Indiecast - Daft Punk Breaks Up, Plus Julien Baker + Cloud Nothings

Episode Date: February 26, 2021

With the consistent haze of winter slowly fading into the rearview, 2021 is finally starting to kick it into high gear on the new music front. This week, Steven and Ian are digging into new releases from Julien Baker and Cloud Nothings, but not before taking a moment to eulogize the end of Daft Punk after 28 years.For Julien Baker, 'Little Oblivions' is her first album in nearly four years, and marks a turning point for the 25-year-old songwriter. Where her arrangements were previously sparse and centered around a looped guitar or a piano, the new album incorporates a full band aesthetic with drums and much more space to roam. What does a fleshed-out sound mean for one of indie’s most earnest songwriters?While Baker was quiet for nearly four years, Cloud Nothings have been more active than ever during the pandemic, turning to a Bandcamp subscription plan as a way to keep fans engaged. They released the home-recorded 'The Black Hole Understands' in July of 2020, and have already followed it up with the proper next studio album, 'The Shadow I Remember.' Where does it stack up in their nearly decade-long discography?In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steven is honoring the late Miles Seaton by revisiting the catalogue of his band Akron/Family, while Ian has been enjoying the new EP from Canadian outfit Arm’s Length.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we're going to be talking about new albums by Julian Baker and Cloud Nothings. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

So I mentioned this on the podcast before that, like, I don't drink or do drugs. And, you know, I feel like I've said it. but if I hadn't said it directly, it's implied every time Steve and I talk about jam bands. But, you know, there, in the, in the, in the pre-pandemic days when I would like get the flu and, you know, I would be liable to, you know, knock back some dayquil, turn on the spirit of the beehive. And, you know, that's as close to I, as I get to, like, skirting the line of legality. But, you know, this morning, I kind of had to, like, check to see if I was also. on drugs because like you know there are just some one of the great things about being

on the West Coast is that by the time I wake up like the discourse has already kicked into high gear like the East Coast has three hours start on me and it's like you see first words post Malone I mean like that's all but guarantee something weird is about to happen covering Hootie and the Blowfish only want to be with you

for the Poe yeah for the Pokemon 25th anniversary movie. And, you know, I think we throw the word like zeitgeist around here, like pretty often. Is that even how it's pronounced? I don't really think I say that word out loud much. That's right. I mean, I think what you're saying is that when you saw that headline, you felt like you were dosed with something that, uh, because you have post Malone and then you have Hootie and the Blowfish. And then you have the Pokemon 25th anniversary. And by the way, we're recording this on Thursday morning. So, uh, you don't, you know, if you're listening to this on Friday morning when our podcast goes up, you're probably already living in the post post Malone covers Houdi and the Blowfish for Pokemon's 25th anniversary world. And yeah, it was crazy seeing that.

I was very excited. You know, it's like if he had just covered Hootie and the Blowfish, I don't think it would have had the flavor that it had with the Pokemon 25th anniversary. I mean, I feel that combination of words. was so incredible. And I think it really... Like this is where culture has led us to. It's like you feel like it's one of those moments where just like everything falls into place. And it's like you, we, this is like a turning point in history where we will look back and just see everything as just steps that were taken to this day in history.

And, you know, I mean, I'm here for it. You know, we brought this into existence as a culture. I think so. I hate to be one of those annoying people that sees a movie and then just applies everything in the world to that movie. But I've been watching a lot of Adam Curtis documentaries lately. And I feel that when I look at Twitter lately, I just hear Adam Curtis's voice reading everything that I see. So, like, when I saw that headline, I just read it in Adam Curtis's voice. And him using it as evidence that we now live in a fake world that distracts us from the complexity.

of the real world. And I thought, yes, this is the latest example of that. But I have to say, too, that, you know, you and I, we often will exchange emails and DMs about, like, what are we going to talk about in the banter segment? And some weeks it's a little slow. The banter gods came through huge this week. I mean, you had a brewing Twitter feud between Jimmy Eat World and Eve 6, which I think would normally dominate this segment in a normal week.

You had tune yards going on late night with Stephen Colbert and dressed as a six-year-old, which was pretty incredible. That song, I think, is okay, like musically. Lyrically, it's another story. We have the Pokemon Post Malone thing. I feel, though, that we should say a little something about daft punk breaking up this week. That news, I guess that broke up. Was that on Monday? But they broke up this week, like five years ago.

Yeah, exactly. Like, it already feels like ancient hits. history. Yeah, I mean, and this is the unfortunate thing about doing a show on Friday when news breaks on Monday, because I feel as though everyone has already done their post-mortems talking about the impact that Def Punk had on music and on culture generally. One point I just wanted to make, because I didn't see a lot of people talking about this, and maybe someone did, and I just missed it. But one thing about Def Punk, you know, they weren't a group that two. toured very much. I don't think that they've toured since 2007, which was this historic tour that culminated with a very famous performance at Coachella. So they don't have this great sort of, you know, live music legacy. But I do think that that tour and that Coachella performance in particular, it seems like a really important moment in early 21st century music in terms of showing that electronic music could not just exist but flourish at music festivals

and that you could present this music in arenas and even stadiums in a way that would be as engaging as seeing a rock band or any other kind of artist and that seems as influential to me as like their albums in a lot of ways yeah yeah because i you mentioned that like as far as like making them like a stadium or a festival act now. I do think if you look at like the 90s, you could definitely have like, you know, these open field raves and all that. Yeah, but that's something different though.

The electric, yeah, but the electronic boom, like. Like bringing that into the mainstream, I think death punk was definitely crucial in that regard. But when people talked about like prodigy and the chemical brothers in like the late 90s as being like the new rock stars, I think this is what they sort of kind of had in mind. of like, you know, being able to, like, do these, like, basically, like, electronic music for normies, for lack of a better term.

And, you know, Dap Punk did that. And I think, like, a lot of the more kind of snobbier electronic people, you know, would bring up the fact that, like, oh, Discovery was just all loops. And they don't like a lot of the people who showed up. I mean, the fact that they are so, so associated with Coachella and, you know, and so forth. But, you know, the funny thing about Alive, which came out in 2007, that album and that tour was that, you know, that was after their, like, kind of flop of an album, human after all. And it's pretty incredible to see how they rebounded from that, like, an electronic, because most electronic acts, like, if they do kind of have this album or this period where they're not seen as, like, influential or whatever, like, it's pretty much over for, like, as far as, like, being a main, like, no bands out. ever like rebounded that way. And I think that was pretty incredible. But I mean, I think with that

punk breaking up, like you said, it's not like they were touring very much or they, their last album came out in 2013. And this is maybe the one time I get to compare them to yuck. But it's like when they broke up, it was more like a reminder that they were still together, you know, what do they have to gain by announcing that, oh, by the way, we're broken up now? Yeah. I mean, and I mean, I speculated on that and lots of people did. Because whenever you see a breakup announcement, it does kick the cynical part of your brain in of, oh, they're setting up a reunion tour at some point. Even though again, Death Punk is obviously not toured very much. It's not really in their DNA to be a touring act necessarily. But yeah, it's an interesting thing. Also, you know, you mentioned

their last album coming out in 2013. That was Random Access Memories, which has a very interesting story to it because I feel that that revival that they had after that 2007 tour, because you're right, after human after all, it seemed as though they were fading a bit and people were maybe going to talk about them more in the context of the 90s maybe or early aughts and that's where they would have been left. And there was this hype that was built around Daft Punk after that tour and there was a long gap between albums and then random access memories comes out. And that's a major cultural event at the time. Yes.

I remember there were commercials on television advertising that album and people would. There were commercials at Coachella, too. I remember that in 2013. I think Farrell was, if not one of the headliners, like one of the main acts. And we were like, is that punk going to show up? Is that punk going to show up? Right. And they made a commercial for Get Lucky.

And then for like the next six years, it was like, Is Daft Punk going to play Coachella this year? Is Daft Punk? And they, you know, they never did. but yeah, I mean, I think that, like, that was, the question with, like, daft punk is, like, are they breaking up so that they can, I don't know, boost, like, their booking fee for if and when, like, festivals do come back? And I don't think they really would need to do it, do that. Like, if you could get, if you got, if you got Daft Punk to play at any point, they could basically, like, just ask for a blank check. I mean, but, you know, now it's like, it's like, it.

when they do come back, maybe it'd be like for the 10-year anniversary of Get Lucky or, you know, if we assume that 2023 will be when festivals come back. But also I have to like think about the fact that, you know, acts like this that can't, that come back after long hiatus is, I guess is hiatus the word for multiple hiatuses? Either way. Hiata, maybe. Hiate-eye. I think about Outcast, which is in a similar way, like if you want to consider, I don't know,

hey-ya, their version of Get Like, lucky. You know, they, the whole, it was like, oh, they're never going to get back together. But Coachella was the first, you know, first festival to get them back. They ended up playing a bunch of places. And like, it was actually kind of, it actually kind of sucked. Like, Andre 3000 was like just completely uninterested. And like, Big Boy kind of had to carry the show.

And in a weird way, it was like, they almost like missed their window. Like, it's like, it's not the generation moves on, like everyone loves Outcast, but it didn't quite have the impact that it might have had like a couple years earlier. Like I do wonder if there's like a tipping point of Daft Punk nostalgia, like if they were to come back in 2023, whether they would have the same impact, you know? Did Outcast officially break up or did they just back away after making that movie? And I can't remember. I don't know. I don't know. The name of the movie.

and the album is idle wild. Guys, if you haven't listened to Idol Wild, like, it's so weird to listen to an outcast album that hasn't been like just completely absorbed into the culture. I don't know if they broke up, but like... Yeah, I feel like they didn't. I mean, someone can correct us if... I feel like there was never a formal announcement

that we're breaking up. It was just implied that they were going on this extended hiatus because Andre 3000 wasn't interested in, you know, being in the public, I guess. You know, the one example I would say to counter all this, you know, cynicism that they're setting up a reunion would be REM, who we're actually, this is like the, it's been 10 years now since they announced their breakup. That's like, that's the last band that I remember making a point to announce we're breaking up and not using, you know, a softer word like hiatus or something. And they have stayed broken up. And I have no expectation that they'll ever get back together again. And it seemed that their motivation for doing that was just to put a period at the end of the sentence.

So that there would never be anyone saying, you know, where's your album? Are you going to tour again? And maybe that's what Def Punk did. Maybe they just wanted to put a period at the end of the sentence. You know, that would be the counter to people speculating that this is just a ploy ultimately. I mean, honestly, I think the answer is that they probably are genuine in wanting to break up. Now, are they going to do the James Murphy thing and change their mind in a few years? I mean, who knows?

I'm of the opinion that no group has ever really broken up because given that, you know, making money from streaming or record sales is so hit or miss now, going on the reunion tour, at least in the post-COVID world, it's the only. the way you can make money. So I don't know. I think I think that Punk never has to work a day in their lives again if they don't want to. Like I just more wonder like what they do all day. Like what is the, what is the day in the life of Thomas like Bangalter or whatever? Like does he like they don't need to work again. That's that that like this is deaf. I don't know if it's a ploy or so much as like a way to like, I don't know, prime the pump for the next thing. They just. seem like this great opportunity that few bands have ever had to just be to just say that we're going to have five different daft punks in five different countries doing tours and we just franchise

daff punk uh bands like mcdonalds you could do that they could do that why not just because you're paying for like the light show you're paying for the sound system and as long as you have cool looking guys and helmets, are people going to be disappointed that it's not actually the two dudes in Daft Punk? How do we know it was them all along? Maybe they weren't even at Coachella. It could just been, you know, whoever. I feel like a million people made that joke on Twitter.

So I'm just saying it again. I'm putting the period on that sentence. Let's go to our mailbag here. This question comes from Kevin. Thank you, Kevin, for writing in. A note to future letter writers. Say what city you're from. I like to hear where our listeners are from,

especially if they're from other countries. That's always cool. So, Kevin, I don't know where you're from, but thank you for writing in. This is what he says. We had an icebreaker question at work today. What is your favorite ballad, meaning power ballad? The example my coworker gave was Poisons.

Every Rose has its thorn, a classic. As I was thinking tonight about whether I like Sister Christian more than Sweet Child of Mine. I hope you don't, because Sweet Child of Mine, I think, is a better song. I started to wonder, what is my favorite indie rock power ballad and kind of got stumped? What are some examples of indie or emo power ballads? Ignoring the artist style production, what are the Indicast picks for the best modern after 2001 equivalence of the 80s power ballad in the alt indie emo genres? Thanks, Kevin. P.S., I feel like Ian might say, near my god, by foxing.

I don't have a guess for your potential pick, meaning me. So I have what I think is a pretty obvious choice for mine, which is Maps by the Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. That was the song that immediately came to mind as a song that would fit in the mold of a power ballad. And of course, that song, we're really riding the line here in terms of like a modern power ballad. Because I think that song was like 2002, 2003. So it's pretty old. I have some other picks too, but I'm curious, what comes to mind for you for the power ballad question? Well, Kevin, you're absolutely right.

I think near my God is a prime example of power ballads because like when I think of like power ballad, I am still, like you mentioned a lot of like hair metal ballads. And that that means there are a couple of characteristics that are embedded in the idea of power of a power ballad. off, it's got to be like the third or the fourth single, you know, like after you get like the, you know, the real rocker going on and maybe like something that's a little more mid-tempo, you got to do like the power ballad, the one that's going to like boost the album to that next tier of like platinum status. And secondly, it's probably got to be about like the road or like, you know, love or something, like something that's like a little bit like out of character. And so Near My God was, I believe, the third single from the album of its same title.

And it's about being in an emo band in 2018 and wondering if anyone really gives a shit about this thing that you're putting your life into. So I would think if this were the 80s, like it would be the video where you see Foxing like just passed out after a show on the tour van and like, you know, the towel around your neck. You know, got the towel going. You're looking, you're looking, you know, get the thousand yards stair. Yeah, just thinking about that drive from like Billings, Montana to like Boise or whatever. I don't know. But so that is that. And also like the production kind of brings to mind like, you know, kind of like a synthesizer,

hair metal sort of sound. But otherwise, you know, it's tough to say because is it a matter of tempo? Is it a matter of subject matter? I think it needs to build. I think of a power ballad that starts with someone at a guitar or piano by themselves, and then by the end of the song, you've got the orchestra going, the band is going full blast, and there's this feeling of uplift by the end of the song. To me, you know, you've got the power at the end and you have the ballad at the beginning.

It's the inverse of what it's called. And I would say that because of that, the one song that I would argue that this is kind of like a proto-em-eum, power ballad is the funeral by band of horses. Yes. Like you hear that song and you kind of hear like sees of like what Manchester Orchestra might have became and other stuff in like the kind of emo diaspora. But that was also like I think the first song that people heard of band of horses. So it doesn't fit the mold in that way.

But you know that or like arcade fires we used to wait I think is another one. If we're talking about like straight up indie like you know indie from the 2010s, there's like 15, 1975 songs I could put up there because they really encapsulate that like 80 style of production. I think it's not living if it's not with you comes to mind. This must be my dream, which I don't think was a single but could have counted. Those songs don't build enough though. Like it's not living if it's not with you.

Like that doesn't strike me as like a power ballad though. Like a song that came to mind for me and this is to the surprise of no one because this is maybe my favorite band right now, but the song's strangest thing by The War on Drugs. from A Deep Rundraending. That is definitely a power ballad. That one definitely counts. I remember I received an early stream of that album and I messaged Adam and I said,

this is a song that you would hear in Armageddon after they blew up the asteroid. It has that kind of feel to it, how it builds to that climactic guitar solo at the end. Very power balladdy. How did he feel being compared to Aerosmith? I think he was, I think he was flattered by that. I mean, there were other things I said, too, that were maybe a little more on point. But just that build, I would say, too, that for me, the song Killer Whales, the car seat headrest song, has that vibe to it. And maybe it's because I saw them play that song where Will Toledo was at a piano.

and then it built to the sort of grand conclusion where he's doing the course about killer whales at the end. That live version in particular was a very power ballad type presentation. It felt more like November rain live than maybe it does on the record. I also feel like Lana Del Rey, her last record, Norman fucking Rockwell, has lots of power ballads. Because every song is eight minutes long and has a very stately pace. And she's such a dynamic melodramatic lyricist that it really plays into, I think, the power ballad dynamic in a great way. But it's interesting that because like most of her songs are power ballad. I think that like a power ballad's got to be like the one like, oh, I didn't expect this artist to be so sensitive.

Right. Like with every rose has its thorn. It's like, wait a minute. If this song's not about like, you know, getting drunk on the sunset strip with strippers, man, maybe this band's a little bit more multi-layered and sensitive than I imagine. That's good point. I need to go buy that record now. Good point.

Yeah, it's like this is the song where I'm putting out my cowboy hat and I'm sitting on a stool now. I'm not wearing the other pants. Like, I think with her it would be like, you know, an actual rocker that would be like the power ball, like something like a little, like just something that's a little more out of character. I don't know if you can make a power ballad if like that's like that's like, you know, like your, if that's like your main thing.

But I actually think like Julian Baker, like there's some power ballad. I think a lot of her songs could be described as power ballad too, right? Yeah. Well, is this a segue into our Julian Baker conversation? I feel as though we're opening the door. You're not the only one who can do a segue. Yeah, look at that. Look at you.

You just, you segued the hell out of that. Well, yeah, let's talk about Julian Baker. Julian Baker is a 25-year-old singer-old singer-songwriter from Memphis. Her first record came out in 2015. It was called Sprained Ankle. A very austere record, essentially a voice and guitar album. And from there, she's been gradually adding instrumentation to her records. You could hear that on her 2017 record, Turn Out the Lights.

And then, of course, there was the Boy Genius EP that she made with Phoebe Bridgers and Lucy Dawkins. And that record, I think, really put her into the mainstream like never before. her latest album which comes out today is called Little Oblivions and it's her fullest sounding record yet. I mean there's drums, there's a fuller band sound. This is like the first record of hers that I would call a rock record, even though it's still pretty stripped down. And it's certainly not like a heavy riffing record by any stretch of the imagination, at least not musically. But lyrically, this is, I think, her most scathing record. Baker has talked about how the period after the tour cycle for her previous record was a very intense period of self-doubt.

She said that she slipped out of sobriety at the time. She also enrolled in classes at Middle Tennessee State University, and I believe she got her. Blue Raiders. Yeah, a Blue Rader, very good. And she writes a lot about this period on her record. This is like an overused word in reference to singer-songwriters, but I think it does definitely apply to Julian Baker. This is a confessional record.

And I mean that literally. I interviewed her. The future went up this week, and she's talked about how she felt the need to confess things from her personal life because she felt that her image and persona were out of whack with who she really is as a person. And it's almost to the point of like self-flagellation on this record. Like there's a lyric in the song Ringside that I think, kind of speaks to that. The line goes, beat myself until I'm bloody, and I'll give you a ringside seat.

And I think, in a lot of ways, that applies to this record. And I'm curious to hear what you think about it. I feel like I like this record more than you do, just from, you know, we've talked about it a little bit. I think this is her best record. I actually like the fuller band sound, the more rock production. I think that musically she's giving more here than she has on previous records. so you can put on the songs and just enjoy them as music, I think more than you could on the previous albums. But if you do dig into the lyrics, again, I think it's a brutal record in a lot of respects,

but it's a very, I think, you know, fascinating and immersive album as well. So I really like this record a lot. I have a feeling that I like it more than you. Yeah, which is spot on. I mean, like I like it, I think maybe, more than like her previous work. But like I think it's fitting that she's talked about like Manchester Orchestra as being like

one of her, you know, primary influences because I think in a lot of ways there's, they're similar in that like people who share maybe like 95 to 98% of like my taste love this artist and like I'm a little cooler on it. I reviewed sprained ankle back in 2015, which is, you know, kind of a fun time to review a band when they like have some buzz but not hype where they feel ineffable. And, you know, the first thing that came to mind when I heard that record was dashboard confessional, like, for better or worse, dashboard confessional. Same sort of like punk artists to solo acoustic pipeline. She would open up for like, Tusha Amore because she was on 61, 31 records. And, you know, despite like what I, like, despite how much I write about emo and being a 40 year old man, like, who came of age in the early 2000s, late 90s. I never really gotten a dashboard confessional.

Like, it's a little bit of a secret shame because I think it's more, it's not the emotion being expressed that I have trouble with, but it's like the kind of, in a way that, like I said, like the whole steady is a band about rock music. Like sometimes Dashboard Confessional is like a band about performing emotion. And I think that everything on this record with Julian Baker is like completely genuine. And like, I don't doubt the intensity of. the lyrics or the inspiration, but like a part of it just seems a bit like

overwhelming and like, you know, suffocating in a way. And like when I heard the last record turn out the lights, I thought it was interesting musically, but I thought also like, okay, the next record is going to inevitably be the lighter, happier one where there's drums and, you know, I got that half right, I suppose. And with this album,

it brought to mind, like she comes from like, obviously like a religious background. It made me think of like bands that actually played Cornerstone back in like the early 2000s. Like there's a very specific production aesthetic here with like the crunchy drum loops and the flanger effects like like DreamWorks era Elliot Smith and like Snow Patrol final straw, let's call it.

It all like similar to the soccer mommy album from last year. It was like you hear like a lot of production going and it feels to me like a little I don't know. I found her music to be a bit suffocating anyway if I'm not in the mood to listen to it. And this one just feels like a bit more like claustrophobic. It feels more like a lot of overdubs rather than the band. And you know, I guess like my like my point like about the production and like the, you know, the the overwhelming performance component of it, I don't need to gas you up. I'm already on the show. So I found your interview with her to be so much more resonant and, like, affecting. Because so much of that interview was about the idea of, like, deconstructing this idea of Julian Baker,

needing to be this, you know, this confessional artist, like, laying it all out on the floor. And it felt like, it felt like more candid, more humane. And, like, when I throw on the record, it's still, like, just kind of bludgeoning. Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up down. dashboard confessional because for me, that comparison rings true not so much for the production, but for the vocal style. There's a very pleading quality to her vocals that I could see being a polarizing aspect of her music. And maybe that's where the bludgeoning effect comes in, because there is an intensity to her vocals that I think is almost operatic at times. And it,

can be a little much. It's a record that you aren't necessarily going to put on if you are cleaning the house or, you know, working out or doing something else and you just want something fun to listen to. This record demands your attention. And I think a great way, but I can see it also being suffocating in the way that you're talking about. It's interesting to me too,

and thank you for reading my interview and liking it. It's interesting for me to compare, her to Phoebe Bridgers. It's a natural comparison to make because they are in the same group and their peers, but also, you know, Phoebe Bridgers also writes these sad, intense songs, but her persona is comic a lot of the time and acerbic, and it's a contrast with her music, and I think it's almost a stress relief valve on her music, that you can go on Twitter, and she's often very funny and it doesn't have the same earnestness that I think that Julian Baker has in her public persona. I mean, I know I've interviewed her several times. I think that she's actually a pretty

funny person and very engaging. The music has like a kind of dark comic element to it as well. With Bridgers? I think taking on like the first that or no, with Julian Baker. Yeah. I think her music it can be kind of funny too. Yeah, but I feel that there's an intensity that is around her that is projected that, I mean, Phoebe Bridgers obviously has like intense fans that project a lot under her. But that was something that we talked about, I talked about that with Julian Baker in her interview in the interview that we did that I think that has weighed on her in the past. You know, the sort of bubble of intensity that gets reflected back to her because her music is

So, and again, I'm going to use this word that I hate, but confessional. And people don't separate her from her songs in the same way that I think, you know, I think people listen to Phoebe Bridgers and they think she's genuine and they love her music. But there is, I think, a little bit more of daylight between her records and who she is that you can appreciate her in a different way as a person than from the records. So yeah, I think that is a burden for Julian Baker at times, but it'll be interesting to see how this record's received. You know, it's gotten a lot of press. I mean, I'm hoping it does well. I think it'll do well.

It's definitely in line with the, I don't want to use the word trend because this is a pretty general thing. But there are a lot of female artists working right now that are working in this vein of emotionally raw, direct songwriting. I mean, the biggest songwriting. the world right now is a very poppy version of that that the song Drivers License by Olivia Rodrigo um you know is is in the same vein so I assume that people who are into that will also be into this record yeah it's interesting because when I heard this album like given it's more you know broad scope high definition production um and also like Julian Baker really kind of leaning into the powerhouse style of vocals like um if you

like everyone had mentioned like how Frank Ocean's blonde had kind of been like I don't know like a year zero for new pop where like you would take out the drums and there's a lot more negative space and it's like more kind of intimate and confessional like you play the new Julian Baker album and like I mean this just as like an objective uh you know view of the music not as like a you know acknowledgement of its quality but like if you told me that this was like a new pop artist like someone like post-drivers license, post-Billy Isish. Like, I'd probably believe you. It's got the same sort of, like, it speaks the language of, like, the modern age. Like, it, the production is very kind of retro 90s, but also modernist. So, I mean, I don't know if this is, like, an album that, like, it'd take her to whatever next level could be, who's to say. But, I don't know.

I'm glad she's around. I think she's very thoughtful about, like, being an artist. Because, like, you were saying, it's like, the, the, the shift from bands to like individuals such as like Phoebe Bridgers or Mitzki and the projection their fans put onto the artist like it, Phoebe's handled it awesomely. Like Mitzke's kind of like retreated because like and I wonder if it's, I don't know, the fact like Phoebe Bridgers grew up in L.A. that made her more amenable to this kind of attention. But you know, it's it's very interesting to see how this will play out, particularly

since it's an album that talks about her failures or what she sees perceives as her failures as being, you know, the scare quotes Julian Baker as opposed to being like the human being Julian Baker. Yeah, I think in general people need to chill out with artists a little bit. Come on.

You don't need to chill out. Listen to Julian Baker's like guttingly intense me out a little. I just mean in terms of like projecting things onto artists and engaging with them in a way that's very strange and unhealthy and actually destructive. to the artist that you love. Maybe just leave them alone, enjoy the records. You don't know who they are as people.

You only know what they signify on their record and try to keep that in mind. That's my public service announcement for today's episode. Let's pivot to Cloud Nothings. And that was a terrible segue, by the way. No, it's actually good because, like, there are a lot more, like, kind of, you know, as far as their interviews go, like, you don't really need to, like, you know, stand. Dylan Baldy to like enjoy their music. They are like the kind of like photo negative of like projecting all of your hopes and fears

onto this one artist. I think they've handled this well. So it actually is a great pivot. Yeah, I mean, Cloud Nothings, I wrote about them this week as well. And one of the things that made me want to write about them was the realization that, wow, Cloud Nothings are actually a veteran act now that have been around for more than a decade, which just blew me away a little bit. Maybe there's people who have grown up with them that wouldn't surprise them.

I mean, Dylan Baldi, who is the founder of this band, he founded this group when he was a teenager in 2009. He's still only 29 years old. So he's still a young guy. He has many records ahead of him. But on that same token, he is, in a way, this grizzled veteran of the indie rock trenches. Just to give some background on Cloud Nothings, you know, Baldi, he started out writing these, like, kind of sweet and fizzy lofi pop songs, like on the early Cloud Nothing's record. Like, I remember really liking their 2011 self-titled record, which at the time reminded me of, you know, B-thousin era guided by voices.

You know, this very melodic, almost twee-sounding record, very catchy. And then the following year they put out attack on memory, which is the big pivot point in their career. You know, they worked with Steve Albini and they embraced this heavier, more aggressive sound that was in the veins of bands like the wipers and like in utero era Nirvana, who of course also worked with Steve Albini. And they've pretty much like proceeded to go in that direction ever since. And for the past like a year and a half, they've been pretty active. I mean, pretty much since the pandemic went on, they put out a record last year called the Black Hole. understands that I liked quite a bit. It reminded me of those early cloud nothing records before Attack on Memory. And then you have the new record, The Shadow I Remember, which is also produced by

Steve Albini. It's the first record that they've done with Albini since Attack on Memory. And as you would expect, it has that aggressive but catchy Cloud Nothing sound. And it's a record I like quite a bit. This is a band, though, that, you know, we, We've talked in the past about bands that could benefit from like a really great, greatest hits album. And I wonder if Cloud Nothings are in that category, at least for the post attack on memory records. I like all their records to varying degrees.

I don't think they've ever made a bad record. I think all their albums are at least good and some of them are great. But yeah, it was just interesting to me. And I talked to Dylan about this in our story about, you know, what has it been like to essentially be this band that has never really been part of a scene in any part of its career. And he's talked about how when they first started out and started to get attention with attack on memory, they were lumped in with Chapan droids. And then they were with, they were lumped into the email scene. And like he talked about how they've done tours with the hotel year. They've

toured with the hotel year. Did you know that? Did you know that? I did not know that. Yeah, they've done too. I did not know that. Yeah, well, there you go. You can read about that in my story. And he said, you know, we don't really feel part of that either. And not knocking it, but just saying it would be disingenuous for us to, you know, claim that we're an emo band. And they've stuck around. And I feel that when I look at my Twitter feed, and this is a very anecdotal type of evidence, and maybe it doesn't really bear true in the larger world. But they do seem like a band that has been passed down to the,

the next generation of people, certainly who are interested in, like, heavier, catchier, like, indie rock or, like, emo people. I see people debating, like, what's the best Cloud Nothing's record and things like that. But, yeah, they do occupy this sort of interesting space right now, where they're totally out of step, like, with what is fashionable, but they've been able to hang on, but they're also not, like, hugely popular or successful. The thing about them is, you know, it's interesting, I don't remember of them ever being lumped into emo, like, at all. But I think in some way that they're, if, you know, if they are, like, not if, they are kind of seen as like this still, like, you know, a prominent rock band.

It's because of bands that, like, play, you know, an emo derived version of what they do. Because you had mentioned attack on memory because of Albini, you know, you. You know, it got compared to a utero. You know, Steve Albini gave that album like a real boost of credibility when I listened to that record. And I kind of was able to like tease at this in my review of this. It sounded to me like a get up kids album, like a really, really raw get up kids album. And actually, they were supposed to play with get up kids. I think that got canceled because of some reason or another.

They were going to do a show with them. And yeah, but the earliest stuff, like they actually. I remember seeing them tour with Toroie Mois. Like, they were on the same label, but that's how, like, chill some of the earliest, some of the earliest, um, uh, Cloud Nothing's albums were. I remember they played a forget you all the time and they said like, yeah, this is our most chill wave song.

Um, but, you know, like, I think with this band, I, you're right in that all of their albums are at least good. Like, they've made good to great albums. I think that I would say like here and nowhere else is another great album. but like you could easily make the argument that they'd be best served by a greatest hits album. Like I think that would be just kind of end it. Also, all their songs are like eight albums or eight songs long. Like they don't really need to be shortened.

But I think with them, they're interesting, as you said, like it's kind of like a longitudinal sort of study about like aggressive rock music and where it is in like over the past decade. because when I interviewed Dylan, it was 2017, like right before the release of Life Without Sound, which is sort of the album that, like, you know, the downward trajectory as far as, like, they're no longer, like, the A-list or whatever. And he was talking about, like, how lucky they were to be, to come up at a time when, like, like, I mean, if you read between the lines, he was basically saying, like, you know, where sites like pitchfork or stereo gun would still be interested in loud rock accent. When they put out that album, you know, Dylan being his hands off as he is, like, they released the modern act video the day after the 2016 election, which was kind of hilarious because, like, everyone was just like so super depressed.

And I remember like Tom Bryant, a stereo gun saying, it's like, well, I guess we all got a job to do and they're going to put out a goofy video. And like, you know, Dylan was like, maybe that wasn't it. Like, he just didn't realize that. And, yeah, I think that album came out the same day as the Japan Droids 3rd. album in 2017. And that was like a real tipping point for like rock music as a whole where early 2017, it's like if this can't be seen as directly addressing Donald Trump or like the political like the political issues of our time, then we just have no time for it.

And, you know, I think both those albums got kind of a raw deal. Like life without sounds a good record. It's a little more glossy. It's a bit of, you know, I don't enjoy it as much as the previous two. But yeah, I think that, like, I think we can, can we look back on early 2017? It's this like discrete point in history now as opposed to like something that's connected to the current day. Yeah, I don't know. That's an interesting point about rock music in particular being single out for not addressing Trump.

I mean, I feel at some point music critics just started retconning Trump into everything. every record ever made. And you could make the argument that this is a joyous record because it's radical joyousness that we're reacting to Trump in a counterintuitive way. Or this is a record that's depressive because it's depressive about Trump. And everything could be linked back to Trump

just in the same way that everything is being connected to COVID now. It's a very easy hook to talk about. But in terms of Cloud Nothing's just their overall career, it is interesting just to revisit their catalog and I would recommend people do that because it rules Well yeah and this is one of those bands too That um

And at least this was this was true for me that like It kind of snuck up on me that oh this band actually has an arc now They're not a band that just has put out two or three records and then they fade away You know cloud nothing's now I think they have about like six seven eight records at this point they have like a real body of work and again Dylan Baldy he's still a young guy he's going to be writing songs and putting out records for many years to come so um you know it's fascinating just to see how they've evolved and continue to evolve and they also make those like free jazz and like ambient like out like they put like him and the drummer who's by the way like in my opinion

like maybe the best drummer indie rock like uh the difference like jason garras like the difference between him and like an average drummer in cloud nothings like really makes a lot of the difference. And so, um, yeah, they, they, they just put put out so much music, like, not just cloud nothings. And I wonder if like, the black hole understands you mentioned that as like, like, that was in my, that was like a real quarantine album. Like, that was like one of the first ones that I heard as like being created with, like within quarantine conditions. Uh, they, I think Dylan said they were, they made all the guitar sounds from Logic Plugins, which, you know, awesome for him. Every time I used Logic Plugins on my computer, they sound like complete shit.

Yeah, I do, like, I don't know if like the Black Hole understands is going to be like, you know, the Cloud Nothing's album, but like, I thought that that was the direction music was going to take, you know, like, bands just kind of knocking out these albums and just like, they're just going to be like recording everything. And I don't know, maybe the years will, like, reflect on it more kindly as a historical artifact. I'm not sure. All right, we've now reached the part of the episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? So, uh, going to be very on brand here and talk about a band that, like, I bet these guys really like Cloud Nothings. They're a band called Arms Length. Uh, they're from Ontario, uh, Canada. Not from Toronto. I think they're like from the suburban part of Ontario. but I was put on to this band because they had a song called Garamon, which I was told was blowing up on emo Twitter.

I have to take people's words for that because, like, emo Twitter is a line that I have yet to cross. Like, I think that would be just kind of a point of no return for me. Like, am I willing to be a part of that milieu? But they, I heard it and it's like this song and the video, which is like, like, this song and the video, which is, kind of a VHS recording. It's so very much early 2000s, emo, like early taking back Sunday. And I just love their full earnest embrace of that style of music. And they're putting out an EP today called Everything's Nice.

They have a song, like Garamond is like the big hit and No Sleep as well. It's like, man, I sort of wish they waited to put out an album because, you know, just to kind of build their getting from like, you know, TikTok and all those, like, all the sites that like are happening outside my purview are really putting them in a position where they're like appealing to people you wouldn't quite expect. Like obviously it's like the hopeless records type crowd where it's like kind of straight up pop punk. But also like there's a little bit of like an indie take on that style of music. And there's really no like I have no idea what trajectory they'll take from here on out. Like they could get picked up by an in need.

label, they could also go that like neck deep route. But either way, if like, basically if you like the, if you like the stuff I like, you'll like arms length's new EP. So I want to talk about a band for a sad reason. The band is Akron family. And the reason I want to talk about them is that one of the band members, Miles Seton, passed away last week at the age of 41. Obviously a terrible story. Anyone who passes away at such a young age, very sad. If you're not familiar with Akron Family. This band was active from 2002 to 2013, and they were an experimental rock band in the truest sense, a band that really was unafraid to tackle a range of different kinds of music from folk to noise to jazz. They just pulled from everywhere. And when we talk about, like,

the indie jam lane of artists, artists who kind of blur the line between indie rock and the jam scene, I think Akron Family definitely belong in there. I'm a fan especially of the self-title record from 2005. And I would say that that's a good place to start. It's like relatively accessible, although there are some like pretty crazy and noisy moments on that record. The thing I really valued about this band is that they weren't afraid to fail, or at least they didn't show any fear of failure in their music.

You know, they took big swings, they tried a lot of things, and frankly, it didn't always work. You know, if you listen to their records, I think they tend to be a little spotty. But it was only because they took real risks. And I think, again, they were genuinely adventurous. And I would say that the weakest tracks on an Akron family record are still more interesting than the good songs by most artists who work in a much narrower vein.

So definitely check out Akron Family. If you haven't already, that's Akron slash family. Check out the self-titled record and then go from there. And again... Set them wild, set them free. that one, everyone is guilty. That is such a, that band has real jams to it. Like, I, I agree.

They're super adventurous in a way that, like, I feel, there's really been nothing like them ever since. Yeah. And again, rest in peace to Miles Seton. Yeah. And our condolences go to his family and friends. But, yes, pay tribute to them by listening to that band. We'd be very happy here at Indycast if you did that.

We are now done with another episode of our show. show. So thank you for listening to our reviews and hashing out trends and talking about Post Malone covering Hootie and the Blowfish. Hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll be back with more Indycast next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixedape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.