Indiecast - Indiecast Answers Listener Questions

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Steven is on the road this week doing book promotion and other fun things, so it seemed like a perfect time for he and Ian to answer some listener emails. As always, our listeners stepped up with some amazing topics this week.First, the guys talk about the recent Sufjan Stevens Illinois musical and discuss other albums that might warrant the adaptation treatment (7:44). Second, they talk about the best three-year period in modern music history and why it's (probably) 2000-02 (16:01). Third, they revisit Car Seat Headrest's 2020 album Making A Door Less Open and whether it's the biggest drop-off from an acclaimed predecessor (25:22). Fourth, they talk about the run of recent jangle pop and shoegaze albums and whether it's possible for homages to be better than the originals (35:34). Finally, they discuss their favorite recent music books, and the overall state of the 33 1/3 series (44:46).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 193 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indie Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to IndieCast. On the show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we respond to emails from you, the Indicast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. I hope we did well at Book Soup this week. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? Yeah, never work in this town again. Yeah, I'm just glad that you, I was glad you booked it for, June rather than meltdown May because gosh if we like a record if we air the episode on you know the 21st where it's like you know Indycast broke up and then we have to like leave this really sad message about the book soup debacle I don't want to think about that stuff right now I'm assuming it went super well and your book sales shot through the roof they booked a second gig you know it's like when on tour if like one night it sells out

they brought us back yeah That's my hope. I mean, we should explain this is a banked episode. We recorded this a week ahead of time because I travel to Los Angeles this week. I had a book event, had some media things. And then I flew back to Minnesota. And I'm saying all this stuff in the past tense, even though it hasn't happened yet. But it will have happened by the time this episode post.

I fly back to Minnesota. And then the next day, I fly out with my wife and daughter to, Baltimore because my son is in a boy choir and he's on tour this one. He's on a two-week tour. He's out east going to like Maryland. They're going to like the White House. They're going through the middle of the country. He's like on the road.

So we're going to go visit him or we did go visit him in the parlance of this episode in the middle of the tour. So it's a whirlwind week for me. that's why we're baking this episode. Yeah, I'm thinking, like, is he going to have some, like, turn the page type stories, you know? I don't know. It's like, you know, he hasn't been away from home this long ever.

I mean, he's had, you know, he's gone to summer camps where he's gone for a week, but this is 13 days. I mean, I don't know what he's going to be like when I see him. He may have, you know, facial stubble and smoking a cigarette and, you know, just be grizzled from the road. I'm complaining about the green room. So much fucking hummus, man. Exactly.

Talking about, you know, what are some of the things Bob Seeker complains about and turn the page? I'm trying to remember the lyrics. Hotel rooms probably. I'm just remembering like the Metallica cover version with the Yonis Akron Loan video. That's like, oh man, from MTV. So depressing. Not the definitive version, but we could do an entire episode of like Yonis Akron lung videos

that were made for the express purpose of getting banned by MTV. Smashy Pumpkins. Try, try, try. That's another one. The, yeah, that Metallica video, that's like the most depressing. It's disturbing, I think, ever made. It's like a single mom who is a sex worker, and then she gets murdered at the end. Yeah.

Right? I don't think she gets murdered. I think, like, that's even worse. Yeah, even worse. So, yeah. Which, you know, obviously is, like, equivalent to being in Metallica, you know. Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, this is a song about being on the road.

I feel like we're taking it a little too far with this video Metallica. This is a little intense. I'm looking at the lyrics of Turn the Page, and it's talking about you're writing 16 hours and there's nothing to do. So you're just like on a long drive between tour dates. And then you're walking into a restaurant and you're strung off on the road. People are staring at you. And people are like making fun of your long hair.

these are kind of more early 70 specific complaints. I don't think this would be... Yeah, kids got phones nowadays. They're not... They're fine. Yeah, I guess. They're not allowed to bring any type of electronic devices on this tour. No electronic devices, no iPads, no phones.

It's strictly lo-fi. These people are serious, so I don't know. DIY or die getting the van. Yeah, it's going to be good. It'll be a good experience for him. I'm a little nervous. I'm a little sad. He's going to be gone as long as he is, but...

I think it'll be good. We're doing a mailbag episode because it's convenient for us for a banked app. We were talking, though, we feel like, we were talking about how the release schedule, at least in the near future, seems a little bare. There was a Sturgle Simpson record that was announced last week where he's rebranded himself as Johnny Blue Skies. I don't know if you saw that. I did. Because he looks like, he looks like Jeremy Allen aged like 20 years in his press photos. That are like 1 Otricks Point Never.

He like looks like he's going to be in a Safty Brothers film. He could be. It could happen. So there's that record coming up in July. But I don't know. I mean, the cover feels a little bare until maybe we get more towards the fall. I hope so. I mean, like you're going to get like a Megan the Stallion album.

Like stuff that, like, like, I think we're going to get some pop albums. I know Sabrina Carpenter. They got one coming out in the future. But yeah, we are looking at, like, I'm just looking at the release slate.

We got Imagine Dragons, Nathaniel Ratliff and the Night Sweets, Caspian. It's a Claro record coming up in July. Yeah, that's July. And then Cigarettes After Sex. That's like one of the, we can just like spend an entire,

it's spent an entire episode mocking that. dude, we got Glass Animals. They're back. Ice Spice's debut. So, I mean... Fuck yeah, man. It's Charlie Bliss record in like mid-August. Illuminati Hotties right after that.

Fonte's D.C. Have we talked about Fonte's D.C? I feel like that's one of those like European post-punk bands that we don't get excited about. But I think they're... I think they're... kind of better than a lot of those bands, though. They're, like, sort of, like, the gallant to, like, idols is goofess.

I don't know. They just, they seem a little bit more legit. I kind of like some of their songs. But, yeah, this sort of person who's, like, super into idols, like, you gotta hear this band Fontaine's DC. I mean, we're already engaging in, like, future type of guys. So, uh, yeah, well, maybe we'll talk about them. I noticed, in September, the day before my birthday,

We have a double shot of David Gilmore and Paris Hilton. That might have to be an episode. Talk about Paris and Pink Floyd. Let's get to the mailbag. We got a deep mailbag here. You know, we always end up having mailbag segments in our episodes that get cut because we end up talking for too long about whatever. And, you know, we could be like, oh, do we really need a sports cast?

Or should we read this letter? and we always decide, yeah, we need the sports cast, and the letter can wait. So it's good to catch up with these emails. Do you want to read our first email, Ian? Yes, I do. Okay, so this comes to us from Josh from Boulder, Colorado. Love the Pod, long time, first time.

With the recent success of the Broadway musical based on Sufjans, Illinois, I guess I'm going to say Illinois rather than Illinois's. I never got clarification on which one is it. Yeah, I was going to say, is it? It's like blonde. you know, do we have, like Frank Ocean's blonde. Do I put the E in there or not?

I never have gotten that way. Yeah, I don't know. It gets confusing. I've been thinking about albums I'd like to see turn into films or plays. As opposed to biopics, I feel there can be more interesting stories to be told about artists through their own albums

whether or not it's a concept record. What I would give for Richard, Link Later, to direct an adaptation of Separation Sunday. Any albums you'd like to see turn into a musical, rock opera, or movie? Who would you want to direct? P.S., a few episodes back, you joked about the Indicats listener gets all their sports info from you.

I am that person. You got me through a conversation about the Timberwolves last week. So shout to Josh. Yeah, from Boulder, Colorado because, you know, the nugs, they were bounced by the Timberwolves. So we're really out here making a difference. Awesome. So the thing that I thought of immediately with this was Chris Gaines. I would love a Chris Gaines film.

and I'm trying to figure out what would be the best approach for that. Like should it... Danny McBride. Well, I'm just wondering like, okay, is it a movie about the character Chris Gaines or is it a movie

about Garth Brooks deciding that he's going to become Chris Gaines? Because it's two subtly different movies. One is a movie about like a famous country singer who adopts a persona and the other movie is just a straightforward biopic about this character.

And I kind of like the former approach, the Garth Brooks, where it's about Garth Brooks deciding to become Chris Gaines and then the aftermath of that decision. I think that would be a great movie. But yeah, Danny McBride. I think like a Jody Hill, Danny McBride, Chris Gaines movie would be incredible. Along the same lines of what Josh was saying,

in terms of looking at like a record that has a kind of, concept to it. He mentioned separation Sunday. I was thinking maybe like Southern Rock Opera by Drive by Truckers. I think that could be a really good movie. And again, I don't know if that is about the characters in the album or is it about like Patterson Hood deciding he's going to make this record as a way to figure out his feelings about being from the South. Like I think either movie could be really good. And then my other, my last choice, and this is just because I obviously have Bruce Springsteen on the brain lately, but, and I've talked about this in interviews I've done recently,

I think that, like, you could make a mini-series from the songs on The Ghost of Tom Jode, because those songs are so lyrically dense, and each song feels like a story onto itself that, like, I want HBO. I think they could make a good, like, limited one series just based on that record and like 20 people would watch

and I'd be one of them but I'd be really excited about it so that's my answer what's your answer to this question yeah those are all really good choices for me though like actually my wife is seeing Illinois this summer so I'm excited about

you know her reportage back on that and I'm sure it's going to be amazing and I have the feeling like you know with its success it might end up overshadowing the actual record but when I thought about like movies, I wanted to see Made Out of albums. Like, I tried to, the first ones that obviously came to mind were like, you know, Mountain Goats to Sunset Tree or Separation Sunday or rap albums.

And I, that seemed a little like cheating because they already have a lot of plot. So I wanted something that already had a degree of theatricality to it in the music and the presentation and still like a fairly coherent narrative without an actual script. And so the first thing that came to mind, was the first glass beach album because, you know, it's similar to Illinois in format. There's these six-minute songs, but also these interludes that might tie things together. And I think Jane Schoembrough, we talked about her for I Saw the TV Glow a few weeks back. Seems like the obvious choice because it plays with a lot of similar themes to I Saw the TV Glow,

which, you know, like gender dysphoria, trans awakening, and her previous movie, we're all going to the World's Fair, which is a lot about being extremely online. that would be kind of an interesting tonal shift for her because her, you know, previous movies are a little more Donnie Darko. This might be more big budget and modern. And you mentioned Richard Link later. I mean, I don't hate to say this because I still love this album. But if we're going to do anything, it's got to be the suburbs. I mean, that just made, it's in Texas.

It's got that same sort of, you know, majestic and warm feeling that boyhood had. I'm shocked it hasn't happened already. But the one that I thought, like, if I want, if we're going to talk about an album that just kind of keeps on giving years after the fact of its narrative, like, what if Todd Haynes or, oh my gosh, what's the guy who did the big short? The movie director who did the big short. Adam McKay. What if, yeah, what if they got a hold of St. Vincent's Daddy's. home and made it entirely about St. Vincent's dad going to jail for like big financial crimes. I think that I think there I think there's something going on with that.

So yeah, I think it's, I think I would love to see just, you know, just turning an album that is so fascinating like everything but its actual music and just kind of turning that into a great film and then all of a sudden the actual album becomes like detritus in the St. Vincent's story. Yeah, that's another movie where, yeah, you could make it about the album or you could make it about the artist deciding to make that album, like St. Vincent, her thought process where she's at home with her father after he's been released for committing financial crimes. And then she's like, I'm going to make a record about this. And it's going to be like a 70s glam rock homage. Or maybe like David Simon, you know, like.

make it like actual 70s, like the wire or tremay or something like that. I think you were right initially with Todd Haynes. I think the Todd Haynes pairing with that could be really good because he could bring in like the subtle campiness that you would need, I think, for that movie to work. The problem with a Daddy's Home movie is that there's already a movie called Daddy's Home starring Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg. And I think there's like a Daddy's Home too. Yes, that has to be true, yeah.

So maybe this could be called Daddy's Home 3, St. Vincent. You know, like Daddy's Home 3, colon, St. Vincent. I really wish you had this discussion a couple weeks ago because we could take meetings in L.A., you know. Oh, that's true. We go on the 21st. Like, yeah, so we took a, we had a couple pitches. We got laughed out of the room. But, you know, it was a good experience for our next one.

Well, wait a second, though. We are having this before the L.A. trip, though. So there's still time to book. See, whenever you do the banked up, the time space continuum gets broken and you forget, like, am I in the past? Am I in the future? But we are in the past. So we do have the potential to book some meetings with studio heads while I'm in town. So after we get done recording, I'll get on the horn with my agent.

We'll make this happen to pitch Daddy's Home 3, Colan, St. Vincent. Maybe we can get Todd Haynes on the line. He's probably not busy. see if he's available to direct and possibly write the screenplay. I think that's good. That's a really good idea. We'll get on that after we get done recording. Let's get to our next letter here, and this comes from Mike,

and he's from just north of Boston. Is it possible that the Boston Dallas series might be over by the time this post? You know, Dallas always looks weak as fuck. Maybe I'm making this up, but there's always this, like, there's always this part of any series where you wonder like how Dallas has won any games and you remember, oh, that's why they're the fifth seed. They looked awful. Tingis-Pingus, whatever they're calling Porzingus nowadays.

It looks like Moses Malone out there. It's looking pretty grim. But yeah, yeah, you're right. It actually might be over. But then again, it took like a week and a half to have game won. So we might be working on an NFL-type schedule here for the NBA finals. I'm just trying to find, like, when game two and game three, whatever. Congrats on Boston to you and to you, Mike, and now I'll read your email.

Hello, Stephen and Ian, loyal listener, and I think I have a pod worthy question. What's the best three-year stretch of music? Based on Steve's recent rules, we can cap the era. Let's say the indie rock era. So I guess we're going about 30 years. Sure. I think that's what he's referring to because when I was talking about the Apple Music list, I was like, you should only assess music like in a 30-year block.

And to be honest, I kind of pulled 30 years out of my ass. I mean, it doesn't have to be 30 years, but it seems like a good succinct amount of time. So 30 years. If that's the case, I would have to say 1992 to 1994, but there's also a case for 2003 to 2005. That's interesting. 03 to 05 I like that period but as the best

Yeah great time I mean that does that does encompass both hot fuss and what happened in 2005 silent alarm by block party so yeah why not I'm up it also happened to be when I was 23 to 25

which is the best year for anyone so I'm interested to know how old Mike is so okay I put no effort or research into this, but that's what you are here for. Non-Indy Rock era has to be 66 to 69, right? Cheers, Mike, from just north of Boston. So he's asking, what is the best three-year period for music?

He's thrown out 92-94. He's also talking about 03 to 05. I definitely think 92-94 is a strong candidate. I'm not as sure about 0-3 to 05, although, as you just said, a lot of good records from that time. Anyway, Ian, what is your answer to this? Do you have a good answer for best three-year period? I mean, if you listen to this podcast before, you know I'm not going to acknowledge any music made before Siamese dream. So let's just, the cutoff point is 1993. But speaking of Apple Music, you know, they did call the Miseducation of Lauren Hill the greatest album

ever made of all time. So I feel comfortable saying that, you know, music more or less began in 1998, which just so happens to be my first year at college. And so, um, I was thinking, you know, maybe around those times because I just remember getting my mind blown like every other week. But rather than 98 to 2000, I'm going to kind of flip it and go with 2000 to 2002. Um, one because it's, you know, just a really meaningful time, but also significant in predicting the future. I think with any three year period, we got to look at hinge, like a hinge time. So, something that kind of bridges decades. And, you know, 2000 to 2002, this is the 20th century going into the 21st century.

So you have kind of the end of the 90s because, you know, as we said many times, a decade truly begins in its one year. And, I mean, 2000, I shouldn't have to, you know, recap all the records that came out. But, I mean, you got like DeAngelo Voodoo and Stankonia and Kid A and Supreme Clientel in the Antarctica, which did not make the 2000 Pass and job. I mean, you think about all those albums, and something had to be, like, at best, number six, you know? We all said, like, the New Rock Revolution, whatever you want to call that, with stripes and white stripes and the strokes. We had emo breaking big on radio.

We had, you know, new metal, like, getting artsy with white pony and toxicity. Peak Missy Elliott, Interpol, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, you know, source tags and codes. And I'm going to give a low-key shout to, like, all the, quote, new radio. head British bands, you know, like Cole play and Travis, that an elbow, which I still enjoyed to this day. So I think that was a time where like downloading happened or downloading was happening, but it didn't really wreck the industry yet. So you had that good combination of being, music being like way more accessible, but not

totally accessible. So you still had to buy CDs. So I don't think we can really go wrong picking that time, especially if we're talking like the 21st century. Yeah, I love that answer. And it's hard for me to think of a better answer than that. Yeah, I think that's it. 2000, 2002.

I'm going to go along with that. I'm going to throw this out there not as like the best for music, but for like a music critic writing about what was going on, I thought it was a really interesting three-year period. And that's 2012 to 2014. because that was the period, and we've talked about this before on the show. It is like another hinge period that you're referring to where you see that in the era of the 2000s going away

and being replaced by a different crop, a different generation of artists. So you've got like animal collective and grizzly bear and bands of that ilk. dirty projectors, you know, putting out records that, like, didn't do quite as well as the records that they put out in the late odds. Meanwhile, you've got Lord in the 1975 and Hime's, like, rising up Charlie X, X, X, X, X, X, you know, all these artists rising up at that same moment in time. It's an interesting moment in the music industry as well, because this is when streaming

really became central to how people listen to music. And it's weird to think that, it was only about 10 years ago, because it seems like it's always been true at this point. But like, there was still a world in the early 2000s where people were buying downloads from iTunes, or they were just pirating music all the time. I mean, I was thinking about this recently, like how it was just a regular occurrence, if you were like a music critic, to go to certain sites to download leaks. What that CD? What that got shot to the gods, yeah.

And how streaming just eliminated that. I mean, it's funny when publicists are so concerned about leaks now, because I really feel like people don't care about leaks, unless it's like a huge record that has a ton of anticipation. But I feel like streaming really trained people to just wait for the record to come out because it's a very easily accessible thing. and you don't have to worry about downloading a bunch of, you know, you know, junk on your computer that's going to be attached to the file.

And it really kind of eliminated the desire to pirate music. So anyway, that was all going on in that three-year period of time. So it wasn't like a great period for music because there were actually like a lot of disasters that came out at that time. You know, like it was like a period of like a lot of really bloated pop records. 2013 in particular I remember being like just one big bloated pop record after another coming out but those records were so fun to write about yeah so yeah it was a great period to be a music writer I think yeah plus you could also still get paid to cover like a festival that nobody

heard of right that that was a great that was a great time for me because like I was still like trying to put myself through school and like had to cobble together all these freelance assignments and it was just like hey i want to i want to write about this car seat headrest live show for uh live nation tv or whatever it's called like that was a real or even mean like i want to go to south by southwest and write about you know what's going on at at the at the dorido tent you know and knowing that no one wanted to read this stuff but like people wanted to go to south by southwest and they were able to convince you know them, their editors or whatever, to pay for it.

And it was, yeah. Yeah. That didn't last much longer after that. It was a beautiful time. Yeah. So, yeah. Let's get to our next letter here. This comes from Thomas from London here.

Do you want to read this email? Yeah. So, this is a great question. I love this one. Hey, guys, wondering what you think the biggest drop-off is from one album to the next. I'm thinking of this as this morning I revisited car seat headrest 2020 release making a door less open. Terrible title, very average record.

That's Thomas's viewpoint. Which came a few years after the brilliant twin fantasy and teens of denial. What went wrong there? They've been deadly silent in the four years since as well. Strange. Anyways, got me thinking about the biggest drop off from a classic record. Thanks so much, longtime listener from London. Thomas.

Yeah, so we kind of have two components to the question, he's asking the broader question, what is the biggest drop off from one album to the next? And then he's also talking about car seat headrest and what went wrong there. And I'd like to talk about the car seat headrest part first, because I do think this is a really interesting story with this band. I mean, there was a period, I think, where people talked about them as being like the next great rock band after Teens in Denial and then re-recorded. And then re-recorded twin fantasy. I remember writing a little bit about Carsey Headrest in my book, Twilight of the Gods,

toward the end, like writing about artists that I thought were going to be kind of like the next big artist. And I talked about Carsey Headrest, and I talked about Courtney Barnett. And I feel like they both had weird careers since then. But, yeah, making a door less open. I'm actually, I kind of want to revisit that record. I haven't really listened to it in a while. I remember when it came out feeling like Thomas did

that this was a strange record and not in a good way and a record that felt like it was really weirdly sequenced and unfinished in some way. There was also the whole thing where he was wearing a mask in all the photos. And I think even maybe in interviews he was doing that. There was some kind of persona thing going on. And of course, this is right before COVID happens. So he's wearing a mask in these photos, and then we enter a period where everyone has to wear masks.

It was very strange. I don't know. There's a part of me that wants to revisit that record and feel like maybe it was better than we all thought. I don't know. But apparently they're at work on their next record. I just read an interview that Michael Tedder did. with Will Toledo for Stereogum at the end of 2023, which I think I missed in the moment.

He was talking about the live record that Carcy Hadras put out in December, faces from the masquerade, which I think is actually like a pretty good live record. They put out a couple, yeah. Yeah, they keep putting out live records instead of studio records, spend, you know, now four years since the last album. Have you revisited that album at all?

Like, what are your feelings on that record? Yeah, I mean, I reviewed it back in, I guess, it would have been March 2020. And, yeah, it was a very strange record in terms of sequencing, in terms of production. It was tough to tell whether it was like trying to go for like a big pop record or like the exact opposite. And it's just been strange because, I mean, the whole deal when you were writing about teens of denial is you had to like be very, very clear that it was somehow like the first car see. Headrest album, even though, like, they had teens of style, which came out before. It was a compilation of like 15 band camp albums. But yeah, that was an interesting album because it was a drop-off, but it wasn't a massive, like, full, I mean, I think it was a flop. Don't get me wrong. I think it

was like one of those albums that came out that actually was helped in a weird way by the pandemic because no one kind of remembers some of the flops that were happening around that time. And, you know, when I went and saw Carseat Hed Rest play, I think it was in 2022, Barty's opening, still a pretty huge cult crowd for that. A lot of people in, like, furry suits and onesies. But, you know, like, that album remind me a lot of, because teens of denial remind me so much of the monitor, Titus Andronicus's local business, kind of the same sort of more raw but more simple album that wasn't.

like terrible which can you know put you in a position where you're like oh should i listen to it again but if it was if it was like really terrible then you could perhaps stump for it as being this misunderstood classic but this is in this strange sort of netherworld that i think of with some other albums i reviewed like das racists relax uh where it's like a six point five to seven type album that is it just like oh this thing that I enjoyed them doing so much two years ago has just kind of

turned in a way that's a little weird I think of also the streets the hardest way to make an easy living so I mean those are like those are like the kind of they kind of sit weird but they're not I'd say the biggest drop-offs from a classic debut I mean well I was just going to say like I was looking at

because I reviewed the album as well and I was just refreshing my memory about this album and I had forgotten that there were actually like three different versions of this album, like the digital version, the CD version and the vinyl version had like different takes of songs. So like you could listen to one format and it wouldn't be the same as another format. And like there's a song called Deadlines on that record. And because I think in the promo they sent like each version. Oh yeah. That was such a pain in the ass.

I remember that. So you can listen to each version of it. So I was like comparing different versions of the songs and like the digital version had the best version of deadlines. And I was very confusing. Also the other thing about that record is that they put out the song Hollywood as the first single, which is like possibly the worst Karsie Hadras song of all time. So that really set a weird vibe for that album.

Anyway, I feel like I could talk about making a door less open. this entire episode. But let's get back to the other question. What is the biggest drop off from a debut? Do you have a good answer for this? I mean, from a debut, and I believe, you know, given our age, we both will say Stone Rose is going from the self-titled to second coming. I mean, that's just, I mean, that's just like the example that you come up with if you're familiar with any music at all, because, I mean, so much of it is, you know, the length of the time between it, the kind of self-deprecating song title. The funny thing about

that album is I bought a second coming in 1994 despite never having heard the self-titled because I heard love spreads on MTV and it sounded like Led Zeppelin. And I'm like, oh, this band's pretty fucking cool. But, you know, if we're going to talk about the Stone

Roses, this isn't a debut, but I think the drop-off from the Happy Mondays, Thills and Pills, and Bellyakes to Yes, Please. That one's no two. But that one's more like, you know, like the Alien Lane's advance story where like apparently Robert Pollard spent the entire advance. Like, well, he spent like 20 bucks on beer and pocketed the rest.

This is an album where like they recorded with like the Tom Tom Club and the Barbados and just smoked crack and sold the furniture the entire time. So, I mean, that one's a pretty obvious choice. You know, whenever it's like drugs or like a long period of time between albums or a major band member leaves. You know, those ones are, like, those are the ones that, like, people talk about as, like, legendary drop-offs,

but I do like how this was framed around a car seat headrest album because those ones are more interesting to me in terms of, like, failure, you know what I mean? Yeah, I... Just to get back to what you were saying with the Stone Roses, I mean, that is the most obvious answer. I mean, it's the one that I thought of, too.

I feel like you could say, like, any number of, like, 90s rappers. Yes. In here, too, though, like, I think that was a pretty common thing. I mean, like Wu Tang, like Wu Tang Forever. Oh, I love that album. It is, I mean, but it's like so long.

It's like, I feel like there's like a lot of like fat on that record. Oh, absolutely. Very bloated album. Like in the outline, you wrote The Dogfather. Yes. By Snoop Dogg. I think that's a great answer too. I mean, because you have doggy style, brilliant record.

And you just feel like this record's so good that you don't even need another Snoop Dogg record. and then he proved it with the Dogfather, even though that album cover is great. I remember seeing that at the record store and being like, this album's going to be amazing, and he had like the Godfather font on the cover, and then the record just wasn't very good. I would love to do an entire episode about the next album he made.

The game is to be sold, not told, where he signed a no limit, which is that's a fascinating failure. Whereas, like, the Dogfather is sort of like, you know, Mace's double up or any number of, like, Wu-Tang follow-ups, like solo albums, like Ray Kwan's, and Mobularity. And I mean, those were, those I remember very vividly

because, like, I paid $18 for them. Right. Yeah, there were a lot of those, like, 90s rap records where you, like, love the debut, and then, like, the next record would come out, and you spent, like, the $18 to get it. And you're just listening to it,

and you're like, you know in your heart, it's not very good, but you're talking yourself into thinking it is good, because the pain of losing $18 is worse. Yeah, this is the only CD I can buy this entire fucking month, man. I'm going to, I talk myself into loving so much music of that era. All right, let's get to our next letter, and this one comes from Josh H from Chicago.

So thank you, Josh H. Where's that new Queens of the Stone Age album, buddy? That's true. It's true. Although, I mean, it would be like Josh H from the desert. desert. Yeah. If there was Josh Ome.

Howdy Indycast, folks. Josh H here. He keeps calling himself Josh H. Very interesting. I got like three, three buddy. I'm going to assume that like Josh A, if he's like the typical age of the Indycast listener, he might be like a Jewish guy who grew up in the 90s where like you had five friends named Josh.

Yeah, I guess. There's like a Josh L, maybe a Josh S in the Fenn group. Josh H here. an indie bag, male cast question. What are some instances when you two as listeners enjoy the homage revival music more than the music from the original movement? Context, I'm listening to Ducks Limited New Record. Very good record, by the way.

A band I knew nothing about but had seen their name splattered across a few blogs, Spotify playlist. A few listens in, it dawned on me that one likely inspiration for the record was probably the Feeleys, the Good Earth, which is another really good record. Sure enough, an article on Brooklyn Vegan quotes them stating, The Feelys are the greatest American jangle pop band. I then realized that while I really liked this Duck's Limited record, I never really cared for the Good Earth or Latter-day Feelys or much jangle pop at all, for that matter.

I then thought about how, wait, I then thought about how, band for band, I'm enjoying a lot more of the new shoegays, dive deceiver, a country western feeble little horse that has emerged in the last eight years or so than the early 90 shoe gaze where I cut myself as a my bloody Valentine only dude and then he put sorry slow dive in parentheses which I'm glad you did because I'm sure slow dive is listening right now

but they're very sad are there any instances of genres where you two as listeners feel the latter day stuff is better than the original day stuff Do you ever wonder if there is a mysterious generational DNA that ensures aesthetically similar music will more likely connect with listeners of the generation that spawned it? And then he signs off Josh H. from Chicago. This is a good question. He's asking, you know, are there instances where someone is inspired by music from the past

and you actually like the homage better than the record that they were inspired by? Are there examples of that for you, Ian? Absolutely. And I mean, I reviewed a lot of them. I'm thinking of like the first pains of being pure at heart record or the first wild nothing record. You know, like people who are, I don't know, five to ten years older than me would just say, like, yeah, this is fine and all. But it's like a rip off of, you know, insert 80s like indie pop band. And yeah, that might be true.

But I think there's something to be said about experiencing stuff firsthand as opposed to having this wisdom handed down to you. And so I relate to this question a lot because so much music I like is inspired by Sonic Youth. You aren't really a genre in the same way that Josh framed this question. But just a search, such a massive influence in terms of how guitar sound and how bands operate. But, you know, so much of like what gets passed down about Sonic Youth, which is the New York exceptionalism and like how cool they are and, you know, how they thought like the smashing pumpkins were whack. kind of kept me distant from them. And I don't have the same hangups with a lot of the bands that came after the fact. Like, Trail of Dead, source tags and codes.

That was, you remember, like, when Kid A came out, you'd get, like, these snobs saying, oh, that's just, like, a square pusher or Apex twin rip off. Like, that was what would happen was Trail of Dead and Sonic Youth, but, like, I don't give a shit. This rules, you know, and also I'm 22, so you can't tell me shit. Similarly, I had the same experience with Interpol when I was 22. and, you know, like, Joy Division. Like, first of all, I think it's pretty clear that Interpol had more in common, I guess, with, like, Echo and the Bunnymen and Chalions than Joy Division.

And the Cure. Yeah, absolutely. I would say the cure more than Joy Division. Yeah. So, that, you know, I've come to appreciate Joy Division, but, like, you know, when you're just experiencing this kind of genre of music for the first time, you get to kind of, like, frame it. And, you know, there's no, like, I mean, look, we talk about, like,

2000 to 2002 being our favorite era of all time. You can never account for your brain still having plasticity and having formative experiences. And I think that's true with Django Pop as well. I tried with the feelies. I mean, it's like, yeah, this is cool,

but I can't see myself like being super into it, you know, in the same way that I did with, let's say, like a real estate album that I experienced in real time. So you have come around on Sonic Youth since, right? Yeah. I mean, look, not like the type who's like NYC Ghost and Flowers. Like I will never, ever say that shouldn't have gotten a 0.0.

I don't care if I disagree with the review of the content, but I love the fact that Pitchfork gave a Sonic Youth album a zero. But yeah, I've come around on them. I like the Kim Corny now from this year. I like a couple of, you know, the more jamier singer-songwritery stuff that Thurston Moore has done. You know, there was a period of time where Steve Shelley was on a bunch of Sun-Kill Moon album. So yeah, you know, I'm Sonic Youth band, but like still at the same time, I don't love everything they represent.

So for me, this question, I'm going to qualify this a little bit because if we want to talk about something like Django Pop, for instance, I think that if you look at the top of the genre, like the best bands that do that. And I'll say the Feely's being maybe at the top of the Django Pop thing. It's like I always really like that stuff a lot. Where it gets a little dicier is like when you start digging into like the lesser known bands from the past that you hear on compilations and that the real heads will insist is like the best music. And you listen to that stuff and that usually ends up being underwhelming. So if we're talking about Django Pop, I'm in agreement with the letter writer here where I tend to like a lot of newer Django Pop than I do like Django Pop. then I do like jango pop records that I hear from the 80s. But again, it tends to be the more record collector obscure versions of that

that I tend not to connect with. I would say the same thing too about like psychedelic pop from the 60s. I mean, look, I love the Beatles, the Beach Boys, the zombies, you know, the OGs, the top of the mountain of that. But then, you know, if you dig into the compilations, and there's millions of them, you know, just compiling obscurities from that time. A lot of times that stuff ends up being

kind of disappointing. But then I'll hear like a newer band, you know, aping that type of sound and I end up really loving it. So I guess in that respect, I do like homages more than the original article, but again, I feel like usually the people who are credited with being the best at something

like deserve that credit. You know, if we want to talk about shoegays, for instance, like yeah, like my bloody Valentine like, yeah, they're like the best at that. They're the best at it. But there's a lot of Shugays bands from their generation that I think are pretty boring. And I tend to like a lot of newer Shugay stuff. And the difference with a lot of newer Shugay stuff is that it tends to be a little more muscular

and a little more harder rocking. It's not quite as like floaty as a lot of that older stuff is. And I tend to like Shugay's music that has a little bit. little more umph to it. I gotta ask then if you're a big fan of the first two ride records, because that is like the loudest drums you'll ever hear on a shoegaze record. Well, yes, yeah, nowhere and then going blank again are those records. And going blank again in particular, I mean, the first song, leave them all behind is like maybe my favorite shoegay song of all time. Just an incredible song. And the rest of the record is pretty good,

to what's actually really good the record I think after that I think it was called Tarantula or something like that okay maybe it was the record after that it was I think Shadow of Light or something they transitioned from Shugays

to being more of like a Carnival of Light yes that's it Carnival of Light that's it where they were they kind of got away from Shugays and they became almost like the 60s Revival Rock type band yeah it was like method acting for like one of the dudes to eventually join Oasis, so.

But I like that record. It sounds like a lot. It sounds like the birds, which sounds like the birds is one of my favorite genres of music. So anyway, that's a good record, too. Let's get to our last letter here. And this comes from Max in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have we had Nova Scotia? I don't know.

I feel like we did, but maybe we didn't. Well, we did talk about Sarah McLaughlin on our previous episode. So, yeah, I think we're kind of on a Nova Scotia streak. So she's from Nova Scotia? She is from Nova Scotia. See, when I hear Nova Scotia, I think of Sloan. Okay. I love that band because they're from Nova Scotia.

I'm a big Sloan fan. They have a song called BNS on their album between the bridges. Great song. Another great album opener. Let's read this letter. Congratulations, Stephen, on the new book. I've had it pre-ordered for months. You're one of my season past authors.

Thank you very much. What are some of your favorite music books of the last few years? Are there any underrated books that you or Ian think deserve more recognition? Are you two fans of the 33 and a third series? And what are your favorites from that series? And it says, curious which album Ian would want to cover in a 33 and a third book. Yeah, I mean, I think the book tour needs to hit Nova Scotia.

You know, Halifax, that's where Sarah McLaughlin's from. Like, yeah, I think we can do it. You know, hit the off markets, but... I love it. I love it. Thank you, Max, for your letter. So, yeah, so he asked a series of questions here. Yes.

Favorite music books? And then the 33 and the third series, what are our thoughts on that? I don't know what order you want to tackle those questions. Well, I mean, I think I want to start from the beginning because it's like, you know, it's like, congratulations, Stephen, on your new book. And, you know, you're one of my season past authors because you, you know, put out books on a regular basis. And I wonder if Ian would put out a 33 and a third. So this is an interesting question because, you know, I often, like, as much as I hate to say, as I often find myself reading a lot of music books begrudgingly, a lot of that being, you know, due to my own insecurities about putting out. like a book proposal as we speak and you know not being like one of the 12 people who are putting out emo books in the past 12 years but you know beyond that like I feel like um a lot of music writers I enjoy it's kind of similar to the transition of I like singles artists but can they put together an album and sometimes like books get expanded to book length kind of against its own will

or it gets too academic or too voicy so I didn't have a pretty short least. You know, I liked sellout by Dan Ozzy. I love The Elephant's Sixth book, Endless, Endless. And, you know, it's been pretty difficult for oral histories to live up to the standards set by by Meet Me in the Bathroom. Love Rob Harvilla and Tom Brihan's books because they were, you know, extensions of Collins I already enjoy. And I guess, can we consider how to write one book to be a music book? How to write one song. Or how to write one song. Yeah. I could use that too. that's actually the book I was going to mention too that's probably my favorite music book of the last few years

it's certainly the one I've thought the most about and this is the book by Jeff Tweedy it's his second book he's written like three books in the last five years or so but that book I think it's a great book about songwriting but it's also just a great book about creativity and like how to approach it how to think about it and again like I

think about that book quite a bit and there's like a lot of really good insights and advice in that book. So that would probably be my number one of the last, you know, of the 2020s, let's say. There's another book, too, I want to mention. And this one, I think, hasn't gotten a lot of shine. It truly is underrated, I think. It's Franz Nicolet's Someone Should Pay for Your Pain. And this book is actually a novel that Franz wrote.

and it's about a singer-songwriter who's sort of like a lower-tier singer-songwriter and it's a fiction book but there's like a lot of stuff in the book about what it's like to be a touring musician especially if like you're not making a lot of money on the road and it's such a good book

you know Franz I mean as you would probably expect from him Franz of course the piano player and the hold steady also puts his own records. It really gives you, like, a sense of what it's like to be, like, in your 40s or even, like, your 50s and still trying to make it in music. Really, really good book. One of the better, like, rock novels I've ever read.

Franz also has a book coming out later this year. It's called Band People. This is, like, a non-fiction book. But it's kind of similar to his novel in that he's, like, interviewing a lot of, like, sidemen and studio musicians and just like working musicians, people who are not famous, but are in the music industry. And it's just such a fascinating thing because usually when you read a book about musicians, they're all famous musicians. You never really read books about musicians who are not famous, you know, who are just making a living, trying to do what they do. And Franz really

brings that to life. And he did that in his novel. And he did that in his novel. And, now he's doing it in this nonfiction book, banned people coming out later this year. So those books jump out to me from the 2020s. Regarding the 33 and a third series, it's funny because when I think about like my kidday book and this Born in the USA book, I kind of think of them as like 33 and a third books,

but like on a bigger scale. Because I'm writing about like one album. And I have like a little bit more space to do it. And also it's a hardcover book. It's not just like a little pocket paperback thing. So I feel like I'm kind of doing that with those books, but, you know, again, like maybe on a little bit bigger canvas. That series in general, I mean, it's very hit or miss. It really depends on who's writing the book.

And I have to say, honestly, that, like, of the books I've read, I've disliked more of them than I've liked. And, like, there's one book in particular that, like, I hated. And I won't say what it is, but it was a... I think I know which one. Do you? I don't know. It's about an album that I love. Oh, okay. It's not that one then. The author just took a totally condescending approach to the record, and it really turned me off. I'm like, why are you writing about this album?

It's an album that you could easily make fun of and have a lot of fun with. But I feel like if you write a 33 and a third book, you should have affection for, the record, even if you're criticizing it. And this author didn't have any affection for it, and it really bug me reading the book. I'm just thinking of, like, ones I've enjoyed. I liked, Hank Steamer wrote a book about chocolate and cheese,

the Wien record. I thought that was pretty good. Yeah. Today they announced a 30th anniversary reissue of that album. Oh, as we're recording. There was one other record, there was one other book I was going to mention from that. series, but I can't remember it.

I liked Matt LeMay wrote a book about Elliot Smith's Exo that I liked, and the other one I really enjoyed, similar to Endless Endless, was the one about a neutral milk hotel in the airplane over the sea. There's just such a great little piece that they mentioned about how they were working at some

movie theater in Athens, and they would live off literal bags of popcorn like Homer Simpson when he goes to watch Honk if you're horny. So that was a great one as well. Those are the only two I have. currently on my bookshelf. I should mention too. I just remember what I was going to say. Jeffrey Himes wrote one about Born in the USA that I think is good. And I put it in the acknowledgments of my book because I read his book and I enjoyed it. So those two I would say I liked. But yeah, there's a lot that I don't like in that series, I have to say. I don't know.

I mean, it's tough. I feel like they hire like a lot of academics to write those books. And they ended up reading like term papers a lot of the time. And I'm just not a fan of that kind of music writing. So those books, I appreciate that they exist, but they're not for me. Yeah, I actually did. Again, 2007 was a year where, you know, I didn't. I don't have a lot of very clear memories from 2007, but I feel like I might have drummed up a pitch for Jayze's The Blueprint, which, you know, that's a, I don't know why I chose that one, but, yeah, I think that's an example of like, you rejection being protection because like gosh it would be very weird if like the one book I had out in the world was on you know Jay Z's the blueprint of all things um but that you know I've always thought

about pitching never followed through with it um and now I see they're doing genre series and I can't find this but I did see something on Twitter somebody mentioning that they are doing the Midwest emo one uh I don't remember who it is but I do remember that um I do remember that person like doesn't follow me or whatever So they, you know, if they're an emo writer who doesn't find, they probably hate me so much. Wow. But, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'll read it to see what it's about. But, yeah, I think that someone kind of scoot me on that.

But it's okay. Hopefully if things work out, you'll be reading me a lot more on that particular subject. Ian's coming for you 33 and a third. He's coming. You better be ready. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We're going to skip Recommendation Corner this week. Maybe we'll double up on it next week.

Who knows? But thank you for listening. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.