Indiecast - Is The New Big Thief Album A Letdown? Also: Radiohead Returns To The Road For The First Time In Seven Years

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Steven and Ian begin with a cute story about Michael Stipe logging into Bluesky and clarifying commonly misstated lyrics for R.E.M.'s "It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)," the latest stop on the band's world-class old-guy retirement (1:43). They also talk about news that Radiohead is going back on the road for the first time in seven years (8:13).Steven also does a quick Sportscast on the Packers acquiring Micah Parsons, and what this means for the team's Super Bowl chances (13:16). From there, they do an update on the Fantasy Albums Draft, which looks very close (18:33). Then they review the new Big Thief album, and discuss where one of the most acclaimed indie bands of recent years stands now (26:15). After that, they do a "yay or nay" segment on Slipknot (43:36).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about post-hardcore band La Dispute and Steven goes for '90s-style country singer Zach Top (47:43).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 254 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycasts. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the new album by Big Thief. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's been singing, It's the End of the World as we know it. Wrong at karaoke this whole time.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? I mean, it's true. At least since 2021, I've been inserting lyrics from RXK Nephews, the real Lil Reese and you'd be surprised how well it works. Wow. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what that song is, so I'm just going to like nod my head and pretend.

Like that is one of the blind spots between you and me. I guess that's the equivalent of like the pontoon boat country records that I talk about on this podcast. That's what that, what is it, RXK Nephew? RXK Nephew. I say it's more like the jam band stuff because a lot of his songs. are also 11 minutes long and he just goes off on these riffs so uh you know the first person who yeah we're the first podcast it's like going to cover goose and rxk nephew going deep in their bag to make

14 minutes song so that's why that's why we survived this long goose though is maybe too big i got to dig it into like eggy you know eggy is coming up now they're they've taken like the spot that goose used to have because goose is now full-fledged arena rock jam band but eggy now is the upstart. So I have to dig into them. So I was referring to in the introduction there, a story that was reported this week. Not really reported. It was just observed. Michael Stipe went on blue sky, which is just perfect. That is the Michael Stipe social media platform. He went on blue sky this week and he clarified some lyrics from, it's the end of the world as we know it, that he says people have been getting wrong the whole time. And he started, I don't know if you saw this, this blue sky thread, this skeet. I think they

called skeeting over there. But he started with the Simpsons meme. I did see that, yeah. Yeah. So catering to the Ian Cohen demographic with that. But it wasn't the one that, it wasn't the episode that R.E.M was actually on the Simpsons. No, it was, what was it again? It was like the, the bit where it's like, I can, I can tell that it's not butter. And the other guys, like, I, I, I, I, No one can tell that. Right. And Stipe comes in and says, you know, I can tell you with the actual lyrics to, it's the end of the world as we know it are.

And he's like, well, no one can tell you that, but Michael Stipe can. And he singled out this one line that he says people often get wrong on the internet. It's the line where he says, left of west and coming in a hurry with the furries coming down your neck, or breathing down your neck, I should say. Furries or furies? I think it's furies, actually. It's not furries because it's capitalized. He capitalized it.

So furries, it's not like, you know, people dressing up in the, you know, animal costumes. Not car seat headrest fans, you know. Yes, exactly. Furies, I think that's a, is that a reference to the Warriors? Because the baseball furies are a gang in the Warriors. I would imagine it's probably like Greek or Greek mythology, but, uh, maybe. Yeah. It'd be amazing.

Team by team reporters, baffled, Trump, tethered, cropped. Look at the, look at the low playing fine. And then these are hard lyrics to read if you're just reading them off the page. But anyway, I thought that was pretty cute. Michael Stipe clarifying the lyrics to this classic song and doing it on Blue Sky. Maybe the first fun thing that's ever happened on Blue Sky. Can we check the record here? If it's not the most fun, if it's not the first fun thing, it's maybe in the top five of most fun things.

Not a very fun platform is what I'm saying. So I'm glad that Michael Stipe injected some levity into the blue sky universe. I think that's the greatest accomplishment of this band. I mean, they've done a lot of everything R.E.M. has done while they were famous and especially after they became famous and retired has just been fun. Like, I don't, I can't think of any band or any artists who had reached their level who has aged more gracefully. Like R.E.M never does, like, you know, Peter Buck, I think he's like making songs about baseball or something like that.

Well, it was in the baseball project with Mike Mills and Steve Wynn from the Dream Syndicate. Yeah, like they're on the road. They're just doing like fun middle age guy stuff. They're even beyond middle age. They're in their like mid to late 60s now.

So they're just like mid to late 60s, millionaires on the road playing songs about baseball. Michael Stipe going on Blue Sky. I was looking at who he follows on Blue Sky. And it's like all the people. He's following like Jasmine Crockett and people of that ilk.

And he's just tweeting out lyrics, tweeting out Simpsons memes. It's very adorable. You know, there's no ego here. They're not trying to like, oh, we're getting the band back together. We're going to put on leather pants. We're going to dye our hair and, you know, charge $500 for tickets. They're just

doing, they're living life. They're playing golf. They're playing baseball songs, doing Simpsons memes. It's a great rock and roll retirement. Yeah, they're the best. I mean, you would, even like when I was living in Athens, you would see Mike Mills hanging out. Like, he was just like

sit and having coffee. It was super cool. The most ethically admirable band of all time. Yeah, you can't beat it. And you made this point in the outline about the song, it's the end of the world as we know it, how that is part of a subgenre of songs where you're just like listing things.

Yes. And you're doing a lot of pop culture references. And it's one of the most debased genres of songs. Like if you think of other examples of that, you got We Didn't Start the Fire by Billy Joel, which is a song even Billy Joel hates. I actually don't hate it that much. I can performatively hate it,

but there's a part of me that thought that song was amazing when I was 11. Like when I was 11, I thought that song was, you know, that might as well have been like a Bob Dylan song. Did they make you listen to it in school? Like,

because that was something I vaguely remember that they mentioned in the documentary that teachers would make their kids listen to it. Which is an amazing thing because it's, you know, this is pre-internet. So we didn't have Wikipedia yet. We didn't have Google.

So just like a list of things was pretty mind-blowing back then. That you didn't have to look up in a book. It would just be like, oh, yeah, it's the Cola Wars. That's amazing. So you have that song. You have one week by Bear Naked Ladies. Which we talked about the worst songs of all time recently. That's got to be in the conversation for worst songs of all time.

That 1975 song, 117. if we made it, which people loved at the time. I feel like that song hasn't aged super well. But it's the end of the world as we know it. I feel like that song holds up. It's still a fun song to hear if you're doing it at karaoke. If you hear it at the gas station, it's not as cringy as all these other list songs. Yeah, it absolutely mastered the form because, I mean, it doesn't take itself all that seriously.

And I think just having it be in Tommy Boy. is a major factor in that. I don't think you could do that with We Didn't Start the Fire or Love It If We Made It, which, you know, I'm there on the record. I don't, that's not my favorite 1975 song. I think that's kind of one of the worst things that happen to them. I think they're better as a dumb band, not a smart dumb band or whatever you want to call it as. But yeah, anything REM does, like, just fantastic. Keep doing your thing.

Don't ever reunite. I've already seen you. I saw you on the monster tour in 1994. Grantley Buffalo opened. Yes. I'm okay with that being my enduring memory. Yeah, yeah. I don't think that's going to happen.

So you don't have to worry about that. Have it too much fun. Speaking of old rock bands on the road, this just dropped actually right before we started recording here on Thursday morning. What is it? What is it today? Today's Wednesday. Yeah, I know the day of the week.

It's the third, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I guess I don't know the day. the week because I said Thursday. It is Wednesday. We're recording one day earlier. Anyway, Radiohead announced that they are doing their first shows in seven years at the end of 2025. They're going to be playing, I believe, five cities in Europe and doing 20 shows total. They're playing Madrid. They're playing, is it Bologna, Bologna, Italy? London, Copenhagen and Berlin. shows start in early November and extend into about mid-December.

There's a, I thought, kind of a hilarious note that the band sent that is signed by Phil Selway, where he says, last year we got together to rehearse just for the hell of it. After a seven-year pause, it felt really good to play the songs again and reconnect with the musical identity that has become lodged deep inside of all five of us. Well, maybe not all five of you, maybe three of you. The other two guys seem to be doing the smile a lot lately. It also made us want to play some shows together, so we hope you can make it out to one of the upcoming dates for now.

It'll just be these ones, but who knows where this will all lead. I just love the idea that Radiohead, one of the most famous rock bands still in the world, and the members are just treating it like this group that they were in together, like, in college. It's like, oh, when we're hanging out having beers, we get a little tipsy, maybe we'll go down to the basement, pick up the guitars, have a little jam session, and who knows, maybe we'll play some shows. But I don't know, I mean, it's cool.

I have no expectation that this will come to America. Who knows what, or, I mean, much less result in a record. I mean, my assumption has just been that they've been broken up, that they broke up unofficially, and maybe they'll occasionally do shows. I mean, obviously they are going to do these. these shows in Europe, but they don't seem like a functioning band in the traditional sense at this point. No, not at all. I think it's kind of interesting that I found myself going on ultimate guitar and relearning how to play OK computer song. So, you know, something's in the air. But I just like

the idea of me, you know, like going, like emailing their PR company and being like, hey, no short notice. But is there a list for this show? Like, you know, can I get a lot? Plus one for this. No worries, if not. No worries. Just let's circle back. Yeah, exactly. I don't know.

Should be amazing, though. Yeah. Looking forward to hearing the bootlegs. Yeah, I may have seen Radiohead a Coachella around the time of King of Limbs, but other than that, I don't think I've seen them live since the Hale of the Thief tour. So, yeah, but I did see Adams for Peace, weirdly enough.

I was able to get into, like, one of those private shows back in. 20, 2007 or eight. But I would love to see Radiohead live. It's like I would move heaven and earth to make that happen. But that was the last time I tried to get Radiohead tickets was that 2018 tour. And I just got like, I was like so not even close on Ticketmaster to being anywhere near the waiting list. So. Yeah.

I mean, they haven't done like a kind of a conventional tour. I feel like since the King of Limbs era. Like where you go to a bunch of cities. Yeah. You play one show and you, you know, like just like a regular tour. Because that 2018 tour, I don't think they did that many dates in America. No, I think it was like five in L.A. or something like that. Well, they did five in L.A.

Because I don't know if they did multiple. Because that was the closest it came to me. And I couldn't go for some reason. But which I'm kicking myself for. I don't know what was going on. I should have guessed that they wouldn't tour again for a really long time. But there was that recent record that just dropped from the Hail to the Thief tour. I don't know if you heard that, that live album where it's a compilation.

And it's like, oh yeah, Radiohead is an incredible live band. Like, it's a really good stuff. And just the Hail to the Thief era too is really interesting. A lot of rockers from that time. And so, yeah, I don't know. Who knows with this band? But again, I'm glad they're getting the band back together after gathering in like the rec room basement, drinking some Heineken's. They plugged in the instruments and were like, hey, let's go out and play 20 shows and make, you know, what are they going to make from these shows?

Probably godly amounts of money. Yeah. It's like tens of millions of dollars at the end of the year. We have to do a quick sports cast segment here, Ian, because, you know, we recorded last week on Thursday. And I swear, as soon as we stopped recording, news dropped that the Packers traded for Micah Parsons. And it sort of invalidated our sports cast segment last week because I was talking about how I feel like the Eagles are just going to run away with the NFC. And that my team, the Packers, I think we're going to be good, but I don't think we really stand a serious shot at challenging the Eagles. And now it's like, I still think the Eagles are the best team.

and you're the favorite team and you probably will go to the Super Bowl. But I don't know, man, I feel more confident in our chances at this point. I know there's like some weird thing with like Micah Parsons back right now, but I'm disregarding that. But I just feel like this is a moment maybe, like where Packer fans and Eagles fans can commune and have a moment of shared satisfaction because we get Micah Parsons and you guys just get to see the Cowboys I think they get like relegated out of the league at this point.

Like who's even on the Cowboys? You got like Marty Schottenheimer's son coaching them. I guess you got Dak Prescott and CD Lamb. Good players. But I don't know. They're going to be terrible this year. And you guys will have already played them by the time this episode post. I'm assuming you guys won like 40 to 7 or something.

Well, I'm hoping it's going to be 40 to like 22 with a couple of Dak Prescott garbage time points. Because I did pick him. in the fantasy draft in which I paid the most money because I figure they got no running game. He's going to be throwing to CD Lamb and George Pickens 40 times a game of pop. I think they could be kind of like frisky in terms of just like beating some bad teams and just putting up points regardless. But I, you know, I think that this move, Jerry Jones is kind of like Donald Trump in that he governs entirely based on the last thing he saw on TV. And I don't think this trade happens if America's team didn't run a couple weeks prior and just hits at this biggest sore spot in Jerry Jones's life, which is that nobody believes it was actually him that made the Herschel Walker trade. So he's like kind of doing it.

But like with half the picks and with like a way better guy. And then he gives Duran Bland a guy you've definitely heard of four years and $92 million a week after. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful. I don't, I think any team, any serious team makes this deal. It's not as much of a rip-off as, you know, the Luca Donchich trade because in the NFL, first-round

draft picks are super valuable. And, you know, Michael Parsons is awesome, but Luca Donchich is like a guy who can make you an immediate championship contender for like the solid next decade. Are you, I was wondering if you're in any fantasy footballies, because you're definitely going to go with the Micah Parsons Project as your team name. No, I do like a pick. I haven't done fantasy sports in a long time. The thing with fantasy sports, it just like messes up my rooting interest in a lot of instances,

like where you're cheering for players and not teams, and I don't know. And also I'm just bad at updating my lineup. So I was definitely the guy in the league who forgets to update his lineup, and then everyone hates that guy because who's ever in first got like an easy win, and that ends up determining like who won the league. Like, I'm that jerk. So I took myself out of fantasy sports several years ago. Yeah, I like your theory about Jerry Jones watching America's team and being like,

oh, yeah, I used to do that back in the 90s. And I'm going to, but I, you know, I do think, I mean, with the amount of money that they're paying DAC and CD Lamb to give, you know, Michael Parsons that amount of money. and you're just probably still going to be like an eight or nine win team. Probably does make sense, like just to turn him into draft picks. And they did get Kenny Clark, who's a really good player. He's a bit older than Micah Parsons, and, you know, he may be on the down swing a little bit.

But I don't know. I love it. I love it. I'm really excited for the season. Yeah. Our guy Bill Barnwell predicted the Packers now to lose to the Chiefs in the Super Bowl. Really? Yeah.

That's just dropped today. So he thinks the chiefs are getting back? Yes, and I kind of do too. I mean, the thing is, is that I keep hearing that the Ravens and the bills are favored over the chiefs, and like they've never even won an AMC championship game. I don't know. It's hard. They're like a slasher killer.

You know, you can't assume the chiefs are ever dead or down until you've gone through like eight or nine sequels. and we're only at about six or seven sequels at this point. So there's a couple sequels at least, I think, left for the Chiefs rolling forward. Yeah, the beatings will continue until morale improves, you know. Yeah, exactly. All right, that's the end of sports cast. Let's do a fantasy album draft update. I just want to see where we stand here because my last pick,

or the pick that hadn't had a score yet, comes out today. That's Big Thief, which we're going to. to talk about here in a minute, but right now Big Thief has an 88 metacritic score, which I think is a soft score. I think that's going to come down. It's primarily the British websites or the European website, so you got the skinny in there. You got a couple other, you got like, I think, uncutter mojo there and there. I think that's going to come down a bit. But I'm looking at my team right now, because all my team now, all those records have come out. I got Clips 83, water from your eyes 81, Big Thief 88.

Again, I think that's going to probably end up at about 84. Otherwise, Alex G. 84, wet leg 84. So remarkably consistent. I've got a bunch. I'm like, who am I? Like, what's the sports analogy for this? Where everyone is good, I don't have any superstars, but everyone is good. Yeah, I'm thinking this is kind of like a 2004 Pistons sort of deal.

I was going to say that. I was going to say 2004 Pistons. Right now, Big Thief would be like Rashid Wallace, I guess, on this team. But I think it's going to come down a little bit. You still have two albums left to go. You have Wednesday that we're waiting on and Kate Laban. Both of those drop on September 26th. Otherwise, you have nourished by time, 89.

Solid. That's definitely overperformed what I thought. I thought that was going to be like, you know, kind of a sneaky thing. I thought Amore was going to get that kind of score. But she's a very, very disappointing, like kind of picking Garrett Wilson in the second round type of performance. She's got Justin Fields thrown to her this year. She's gotten 82. Well, and weirdly on my team, water from your eyes is a little disappointing.

I thought they would do better than an 81. And I feel like that score isn't really representative of how people feel. I don't know. There's something odd about that. I feel like that's got, that should be a little higher, I think. I think people like that record,

more than that score reflects. But whatever, that's the way it is. But that's a little disappointing. I thought that would be higher. And then you have Wolf Alice, who was a 66 at one point? And now has an 80?

Yeah. How is that possible? That's 14 points. This is like the DAC, Prescott throwing like 60-yard bombs to George Pickens and garbage time. This is Caleb Williams last year where he was just racking up numbers in the second half when the Bears were down like 28 to nothing. And now all these bear fans are like, oh, look at his numbers from last year.

And it's like, yeah, because they were playing prevent defense, you know, for half the game. And Wolf Alice, prevent defense, man, exploiting it here. Yeah, I mean, it's still pretty disappointing because I was expecting them to do the kind of numbers they did last time out and the one before then. But, you know, like we were talking about last, a couple weeks ago, they made their Fleetwood Mac Hymne sounding album with Greg Kirsten. And so that's, that's on me for not doing the scouting report and seeing like, you know, the congenital knee defect in this metaphor. But where I stand right now, if Beek Thief holds Wednesday and Kate LeBahn, if they average an 85, I take it by a point,

which is realistic, but, you know, I'm relying not, I think Wednesday's going to kill it. And I'm also anticipating that Big Thief might come down a bit. But we'll talk about that because I do think it's a bit of a soft number. Yeah, I mean, I think if Big Thief can hold, that matches with Nourished by Time pretty much. Yeah. And then I'm pretty good. Yeah, then you really need Wednesday and Kate Laban to come through. I think Wednesday will be mid-80s.

Kate LeBahn will see. I think Kate LeBahn will be in the 80s, but could be like an 82 possibly. I don't know. It's going to be close. It's always close in these things, which is odd to me. There haven't been really that many blowouts, but maybe this is reflective of just music critics being too nice. Like visiting our conversation from last week. Everyone's just getting like an 82, 83.

I think that one of the other things, And we've talked a little about this is that, you know, just in the past couple weeks, we've seen things like, you know, deaf tones and blood orange and Haley Williams, who has like a 97 right now. Like all these things, which were potential number one picks, but they just got announced with like three weeks of lead time. So I think we are, it's swirling that we are going to have to start doing something different to keep things interesting. Because I think the three singles, two months or three months of lead time is being phased. out. Yeah, because I'm definitely picking deaf tones.

Yeah, I think we're going to have to pick maybe two albums per month and then add it up at the end of the quarter. I think that might be the best way to do it. And then maybe there should be some way to switch out an album. Like some kind of trade situation. Yeah, like the free agent,

like the auction draft or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Haley Williams like stealth, one of the biggest critics, darlings of the last 10 years. Like something happened with that band. With Haley Williams and like Paramore, I definitely feel like there was a situation where

maybe they didn't get their props in the aughts. And then starting in the mid-2010s, it totally switched. And it was like, we're going to give you makeup calls over and over again. It's like the makeup Oscar, where we didn't give it to Al Pacino. for the godfather or Serpico, but we're going to give it to him for scent of a woman 20 years later. I feel like that's happened with Haley Williams, but it's happened several times.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely happened with Paramore. It's sort of like with deaf tones where like a generation of, you know, critics who grew up with this band all of a sudden become, you know, are able to speak on that. But I think low-key critics' favorite, I think one of the underrated parts about Haley Williams in terms of how she's perceived now is that she's like one of the people at her echelon who seems to actually like talking to music critics. She she knows how to, she knows how to play the game for sure. I find that I feel like she's, you know, better as a person with taste than someone who is able to convey those tastes and music, but whatever, I think they peaked with riot. That's just me. Yeah, I mean, I saw this morning,

someone was tweeting out a screenshot of her listening to like the latest Wednesday single. Yeah, exactly. She'll do stuff like that. Wasn't this album already released as a bunch of singles and then it got repackaged as an album? Yeah, it's kind of like the unofficial mixtape. She's doing very datpiff.com type marketing. Because it feels like the singles weren't really in the mix

in terms of people talking about it, but then it's repack. Maybe this was a chance for people to catch up and be like, wow, this is great. I'm going to go on a limb, though, and say 97, a little high. Maybe a little too high. Is it as good as fetch the bolt cutters? Time will tell. Well, let's get to Big Thief here.

We've already made a couple allusions to us saying that we think that the Metacritic score right now, which is 88, feels a little soft. And maybe that's reflective of how you and I feel about it. Because we've talked about this record a bit over the DMs. By the way, this album is called Double Infinity. it's the sixth Big Thief album. It's their first record in three years coming after Dragon New War Mountain, I believe in you,

the double record that I think is their best record. I think a lot of people think is their best record. It's certainly like one of the most celebrated Big Thief records. And ever since then, the members have been involved in various side projects.

Adrienne Linker has put out some solo records. She put out this huge live record just a few months ago that I like quite a bit. But this is Big Theefe back proper or somewhat proper. Of course, Big Thee famously a quartet. Now they're a trio. The bass player recently left the band and there were some controversy with him. Formerly being in the IDF, I guess, and he was maybe pro-Israel and I don't really want to get into that.

That's a whole other four-hour indie cast episode. that will never record. But anyway, he's out of the band. This band's a trio now. And apparently when they were in the studio, they had some trouble coming up with material. It was a bit of a, you know, kind of trying to figure out the new chemistry in the band.

And they ended up bringing in all these auxiliary musicians to help them out. There's extra percussionists. You got all these backing vocalists. You got like drone going on. You got samples. You got loops. And it's clearly a progress.

in the band sound. It doesn't sound like any other Big Thief record, which I think is admirable in a lot of ways. But if you notice the tone of my voice, I don't necessarily think it's an improvement. For me, this is easily the weakest Big Thief record, even their first record masterpiece, which came a little bit before they were this critically acclaimed band. I prefer that record to this one. I like the rawness of that record. I like sort of the rangey guitars, like the crazy horse aspect of that record. This album is really like a wash of sound. The guitars are buried in the mix.

Again, you've got a lot of percussion going on, a lot of backing vocals. And it puts this layer on the music that to me feels very gauzy. And, you know, I've listened to this record quite a bit. And while I think it's the weakest of their albums, it's by no means a disaster. I mean, I still think it's like a good record. I think it's a solid record. But, you know, I keep listening to it, and I feel like there's something missing. It's not connecting with me in the way that all the other Big Thief records did.

It doesn't feel as cathartic or as emotional. I feel like it doesn't have that one song that just knocks you on your ass that I feel like every Big Thief record has. It comes closest for me on songs like Grandmother, and there's another song called No Fleeve. fear. Actually, those songs are packaged together in the middle of the record. I think those songs are both quite strong. But I don't know. There's also all these other songs that, again, I think are solid, like Los Angeles in the first third of the record, I think is pretty good.

There's another song called Happy With You, which is very repetitive and kind of annoying, I have to say. Another song called Words, which is at the beginning of the record, feels a little like big thief by numbers to me. There's a lot of mid-tempo songs on this record. I guess they went in the studio and they jammed a lot of these songs out. And it feels like maybe they didn't quite get to the gold at the end of those jams. There's a lot of panning for gold, but not necessarily, you know, striking, you know, I'm mixing my metaphors here.

I was going to say they're striking oil, but they're looking for gold. You get, you catch my drift. Again, I think it's a good record, but it doesn't get over the finish line for me. And I do think, you know, the analogy I threw out to you, and I knew you would get this, is that I feel like this is their fading frontier. You know, and that's a reference to Deer Hunter. I think Fading Frontier was about their fifth or sixth record. It came out in the mid-2010s.

It came out after Microcastle and Halcyon Digest in Monomania, the records that I think people look as being like the prime era deer hunter albums. And then Fading Frontier comes out. And again, it's a good record. But I think when you listen to that, you can clearly hear that the band has moved on into a different phase of their career. That maybe isn't the peak anymore.

And I get that feeling listening to this album. I do think that this band has always been very reliant on the chemistry of the four band members in losing, you know, those people, even though you're adding all these other musicians, this record somehow still sounds smaller to me than the other albums that just had those four people playing on it. Does any of this make sense to you? I mean, I feel like we're probably on the same page with this. Yeah, it makes sense to me. I actually reviewed Fading Frontier for Pitchfork. I remember that. I tend to forget that

sometimes. But my memories of reviewing that album, it's like, yeah, it's pretty good. This is probably the time where we're finally not going to give Deer Hunter best new music. And like, actually, could you like bump this up a few points, uh, given an eight four? I'm like, oh, cool, I guess. You know, it's one of those records where it's good, uh, as is this one. But you get the sense that it's like them going from a list, like top 10 every album list candidate to something that's kind of comfortably siding in like, you know, the 30s or something along those lines. Um, I think that's just how I think about it within the scope of big thief in that I don't hear it doing anything totally new. It's not a huge step down, except for words, which I'm like, I can't believe

Adrian Lanker is writing a song like this. It just feels extremely basic, but it's not a step up or really a step in a new direction. It is clearly transitional. And I'm going to throw out something that I think you might understand, but I don't know if you're going to agree with. When I hear that kind of this spongy sound of the record with all the overdubs and the samples and a song like No Fear which just kind of repeats endlessly for

eight minutes. I'm thinking of no code. Is that like way off? Because there's like a certain kind of like raw, spongier band trying to figure out what they're doing with some quote unquote eclecticism coming to the mix.

This feels very no code. It's weird because they did this interview with Vulture where I feel like they were a little defensive about people describing this album as polished. Because I don't think polished is the right word for it. I think, like to me, like no code was Pearl Jam trying to like back away from the mainstream and make music that was weirder than they made before. And I don't think that's true of this album. You know, like you said spongy. To me, it has like a very liquidy sound. And it, it, it, And again, it feels like airy and a little ill-defined.

I actually disagree with you. I think this record is pretty different for Big Thief. It doesn't sound like the other albums just because of all these other elements that they're bringing in. I mean, the first five albums are just basically the band playing together, and it's much more about the interplay of the group. And they're also more rock-oriented, I think, than this album is. There is a little bit of a softness to this album. And I think at times it does drift into like adult contemporary territory.

I mean, and not just like modern adult contemporary, but I was thinking about like late 90s folk singer-songwriter type music, like Sean Colvin type stuff. Use some indigo girls in there. Yeah, which again, I'm an Indigo girls fan, so I'm not knocking it. But I mean, there's a song on the record called, I think all night all day. Yeah.

I think that's the sexy one. Yes. Which felt like a little cringy to me, that song. And I don't know. And I get happy with you, which is the penultimate track. I really don't like that song at all. It's really repetitive and just annoying. And it feels like a song that is underwritten.

And in lieu of coming up with a fully formed, You're just repeating the same elements over and over again, trying to find maybe some sort of epiphany or a climactic moment. And, you know, again, I think that them deciding to open up the band in a way, I mean, if you want to talk about like 90s rock bands responding to a band member leaving, in a way this is sort of like up by REM. Where REM decided, okay, we're not going to sound like R&M. anymore. We're going to have drum machines. We're going to have this totally different sound, really, from our bass thing that we had as a quartet. I think Up is like a much better record than this one is. But again, there are songs I like. Again, Los Angeles, I think, is a good song. I actually

like that song, No Fear. To me, that's an example of them using the loops and the drony aspects of this record in an effective way. It creates a mood that I think really works well. And then grandmother, the song after that, um, is the one that I think works the best. I think that's clearly the best song on the record and it makes sense that they released it as a single. But, um, I don't know. Going back to that Volcher interview, I thought it was really interesting because there is a subtext to that record where it almost sounds like the band members are talking to themselves about how we feel about the album right now. There's this thing in that interview where Adrian Linker talks about how, you know, I used to weigh tables for 10 years,

and I can go back to that if I feel like we're just making records for the sake of making records. Like, I want to feel like I'm invested in something important. And it just seems like something you tell yourself when you're in a band that's not falling apart, but like you've lost an important, you know, component of what you do. And now you're carrying forward and you're trying to figure out what kind of band are we now. And I don't know. Again, like, you know, Adrian Linker is such a good songwriter. And, you know, Buck Meek, I think, is a really great guitar player. And he's done a lot of cool sort of, like, arrangement and production stuff. So it's never going to be bad. But I don't know. To me, this feels like a record. You talked about the critical response. I mean,

it's getting great reviews so far. I think it may continue to just because this band has a such a great track record. But I don't know. To me, this is an obvious drop-off from the very high standard of the first five records. And it feels a little like, I don't want to say they're flailing,

but they're reaching for something new without it necessarily being better, I guess is what I would say about this album. Yeah, I do get the sense that a lot of these evolved out of jams. And oddly enough, I do like kind of the longer jammier songs as opposed to the ones that feel, you know, a little, kind of more like 90s contemporary singer-songwriter. Like I think the jams are where it's at.

I think the fact that this came out, like after three years, if Big Thief as a band were as prolific as they were earlier in their career, I think this might have been a little bit more obvious as like a transitional record bands that are prolific are allowed to make those sort of deals. You know, I think that what was the last deer hunter out? album, the one that came out in 2019, there's kind of a similar vibe to that as well where it's, you know, they came with a desire to jam rather than like the songs themselves. But, you know,

there is magic that happens when they get into the studio. I mean, you listen to a, like, a record like UFOF and like the room sound and the way they interact with each other is, you know, as much of a star of the show. Why hasn't everything already disappeared is the J-Hunter album? Yeah, I mean, I think. think there's so much going on on these tracks and I said a wash of sound earlier. It really does feel like I'm listening to, I feel like on the four piece era of Big Thief, you could hear each person and how they interacted. You almost felt like you could hear them breathing and you could hear the room. And it was such a great sense of atmosphere and there was a lot of space on those records. And to me, that was a big part of what I loved about Big Thief. In here, there's just

like a lot of stuff going on. And it feels ill-defined to me in a way that I feel like I keep trying to wrap my arms around this album and it's like just a cloud of smoke. You know, there's just something elusive about it to me that I find a little frustrating listening to it. Now, there's also a a part of me that feels like, is this going to be the album in 10 years that I say was actually like underrated, like that I didn't get in the moment and grows on me? That's the thing I'm going to put out there as a little bit of a caveat of what I've been saying for the last several minutes about this album, is that I do think this, especially if the album after it puts this in a different context. If you're right and it is a transitional

album and they end up in a really cool spot, in retrospect, this could be a more more interesting record to me than it is right now. But as it is, it just feels like this is good. It's solid, but it's clearly a step down. Yeah, I mean, it's got to be the kind of underrated one because everything else was so roundly celebrated. Well, not yet. Not yet.

I mean, if it stays at an 88, then we're going to be like, this is an overrated record. Yeah. But yeah, I think that this band's got, like, I don't think they're going to go out like Deer Hunter and just not make music, nor do I think they're kind of taken on. maybe like the National sort of seen as like a previousist generations band where they just kind of do lesser versions of themselves.

There's a lot of juice left in here, but they're in an interesting spot. That's not true of the National though. I don't think they look at as the, I think what's happened, I mean, not to get sidetrack on a national conversation, the National has like micro generations of fans. Like there's a micro generation of fans that came on board with the Taylor Swift record that Aaron Desner worked on. And that's the era where you and I drop off or maybe even a little bit before that.

But they're very interesting band and good for them that they've been able to do that. Like Big Thief to me, and this is part of an ongoing conversation we've been having for a while, are they going to be part of that generation of like 2010s bands that feel like they're part of the 2010s?

Like Japanese breakfast or... Yeah, or even like... I mean, this is really early, but, you know, some of like the Boy Genius, you know, because like the Julian Baker and Lucy Dacus records, I feel like just came and went this year. And there's other people, too, of that generation. Even like Mac DeMarco, you know,

we talked about him recently. That album felt very minor to me in a way that some of those other records did. You know, is Big Thief going to be coded as a 2010s act in the way that those 2000s bands of indie music, you know, your grizzly bears, your animal, collectives felt maybe a little two thousands coded to like younger generations. That's going to be the thing with Big Thief that that's interesting. Or are they going to do what the national did where you have like a micro generation of fans. One one audience cycles in as another one cycles out.

You know, it'll be interesting to see that. Maybe my life as a show girl has like some secret buck me contributions. Like she swapped out Aaron Desner. She's like going for the new guitar guy who produces. Well, I guess like the drummer played on a re-recording of like some red songs. Oh. So he was talking, but Taylor Swift like wasn't in the room. But he laid down some drums for it. So, you know. The big thief was Scooter Braun. Um, yeah. So I don't know. Maybe maybe that'll be there in, but we'll see. I don't know. Still a great band. A decent record. Maybe I'll change my mind in 10 years. We'll see. Um, let's get to the year-nay segment. speaking to the kids for all the TikTok and Instagram people out there.

This is something we do every week. And then we post it online. But if you don't want to go online, you can just listen to it in this podcast. This week, we're doing Slipknot. And we're doing Slipknot because the 25th anniversary edition of their self-tile record comes out today. And Ian, you wrote about it for Pitchfork. Yeah, the piece probably won't run by the time this episode goes up.

Yeah, it's a 25th anniversary edition. You can get a six LP blood spatter variant. Actually, you can't because it's sold out. In my estimation, you've got to go on Amazon, get a $4 UCD. It's got to have some scratches, you know, between the end of scissors and the hidden track. This is a hidden track album. You can not take this album out of 1999. Do not buy the LP. So let's set this up. Slipknot, yay or nay, are they new metal geniuses? Or are they? Are they new metal geniuses? Or are they? they masked buffoons. Ian Cohen, Ye or Nance Lip-Nut. I mean, they're both, absolutely. I think when I listen back to this record, as I've been doing repeatedly over the past couple of weeks,

what strikes me is just how fun it is. It is an album about being angry and not knowing why you're angry, but just taking that and having just a lot of fun with it. I do think it's very appropriate that A.J. Soprano, one of the most entitled and whiny characters

in television history, rocks a burgundy slip not windbreaker in season three um and i know it gets criticized for that but they're not trying to be traumatic you know there's no trauma behind it as there was with corn they're not trying to be artsy like deaf tones and system of a down it just goes hard for 45 straight minutes it's nine guys playing at the same time perfect gym out rip joey jordeson just an insane drummer what he does with the kick drum uh i'm it's like angry malnstein or you know edy van for stuff people listen to. Plus, I gotta give a shout to people equal shit as the one of the most incredible live videos I've ever seen. Just go check that on YouTube. I don't go too deep after

the first two records, but Foxing did cover duality, so that's pretty cool. Hard yay on the early stuff, especially because I listened to it when I was 20 and not 13, because if I listened to it when I was 13, I think my life would have gone in a very different direction. Nay on the later stuff, because they're the kind of establishment metal band that gets nominated for Grammys every time they release regards to the quality and they, you know, they win it over bands that are more deserving. So I'm going to say yay in terms of just this band's aesthetics because I'm always a fan of like the hard rock or metal band that wears a costume and has like some sort of like mask element involved in it. I mean, you got like kiss in the 70s. They pioneered this thing. You got Slipknot in the late 90s into the 2000s. You have Ghost.

They've been doing it for the last 10, 15 years. So I appreciate that there is always going to be at least one hard rock or metal band wearing a mask, wearing makeup, doing something really theatrical. So aesthetically or philosophically, I'm a yay. In terms of the music, I can't really front. I got to say nay. In the year 2000, I was listening to like badly drawn boy and Travis. I was listening to like wimpy indie rock and alternative music. I was not listening to Slipknot.

I would have probably made fun of AJ Soprano for wearing a slipnot shirt. I've changed my mind since then. But again, I can't pretend like I go deep on Slipknot or that I really even care about them one way or the other. So yay, philosophically, aesthetically, nay on the actual music. I got to say I was also listening to Badly Drawn Boy and Travis in the 2000s. You know, I'm a person of duality. I like the wimpiest stuff possible.

but also like stuff that goes hard at the gym. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? Well, we would be remiss to not mention our guy, Chris DeVille. He put out a book last week called Such Great Heights, The Complete Cultural History of the Indy Rock Explosion. And it goes from Iron Wine, Death Cat for Cudy, Phoebe Bridgers, St. Vincent.

we should do like kind of a bonus question from our listeners whether you or me gets mentioned more often in this book because we do both get quoted because a lot of our writing does end up in here and yeah if if if you're if you resonated with the part of us talking about whether bands or 2000s bands or 2010s bands if you can understand that taxonomy this book is for you for sure yeah exactly i feel like the ven diagram of people who listen to this show and people who would be interested in Chris's book are just like two circles on top of each other. So if you like this show, definitely check out Chris's book. Again, it's called Such Great Heights. Really cool read. You're going to learn something and you're going to have a good

time going down memory lane. So that's a dual recommendation corner right there. But as far as my individual one, so I did an interview with Laudisput about a month and a half. Actually just Jordan from a lot of dispute. I was able to do this because our boy Phil, Phil Cossorus, the guy who's running the show, he was like, yeah, this was my favorite band back in that era of the new wave of post-hardcore bands like Tucci Amore, Piano's Become the Teethers, Things of That Nature. And they have a new album out. It's their first since 2019 called No One Was Driving the Car. This is a band that was extremely important to a lot of people back in, let's say, the early 2010s. Very, very, you know, very, just very dedicated fan base.

They're annotating the lyrics, kind of like a car seat headrest or Titus Andronicus sort of thing. It is an acquired taste because you can find a lot of TikToks just like making fun of how this guy sings. They'll have like a guy having a breakdown, but it's like, oh, a lot of spute songs be like.

To me, it sounds like oftentimes Fugazi reading books on tape, and I say that as a compliment. But this album is very dense. It's got a great storyline. It's about, you know, living in the Midwest, the influence of the church. multi-level marketing and just environmental disaster.

It was very, it was very, very inspired by First Reformed. So there's a lot of movie references in this. And it's just a really cool example of a band that has their lane. They're staying in it. And it is not something you would listen to every day. But if this would be an album I picked for my fantasy draft because the only, the people who are going to review this album are going to give it like a nine or whatever.

This is probably going to be one of those. 95 with four review type albums. Well, I'm going to go in the complete opposite direction with my recommendation. I want to talk about a guy named Zach Top, who is a old school country guy who's a little bit different than all the other old school country guys that are out there that I've talked about on the show. I feel like a lot of guys who go into the tradition of country music, they're emulating like the outlaw stuff.

You know, that's like Sturgle Simpson or Tyler Childers. Or they're going for like a 60s honky tom vibe, like a. Merle Haggard or Buck Owens, you know, that'd be someone like Charlie Crockett. Zach Topp is basically doing like an 80s and 90s hybrid country sound. So a lot of George Strait, a lot of Alan Jackson, like a little bit of Dwight Yocum, like that kind of stuff. And you can hear it on his latest record. It's called Ain't In It for My Health.

And it's a record I've been really enjoying. The one criticism I would make of this album is that it came out at the end of August and not at the beginning of June. I feel like this album would have really benefited by just being able to enjoy it throughout the summertime. You know, I talk a lot about patio music, but this is like pontoon boat music, which is to me, like, this kind of country music

is perfect for pontoon boats. You know, at Zach Top, he's making that kind of music. I mean, he literally has a song in this record called Good Times and Tan Lines. So if that is up your alley, and you want to pretend like it's June, even as the weather is getting colder here as fall approaches, I highly recommend this album. It's called Ain't In It It's called Ain't In It for My Health. The singer and songwriter is Zach Top. And yeah, pontoon boat music. Get on that pontoon boat one more time before the lakes freeze over. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter.

You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.