Indiecast - Indiecast's Favorite Albums Of 2025

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Steven and Ian begin this special episode with a quick rundown of the new Charli XCX mockumentary and whether it potentially represents the end of millennial cultural dominance (0:56). They also do a quick Sportscast after the recent Packers win and Eagles loss (11:11). After that, they discuss the latest album from This Is Lorelei, a kind of greatest hits release for the promising singer-songwriter's Bandcamp era (19:30). Then they discuss their favorite albums of 2025 (30:59).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 269 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discuss our favorite albums of 2025. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He can't wait for the new Charlie XX mockumentary. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

Yeah, I'm worried that they're going to find probably a tweet that I did in 2011. or something like that when I first saw Charlie XX perform at Trubedore in L.A. And I said she dances like a girl at her bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah. Sorry, I have to use the proper terminology. I hope I'm just outside the scope of what this mockumentary might bring up. Well, okay, so the trailer for this movie was dropped the morning that we're recording, which is Thursday, what, December, is December 11th, I believe it is? The movie's called The Moment.

It's coming out in January. Like I said, it's a mockumentary, and it's focused on the Brat Arena Tour, or as I like to call it, the Brat Arena Tour. That's how we say it in Wisconsin. So it looks like from the trailer that there are clips of her performing on the Brat Tour, footage of her backstage and limousines and green rooms. But also there is a fictional element being in. introduced into it. One of the Scars Guard Brothers is in it.

He plays like a choreographer maybe. Of course, like Rachel Senat is in it. A lot of people in the Charlie X, the X, the X world. The trailer is a little much. Can I say that? I don't want to judge a film preemptively. I guess I am doing it a little bit in the case of this film. It looks a little crazy.

If I can make an extremely Gen X, comparison here, it made me think of Rado and Hum, the U-2 movie that came out after the Joshua Tree Tour, and was basically this documentary that made them look like egomaniacs who were super deluded. It just made them look terrible, and it really made their career, kind of derailed them for a bit, and then they came back in the 90s. That wasn't a mockumentary, that was them being very, very sincere, like the opposite of ironic. This is Charlie X-E-X Poking fun at herself, poking fun at the music industry.

But the trailer, man, I don't know. My first reaction was, is this the end of millennial culture? Is this the epitaph? Is this like where we finally say, okay, the zoomers, you win, you take over? Like millennials, you had your moment in control of culture. You're officially done after this movie. Now it's going to be zoomers all the time after this. Yeah, we touched on this last episode, but there is this uncanny valley of time and space where a year or two years ago can feel so much more remote than 10 years ago just because in a way it's so fresh.

And I think this feels too soon and also not soon enough to have a brat-based documentary because it's tied to a very specific area, a very specific era that is not happening right now. And I guess we can blame it on Kamala Harris. But the interesting part about this to me is before Brat made Charlie X-ZX a star on the level of what her stands believed she should always be, she was kind of known for having kind of an annoying public persona, one that was, you know, really out there, but maybe not as funny as she thought she was. And, you know, perhaps there's some self-awareness of this from the other side of it. what this really did for me is make me kind of respect the idol more, you know, like the weekend playing like a barely, like a barely fictionalized version of himself. And, you know, I guess I respect, you know, the Uncut Gems version of the weekend as well. But, you know, I do like the idea of an extinction level event for millennial culture. I think that's way more fun than quiet flops like

we've been getting throughout 2025 of, you know, like all the artists from the 2010's putting out mid albums. You know, it's signaled the end of an era, but nothing truly definitive as, you know, we need to move on. Yeah, I mean, again, we're judging it by the trailer, which is unfair. This could be a great movie. Yeah, we'll reserve judgment when we see it. If we're going to see it, maybe we'll see it. Who knows? I kind of want to see it actually based on the trailer. So I guess it's working in that regard. But it does feel like from the trailer that this is the moment where an artist like Charlie X-T-X who is someone

who I think she was an annoying public persona for a long time but I do think that she had a reputation throughout the 2010s up through Brad as the cool self-aware pop star the pop star who is on top of latest music trends she

I think has a self-awareness about her she has a sense of humor about herself to a degree but just has kind of like a postmodern quality to her. It feels like she's commenting on what she's doing as she's doing it. And then of course, Brad comes along and it becomes this record where instead of Charlie X,

Charlie X, X, X, being this kind of like future pop star, how she was always written about, the pop star of the future, the pop star for the new millennium. She became like an actual pop star with that record, like full-fledged. Yeah. That was the moment of, you know, that was the thing, the zeitgeist of 2024. Yeah, which, you know, the zeitys of 2024, like, in parentheses, derogatory, you know, like whether we see that as like Hamilton. Exactly. Well, and that's the thing. And you were alluding to this. The movie feels a little bit like the point where the person who was once cool now seems like a little too loud, a little too annoying, and no one is really laughing with the joke anymore. You know, and everyone has this moment in their life where you realize that you're no longer the youngest and cool.

person in the room, that you are now actually one of the older people in the room. And now you're surrounded by much younger people who have a whole other thing going on, and they're ready to move on to something else. And it feels, we've had many signs of this with a lot of the culture of the 2010s throughout this year. This movie's coming out in early 2026. But it feels like a potential moment for that, which to me, again, in a weird way, makes this movie more interesting.

It makes me want to watch it because if it were just, Something like the Eros Tour documentary where you're just like, oh, this is about how great this person is or how successful they are. That's not that interesting. But there is going to be a subtext, I think, potentially to this movie that will make it an artifact that's important to study, to understand these times, that this was a pivot point maybe to something else. So I find it interesting for that. Can I bring up something else with Charlie X, The X. This is more of like a personal gripe I have with her lately. and it's not specific to her.

A lot of people are doing this, but I've noticed that she started a substack. Yes. And she's been promoting the substack, and she's been writing like these kind of serious essays. They're like in depth. She's clearly putting a significant amount of thought into it. And other famous people have done this too,

but can I just say to Charlie XX if you're listening? It's possible. There's a non-zero chance that she's listening to the show. show. Charlie, you know, despite of everything I just said, I think that you are very successful. I think you have a lot going on right now. Can you leave substack to people like me and Ian? Like, this is our thing.

We're living in the equivalent, like the media environment right now. It is a sea infected with sharks and the ship has gone down and we're floating and there's people all around us getting picked off, turned into shark food. And we're just trying to survive. And you are this rich pop star going into our lane here with the substack thing. It's like when Jason Bateman and who are smart. Yeah, that's smartless podcast. They came into the podcast space, like all these famous, like Amy Poler.

I like Amy Polar, but you're taking podcasts away from. the non-telogenic writers out there. Now we're just trying to do our little substacks here, getting our crumbs. And now Charlie X-E-X, your glamorous pop star coming into the substack space? Like, what's next? Like, are you going to start freelancing for, like, music websites?

You know, can we have anything here? I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting to this. It just bothers me when these rich, famous, glamorous people come into our little corners that we're just trying to scramble for any kind of coin that we can get. And they're shoveling all that, too, into their fat faces. I don't like it. Ian, it bothers me. Yeah, I mean, it also makes me feel bad because I haven't been doing my substack in a minute because, you know, I have, like, you know, in real life, like 40 hour a week job.

And it's like if Charlie XEX can put out this kind of content, what's my excuse? But yeah, without reverting to hyperbole, this is the exact same thing as, you know, Master P trying to have an NBA career or like Drake sitting in with the Kentucky basketball team. Yeah, but that's not, but that's rarefied error too. I know. That would be like if Master P wanted to be the ball boy for the Kentucky basketball team. Or if you wanted to like sell concessions at the arena, you know, like these are jobs for us average people. It's not for you.

You don't get to come into the substack space. I mean, Charlie XCX, what if I decide that I want to write the score for the next Emerald Fennell movie? Then I'd be coming into your space. You wouldn't like that. I'm going to let you score the Emerald Fennell Films. Let me have the substack. This is the only thing that people like me have left. Please, I'm begging you, Charlie XX, X, X.

Do not take our crumbs from us in the media landscape. We need that. Yeah, I'm going to just say this now. Like, if I find out Addison Ray is, like, trying to review guided by voices albums, you know, like, I think. Edison Ray, she's got a great emo book coming out, Ian. Yeah, seriously. I got it out. Addison Ray, she's investigating the Midwest emo scene of the 1990s.

She's all over it. I think you're in trouble, Ian. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's over for people like me. Um, we got to do a quick sports cast here. I got to follow up. well, you maybe don't want to do a sports cast. I do. Because the Eagles are a little bit of trouble.

I just need to say something quick. And I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to be too terrible about this. I'm not going to gloat too much about the Packers, beating the Bears and taking over first place in the NFC North. I know we have a lot of listeners in Chicago. I've heard from some of these people. And look, I respect your team. We've got to go back.

We got to go to Chicago. this time next week to play the Bears again. Not going to be an easy game. I got a lot of respect for your team, your coach, Ben Johnson. He is a worm, but he's a great coach. Caleb Williams, good quarterback. He's better when you guys are behind by a lot of points, and then he has to pull great plays out of his ass.

Not so good at the beginning of games, at least not against the Packers. Can I just say I have one pet peeve about how the Packers' Bears game was discussed because I saw a lot of national pundits talking more about the bears after that game than the Packers. There's a lot of crowning Ben Johnson talk, crowning Caleb Williams. You know, they would toe to toe with the Packers. They were resilient in the second half after not playing well at the beginning of the game. And look, I just have to say put on my sports analyst cap here for a second, other than the beginning of the game when it was zero-zero,

and late in the fourth quarter when it was 21-21. Packers were ahead every second of that game by at least a touchdown. We were six and a half-point favorites. We covered the spread. Just saying, you know, Bears, you played a nice game. It was actually an exciting game for once playing the Bears. But Packers were in control for much of that game. And it wasn't until you guys had that like eight-minute drive

and you wore out the defense that it threatened to become something closer than it was. Not saying this next game won't be close. I think the Bears, again, you're a good team. You're going to be at home. I mean, even when the Bears aren't very good, Packer Bear games are often competitive. I mean, they were last year when you guys were terrible. So I expect this game to be good.

It's going to be close. I wouldn't be shocked if you guys won this game. But let's pump the brakes on the bravado. I'm seeing a lot of, like, trash-talking Bears fans, even after the game. Talking about, oh, you just wait until next week. You know, bears are coming. Bears are coming.

Knocking on the door. It's like, okay, let's win a game. Win a game. Win a game. And then you can trash trash. Like, just pause on the trash talking a little bit. See, I'm talking a little bit of trash because we won. I'm not talking trash ahead of this next game.

I'm paying their respect. Bears fans, I know you guys don't win very much. But this is a good advice for you from someone who's, used to winning trash talk after the game, not before the game, because you might set yourself up for a rough situation, especially if you cheer for the bears. Okay, I'm just saying, trying to be helpful. Ian, Eagles, panic level, where are you at right now? So a little story. I got, and I know talking about fantasy football is on the level of like talking somewhat about your dreams, but, uh, I had, I, I needed Jalen Hertz to score point one four points to, to, you know, and I,

win one of my games this week. Not like a necessary one to get into the playoffs, but, you know, it would be helpful with seating. Like, that's a two-yard scramble. That's five passing yards. And for whatever reason beforehand, Yahoo gave me a 98% chance of winning to, I guess, account for the 2% chance of Jalen Hertz going out like Aaron Rogers in his first Jets game and having his ACL completely combust. Four quarters in OT later, I won by like 0.2. He scored 0.4 fantasy points. And I was lucky to get it because Once the game went into overtime and I was ahead by all, I'm like, he's throwing a He's throwing an interception.

Like, he's going to do it on the first drive. And he did, except it took him longer than I anticipated. So this has to be the worst NFL offense of all time. And I'm saying that in the sense that like, Hey, Leonardo is the worst song of all time. Like, there's clearly more incompetent offenses. You know, you think about like the Raiders this year, like the Titans or that one game where the Broncos like lost all their quarterbacks during COVID and they had to have a wide receiver play. People tend to forget about that.

I think it was Kendall Hillner or something. But it's like how can they be this is the most expensive offense of all time. It's basically the same as it was with all the skill players as last year. Like how do you not hand it to Sequin Barkley and have them just like fall forward and get three yards? Yeah, it's weird. It's insane. It's like Jalen is thrown like 40 times a game, I feel like lately. And Sequan's maybe getting like 20 touches.

It's a very kind of opposite of the way it should be in Philly right now. I was thinking about this. And this is a very indie cast type thing to do. But I was thinking about the Eagles in relation to the red hot chili peppers. As one tends to do. And I think I've made this analogy before. I think the chili peppers are always a good foundational comparison point for anything. You can kind of compare anything in the world to the chili peppers.

some aspect of their history. But it made me think about how, like, the chili peppers, if they're working with Rick Rubin, you know, you're probably going to have a hit record. You're probably going to have an album that people are really into. But if they have any other producer, it's going to be dog shit and people won't be into it. And I just wonder, like, with the Eagles,

there's a similar thing. It's not like it's always the same offensive coordinator. But if you have a, like, an awesome offensive coordinator, Eagles are unstoppable. If you got Shane Steichen, if you've got Kellynne Moore, your Super Bowl contender. But then if you hire the wrong guy after that guy leaves, you're struggling again.

And it does feel like the Eagles, they're going to fire this offensive coordinator eventually, or they're going to egg his house so much that he's just going to quit. Then you're going to hire somebody else who will be great, and then you'll be back in the Super Bowl. It just seems like the yo-yo that the Eagles are on. Yeah, are you comparing, like, Kevin Petullo to, like, Danger Mouse?

I mean, I'm just trying to think of, like, who produced, like, the ass red hot chili pepper albums. Like, I'm with you. Like, that was Rick Rubin, though. So. Oh, that's true. Yeah, maybe it's falling apart there a little bit. I like where you're coming from. But, yeah, the getaway, that was the Danger Mouse one.

Return of the Dream Canteen. These are all albums I remember the names of, by the way, which, by the way, is not the album I'm talking about. Yeah, I think maybe Nick Siriani is Rick Rubin. Maybe, like, Kevin Petulow is like the. Dave Navarro of this metaphor, which I am fully dedicated to this metaphor, by the way. Yeah, but that would mean that this season would be one that you would want to revisit because it's more entertaining than it gets credit for.

And I mean, this guy's probably more of a Klinghoffer than a Navarro. You know, so like a Navarro season would be you score a ton of points, but you don't win very much. You know, that would be, because Navarro's playing six solos on songs that nobody likes. but they're fun to listen to. Where it's Klinghofer, he's playing on these records that just aren't very fun. And people feel like this should be more successful than it is. But it just is a drag to listen to.

So, yeah, maybe more. By the way, to our fans, if you want like six more hours of, like, Eagles, Red Hot Chili Peppers content, like, I am ready to rock. I am ready to see this through through its logical conclusion. What else can we compare to the Red Hot Chili Pepper? I don't know that. I feel we need an Indycast historian to go through the episodes. to figure out how many times we've compared something to the red hot chili peppers.

They do have the kind of history where you can draw from some incident and liken it to something else. I mean, it's a rich tapestry that I think is very conducive to making analogies and comparisons. Well, enough about this. We want to get to our favorite albums of 2025 list. Ian and I each have five albums that we picked. But before we get to that, we should talk about a row. record that is out this week.

And to me, this is the great post-list season record that's out in December. Obviously, last year we had heavy metal by Cameron Winter. That was the record that wasn't on any list, really, because it came out. I think that album actually came out December 6th, which is the date. If lists aren't coming out on that day, it's like right around that day. So that album was overlooked last year and some people tried to cheat and put it on this year's list.

That's cheating. I'm sorry. That's fraudulent. We're not going to do that here. But this next record that we're going to talk about, which is by This is Lorelei, the great songwriting project by Nate Amos, also in the band, Water from Your Eyes.

This album is on my year end list because I interviewed Nate last month. I had an article of a Q&A with him that ran an Uprocks last week. So I did get it on my list. I think it's a great record. And for those who don't know, this is Lorelei,

long-running project for Nate Amos. He's put out scores of releases on Bandcamp, up to 70, I think. I think it's actually 67, but there may be one or two, give or take a few albums. Let's just call it nearly 70. Not all those are albums.

Some of them are EP, some of them are single releases, but it's a lot of music. and the record that he just put out today, it's called Hollow Boy, H-O-L-O-Boy. It's a kind of greatest hits album covering that band camp era. He took about a dozen or so songs and re-recorded them, and he didn't change him that much. Like, the way I listen to this record is I'd listen to a song on the album,

and then I go back, and then I listen to the band camp equivalent, And that's something I would recommend you do as well if you check out this record. Nate Amos, when I told him that, he was very pleased because he said that's what I hope people would do when they listen to this album. But it really is like a skeleton key, I guess, for appreciating this big body of work that he put out before his record last year that he released, which was called Box for Buddy, Box for Star. Kind of his breakout record. I mean, he's still not a huge name. Like, if I was going to make a comparison, I would say that that record in a way is like, his boat songs. And the next full-fledged, this is Lorelei record, I think could be his Manning

Fireworks. I really think that he is one of the great songwriters that has come out of the indie world this decade. This is going to sound a little grandiose, and I know this will probably annoy some people because it's a very boomer-coded comparison to make. But I do think that, in my own mind, at least, there's a triumvirate of songwriters where M.J. Lenderman is the Neil Young. Cameron Winters the Bob Dylan and I think Nate Emos is like the Paul McCartney Like he is a tune smith And he puts out a lot of music

And he just has this way Of constructing songs Where There's like an endless supply Of like just kind of perfectly written Two-minute pop tunes that have like a chorus Great verse Probably a bridge in there

You know he's kind of giving you These little perfect You know Morsels of melody each song and he's playful, he's working in different genres, but he really is kind of like a virtuoso with that kind of thing.

So this record, I would really recommend dig into this album. It is, I think, the great album to come out in December, particularly in the indie world. Have you, have you gotten to this? Like, you're a This is Lorelei fan, right? Yeah, totally.

And we had a mailback question the other week about whether someone saw me at the This Is Lorelei show in San Diego. I was not at that show. but yeah i i guess this gets into the distinction between yourself and myself where i don't listen to music before 1993 so while you're bringing up like bob villain paul mccartney and neil young um i'm gonna tread lightly and say that this kind of reminds me of aerial pink not like in a where it's like you know how like we try to get like grimes without grimes arcade fire without arcade fire like

are like 2010's favorites who've gotten kind of canceled like Nate Amos reminds me of how like Ariel Pink would have these kind of corrupted perfect pop songs where there's like a kitsch and a goofiness that kind of overshadows just what a consummate songwriter he is. Either that or Hollow Boy is the new Teens of Denial, which was by the way, I can't believe that album is 10 years old. Like next year I'm going to have to do a 10 year anniversary of teens of style. But it's like a really cool way to because I was like you. I'm like, I cannot listen to all 67 of these release. same way with like car seat headrest how there was so much material and i appreciate them coming up with like a greatest band camp hits and presenting it to us so yeah i really do like this

record a lot i'm very interested in what comes next from him um i do think that if not like an mj lendersman level um i don't think that there's going to be that level of parasocial uh talk around Nate Amos. But I do think it could be a deal where he gets bigger than water from your eyes in the same way that like MJ Lenderman might be a bigger draw than Wednesday. You know, great songwriter seems like a solid guy.

I don't know if I would put this on a year end list if only because it's like kind of previously available music in the same way that I wonder sometimes do I put live albums in there. Well, it's a newly recorded version. So it's not a pure compilation. I think it belongs

just because it, does put these songs in a different context, and they are new versions of it. I know that there have been other examples of this, too, like where people recorded old things that they'd post on band camp. I mean, Carcy Headrest, Twin Fantasy, comes to mind as an immediate example. I also think that a lot of the songs that he's drawing from, or these releases, aren't really well-known at all outside of just hardcore. This is Lorelei people. So I don't know.

I put it on my list because I know what you're saying, but I think that this holds together as an album on its own rather than just like a playlist that someone made of songs from his old record. So I think it does work as a record. Okay, well, let's get finally to the main event here talking about our favorite albums of 2025. Before we get into that, I feel like last week we talked a bit about trends from 2025, just in relation to other year and

list that we've seen. And we'll get more into it next week. We're going to do our indie cast these episode, our end of the year, extravaganza. But just as a basic question, and you don't have to go too deep on this because we want to get to our list, but do you think this was a good year for music? You know, whether or not this was like a good year for music in general, I, I, I, I, I enjoyed myself because this is probably the first time since 2013. Like, I'm not making that up where my album of the year is something that's in everyone's top five. So that feels pretty nice to be connected in that way. But I also think that it's a good year in that a lot of the trends that I can discern are things that align with Arte, so therefore it must be good.

You know, like indie rock felt like it was back. If not like in a cultural 2005-2009 way, there was still, like we were talking about last time, it felt more indie rock. And there were a couple of distinct trends. And more so, really. I mean, yeah, not fully 2000s, but more than it has been in a long time, I would say. Yeah. And also, you know, there were like way, there were like discernible trends. Like, you know, artists that were influenced by David Berman, a lot of artists on the 80-93 label,

unmastered album core that I could actually clock in real time. Taylor Swift got some like actual blowback for once. We got a new raft of male pop stars. And they're really easy to make fun of on Twitter, which is great for people like ourselves who, you know, want to follow pop trends but don't want to, you know, lose our jobs. I don't know if somber or a role model or Benson Boone hive rides like that. We got like an actual truly great Deftones record. Yeah, I think there are like, as far as like what this all means, if we're going to talk about

this year and the way we talked about like 2013 as like a real turning point or 2011 for that matter. I'm not so sure, but I think it was a good year. Yeah, I think, you know, 2024 to me felt pretty historic. It felt like the beginning of the 2020s. In a way, it also felt like the beginning of the 21st century in a lot of ways. I mean, that's a little over-dramatic, but I really feel that last year and this year, it feels like it really accelerated. A lot of the things that we've come to assume or expect about music and culture and the internet have really starting to fall away. Like faster and faster and faster. And there are things that are coming in to replace it. Some of which is really exciting. Some of it is pretty scary. But we're all

grappling with it in real time. I feel like what was happening in 2024, what was starting to happen, it was just like more of that this year. And I would say that, you know, music-wise, it was a really good year. There's a lot of records that I like. I think what's exciting is that, you know, I look at my top five. None of the artists in my top five have ever been in my top five. And some of them have never even been on a list that I've made before. You know, it feels like in spite of everything, in spite of the odds being stacked against them,

that, like, new and emerging artists are really making an impression more so than they have in a long time. It feels like in music that we were really dominated by the same pop stars for a long time. It felt like they were controlling the discourse. And, you know, this was a year with a Taylor Swift record. And there was a lot of conversation about her, but relative to other years, I feel like it was less. And I feel like she faded faster than she has before. And meanwhile, there were other artists coming along that I feel like we're able to kind of stick around. including those in the indie space.

And I have a feeling we're going to talk about one of the big ones on our respective lists. But to me, that's very encouraging that at a time where it feels like the algorithm is making it harder for like the little guy or not even the little guy, but someone who's not a bohemist to make an impression, those artists from the outskirts are still finding a way to get in people's time. lines and their faces, you know, in their eardrums and make an impression. So I think that's really inspiring and great. And hopefully that'll be reflected in our list here. We should get to it here, Ian. We're each going to share a top five. We're going to go back and forth here on our numbers. So why don't you go first? What is your number five favorite album of 2025? All right. So I'm working currently on a most overlooked or, you know, my favorite overlooked the albums list for uprocks. I do it every year. And, you know, a lot of times it's stuff that people

have heard of but just maybe haven't made a lot of lists. And when I make this list, I think about what does this not serve as a substitute for, but like what is this in the style of as far as things that made a ton of year-end list? And the album I'm talking about is real lies we will annihilate our enemies. I think I've talked about this one in a recommendation corner. You think about like if the streets made We Become Heroes like the only song they ever made. And then you think about, like, if the streets made, made. I just love like a like a rave beat and the guy talking about his rave memories. There was a lot of music this year that I think people gravitated towards because it gave the impression. It's like, hey, we're not like shut in weirdos. We're actually going out to the club. I think that Smur's album

that popped up on a lot of lists as an example of it. You know, FKA Twigs, like you sexual as an album like that. And this album really stuck to me because it's not necessarily about going out and going to the club it's like your memories of having do having done that uh fun fact that there was like a couple of uh deaf tones references on this and one of the guys and realized uh he ended up being the editor of the vice issue of like the vice deftones issue that i did a cover story for i like put two and two together i couldn't believe it so maybe i'm a little biased but uh yeah this is an album if you're the type of person who like likes the idea of having a record about going out to the club but like all of your going out memories are like 10 years in the past.

This album's great. I'm like a little shocked at how little attraction this is getting in year end lists. So is the moral here that if you give Ian freelance work, he'll put your record in his top five? Is that the moral of the story, Ian? No, I mean, like this was in there before he did it. Wow, so that's a cherry on the Sunday then. Yeah, it's like, wait a minute.

Why does this name look familiar? Like, oh, because like, I don't know the names of these guys. Yeah, I mean, MJ Lenderman, can you hook me up with some freelance work? I mean, I feel like I wrote a lot about your record. Maybe he could be an editor somewhere. My number five record is called New Threats from the Soul by Ryan Davis in the Roadhouse band. And in my little preamble a minute ago, I talked about how 2020, how 2025 in a lot of ways felt like an extension of 2024, things that we saw starting to happen. I felt like it really accelerated or carried over to this year.

And Ryan Davis, to me, feels like an artist who would not have gotten the attention that he did this year, if not for touring with MJ Lenderman last year. And being tangential to that whole Lenderman Wednesday scene that's been going on. Ryan Davis has been making records for a while now, 20 years. He's from Louisville, was in Chicago for a long time. So he's not part of that North Carolina world. But certainly his music is very much in the same style. David Berman is an artist that often gets brought up in comparison to him. I think a lot of that has to do with his voice.

He kind of sings in this affected low tenor. His lyrics are also very dense, just filled with a mix of sort of tragic observations and like funny one-liners, which again is a hallmark of David Berman's songwriting. I will say that Ryan Davis to me really carves his own path by the ambition of his songs and the scope and the complexity. This record only has seven tracks, and several of them go on for longer than 10 minutes. And they really feel like whirled onto themselves. He also has a great backing band, the Roadhouse Band, that has a capability to, you know, do that country rock thing that is endemic to records like this.

But also, you know, they can kind of slip into like a hat tip to like, you know, like Southern hip hop or, you know, something that even sounds almost like Prague rock played on steel guitars. So there's a lot going on, I think, musically with this. band that cuts against the grain of like a record like this, but it also delivers the goods that you want from an album in this style, which again is just great lyrics and that kind of melancholy late-night sound. So this is really good record, very critically acclaimed, and I was happy to be one of the supporters of it, happy to see it in my top five, New Threats from the Soul by Ryan Davis and the Roodehouse Band. What's your number four record, Ian? all right so i wanted to you know i wanted to find something that split the different like i know you

have like a theory of like what people put at number four what people put at number three what goes on at number nine and uh for me this is like a spot where i want to have something that is interesting but something i listened to a lot like what were the albums that i put on like in the car when i didn't really know what i wanted to listen to something like kind of newish and interesting and This is where OK, Luz choke enough comes into play. This is a record that I think is indicative. Like when we're talking about like, what it was this a good year? I think every year has to have its like decade list starter pack.

You know, the albums that you're going to think about like immediately of like, what are we going to put to represent 2025? And, you know, an album that we're probably going to talk about in the near future is up there, like the Dijon record, maybe Rosalia or Bad Bunny. but this one speaks to like a lot of trends that were happening right now. Like I mentioned her as being kind of a Grimes without Grimes sort of thing. It's really hard to remember how like revolutionary, you know, vision sounded in 2012. But, you know, like as far as like the music that's coming out of Copenhagen right now, like Cloud Rock, you want to call it that,

this kind of disconnected sort of like internet pop music. And I don't want to say like, oh, the songs are just. just great at their core. There are great songs like Bladebirds, an incredible song. I love ice cream truck. But it's just an album that like you get something new out of it every single time. There's something really elusive about it lyrically and musically that makes it more interesting to me than albums that like hit me more quickly. Like initially I didn't quite understand the hype. But the more I listen to it, the more I think if you want to understand where, you know, for lack of a better term, indie or just like music, you know,

true north of music criticism is in 2025. This is a real good encapsulation of that. All right. I do not know that record, but I will dive into that one based on your recommendation. At my number four spot, you know, you talked about where I put different records

or where I predict other people put their records. You know, I have this thing, I think, lately, where there's always, like, one album that sneaks into my top five that I really enjoyed during the year, but I wouldn't have necessarily thought, oh, this is going to be like one of my favorite records of the year. And then it just ends up in my top five because I just listen to it all the time.

And it's usually like the same kind of record. It's like a really good kind of songwriting record, really catchy pop rock songs that aren't really connected to anything bigger. You know, there's no narrative to it. There's no sort of connection to anything else that's happening musically. It's just like a really good album that I think I'm going to be listening to for a long time. I mean, like in recent years, like that Super Violet record was that for me in 2023. Last year, it was like the Liquid Mike record that was the mainstay. And this year, it's a record called Clams Casino by a New York singer-songwriter named Brian Dunn.

And I've talked about this record a little bit on this show. I wrote about it on my substack. Dunn is this guy. He's put out several records, kind of flown under the radar. Although I think this record has gotten a little bit more press. I know it was reviewed by Pitchfork, for instance. and I think it's done pretty well critically. Still, not a ton of people talking about him.

And I think it's because, you know, there's something about what he does where it's a very kind of straightforward version of like 80s and 90s Heartland Rock. And there are people working in that style now, but there's usually some sort of like ironic component or like a postmodern component or doing something with the production

that makes it sound maybe like not as straightforward or clean sounding as like those records from 20, 30 years ago. And Brian Dunn doesn't do any of that. Like he is just working in that style. He is working as if he was signed to like Geffen Records in 1994. You know, if you just transplanted that guy into the modern world, I think you'd have Brian Dunn right now. And it's an album that I just find really infectious.

I mean, the comparison I've landed on recently with this album is that kind of reminds me musically of like a found. Mountain of Wayne, like welcome interstate managers type record. Having also like the lyrical sensibility of that, like kind of like a work-a-day stiff, trying to make sense of like these mundane triumphs and failures in his life. And it's kind of funny in the same way that record is, although, again, like the snark side of Fountains of Wayne, like the ironic aspect of what they do. I don't really hear that in Brian Dunn's music. It's a pretty straightforward replication of that. But he's just like a really, really good songwriter.

This record, I've just found it to be really addictive and really enjoyable. And I'm just like, I'm putting this in my top five. I've listened to this as much as any other record on this list. So I'm putting it here. I definitely think it deserves a higher profile than it's gotten. Again, it's called Clams Casino and the artist is Brian Dunn. The way you framed it, like, saying Clams Casino first, I thought you were like listening to like 2011 Cloud Rap, like Man Attractions or something like

I love that Clamps Casino tape, man. I'm going to listen to it probably after we're done recording. My number three, and, you know, speaking of articles I'm, like, late on deadline with, you know, I'm doing, once again, my top emo albums list for Up Rocks. And I feel like I've said this every single year. I've done this list. But it's like, man, like, where's like the, where's like, there's a lot of good albums? Like, where's, like, the classic?

Where's our home like no plays? where's our harmlessness, where's, you know, like basking in the glow. And it feels a little bit like saying, you know, Clips made the best rap record of the year in that, you know, well, I'm talking, of course, about Algernon Kedwalader's trying not to have a thought. By saying, yeah, this is clearly the best album of this genre. It almost like patting yourself on the back for not being into all the newer trends. Like, yeah, it was okay for me to, like, not pay attention to what all these youngans are doing.

that would be there's an alternate universe where that's true but this record not only the best reunion emo album of the past 10 some odd years which you know includes like the braid album which is great no coast which includes the american football album and this third american football album um i mean it's not as you know transformative as their self-title from 2008 but i think people sold this album short by saying that like yeah this is like how emo is supposed to sound like this is telling all the young kids how it's done to me this was you know with a few exceptions the best indie rock album of the year you know they described it as a combination of cap and jazz and pavement and i really do think that's true in the sense that grounded the specific pavement song off wowie zowie is kind of Midwesty it's kind of

twinkly with it if you like grounded i think this is an album for you and this is an album that doesn't sound like they pick up right where they left off. It sounds like if they kept making records for the past 14 years, you know, that sounded a little more like Hopalong. I know Joe from the band's also in Hopalong, this is where you would end up. And, you know, maybe it's a little too narrow in terms of scope to be on a bunch of year-end list. I'm kind of, I don't think I've seen it on any, but it's like if you're the type of person who like sees no distinction between emo and indie rock, then this is about as good as it gets.

Yeah, that's a classic Ian Cohen pick for sure. In my number three spot, I'm going to go with the classic Stephen Hyden Pick, which is the album by Flory, sounds like. Again, another band, part of that M.J. Lenderman Wednesday Galaxy. They're not from North Carolina. They're from Philly and the main songwriter Francie. She's up in, I think, Vermont now. But definitely is in that kind of country rock indie Americana world. Although the thing with Florey is that they're definitely more on the rock side.

when I wrote about this record this year, I think at the headline it said something like, this is indie rock that actually rocks. And when I say it rocks, I mean like in the classic sense. Like this is the rare indie rock record that I would compare to the Rolling Stones. Now, it's funny because there's like two records

in my top three that I would compare to the Rolling Stones. I am not used to doing that in the indie rock world, certainly in the past like 20, 25 years. But Flory has that. And in their case, It's like Rolling Stones like bootlegs. It's very sloppy, but also it just has like a ton of swagger, a ton of spirit to it. And then you have the fancy, modosha's lyrics, which are very, you know, again, like story-oriented

and have like a strong sense of place and perspective. And, you know, I just think about seeing this band live this year is like one of my favorite shows that I saw in 2025. And it was just so much joy on stage, tons of like guitar faces during. like extended solos and they busted out like a cowbell at one point and it was just banging out a cowbell and just so much spirit so much fun you know it it does feel like an antidote to the kind of previous era of indie music that I feel like we had in the late 2010's early 2020s where just felt like very hushed very quiet very sort of introspective very in and this is

the antithesis of that very out very big very you know let's just tie one on and have a great night type vibe that's definitely true of the live show i think it carries over to the records and it was just one of the most infectious rock records that i've listened to all year and i keep returning to it uh return to it throughout 2025 so it's a big hit for me it's at number three on my list sounds like by flory all right so for my number two and this is a record I've talked about all through the year. I mean, when we talk about, and you've alluded to this, about how a good year can be one where artists you completely don't anticipate being in your top five end up there. I mean, there are a lot of artists I really, really love who put out record that

helped serve, you know, like I was thinking about putting Billy Woods in there. You know, Caroline, their record, loved it a lot. Alex G., you know, deaf tones, turnstile, but wouldn't have thought in a million years that Benjamin Booker would have a record that would be number one on my list for most of the year, which is no, you know, no offense against his past work, which is good in its own way, but it's not like my sort of thing. And this is an album I'm like debating on whether or not it belongs in an overlooked album's list because is it overlooked or is it just not getting the attention that I think it deserves? This is sort of like the, I guess the evil brother of an album which I imagine both of us are going to be putting in our top two, where it is a

indie rock person into like kind of rootsy rock, but they link up with a hip hop producer. In this case, a guy named Kenny. This one, though, is Kenny Siegel, and one of the guys who does like the Billy Woods albums. And it's just like a really dark, dense, paranoid album that isn't explicitly, I mean, it's explicitly political in many ways, but not like about the truth. Trump era because it was written during the Biden era. But it really hit the spot when it came out in early 2025. I haven't said it already.

The name of the album is lower. Really interesting sonically. It has some great pop songs as well, like that you would think, oh, if the black keys weren't completely washed, you know, maybe this would be a good, like a song that would be in a car commercial sort of like theirs. Really cool guy to talk to and just super interesting sonically. It reminds me a lot. I've been trying to go through the tricky discography lately because like everyone's like,

oh, yeah, man, like this is paranoia, like done excellently. Like, this is the most, like, if you feel like you're going a bit nuts and like there's reason for that, I think Benjamin Booker's lower really spoke to that. And, you know, it's got it's a, it's a five bagger, as they say, you know, it's got like really great pop songs. It's got really interesting sonics. It's cool if you're into hip hop. It's cool if you're into trip hop.

It's cool if you're in just like indie rock. or soul, a little baffle how this isn't accompanying in the top 10 with another record, very similar to it. So for my number two record, I was talking a little bit earlier about being attracted to the Brian Dunn record because it wasn't really part of any kind of a larger story.

It was just like a really charming album that I went back to over and over again. But with my number two record, I mean, this definitely was a story that I was attracted to. and it's part of why I love the record so much. The story didn't really catch on in a broad way, but I think that for people that know this guy,

if you're into his music, it was a reason to celebrate that there was a new album by Bill Fox in 2025. That record is called Residence. It's my number two album of the year. And for those who don't know, Bill Fox, I wrote about him. I think this was back in March or April. He is sort of an obscure,

your indie rock cult hero got started in the 80s playing with a band called The Mice. They're from Ohio. A real important kind of precursor band to guided by voices. Robert Pollard has talked about the Mice being really influential and encouraging to him as he was getting started with his own band. And then in the 90s, Bill Fox transitioned to a solo act, and he put out two wonderful records that are kind of like Bob Dylan records. like with a GV sensibility, you know, a guy with a guitar, harmonica, lo-fi, recorded in his house.

You can hear like the TV playing in the background of one song. And then he disappears and doesn't put on any music for a long time. And is heralded as this figure who in some ways people want to liken to like a Sid Barrett or a Daniel Johnston, just in terms of how mysterious, enigmatic he is, except Bill Fox is just like a regular guy. Like there's no sort of mental health issues with him. There's no, like, grand drama going on. He seems like an authentic person who, like, does not want to be famous.

Like, he authentically does not want any kind of fame. A lot of people talk about that, but this guy has gone out of his way to be anonymous for decades now. And he occasionally will pop up and put out a record. I think he put out an album last about maybe 15 years ago. But he was back this year, came out of nowhere with this album. It's interesting listening to it because it's hard to know exactly how old these songs are. I think he's a guy that just plays songs, records them, and then he will occasionally release them as an album.

There's one song in this record, for instance, called Man O' War that references Norman Schwartzcoff from like the Operation Desert Storm in the early 90s. So that song's probably pretty old. But the songs are wonderful. You know, again, he's back making Bill Fox music. It doesn't veer dramatically from what he was doing before. But he's such a great artist, and he's one of those people that if you don't know his work, you need to know it.

And once you know it, he just becomes one of your favorite artists. And I know, like I wrote about him this year, and I've heard from people that were introduced to him through that article or through this record, and now they're listening to his old music and just a wonderful story, wonderful dude, and it's a record that I've not grown tired of. I don't know when this album was made,

but it sounds like 2025 to me, and I listen to it as much as any record I heard this year. So Bill Fox, Residence, at number two, and now is time for our number one record. Will it be a different record? We'll see. I don't know. I don't know what you picked.

You don't know what I picked, although I've been pretty upfront about what I'm going to pick. what is your number one record of the year Ian yeah so as i talked about early on it felt pretty nice to have a record in my top spot that was like in every other top five of course i'm talking about los thutanaka uh the self-titre record really interrogating a lot of cultural now i'm i'm obviously talking about geese getting killed um which look i was not huge on heavy metal I thought it was interesting.

I thought Love Takes Miles was a great song, but I found it a little bit much. But I always thought like, okay, I'll return to it. Maybe I'll get into it. But yeah, for the moment I heard taxes, you know, because like I reviewed Projector in 2021, and I thought this band was just like, I don't know, they were going to go the way

like the French kicks or something like that. But, yeah, like the, this is a record that, I mean, I think for me, it's like the, my white whale is just, records that make me feel like 2005, which is to say like being 25 and just like really being in the middle of the narrative. And when I like this is such a well sequenced album. Like I mean, there's been already so much said about it.

But like I think the sequencing really is important in the sense that like Trinidad is like, that's how you begin an album of the year. And Long Island City here I come when it's done and the way it ends, it's like, oh yeah, I just listen to the album of the year here. It's just so interesting from the songwriting perspective, from the production. You know, like, I've seen people bring up radio head as like a comparison for the vocals. But the only way that really sticks for me is the way the production uses like stereo panning. Like it's such an interesting headphones album.

And it makes a lot of really interesting unorthodox choices. It integrates, you know, some clatt. Like we've talked about black crows, blind melon rolling stones. Like these artists that were just completely off the radar for indie rock for so. long. And so that's how it sounds like both classic and fresh at the same time. And I also think that seeing them live and specifically seeing them live on Halloween really drilled at home, just an incredible show. People are so stoked on it. It's a record that has real-time impact. And yeah, it just felt like when I remember 2025, even outside like, oh, brain rock, political,

AI, whatever you want to talk about. This is just the album that will remind me of, 2025. I think it's bulletproof. I just listened to it yesterday. I'm not even remotely tired of it. And I'll be listening to it throughout the next year and beyond that. So I don't think it was any. It was never even close. Yeah, it's my number one as well. I called this when I wrote it. I just felt like, okay, it's going to be hard for anything to top this. It just checked all the boxes for me. They're the kind of band that you listen to them. And they can remind you of like a million in other bands that you've loved in the past, but they don't really sound like any of them.

You know, I've seen some disingenuous criticisms that, oh, they're just ripping off this or they're ripping off that. But if you actually listen to the record, I don't think that there's any kind of like one-to-one comparison that you can make. You know, like no band comes out of the muck fully original and not tied to anything else.

The point is, can they integrate the things that they were influenced by in a way that feels exciting and vital and fresh to the moment that you're in. And to me, getting killed, unquestionably does all those things. I think seeing them live, as you said, just reiterated the feelings I had listening to the record. And also, I'm going to say, again, 3D country is an album that I really loved a lot when that came out. Obviously, heavy metal, the Cameron Winter album was building to this.

I think I do prefer this album ultimately to heavy metal. Heavy metal is a great record, but I love what he does. does with the band, in a way I think because just having a great indie rock band that is in the zeitguise, it's such a novelty at this point. There are so many great bands. We talk about so many bands, bands that I love, but they don't have that extra element that allows them to translate on a bigger level. And we call it the juice on this show. You could call it whatever you want, but it is this intangible thing. You can call it cool. You can call it swagger. I don't know. It's hard to put your finger on. But like with geese, they do have that thing. When you look at them, you see them on stage that there is an extra level excitement that goes beyond just being a great band. When you feel like, okay, they're doing something right now that feels definitive for the time. And, you know, I understand people are going to listen to this band and they're not all going to love it. And they're going to be mad that they're getting so much hype. I do think that I do think that I do think that. I do think that.

there's been less of a backlash with this band than I would have expected. Because I do think with Cameron Winter's vocals and just them being a New York band and some of the particulars of their biography, you know, it's not like the strokes where when they came out, they got a lot of hype, but there were a lot, a lot of vocal haters of that band. And Geese has their haters too, but I don't know, maybe this is just the circles I go in. I think it tends to be the people that hate everything, you know, like the 51-year-old guy. on Twitter who, you know, is going to get engagement because they just like crap on everything. And that's their worldview. And they don't really like, they're not going to like anything no matter what. So it doesn't really matter. It's not really a judgment on the band.

It's more of a reflection of that person's kind of miserable sensibility. And not to say that if you hate this band, you're miserable. You know, a lot of people don't like this band, whatever. But I do think that because there hasn't been like a hyped band like this in a while, It does feel maybe a little bit fresher than it would normally. And again, just the quality of the record, you know, you said it earlier, like how well sequence it is, how well it builds. I think the balance of it between slow songs and fast-paced songs.

I remember hearing it for the first time, it just felt like one of those records. It felt like a classic record right away. And again, what makes a record classic? I don't know. it's hard to define it in a specific way, but you know when you hear it. And I heard that in this album, and a lot of people have. And I think that they're going to be an important band for a long time. And it's exciting to have a band like this.

You know, even if we're going to debate them, even if you're not into them, to, like, argue about a band like this. It's exciting. I'm glad they're here. And they made this show more fun to do. And they made being a music fan more fun. and they made being a music critic more fun. And it's a great record, great band. And this is our first shared number one, too, I think.

It has to be. I think we've had ones in the top five in the past, but never number one. And this kind of gets into the novelty of which you spoke, where it's like, this was great in that, like, it was a unifier of a lot of people. And at the same time, it reminded me a little bit of, like, 2005-era indie where it's like, yeah, I don't blame it. anyone if like they find it a little bit off putting.

I've said this before that, you know, all, I think the greatest indie band should at least be like kind of 10% annoying. You know, that was true of Animal Collective. That was true. Right. You know, Sufyan, LCD sound system. Like, there's got to be something that rubs people the wrong way. Yeah, like I hate the guy's voice.

Yeah. I hate that they were affluent kids from, you know, whatever it is. Like, it's, yeah, exactly. I agree with that. Yeah. Like, sonically, there's got to be something that rubs because, like, what makes it indie? It's like got to be something that rubs people the wrong way And something that people like can actually have fun with making fun of

You know what I mean? I think the people who are geese fans There was never like oh like you've offended me sir Like I think people were kind of pretty pretty cool about it Yeah and you know yeah they cover the new radicals And we get like a week's worth of jokes about that You know that's great you know okay we can do that It feels a little

More normal to debate that kind of thing or argue about that kind of of thing than some of the things we've had maybe in the years before this that kind of weird era that I think that we're coming out of. But at the same time, you know, I do feel like they're the kind of band that like people like us can get into because they're like for me, I see them as part of a continuum of artists that I've loved throughout time where I think they do bring something new to the table, but I can also see what connects them to bands before them. But then there's like the 21-year-old kid

who just listened to this record and heard heavy metal maybe last year and just had their mind blown and they think this is the greatest music they've ever heard and they don't care about anything that came before and they probably got really pissed off at me when I compared Cameron Winter to Bob Dylan because like screw you like this is something new.

Like we don't want to connect it to something else. I love that too. I love that you can hear that in this band, that they can be a young person band and then you can have like the old gray beards on the periphery of the club who are also into it. I don't know. I think they have that kind of vibe to them and, uh, you know, let's keep the substance abuse problems away from them. Let's keep, uh, you know, the skeezy record label. Let's try to keep the negative influences

away from these guys. They seem pretty focused. And they're not all guys. I'm sorry, it's, because you got Emily Green, the great guitar play. It's not all guys. It's obviously a, you got men, you got women, you got everybody in this band. Great band, great record. Our shared number one. What a time to be alive, Ian. What a time to be alive, indeed. So that about does it for this episode of Indycast.

We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixedape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.