Indiecast - Gang Of Youths Plus: Hulu's 'Pam & Tommy' And Kanye’s Antics

Episode Date: February 25, 2022

Indiecast sure does have a lot of favorite artists, but what's the most Indiecast band? It very well may be Gang Of Youths, an Australian group who have garnered a massive US following in recent years. Their new album Angel In Real Time is already an album of the year contender for Indiecast hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen, who share their thoughts (39:14) about the "real achievement" of an LP on the latest episode.Other than Gang Of Youths' new album, there's a lot that happened in music this week. Hulu's Pam & Tommy series featured a hilarious (and sadly untrue) bit about some beef between Mötley Crüe and Third Eye Blind (5:39) and Tool announced a box set reissue of their Fear Inoculum (:26). The catch? It costs $810 after tax. It's a steep price, but one that's surely affordable for the overlap of Tool fans and crypto fanatics.Of course, Indiecast would be remiss if they didn't dive into some of the drama surrounding Kanye West (14:41). The rapper's recently released Netflix documentary Jeen-Yuhs shows a mix of humility and grandiosity in his early career. The film arrives at a time when Ye's already making headlines for pestering his ex-wife Kim Kardashian over social media and talking about dropping his next album Donda 2 exclusively on his handheld stem player.In this week's Recommendation Corner (53:32), Ian shows love to UK post-rock eight-piece group Caroline, who are vaguely associated with Black Midi. Their music has shifted from an emo-adjacent sound in 2020 to more '90s-inspired post-rock. Steven shouts-out the Dublin all-women band Pillow Queens, who recently announced their sophomore album Leave The Light On.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 78 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review the new album by Gang of Youths. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He just bought the vinyl version of Fear Anaculum for $810. Ian Cohen.

You know, and I see a story like that about tools selling an album for $810. My first joke is like what tool fan has $810? Thinking, you know, thinking that like we're still in 1996 and the average tool fan is like me, like playing Golden Eye in high school and buying seed. No, man. They're like, I think there's like, I would imagine that the financial background of the average tool fan is probably higher than it is for a lot of bands. I don't know if it's like the average, but it's definitely stratified where there's like this upper crust of really, really. super rich tool fans who would probably like rather

buy this album in like crypto or something like that. It's like tool coin or something. Like I really like you know Maynard's got his his vineyards and all his other affairs. Like I think it's if it hasn't happened already maybe it's like something

happening super secretly on the tool message boards where people are only buying things in like tool related currency. Well I think what's going to happen is you know we're on verge of World War III right now. So there's going to be a nuclear winter on our horizon. And then in the new world, the currency will be tool coin. Like that will be the way in which we conduct the post-apocalypse economy. And we're going to look back on this. And on this $810 version, I think it's a box set. I don't think it's just like a record. Oh, well, that explains it.

And it's a limited edition box set of Fear Anoculum. I don't know what's in the box said. I assume a bottle of Maynard James Keenan's delicious wine. We'll probably be in there. Maybe like a snare, you know, top from one of Danny Carey's drums. I was about to say, it's like, do you know the, I'm like, of course you know the name of the drummer. Danny Carey. I know Danny Carey because I think he's a great drummer.

And I, I'm a drummer person. The drummer is often my favorite member of any band. so if I can name a member, it's usually the drummer. All right. I feel like I probably gave the most positive review of Fear and Naccombe, by the way. My review is like fairly positive. No. Did you?

There have to be like, I'm imagining like the more metal-leaning magazines people would like call this album, like the best one since, you know, Rush's 21, 12 or something like that. That's true. Yours might be the most positive mainstream one, but. Well, yeah, or in the indie rock press. I like to think that I was leading the charge for fear innoculum. Maybe my review is in the box set. Yeah. There's an NFT of my review in the box set.

Or maybe like a picture of like Maynard like wiping his ass with a print out of pitchfork one or something like that. Yeah. Look, man. Like I'm like talking myself into actually buying this thing now. Like I got to know it's in it. Well, okay. I'm thinking on some level that this was a joke that they put this out there because $810, it's such a specific dollar amount.

It wasn't like $799.99. It's like some sort of Fibonacci sequence type thing like they used to determine the the time signature of schism or something like that, you know? Like, which is an actual thing. I think they actually did that. I'm not sure if it was schism. I'm pretty sure it is, man. Like, God, yeah, we're just going like straight up tool on Indycast now.

Like, the era of Indycast is over. We are now Toolcast. We're toolcast. You know, I am a. inspired by this story, though, because the news broke this week about this vinyl box set being absurdly overpriced. Then the tool fans rose up to protest. It was like the trucker convoy of Prague Metal. They rose up to protest this box set. And I think they lowered the price because of that. Democracy works or protest work or bullying works. I don't know.

Their voices were heard. They rose up. They struck against tool, tool was checked. They're like, we'll lower the price of free anaculum. You know, I think we need to do a Patreon to raise money so we can buy this thing and talk about it on the show. Yeah, and also I think the, like this, what, like, you're actually describing, like, a universe where the world runs on tool-based currency and the people rise up to battle these overlords.

Like, that is the concept behind the next tool record. Like, we've written, we've written the plot of the next tool album. If you're listening, or Justin Chancellor or Adam Jones. Look at you. Yeah, yeah. Look at you. Just so subtly, you know, doing a little show-off move there. I know.

That's flexing on him. Yeah. And I can appreciate that you knew Justin Chancellor's name. He is the bass player. He's the bass player. And Adam Jones is the guitar player. That's correct. So if y'all are listening, like we let's link up.

Let's hash out the future together. So, Ian, I want to publicly thank you on this podcast for turning me on to my latest television slash music obsession, which is the Hulu TV series, Pam and Tommy, which I have been inhaling episodes of this show this week. And it's because you posted a video of a scene from, I guess, the previous episode. There was an episode that went live on Wednesday night, I think. Yeah. I haven't seen that one yet. So the most recent one I've seen, you took this scene. Do you want to describe this scene?

Well, first of all, should we just say that this is like a TV series about Pam, Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee. Yeah, it's a docu drama. So it's, yeah. In the style of like those Ryan Murphy shows, like the OJ. OJ. The People. Right. American crime story, impeachment.

The one with. Yeah, the one with the Monica Lewinsky thing. And the director of this series, one of the executive producers, is this guy Craig Gillespie who directed I. Tanya. Yes. And so if you saw that movie, the TV shows very much in that style. Kind of a flashy cinematic docu drama. kind of campy, but also kind of serious at the same time.

But do you want to describe the scene that you hosted? So I had not a lot of interest in those shows because I think, you know, I loved watching OJ for the people, but like as that type of, that type of show continued forward, it just seemed like an opportunity. It seemed like a lot of punching down. Like, ha, ha, ha, look at these idiots with their, and just seeing, like, famous actors with bad wigs. But, you know, I was just going about my business and my wife calls out to me, it's like,

Ian, I think you need to watch this scene and like, okay. And it's, I, what happens, like, I don't think I can do it justice by just talking about it. But what happens is that Motley crew, or specifically Tommy Lee finds out that they were knocked out of the A studio to the B studio. This is 1997 when they were about to make Generation Swine. Electra, the record label, kicked them out of A studio. They're now in the B studio. Tommy Lee finds out who's in the A studio.

And he goes there. It's like third eye blind. People are like, yeah, you can tell like they really casted that band. Well, it's not actual third eye blind, but like I believe that Stephen Jenkins is probably pissed. They didn't ask him to play himself. But a pretty good Stephen Jenkins and like the rest of the band. Kevin Kedogan and the other two guys. And yeah, and it's like.

Kevin Kedoggan, which one is Kevin? He was the guitarist who had all the good ideas and where Kit was kicked out of the band after Blue. I was impressed that they had the guy with the pony tips. Yeah, they really nailed the bassist. So, because that shows, because they could have just put anyone in there. There's not a ton of people that know what third-eye blind looks like.

But they cast actors that looked like the actual third-eye blind. And that lineup changed, I think, pretty soon after that album. Yeah. I mean... After Blue, like Stephen Jenkins just got. like a bunch of ringers to do his thing. But what happens is like Tommy Lee goes in there and he tries to like, you know, he tries the big, he tries the big league third eye blind.

And he says like, and I quote like, well, I got bad news. Like he's like, who the fuck are you guys? And they're like, we're third eye blind. And Tommy Lee says, well, I got bad news for your third high blind. And then like out of nowhere, like Nikki Six slowly starts to fade into the screen with his like arms crossed. And, you know, after that, it. It just kind of showed me like what the attitude of this show was because there are so many scenes like this, which are very fit.

Like someone did the research. This scene did not actually happen. Third Eye Blight recorded their album in San Francisco. And also I think that scene takes place in 1995. No, it says I believe it's 1997. Wasn't it? Because I thought the show takes place in 95-96, doesn't it? I don't necessarily think so.

Either way, it's... It's hard to know because it changes time frames a little bit. They play fast and loose with the actual history, which I think is really funny because it gets me involved way more than like a straight-up retelling would. Oh, absolutely. I mean, the thing about the show, I think it's legitimately good. I think it's well done. But, you know, being a music nerd, you do dissect these little moments for accuracy.

Like there's a scene in that same episode of with a third eye blind scene where Tommy Lee is at the Viper room. And they're playing Slater Kinney over the PA. And I looked it up. Like the song they're playing is called Real Man. Yeah. And that's on Slater Kinney's 1995 debut. Yes. Because again, I think that scene, it takes place in 9695 around there.

But I was just thinking like, would the Viper Room be playing like Slater Kinney? Because this is before like Dig Me Out. Dig Me Out was their, I think, real critical breakthrough. That's when you could kind of say they were mainstream. Because like the Viper Room to me, I've never been there, but based on what I know about it, it seems like I feel like they'd be playing like Stone Temple Pilots or something. Oh, absolutely. Or they'd be playing Motley Crew.

Like that's right. They're the type of place that, you know, you would go still see like quasi-haired metal bands. Like I tried to look it up and it. you know, Slater Kennedy did not play the Viper Room at that year. They did play in 1995 the Riot Girl Convention in L.A., which if you're going to, like, really fuck up with history, like, I would just love to see a scene where Motley Crew goes to the Riot Girl Convention in 1995. Like, you could make an entire bottle episode out of that. Like, they think it's, like, strippers are there or something.

They're going to go pick up some strippers. Yeah, Riot Girl. That's my favorite strip club on the Sunset Strip. Yeah, the wildest girls. One thing I think that would have been funny for that Viper Room. scene is if they would have had Adam Duritz play the bartender because Adam Duritz, he's talked about how he was a bartender at the Viper Room after the success of Mr. Jones and August and everything after. Like it was, you know, him doing the 90s rock star.

I want to be a regular person type thing. So it would have been funny that they would have like dreadlocked Adam Duritz pouring Tommy Leah drink. And no one would have, you know, 99.9% of. of viewers would have been confused about why Adam Dirtz was in the scene, but for the point one percent of us who know that he worked there, that would have been mind-blowing. It is interesting to me, I don't know if you've noticed this, but it seems like every TV show and documentary about the 90s has an element where it talks about how horrible the media

was to women. Yeah. Like that's become something, and that's a totally valid criticism. And you could see it. I mean, it's hilarious to me that like every one of these shows now has to have a scene where Jay Leno does a hacky joke. Yeah. That now just seems totally and needlessly cruel. Yeah.

I mean, because that's like an element of the show. But it just strikes me as something different than, say, shows or documentaries about the 70s and 80s, which I feel like tend to be more straightforward nostalgia exercises. Or it's like, oh, look at these clothes. Like these clothes are funny. Or like the slang was funny. Yeah. I don't, I feel like with the 90s, when people are looking back, for some reason, they're more critical of the 90s. Yeah, which is interesting because like Riot Girl was going on at the very same time.

Like there were all these things that were happening, but like the way it was being covered, yeah, lends itself to a lot of like, like, you just, it's almost like the, uh, the, in a movie where you have like the kind of dark and mysterious, like rendering of a pop song. you have like the Jay Leno monologue or just like some terrible joke on you know People magazine or something like that and I'm like imagining like in the future if there's like a Liz Fair docu drama like where she reads like the 0.0 pitch for review. Yeah. I wonder yeah totally that would be a great scene too. I hope that happens like she's uh I'm trying to think of songs from that self-titled. Why can't I? HWC, yeah. Yeah, that's the one I was trying to think of HWC. Yes. That would be the one.

Yeah, tough day for Matt LeMay. He's the guy who wrote that review and also the source tags and codes review, which, you know, I take him a little bit to task and something that comes out today. So, Matt, I love you, dude, but, you know, today's not your day. Oh, man. We should also talk about the Kanye documentary that's on Netflix, genius. A real lack of condo. Tony talk out there right now. We need to fill that void. I haven't been paying attention to the Donda 2 stuff. I mean, I know it's it's going to be on his own player, the STEM player. Okay.

And right, isn't that? Yeah, I guess it is, which is like $200, which you could buy that four times and still have $10 left over if you're like thinking about spending $810 on the fear innoculum box set. Well, I decided this weekend I'm treating myself. I'm going to buy this Don to 2 stem player. I'm going to buy the Fear Inoculum box set. I'm just going to go Hogwild with my music purchases.

But this documentary, it's being rolled out. I think there's a new installment of it every week. And I know the second part dropped on Wednesday. I haven't seen that one yet. I saw the first part. And there's critics out there

who got the promo stream to write about it so they've seen the whole thing. And it sounds like it takes a dark turn. Yeah. As you would expect as we move along. But I was really struck by the first part. First of all, I'm sucked in to this thing. I don't know how you feel about it.

But I thought, I mean, it's kind of weird because it's not just about Kanye. It's about his relationship with the guy who shot it. And there's maybe too much of him in it. Yeah. I don't really need to know as much about the guy who shot it. Yeah. as I do about Kanye. But it really is a reminder that when Kanye was focused on music, he was great.

Oh, God. You know, and I mean, I was thinking about how during the Jesus era, he had that thing where he got really angry about not being led into, like, the fashion world. Like, he wanted to be a fashion designer. And I remember feeling at that moment that, oh, this is the beginning of the end, because now he's being distracted. He's not just focused on music. And there were other things obviously before that. And I obviously didn't know where he was headed. But, man, you remember that scene in the first part where he's at Rockefeller Records?

And he's going from office to office playing All Falls Down. And he's basically auditioning for just random people in the office. And no one is taking him seriously. They're basically treating him like he's this crazy guy off the street, even though he was already a successful producer. producer at that point. I mean, this was after he had, you know, did all that stuff on the blueprint. Yeah. You know, and they still weren't sure if they wanted to give him a record deal, which seems insane in retrospect. Yeah. The part that's craziest to me is like if Rockefeller wasn't going

to give him a record deal, he was considering signing with Rockis, which imagine like, imagine like 2002 where we're like, oh yeah, remember like that guy Kanye who taught like, you know, rapping about Shrek on sound bombing too? Like, that was a funny time. Like he sub-bombs the or something like that. Well, it's a reminder that at the beginning of his career, he was slotted as, you know, I mean, the term backpack rap isn't really in vogue anymore, but he was kind of slotted in that, like, intelligent,

I'm doing air quotes. Yeah. Type, rap music, triple quest. He doesn't rap about, like, bling and, like, so forth. Like, it would be, which, you know, in a way he wasn't to a degree. But, yeah, it's, all this stuff in just in retrospect is just so fucking fascinating because like if any of the things that we see didn't happen exactly as they did like it's a real sliding doors type moment where the entirety of pop culture like doesn't happen over the past 30 years or sorry the past 20 years so I haven't seen the whole show obviously yet um I didn't get a promo stream like the critics who wrote about it but based in the reviews I've read it seems that this show, this documentary series is being structured as a tragedy, you know,

and which isn't a surprise given the turn of events in Kanye's life in the past five or so years. And I'm inclined to view his life as a tragedy in a way because I think he was so great in the odds in early 2010s and he's become an artist that I just ignore because it's, he makes me sad and depressed and also I feel on some level that I'm enabling him. I'm paying attention to him. You know, all this awful behavior that he's been doing, especially towards his ex-wife or soon-to-be-ex-wife, Kim Kardashian.

I don't know if they're, are they divorced? I think they're, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not really, I'm like as caught up on the Kanye gossip as I am on, like, the actual music, which is to say not a lot. And look, my individual choices aren't enabling him. I think it's just the world in general. I don't know if he's a tragedy so much as, like,

or a personal like cautionary tale so much as like, I don't know, like an indicator of where our culture is right now. You know, like would this be how we'd be seeing Prince if Prince existed in the social media era? Like, we never really got to find that out. But, yeah, Kanye is going to do his thing, regardless of whether or not they get covered, he gets covered by us or any other media publication or what have you. It's just like, I don't think it actually, and I don't think it takes away from like what I got out of his earlier work.

You know, some people like find it impossible to listen to like college dropout knowing where things go. I feel, I still feel the way I feel about the early stuff. So, I mean, just it, I've reached almost like a detente with Kanye where it's like, do your thing. I'm just going to listen to late registration and remember what it was like, you know, in 2005. when this was, like, I felt like I was on, like, the cutting edge of, like, where pop culture was going. Yeah, I'm the same way. I feel like Yeez is still a great record.

Maybe Full Dark Twisted Fantasy. Awesome. That's a great record. Everything up until Yeezes. And even a decent portion of Life of Pablo is essential listening, you know? Maybe because, maybe because I follow so many classic rock people, I'm just used to compartmentalizing careers, you know, where you know, the person I care about existed in this period of time and whatever happened after that, I

just block out. And I think that's happened with Kanye. But definitely fascinated by this documentary. Again, it's called Genius. It's on Netflix. We definitely recommend it. And yeah, I'm definitely sucked in and curious to see where it goes from here. I think the most interesting part about it is that Kanye doesn't really like it all that much. He wanted to edit it, which you would think that this was in existence because it can be the first thing in a while that presents Kanye in a likable way. Well, I'm sure he doesn't like how it goes later on, though. I'm guessing he likes the early...

How dare this accurately report on my life? Yeah, I mean, I would probably be horrified to see that on screen. Let's get to our mailbag. Thank you all for writing us. It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. We've gotten a lot of letters lately, so we've been doing... doing two emails per show, but that doesn't mean that we aren't looking for more.

So please keep writing us. It's always great to hear from all of you. Do you want to read our first question, Ian? Yes, yes, I do. So this one comes from Peter in Simsbury, Connecticut. I'm told that it's near Hartford. Oh, very cool. Do you really think that's cool?

I do you really think. I honestly do. We love these pockets of America, which are underserved by the trend hatching industry. So this question is about Mark Lanigan, who passed away this week at the age of 57, which is really unfortunate. You know we're big fans of all of his work here in the cast. So Peter says that I'm only, this is Peter talking, I'm only familiar with him through his work with Queens of the Stone Agent Isabel Campbell. but I expect I'll do a deep dive through his catalog in the coming week.

So this got me thinking. Are there artists whose deaths inspire you to go deeper into their catalog who subsequently became favorites of yours? My two examples are John Prine, who I was 100% unaware of before his death and who I now consider to be one of the greatest American songwriters ever. And George Harrison, who I always consider to be the third best beetle, but after his death quickly became my second favorite under Paul.

Who moved up a slide? Yeah, watch out, Ringo. He's gunned for the number one, especially since I consider all things must pass the best post-Beatles record full stop. So Peter wants to know if we have examples of our own in this phenomenon. Yes, there are, but before we get to that, I feel like we should talk a little bit about Mark Lanigan

and his life and career. If you know anything about him, you know that he lived a pretty hard life. Lots of self-abuse in his life. He wrote a great memoir that came out in 2020 called Sing Backwards and Weep. And he writes about all of the absolutely insane things that happened in his life. And it seems like for many years, he was actively, if not trying to kill himself,

he was at least indifferent about his survival. And yet his death at 57, when I saw the news, I guess that was on Wednesday, I was shocked because he had survived so much that he had that he had that. Keith Richards type thing where you feel like he's indestructible. He's going to live to be 90 because, you know, or else he would have died much, you know, sooner than he did. But a really fascinating career. I mean, obviously he was screaming trees and then he,

I think a lot of people heard about him when he was at Queens of the Stone Age. He has a big body of work, a lot of solo records. I'm a big fan of the winding sheet, which was his first solo record, came out in 1990. And a fascinating record. He does, Where Did You Sleep Last Night on that record? And Kurt Cobain sings backing vocals on it. And it is very similar to the Where Did You Sleep Last Night that's on MTV, Unplugged in New York. And just the vibe of that record, I think, really influenced what Nirvana did on that album.

It's like this sort of grunge folk. sound, very dark. Lead belly. Bluesy. And then he put out a record after that called Whiskey for the Holy Ghost, which I think... Which, that's the most Mark Lannigan possible album title. And it lives up to that album title. It is a beautiful record.

And he just made so many good album, Bubblegum is another solo record of his that I think is really great. He's a great writer, too. He wrote another book in addition to his memoir before he passed. Yeah, what a loss. I mean, it's really sad that he died. But yeah, I mean, yeah, he's just somewhat, it's like hard. When you watch the old screaming trees videos, like, nearly lost you, it's kind of hard to believe he ever looked like that and not like this, I say a hobo, like, lovingly,

like in that kind of Tom Wait sort of thing where it's like you can't imagine this person like living in a house or like whole, like, or like paying for anything other than like, you know, broken coins. Also, we got to mention Dust, which is an Indycast Hall of Fame inductee. Yeah, screaming trees. Incredible record. It was the follow-up to Sweet Oblivion. Yeah, it was not very

commercially successful, but still like a real fish out of water album in 1996 in like the time of where we were starting to see like the like grunge fading out and electronica starting to come in. But yeah, excellent album. Yeah, so there's

definitely a lot to dive into if you're just discovering Mark Lannigan. I also have to do a quick shout out to Dallas Good of the Sadie's. Dallas Good passed away recently. I think that was, I'm trying to remember when that was. I think it was after our last episode. Yeah, it was definitely, I think it was earlier this week. Yeah, earlier this week. The Sadie is another band that has a big catalog, and I feel like they're unheralded. I know a lot of people love them. Yeah. You know, Kurt Vile recently toured with them. I think like three or four years ago. And they made some albums with Nico Case.

And they always kind of would pop up occasionally. But I still feel like they didn't quite get their due as a band. And that's a band that if you haven't heard them, what a catalog. It's fantastic. I would describe them as their Canadian band, but they kind of feel like this great lost American band in a lot of ways. They play folk music, country music. There's some psychedelia in there.

There's like some surf rock. Just a kind of band that, like, you wish was playing in a bar, like a dive bar that you walk into. This is the band that you wish was on stage. Like they're the best possible version of a band like that. So shout out to the late great Dallas Good. But let's get to the question. Are there artists that you discovered because they passed away?

Yeah. And of course, you know, there are ones who, it creates this like kind of urgency to listen to their music. Not so much to like, oh, did I see it coming? But to just really understand like the depth of their catalog. And for me, like I was agnostic towards David Berman and Jason Molina their music for a while until they passed away. And it's like, okay, well, you know, now I'll, you know, I'll give this a go. And I discovered, yeah, like, they're everything that people say they were, you know, their deaths didn't hit me as hard as, you know,

know, some of their fans, like, you know, for example, like Tim from Strand of Oaks, wrote a song called JM about Jason Molina. But, yeah, I mean, I think those people are good examples of it. You know, whenever, like, a legend passes away, like, be it Prince or David Bowie, I always go back through their catalog. But as far as, like, ones I was kind of surprised by, like, with Lil Peep, particularly and Juice World, like, I don't love their music while it was happening. but with their deaths, I mean, as sad as it sounds, like it kind of cemented their place in pop culture as, you know, like where things started to shift sonically.

And so I listened to their music, tried to understand like where things were going from there. And, you know, it added a dimension of, you know, this is why for the next 20 years people will be regarding Little Peep and Juice World as these legendary figures. Yeah, I don't want to say, it validates the music or like makes it any like because there's like this ghoulish idea particularly behind like Kirk Cobain or Elliot Smith that like when people die, it kind of

elevates their music in a way that it wouldn't if they lived another 20 years. But yeah, it's really unfortunate to discover music through this way. But it also is a good learning experience as far as like what it takes to get into a way in. It's funny that you bring up little peep and juice world because I had a similar experience with that too after they passed away. it prompted me to dig deeper into their catalog. And maybe it was just because both of those people, they put out so much music when they were alive.

And when they died, it did give a sense of urgency of, okay, now I haven't, I don't want to say an excuse, but it was like a reason to dive in. I think before that there was just so much music that you could kind of block it out. It seems less intimidating to note. But that's before, like, they've released, like what it seems like 10 Juice World.

posthumous confolation since. The person I thought of immediately when I saw this question was Warren Zvon. And he's an interesting case because he died in public. He announced that he had cancer famously on the David Letterman show. And David Letterman gave him a whole episode to do an interview. And he did three musical performances. It's like one of the great late night music performances of all time. and then he ended up dying a year later.

So, and he recorded an album called The Wind that was nominated for a Grammy, and that album is about him addressing his oncoming death. So he hadn't died yet, but he was in the process of dying. And I was 24, 25 years old when this was happening. So I was aware of Werewolves of London, but I didn't really know his catalog. And it prompted me to dive in, and I'm glad because he's one of my favorite artists of all time. So that was an interesting case with Zivon. A lot of singer-songwriters that we're talking about here.

Berman, Zvon, little peep, he's a singer-songwriter. Let's get to our second question. And I'll read this one. This comes from Jordan and Detroit, the Motor City. Love Detroit. Thank you, Jordan, for writing in. Guy named Jordan from Detroit. I wonder if that's difficult at all.

It's Pistons country, man. The bad boys. Anyway, Jordan writes, I wanted to ask you guys about the aging of music, as I've heard from this very podcast and others talk about certain music not aging well, usually music in the 2000s. I want to know more about what you think qualifies music that is spoiled. Is it the lyrics? Is it the sound?

Is it the production? Or is it simply hash trends and genres shifting to different places and we collectively move on? I get our taste changed, but I randomly remember the shout out louds and put on very loud and thought, wow, this sounds like 2005, and this actually kind of slap still. So the shout out louds. Yes, good stuff. Good reference there.

So basically the question is, what is it about music from the past that causes it not to age well? What elements typically spoil, I guess, the fastest? Well, I think, you know, first off, like, wow, this sounds like 2005, and this actually kind of slaps, describes a lot of music that I currently like. so. But yeah, I think with regards to like what causes music to age well or I think this is a really eye of the beholder thing and maybe this is just, you know, online brain talking. But when I find that there's a discussion about like whether or not like music is aged well, there are two things that determine that. And the first of which is that how it aligns with the

current trends that are happening as far as like culture at large. And secondly, like how it serves the point of the person making the argument about how it's aged. Because, you know, right now, I think that music that is largely seen as aging poorly is the gadpee or however you want to call it, Obama era indie rock, like, you know, Animal Collective, Grizzly Bear, dirty projectors, et cetera. You know, less so because of like the production or, you know, the lyrics themselves, but just this veneer of being from the Obama era, which. if it's optimism.

And also, like, you know, music, you know, the music critic narrative being determined largely by a less diverse pool of people. So, you know, you think about like what's going on in 2022 with, you know, the pandemic and the possibility of World War III and, you know, everything else that's going on. It's really hard to see how that music aligns with the current day. And so I would say that, it's usually more. of like a cultural fit than anything about production or lyrics. I think production is usually the first thing to age poorly.

But, you know, I just kind of want to give a shout to, like, music that sounds dated. I don't know why that's always seen as a bad thing. No, not at all. I agree. I mean, I think that there's something to defining the sound of your era that is a really great accomplishment for an artist to achieve. And that's often the music that seems dated or is described as dated because it's so synonymous with a particular year or decade. But, you know, like,

Robert Johnson music sounds dated to the 1930s and people love it for that reason. Or like Steely Dan or Fleetwood Mac sounds very 70s and it's great for that reason. The other thing that's interesting about music that's described as dated is that that is, I think, a pretty fluid distinction. There are certain sounds that for a time feel dated and then they age back into feeling contemporary. I have a big piece running today on Up Rocks about Neil Young. I wrote about every Neil Young studio album and I ranked them. And there was a period where his 80s albums, particularly albums like Life and Landing on Water, which are more synthesizer-heavy or most infamously trans, you know,

his big electronic record. Those records were reviled in their day. People thought that they were too beholden to the sounds of the 80s. But you listen to them now, especially Life, his 1987 album, and it kind of sounds like a lot

of the music that's described as Heartland Rock now in the modern era. Like, it could kind of be like a War on Drugs sounding record. And in a way, it sounds more contemporary than, other records that he made in his career. Yeah, I remember, you know, for a long time,

the 80s in general were looked at as this horribly dated time with terrible production and people ran the other direction from it. And now, of course, the 80s, it's like this reference point that we can't get away from in pop and indie. People love the 80s, and they're less inclined to say embrace

grunge in the 90s, which in a lot of ways was a reaction to the 80s. Like when Nirvana was popular in the early 90s, the 80s were reviled. And it was like, no, this is a rar sound. We're doing this because we're reacting to the glossiness of the previous era. Right. And then it's flips at some point. And then it becomes like, well, that sounds so early 90s or that sounds so grunge. Although that's kind of come back in a way in recent years.

So again, like these things, they're changing all the time, like how they're looked at, which I think is fascinating. Yeah, but yeah, I'm just, like, I'm thinking that, like, people are trying to will an indie Slease revival, largely because it's so out of step with what's happening right now. Like, people are just trying to get in on the ground floor if, like, you know, the 2003 to 2007, like, deep V-neck American apparel vibe comes back. Yeah, I think that, because you're referring. to that New York Magazine article that came out this week, the Indies article. Oh, the vibe shift, yes. The vibe shift. And, you know, I think

what that really comes down to is that there's this old theory about culture that's a pendulum, you know, and you go to one direction, and then you go in the opposite direction as a reaction to it. And to me, like my read on that Indy Slees thing is that people are anticipating a reaction to the earnestness

of like the last several years. And the I don't want to use a term that's frequently thrown around in terms of culture and, you know, getting rid of people who say wrong things. I don't want to use that overused term, but, you know, there is a sort of stifling nature right now to a lot of cultural conversations. And maybe there's this idea that things are going to get a little naughty again. I don't know if that's true. But I don't know. I'll be curious to see if that happens.

Let's get to the meat of our episode. Yeah. Talking about gang of youths. Gang of youths. A band that is big around the world, big on this show. I feel like they're not famous at all in America, although there was a period in the late 2010s where they seemed to be ascendant and then the pandemic happened. I'm curious to see how that affects their progress. But for those who don't know, gang of use, they're a band from Australia.

they have put out two records previous to the one that they're putting out today. Their 2017 record Go Farther and Lightness, I was a huge fan of that record. I wrote a lot about that album. I guess we'll get into this. You had mixed feelings about it, but I think you came around later. It's basically a record that draws on the history of anthemic, hard exploding, uplifting indie rock and alternative rock from the past four. years. I mean, in a way, I feel like that record

synthesizes everything from the Joshua Tree to the Nationals Boxer, to funeral, to, you name it, all the big kind of heart-busting records from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, on their new

record out today called Angel in Real Time, I wrote about this in my review, you know, if Go Farther Enlightenus was their version of the Joshua Tree, this feels like their version of Octune Baby, a record that is employing so many different sounds. I mean, you've got a lot of dance music on this record. You've got sampled voices from the Pacific Islands, because that's a part of the narrative of this album.

Dave, the lead singer, dealing with the death of his father, and also discovering that he had a family that he didn't know about. So very heavy subject matter. Synthesizing all these sounds and really creating, I think, one of the biggest sounding records that come out of rock music, in the past few years. I wrote this in my review. I don't know if this is the best album of the year. I mean, I think it's in the running for me anyway, but it's definitely the most album of the year. There's a lot to chew on on this record. I'm not sure exactly how you feel about it, but I feel like this is the kind of record that you and I want to embrace. Yeah, Gang of Youth is an extremely indie-cast band, you know, not to be too self-serving here, but I interviewed Dave back in

2018. He would talk about like how the monitor was a huge deal for him. Boxer was a huge deal. Like he was in tears when Japan droids came to Australia and they passed on Gang of Youths as an opening band. He also really loved like Thursday and Tushé Amore and whatnot. And also he seemed to know an unusual amount about University of Georgia football. There's a lot of sports references on this album, by the way. Like Daniel Ricardo, the F1 racer, he was like one of the people who like big up the band back in like 2015. And he gets like a shout out on this album, a lot of rugby, a lot of soccer references. And like as you were alluding to earlier, first time I heard, what can I do with the fire

goes out and the rest of that record? I fucking hated it. Like I thought it was, it's like one of those situations where it feels so catered to your interest that you have to distrust it a little. It just seemed like a bit like over the top and I kind of like thought in my head like, oh, This is kind of like airborne toxic of that in a way. That opinion is not aged well for me. I ended up loving it.

When it comes down to like discussing how music is aged, to me it was so out of step with everything that was happening in 2017 with like kind of the changing of the guard of 2010's indie rock and a lot of bands like going for something more small and intimate, this blown out 70-some-odd minute, eight, like eight-minute song, big string section album. I'm like it just won me over just by how I don't know how contrary it was and you know I saw them perform in a 250 cap room in LA and it just is like how is like you want to see bands play bigger rooms because you think oh they should be more popular like this band can scale up like they can play any venue and fill it so you know it was kind of a bummer that they took that took

as long as they did to follow things up and I'm you know just curious. how this will be received, you know, with the gap in time. Yeah, it's a curious situation with this band because you listen to this record and you feel like, if you didn't know anything else about this band, you would assume, this is like the biggest band in the world because it, not only does it sound big, it feels like an expensive record. Yeah, very expensive. And I know that, like, they venture to several countries to make this record.

I think they went to Hungary to record, like a 42-piece orchestra. for this album. They, you know, recorded and re-recorded at three different times, you know, trying to get, like, the right sound. I mean, I think Dave is a pretty big perfectionist with his records. So you just feel like, oh, this is like the new U-2. And there's certainly parts of the world, like, where they are, I think, like, one of the biggest young rock bands. And they've made inroads in America. I know that they get a lot of airplay, for instance, on, like, NPR-type radio.

stations. Here in Minneapolis, I think that they're a big band on the current. That's like the local version of Minnesota Public Radio. So they do well there. They were signed to Warner Brothers in 2018. Yeah, that's a big part of it. But even before that, though, like the Go Father Enlighteness was getting a lot of support, I think. Yeah, they won a lot of Australian Grammys. Yes. But for the most part, I mean, I feel like the American press still treats them as a cult act, if they had right about them at all. They acknowledge them at all. Yeah, Go Farther Enlighteness was like not covered by, like, besides you and I, I don't know too many people who covered it. I mean, I know Greg Kot talked about it.

I mean, there's some other critics, but, you know, like the big indie sides, like Pitchfork, I don't think reviewed it. Stereo gum didn't talk about it. I'm curious to see what kind of coverage this album gets. I mean, it's a bit of a mixed blessing because my suspicion is that this is not the kind of band that Pitchfork is going to embrace, for instance. Probably not, to be honest with. you. Like I actually talked about that in the Stereo gum interview I did, which came out about a year after the record, which is that like, you know, Dave, they're a band that like probably read it a whole bunch, you know, given the music they're into. It's like if people knew more about this band, they would probably reflexively hate it because it's, you know, emblematic of a, you know, to go back to our how things have aged conversation. It just seems like a transmission from a time when indie bands wanted to play like, you know, Coachella, like that was. was what they wanted to do, like post-Arcade Fire. Like, this is what they were gunning for.

Or even... And just the earnestness of it all can be a little off-putting, the expensiveness of it. There's a lot of you two in it. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, they've been called the Ted Lasso of rock music, which... Yeah, well, someone tweeted that once,

and Dave was talked about that in interviews. I thought that was Dave Grohl. I guess there's probably many Ted Lasso's of music but you know and I think a fan actually called them Ted Lasso of music so I could see them being polarizing

in that kind of way but I mean there's something about their music that to me it isn't even indie rock it is more of like a 90s type sensibility to it on this record especially and I think Dave has talked about this being a reference point talking about like 90s brick pop there's a song on the record called Spirit Boy

that seems deliberately pitched in that kind of style. But I think most of the record, it feels like a band trying to write Bittersweet Symphony on every song. And I mean that as a compliment, because I think Bittersweet Symphony is like one of the greatest songs ever made. Or Champaign Supernova, you know, like just these grand, beautiful songs. I think it's more, do you know what I mean?

There's like, and I say this with love, like, a little bit of B here now as far as like how much like production is going on here. Well, you know, using like the samples, of voices, the choral voices from places like the Cook Islands. A lot of these samples come from like the late 70s because people like visiting indigenous populations

and recording them. And the way that's integrated with all the big string sections and the break beats and the big choruses. I mean, I think it's like a personally, I mean, I love this kind of production. I think it's like a pretty stunning sounding record. And that's part of what I luxuriate in when I listen to this album.

And I have to say that at a time where I feel like a lot of bands, even bands I like, feel kind of narrowly pitched into like a sonic piece of real estate, it's refreshing to hear a record with this many ideas and just willing to go out from here to the moon. you know so I really love the record for that reason so yeah I don't know it's interesting with this band I feel like this is a band I've talked about a lot and I've found that when I recommend them to people that more often than not

they get into them I mean I do think that there is an audience for this kind of band because there's not really a lot of bands doing this kind of thing especially at this level it does feel like they should be playing arenas and maybe they will be but you can

You can see them now in a 250-person club, and it feels like seeing spring scene in the East Street band on the Born in the USA tour. It has that kind of massive power and sound, but you're going to see them in this very small space. Yeah. And it's just exactly like you're saying. Like, if people were to, if more people were, like, presented with this kind of music, like, I think it's the sort of, like, so much this reminds me of the late 90s, particularly, like, the combination of, like, break beats and. samples. It's very much of that like cash flush CD era where bands were making like 70 minute records and spending like a ton of money. It's like, you know, it's like this is our globe trotting album. We're really getting into electronic or whatever. And yeah, like this is the sort of band like

if, like I could just envision like a video like a really well crafted video on MTV taking them to the stratosphere or something like that. It's almost like you wish they were from a different times where they had like a different sort of music industry that could serve their purposes. better. But yeah, I mean, I think this is a band where, like, the record's good enough to take them to the new level. It's just a matter of, like, whether or not they can find their audience. Because I don't think the, you know, the critical realm is going to be overly kind to

this record. I think it's not going to convince people who are not into it. Because, I mean, I think a lot of the qualities that were divisive about them are amplified here, like the earnestness. Like, I mean, like, there are songs that are very literally about, like, him. finding out he has, like brothers, for example. Like, I'm curious what you think of that song. I mean, I love that song.

And as you said, it's him writing directly about finding out that his father had another family that he never knew about. So he's singing about meeting his brothers. And it is a departure from the rest of the record because it's just him and piano. It's not the sort of grandness that you get on the rest of the record. Yeah, I will say about gang abuse, and we haven't really talked about. about the lyrical aspect of this band, I think Dave's actually a really good writer. And I think that sets them apart a little bit from the oasises of the world, for instance,

where the lyrics are just garbage. They're not garbage, but they're like kind of a texture, let's call it. Well, they're great tasting garbage, I would say. Their lyrics. But, you know, Dave, I think actually puts a lot of thought into the lyrics, and they're really well done. And usually there's words that I've never heard of before that I have to look up if I'm reading the lyric sheet.

I learned what tenter hook means from this album. But, you know, there's some of like the cultural issues that he's exploring on this record. I feel like that's something that if people are going to write about this album, I mean, I think that could be a way in.

Absolutely. You know, this isn't just like a white guy indie rock band singing, you know, big songs. I mean, there is a very distinct in unique point of view being expressed on this record that hopefully... It doesn't get covered a lot. Not at all. Yeah, and I think that's going to be an interesting contrast

of like, it sounds like this big, for lack of a better term, white guy, you know, arena rock music dealing with very distinct underappreciated cultural issues. Yes, I don't know. Give this record a chance. I feel like we're begging people to listen to this band. We shouldn't have to. They're a really great band. and yeah, they are like an indie,

they're one of like the indie cast mascots. I think like them while... We haven't even talked about how Adam Duritz is on this album. Adam Duritz coming up again in this episode. Second appearance for Adam. Yeah, he's on the record. So yeah, that just layers on another indie cast element

on this record. But if you, I think it's fair to say, if you like our show, if you, you know, listen to us because you like our tastes. If you don't know this band, check them out because I think you will like them. Yeah.

And I also think this, this is one of the rare times where I could say this album should be a movie. Like the thing, the stuff that like happens with his father is like, I would, I would read like a book about this. I would read a movie about this or see a movie about this. I hope this becomes like a phenomenon that inspires maybe even a Pam and Tommy type dockey drama in the future. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so a record that comes out today that I've been looking forward to for, I would say like the past two years is a band called Caroline.

They are an eight piece. You know, when a band's got eight people in it, and I'm probably going to be into it. I would describe them as like kind of like a post rock band from the UK. They have kind of a vague association with bands like Black Middy. They're on rough trade. They have a producer that they share with them. And I heard about them back in 2020. They had a single called Dark Blue that came out.

And it was pitched to me as like there's kind of like Appalachian folk, but also Midwest emo and stuff like the 33 and Godspee you Black Emperor. It's like, okay, sold. And they kept releasing singles throughout 2020 and 21 that were really evocative, you know, usually like six to seven minutes, quiet, minimal, but like also very, very, very, very, you know, loud when they want to be. And, you know, I figured, I don't know what's going to happen with this band. How do you have an eight-person instrumental band during the pandemic era? But they finally put together everything as an album. It's self-titled. It's out today. And it's, it's a great record in itself,

if you like a lot of those bands from, you know, the 90s, whether we're talking about, like, you know, the dirty three as I talked about before. There's also some like late periods. and mineral in there, I'd say, or aerogram, which is an Indycast Hall of Fame nominee for the future. But what strikes me about this record is that I think of it along the lines of Black Country New Road, where there might be kind of a shift of UK post-punk post-rock away from like that sardonic, the fall, like absurdist sort of sound to something a little more overtly and nakedly emotional.

I really hope that. That's also true of like Death Crash, which we talked about in a previous episode. Yeah, I think that this album, it sounds like nothing else out there. And if any of the bands I talked about are ones that you're like, oh yeah, what happened to them? This is going to hit your need. So if you like just straight up emo post-rock, this is for you. So the band I want to talk about is called Pillow Queens. I've actually talked about this band in Recommendation Corner before in connection to their 2020

record called In Waiting. I was late on that record, about a year late, came to it because Wild Pink, speaking of them, covered one of their songs, and that brought me into the record. And I just thought, oh, this is just exactly what I like. Just really, again, in that gang of use vein, uplifting anthemic guitar rock, just beautiful songs. And I don't want to be behind the times again. So I want to give a heads up to everyone about their next record coming out on April 1st, it's called Leave the Light on. And I think it's even better than in-waiting. It's a really good record.

You know, again, I feel like I keep using the same words to describe music in this episode. But this is just like a really melodic, straightforward rock band. You know, there's nothing, I guess, like, they're not redesigning the wheel in any kind of way. But I just like this band a lot. And I think that our listeners would get into them. I feel like they're starting to get some play out there. but not enough. So I want to give a push to them.

Again, they're called Pillow Queens. You can hear some of the record already on streaming platforms. Again, the whole record comes out in about a month on April 1st. But I would again recommend going back to in waiting. I think that's a really good record. It seems like the kind of album that is going to grow in estimation as the years go along because it just feels like the kind of record that you can just play over and over again and not get sick of it.

So pillow cleanses. Sort of like Wild Pink. Sort of like Wild Pink, exactly. I feel like we also should shout out the string machine record. Oh, yeah, that again. Yeah, which we talked about last week, but it's actually out today. Yes. So listen to that.

Great album, speaking of like seven to eight people bands who are, you know, Obama era reflective, questions about like how it fits with the current narrative. Great fucking record. Yes. Yes, that will be an indie cat. listener favorite. I have a feeling. So definitely check out that album. We have now reached the end of our episode. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie

mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.