Indiecast - Frank Ocean's Coachella Fail, The Scary Rise of AI Music, and Our Favorite Backyard BBQ Albums

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Indiecast talks about the biggest music news of the week, and this week the biggest music news involved Frank Ocean's disastrous appearance at Coachella, and the subsequent cancelation of his performance this weekend. Steven and Ian try to comprehend the original concept for the performance — apparently it involved an ice rink and an army of skaters? — and why Frank Ocean is the sort of artist that people love precisely because he's likely to bail on a Coachella headliner performance. (7:02)They also talked about the current status of AI music, which this week included a fake near-hit by Drake and The Weeknd and a faux-Oasis record that kinda replicated their mid-'90s prime. Ian tried to talk Steve out of having a nervous breakdown over the destructive potential of artificial intelligence replacing the human race. Was he successful? Find out! (23:17)After a brief conversation over whether 72 Seasons is an AI Metallica record — it kind of sounds like it! — the guys dove into the mailbag (32:55). A listener from Australia asked for a "yay or nay" verdict on the iconic punk band Against Me!, while an audience member from Quebec inquired about their favorite backyard barbecue music (43:10). Is it a surprise that Steven and Ian both had My Morning Jacket on their lists?In Recommendation Corner (55:45), Ian talked up Superviolet, a solo project by an ex-member of the Ohio emo band The Sidekicks, while Steven stumped for singer-songwriter Kara Jackson, whose recent LP Why Does The Earth Give Us People To Love? is a singular jazzy folk gem.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 135 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discuss Frank Ocean's disastrous stint at Coachella, the looming specter of AI music, and our favorite barbecue backyard music of all time. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He's back and healthier than ever. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? Yeah, I think last week's episode is going to go right up there with my broken foot episode in terms of indie cast lore. I don't know if, I mean, it was very obvious to the point where like my brother called me on Friday. It's like, hey, are you doing all right, man?

You kind of sounded like complete dog shit on your podcast. And yeah, it turns out that about an hour after we recorded that episode, I got my first positive COVID test in a 2023. So unbelievable. Yeah. This is your Jordan Pizza game last week. We got to get M.J. Lenderman to write a song about last week's episode and how you pulled it off. Yeah, because I was concerned about you too.

You sounded pretty ragged as the episode went on. And then, of course, yeah, you message me an hour afterward and like, yeah, I have COVID. But it sounds like your COVID was relatively uneventful. I've been like asymptomatic since Saturday. I'm still getting positive tests or whatever, but I mean, I'm just thinking of this past episode. You know how like sometimes you'll see like a viral video of like, you know, Justin Bieber or some similar pop star performing in some like far off place and they sound like just complete

ass. And then the next day you find out that the tour has been postponed for a quote unquote exhaustion or something like that. you know like not not not exactly like a frank ocean type excuse of oh broke his ankle or whatever but yeah uh i feel better i feel much better this week um and yeah the trends they just need to be hashed out we cannot let the we cannot let this shit uh sit more to the point like uh you know i've been working from home from like my day job but i mean what is you know indycas what is music writing but the ultimate work from home job yeah

I just feel slightly emasculated right now because for those indie cast loyal listeners out there, you may remember I had COVID about a year ago. I think it was April of 2022 when I had COVID.

And I canceled the episode because I had COVID. You went on, well, you didn't know you had COVID. No. You didn't feel well, but you went on. I remember the morning that we were supposed to record when I had COVID and it felt like someone

took up my brain and poured clam chowder into my skull. Like I could not put together any coherent thoughts, much less hash out trends. So I had to cancel. And I was like my worst day of COVID was the day that we recorded. After that, I was okay. And I actually worked most of my...

work during most of my COVID stint because I live in a capitalist society and also because I'm a slave to the music writing game. But you soldiered on. Again, this was your Jordan Pizza game. That's right. Episode. So, yeah, MJ Lenderman, if you're listening,

write a song, write a Rye Alt-Country rocker about Ian Cohen recording an episode of Indycast with COVID without him knowing that he had COVID. Yeah, I think that, like, we were very lucky, and that last week was more of, like, kind of a mailbag, odds and ends episode. I mean, if I, it would have been a lot more legendary if I had done it for, like, you know, a boy genius or the national, like a big heavy hitter type episode. And I just say some, like, wild ass shit, like, under the spell of COVID. But that's true. That's true.

It wasn't, yeah, the Jordan Pizza game, that was in the NBA finals. That would have been, like, St. Vincent releases a surprise album. about, like, another album about her dad going to jail for insider training. You know, and then you would have had to, you'd have to discuss that under the influence of COVID. This was like, like, yeah, last week was sort of like a, it was like a game in November or something. A game in December. Yeah, it's like Michael Jordan, perhaps, like, coming back to play, like, the Charlotte Hornets and, like, put up the laziest 30 points you've ever seen. But, I don't know, I think I brought it.

Yeah, you did. We're all proud of you. I wasn't sure if you'd want to talk about this because it's your private medical situation, but you were like, I definitely want to talk about this. And as you should, it's a great achievement to play hurt. And I think our listeners ought to know the incredible amount of effort that we put into this show. I know it just looks like we're just, you know, gibber jabbering off the top of our heads here. But we're playing through sickness, playing through injuries, playing through difficult

discourse situations. Yeah, just the fact that it's like during Coachella and like very, we've like discourse through like months where not a single album of note has come out. That's true. That's true. I mean, we started it in the heart of COVID. Right. When there was not, I want to go back to those early episodes.

Like what in the hell were we talking about in August of 2020? Like what were we even? I mean, that would have been, you know, we were probably, you know, going deep into the past at that point. Yeah, like, we missed out on like the Taman Pala record. We missed out on Punisher. We missed out on like, fetch the bull cutters.

I mean, oh my God, you want to know, like, do you want to guess what the first episode was? I'm looking at it right now. It was a deep dive into the stills, logic will break your heart. Yeah, in my dreams, it was actually 10 years of another, well,

once great Canadian band, 10 years of Arcade Fires the suburbs. Wow. That was our introductory episode? Yes, that was the first one we did. And our first one where we like tackled albums that were just released were the return of bright eyes and the killers. Oh, wow. Imploding the Mirage? You would know better than me.

Oh, those were the days. Imploding the Mirage. We should do a three-year anniversary episode on imploding the Mirage. It's a good album. So you already alluded to this. Frank Ocean coming up with a not a broken ankle

he injured his ankle apparently before last week's Coachella and had to radically remake his show apparently

and the performance by most accounts was a disaster have you actually seen video of this performance I can't say I have but I've only like read about no Sunday night

was like a really really tough time time for live streaming. Like our household, we were really trying to get involved in the Love is Blind reunion episode, which, you know, Netflix live being a disaster there and other people were trying to watch Frank Ocean. I've just, like, not seen it. And it's not because I've been, like, out of the loop, you know, recovering from COVID or working from home or what have you.

It's just seems to be really hard to come by. And I see, I just love the kind of cottage industry that this performance has brought. up. Like I saw that Pitchfork interviewed this teenager who live streamed it and Stereo guy was talking to these like hockey players, uh, that were consultants on the ice skating rink, like Frank Ocean's up there trying to be fucking Rick Wakeman in 2023. Well, yeah, well, this is what happened. So, okay, there's these two hockey players, their brothers, Dan and Chris Powers. It's like shorecy or like, uh, what's that other one, the like slap shot? Yeah, like the three brothers from, but there's only two of these guys.

And what are the brothers from Slapshot called? Man, that feels like a type of movie that you would know way better than me. Yeah, there's probably people shouting it at their iPhone right now as they're listening to this. I can't remember the name of the brothers. And I'm not going to Google it because we have other things to get to. But anyway, these two guys, they host a podcast apparently called Empty Netters. and they talked about this on their podcast, and then I think they were interviewed by people after that,

but apparently the original setup for the Frank Ocean show was this ice rink, and there were like dozens of skaters hired to skate. I don't know if Frank Ocean was going to be skating, or if you'd be like standing on a stage amidst skaters. In the fucking debt, I think we just have to like reiterate that this is happening in the California desert. Yes, exactly.

So there's this elaborate stage setup and they're, I guess they're rehearsing like for days with all these skaters. And there's like hockey players. There's like figure skaters. Just a battalion of skaters with Frank Ocean. And I'm going to read from a billboard story about this. I could read this whole story. This is like another situation like the live profile from Rolling Stone. I just wanted to read the entire story because it was so insane.

But anyway, it said the pair said that the intense rehearsals continued until the Tuesday before last week and show, which was when they claimed things began to melt down. And Dan said the wheels started to fall off after the call times for makeup and wardrobe were repeatedly rescheduled. When they eventually were shuttle to the hotel for final fittings, skates and. hand. And again, these are two hockey players. And there's fittings for the hockey players. I don't understand. So there's like costumes involved. Dan said it's a nightmare. We sit at this hotel. We run into the figure skaters. These Olympic figure skaters, mind you. And they have a disgruntled look on their faces. And they casually mentioned to us that they got a phone call that they've been cut from

the show. So at this point, the figure skaters were cut from the show. But the hockey players, like we're still in the show. You would think if this is like an artistic presentation you'd want to keep the figure skaters and not the hockey players. But anyway, that was when Dan said that they began to get word that Ocean had allegedly been in an accident that resulted in an ankle injury with rumblings

that the elusive singer was not in a good headspace, there's quotes around that, and that they don't know what's going on. And finally, this is Dan again he said just talking about because apparently there were rumors that there were problems with the ice and this guy's like no there were no problems with the ice ocean just straight up was like fuck this

I'm not doing this anymore and there's apparently like 120 people involved in this production and he was just like yeah fuck this we're not doing it anymore and I like how it's worded in the story the alleged ankle injury? Like, it reminds me of, like, when, you know, there's a playoff game and, like, the quarterback doesn't play very well. And then the next day, like, there's an Adam Schefter tweet saying, like, oh, he had a

shoulder injury that no one knew about. Bone spurs. They have to remove bones. It's always the fucking bones spurs. It's bone spurs and ACL strain. And no one ever really believes it. But there's also an unspoken thing of, like, Okay, that's PR going on.

We'll accept it. It seems like something similar here. I mean, as I said before, like, he's canceled this weekend's performance already. I mean, what's interesting about Frank Ocean, and we were talking about this before Coachella, is that there was like a widespread assumption that he might not show up at all. So there does seem to be an element here where he concocted this elaborate show, which I don't know why, by the way. Was anyone expecting Frank Ocean to do a big elaborate thing? I mean, what he ended up doing at Coachella was what I think people would have probably expected.

Like, I think he, like, sat on a stool. And there were, like, a bunch of remixes playing. DJs. I don't think he... DJs. Like, he did... I guess the bad part is that he didn't really sing that much. It was basically just playing songs over an ox cord.

Yeah. For, like, this audience of people. So, I don't know. It's interesting with Frank Ocean that he's this artist who's obviously famous enough to headline Coachella, but his music and sensibility is like the opposite of what a headliner should be. Like he makes this idiosyncratic introspective music. Like you don't want to see someone like that at a big festival or an arena. You'd want to see it in a theater.

But he's too famous to play theaters. So he's like in this weird limbo here. I don't know. What do you think about this? The thing that was interesting to me this week is that I saw a lot of people admonishing anyone who complained about how bad this performance was. And I saw those tweets way more than I saw people complaining about it. Like it was a very social media like phenomenon.

I mean, I'm sure there were people who were upset about this, but it seemed like there were more people like coming to his. defense than being upset about this. Well, we have to take into account is that, like, Coachella is always seen as this, like, kind of barometer of where, you know, the state of music is, you know, particularly by music writers, while balanced with the fact that, like, most people who write about music wouldn't go to Coachella unless you paid them. So, Coachella, you know, Coachella attendees not the most sympathetic lot.

my favorite part of this excerpt that you read is just Frank Ocean saying fuck this I'm not doing this anymore you guys aren't doing shit now that's like the only part of this whole thing which I believe at face value you know like all the other stuff seems potentially euphemistic or whatever but like I can totally think of Frank Ocean saying fuck this and you know I've been um you know I've been in a situation where I've been to a festival that Frank Ocean was supposed to play, and he canceled at the last minute. This was FIF in L.A. in 2015. And then, like, last minute, Kanye replaced him.

This was a weekend where the headliners were Kanye and Morrissey. And since it was 2015, L.A., everyone ate it the fuck up. But I saw him perform at FYF 2017. You know, this is post-blonde. And it really worked. I mean, it was him, like, solo at a piano, surrounded by, like, a, a bunch of people, including Alex G. And it really worked.

I mean, so, you know, with Frank Ocean, it's just, I don't think you can complain about, I mean, you can complain about it. But like, we have to kind of remember that, like, people, you know, buy Coachella tickets before the lineup gets announced, you know? It's like you're not going there to see Frank Ocean. You're going there for Coachella and, you know, Frank Ocean can tailor. his set towards it. And you know, it's like,

I don't care if it's like the fucking Camp Krusty thing where it's like, you know, crusty has laryngitis and a bad back so he won't be saying or doing anything. People would be fine if he was just on the stage by himself on a stool, like muttering like the Facebook story skit from Blonde, you know? The weekend, I think, did Coachella just completely by himself and, you know, that's fine. Or like a Frank Ocean hologram. It's just kind of worth thinking back to, I mean, I went to Coachella for eight consecutive years from 2018 to 2015. And, I mean, this gets into the AI discussion we're having later on.

But like, easily the most like the wild this crowd reaction, like eating this shit up was the Tupac hologram. Like it did not matter that like Tupac was, I mean, we're assuming still it was a hologram and not actually him. people don't necessarily need to see like a Beyonce in 2016 or like a daft punk in 2007 or whatever that year happened as much as people want to see a performance people want to see like they just want an event and you know like I just I just I really want to know what like goes on in Frank Ocean's mind because it's fascinating to me in the way that you know when you hear about guys like like Andrew Bynum or whatever, walking away from like an eight-figure contract in their prime. It's like, how hard could it be to just get on stage and like phone it in for an hour and a half for, you know, what is almost certainly like nine figure, not nine figure, you know, seven-figure fee.

Well, I mean, he still got paid for the first weekend. I guess. Right? I mean, I would assume he got paid for that because he showed up. He definitely did. I don't know what, I mean, he gets paid in advance before he goes on stage. I don't know if he has to give the money back, you know, because he's not doing the second weekend. I'm not sure how that works.

I mean, the thing with Frank Ocean is that part of his appeal, I think, is that he is the kind of person who would cancel on Coachella. Yes. I think that's one of the things people like about him is that he is this enigmatic figure. So in a way, unless he, you were at the festival and you paid all this money hoping to see him and are disappointed for the rest of the world

I mean this might actually burnish his legend in a weird way I'm just intrigued by this ice rink stage motif like what was I just I want to know how that was going to work and let's say

he ends up doing the ice rink motif on stage Would that have been a bigger disaster than what he actually ended up doing? I mean, I just feel like that could have been, I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where that would have been mind-blowing. We get like a Clint Mularchuk type thing where like someone gets injured and bleeds all over this. I didn't think I'd be referencing Clint Malarchuk with Frank Oshamette. This is taking us to great places. Now, I would just love to see a mock up.

I want to see the concept because I just, I mean, I've been, like, I know, there's only so much you can really do on a Coachella stage, you know. And I, I want, like, I need in the same way that we had that podcast about, like, how the CIA supposedly wrote the Scorpions Wind of Change. I will not be satisfied until we get, like, our next 10-part music documentary about, like, the planning stage, like, the, last day and the aftermath of it. This is definitely like one of our great stories of our time. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he was employing like the top 1% of figure skaters on the planets. Like, you know, this was a big hit for the figure skating community to not have this show go on. I mean, if he actually had like 120 skaters hired for this, how many figure skaters are there, like professional or, you know, Olympic level in the world?

I mean, he must have had most of them on stage. So that's another wrinkle here. Do you think Frank Ocean puts out another record in his life? I think he does, whether that's like another endless type thing, or whether it's like the follow-up to blonde. Or, I mean, it also is possible that he kind of follows the Miss Lauren Hill route of maybe doing like a live album or just bits and pieces here and there. but I mean, I think this gives us a really good, you know, view into the mindset of, I mean, and I can not say what the fuck is going on in this guy's mind by any means, but it's like, it's just, this is someone who just really doesn't want to perform live and or, and, you know, like, to make an album, like, just what comes with that.

Yeah, I think it'll happen eventually, but yeah, we're not in that space where every single year we do most anticipated albums. And like Frank Ocean's at number one, like, yeah, I would be anticipated, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear another, you know, new album from him until like 2030 or something like that. He'll be fine doing blonde and radio. He'll be fine just like kind of living in the shadows. what have you. And like, I don't fucking blame them. Yeah, I mean,

by the way, I like that you said Miss Lauren Hill. Yes. You know, that, you know, as stipulated by,

I think, her, her press release. Like, like when, I'm trying to remember when that was, but there was a press release

that was released, I think when she was headlining some tour, that instructed journalists to refer to her as Miss Lauren Hill. And I'm glad that you are paying the proper respect.

I, if I had to bet, I think, that he goes the Lauren Hill route. I don't expect, you know, like you said, who knows what he'll do? I would never say definitively, this is what Frank Ocean's going to do, because only he knows that, and he probably doesn't even know that. But if I had to bet, I would bet on him not putting out another record ever.

And just being like this mysterious figure who occasionally pops up and people get really excited and then he just goes away and then maybe he puts out like a a new fragrance or something or like a new you know NFT or whatever you like that's the thing he does like maybe opens a grilled cheese restaurant or something like that a grilled cheese pop up yeah and uh oh man so I wanted to talk to you about AI music because there were a couple interesting things that I saw this week that brought this to the fore. We've talked a little bit about this already. And AI, just in general, like, terrifies me.

I don't know why we're messing with this, because it does seem like we're either creating the thing that is going to replace all of us, or, you know, at best, it's just going to, like, screw with our minds, like, where we will not be able to comprehend or believe anything. in a very short amount of time.

But in terms of music, there was a story this week about a new AI song with Drake and the weekend that apparently got 250,000 streams very quickly before it was pulled off of streaming platforms. So already well on the way to becoming a hit before, you know, it was quashed. And then, and this is maybe more in line

with our audience. This is a much smaller deal, but there is this AI Oasis album. I don't know if you've heard this. There was this band. I could make so many like Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds jokes about AI Oasis. But I wanted to think of like the, you know, the late 90s Oasis rip-offs like embrace or whatever. Well, you could just say like standing on the shoulders of giants is a AI Oasis album that Oasis made themselves. But no, There's this British band, I forget their name, but they- Drive Shaft. Recorded these, I wish.

They recorded these like sound-alike Oasis songs that emulate their mid-90 sound. And they changed their singer's voice, so it sounds just like Liam Gallagher. And you listen to this record. And like, I remember putting it on this week. And for about five minutes, I was like, I'm enjoying this. And I feel terrible about enjoying this. Like, what in the world? And then, of course, eventually it got kind of repetitive and boring.

So I felt better about it. But it just got me thinking about the history or like the future of AI music. Because I was reading this story in Wired Magazine talking about how streaming platforms are already starting to be choked. Like with AI creative music. You know, and you see it in. with like a lot of these sleep playlists that are popular, where it's ambient music and a lot of that is being AI created. But when it comes to songs like this weekend Drake thing,

I just wonder, like, are we on the precipice of a reality where instead of like, like, you know, kicking these songs off of Spotify, like the weekend just decides, I'm going to license my voice and anyone who wants to use my voice can use it for an AI song and I get a cut of what the song is and we just have like a million new weekend songs or we have like crazy collaborations with the weekend

it's like the weekend and Janice Joplin or the weekend and like you know Gigi Allen or you know what I mean like any kind of combination that's possible and like it becomes something that is no longer just sort of like a bootleg situation

but it's something that artists actively encourage because it becomes another revenue stream. Is that something that's possible? Are we just, like next year is, are we just going to have hits where it's these like insane collaborations and like because there's so many of these songs, you know, they can't be taken off the platforms right away

and they become hits before they can be removed? I don't know. I just feel like we're on this, and this is like small potatoes. like with the AI nightmare that I think we're entering. But I just think it's fascinating and scary and stupid. You know, there's so many things with this AI thing. Am I freaking out?

Like, do you, are you interested in this at all? Well, I would be very interested to have, like, AI the weekend and AI, like, Oasis, circa B here now. Like, I want House of Balloons era AI the weekend and be here now AI Oasis, like, collaborating on like this, like, three, our Scarface type fantasy about doing cocaine or like this kind of Russian nesting doll of like weekend collaborations where it's like the weekend AI and then like an AI of the AI weekend and then an AI like just kind of keeping going down until it becomes this like multiplicity sort of

thing. But well yeah because that thing you're like this thing you're describing like it's my instinct to be to feel trepidation about this but to play devil's ed. Advocate, is there an argument to be made that that's artistically exciting on par with like what sampling was in the early days of hip hop that like this is going to be what the new generation of artists do to create like a new kind of collage music. I mean, you know, we have to be kind of positive. Is that a credible argument? Yeah, because I mean, you can't put the genie back in the bottle with this. And, you know, people who are like 16 or 17 years old are going to find ways to make it interesting. Like everything, I don't know, maybe it's like my age and like, you know, being kind of on the, you know, the tail end of my career.

It's just kind of in a state of acceptance. Like, yep, this is what it is. Well, wait, you're saying, wait, you're saying I'm on the tail end of my career of having music takes. Is this, is this what you're saying? I mean, like. You're not like, you're not like Ben Scully here. Come on. I don't know.

I've seen, when I see what like being, for some people, being a music writer in their late 40s, early 50s, is done to them, you know, look, if there still takes to be had, I'm all for it. But I think that, you know, my days of like being at the center are done. And I just, yeah, I'm just really interested to see, like, whether people's opinions about these AI songs is based on like, the quality of the AI performance or like whether it's based on someone they like. You know what I mean? Because there was like that parody Red Hot Chili Pepper song. Like what was it called? Like California Cadabra or something like that. And like people thought it was like awesome. But what happens when like people find out you can make like a pretty decent like AI

Taylor Swift song or like a, you know, AI Beyonce song or something like that? Like, you know, it's sort of like with Ticketmaster. It's like, is it a matter of just barking up the wrong tree? Yeah, I don't know. It's so early that we don't know where this is going. I mean, the fear I have is that this just sucks the marrow out of art and hollows it out. And I don't know. But again, maybe that's wrong.

Maybe there is, again, that devil's advocate argument that this is like the beginning of sampling. It's just like a different version of that. don't fully believe that because I think with sampling the difference is that people don't people know that they're not actually listening to like a James Brown record right you know they hear a James Brown drum break in the context of a new song whereas with a fake weekend Drake song people are listening to that as if it is a song by the weekend and Drake and you get into this weird sort of existential thought pattern where it's like, well, if AI can create a weekend Drake song, then what is a weekend Drake song? Does that thing even, does that cease to exist as a concept if a computer can do it and fool everyone into thinking it's an actual song?

I mean, I think the bigger question is like, this is inevitably going to lead to an AI version of Indycast. I don't think that would be that hard to do. See, and this is where I'm in favor of AI Because if we could just Well, we don't make a lot of money from this show But if we were making a lot of money from the show We didn't have to work Yeah

And it was just AI people being like Okay, we'll figure out this algorithm for the AI Indiecast Where, okay, we make a reference to an Otts era indie record We do a little talking about billions What are some other stock things that an AI That new Ice Age album, did they really deserve their 12th consecutive best new music?

Look at those clowns in Congress. You know, shit like that. Yeah, definitely program a cheap shot at Ice Age into the algorithm. Well, anyway, I'm scared of AI. I think this is something we don't understand. We're unleashing it on the world

and we're just assuming that it's not going to destroy civilization as we know it. Other than that, it seems pretty cool to me. Yeah, we might get the Frank Ocean slash Hotel Year collaboration album that nobody was asking for, but it's probably the only way we get new albums from them. You know, and this is my segue here to a different topic. We don't need to spend a lot of time on this, but it does seem like the new Metallica album, 72 seasons. This could be an AI Metallica album.

Absolutely. As far as I'm concerned. and look, I don't know why maybe we don't need to talk about Metallica because they're like the least indie rock band on the planet probably but I am interested in getting your take on them because I wrote a big piece about Metallica last week

it was one of my big list pieces where I write a long essay about a band's career and I did a deep dive into the Metallica catalog and I have to say I had a really good time listening to Metallica in writing about Metallica Metallica, I mean, they are one of the most fun bands to write about. I mean, you've got Cliff Burton's death. You have the James versus Lars dynamic where they're collaborators, but they also, like,

clearly don't like each other. You have, like, their hazing of Jason Neustead that goes on for like 15 years until he quits. You've got some kind of monster, the documentary, which is its own rich text by itself. the Lulu album with Lou Reed, all the Napster stuff, the fact that there's like a trilogy of Unforgiven songs. I don't know if you're aware of that. I've never heard the Unforgiven from... I've never heard the Unforgiven three.

I just have like memories of hearing the Unforgiven too listening to Reload on a Greyhound bus to visit my brother at Penn State with like 12 CDs and four hours each way. It's like, well, I guess I'm going to listen to Loading its entirety. Yeah. Forgiven 2. Not great. Yeah, that's the weakest of the trilogy.

Unforgiven 3, it brings it to a relatively dignified end. Still clearly inferior to the original The Unforgiven. And also, I mean, just the obscene wealth that Metallica has, like they are one of the last just like super rich rock bands. Like rich to the point where it clearly has warped brains a little bit, although I think they're more normal than they have any right to be at the same time, in a relative sense. But anyway, like this new Metallica record, did you listen to this, by the way?

I mean, I put this on the outline. And I was like, is Ian actually going to listen to this new 77-minute Metallica album? I was like, if he does, after having COVID, I mean, you still have COVID, I guess. if he's going to listen to the 77-minute Metallica album from 2023, that would be real dedication. Because I personally only dabbled in it. I have to be honest, I have not spent a lot of time. I was like, I listened to Metallica a lot for about three weeks,

and I was like, I need a little bit of a break. But did you dive into this record at all? Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of nailed it with the AI Metallica. you know, because every single out, like, you know, Latter-day Metallic album, like Death Magnetic or HardWired to Self-Distruck,

you know, you get like the real, real early lead time, like Rolling Stone review saying like, Metallica's back. And then like everyone else who actually like hears it outside of an exclusive listening party is like, yeah, it's Metallica all right.

Yeah, it's like AI Metallica. I love how, but, you know, I was a little turned off by like having the, you know, the Latin dip thong. A.E and like one of the song titles is if they're tool or whatever.

But, you know, this just, I mean, and you know, you say it's like 77 minutes long. I mean, compared to load and reload, this is basically a Joyce Manor album. With this, it's with Metallica, like, I don't think that they're capable of and again, like, I have to just

kind of qualify that, you know, I've never really been a Metallica person, even when, like, they were on MTV all the time in the early 90s with the black album, they always just seem like kind of living classic rock to me more so than like, say, Alice and Chains or Soundgarden or, you know, kind of conservative compared to like Pantera or corn.

And, you know, I'm sure I got like master of puppets and kill them all in Columbia House and listen to them. And it's like, yeah, just not for me. I'm like not great with the 80s Hesher stuff. So I think they can't make like a great Metallica album in 2023, but they can still make like interesting bad Metallica albums, which they have. I'm thinking like S&M, you know, they did that. They did St. Anger and Lulu.

I mean, if we're being honest here, like, how far, are there any other albums of that ilk where it's known for being that bad that people still talk about it to this day? I think, like, I'm more inclined to see St. Anger conversations than I am for, like, you know, ride the lightning. Yeah, I mean, I think St. Anger, which by the way, during this deep dive that I did with Metallica, I really came around on St. Anger. I actually mount a defense of St. Anger in my piece. And again, this might be a Stockholm syndrome thing. I mean, we've talked about this before, that sometimes you spend too much time with an album and you talk yourself into liking it.

Whereas sometimes it's better to just have a snap judgment that can be more honest than, you know, and this seems kind of. or intuitive, but I think sometimes, especially if you're writing about something, the more time you spend with it, the more likely you are to at least have empathy with the album, if that makes sense. Or empathy with yourself, you know? Yeah, well, it's like, you know, if you're going to spend a lot of time with something, you want to like it. So you find a paradigm for which you talk yourself into liking it. Now, having said all that, I actually do think St. Anger is an underrated record. I think there's some good songs on there. And to your point, I think what I like about that album is that it's like the one Metallica record from the 21st century where it doesn't feel like fan service.

Yeah. I feel like the other albums that they've put out are really preoccupied with this idea of like, we have to prove that we're still hard. You know, we can still play eight-minute songs that have crazy time signatures and just like barrel forward. like a pack of piranhas. And the weakness I think of a lot of these late period Metallica records is that they don't have like the sellout stuff from the Black album. You know, like I like Metallica power ballads. Like nothing else matters, I think, is definitely one of their five best songs.

I think that's a great song. And I think they should be dropping like a power ballad every now and then into these sort of non-stop riff fest. Are you trying to say they need to do like the aerosmith, like Diane Warren era like crazy and amazing? No, not that, but you know, like, no, like fade to black and welcome home sanitarium, like songs like that, which I think the great thing about that initial run of Metallica records

is their sense of dynamics. I mean, that's what they were a master of back then, that they could have these beautiful guitar passages and then turn on a dime into something that is really heavy. I mean, like Master of Puppets, that song is the perfect example of that, where it starts off really fast, and then there's like this beautiful section in the middle, and then it goes back to, you know, kicking ass at the end.

And they only kick ass now. It's only about kicking ass because there's, I think they're like 60 now. Yeah. If not 60, like upper 50s. And it's like, yeah, we have to like, you know, like, just prove that we can still do it like we did in 86. It's like the expendables. Like,

you know, I mean, the best case scenario is like you get like Metallica and Tulsa King status where, but I think that like we're giving short shrift to, you know, like we're talking about like the power ball of Metallica and then the, you know, kind of fan service Metallica.

What we're missing is just, like we did it again, Metallica, which, uh, you know, the collaboration they did with Javala, rule in Swiss beats.

I think more rap. And this is great because like, you know, this sounds like the sort of shit that AI would, like we'd only be able to accomplish through AI. It's like, yeah, let's get J'A rule. Let's get Swiss beats. Let's get Metallica. What's that kind of sound like? No, this thing actually happened

in 2002. You just got to admire Metallica's like, maybe it's just that they're too big for anyone to tell them like this is a stupid fucking idea. But like, they can do Lou. They can do St. Anger. They can do a Swiss beat song.

And I want them to do more dumb shit. Well, that's the stuff I appreciate from their later career. Like St. Anger, Lulu, the curveballs. And I think one of the things that distinguishes Metallica is that they are willing to alienate the traditional metal audience. Which, you know, even like in the load reload era, which like those records are so like padded, like overblown. so long. But you know Lars and Kirk

like making out in promo photos just to piss off James Hetfield. I appreciate that kind of stuff. You know? Whereas I think their albums actually don't take a lot of chances and they're very straightforward and they're good. I mean they still sound good

and they're a great live band too. They're still a great live band. But I don't know. It just gets a little boring for me. I kind of wish they would bring in some of those riskier moves that they did, you know, back in the aughts, you know, that's what I think is missing from this, from this record. All right, let's get to our mailbag. Thank you all for writing in.

It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. You want to read our first letter? I do. And this comes from Spencer from Newcastle, Australia. I'm assuming that's how you pronounce Newcastle. Basil in Australian. First time, long time here.

Wondering if we could get an all-ye-or-N-A episode in the future. Could be a fun take on the mailbag episode with you two discussing artists that listeners submit. I'd like to nominate against me, if so. So, great, great candidate for the yay-or-nay treatment. I'm curious what you think of this. Yeah. Well, first of all, I love this idea of doing a yay-or-nay episode, especially if we only say yay or nay and don't expand on our answer.

So it's just an hour straight. We have like 200 bands and we just yay or nay that shit for like 60 minutes straight. That could be an AI episode. That would be a really easy AI episode for us. Regarding against me, I'm yay against me. This is another case where I appreciate like the sellout era of a band. Like I'm not big.

so much on the early against me. I mean, I haven't gone deep in that era, but like the reinventing Axel Rose. Yeah. You know, like period. I'm not huge on. I tend to prefer the records where

they start to sound more like the hold steady and gaslight anthem, like new wave and white crosses. And then, of course, you get to transgender dysphoria blues, which is a landmark rock record, I think, of the early 21st century for

obvious reasons. I mean, lyrically, it is way ahead of the curve of where we are culturally. I mean, you talk about the discussion of trans issues in 2023 and how that's been mainstreamed. I mean, in 2013, that was still something that people were not talking about nearly as much as they are now. And, I mean, it's crazy that that record is 10 years ago and how much culture has changed in that time. And Laura Jane Grace, really a pioneer in terms of, you know, being a public figure who, you know, brought that conversation into areas where it had never even been brought up before. And I think musically, too, I mean, that record holds up for me.

I think that was like my favorite record of 2013. And that tour was great as well. The sidekicks opened that tour. I think we're going to bring up the sidekicks here in a little bit in Recommendation corner. But yeah, I'm yay against me. Yeah, I think like they're, they're kind of this generation gap type band for me because people who are generally into the same sort of stuff that I am, who are 10 years younger than me, like worship this band in high school, you know, or middle school. And I, I was only aware of them when spin, I think, called New Wave in 2007.

It's number one album of the year. And I just had this vague sense that people, were mad about it. I mean, are they like the last punk band to get like actual shit for signing to a major label? I really feel like that is the last time there was like an actual controversy surrounding it. And, you know, like it just sort of passed me by. You know, I kind of lumped them in with like Warped Tour type stuff, you know, or House of Blues type music. You know, and it's like, yeah, this is not where I'm at right now. But, you know, I have to say yay, if only as like a cultural vector, you know, because transgender dysphoria blues, uh, fuck my life 666, great song. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's very direct, you know, musically,

lyrically, politically, politically in a way that I feel, you know, is necessary to get its point across, but, you know, as far as an album that I want to listen to, like, it's like, it's, like, it's like kind of a record I don't need to listen to to to appreciate. And, um, it just makes me think that, like, if I had encountered this band earlier in my life, it would make me feel the way I felt in middle school when I was listening to like major label bad religion albums. Like listen to all these big words. These guys are so fucking smart. But yeah, important band, cause for good.

Will I ever listen to reinventing Axel Rose or, you know, searching for newer clarity or those other ones that I read about and the book sell out? Probably not. But yeah, I think against me, yay. Let's get to our next letter. I'm going to read this one. This comes from Jean-Paul. in Gatno, Quebec?

I'm going to say, I said that right? International episode. You're two international. Love it. Canada and Australia, those are two good Indycast markets. I feel like we get a lot of Canadians, and we get a lot of Australians writing in. So good to hear from our listeners out there.

Hi, Stephen Ian. Thanks again for the podcast. Most of the snow we had here in Quebec, or is it Quebec? Quebec. Did I say Quebec? How did we? pronounce it on that album. I think they'd probably decide Quebec in a

Pennsylvania accent. Most of the snow we had here melted last week and my family was able to have our first barbecue of the season. A perfect opportunity to play two of my favorite spring summer records of all time. Jason Colette's Idols of Exile and Here's the Being Here. Two very Canadian choices for a backyard barbecue.

What a Canadians barbecue, I wonder. Are there any like Canadian-specific sausages out there? Are they doing brats or is there like a special like Quebec sausage? Jean-Paul, we need answer. We need follow-up answers, Jean-Paul. Yeah, I'm wondering about it. Yeah, write us back, Jean-Paul, let us know what was on your grill. I'm personally curious.

Are you doing burgers? Are you doing like chicken, salmon? Again, they're like Canadian-favored sausages. I don't know. I'd be curious to find out. It got me wondering what you might both choose as your favorite backyard barbecue albums of all time. Can you do a top five? Cheers from Jean Paul.

Jean Paul, you are. See, this is like a sucking up to me question, I think. Yes. This is like totally up my alley. Because you don't barbecue, right? Because you don't have a backyard. Well, I was inspired by Jean Paul. We're actually just going to do like a remember some broken social scene guys barbecue, you know, mentioning Jason Collette.

We're going to throw on the apart. The Apostle of Hustle, we're going to throw on Cookie Duster. Kevin Drew Presents, uh, Reverie Sound Review. Yeah, we're, we're just going like straight up the entire broken social scene

extended universe. But, you know, I think this, can I just say quick. I just want to say quick, I have broken social scene, total blind spot for me.

Like, there was a recent celebration of like, you forgot it in people, the 20th anniversary of that. I have no real experience with that record at all. And I have no real experience with that record at all. And I have no. real experience with broken shows. I think I bought that record and listened to it twice and never

listened to it again. I feel totally out of step with my indie cast listeners here. I feel like this should be a big band for me and they're not at all. This sounds to me like we got like a future broken social scene episode. I mean we we also like I don't think talked about the last Feist album, but either way. I mean, yeah, as far as like barbecue albums, like this has remained like kind of theoretical to me because, I mean, ever since I moved out of like my parents' house in suburban Philadelphia, I've like lived in a series of apartment, studios and just kind of transitory places where like I've never had like my own backyard. And, you know, I think this kind of gets into to discussions about like the, you know, the Minneapolis, you know, housing market compared to

San Diego. We have friends who moved to Milwaukee from San Diego for a job and family. And like, sometimes we look on like Redfin to see what, what our condo cost here, what we'd get in Milwaukee. And yeah, it's really disheartening. But what this eventually means is that, you know, my barbecue music was kind of solidified in 2002. And just kind of given the fact that, you know, the age of our social circle, uh, not a bad idea. restrict what I listened to from, you know, 2002. So I would say that, um, uh, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, you know, even if it isn't like a chill album, like theoretically, it's still, like, for people our age, I think it kind of is a little weird enough, but like comforting enough to be like,

okay, yeah, I see where we're at. We're 40 something. This is what made us feel cool. We're at a barbecue, we're cool, this works. And similarly, is this it by the strokes? You know, it's only 30-some-odd minutes. It doesn't buy a lot of time, but that's where you bring in an outcast album. I don't think you can go wrong with like stanchonia or equimini, but stankone is the one I put on because it's got more of the popular songs. Another one, avalanches, since I left you, that's like the quote weird one that I put on, but it gets people in a good mood and Last but not least, and I get the feeling this is going to be on your list as well. You can't go wrong choosing between it still moves and at dawn, but I think it still moves

a stronger overall, although I feel like at dawn is more barbecue coated because it's got that song, Honest Man, which is their most like Skinnered rip-off type song. All right, so I'm going to cheat for this because there's a lot of backyard barbecue music that I like. Can I say quick that you living in San Diego not having a backyard is like a Twilight Zone episode to me because I live in the middle of the country. I don't have a yard for half of the year because it's covered in snow and it's freezing outside. So like my backyard barbecue time is precious to me. And it just reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode where you know, this guy loves to read and there's like an apocalypse and he can finally read all the

books that he wants and his glasses break. That's like you not having a backyard in San Diego because it's like 78. You have the perfect backyard barbecue weather all year round. Anyway, I'm going to cheat on my list because there's a lot of music that I like to play during a backyard barbecue. Number one, jam-ban bootlegs is number one. So Grateful Dead, fish, goose, widespread motherfucking panic. Whatever it is, jam-ban bootlegs, number one.

Backyard Barbecue soundtrack. Number two, wildflowers by Tom Petty. Self-explanatory. Number three, I would say the first six or seven albums by JJ Kale, perfect. Backyard Barbecue Weather, laid back, cool as hell. You listen to him and you want to drink beer immediately. Number four, my morning jacket, the albums, it still moves in Z would be my two backyard barbecue albums.

at dawn would be in the third slot. But actually, I would say Okanokos is probably my number one. Yeah, that's got it. That's a much better choice. Yeah, so Okanokos for Mine Morning Jacket. And number five, I made a playlist of oldies that used to be on like good times great oldies radio stations that don't exist anymore. You know, like the radio stations that would play songs from the 50s and 60s. So you get like this diamond ring by Gary Lewis and the Playboys.

Oh, wow. You get like, you know, give me a little sign, songs like that. You get like a green tambourine, you know, blood sweat and tears, like that kind of stuff. There's like 150 songs on there. That's a perfect backyard barbecue album. So that's my top five. So there's like, you know, 100 albums in my top five because I'm counting all those jam-bam bootlegs. But yeah, that'd be it for me for backyard barbecue.

and I want to go backyard barbecue right now, but I guess we have to do our last segment. Yeah. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? And, you know, as far as barbecue music, this is kind of cheating. I mean, if we're talking about, like, AI Indiecast, you know that, like, the new Superviolet album named Infinite Spring seems like a AI Indicast choice. for a couple reasons. First of which is, you know, the name of the album, Infinite Spring. It's April 20th. We're recording. We're talking about barbecue music. And Superviolet is a new project of Steve from the sidekicks, the band we mentioned before. Kind of a like a personification of like the indie cast ideal of, you know, being from the Midwest and being a little being a little heartland rock, being a little emo.

this one, you know, it's gotten, it's like ironically gotten more traction than, you know, the last sidekicks album, Happiness Hours. It's a little bit more like singer songwritory than their past albums, more acoustic, prettier, and just kind of really puts a focus, not just on, you know, Steve as a songwriter and a vocalist, but it takes away these expectations that I feel were put upon the sidekicks last couple of albums on epitaph where it's like, no, man, this is like the most underrated band and like their pop geniuses. And I mean, like, yeah, they're a good band. But I think in some ways, the sidekicks, like, were called underrated so often that they kind

of became a little overrated. But this album feels a lot more kind of free and loose. And, you know, I think that this is going to be a sustainable project for him. And I'm really excited to see where this goes. I think it's going to be something in the future where he builds off the confidence of maybe getting a little more press for this album than the past one got. So, yeah, this is, I mean, straight up the middle,

like hamburger grilling indie cast music. Oh, I am looking forward to checking out that album. I've heard a lot of good things. I want to talk about a record called, Why Does the Earth Give Us People to Love? And it's by this singer-songwriter named Kara Jackson. And this is an album that has been, really beguiling me this week. It's a really fascinating record.

Cara Jackson is this poet, songwriter and guitarist from Oak Park, Illinois. And when I say poet, like, she was literally the National Youth Poet Laureate for the United States from 2019 to 2020. And she wrote a book back in 2019 called Bloodstone Cowboy. So she definitely has, like, a legitimate, like a literary background that she brings to this record. And musically, this record is, you know, you could broadly describe it as folk, but it has this jazzy sensibility to it. Like, I would describe it as sort of like a Leonard Cohen record cross with like Alice Coltrane with like a little bit of like Nina Simone style vocals in there. Like her voice is really unique. She sings in a lower register and it just has like a certain

character to it that is really hard for me to pin down. It's one of the things, I'm going to use the word beguile again. It's one of the beguiling things about this record, just the way that she sings, and along with the lyrics, and just like this sort of free-floating music that exists on this record where it feels sometimes like the songs are breaking out of their structure, and yet you always feel like she knows where she's going. Like, she's in

control as airy as this record gets. It's an album that, like, frankly, I'm still, I think, discovering things about as I listen to it. There's a lot going on here. But again, I think it's one of the more interesting records that I've heard this year. And again, it's called, Why Does the Earth Give Us People to Love? The artist is Cara Jackson. Really cool record. Thank you for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.