Indiecast - Deafheaven, Plus: Lorde, Arctic Monkeys, And Foxing Discourse

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

This week’s episode has Steve and Ian discussing a band that wouldn’t have fallen into the show’s purview on their last record. But the new record from San Francisco black metal heavyweights Deafheaven doesn’t sound very much like black metal at all. Instead, Infinite Granite is a genuine departure, a straight-up shoegaze record that starts the band on a completely new path.Where singer George Clark previously leveled up the intensity with his harsh vocals from previous records, Infinite Granite has him focused on melodic vocals, while the rest of the band is focused on shimmering expansive instrumentals. Plus, it’s all doused in layers of reverb very reminiscent of modern shoegaze bands like DIIV and Nothing.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Ian is is shouting out Portland shoegaze-dream-pop-college-rock hybrid Alien Boy, whose new album Don’t Know What I Am just dropped. Meanwhile, Steve is highlighting Trace Mountains, whose forthcoming album House Of Confusion is due in October.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review the latest album from Death Heaven. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? Are you feeling about 6.0 today?

You know, I've realized that there's some days where I'm only capable of, like, like, communicating in memes. Like this is how the internet's broken my brain. And I don't think anyone within my social circle will be able to like understand that. I'm just thinking of the grand theft auto. Oh shit. Here we go again. Meem where the guys like walking down the alley and look, man, I've been listening to these Lord singles.

I'm living in the light. Steve is trying to draw me into the darkness here. And so it's just it's just not going to work. this week. You know, like, I've listened to solar power, I've listened to mood ring, and sunlight to the spirit, man.

We don't need to talk about that review too closely. Are we even going to reference it directly? Are we just going to sub-tweet it? I guess maybe we'll... Oh, come on. It's the indie cast.

It's the indie cast way to just kind of like vaguely sub-tweet it. Let's sub-tweet it. I think it's funnier if we just sub-tweeted. But I just want to say it, because I tweeted about that. We're recording this actually one day earlier than we normally record. We normally record on a Thursday.

We're recording this week on a Wednesday. So the review that we're talking about just came out. And I tweeted this morning about how I feel like the new Mendoza line for Pitchfork reviews is a 6.5 because that's what the Peppa Pig album recently got. Okay, can you explain? I just want to make sure people know what the Mendoza line is. And we're not talking. There's the band of Mendoza line. Yeah, I know.

I was about to say there's probably like a small. element of our audience who like thinks of that turn of the turn of the century like kind of tweet indie pop band I mean I believe the way it's defined it's a baseball term and it means that there's a player named Mendoza I don't remember his first name but it was basically like if you I think it's Mario Mendoza if you bet below his batting average you're not in the majors and if you bat above it then you are in the majors I think that was the distinguishing thing so I think it's the Peppa Pig record is the new Mendoza line because if you're an aspiring indie phenom

and you're waiting for your record to get reviewed on pitchfork, it's like, am I going to get below the Peppa Pig record or above the Peppa Pig record? Now, the record that we're sub-tweeting, the review, the Foxing record that you love so much, that is

below the Peppa Pig line. We'll call it the Peppa Perimeter. Daddy's home, the St. Vincent record, barely squeaked over. That got a 6.7. The killer's record that we talked about last week, pressure machine that we both like a lot.

Yeah, Sam Ryder, by the way. That barely squeaked over, 6.6. So, yeah, I feel like, yeah, if you're an indie band, you're like, I feel like the Peppa Pig perimeter is going to be how you define your worth from here on out. Hey, you know what? I'm excited to see it. Do you think Lord is going to be below or above the Peppa Pig perimeter?

Because her record comes out, it's going to come out the day that this episode post. We don't have a promo of it, so we can't talk about it this week. We'll talk about it next week. The singles have not been promising, though. Oh, no, we could totally talk about, like, we could totally talk about this album because, I mean, regardless of, like, where the singles hit you, it's like, I love this album roll out. Like, I didn't think Lord can make, like, a bad move PR-wise or narrative-wise.

And, like, here we are with... I can't think of an album at this level with this level of, like, hype or this level of, you know, this level of visibility where people are, like, actually willing to entertain the possibility that it's bad as a bit. I mean, do you realize what this opens up for games? Do people really believe that? I saw Sam Donsky, who you and I both follow on Twitter, very funny guy, used to write for the ringer. He tweeted that out, and I assume that he was joking. I've seen other people say it, though. It's like, oh, it's satire.

So, like, it's like a White Lotus situation that she's satirizing, like, spa culture with these songs. I mean, I made a joke this week that this strikes me as, like, a millennial Jimmy Buffett-type record. Because she's, like, at the beach. she's at like the nail salon she's at this like weird new age spa you know I'm wondering if like Jack Antonoff put some steel drums on like

the deep cuts you know hold on like you let's I know that this past week Lord was very adamant about trying to separate like herself from Jack Antonoff well I'm just saying as the producer maybe I'm saying that she would have directed him

to put the steel drums on I'm not I'm not questioning Lord's artistic agency when it comes to putting steel drums on the deep cuts on her next record. If they're on there, I know that they'll be her call. But I don't know, this might be too strong of a word. And again, we haven't heard the whole album yet, so I don't want to judge the whole album. You know, we were speculating about the Billy Elish record, for instance, and that ended up,

I think, being better than we expected. But these singles, there's something kind of repellent about them to me. it's almost like she's writing royals without the irony at this point. It seems very like coddled, rich person, let's go have a spa day, let's have a vacation type music. And I mean, it feels like that lyrically. And also the music is very mellow and like strummy and nondescript. I don't know. It's not a promising introduction to the record. Yeah, but I just think it like, I mean, think of like what, oh, this is bad as a bit, like gives the potential for it. Like, let's suppose that when we eventually do like the War on Drugs episode, like, let's just entertain the possibility that we're just not feeling it that day that we just.

Not possible. None of us gets, none of us get sleep. I'm already calling out this hypothetical. This will never happen. The War on Drugs episode is going to be a banger. I see your point if we do a bad episode we're just we're just a satire of two 40 something guys talking about indie rock like that is our that is our out clause for like this just gives us so much freedom to like do to do whatever the heck we want on this well I think that we're already a self parody anyway so I mean that might already be true but I don't know I again I we haven't heard the whole record sometimes songs in the context of an album hit differently.

So, and look, I love melodrama. I thought that was a great record. I think, and I respect Lord, I think she's put out some really good music. But the music, the lyrics, the iconography of the singles from this record have just really hit me the wrong way. And again, it's interesting that it's now being spun

into like a White Lotus type situation, like where, oh, I'm satirizing privileged people in a tropical environment and in the privilege and and the self-absorption of those types of people. I mean, has Lord herself said that? I think she has. I think with the most recent single, she has outright said, hey, this is satire. And I guess the question becomes like, well, it becomes this age-old question of if it centers the people it's satirizing, is it still satire? if the people it's satirizing,

enjoy it? Is it still satire? Is she like Randy Newman now? I mean, she's like writing like satirical songs about like. Yeah. Yeah. Lord covering short people.

Yeah, man. This is, you know, like this is another thing that we're just going to will into existence and like be sorry that it ever happened. So, well, I'm surprised that like Phoebe Bridgers hasn't shown up yet in the Lord

video because I feel like Phoebe Bridgers. Rogers now is showing up officially in every context that we've seen her in. I mean, like, she's covering Metallica songs. She's on the Killers record. I think she wrote an essay for the upcoming reissue of the second Bunny Bear record. Unless I believe so. She's available. I saw that tweeted that might have been a joke.

So don't quote me on that. But who knows? I mean, again, Phoebe's popping up everywhere. I mean. On that Dave Grohl career path. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We want to talk about this story, which I still don't really understand.

Yeah, if we don't understand it, we absolutely have to talk about this story. Well, maybe you can explain it to me. There was this thing over the weekend where Car Seed Headrest and Bob Saggett were in a feud, apparently. Like, did you? Yeah. Like, what was going on with that? Because I guess Bob Saget was blocking all of these Car Seat Headrest fans. Not a bad idea.

But like what, do you know what was going on there? Um, okay. So like the, the one thing that I just love about this story even before like looking into it is there are just certain beefs or internet, like very, very internety stories that I see. And I just feel so completely disengaged from culture. But I know who Bob Sag it is. And I know who car seat headrest is. Yes. Um, and so apparently like back.

Like back in 2010, he, Carseed Headrest wrote a song called The Ghost of Bob Sagitt. It was, you know, and it's a reference to this web comic that has Bob Sagitt as a character. And he rhymes Bob Sagitt with, you know, a pretty predictable slur. And, but then again, it's like, you know, so this song was being talked about on Twitter. And my guess is that by. Bob Saggett, vanity searches his own name. And then, you know, he's like, well, what the heck?

And, you know, failing to see it as satire or fantasy or so forth. And, yeah, so he went ahead and apologized to everyone he's blocked over the years and car seat headrest. So, yeah. So apparently Bob Saggett, Bob Saggett was the subject of a web comic made by Car Seat Headrest's friend. and he made a song about it back when no one knew who he was. And here we are. So that's less exciting than I was hoping for, right? And this is why we always have to talk about stories before we understand that.

Well, that's okay. It makes for a better view. It makes for better listening. I think it's a good explainer for people out there because I think we all heard about some sort of Bob Seagic-Carsie had risk controversy, but none of us felt motivated enough to actually investigate what it was all about. So I'm glad that you were able to explain it. Because Will Toledo has been involved in lots of feuds over the years.

So I thought maybe it was like a new feud, but it's like an old feud. Yeah, the Ricky Eat Acid feud from, I believe, 2016, that was, I think that is a classic pre-Trump Twitter beef. Along with like the fake yacht sex tape, like the Car Seat Headrest, Ricky Eat Acid, Twitter beef are like my defining. Like, this is what you were able to be pissed off about pre-Trump. Like, this is back when not a care in the world, just a couple of indie rock stars tweeting about how each other, they thought each other's music was wet. Maybe we can bring them both on the show and have a summit and we can revisit this feud for our listeners. Yes.

I think this is the exact move that Indycast needs to do to expand our listening base. I mean, I feel like those guys have called out both of us. us in some combination of tweets at times. Yeah, I know we're just going to do, we should do an episode where we just bring every artist that's like beefed with us over the years and like, or maybe if like we do a final indie cast, that's going to be our thing. Yeah, it'll be like the last Seinfeld episode when they're in prison and all the, all the people that they've wronged have like, yeah, Patrick Stickles comes up.

Exactly. The soup Nazi and all the, all the old favorites come in. So I'm excited for this week's episode, but next week we're going to have a lot to talk about because we're going to talk about Lord. There's a big red machine record. I don't know if I can get you to talk about that. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about a big red machine record. One thing I wanted to check with you, because I'm a big Sturgle Simpson fan.

He has a record coming out. I am. Yeah, yeah. That's why all the college football writers follow me on Twitter because I like Bruce. I like Sturgle. I like Jason Isbell. Yes. But Sturgle has a new record coming out today as of this podcast being posted. Are we going to talk about that record?

Or is that so far outside your spectrum of interest that we, that I'll just have to maybe slip that into a recommendation corner. You know what? The timing is right. College football season is just around the corner. You know, Clemson, Georgia is going to happen? And like, there's always, then there's the question of like, well, is Kanye going to abandoned Mercedes-Benz Stadium before that football game happens.

So, I mean, the timing is right for me to delve into Sturgle territory, you know? Yeah. Because, I mean, you have no interest in him, really, though, right? I don't. I mean, like, I appreciate what he's doing, and I also think it's a not-for-me sort of thing. So, you know what? Like, as a participant in the greater indie-cast universe, I mean, as sad as that is to You know, I do, like, there is a IndyCatch universe that extends beyond us.

Yeah, I got to listen to it. I got to participate in the culture, Steve. Well, because there's a debate. It's not really a debate, but occasionally we get emails from people who are like, well, how are you defining indie? You know, what is indie music? It's the killers and bleachers. That's what indie is. Come on.

Well, Indy is, on this show, it's like whatever you and I are interested. That's right. I think that's how we're defining indie on this show. Pace-setters. That's not, we don't hash out trends. We set the pace. Well, you know, again, you can do, and you are all, we live in a postmodern world. You can define out there in the audience, you can define indie however you want. We're going to define indie as whatever Ian and I are interested in. And Sturgle Simpson isn't really an indie rocker, although he gets covered by indie music sites in a way that like a lot of other country

American artists aren't covered. So he's an interesting person to kind of bring into our world here. I mean, I remember that when Pitchfork wouldn't review Taylor Swift records because they never talked about country. And now that has obviously been... They did cut...

They covered Ryan Adams' cover of Sturgle Simpson's one about the aliens, right? Yeah, they will... They cover... Postmodern. I wish this would have been a better joke if I knew the actual... and title of that Sergel Simpson album. Like meta.

Meta Modern Sounds and Country Music. Yeah, I got it. Oh, yeah, that was a good call, by the way. That call aged well. Although they slammed the Ryan Adams cover. That dip below the Peppa Pig perimeter. Yeah. Oh, way below the Peppa Pig perimeter.

So let's get to our mailbag segment. And by the way, if you want to email us, we're at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Also, we started a Twitter account this week. We're at Indycast 1. And I'm doing all the tweeting so far. You haven't tweeted yet. You're going to get on that account. You're trying to draw me into the darkness, man.

Like, I got one Twitter account that I've had to really ease off on, you know, to just to bring more, to allow more light into my life. But yeah, if and when I get on that Twitter account and start doing my thing, you'll know it. Well, like, for me, like the tweets I'm doing on the Indycast account, they're for like the real heads. You know, the tweets that I think on my main account, I'm like, well, is anyone going to care or get this? I'm going to do on the Indycast account because I know the Indicast listener who actually also follows us on Twitter. Hi, Miranda. Hi, hi, Alex. Hi, Michael.

know it. They're going to get it. We can start naming the 12 of those people. Give them a shout out. Hey man. Way more than that. We have enough followers right now to almost sell out like a large hall. So, you know, like a

thousand seat hall. Like we're almost there. And my goal is to get that account to where we can play arenas. So we got we got to get to about 15,000. So we've got a ways to go. But you know what? We're going to play the clubs. We're going to do the theaters. and eventually we're going to be playing arenas.

It's my pledge to all of you today. And speaking of a band that went from clubs to arenas, we're actually doing two questions today. The first one is about a band called Arctic Monkeys. Yes, Lexington, Kentucky. Fucking shout out to Lexington, man. And Jake writes, with the news of Arctic Monkeys working on their seventh album,

which I googled after I read this letter, because I didn't hear that there was news of a new Monkees record, but there is, they're working, they're in the studio right now, apparently. How does their catalog compare to other modern rock bands? Do they pass the five album test? And I picked this question intentionally because I knew that we were going to argue about it. This is a band that you and I feel very differently about. Why don't you go first? What's your take on Arctic Monkeys and their catalog? Well, I mean, as far as whether or not they passed the five album test, I mean, they definitely have five albums.

They have six albums. They have enough albums to be a part of this test. But like here's the thing about like I don't like it's sort of strange to have a band this popular that plays rock music that I don't really feel a certain type of way about either way. Like at this point to me, they were more of like one of those and one of those TV shows that, you know, you kind of miss the first season. because you're busy doing whatever with your life.

And all of a sudden, years later, it's the thing that, like, people always, like, recap and it's, you know, it's popular. It's critically acclaimed. But it's on, like, season six. And it's just so hard to catch up and to, you know, to invest. Are they, like, Homeland or, like, The Walking Dead? Yeah, something like that. You know, now, granted, we spent, like, an entire month making a bit about how I watched all a billion, like, like, five, seasons of billions in the span of like two weeks.

That being said, I like, I bet that you look good on the dance floor back in 2006. And then, you know, the second album came out. I'm like, okay, this is just whatever. And I didn't, like, their albums would come out. I'd like a song or two, not really care too much. And then AM came out. Now, when I think we look back on the 2010s, like, this is a definitive album that I will not deny however it is it represents like maybe the zenith of one of my least favorite invented

subgenres of music which is like gq core where it's like one thing that uh you need to know about my movie slash music taste is that i the movie i've seen i've finished that i hated more than any other in the past decade is baby driver like i will like i cannot find the words to express how much I hated that movie. And Arctic monkeys seem like the kind of, like the, maybe one of the two or three bands that Baby Driver actually likes from modern times. It's stuff like Latter Day, Queens of the Stone Age, like Leon Bridges, all this stuff that's like kind of one degree of separation from Mark Ronson where they look cool, they are

cool, they're clever, and, you know, they just got so much going for them, and I cannot fucking relate to that at all. So, look, it's entirely a personal thing. It's well crafted. And yet, like, if I, to me, it's like everything that Arctic monkeys could provide, I get from Los Campesinos. And they do so in a much more, like, convincingly nerdy way. Like, I just, I, I just cannot caught into the idea of this band being, like, just so super cool. Like, it's, I need to find a way in. So before I answer Jake's question, I have to address some of Ian's points here. I just think it's interesting that you rip this band for being too cool when Do I Want to Know, which was the big song from AM, is one of the few genuinely, like, mass appeal rock songs in the last decade.

Like if you go on Spotify, that song's been streamed 1.1 billion times. That song was in a Bacardi commercial. You know, like, that's how, like, mainstream that song is. So, to me, that doesn't really jive with this idea that they're, like, this too cool for school band, because they're everywhere. They're a band that has more normie appeal, and I hate the word normie, but, like, regular person appeal than, like, a band, like, Los Campesinos, which to me are, like, the epitome of, like, occult critics band. And that's not a knock on them. Better not be. You know, they're very good at what they do.

But I'm just saying that, like, Arctic Monkeys, they're an arena. a band. Like, they're closer to cold play than they are to, you know, hip underground acts that music critics fall all over. And I'll say, too, that, like, their latest record, that it's not even that latest. It's a Tranquility Base Hotel and Casino, which I think was 2018. That is yons ago, man. That was a long time ago. You know, that record, it's not like that was a Critics Darling type record. Like, Rolling Stone, gave that two stars. I read the StereoGrum review this morning. They ripped it. Pitchfork gave it a good review, but that was the epitome of like a polarizing record. Some critics loved it. Some hated it.

To me, that says that that was a genuine departure because a lot of people didn't get it. And it's because that is like a lyrics first record. And a dramatic departure, I think, from their previous records. I'm actually curious to see what album seven is going to sound like. I imagine that it'll be closer to AM than Tranquility Base, but who knows? Maybe they'll make like a drum and bass. That I'd be interested in. So, yeah, I have much warmer feelings toward this band than you do.

Because again, you said this, that you're surprised that you don't like them because I think, like me, you have a soft spot for, like, big tent rock bands that manage to find an audience while having a distinct personality, because there's just not a lot of bands like that. And I feel like Arctic Monkeys are that kind of band. They're a band that has had a huge audience. They've appealed to just regular people, like not just music critics,

not just like hip taste makers, but like the guy in your office who only listens to rock radio. Like it's likely that he likes Arctic Monkeys too. So I think that speaks to them maybe having more of like a mass appeal than you're giving them credit for. As for the five albums test question, that's something I need to think about a little bit, more because I would say that the debut album is a classic. I think AM is a great record, along with

being an important record, as you give a credit for. I really love Tranquility Base. I do like suck it in C, which is the record before A.m. The two albums, I'm like a little unsure about are humbug and favorite worst nightmare, the second and third records, which I think are like good records. I don't know if they're great. So that would be. my only thing there. I need to think about that a little bit more. So I'm going to do a push on that, but they're definitely in the running. If they're not there, they're very close. And yeah, I just think that they're a genuinely really good band. And I'm excited to hear what they had to do next. And I like the haircuts. Is that your issues that their haircuts are like too slick looking? Like,

they look too much like 50s. Alex Turn just hasn't had an uncool day in his life. And, you know, it's just, I don't know. Maybe the next album will come out. It does sound like drum and bass or like some like kind of cornball 90s like electronic subgenre that I'm super into. But yeah, even when they made their divisive album, it was still like, oh, it sounds like, you know, Leonard Cohen or, you know, Pulp or David Bowie, which, you know, yeah, that might like dissuade the Coachella Corps people, but it's still kind of a safety net. Also, I just need to mention that this... How is it a safe you know? Like when it doesn't have any radio hits and critics are divided on it. And like, I don't see how that, even if you're going to make a case for that being, well, this is like they're catering to like the hip taste makers or for the critics.

It obviously wasn't that record because like a lot of those people didn't like it. Here, I'm going to read number one album of The Observer, number one album Q Magazine. Number two, the independent, number two, NME. Well, yeah, you're doing all the British magazines. Yeah, I guess you're right. I think that's different. Again, number two stars, Rolling Stone.

Stereo gum said that it's a bunch of non-sequiters that don't make any sense. You know, like, I mean, again, like, I think it was not, I mean, because we know, like, we've talked about records that it seems like every critic likes, okay? this isn't like the Waxahatchi record. This isn't like the Fiona Apple record. You know what I mean? Like there were a lot of people who didn't like it. And for a big time act to get polarizing reviews,

especially in this day and age, where it seems like there are records that are too big to fail, I think that speaks to how that record I think was genuinely bold in a lot of ways. And again, I think even to this day, there's a lot of people who don't like that record. I'm a fan of that record. but I don't know we'll see

I don't know and you don't like that record either right I listen to it I'm like yeah doc not for me well at any rate let's move on to our next question

shout out to Jake though and Lexington Kentucky love that love that town yeah absolutely thanks for bringing up Arctic monkeys we're gonna

we're gonna revisit them again at some point maybe like when the seventh album comes out and we can argue about Arctic monkeys some more I'll look it forward to that

can you guys do, oh sorry, this question is from Ryan and South Orange, New Jersey. Hell yeah, very indie cast type of town. And he asked, can you guys do a 2005 episode? Maybe it's just an artifact of being a 40-something, but that year is sort of dizzying to look back on. And he mentions clap your hand say, yeah, apologies to the Queen Mary by Wolf Parade, Separation Sunday by the Hold Steady, Alligator, Black Sheep Boy, Illinois,

silent alarm by Block 30. Yeah, this guy had emojis for it too. Yeah, we should post a screenshot of this on our Twitter page. It's incredible. Actually, you should do that, Ian. That should be your first tweet on our Twitter account. So much to discuss here. The albums listed above and probably others I missed.

Anyway, it would be quite a year and deserving for an entire episode. And again, that's from Ryan in South Jersey, or South Orange, New Jersey. Did we do a 2005 episode? Not on here, but Real Heads will remember. I believe Celebration Rock had a 2005 episode. That's right. I forgot about it. Because when we got this letter,

it seemed like, have we talked about this? It's like, I don't think we did on Indycast, but we did do one on Celebration Rock. That's right. One for the real heads. Oh my God.

Yeah, so you got to go into the deep cuts for that. But yeah, I mean, you and I both hold this year in high esteem. Maybe it's that we're 40-something, but yeah, I mean,

go figure that like the, year that I turned 25 is the one that I have the fondest memories of. But yeah, I mean, you know, and it's not just the indie rock from that year. It's also like Houston rap was kind of reaching its popular zenith. You know, I lived in Atlanta at that time and, you know, it was young GZ and TI and electronic music was doing really interesting things. That was also the year of Run the Road. And look, I imagine if there is like a indie cast, similar to ours that will happen in 15 years. Maybe they'll look back at like, you know, 2016 is that year.

But I don't know. I think 2005, I think a big reason why I hold it in such high regard is that it's kind of the peak of like blogging culture. And as the words blocking culture came out of my mouth, I just feel like just this tension and disgust of actually saying it. But, you know, I would say that it was a time where like music. was readily available, but not too readily available. Like, you had to kind of work to get downloads, or, you know, I still had to order the clap your hand say, yeah, album off. I think it was e-music or something like that.

It was hard. In the mail. And, yeah, so something like that. So I think it was just the way it was discussed. I think it, just the sound of it where it's kind of post-funeral in that the, you know, it was bands that were a bit unhinged. kind of orchestral, a little bit literate. It's funny because those albums, Alligator, Black Sheep Boy, Separation Sunday,

Apologies to the Queen Mary. A big reason I got into a lot of the early aughts emo bands, like The World Is or the Hotel Years, it reminded me more of 2005 indie rock than it did late 90s emo. And I think that's kind of, it kind of explains why a lot of people who are like my age. age were into those bands rather than like the 24 to 25 year old because I've talked about this a lot. It's like 23 to 20. Like there's a period of time between 20 and 30 where you just pivot super hard in indie rock if you ever liked emo and you know, this just happened to be mine. Yeah, you know, you said something a bit ago about like if like a younger person if they were going to do like their year that they were 25.

What would they do? in terms of like recent years in indie history, you know, we've talked a lot about 2013, for instance, being a pivotal year. I wonder like, maybe we should do this, talking about the year 2017, because,

oh, yeah. Like, the first year, like, post-Trump. And just like how that really shook up the audience, I feel like. Yeah. And how, and certainly the music press and how they wrote about certain things. kinds of things. I mean, we joked about this last week about like when the Japan droids record came out in January 2017 and I got ripped because it wasn't reflecting the trauma of America

upon the inauguration of this new president. You know, and it seemed like that was the filter through which so many things were discussed that year. Also, a friend of the pod, Larry. Yes, you got to mention that. Yeah. Larry Fitzmaurice. Is it Fitzmaurice or Fitzmaurice? I just call him Larry Okay But should I say Fitzmaurice? I've never had to say that name Larry Fitzmores

Fitzmores I don't fucking know Like let's ask Let's get him on the pod too That's gonna be another guy I don't know I was gonna say Maybe we should edit this part up

But maybe we'll just leave it in Like you and I debate How to pronounce his last name This will be funny to him Like when he listens to the podcast That we don't know Anyway Larry wrote a thing on a substack which you should go check out.

Last Donate of the Night is the name of his newsletter. He wrote about 2017 and all the albums that came out that year, and he was talking about it being the beginning of what he called the new emotionalism, where people were talking about trauma and their feelings and using a lot of sort of therapy speak and music. And it seems like that really is like a pivotal year. And I'd be curious to hear from someone who was just out of college and how they heard all that music.

that came out at that time. That'd be interesting to contemplate. But maybe we'll do that. We weren't just out of college. I turned 40 in 2017. I moved from Lexington, Kentucky to San Diego. That was a very pivotal year for me as well, but certainly not the kind of pivotal year that it was when I was 25.

I'd become a cold old man by that time. Well, that could be a good episode. The year that we became washed in 2017. 2017. That was the year. Not any of the years before, but that one, 2017. That's when I became washed. Absolutely. Let's get to the meat of our episode. We're going to be talking about a record called Infinite Granite by a band called Def Evan. This is an American post-metal band. They formed in 2010. They were originally a duo of singer George Clark and guitarist Carrie McCoy. Over time, they've added additional members. is a good chance that if you know this band that the record that really broke through for you was their 2013 record Sunbather.

It's the rare metal album that really had crossover appeal. Certainly with the indie press, but also with a lot of listeners who maybe don't listen to underground metal records. There was also, of course, the inevitable backlash with this record. I remember, like, I love Sunbather. It was by number one record of 2013.

I believe it was for you as well. Indeed was. I had a sunbather t-shirt that I was heckled for wearing by a metalhead once. He thought that I was a poser and that they were a poser band. And of course, he was absolutely right. I am a huge poser. I'm a proud poser in my life. The albums that DeF Heaven have put out since Sunbather, in my estimation, have been somewhat diminishing returns.

I'm curious to hear what you have to say here in a minute. it. And it's interesting because with their new record, Infinite Granite, this is the first album that I feel like that I'm the most excited about probably since Sunbather, which is going to be true sacrilege for true blue metal heads out there because this is the least metal record that they've ever made. In fact, I would say it's not a metal record at all. It's a shoegaze record through and through. It's produced by the same guy who made M83 records. I mean, that's how far afield is his. from metal. And I think it's a gorgeous record. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. You just wrote a piece for the ringer on this band. What do you think about this band in their arc and where they've ended up with this new album?

So yeah, Def Haven, you know, it's been a real journey with me in this band. It was indeed my album of the year in 2013, which was, you know, I joked like that was the year the Emo revival broke. But, you know, Dev had, The sun-bather itself is about George Clark, the lead singer, driving through San Francisco and seeing this, you know, rich woman sun-bating on her lawn and wishing he, you know, had money

and so forth. So in itself, it's extremely emo. But, you know, when you say, like, diminishing returns on the two other records, New Bermuda and Ordinary Corrupt Human Love, I thought they were awesome when I first heard them. And yet, like, when I wanted to listen to Death Heaven music, I always found myself returning to sunbather. And so I think what what what what what what what where they stood as of like let's say 2020 was a band. I was like worried I'd start taking them for granted. You know, I think like the way you talk about say beach house where they have this thing

and they do it and they're great at and they're better than all the bands that are ripping them off and yet it's so hard to be as excited about them as you were back when you first heard sunbathe. And so this is why I find infinite granite. to be the easily it's going to be the album I listen to the most except for sunbathe. Because it just goes in such a far different direction. And the producer, like, it takes a lot for me to actually get excited about an album these days when I get the advance.

And when they said, Def Heaven, it's produced by Justin Meldale Johnson, who did indeed produce M83 and also the most recent Paramore records and Jimmy World's Integrity Blues. and it's all clean vocals and all like there's no blast beats. I just get excited because any time you throw a record out into the discourse where people might actually really hate it, that's very rare. And so I just respect the hell out of them for like fully committing to the bit here. When people first heard a great mass of color, the lead single, it's like, oh, this guy sounds, his singing voice is like AFI's Davey Havoc now.

I'm like, you're saying that's like a bad thing. People are like throwing out like turnover or AFI or like slow dive. It's like, no, these are great bands. I'm like into this. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like the responses I heard actually lean more positive because I heard a lot from people that remember Sunday, they're enjoying it, but being turned off by the vocals. Like they loved the beautiful, you know, almost like symphonic guitar.

guitar overdubs and just how expansive it was. But then George Clark would start screaming and they'd get turned off. And for those people, you're definitely going to love this record because it's all the beautiful parts of Sunbatheer with none of the screaming. Now, I will say that one of the things I liked about Sunbathe was that contrast of the beauty and the ugliness. And I will say that if there's a criticism I have of Infinite Granite, is that when it's all beautiful. At times

it can feel a little monochromatic. You don't have the dynamics that you have on the other Death Heaven records, the contrast between light and dark and ugliness and beauty. It's all beauty this time. So in a way, it's like a little less interesting, I think,

but they're so good at creating, again, these guitar soundscapes. In a way that there's not a lot of bands, I think, that are making music just like this, screen and this just expansive. So it's really hard for me not to get sucked in when a band is doing that.

I remember when we talked about Sumbay there in the past, and I think you wrote about this, it's how it's so hard to, like, as great as Sumbay there is, it's so hard to, like, divvy out time to listen. Like, you have, like, it's not like a sort of thing you can just, like, kind of put on passively. You have to block out time of an hour and say, like, I'm doing sunbatheer right now. Like, this is what I'm doing. Like, you're going on a walk, and it's going to be a cathartic walk. Yeah.

Like, it is active listening, and you just cannot throw on deaf heaven whenever. But this is an album you can just kind of listen to, like, where, you know, I'm doing notes at work or I'm driving. It's like, I feel like listening to something. It's got some heft, but, like, something that, like, won't anger the other people. the car with me, I can put on death heaven now. I mean, is there something about Sunbather that

I don't want to say it failed, but I remember when that record came out, there was this feeling that, oh, there's going to be these other bands now that follow in their footsteps and that are going to have the same sort of crossover appeal. And that didn't really happen. Well, not at a there are plenty of bands that

ripped off Sunbathe to the point where... I know, but in terms of having the same sort of crossover over-appeal, I mean, like, I'm not talking about bands that sound like them, I just mean that other bands that, uh, I mean, I don't want to overstate how big that record was, but like in an indie world sense, it did achieve sort of a zeitgeist type moment. I mean, it was something that people talked about. I think much more than they would other post-metal records or black metal records. Uh, yeah. But it seems like that it didn't open the door for other bands to have a similar kind of reach. Yeah, one of our, one of our

faithful Indycast listeners, Alex, from a great, great Indycast-approved band, Infinn Island, wrote a substack, steady diet, and nothing about how in the post-sun-Bather world, like, there's been no room for any metal album to dominate the conversation the way Sun-Bather has. Like, they did a survey of album of the year's top 500 albums from the past

decade and found out that death heaven was the only non-legacy heavy act represented there. And when I look back on Sunday there now, I just think about the impossibility of a metal record being elevated to that degree. Like, nothing's even come close. Like, yeah, you had the blood incantation album, which was a big thing amongst, like, the real metal heads, but nothing that gets discussed on the level of, I don't know, like a whatever the

like a Mitzky album or like or something like say like a beach house album. I mean is it going too far to say that making an album like Infinite Granite is a is in some sense a surrender to that and saying like people aren't going to pay attention to us if we have these metal influences. So let's just go straight up pretty.

You know? Yeah. I mean it is. Is that going too far? Is there some truth to that? There's some truth to that because, you know, in my interview with the band, they talked about how they felt in 2019,

they were on tour with Baroness, who's, you know, a band that's really evolved and tweaked their sound in interesting ways over the years. They felt like, you know, we've gone pretty much as far as we can doing this thing,

which is, you know, like you were saying, I think an opinion that was somewhat shared by people. And so I think in some ways, like the deaf have, the deaf heaven discourse has just been so so active over the past eight years that maybe it wouldn't

like if this album had come out say in 2018 perhaps it would have undergone like far more divisive scrutiny but at this point people are just like you know what deaf heaven's who they are and you know this is the time to do something that really shakes things up I mean I wonder with with like with the modern metal scene if like to what degree

the insularity of that scene holds bands back. Oh, well, yeah, this is absolutely what the substack I talked about mentions. Because it does seem like I don't know if it's more intense in metal than it isn't punk or in the DIY

scene or any type of sort of niche underground scene. But there's always these credibility arguments about bands, like not living up to some standard of purity and people turning on them if they sound like a little too mainstream or if like the wrong people start liking them.

And as an outsider, that type of talk, it's so exhausting and unappealing to me. I hate it when people start talking about purity tests for artists and bands and holding them to a standard that they have to do this exact thing and if they don't do that, if they bring in some other influence or they're reaching out beyond this niche and trying to have a broader appeal, that that is some sort of betrayal. I don't know, like, that's enough to make me a pop-tomist, like that type of stuff. Like, that's when I start being like, well, maybe I'll be apoptimist now, because that sort of stuff, it's so narrowing, I think, with music.

And it's uninteresting to me. Yeah. I mean, fuck, I can't tell you how many times I see, like, the latest, you know, DIY or emo or punk discourse and things. to myself, man, life would be so much easier if I just liked, I don't know, free jazz or pop music. And I think it's also kind of bringing us full circle with one of the things that got deaf having the most criticism early on, you know, compared to the Arctic Monkeys thing, is that they thought that they were too good looking. That like George was like, oh, this guy

looks like he could be a model or something like that. Like, this band ain't real. And yeah, so I think that, like, I think we kind of have to mention that more so than like the sound, I think that was the thing that got people more pissed off than anything. It's like if, if they looked more like, like, I don't know, like 1997 Pantera, we wouldn't be having these conversations. Well, it does seem like deaf heaven has always been provocative by going against what metal bands are supposed to sound like, look like. I mean, Sunbathe there famously has a pink cover, which is, the opposite of, you know, the pitch black cover with, like, skulls and, you know, dead people on it. Like, whatever metal album cliche you want to do.

Yeah. And, yeah, and the font was, it was like something you'd see, like, in a fashion magazine. You know, very striking. Yeah, Nick Steinhardt, guitarist from Tuchet Amore, an incredible art director who has worked on Britney Spears and Pink and Tom Petty albums. You can actually buy that font for 30 bucks. Really? Yeah.

I did a lot about this. It's a bespoke typeface. Nick does one for every Deaf Heaven album. And that one in particular, the Sunda other one. I think it went in 2015, you could actually buy it for, yeah, you could actually buy it for $30. But it's funny because like the pink album, like the album cover, the last time I think of a metal album that got that much run was 2006 when Boris released an album called Pink with a pink cover. That's true. You know, we should do an episode on pink album covers. We could talk about the second Sunday Day Real Estate record, talk about Sunbather and Boris. I can't think of any others.

Yeah, I'm looking at my Twitter avatar, but that's just a screenshot from a 1975 song. Well, there you go. Yeah, and we brought it all back to the 1975. How perfect. It always does. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so album out today is from a Portland band called Alien Boy, and the album is called Don't Know What I Am. So this band might be familiar on two levels. First is that they get name dropped in Joyce Manor's The Last You Heard of Me,

where you say Sony's going to the parking lot. They're at a Portland bar called The Alibi. And they are one of the many former Tiny Engines bands. They released an album in 2018 on Tiny Engines. that's releasing great music in 2021. The name of the album, once again, is don't know who I am. And what they do is it's sort of shoegazy, sort of dream pop, sort of 80s college rock, but quasi emo just in terms of like the lyrical content and the vocals.

To me, it sounds like what would happen if like, and I mean this in the most positive way, if like Galaxy 500 and Blink 182 kind of got together. it's like that sort of unfathomable nexus of those two bands. But yeah, it's the sort of album that if like you're into any of the things I mentioned, you're going to be super into it. And also it's the sort of album that can easily fall through the cracks because it's kind of channeling a lot of music that might have been popular in, you know, 2010 or 2012.

But in a way it sounds timeless. The songs writing is great. The sound of the album is just incredible. And I think what you're going to see is, especially if you're like in, the Indycast Twitterverse. Quite a few people vouching for this one. So I'm one of them. The band I want to talk about this week is called Trace Mountains,

and this is a project from a guy named Dave Benton. He used to be in a band called Level Up. Under the Trace Mountain's name, he's put out three records. The first one I connected with was called Lost in the Country, which came out in 2020. And, you know, I feel like there's a lot of records that came out under the radar last year that were overlooked because there was a lot going on in 2020, obviously.

We weren't always focused on, like, the latest indie releases, but this is a record that has really grown on me since it came out. Like, I didn't put it on my year-end list at the end of last year, but if I were to remake it in 2021, I would put it on now. It's really nice songwriting for all my Heartland Rock lovers out there. And the reason why I'm talking about Trace Mountains now is that they just announced a new record. It's called House of Confusion.

It comes out. 22nd from Lamo Records. And they have released a new single this week. It's called America. And it's really worth checking out. It has a destroyer vibe to me almost. It sounds like a little bit like Caput-era Destroyer mixed in with, again, the usual Heartland Rock, upstate New York type influences.

So definitely go to your nearest streaming platform or to Band Camp and check out that single. and also if you haven't already, go back to Lost in the Country, the record that came out last year. Really good record. I'm in the process of exploring the other Trace Mountain records. There's two other ones before Lost in the Country, but it's a really good band. And I have a good feeling about this new album, House of Confusion.

I'm sure I'll be talking about it again once it comes out in October. I love the fact that the last album was called, like, for someone who is like the biggest war on drugs guy, lost indie wait for it country and there definitely is like a war on drugs feel to some of these songs like a

rootsier sounding war on drugs I would describe trace mountains as so yes if you like the kind of stuff I like I think you will dig this band if you haven't checked them out already we are now at the end of this episode so thank you for listening to this episode of Indycast

we'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.