it'd be funny for a white rock band to be playing black music, which you look at that now, and it's so stupid and offensive. But I don't think Afghan Wigs were ever coming at it from that direction, so I think that's why a lot of that stuff holds up, even when it is, I think, pretty provocative. You mentioned in Spades being a record that you really loved. I'm curious how you feel about this new record. How do you burn? Because when I was listening to it, I was a little surprised by how rocky this album is, because I think one of the strings have been spades was that, you know, it was an Afghan

Wigs record, but it felt like it didn't sound like other Afghan Wigs records. It felt more experimental. It felt like, okay, Greg Duley is going into new places here, and it's pretty interesting for that reason. Whereas this album, it made me think a little of like the recent Spoon record, Lucifer on the couch. Is that what's called? Lucifer on the sofa is what it's called. And which is like Spoon's rock album. You know, it's more guitar heavy than something that, like the other records that they've done recently. And, you know, I was, I was listening to that Spoon record again recently. And I felt again the way I felt when it came out where I was like, I don't really like Spoon in this mode. I actually prefer the previous two records where they were a little more dancey, a little funkier,

and more electronic, I felt like that actually works better for me with Britt Daniel's voice than them doing the return to rock thing. Because I don't really think of them as like that kind of rock band. Even at their peak, I always felt like they're coming at it from like a slightly Dutch angle. And that's what's cool about a record like Kill the Moonlight. You know, that's not a straightforward rock record. It's more of a deconstructionist version of a rock record. But this Afghan Waste record, I don't know.

at times it made me think of like Queens of the Stone Age. You know, like it had that kind of vibe to it to me, which was fine, but I don't know. That's not exactly what I want from Greg Dooley, I don't think. The first single, you're correct, I'll make you see God is, that's the first thing I thought of, Queens of the Stone Age, and, you know, maybe thinking of it as like a tribute to Mark Lanigan, like, you know, two degrees removed. But what surprised me about, like, everything that came after that song, I'll be honest.

Like, when I first heard that single, I was not thrilled with that direction either. But it turns out to be kind of like a fake out, I think, on this record. Maybe it's just like the cover of this that reminds me so much of like the Twilight Singers albums like Blackberry Bell and Powder Burns, which came after it. In that, yeah, there's like this kind of dirty rock element that you're talking about. But I think it's a little bit more experimental. You hear like some drum machines going on. There's like some ballads happening. And I think that's where Twilight singers holds up better in some ways in Afghan wigs,

that they were able to integrate more of the balladry and, you know, the trip hop stuff that Greg Dooley is always interested in. I think there are like at least a couple of these songs that will, that enter the Afghan Wigs canon. Line of shots is really good. Catch a Colt, another great one. I like the collaborations that occur on this. And it just sounds to me, even if, like, you don't think it's as strong, I guess, as the Bill to Spill record. I think that, like, Greg Dooley, to his immense credit is always trying to do something different or just, like, advance the idea of what Afghan Whigs really is. Whereas, like, Bill to Spill, you can kind of, you kind of know what you're getting into.

And so I would be. But he, I will say, though, I mean, Doug Marsh is trying to do something different. I mean, this latest record, he recorded with a different rhythm section. It's these two guys from the Brazilian psychedelic rock band, and I'm going to butcher this pronunciation. It's like, O-R-U-A-R-U-A. Anyway, so he's trying to do something different. I guess we can argue about whether he succeeded.

Again, I think just because if you have Doug March singing on it, it's going to sound like Bill to Spill. But, I mean, I think he is trying, is my point. Yeah, I think he's trying and also that, like, you were kind of intimately that maybe he doesn't exactly like he's maybe not like the best he's not the best critic of his own work is like saying like oh I don't like have a great voice I don't know to play guitar

it's like there's no quintessential song he's trying but I think Afghan Wigs has proven to be like a more versatile band right yeah no I I agree with you I and again like you mentioned in Spades you know built a spillhouse and made a record like that you know like where I would if you put that next a gentleman, they are distinctly different in a way that, like, if you put, when the, when forgets your name next to there's nothing wrong with love, you know, they're much closer

together than those Afghan wig's records would be. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I want to talk about this band from Arizona, not something I get to say very often. Their name is Holy Fawn, and their new album is called Dimensional Bleed. They came on my radar in 2018 or so with death spells. It kind of hits those, it kind of hits that like death heaven, but make it more Sigur-R-Ross sort of sound, where some people might just call it as like death gaze or black gaze or, you know, there's maybe some emo elements in there as well. But they did eventually get to open up for death heaven.

I believe they played with greet death as well. And this album has been highly anticipated in its little corner of the universe or quite some time. And dimensional bleed, I think, really establishes them as like a band that is doing this particular thing as good as it can be done. In 2020, I can imagine this like playing really well with the sort of people whose favorite bands of the past 10 years. like nothing and dive.

You know, if you have like sleeve tattoos, but also like to listen to shoegaze with ethereal vocals, this is the sort of album that you, that's there for you. So, uh, highly recommend it. Um, maybe it's not the greatest record to listen to if you're suffering through perhaps the worst heat wave in 100 years in California. Or maybe it is. Maybe it's the, it's where the heat is just so overpowering. You just submit to this awesome force of nature.

So that's, uh, that's what the whole. Holy Flan record does for me. So I want to talk about a band from Chicago named Bichin Bahas. Now, by that band name, you might assume that this is like a Jimmy Buffett cover band playing this week at the local Margaritaville restaurant. But they are much different than that. They are a band that I would describe as like the midpoint between like Philip Glass and the Grateful Dead.

There's elements of like ambient music here. There's also like a jam band aesthetic going. on. But basically, it's an electronic group that uses a lot of loops, a lot of repetition. It's the kind of music that at first can seem very low-key to the point where it wouldn't grab your attention, but over the course of like long songs, and on the new record, I should say, it's called Baja Oscillators, and I hope I pronounce that correctly. I'm really tempting fate by even recommending this album. But this record, it has four songs, each of them are about 10 minutes long.

And it just creates a spell and a mood when you put this record on. The songs, they build over time using very minimal elements. But it's through the repetition that there's this hypnotic quality that takes hold. And it really is the kind of music that will send you into yourself. Like if you are looking to meditate, I think that this is the kind of record you're going to want to put on. Because it does, again, it puts you into a state of mind where it's only you in the record. It very, it clears away everything else. It's like, it's that kind of record, really powerful without seeming to do a whole lot. Like, I actually saw this group play live earlier this year.

And it's not the kind of band that you would think would be good live because, again, there is a gentleness to this, oftentimes, and it's not really music that is out to grab you. The band really has no stage presence to speak of. But again, there's something about it that really draws you in. And I'll, again, I'll go back to that Philip Glass meets Grateful Dead. I think that that is a good comparison for this group. So, you know, I've been thinking, like, is this a band that I want to be stoned to listen to? Because I think it could be amazing music to listen to Stoned. But I also feel like it could send me into some dark places in my mind that I don't want to go to. So that's something I still need to figure out with this band. But again,

check out this record out. The band is called Bitch and Baha's. The record is called Baha. They have other records too. You can find them all on band camp. Definitely check it out. I think it's interesting that like both of these records, despite coming from extremely different corners of the music universe, is kind of like on the same tip. It's like, yeah, this is very immersive, very dark.

I could send you to some really scary places when you're high. I mean, maybe we just need like a bitch and bahaz holy fauntor a la built to spill in Afghan wigs. It could be good. I feel like bitch and bahas would be more on the built to spill side. and Holy Fawn would be on the Afghan wig side, perhaps, because I don't know if they're dark exactly. It's just, again, it's very ethereal music,

and just being hypnotized in general kind of scares me. And there's a hypnotic aspect to this music where you could go either way. You could experience spiritual transcendence, or you could be sent into, like, the darkest pits of your own psyche. It could go either way. But isn't that what we want out of records that could send you either way?

think that this record could do that for you. So hopefully go check it out if that's what you're looking for. Thank you for listening to this episode of Indiecast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.