Indiecast - Illuminati Hotties + Strand Of Oaks

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

October is upon us, and with it comes new records that are perfectly timed to soundtrack the changing of the leaves. This week, Steve and Ian are digging into Let Me Have One More, the anticipated new record from Illuminati Hotties, as well as Strand Of Oaks’ In Heaven. Both artists represent relatively opposite ends of the Indiecast-core spectrum — Illuminati Hotties have perfected a brand of irreverent, anti-capitalist alternative rock while Tim Showalter’s music style tends to lean into more atmospheric soundscapes and a folk-forward songwriting style.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Ian is getting ready for fall with True Love, the new album from vibey Austin duo Hovvdy. Steve is plugging his recent interview with BJ Burton, the producer who has had a hand in crafting some of the best and most influential albums of the last decade (think: Yeezus, Bon Iver’s 22, A Million, and many more).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 59 on Spotify below, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts here. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talked about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about albums by Illuminati Hotties and Strand of Oaks. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, the winner of the Polaris Prize, Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? Just starting right off the bat, like rubbing this disappointment in my face.

You know, I had made a five-year plan in 2016 that I was going to be the first person to review Jules Santana and Dead Prez albums at Pitchfork before going on to win Canada's most prestigious music award. And, you know, Cadence Weapon, aka Cadence Weapon, beat me to it. So, I got to give my congratulations where it's due. Raleigh, a writer for Pitchfork? Like an old school, an old school pitchfork writer. Like 20 years ago, like early 2000. Yeah.

And the thing I appreciate about him is that like a lot of the, you know, music writers that go on to make music themselves or, you know, kind of more like cerebral or like high minded or whatever. And Raleigh is all of those things. But like if you look back at some of his reviews and that time, it's like the stuff that you can never get away with right now. Like dead wrong reviews, but also like hilarious. You got to find the one he did on Dead Prez. I mean, are we going to get Raleigh canceled here after he won this prestigious award? Are the voters of the Plaris Prize going to go look at the pitchfork archives and say, we've made a terrible mistake by honoring Raleigh?

I think every four months I bring up the fact that he once called Juell Santanas, Dipset Santas Town, the worst song of the year that year being 2003, which for my money is the most wrong opinion ever published on Pitchfork. and that includes the original Bleed American and Clarity Reviews, so. Well, shout out to Raleigh. We're proud. Do you know Raleigh? I don't know him.

I may have, like, interacted, like, once or twice about, like, death jokes stuff on Twitter. But, no, I don't really know him personally. But shout to him. Have you listened to, I'm familiar with Cadence Weapon as a name, but I don't think I've ever listened to Caden's. Yeah, I mean, it's good stuff. It's like, he's had, like, a very interesting. career. And the fact that, like, he's been doing this for a very, very long time. You know, he's... Wait, what kind of music is? Oh, it's hip hop. It's, it's more like

indie-minded hip-hop, like the sort of thing that, you know, I mean this with all due respect that, like, the kind of stuff that was, you know, kind of big, would have been big at Pitchfork in like, you know, the mid to late 2000s. And he's been doing this since, like, 2005. I think this most recent album, the one that parallel world was his fifth album. His first album was called Breaking K-Fabe, which I think can kind of give you the indication of where, you know,

like what his, you know, what his milieu is lyrically, or at least it was back then. Yeah. Also, he's been on like Liar's remixes, and Jacques Green and buck 65, so very much indie hip-hop.

And is he Canadian? I hope so. I mean, so you, so you have to be Canadian to win that award. Yes. I like that the Canadians made that distinction because, you know, here in America, we have the Grammys. We get Grammys to anybody. You don't have to be an American to win a Grammy. I don't know if they're ours to give, though. Like, I think, well, I'm just saying that, you know, there's, we're not, there's, there's no sort of natural, nationalistic, distinction made that you have to be an American. I think they usually give it to Americans, but it's not written into the rules, but, uh, well, Canada's got their own, like,

radio rules where you have to like play like native Canadians I think a certain amount of times per hour. And that's how like bands like the tragically hip or like Our Lady Peace or I, we got to get Steve from Pop on here to explain this because like he does this on Twitter every now and again. And it's like I need to hear more. Well, we we have a Canadian quota in this show. We like to bring Canada at least like every once a month, you know, we want to bring up Canada because we love Canada. Shout out to the Canadians.

Yeah. We get lots of letters from Canada. All of Canada. Not just Toronto, not just Montreal, but like, you know, Alberta. Yeah. That's why I feel like I need to mention, you know, Sloan's between the bridges every now and then, you know, just for our Canadians out there. And also, you know, we don't really know Raleigh personally, but I feel like we both feel pride for music critics achieving things. outside of the music critic realm,

especially if they make their own records, right? I mean, we feel like, in a way, maybe we also won the Polaris Prize. Yeah, let's look at the big winners of the Polaris Pride, indie cast. Exactly. But, yeah, I was thinking about, like, other great musicians who were also former music critics.

I was thinking about, like, Patty Smith, the legendary punk rock singer-songwriter. I believe she had bylines and, like, Rolling Stone, Cream in the early 70s before she blew up. Chrissy Hind of The Pretenders, she wrote for the new musical Express in the 70s, and then she formed this great band, The Pretenders, and she also had a kid with Ray Davies,

which is pretty incredible. If you're a music critic and you can have a kid with Ray Davies, that seems like a dream for anyone who ever loved, Village Green Preservation Society. I believe, like, Jeff Tweedy dabbled in music writing. Yeah, I don't think he was ever. ever published beyond like maybe like a school paper or something. So are you saying that we're more successful than Jeff Tweedy in some

forums? Yes. In the music critic realm, we're wiping the flow with Jeff Tweety. Take that heavy metal drummer. Although he's catching up because he's writing books now and he has a substack too. We're screwed, man. So Tweedy is like, okay, I'm in my 50s now. It's time to catch up with my music critic career. I have a legendary musician career, but I have unfinished business from my music critic side of myself. So I think he's gunning for us now.

I don't like that, by the way. It's like, pick a lane. We're done for. I know. It's like, come on. We pick music criticism because we thought we can be moderately big fish in a small pond.

Now you have Jeff Tweedy coming in. He's going to wipe us all out of business. Yeah, you're giving the way of the game right here that we're all just like stifled musicians. now like now Jeff Tweedy is horny in our territory I mean if if Craig Finn ever starts a stub stack like we're we're we are like we are just done for so yeah he could kill it he he would murder I hope he doesn't listen I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast don't get any ideas Craig yeah I've got I've got kids to feed here um do we want to talk about R Kelly at all oh

yeah this seems like it like I mean in the slow steady process of him finally getting justice. I think that we've seen some bigger, like, it just seems like the news for him gets, like, worse and worse and, like, more fitting for, like, what he deserved all along. Yeah, I mean, we should just say, for those who don't know, that he was found guilty this week on nine federal charges of sex trafficking and racketeering. I believe that there were 11 people that testified against him in the trial, which is, like, the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. With R. Kelly. I mean, it really is, like, dozens of. of people whose lives he ruined over the course of 20 odd years.

You know, we talk a lot in the show about the year 2013 being a turning point in modern indie history. And another big thing that happened in 2013 was that R. Kelly headlined the Pitchfork Festival. And I'm fascinated by this in retrospect. Look, you know, I don't want to be too judgmental about critics back then. And you and I were both critics at that time, too. I was at that festival.

I mean, it's, you know, the fog of war and all of that. It's easier in retrospect to look back on something with clarity than maybe there was at the time. But there is something about R. Kelly that I think exposed a certain shallowness of regarding the engagement with commercial R&B that was happening in indie rock circles at the time. that I think people looked at R. Kelly for a long time as this ironic or even like comic figure who, like you knew him from the Chappelle show skit that he's alleged, you know, that he peed on people and like, oh, isn't he a quirky dude? And of course, what's excised from that Chappelle show skit is that he was caught on video urinating on an underage girl. Yeah. You know, and this was among many things that he had been accused of that was all documented.

in stories. I think Jim DeRogadis, who's a hero of this story, I think he wrote his first story in 1999. Yeah, it was like for years and years and years. So like 14 years before he played pitchfork. And this is all happening in Chicago as well. Which I think, you know, there... Right in his backyard. Yeah, I think there was an argument. The fact that like this was happening in Chicago made it a lot like, you know, it's like, well, the courts, you know, like didn't do their job. But also, like, I think we have to look at the fact that, like, this is all happening in Chicago, which probably made it, you know, more difficult to maybe the fact that it's federal charges. I don't know.

I don't want to get into the legal stuff of it. But, yeah, I mean, I think what with Jim Derogadis, like, he was just beating this drum for a very long time on behalf of the victims. And, you know, I, God, I saw, like, a tweet recently from Steve Albini and, you know, another Chicago fixture. Like a salute to Jim for fighting the good fight. while he said less serious music critics, I believe in quotes, looked away in order to maintain access. And I don't know. I saw that tweet.

Yeah. And it's, he's right, but I don't think for the right, like, I don't think. It's not about access at all. It's not like R. Kelly was like getting a lot of interviews or, you know, I think the access thing is always overblown. You know, and as, as, first off, I think this, this sort of mindset, grants critics way too much power. It was certainly not us propping R. Kelly up all those years. And it certainly wasn't to maintain access. But I think you're right in that he was seen,

particularly during the Trap in the Closet era, as this kind of self-aware, quasi-ironic, like, artist. It was, you know, in a lot of ways, making, still making very relevant music in a way, in a way that like some similarly troubling artists weren't. And you make a great point that if you were again, like even with all we knew, even like all of it was being made of a joke, like if you brought that up in the context of like, you know, trapped in the closet or the ignition remix or whatever, it's like you were seen as like a killjoy. And I think this speaks to the greater fear a lot of writers have of being seen as a square, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that was why critics were downplaying this for a very long time. Because I think with De Rogadis, I remember during the Pitchfork Festival, he held, he was doing this series of videos called the Kelly Conversations, like where he was interviewing critics about R. Kelly. And I think the point was to keep the dialogue going about his allegations during this festival. And I remember at the time, I mean, the perception of Jim, among a lot of critics, was that, yeah, he was a killjoy, that he was a scold, that he was an old guy who didn't get it. Yeah. And which is, I think, more than anything, if we talk about the vanity of music critics, that's the one thing that they're the most afraid of is being accused of, like, being old or out of it or against pop music. Yeah, exactly. And again, look, I mean, shout out to Jim.

And I'll just say, like, I know Jim a little bit. He's always been very nice to me. I think he's been nice to a lot of younger music critics. Not that I'm a younger music critic, he was a younger critic. He was very nice to me. But, you know, I admire him because he's always gone against the grain. And I think because of that, during the R. Kelly stuff in the early 2010s, I think people looked at him as a gadfly, you know, that he was just tweaking pitchfork

for the sake of, you know, tweaking pitchfork. fork and maybe they didn't take the actual substance of what he had reported seriously. And that tide didn't turn for another few years. But, you know, to me, like looking back on that, I think it's worth taking stock of the mistakes that were made in the critical community at that time. And I don't think you can ignore the racial element here either, where you have white indie rock fans who came to R. Kelly, because of Trichel, because of Tr. trapped in the closet for the most part.

And then they played catch up with a lot of his back catalog. And what R. Kelly exposed, I think, was the shallowness, again, of a lot of that engagement that people really didn't know that much about him. I mean, even if you didn't know anything about, like, what Dera Gattas had reported, about all of these victims who were ignored for a long time, Arkelly also had an extremely creepy relationship with Alia. Yeah, that was, like, all public. That was all public

And was she like 15 or 16 when they were allegedly Yeah I mean they were married right Yeah They went through a ceremony I don't know if it was legal or not But like that derailed that sort of thing derailed Jerry Lee Lewis's career In the 50s

You know like when he married a teenager And yet For whatever reason I think again because of ignorance basically People really just didn't know much about him That was overlooked for us a really long time. Yeah, and you look at like, oh, you know, this was pre-me-2 and people weren't as like up to

speed on how to do that. But I mean, like, you know, you look at like Chris Brown around the same time, you know, like he was not a commercial prior. Like he still has a very thriving career. But like you could not take Chris Brown seriously as a critic. Like after, you know, he assaulted Rihanna in 2009. And, you know, like saying, like four years later, he's playing an indie rock music festival. Yeah, I mean, there's just so much, like, how, I mean, to ask, like, how this happened and we actually live through it, it's just mind-boggling.

But I think at the end of the day, it's just kind of great that he's, you know, fine. Like, I think with, where you see with this, with Marilyn Manson, with, you know, what's happening with Britney Spears, it's just like a kind of long-awaited writing of wrongs that were allowed to fester for a very, very long time. Yeah. It's just fascinating to, like, live through something like that because it does give you a perspective on other. scandals that have happened in the past where you thought, how could people have excused that or overlooked that, you know, if you look at things in the 70s or 80s, but this is something that happened not that long ago, that, I think it just, to me it was a perfect storm of, you know, in a way that, and again, it's not that long ago, but I feel like back then it was, it was easy

to forget a story if people weren't talking about it. It was almost like, this is a scam, that happened in the past and and and then people sort of forget about it and they let a trail off. I mean, that was the same thing with Bill Cosby for the longest time. People knew about accusations against him, but it was like, well, I'm not hearing about it. So that must mean that it was all, you know, cleared up. You know, it must not have been an issue because no one's talking about it. And I think there was a, there was a feeling of that almost like with R. Kelly. So you have this almost like weird amnesia that.

I think existed at that time, as well as, I think, a sea change in critical orthodoxy where people really wanted to embrace someone like R. Kelly at that time. And it just created this thing where, again, to me, like, when we talk about canceled artists, there's artists who have said terrible things that they've gotten canceled for, you know, like Morrissey, for instance. I mean, he's said a lot of terrible things. but R. Kelly is a whole other level. I mean, he might be the worst musician in terms of the crimes that he's committed.

I mean, I guess there's been musicians who have killed people. There's been murderers. Yes, it's hard for us to really, like, you know, place crimes on a hierarchy. But, like... Well, in terms of the volume, though. I mean, you know, and, yeah, just the number of people that he has hurt is just, It's mind-boggling. And he was able to do that almost in plain sight for decades.

So, I don't know. It's going to be interesting. I think it's worth being introspective about that. If you write about music, if you cover music. And it seems like a lot has changed since 2013, but I don't know. It could happen again, I guess. I think it's just worth thinking about. So why don't we go to our mailbag segment here?

And again, thank you all for writing in. We get so many great questions, but we can always use more. So make sure to hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. You can also hit us up on Twitter. We're at Indicast 1. So if you want to ask a question there, that's great too. And if you want to harass the holder of the Indicast Twitter, now, don't do that. Oh, yeah, that's right, because there is another Indycast.

That's why we're Indicast one. Use our Street Army to get the original Indicast name. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we're initiating legal proceedings as we speak. We've got a high-powered team of lawyers. Nice Twitter handle. It would be a shame if something happened to it. Yep.

We're not making any threats. We're just saying it'd be a shame. Yeah. If, you know. The Many Saints in Newark in theaters this weekend. I know we're going to see that. If a rock went through your indie, if a rock went through your Twitter avatar,

we're just saying that, you know, that could happen. We're not saying we will do that, but it might happen. Do you want to read the first question? Yes, I do. So this question comes to us from Jason in Southington, Connecticut, which, you know, phenomenally Connecticut city name. This one is to the point, do you guys ever mosh? Or if you don't anymore, was there a person?

period of time that you used to? This is a great question. Jason actually wrote like a longer email than this, but it was, he told like a story about people moshing at an Oso Oso front bottom show. Wow, that was like the other day, huh. Yeah, so it was a little bit long, so Jason had to edit you a little bit. I thought we just get to the meat of the question. But he's asking, have we ever mosh?

Why don't you go first, Ian? Have you ever moshed before? I don't know if I talked about this on the last episode, but my first memories of finding out what moshing really was is, it must have been like the 1992 Super Bowl, and my older brother had some of his friends over, and during the halftime show, they put on Nevermind and started moshing to territorial pissings.

And I'm not going to say that was like the last time I mosh, because that's almost certainly not true. but, you know, it's funny. Can I just say quick? I just want to say quick. I have a very similar story to that. Because the first time I ever moshed was also in 1992. My friends and I, we all pitched in to get a pay-per-view concert of Guns and Roses.

Oh, wow. In Paris, I think it was. And Soundgarden was the opening act. And this was like Bad Motor Finger. And I remember we moshed to Rusty Cage. Yeah. That, you know what? plastic cage. Yeah, better that than like slaves and bulldozers because that shit's way too slow.

But yeah, it wouldn't work. Yeah, I mean, that was like my first experience with it. And you know, like during my, I guess what one would consider be my prime moshing years, like let's say, I don't know, 17 to 24 years old. I was for the most part listening to like the wimpiest indie music or like mainstream rock. Because like when you mention like Guns and Roses or Soundgarden, like yeah, you could potentially mosh that. but they're also playing these like gigantic stadiums at that time. So, you know, it doesn't quite seem the same. But, you know, I may have like dabbled in it. But, you know, like I'm a smaller guy and I wear glasses. Like I just have this, you know, we talked in the past about like our mortal fears of having to use like the porta potty at festivals. You know, for me, it's like what happens if like my glasses get broken in the pit, so to speak. And, you know, I can't drive home.

I don't can you know I'm totally cool with moshing I know like some artists have famously from the stage said to not do that I think like Fugazi was one of them and Joyce Manor I think got in a little bit of hot water for saying that it is kind of reflective of like this I don't know like macho agro sort of thing but I also will watch mosh videos all day long like you know I saw one from like the fiddlehead show in L.A which looked fucking and I don't know look at it's like this is fucking amazing and I'm like I would absolutely in no way shape or form participate in that yeah it looks it looks cool almost from like a like a like a like a like a flash mob said like yeah remember like when flashmops were a thing and you do the over-ed-ed-shot you mean back

like back like back back back back back back flashmops look I still hear high hopes on the radio and oh man yeah awful but yeah I mean my one in-person mashing experience was in, I guess it was 96. I saw Rancid on the Outcame the Wolves team at the Rave in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I was really excited for Rancid to come out. I pushed my way up to the front. And they came out, I believe they played Maxwell Murder first. And it was this experience I'll never forget where the crowd was so tightly packed up front.

that you ended up moshing as a big blob. Yeah. Like my feet were lifted a couple inches off the ground by this mob of people, so I couldn't really move, I control my body. I was just part of this big organism moving to and fro. And then the song ended, and like everyone fell over. So this really big dude fell over on me. So in a way, it wasn't, it was kind of a mosh pit,

but it was also just like, it was like we were, were one body of people, abdued, you know, affixed together and we were moshing as one. And after that, I got the hell out of there and went to the back of the venue. I'm like, this is not for me. Yeah. I'm just not built for this sort of thing because it was scary.

I didn't like it at all. It was just, you felt like you didn't have control of your own body or of any of the people around you. So, I don't know. I don't take a moral stance on moshing. I just know. not for me. As long as people

because sometimes you get near the mosh pit and dudes are like throwing other dudes into people who are just standing on the side. I don't like that. I think, you know, fight amongst yourselves. That's great. But if you're going to be a jerk and push other people that don't want to be pushed, that's when I object to it.

Yeah. Yeah. Also, I think that there needs to be some sort of legislation on like what band you can mosh to. Like, I don't see like, moshing to oh-so-oh-so really like really really heightening the experience you know yeah and and I think again like if the band says don't do it yeah then don't do it um let's move on to our second question this comes from Dave and Glenn Ellen Illinois oh that's an Indycast town I know I always feel like

that's another one like North Canton where I'm like is that a real uh city name because Glenn Ellen that just sounds like uh you know did he even played bass and dismemberment plan back in the day. I mean, Glenn Allen. It sounds like a dude that played in the 90s band, really, that name. You touched on this a little bit in last week's episode when you talked about Anthony Ketus, and it got me thinking. You both interview a lot of musicians. What are some other artists you find to be interesting people or interview subjects, even though you don't necessarily love their music? That's a good question, Dave. because I do find, I don't know about you, Ian,

I've had experiences interviewing people where I wasn't a fan, and I ended up loving the conversation. And that happened a lot when, in the early days of my career, when I worked for a daily newspaper, and I would just have to interview whatever musician was coming through the area.

So I ended up interviewing a lot of country artists, and I interviewed a lot of, like, dudes from 80s hair metal bands. Like I remember one of the great interviews I did at that time was with Cecee Deville from Poison, who was... I mean, I'm sort of... I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Poison.

I kind of like some of their songs just as fun party music, you know, nothing but a good time, things like that. Certainly was not a huge fan and might have even took like a dim view of Poison and back in those days. But C.C. DeVille was this gregarious person. He had amazing stories about, you know, going into bad parts of town when he was an addict and, you know, buying drugs and, like, drinking, like, paint thinner when he didn't have any alcohol in his house.

And he had such a, like, self-aware attitude about himself. Like, he wasn't deluded at all about his place in the world, which I found was true of a lot of people from that world. Like whenever I would interview someone from Warrant or rat. Whenever I interviewed someone from Warren, this suggests it happens multiple times. It happened. It happened a lot. Never Janie Lane, unfortunately.

I would have liked to talk to Jenny Lane before he passed. But I always found them to be really refreshing. And they had great stories. And I loved it. I mean, sometimes like when you interview a musician that you really admire, it can be nerve-wracking and maybe even disappointed. if they don't have a whole lot to say whereas if it's someone that you don't really care about

musically, it's just like talking to a person and you can be a little bit more removed in that respect. Have you had good experiences? Interviewing decisions you don't really like? I just love the fact that Dave from Glenn Allen, Illinois, like I just love that sentence. You talked about Anthony Keatis and it got me thinking.

We were offering food for thought whenever we discuss Anthony Keatis. It's a prompt for greater discussion. You know, you mentioned 80s hair metal dudes. Like I, you know, I didn't have that the Beatles in Hamburg phase where I was kind of doing my thing at the local newspaper. But I guess there's like kind of a corollary to the 80s hair metal dudes in that when you talk to 90s alt rock dudes, one of the many shuttered publications that I've written for over the years, like I think it might have been like Live Nation TV or something. I'd get the opportunities to do...

Whoa. When was that? Fuck, man. I don't need... Like, we could do an entire episode of, like, places that I've written for in the past, like, 20 years that have just gone, like, completely dark. Everything disappears. I mean, like, Live Nation TV, that sounds vaguely dystopian. Like, Live Nation had a publication that you wrote for, but anyway.

The upside of that sort of publication. is that I would get the opportunity to talk to guys like, say, Art Alexakis from Everclear, the lead singer from Filter, and 90s alt rock dudes. I mean, like, we, they're, I'm just going to give away the next million dollar idea of to have, you know, the Eve 6 guy will probably host it, where you just do a podcast and talk to 90s alt rock guys because, you know, look, I mean, do I listen to short bus or title of record? these days, not really, but you talk to a guy like Richard Patrick

and they've got stories from a time where the music industry was still thriving. And that to me is just a recipe for an interview that can exceed far beyond what their music does. I mean, I don't know. Like, I remember in the guitar world reading

like really funny interviews with Gavin Rossdale. Right. Oh yeah. Rossdale, I've read interviews with him. He seems like a great guy, I have to say, based on his interviews. Yeah. And so anyone, anyone like that, I mean, for the most part, I would say with 95% of interviews, I do, I end up liking the music more that, like, after I'm done interviewing the person than when I started. I can, you know, this is obviously not a subject. I'm going to discuss publicly, but about artists who I liked less after I interviewed them. Oh man, that's a great topic for an episode. Or, like, which artist do you follow on Twitter? Because, like, they have an incredible Twitter account, but you don't really fuck with their music. Like, I don't think I'm ready to have that discussion either. Or the reverse where you really like their work and then they got on Twitter.

And you're like, ah, I like it less. There's definitely some examples of that for me. Yeah. I mean, there's one person that I interviewed where I went in liking his music and then at the end. I thought, like, he was clearly, like, so dumb that it made me not like his music anymore. It just made me feel like a fool for liking his music. And I'm really close to saying this person's name, but maybe I won't. That just seems mean.

Maybe this is, like, bonus episode material. Yeah. Like, that's how we... We got to start a Patreon. Like, Indycast after dark. Yeah. Or Indicast undercover. Five dollars every month and we start naming names.

But you have to, like, sign a non-disclosure to get into this Patreon. So, like, we'll tell you if you pay us, but you can't tell other people who we're talking about. I mean, because then we could just unleash the DMs. Like, you and I DMs, like, you and I DM each other. Yeah. And we're taking shots at certain things that we wouldn't on the show. That's where we could empty all those DMs into. Yeah.

I like this idea. The NDA Patreon for this show. We'll get that going at some point. If we start hurting for money. Let's get into the meat of our. episode. This is going to be fun because we're talking about two, I guess you can call them bands. I mean, in a way, they're real similar because it's like one person really with a supporting

cast of hired guns that they use on the road, but it's really, it's like a nine-inch-nail situation. It's like one person, although even nine-inch nails, this isn't true of anymore because of Atticus Ross and Richard Patrick. I think he was in, I think that was his, He was in Nine Inch Nails for a bit. Yeah, he was. So, but anyway, we're talking about Illuminati Hotties.

We are. We are. We are talking about Strandabokes. Two quintessential indie cast acts that you and I have both written about these people. Yeah. And we've written positive things in the past. Let's talk about Illuminati Hotties first. This is the project of a musician and producer named Sarah Tudson.

she got started about three years ago she put a record called Kiss Your Frememes and originally she was working behind the scenes like she had worked on records as an engineer for you know by like Lady Gaga

Cole played by Hamilton soundtrack I think she was involved in and I mean so really like an in demand engineer and she ended up making this mix CD of different songs of

varying genres to show off her engineering skills and producing skills to show that she could do lots of different kinds of music. And that ended up being her debut album, Kiss Your Friend of Me's, which was a really good record. Came out in 2018, I believe you and I both talked up that record back in the day. The Tiny Engines Days. The Tiny Engines Days. And then last year she put out a quickie record called Free IH.

and in a way that ended up being her breakthrough because I feel like a lot more people started talking about her music she was in the situation again with tiny engines where she wanted to leave the label because that label became beleaguered for many reasons that we won't get into right now almost embattled if you will yeah in battled

in battles is a better word than beleaguered and she had to make this record to satisfy a contractual obligation to finally free herself from the label and it was this 23-minute record it was noisier than her first album a little bit more spastic I think the absurdist humor aspect of what she does

really started to come out on that record and that carries over to the new one let me have one more which was for the most part made before Free IH although I think she did some work after that album came out but I feel like this is one of my favorite albums of the year I like this album a lot

as I said before, she works in a lot of different genres, although I think her home base is this sort of bubble gum, sugar-fueled type of pop punk. That's her core brand. And, you know, the thing I really appreciate about her is that we're in a period of indie rock right now that is especially dower. You know, a lot of very quiet records, a lot of very slow-paced albums, a lot of lyrics about depression and mental illness and, you know, existential. anguish with the world. And with Sarah, she also writes about a lot of those things, depression, heavy subjects, but she comes at it from a much more irreverent point of view, and she marries it to music that is a lot more upbeat.

Again, there's a spastic aspect to what she does. To me, it's almost like, there's like a Tim and Eric element almost sometimes to her music and also her videos, where she's taking an idea to the extreme. it almost becomes absurdly grotesque. Yeah. And it's a very unique aesthetic. And I really appreciate it, again, because I think in this moment of indie, it does seem unique to me, that she can, again, write about heavy subjects,

but from this almost, again, absurdist comic point of view. Although it's not like comedy rock or anything. She's not making jokes. It's just an irreverent attitude, I think, that really adds to what she's doing, musically. Yeah, it's interesting that you like say that it's kind of goes against the grain of what indie rock is what's happening in indie rock right now. Whereas I see, you know, a lot of stuff like, you know, the, the, the return of pop punk punk and, uh, you know, Olivia Rodriguez and, and, you know, like pom-pom squad or things like that. And it's like, Lou and I Hoddies was like

kind of ahead of the curve. Right. When Sarah co-produced that pom-pom spot, yeah, and they're touring together as well. So they're touring together. They're touring together. And, yeah, there was some dialogue about whether Olivia Rodriguez was jacking the aesthetic of Illuminati Hotties. And I interviewed Sarah last week, and I asked her about that. And for the record, she is a fan of Olivia Rodriguez. I think she takes the attitude that if Olivia Rodriguez can do this in the mainstream, that's probably going to help me too. Exactly. And I think that this year was between, you know, Kish are frenemies was kind of like a slow burn.

sort of success. Like I know that like once people and you know, you know that Sarah is very self-aware and, you know, does things very intentionally. But like the name is, I'm sure there are quite a few people myself included who see the name and think, oh, that's the awesomest name or it's like, I'm not listening to Sun called Illuminati Hotties. And then, yeah, as more people kind of like discover the depth of her work, like I'm a big fan of her in ballad mode. Like those are my favorite songs on Kish Her Friend of Me's. as well as the new one, which in a weird sort of way, like, it seems like a, I don't know,

like an inverse of like what's supposed to happen. Like all the singles are always the ones like pool hopping or that like are humorous and they have like that Tim and Eric sort of slapstick appeal. Like I remember I saw her open up for American football two years ago and, you know, they had the cheerleader uniforms on and, you know, my fiancee looks at her. is like this must have been a musical theater person. I'm like, yeah. You know, in a way, like her being from L.A. and everything,

like she, in sort of like a sort of like Phoebe Bridgers sort of way where it just seems very natural for her to be this kind of multi-hyphenate of comedy, production of, you know, to the point where like the albums like aren't the whole thing in a way. Like I think you can be like a huge fan of Sarah Tudson without necessarily, listening to Illuminati-Hadi albums, like, you know, twice a week or whatever. Like, this album is a lot for me. I have to be in a very specific headspace to want to put it on as opposed to something that is a little more vague or ambivalent.

You know, when I listen to it, I like it, but it can be very difficult for me to sit down. It's like, okay, I'm going to listen to this Luminati-Hadis album. and I'm going to listen to it all the way through because it's a lot. I mean, I think one thing I really love about this record is that it does move, I think, through different modes pretty smoothly,

that you do have the songs, like when you say this album's a lot, I have a feeling you're referring to, you know, songs like that. Yeah, I don't know how to say it out like. We have to sing the chorus. That's what's genius about that song title. I asked her how to pronounce this, actually.

She said she pronounces it moo. So we'll just say, we'll just call it moo, moo, which was one of the singles from the record. And she's, you know, very kind of, again, it's a spastic delivery. She's almost like screaming the chorus. It is a song that I could see people not feeling too much, because again, it's very in your face.

But then it goes from there to the almost like film noir sounding song. It's like that Americana song that Buck Meek is on. And this is hilarious because like Buck Meek, of course, he's the guitar player and Big Thief. He recently played with Bob Dylan on his Shadow Kingdom video that he put out this summer. He's an in-demand guitar player, but he doesn't play guitar on that song. He only does the, there's a voiceover narration that happens in the outro that Buckmeek does. So, I mean, I appreciate that, the meta quality of, you know, enlisting this, like,

well-respect of guitar player and just having him talk, not having him play guitar. But anyway, it does go from the spastic to the more contemplative. And as you were saying, there's some really great ballads on this record. I just think she's like a really talented person. I think she's a really good songwriter. And, you know, she's great in studio. It'll be interesting to see how she evolves as she goes along because it really does seem like she might make another record like this

or she might make a record that sounds nothing like this. You know, it's hard to say with her. but I think she has the talent to do lots of different kinds of music. Yeah, and I think that we could be witnessing like a future where like Illuminati Hotties is like not the, it's almost like with like bleachers or in Jack Antonoff or whatever where she's like just so in demand as like a writer or a mixer or an engineer or just like a conceptual artist that the band itself might be just something that kind of happens every now and again. Yeah, I mean, stop hiring Jack Antonoff and hire Sarah Tudson to work on your record, you know? Because there is a similarity in aesthetics there, but I just find that what Sarah does is more interesting at this point than what Jack Antenov is doing. So, you know, taking shots at Jack there.

I'm sorry, Jack, but I'm just saying give Sarah Tudson some work. Let's move over to Strand of Oaks, which is a band, again, that you and I have written a lot about. it's a project of a guy named Tim Scho Walter who, full disclosure, we've both gotten to know. Just as a person, extremely nice guy, very gregarious. Yeah, we both loved him as a person. And he had a very indie cast-like arc. He was born in Indiana.

Then he lived in Philly for a long time. And now he lives in Austin. I feel like those are all three strong Indycast regions for Tim to know from. But I know I first encountered Tim around the time of Pope Kildragon because of a blog called Muscle of Bees, which is based in Wisconsin. Shout out to Ryan Madison, by the way. I think Ryan is now Tim's manager, but he used to run a blog called Muscle of Bees. But I know by Pope Kildragon, that's still like your favorite.

Yeah. That one was the first one I discovered him as well. like if we want to talk about like shuttered music blogs, I think that was like an e-music's recommended album. Oh, yeah, like we want to like talk about 2010 in its most accurate terms. I discovered it through there and it sounds not a lot like any,

like it doesn't sound like much that he's done, particularly since he got picked up by Dead Oceans. It's an extremely imaginative folk indie album where he imagined. He imagines himself, like, avenging the death of John Belushi. Or, yeah, which one? No, Jim. John Belushi, right? Yeah, Jim is still with us.

Okay, yeah, so it's John Balushi. He's probably hanging out in a barbecue singing in Blues Brothers songs right now. So God bless Jim Belushi. Yeah, Jim Belushi's got that loud. I know he's trying to, like, sell weed on Twitter. But, yeah. And then, you know, there are other songs where he just kind of imagines, like, being the bastard son of, like, John Kennedy.

It's just all of these very, and there's a lot of, you know, like, Pope Kill Dragon, a lot of mythological, antiquated imagery, there's like a doom metal interlude, just wildly original album. I absolutely loved it. And it's still like something I recommend to anyone who's in that kind of orbit of fulky indie rock. But, you know, when I really got on board with Stranda Oaks,

I saw him perform, I think, a must have been at like, spaceland in L.A. He was opening for like Joe Pug or something like that. And we end up, like, shooting the shit at the bar. We're, like, talking about Machina, the Machines of God for an hour or something like. Smashing Pumpkins, yes. And he's a huge smashing pumpkins, man. Huge, yeah.

He writes lyrics about them. James Iha's on the new album. And you can see, like, as his career progresses, that he's aspiring to make music more in that vein. Like, with Pope Kildragon, that's kind of the apex of his, like, of the fokey era of his career. and then he put out Heal in 2014. Well, you're missing Dark Shores. Well, we're not going to walk through every one of his records. Because we have to get to his latest record, which is called In Heaven.

But just saying, I think Heel was the turning point that you're referring to from the more of the folk thing to this update of alt rock, you know, guitar heavy, very anthemic. And since that, I mean, he's had some ups and downs with that. I think Heal was a very well-received record because of the music and also because it was a very autobiographical record. He wrote about some problems that he was having in his marriage. He wrote about his house burning down. I think he also had a really bad car accident around that time where he almost got killed. So there was a lot of crazy things that had happened to him that he was drawing from for his records at the time. So it really kind of took on this like cathartic edge in a lot of his music.

And he's had some ups and downs. I think he put out, like, he put out a record called Hard Love that people weren't crazy about. I think that record's like a little underrated. But this new record in heaven, I think is his best record since, Heal. And I would say that if there was like a trinity of Strand of Oaks records, I would say Pope Kill Dragon, Heal, and then this new one would be the one. Like if you've never heard Strand of Oaks before, those would be the three I would recommend. And I think that he's really come into his own as a person who has embraced more of a rock band sound

and really tried to push out in a very lush, grandiose kind of direction. Like this record in a lot of ways reminds me of like mid-90s Brit Pop, you know, of like Champaign Supernova or Bittersweet Symphony, like songs like that that just have an uplift to them, an epic feel. and I think he's been moving toward that for a long time and this record to me feels like the greatest realization of those ambitions that he's pulled off yet. Yeah, he, and this obviously comes across

in the music he makes, he's just like a fan of music as much as anything which I think makes this music very approachable and, you know, maybe in some ways like ensures that it will never quite have like the mystique of a champagne supernova or like a bittersweet symphony, but I do agree that this is his best one since Heal. You know, the reason I had mentioned Dark Shores before is that he kind of has this like every other album sort of thing where it's like he really goes for it and connects and then there's an album that kind of, in his words, doesn't quite go all the way. Like he's been very critical himself of, you know, hard love of like, man, like I knew what I was going to try to go for.

like he was going for more like a ravey Mad Chester sort of thing and he just didn't go all the way and I think with this one there's kind of a comfort in it like I don't think he like it's an ambitious record but it's not quite as striving

in the same way the other ones were which maybe were their downfall because he's very indie cast in the sense that he's just been this like underdog with like shit luck and underappreciated and I think that was a big part of heel as well after he released this like flop album and just had to just kind of start all over again.

And it's been interesting to kind of see him be, I don't know, growing into this, I don't say Journeyman as like a pejorative sort of thing, but as this guy who reliably reased his albums every two years, he's not going to get dropped from the label. He's not going to end up having to figure out what the hell he's going to do with his life. And there's a comfort to end heaven that I don't get from the other ones, you know? Yeah, and, you know, to your point, I mean, he's toured a lot with Jason Isbell. He's, like, established a relationship with my morning jacket.

Yeah. I think his records would slot in a lane where, if you like, the war on drugs, you're going to probably like Strand of Oaks. There's a similar kind of vibey Heartland Rock feel to a lot of his post-heel work. So again, I mean, I feel like if you like all the artists, I just mentioned that you probably already know Strain of Oaks, but he still does seem like a guy who's like a little under the radar. So this is a great opportunity, I think, to catch up with his catalog. And I know, like for you, too, like you were talking before about Pope Kildragon,

it would be interesting to hear him do another record like that, where it had this, again, like you said, a very imaginative, mythology to it. I mean, because he's really taken to writing more autobiographical songs since then. I will say that I love, on the new record, there's recurring Jimmy Hendrix references. Like, there's a song that talks about his last concert in Germany in 1970, which I think was about two weeks before he died. And there's a really great song on the record called Jimmy and Stan that was released as a single. And it's about his cat, Stan. passed away and he has a fantasy about his cat hanging out in heaven with Jimmy Hendricks.

Which again, I mean, I think that is Tim at his best where it's something heartfelt, but it's also like a little eccentric at the same time. That seems to be his sweet spot. When he can do that, it's something really special, I think, happening on his records. All right, we now reach the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? Yeah, so this is kind of a big week for Under the Ray,

our indie cast core. I want to give a shout to couplet, which is the new record from Tanner Jones of You Blewit. I have an interview running today on Uprocks. It's their album LP2. If you're a fan of the Postal Service, mice parade, the no twist, check that out. I also want to give attention to the new Howdy record. They're a band from Austin, Texas.

They made albums that they've called in the past Pillow Core. It's more kind of like slowcore, Folky in that big thief realm. This new album, True Love, is, it's not their overt pop move, but it's definitely the one where if you've heard of Howdy but never quite got what they do, this is the one for you. I get a kind of wholesome dudes rock, best buds, Japan droids spirit from this album, if not necessarily the sound of it. It sounds like quite the opposite of it, but, you know, they'll have songs about air drumming

to Everlong. on the radio, just about like walking around Texas in your youth. It's kind of a Richard Linklater sort of thing going on as well. And just like a really well-produced, a catchy album that hits of, like, I'm going to steal Steve's terrain right here and talk about what it might be like to, on the first October weekend of the year,

sitting on your back porch, having a beer, thinking about, you know, going to college at a big public university and watching college football. Oh, yeah. Because these dudes are sports guys. They're definitely jocks. I interviewed them. They played basketball and baseball throughout high school.

Yeah, it's like, it's, if you like any of the things I had mentioned, or let's say, a more low-key version of Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, some of the songs remind me of like War on War, heavy metal drummer. This is, you know, this is kind of a crossover indie rock album. that on most, I think a year from now, or two years from now when Howdy releases their next album, where they would be the meat of an Indycast episode. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm glad you brought this record up because I like this record quite a bit too. And I don't know if you would call this an appropriate comparison, but I've always kind of slotted

them in my mind with like Alex G. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Where it's like a lo-fi aesthetic, but also writing, you know, these great. kind of almost like Americana type songs. And that's the zone that they're in. So it's like not totally straightforward. It kind of makes it more interesting sonically because of the way that they attack it.

But yeah, that's a really good record. That's a good band. And yeah, I think that they're... I mean, like how popular would you say they are right now? I feel like they actually have a bigger audience than maybe they get credit for, but they haven't quite blown up. Pretty popular.

It's funny. They're on tour right now, or at least were recently, with this band called Dayglo, who has like five and a half, like almost six million followers monthly on Spotify, and nobody talks about them. They're like a band like still woozy or like all these bands that like populate indie feel good playlist and are just like wildly popular and never get talked about. So how do you know, yeah, howdy is a band that's maybe not at Alex G level, but like

I don't think they're there yet, but they're definitely popular. They're probably more popular than most people think. Yeah, I think this record will probably add to that popularity. You know, that should be an episode of this show. Of talking about absurdly popular bands that never get talked about. Day glow, glass animals, still woozy. I mean, boy, Pablo, like, this stuff is just insanely popular. And maybe that's kind of the point, you know, that we don't talk.

It's like the stuff that always comes up on Spotify after you're done listening to an album and you haven't noticed that it's finished and then you're another song. It's like, oh, that sounds like something I like. And then you look at it and it's like, who the hell is that band? And you realize, yeah, they've been, they have like 50 million streams of this song. For my recommendation, I'm going to do some self-promotion here. I did an interview this week with B.J. Burton, who is a sought-after producer and engineer. Most recently, he produced the great. album Hey What for Lowe, but he has a long history of working on, I think, pretty great in influential records. He was a participant in Yeezis back in the day. He was a co-pilot of the Bunny Bear record, 22 a million. And I sat down with him at his studio in Minneapolis this week, and we had a really great conversation. And I have to say that even if you don't care about any of the records I just mentioned, that it'd be worth reading this just because BJ is really candid, talking about his relationship with Kanye, his relationship with Justin Vernon. He actually said some disparaging things about the record I-I, which he contributed to. He co-wrote the song,

Hey Ma, which was nominated for the record of the year Grammy, but he didn't work on a lot of that record. And he said it's flat out to me. He's like, I don't think that's a great record. I think it's all over the place. We agree on that. Yeah. So, and again, he was really candid with me. but he's also like a really nice guy and I think a really insightful person. So if you're interested in indie rock, just in general, I think this would be worth reading. So go on Uprocks,

look up my name or just Google Uprocks B.J. Burton, this profile will come up. I think if you haven't read it already, it will be of the highest interest to listeners of this show. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. Thank you again for listening.

We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.