Indiecast - Indiecast Mailbag: Favorite Bassists, The Weakerthans + Beirut (The Band)

Episode Date: October 13, 2023

For the past several weeks, Steven and Ian have planned to do a mailbag segment on the show. But they always end up yapping for too long, and the segment inevitably ends up getting bumped. This week, the guys finally rectified the situation by addressing some emails from their loyal listeners.What do Indiecast listeners want to know about? Our first letter concerns the matter of seated shows vs. standing-room only shows, and which is preferable (16:55). You can probably guess what the 40something-year-old hosts of Indiecast think about this, though Steven makes a case for seated shows providing "guaranteed real estate" that you don't have to defend if you leave temporarily to get a beer or go to the bathroom. From there, Steven and Ian finally address the email about The Weakerthans, and give their opinion on the beloved Canadian band (25:54). They also talk about their favorite indie-rock bassists of the last 25 years (39:08), and the legacy of the indie-folk band Beirut (47:24).In Recommendation Corner (56:39), Ian talks about the Abe Vigoda offshoot Cupid & Psyche while Steven recommends the vibe-y Chicago rock act Squirrel Flower.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 159 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we respond to email sent by you, the Indicast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's still sorry he got married instead of reviewing illusory walls. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? you know we're referring to one of my favorite pieces of indie cast lore where uh this uh one twitter user like i took i i actually followed through on not being on twitter for a week when i got married and went on my honeymoon in 2021 and like the first thing i saw when i got back is there was like some sort of factual error in the pitchfork review of the world is illusory walls and someone was like that's uh you know that's what happens when ian decides to get married instead of reviewing illusory walls. And you know what?

Come 2031, maybe I'll like do a 10-year anniversary piece instead of going on a honeymoon or something. Or maybe I'll just delay the honeymoon. Like I, believe me, for the illusory walls truthers, which maybe it's the third best world is album. I'm here for you. I'm just biding my time.

So, and I bring this up because it's your two-year wedding anniversary. It very much is. Not today. I mean, well, it was yesterday and we're going. to Santa Barbara this weekend, but I just want to be very, very clear that I am not recording a podcast during my anniversary vacation. I'm just trying to remember if I've ever recorded an episode on a wedding anniversary. I'm sure I have.

I'm sure I have. And you're going to go see Wilco and Death Cat for Cutie with the Postal Service. Well, not together. Those are two separate shows for your anniversary. weekend. So you're really doing the middle-aged indie rock fan anniversary weekend. I love it. Yeah, it's really incredible. Also, we're seeing M83 tonight. But this weekend we're doing, we're going to Santa Barbara. It just so happened that, like, Wilco is playing on Friday night with My Brightest Diamond opening. Like, that's a real remember some guys type name. And even,

my brightest diamond was still a thing. A going. concern. This is very cool. That's like very 2006 rock. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like not to be confused with Lavender Diamond. But even better is for Death Cap Postal Service. Pedro the Lion is opening, which. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, look, if you've heard me talk about, you know, my wife and my relationship with her in the past, like, you know, Pedro the Lion's like a major, major thing for us. And what I'm hoping is, so it's, you know, Death Cap playing transatlanticism, Postal Service doing give up. I really hope that Pedro the Lion does control in its entirety

so it's like the show itself is kind of like inception where it goes backwards and you know you begin with like the album about like divorce and like you know dissolution kids and like a priest saying life is meaningless and then you end with such great heights

I think that would be really awesome conceptually so yeah do you think like the aging indie rock band community got together and they thought let's play some shows in Santa Barbara. It's around Ian Cohen's wedding anniversary. I think it'd be really sweet of us that we could do this for Ian, play some shows.

I don't, like, what are you going to do in Santa Barbara during the day? Is there like, that's not wine country? This is how poorly I know California. There's no wine places in Santa Barbara, right? Is that more like, go to the beach? Sonoma County, like Solvang. It's just like a really nice part of California. Like my friend, like one of my friends, like a guy, you know, I've gone up to Santa Barbara Bowl and I've seen like the 1975 and like the national with Phoebe Bridgers opening.

Like that's how long ago it was with this dude. He's like a doctor and he's like, yeah, I'm still like kind of like middle class in this city. It's just a part of California. We're like, it's just really, really affluent. And the drug scene there is almost entirely prescription pills. Oh, there you go. That's the classic. That's, we know, yeah, just completely zonked out on, like, you know,

Xanax and whatnot, not like Oxy, but it's just like, yeah, like the wine and pills crowd. So it's going to be a chill audience up there in Santa Barbara. It's not even going to be a seated audience. People are going to be, like, laying down on cots. Yeah. Enjoying these shows. We're actually recording this episode a day earlier than we normally do.

We normally record on Thursday. We're recording on Wednesday this week because after we get done recording, I'm doing my own little concert excursion. I'm going by myself. Well, I'm going to meet some people where I'm going. I'm going to Milwaukee, Wisconsin for two days. I'm going to see two Bob Dylan shows back to back. Very excited.

I've not seen Bob Dylan since the pandemic. The current tour that he's on, I've heard many, excited to be finally going in person. I'm finally going to Milwaukee. I haven't been to Milwaukee much at all in the past several years. I used to live there. Milwaukee has changed dramatically since I was there. I basically left.

I've been there more recently than you. Well, I was there this summer for a few days, but I was more in West Dallas than I was in Milwaukee proper. For people who know the Milwaukee area, West Dallas, of course, is west of Milwaukee. It's a suburb. I've got family that lives in that area. So that whole downtown area has been transformed really since I left. I left like right before the Janus era of Milwaukee. And like Janus really has spearheaded like a transformation of downtown Milwaukee.

They have that new arena, which isn't new anymore. But I don't think that was there when I moved in 2014. So excited to hang out in Milwaukee. Excited to see Bob Dylan. He's doing this thing where he's playing city-specific covers. in each town that he's like when he was at Kansas City he played the song Kansas City Oh

He was in Chicago He played born in Chicago So there's all the speculation about What is he going to play Milwaukee There's a old country song Many people have done it Jerry Lee Lewis Maybe did the most famous version called What Made Milwaukee Famous has made a loser out of me

That's a song that people have speculated Bob might be playing There's a Dali Parton Porter Wagoner song Called Milwaukee Here We Come could be that. I'm seeing a lot of jokes about Bob maybe playing a violent femme song. I would love it if he played a Citizen King song. Fuck, yeah.

Let's show some serious Milwaukee knowledge. Drop Better Days by Citizen King. Maybe a Guff song. Anyone out there know the Guffs? This is remembering some Wisconsin guys. Yeah, that's like, like comparatively, like the Bodines or like the Rolling Stones compared to them. Yeah, the Guffs would be like the Wilco. the Bodine's Rolling Stones.

Yeah, if you lived in Wisconsin in the late 90s, early 2000s, and you didn't see the Guffs at Summerfest at least once, I don't know what you were doing back then. So yeah, we're both seeing some shows here. It's going to be a good time. Yeah, I'm stoked about this Bob Dylan tour because I look at the tour itinerary, and he's playing places like Huntington, West Virginia, and Roanoke.

Like, I really, I mean, I really want to. wonder how he's going to honor like Roanoke, Virginia in his covers. There's not a lot. Seven Mary three, they are from the Tidewater region, not Roanoke. So he's shit out of luck. He probably would fudge it and play a Virginia song. So maybe he'll play Sweet Virginia by the Stones or, you know, there's a lot of Virginia songs.

But yeah, I don't know. I'm excited. By the time that this episode posts, I will have seen both of those shows already. So we'll know what he's played. but we can use this episode as a document of my pre-Bob Dylan Milwaukee trip and listen to it after I've already done it. Can we do a quick fantasy draft update here? I guess.

I'm not feeling super optimistic about where I'm at, but let's just do it. Well, okay, so you, you know, Sufion was your number one pick. Right now he's at 87. I'm not a critic. Which feels like an underprivile. performance. This is a little bit. I mean,

we all, like, it's, yeah, there's nothing but love surrounding it. And, you know, it's,

it's a great record, but it just reminds, like, now mind you, I picked this album mostly as like a defensive mood because I feel if I didn't, you would. But it's like,

people talk about, like, guys like Matt Stafford or, like, Jared Goff, like these guys who are like winners, but it doesn't necessarily reflect in fantasy points.

And I'm feeling like, Like that's what I'm working with right now, where it's like this album's going to do like gangbusters in the year end lists. But right now it just feels a little bit underperformy. A little bit. I mean, not dramatically. No. You would have wanted Sufion to hit a 90. Yes, I really, really felt like that was going to be the case.

And he's almost there. But, uh... Yeah. And I almost wonder like if some of the reviews would have been rewritten, like, the following week. Oh, absolutely. Because the narrative with that album is really strong. You know, you've got the heartbreak of Sufion's personal life. You know, he was posting about how he dedicated this album to his partner who recently died.

Very sad story, very touching. Of course, Sufian has had his own health issues lately. So you feel like people are pulling for Sufian. This is an album that people seem to really like. So I think you're right. The 87 doesn't seem totally. reflective of the response to this record. But unfortunately, this is the only metric we have.

We're not doing your end list. We're doing Metacritic scores. You got an 87. Still a strong score. You got Jamela Woods and Lorraine coming out this week. I checked Metacritic this morning. There currently isn't a score for either album, so we don't know how they're doing. I would imagine that they'll both do mid-80s, at least.

Yeah, I'm feeling like it's like one of those things where you're just like watching your scores the whole time. It's like, fuck, man. I really hope this player gets a garbage time touchdown, you know? Like, you're really belaboring this metaphor, but, you know, like, I listen to the, I've heard the Lorraine Alman Full. It's really good. I don't know if it's like a massive leap over fatigue, which I was kind of banking on. So, yeah, I mean, I'm feeling positive, but I'm feeling like mid-80s, and I'm just more concerned because I think Arm and Hammer, like, they are really over-perfeiting.

formed. Armin, okay, so we'll look at my team right now. I'm at 3.46 total. I've had four of my albums come out. I can't remember who my fifth is, by the way. It's Samfa, was it him? Sampha, yeah. Okay, that's my number five.

Okay. So my four that have come out so far, Olivia Rodriguez, 91, Mitzkeya-90. Those are my top two picks. Very happy with the performance there. Armand-hammer 86. Very strong. By the way, I'm still taking grief from people in the emails because I didn't recognize that Billy Woods as an arm and hammer,

like when I was talking about that draft. I got an email this week. I got to do your research email this week. Do your research with the exclamation point there. So very unpopular. Look, I acknowledge I screwed that up. I should have known that going in. I don't know why I didn't know that.

That was a total brain frog moment. But, you know, you get on the mic. you don't remember everything always. It's just the way it is. But it's my mistake. I own it. You know, just know that I recognize it

before you send me another do your research email. But I think that helped you out because when we did that episode, I'm like, nah, people really, like,

they put all their chips in on, like, maps. So they're not going to, like, be super hyped about yet another Arm and Hammer album. And, like,

lo and behold, here we are. So I think this is, like, the kind of ignorance that, like, worked in your favor. There you go.

And then Slow Pulp, it was my number four, came in at 79. I'll take that for a number four pick. 79 very strong. It's possible that a late review will still roll in on that, maybe bump me up to 80. I'm going to do some prognostication for your team. So you've got the 87 for Sufion. Let's say Jamila Woods and Lorraine both get 85s,

which I think is very realistic. Yeah. So that would be 85 plus 85 is 170. plus 87, that's 257, that would put you only about 90 or so behind me with like, Sampa. With Taylor Swift and Sampa. Oh, yeah. Oh, right.

So, I think this is a ballgame. I think, I think this is going to, because you've got, the one I have left is Marnie Stern. And realistically, I'm thinking like 80 to 82 with her. I think low 80s is realistic, maybe high. 70s. So, and you've got that Taylor Swift, like, you know, bangor still in the gun here.

I think that's going to be a big one. That's going to be your 90 plus. Yeah, Tua versus Bears. That's what we're looking at, right? Or two a versus the Broncos. That's what we're looking at right here. So I wouldn't, I think you're actually doing pretty well. I think this is going to be a shootout to the end here.

And the Taylor Swift, that's going to make the difference, I think. if critics are still totally in the tank for Taylor Swift, and they're like, we just want to write another glowing review of 1989, and I think a lot of people will. Yeah, or maybe the first, you know. Yeah, we'll see. That's true. Well, I mean, I think 80, well, for Pitchfork.

They didn't review it famously the first time. That was such a big deal because no one else was writing about that album in 2014. Zero. So it was really bad that Pitchfork didn't review it. So I don't know We'll see what happens I think it's going to be a close one though This is going to be an exciting

Down to the Wire Battle between the two of us I concur Did we ever figure out what happens To like what the person who wins gets Yeah I don't know if we bet anything You know we did not That we didn't think that far ahead

Well you know I don't know Breaking Rights I guess is the win Yeah that in two bucks Will get you a cup of coffee Maybe we just do an episode where like, you know, we got to find like you're, like, I either got to like listen to a bunch of fish bootlegs or you got to listen to a bunch of screamo or whatever. I don't know. Maybe the, maybe our mailbag will help us out. Maybe, maybe listeners will suggest.

Yeah, yeah, listeners, let us know, like, what should the winner get from our fantasy matchup here? We'll probably do another fantasy matchup. I'm thinking, because I like this format. I don't know how you feel. We can, we can discuss. Okay, okay, we both love it. think going into like early 2024 when there's nothing to talk about. We'll figure out some other fantasy draft thing.

That'll be a good way to fill up space in this podcast during the dead zone of January and February. Had some laughs, killed some time. Yeah, it's going to be good. Let's get to our mailbag. And it's about time because we've been piling up letters. And we've just like gone late in a lot of our episodes. lately. So like we have like a mailbag planned and then we run out of time. It's like the Jimmy Kimmel Matt Damon thing like where he always gets bumped supposedly. It's like the running joke

on that show. Here, uh, it's not a joke. It's for real. So it's great to get to our mailbag. We've got a bunch of the letters here. If you want to hit us up, it's always great to hear from our listeners, even if they're telling me to do more research. Hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Again, Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. We eagerly await to hear from you. Do you want to read our first letter? I do. I do.

So, yeah, this comes to us from Arou in D.C. So he lives in, or they live in D.C. So hi, Stephen and Ian, I live in D.C. And recently bought tickets for a tie... Okay, is it Ty Siegel or Ty Seagall? See, this is another one. Okay. I think it's Ty Seagall.

All right. So, yeah, let's go with that. I live in D.C. and recently bought tickets for a Thai Seagall concert at the new 930 club-affiliated venue, the Atlantis. It's a small nightclub, and I was psyched to be able to see him in that environment. Tickets sold out fairly quickly. A few weeks later, received an email from Ticketmasters saying they're moving the concert to a larger space, Lincoln Theater. And normally I'd be happy that an artist was securing their bag, but this is now a seated venue. I reluctantly requested a refund, as that's not the vibe for me. My elder millennial niece haven't given out yet.

What are your thoughts on seating for acts that require a floor? Who would you suck it up to go see regardless? I love this question. I do too. And I like the idea that our listener thought that we would actually not go to a show because it was seated. There was some sort of temporary amnesia about us being two 40-year-old plus people who love seated shows. and if anything would not go to a show because it wasn't seated. Although, you know, I don't think I've ever made a decision.

No. Based on seating, whether to go. And I've certainly never bought a ticket and then backed out based on the seating situation. Have you ever done that? No, I love how, like, you know, I love how niche principle this is. I mean, like, I know it's like an obvious and unavoidable pun. Like, you know, this is a thing that he's taken a stand for. But, yeah, I have never even considered this.

I always love when our mailbag when our mailbag questions are about things that are this specific. I love it. I'm just not, I'm not going to go to this show and I'm really excited about because I have to sit down. Right.

Well, and the thing about this show too is that I'm sure, even though that there are seats that almost everyone is going to be standing anyway. Right. They're just going to be standing at their seat. But I doubt people, are going to be sitting during the Thai Segal show or Thai Siegel show.

But, you know, I actually, you know, from just anecdotal evidence, I don't think that this is totally unique. I have talked to people who have said, well, I hate that venue because there's seats. And there's always shows at that venue, and I hate it because I don't like seats. I think that the anti-seat people, that's like a real thing. Oh, Shirley. And I have to say, like, for me, you know, I, like, like having a seat, but it's not just about the sitting down thing. I mean, again, more often than

not when I have a seat, I end up standing. You know, when I saw you two at the sphere, to name a recent example, I had a seat, but I was standing the entire show because I wanted to stand and also everyone around me was standing. If everyone had been sitting down, I would have been sitting down because you don't want to be like the one person standing. But I stood the entire show. The thing about a seat though, is that it's guaranteed real estate in the venue. You know that you have this space and someone else is not going to take it. Say, you have to go to the bathroom or you decide to go get a beer. That to me is the stressful part of like the standing room only situation. And maybe this is more of like a Minnesota thing. But like when I go to like shows here in Minnesota,

it's a very kind of passive aggressive situation like where people are like tree trunks and they don't want to move if you have to get out of your spot to go to the bathroom so you have to fight your way out and then you have to like fight your way back and hope that your spot is still there and even if you're like with a group of people

and they're guarding the spot it can be very difficult and I just feel like I like the just the state of mind, the security of knowing that if I go leave and I have a seat, it's going to be there. It's just like a stress reliever for me. So that to me is like the joy of the seat,

not just sitting down, but the real estate, the guaranteed real estate of the show. Times like these, I really wish we did a live call-in show because we'd be like, hey, we're Minnesota listeners out there. What do you think? What do you think? about this tree trunking here um yeah i mean the the shows i mentioned i'm pretty sure they're all seated and i'm like super stoked for that um you know that i think with like tie seagull like yeah

people are going to be standing but also okay so with a show like this i'm thinking of like rock bands that have been around for like 10 or 15 years i think you kind of forfeit the the need to have a pit. I mean, like, and I think this is even true when I've seen like, Tushay Amore, or even like the Thursday reunion shows, it's like, you get a lot of people who are like, you know, 30, 40 or better and feel like, well, you know, it's a, it's a rock band, it's a hardcore band. We still got to do a pit. Like, no, no, we don't. And I mean, I think with Ty Siegel, like, I don't doubt that he has, you know, generated a younger audience, not just like people who love like goodbye bread or whatever. But, um, I mean, I don't doubt that. Um, like,

I was talking to this guy, this 30-something dude who's seeing the Brian Jones Town massacre this weekend. He's like, yeah, I got to see him because, like, I don't know when Anton Newcomb's going to die. Look, I think he's going to be the guy who's like around until he's 80 or 90 making stupid posts. But, yeah, I mean, I feel like he's outlived his I'm going to die period. Yeah. Like he's, that was like 20 years ago. He's still going strong. Yeah, I would kind of do.

He's never going to die. Right. He's going to be in his 90s. and still doing Brian Jones Town Massacre shows. Yeah, but I think that, like, he's like, this guy said to me, and he's a psych rock fan, he's like, yeah, psych rock's for teenagers. And so, like, there's going to be a new generation of people who are there for, like, Ty Siegel, but, like, at the same time, I don't think, I don't think of Ty Siegel as, like,

a pit show. I think of that as, like, oh, he's doing an eight-minute guitar solo, like, maybe now I use the bathroom. But, you know, what I, what I need, though, is some clarity. because, you know, we're talking about, like, seated shows, you know, like floor shows, and then we're talking about, like, seated shows. And then you mentioned the U2 sphere experience. And I'm thinking of the time where I saw the 1975 at, like, an outdoor amphitheater where it's seated.

And you get a seat, but then you get the people standing up in front of you, and which means no one can enjoy their seat. I could, you could argue that's, like, the best of both worlds. But for us, it's, like, the worst of both worlds because, like, we want to sit, but, like, we're not allow to. Like, we have the opportunity to sit, and now we got to, like, sit behind, like people who are not going to sit down for the entire show.

Yeah, we know where we're going to be when we come back from the bathroom. But, yeah, I think I'm in, like, my full-blown, seated era. Yeah, you know, I was just thinking about the time I saw Crosby Stills in Nash, like, years ago. And the pit in that show was just fucking, like, let's open up this fucking pit, you know,

Well, the thing about that show is that most people want to sit because they're all like geriatric baby boomers. And then there's people like me, a geriatric Gen Xer. But there was like, there's occasionally like one old hippie that wants to stand and kind of, you know, groove out to Woodstock and carry on and all that stuff. And there was an old hippie standing in front of me. And there was an old hippie behind me that was just super pissed. at this standing hippie, and they were exchanging words. I thought there was going to be like a cane fight to the death, you know, like cane jousting between these two old hippies.

I mean, my philosophy is if you want to stand, you should be able to stand, you know, and it might be annoying to me because I want to sit, but I'm not going to get too upset about that. But that is an interesting wrinkle in the whole kind of sit-stand seating versus standing-room-only thing, because even if you do have a seat, sometimes you have to, you have to, You have to stand anyway. You have to kind of go with the crowd in those situations. But again, I love the real estate.

I get stressed out about having to get out of my spot and back to the spot. I just think I don't want to deal with that. So, yeah, again, I'm pro real estate. Pro real estate, the ban, pro real estate it chose. Let's get to our next letter. This is a controversial letter. This is a letter that we have bounced, I think, three times. Yeah.

Not, you know, just because we ran out of time. We've referenced this letter in a previous episode. But I think it's time for us now to get down into it here. It's from Mitch in Winnipeg. And he writes, hi, Stephen Ian, huge fan of the pod. It is the 20th anniversary of the Weaker Then's classic album Reconstruction Site. Now, I think we're about a month past that. Right?

Because we bumped this letter a bunch. But, you know, it was recently. And I am overcome by waves of the rest. nostalgia as a native Winnipegur. Is that how they say it? I mean, I'm going to trust Mitch on that. Yeah, I guess so. That's not us.

That's him saying it. Do you think that's his real name, by the way, Mitch? I feel like all of our letter writers are named Mitch. It might just be like a running joke with our listeners. Yeah, Mitch doesn't sound like a very Canadian name, though. Like, I would believe it if it was like Mitch from like suburban Philadelphia, because I actually know a couple guys named Mitch from suburban Philadelphia. But Mitch seems a little American.

I'm going to assume that Mitch is. being real with us here. But I definitely believe he's from Winnipeg. So as a native Winnipeger, I always viewed the weaker thens as a modestly successful local band. But after reading some tributes to them this week, I am realizing that they had a wider impact on the indie music world than I understood at the time. I'm interested in knowing your opinions of the weaker thans and whether you can contextualize their legacy. In simple terms, weaker than's, yay or nay, XOXO, Mitch from Winnipeg. Yay or nay, weaker thens, Ian.

So this is one of the bands that we talk about here where we feel kind of obligated to like them. I mean, with the weaker thens, they have set up this format for people who played in a punk or emo band and they want to kind of shift towards something else. I mean, you know, I think the OG of this is

you know, Jets to Brazil after Jawbreaker. And two of a a different degree dashboard confessional. But the weaker thens, I know people who are like obsessed with them, you know, John K. Samson has like a very distinct form of writing that I could understand why people might get like tattoos of their lyrics. And this is sort of a band I have to like lump into a hold steady sort of mountain goats sort of thing

where I would probably prefer to read a book written by John K. Samson then listen to their music, which is really strange, given how much people in, like, the emo sphere love this band. And I was like 23 when Reconstruction site dropped. You would think this would be like the perfect time for me to get into this band because like I was also kind of easing out of emo when like the third wave stuff was popping. But, um, you know, when I hear it now, like I try like every single fucking year to like have a, uh, a weaker than's moment. And I just, I'm just thinking of like the people who were like really into Bukowski, like the kind of person who would like bring a Bukowski book to a bar.

And like it gives us like the big words like type of punk stuff. Like, you know, like when I was 16 and listening to like bad religion, how I thought they were geniuses. But you get the wimpiness and cloying nature of indie folks. So it's kind of like a worst of all worlds sort of situation. Look, I vaguely recall thinking plea from a cat named Virtue was an incredible song when my girlfriend put it on a mix CD in 2004, but now I'd probably think it's insufferable.

So, look, I don't think it's going to happen for me and the weaker then. I don't begrudge anyone who loves them, but like it wasn't, I just, it's so not my thing right now. Yeah, I mean, this is a band, you know, to get to the question here about contextualizing their place in the indie rock world,

you know, have a sphere of influence that is narrow but deep. Yes. You know, meaning that like not that many people love this band, but the people who do go hardcore, you know, like you said, like they're getting the tattoos on themselves, you know, they are quoting lyrics. They, you know, almost regard this band with like a religious type fervor. And the devotion of people who love this band, like you, it appears.

periodically makes me curious and like makes me think okay I know I don't really like this band but I forgot why I don't like them so why don't I put on this record and remind myself why I don't like it and I did that with Reconstruction site and within 10 seconds I was like okay I know why I don't like this and it comes down to the vocals John K. Samson's vocals you know I can respect what he's doing as a writer in the storytelling aspect of what he does but But the sound of his voice, it fills me with... I'm sorry to say this, but I'm just being honest. It feels me with a certain kind of revulsion that I can only liken to when I see an adult man do like an Austin Powers impression.

You know, like where you're just like, oh, this is so, like, weak to me. Like, I just can't stomach it. It's just... I don't know. there's almost something kind of pathetic about the sound of the voice. And that might be too harsh, but like, honestly, that's how I feel. And, like, I was thinking about this, because I don't want to get into this conversation of, like, well, some of the best bands ever have singers who can't sing.

And, like, I totally agree with that. And I was trying to, like, break it down a little bit about, like, what is it about some singers who can't sing that I like and other singers who can't sing that I don't like? And really looking at it. at this talk singing type style of singing and like how I have varying reactions to different kinds of people who do that kind of vocal style. And I realize that there's really like two kinds of talk singers in the rock world. The first is what I'll call like the Willie Nelson style singers where they're talk singing during the verses and then in the chorus they end up

kind of adopting this like kind of crooner type style of singing. And I think you could say that the most obvious example in the indie world is Bill Callahan. Like Bill Callahan has that kind of style. Bill Callahan has had a very obvious evolution in his vocal style, starting with smog and then into his solo stuff, to the point where now I think he's a great singer. You know, I love the sound of his voice, but I could see someone not liking it if you don't like that kind of croonery type singing combined with the talk singing. I think David Berman, to a degree, has that kind of style as well, and I love his vocals.

Leonard Cohen, to go back to like an older person in this style, he obviously also has that kind of style. It's singing like in the lower register, you're talking, very poetic, and then in the chorus, you're kind of, again, crooner style vocals there, you're extending your voice a little bit. I'm a sucker for that. I love that kind of singing. The kind of talk singing I don't like, I'll call it the John Darniel style of singing, where it sounds like you're trying to sing, and it sounds like you're singing off like the top of your head. And it's almost like you're screaming but talking at the same time. And it's like this sort of bleeding type quality to the voice.

And that's the kind of thing I cannot stand. It'd be like if I were trying to sing, like a metal singer. you know, and I was like kind of trying to sing like an upper register, but I don't have like the body behind it. I'm just singing it like from the neck up, basically. That's like the worst vocal style to me ever. And like John Garniel is another person where I respect him as a writer. I appreciate the ambition of his songwriting,

but the vocals just kill it for me every time. It just takes me out of the song and I'm just like, and again, I'm seeing Bob Dylan. A lot of people think Bob Dylan is a terrible singer. But like to me, I don't know. It's different with him. I think Bob Dylan's a great singer personally.

And I'm sure people think John John Yel's a great singer. But I don't know. It's almost like this thing where you want to be a great punk rock singer or you want to be a great emo singer, but you don't actually have the voice to back it up. But like you're singing like you do. And I just think that's such a terrible style. I just can't get behind it at all. Well, it's interesting because like the weaker thans are a model almost to the letter for Slaughter B. Beach Dog in terms of like where one starts and where one ends up.

And I think they're kind of similar in style. So I'm curious about like why that band works for you. And because like that seems like one of the more obvious descendants of him. Yeah. I mean for me like Jake E. Walt's voice in Slaughter Beach Dog, I don't think it's really comparable to John K. Samson. I could see like the storytelling aspect of what Slaughter Beach Dog is doing being inspired by the weaker thens. But I think, if anything, Jagu Wald has drifted more into the, like, talk singing with the crooner-type chorus-type talk-singing than, like, the thing I'm talking about. Which, you know, again, when I think about the weaker thens and I think about the mountain goats, there's, like, an earnestness to those bands, and the vocals reflect that.

Like, it just sounds like the singers are trying so hard when they're singing. And it just turns me off. I just can't connect with it. And it just takes me out of those songs. And I'm sure that they're wonderful songs with a lot to offer, but the vocals just kill it for me. Yeah, I think for you, it's like the type of voice. But for me, it's like the type of guy, you know, like I can't help but like get out, like the type of guy who I think of when it comes to like weaker thans or just Brazil.

Like there is definitely an earnestness that's like in a weird way almost as cringe as like being like a teenage emo person. It's like you're just kind of exchanging one cringe. for another, you know. Well, you don't like the other kind of talk singing, correct? Like the Bill Callahan type? I like Bill Callahan, you know, in bits and I like, you know, Willie Nelson. I think there's a command to it that I don't quite get from like John Kay Samson or like John darn yell. Like I think of like, you know, Bill Callahan or like Willie Nelson's being like less literary. And I think the literary component of it is kind of what rubs me the wrong way. about some of the other bands that we're talking about,

where it's like, dude, you're trying to, like, just save it for the book where I don't feel the same way about that as, like, Bill Callahan, who, like, tends to have, like, a more mysterious sort of omniscient character going. He almost sounds like Godlike in a way. Not like he sounds like God, but it's, like, this kind of removed observer in a way that I can get down with more so. Like, I think that John K, like, and John Darniel, the Johns, Like, they imprint themselves on the song in a way that really makes it inaccessible to me.

And also, I just think about being, like, berated by people who I don't get berated by Bill Callahan fans as much as I do, you know, people like weaker thans or Jessin Brazil. Well, you know, and I wrote this in my notes, like, lean in versus lean back type vocal styles, like where the lean in vocal style, which I would equate with like a Bill Callahan where he's singing and like you want to lean fall. and hear like what he's talking about you know because of the try hard element like it doesn't seem like he's trying as hard like to put the song across as you know like a weaker than's or mountain goats type situation which is very much like a lean back thing like this person's in your face like shouting these lyrics at you uh and it's very difficult to take now of course there are exceptions to my own rule here like i am a hold steady fan i like craig finn's voice I appreciate what he does.

You could group him in with the Jarn Darneal and the Weaker Then's type of vocalizing and music making. I mean, they clearly kind of fit in with that group. And then on the other side, like, I love Destroyer. And like Dan Behar, you could say has that kind of singing from the neck up type vocal style. But I love his vocals and I love what he's doing. So I don't know. It's not consistent. I mean, really, it is like a case-by-case basis thing.

It either hits you or it doesn't. I know we have a lot of listeners that love The Weaker Thens, so like, no disrespect intended, even though I threw out some useful words earlier, just being honest. But, you know, it's just my opinion. Who cares about my opinion? Doesn't matter. Yeah, The weaker thens make me kind of want to die, but no shade, you know. Exactly. It's just me.

I don't want you to die. I just want myself to die, not you. You want to read our next letter? Yeah, this comes us from Jordan from Detroit. like classic you know classic classic indie cast writer

so hi Stephen Ian I'm an okay guitar player who's about to buy a bass good fucking move that's the way you're going to get in a band as I prepare to jump in I found myself listening more closely to the bass lines of music I've listened to I've always appreciated bass but I'll be honest sometimes I glaze over the bass

in favor of the sick riffs of a guitar or the loud fills of a drum kit who are your favorite indie rock bassist Yeah, I could study Fleet or McCartney, but I'd rather remember some guys and dive into some indie bass groups. So, great question. Yeah, it's like, I mean, what is the bassist except like the guy who played guitar and really wanted to be in a band? So it's just like, whatever, just buy a $200 base. You'll figure shit out, play root notes.

No, man. Like, I'm glad that we're giving some respect to the indie rock bassist out there. Yeah. I feel like we probably have some indie rock bassist listening to the show. Hopefully your ears are perking up right now. We're going to get into some real discourse about indie rock basses. I mean, the first person that came to mind, if we're talking about bass players from like the last 25 years, Carlos D. Carlos D.

Fuck, yeah. I mean, turn on the bright lights. If you're looking for like a bass playing clinic, just listen to that record, man. It's so majestic, the bass lines. I really think that that is a record where you're not going to be distracted by the guitars. You're going to just center in on the bass. it's such a pivotal part of that sound. So yeah, Carlos D.

And also just like Carlos D's vibe. You know, if you're a bass player and you want to stand out, you know, because it's a lot of times about the singer or the guitar player. But if you want to stand out, study Carlos D's vibe, man. Like you have like the angular haircut and like the all black suit. Didn't you like have like a gun on stage or what's like the press photos? Yeah. Yeah, he's kind of walked back from the kind of fascist-leaning iconography he preferred.

I mean, it was 2002 who didn't get involved in that. But, yeah, I think Carlos... It was like a soft, it was a soft fascist. It was like a hymbo fascist. Absolutely, yes. It was like a non-political, you know, just like a slutty fascist type thing, type look. Yeah, the coolest new Halloween outfit, slutty fascist. Yeah, it's great.

Um, another basis that came to mind for me, like from, you know, this is like somewhat older, I guess, but you know, like 90s indie rock is Eric Judy of modest mouse. Oh, yeah. But like loads some crowded West, if you listen to that record, just great bass playing. That's a record too where it's only three instruments. So the base stands out more automatically. But just the way that he locked in with Jeremiah Green, RIP, uh, who if you're an indie rock drummer, that's where you start studying first, Jeremiah Green.

Just an incredible drummer, but then what he did with Eric Judy as the rhythm section of Modis Mouse I think is incredible. Got a shout out Thundercat, you know, in terms of like a celebrity bass player, like someone who just stands out as a bass player, you know, he is like the flea of the indie rock world,

you know, like Thundercat, not just indie rock, but, you know, obviously hip-hop, R&B. I mean, he's spanning many of the indie. different places. I also want to shout out Dave Hartley of the War on Drugs, because I think he's got like a cool, like Adam Clayton type bass playing where it's subtle, but it just sounds like a mile thick. It's very atmospheric, very vibe, perfect for that band. Great example of a bass player who's serving the song, but if you listen to his bass lines, they're sneaky great. And finally, I want to say Chris Beow, a vampire weekend, who I think is a great bass player,

But if you see Vampire Weekend Live, he's dancing around. He's making his presence felt. He has a lot of showmanship on stage. And it just is another reminder that just because you're playing bass, does it mean you have to just melt into the background? You can be jumping around. You can be rolling up your sleeves. You can make the audience look at you if you're the bass player.

So yeah, those are the five people I think I would shout out. Yeah, I think with Carlos D, it kind of brings up this unfortunate kind of a body shaming thing where I feel like if you're like tall basis just makes sense to me. You know, it's amazing. Unless you're like flee and then that's like you're hunched over the base and that's all part of your thing. You just, it just looks so fucking so much cooler. But I love how Carlos D like when I did the oral history of Interpol's turn on the bright lights 10 or 11 years ago, I actually got to talk to Carlos D and like that was really awesome.

Like I didn't think I'd get him on there. But Paul Banks said that Carlos record. kind of jokingly, but not jokingly, said that we should call the album celebrated bass lines of the future. Oh, man. Which is a total Carlos D line. But if we're talking about, like, you know, late 90s or like indie rock for sure, if you're going to bring up modest mouths, which I think you absolutely should,

I'm thinking of Eric Axelson from the dismemberment plan. Like, holy shit, those. By the way, I had to look up. I couldn't remember the guy's name. I got him confused with the drummer who's also insane. I didn't realize the dismemberment plan opened up for a European leg of pearl jams binoral tour. Did you know this? Oh, yeah. That would make sense because they were, you know, like Sonic Youth also opened up for part of that tour.

And, yeah, I mean, you know, Pearl Jam, they were really good about bringing like indie rock bands. Like Slater Kinney was opening up for them a bunch in that era. You know, so they were, they were raising up the indie rock bands into the arenas all over the world. Yeah, shout to them. But yeah, otherwise, I mean, like those emergency and I and change, it's just insane baselines. Also, I'm thinking about, like, and I swear this happened, I can't seem to find it, but I remember somebody around the time moon-shaped pool drop, they complimented Colin Greenwood by saying his baselines were woke. I don't, like, it's two, I mean, it was 2016, so like, I know what they're trying to say, but, yeah, good baselines there. but I don't know if you can call this indie anymore,

but like someone who, like when I think of like really cool bass lines in like an indie-ish kind of setting, Kevin Parker from Taman Paula, his baselines are so fucking good. Like it might actually be his greatest strength as a musician. Like more so than the riffs.

I mean, there's like, you know, elephants a good riff, but the moment or like the way he, you know, bumps up the baseline. I think that's part of, working with Dave Friedman, who's notorious for just, like, boosting the low end insanely. But I'm also... And his drum sounds, too, like are great, especially, like, the early Tame Impala records.

Yeah. You know, like, loanerism. I mean, that's where, like, all the Dunian comparisons come in, because Dunian has just sick drum sounds. But, you know, Kevin Parker really had that on the early Tamapin'Pala records. Yeah. And also, you could bring up, like, of course, like Peter Hook. That's like a...

The thing is, you can't do a Peter Hook style bass. without, like, people, like, thing, oh, yeah, you're totally doing a, a Peterhood thing. Like, you can't, you just can't, like, every, it's like playing guitar like the edge, you know. Like, they invented it and you're just paying homage each time. But I'm thinking... Yeah, that's old school. I mean... Yeah.

But otherwise, I would say that, you know, if you're a bassist, the one thing you need to do, learn the riff from Spacehogs in the meantime. Like, just, that's the first thing you should do and call it a day. Like, you should not not know. how to play that. Or, you know, who plays bass on House of Jealous Lovers? Oh, yeah, that. You know, just incredible bass part.

But, yeah, I don't know. If we're going like classic rock era, I mean, we could talk way more base. I could talk bass players for a long time, actually. But, I mean, I think this is a good recap of, like, the last, like, 25 years or so of base players. We got one more letter here left in the mailbag. I'll read this one. This one. It comes from Stephen in Memphis.

Pleasant Michigan. I love it. Stephen with a pH. I'm kind of a sworn enemy of all Stephen with pHs. I'm in the V-tribe, but I'll make an exception for you, Stephen. Hi, Stephen Ian, love the pod. I was scouring some records one day and caught a glimpse of Beirut's, not for long, previous release,

Galalope. Is that how you say it? Galapole. I have no fucking clue. Gallipoli. I'm going to go with Galapoli. Yeah, sure. I know there was that film, which I can't say. That film from 1973 was Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman. That's a great movie.

I first started exploring my taste in music in the early 2010s, and I can recall around that time that Beirut was being praised by indie music publications and included in Urban Outfitters Free Mixes. Wow, I remember some free mixes there. Since then, their profile has been pretty low, and with the upcoming release of another work, That's an album called, I looked this up. What's it called?

Hadsel. Hadsel. It's out November 10th. That's the new Beirut record. With the new album coming out soon, I thought it'd be a good time to ask. Yay or nay on the fokey, corny, once indie darling Beirut. Thanks, y'all. That's Stephen in Mount Pleasant.

So Beirut, not the city, but the band. How do we feel about Beirut? Well, you know, I included Beirut in my big blog rock list, which ran like a month or so ago. And, you know, it was funny to consider this project because it begged the question of whether, like, white-on-white appropriation could be a thing. I mean, like, we think about him coming up in 2006 where he was this 19, or this teenager from New Mexico that sounded like a Romanian dude from the 1930s. And it's like, this feels like, I don't know, like, wrong in some, like, way, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe they were, like, faking experience or what have you.

But, or just, like, it sounds like neutral milk hotel. And it's like, I mean, we could talk about, like, the ways that's been, like, reconsider. It's, like, problematic in many, many ways. But, you know, Beirut was, like, a thing that I, you know, I was aware of. And similar to weaker then, you know, you'd get, like, postcards from Italy on a, like, every single mix from 2006 alongside like the blows, you know, true affection. But yeah, I think about like Beirut, not in West Anderson, kind of like a West Anderson type figure in that it's the it's the sort of thing that can really only define indie culture at large in the mid-2000s. And I

think you could throw the Decembrus in there as well. But my take on Beirut in general is that they have one good song and every song is that every song is. that one song. But I can't remember how any of those songs go because I always end up thinking of the end of O'Cumley by Neutral Milk Hotel instead. But yeah, I'm going to go with Yay, I guess. Like, because like with our original mailbag question, or from D.C., I love when people like stake out a principle and they just stick with it the entire time.

And you can't say that Beirut has, you know, strayed from what they, from what their original intention is. Like, they pick the sound, they're going, they're sticking with it. I mean, they've changed a little bit and over time, but it's not like, you know, when you think of iron and wine or Decemberus, who I'd situate similarly, they've evolved more, but like they've done so in a way that makes them a little less interesting to me. And so I want to, like, shout to Zach Condon for sticking to his strengths. You know, specialists are really underrated.

So I'm going to give them a yay. am I going to listen to the new album? Probably. Am I going to listen to it twice? I don't know. But generally speaking, yay. Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon with this band because, you know, and I don't have any sense of like what their cross-generational appeal is. Like, are there people that are in their early 20s who have any interest in this era of in Iraq? Like, are people investigating Beirut, the December who else would you put in that camp? Maybe Ockerville River. Yeah, like, rural Alberta advantage, like a band like that? Andrew Bird. I would put Andrew, yeah.

Oh, yeah, Andrew Bird advantage is a little too blocky. But I would say Andrew Bert, like, I remember making like just like a ton of jokes about like the Andrew Bird, Iron and Wine co-headlining toy that occurred last year. So M. Ward, of course, you're going to put in there. You know Oh yeah I'm more Yeah so

Yeah Like my impression Of like that group Like my impression of that group of Like my impression of that group of artists is that Is that they still have a big audience But it's an audience that has aged with them Absolutely

So like if you loved Beirut When you were a 23 year old college student You're gonna care about this new Beirut record That's coming out next month Now that you're like a 40 year old You know music listener You know like You maybe haven't

Really embrace like newer indie bands, but the indie bands that you came up with, you're still loyal to them, you're going to care about Beirut, they're still a relevant band to you. And I know this is like an imperfect metric. We've talked about this in other episodes, but like, I was looking at Beirut streaming numbers and like, they're pretty healthy. I mean, they've got us, you know, they've got a song that's almost 80 million spins. They've got like a bunch that are like mid, you know, like 50 or like around like maybe like

40 or so. My assumption is that the Decembris were bigger than Beirut, but again, going by the monthly listeners on Spotify, like, Beirut is almost like twice as many as the Decembrus, which I would not have thought. No. Because I feel like in the aughts, the Decembris would have been bigger than Beirut. They would have been the Beatles and Beirut would have been the stones. Decembrus are oasis and Beirut is blur of that sort of fokey, you know, a

affected type indie rock back then. Yeah, we need another hour to extend this metaphor. Like, where's Andrew Bird? Like, where does tallest man on earth come to play? Where do the fruit bats? Oh, tallest man on earth? I think that's more late. They're along with, like, Fleet Foxes, I think.

Well, Fleet Foxes, you've got to separate from this group. Absolutely, yeah. And, like, Bonnie Vair, and they're, like, in a different league. These are, like, the B-team of that, like, indie folk boom of the 2000. But yeah, I mean, it's always interesting now that we're getting about 20 years removed from this of this time. Like, what is going to be revived and what is not? Like, are there young musicians who are listening to these records and feeling inspired by them? Or are they listening to the records that these people listen to that are from, like, the 70s and 60s and skipping over the blog rock people of the 2000s?

Like, that's what I'm curious about. Because if I had to guess again, I feel like all those Spotify spins, they're coming from people that had, like, like, you said, like, postcards from Italy on a mixed CD that, like, they gave to their girlfriend in 2007. And they still feel connected to Beirut after all this time. Yeah, I do, like, when I think of, like, postcards from Italy, I could hear that on a TikTok. Like, I really, really can. Also, like, what would be more, like, for lack of a better term, like, punk or countercultural to be, like, a high school kid in the age of, like, you know, TikTok and Swiftism and whatever. Just like, just be super into Beirut and, like, all the stuff from that era. It's like, that is, like, that is like some weirdo shit right there.

And there probably is, like, we see it so often where there's just like this really want, there's this like, I mean, maybe, maybe we just have discovered the duster of the, uh, you know, pre-Blog rock folk mpr era. I don't know. Maybe that's Beirut, but maybe it's true. They're too big, though. Yeah, that's true.

There's got to be like an also RAND type band. We are going to find it. Yeah, that got like a 5.8 from Pitchfork and now kids are like, this is like the best indie rock of the 2000s. You know, I wonder what that band would be. I don't, because we're not going to know.

Yeah, maybe it's Coco Rosie or something. Coco Rosie Yeah or nay The Coco Rosie Asats is upon us Can't wait We've now reached the part of our episode That we call Recommendation Corner

Where Ian and I talk about something That we're into this week Ian wanted to go first All right so it's been a minute Since we did an Indycast Hall of Fame episode So I can't remember whether I put A Begotus Crush in there Even if I haven't

It's been more or less implied Because I think like I do want to see the Spotify numbers or the Apple music numbers of like how much of Abe Vigoda how much how many people have listened to A. Vagoda's crush and like what percentage of that is just strictly me. So I've been caping for this project. They emerged from the smell, you know, in the late aughts, you know, alongside No Age and Meshie and so forth. And Crush was just an incredible record. Came out in 2010 produced by Chris Cody who did all the Beach House records and just had this, it sounded like, you know, the psychedelic furs or echoing

the bunny men, but if you had, it just played it at double speed. So they just haven't done anything since until now. So now they have a new project, the two main figures, called Cupid and Psychie. That's named, of course, after a Screddy-Politi record. I said, of course, as if, you know, we have a huge Scrutty-Politi heads. All the Scrutty-Polty people were like, he better make that reference. Yeah, well, I'm saying, though, because people, ought to be. you'll bring up that band you know

they're like kind of like alongside like the blue nile where you have like where you have to like bring up like oh yeah that's like what a lot of people are going for it that's the fist of pop sound nevertheless they have a new record out called romantic music and it sounds like the last eight pagoda record which is you know it's a little less rock a little more smooth it does sound like it's two people

rather than the band so you don't get the same sort of like hyperkinetic drumming but look people when I bring up a vagoda that is a bat signal. If you're like one of the 12 people who have followed me along this journey, you're going to like this record. I like this record a lot. It touches on a sound that a lot of people like try to do, but they just do like, oh, it sounds like pretty and pink, or it sounds like stranger things. They take a little more artful and considered and shadowy view on it. So I highly recommend.

because you know what it sounds like a it sounds like abogoda I can't I can't I can not fucking put it more bluntly yes and not the character actor abogota no this is the band abigota did he did the actor know about this band like was there ever any

like cross like pollination going on there uh you know me I haven't kicked it with Abe I imagine someone might have brought it up to him before he uh you know passed on quite recently. But yeah, I'm just going to assume that he did not like, you know, throwing shade or dreams of my love chasing after me.

You know, all the classic Apogoda songs, Skeleton, their 2008 tropical punk classic. Well, shout out to the band Apagoda and the actor, A Pagoda, RIP. May he rest in peace. I want to talk about a record called Tomorrow's Fire. It's by a Chicago-based musician named Ella Williams. who records under the name Squirrel Flower. And this is just like a really, really good rock record. This has actually become one of my favorite rock records that I've heard in the second half of 2023.

And you could probably guess that I would like this record based on some of the guest musicians that Williams invited to play on the album. You got Dave Hartley, who I've mentioned just a few minutes ago from The War on Drugs. He's laying down some bass on this record. You have M.J. Lenderman lending his guitar skills to this record. That definitely adds another layer for me that I'm going to love on this album. But, you know, again, this is just like really good, vibe rock music from a singer-songwriter who's just writing good melodies, writing really smart lyrics. And at the end of the day, isn't that what you want?

You want vibes, you want big rock sounds. You want a songwriter who has something to say. say he's going to express something in an emotionally immediate way that's going to make you feel something. And even if you don't want to feel something, you just like want some vibey rock songs in your ears that are going to make you feel good. That's what this record is. I like it a lot.

It's called Tomorrow's Fire. The artist is Squirrelflower. Definitely check it out. Yeah, a lot of people I know and trust are big on this one. Yep, it's a good one. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter.

You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.