Indiecast - Kanye West's 'Donda' + Guilty Pleasures

Episode Date: September 3, 2021

What’s your biggest fear as a concertgoer? For Steve, it’s having to do a Number 2 at a show — even nice venues with good toilets seem like a terrible place to spend any significant amount of time. This is perhaps the exact thought that went through the head of the person who had an unfortunate bowel movement in the mosh pit at a Turnstile show last week. Will people now feel empowered to do the same at upcoming Turnstile shows, like how Barenaked Ladies got Kraft mac and cheese thrown at them?The meat of this week’s episode comes in the form of a discussion about Donda, the oft-discussed, perhaps anticipated new album from Kanye West. The thing about Kanye is that the music media once gave him the benefit of the doubt, and now they don’t. Nonetheless, like everything Kanye does these days, Donda has this huge gravitational pull, yet it feels somewhat marooned from what’s actually happening at large, with a narrative set almost entirely on planet Kanye. There’ss callbacks to some Yeezus and 808s-style electronic music, a lot of Jesus (the curses are bleeped out!), but rather than create trends, it turns away from them. Donda just sucks all the air out of the room.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Ian is plugging Jail Socks, who just released the new album Coming Down while Steve wants to spread the good word about Other You, the latest LP from indie guitar god Steve Gunn.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to IndieCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review the new album by Kanye West. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, the original certified lover boy, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

Well, I mean, on a day where, what, like New York's underwater, Joe Rogan's telling his listeners to eat horse paste, all sorts of terrible things going on in Texas. I mean, I'm just glad that we have some feel-good stories to share with our listeners like, you know, the guy who took a shit in the turnstile mosh pit. Yeah, this has been a big story this week. And I want to get your take on this. And by the way, you know, we're really throwing our listeners into the deep end right away in this episode. I hope people are not grossed out by this. We'll talk about this important story as delicately.

as we can. But I want to get your take on this because I saw people talking about there was this guy. Yeah, this was a show in California. Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz. I believe you saw the show right before this. Yeah. Is there like a German word for like the disappointment you feel when you went to the show

the night before someone like made history by taking a shit in the turnstile pit? Well, someone might have taken the shit at your show. You just didn't know about it. It was outdoors. So it would probably be hard to tell. Yeah, it was maybe more low key. But yeah, anyway, there was the show in California and Santa Cruz, and it was this dump discovered. It wasn't in the pit.

I think it was originally in the pit and then someone threw it on stage. Is that the story? You know what? Like right now, it's just this like Roshaman like tale where people are like just telling it from many different perspectives. And the legend will far outlive the stink of whatever it was. So, I mean, we like... Oh, was that a pun? Was that a little pun there?

The stink? Yes, it will. And you know what? Like, we're going to get a guy who, like, I imagine he or she will, like, today. Like, I'm the original turnstile poover. Like, they're going to give, like, an exclusive story to Rolling Stone or whatever. Well, is this going to become a bit at shows, like, where people are like, well, I'm going to be the one here who does this? Like, I mean, that, I wonder if turnstile is going to have to put out a statement saying, please do not do this.

But here's my question. It seems like in the discourse this week, people talking about this, that there was an assumption that this was done deliberately, either out of spite or, like, as a joke. Whereas I'm inclined to believe that this was an accident. Yeah. And, you know, like, the person got in the pit. They're very excited.

You know, they love Glow on. They listened to the Indycast episode where we raved about it. They could see this band, and, like, they literally just crap themselves out of excitement. Do you think it was a deliberate act, or do you think it was an accident? So here's the thing. I mean, they're guys in like hardcore and like saying that, yeah, this is like surprisingly not that uncommon.

And also, like I remember there was an issue, I think the body issue of ESPN, the magazine, where athletes, particularly football players, talk about how common this is in a contact sport. Like, it's nowhere near. Like, people don't want to talk about it, obviously, but it happens. now like like so people are excited again and it's the thrill of of the physical contact and you

sort of lose control of your body temporarily also it's in a cruise man like people are probably like on all kinds of drugs up there that like you cause them to lose control their bowels or they're eating like you know they're like surf dudes who had a burrito and like then took a bunch of mushrooms so you got to you got to understand like the geographical context of it all So you think it was an accident and not someone, not a joker out there who was like, I'm going to do this, it'll be hilarious. Because I think it's an accident. It's got to be an accident. To me, you'd have to be a true sociopath to do that deliberately.

Because for me, the thought of taking a dump, even in a toilet at a show. Oh, yeah. Is a nightmare. I mean, that's something I have legitimately feared at various times in my life where I wasn't maybe feeling that. good and I'm like I do not want to do that at a show it just seems like a terrible place. shout to leo go little like he's our a friend of the pod he did a lot of uh he's done a lot of work about a festival outhouses uh and just have like but yeah this this taps into my greatest fear as well so yeah we've gone from like a really feel good story to you know exploring like the

deepest and darkest uh fears I have about being in public so cool we're off to a great start so far I mean, well, to flip this in a more positive direction, my equivalent of this turnstile story is that in 2010, I saw the reunion tour of Guided by Voices. It was like the classic lineup of Guided by Voices with all the mid-90s people, and all they did was play mid-90s songs. So I was at the show, it's like 39 songs, about three hours. It's a GVV show, so I'm drinking a fair amount of beer. Yeah. And it's one of those shows where you're like, all the songs are great. There are no bathroom break songs.

So I was like, I cannot go to the bathroom during the show. And again, I'm drinking all this, you know, watery domestic beer at this show. And miraculously, I did not have to go to the bathroom once during the show. So, I mean, maybe this is like the anti-turn style story, you know, just to give like an uplifting counter example that you can be at a show that you love and actually, contain your bodily functions long enough to enjoy everything. And, yeah, so hopefully, but I mean, if you got to go, you got to go. I don't want to encourage people to damage their inner organs. But I'm just saying, sometimes miracles can happen and protect you from having to go when you don't want to go.

We were going headlong into getting that Depends sponsorship. Well, but I didn't need the pens. That's the thing. But I have thought, like, maybe I should wear a diaper to this show. Because I do have a weak bladder sometimes. I'm like, it'd be nice not to have to go to the bathroom, especially if I'm having some drinks. So, you know, I don't know if there's, if there's like a hip depends that someone could market, you know?

Like a hip dad depends that didn't have the stigma of depends, but would be cooler. Yeah. Like, I just imagine a Depends commercial that, like, is taking place at, like, a fake turn style show. And, you know, this guy just, like, kind of turns and winks to his friend like, hey, man. this ain't like Santa Cruz that's right although yeah anyway maybe we should just abandon this story

we'll watch this one down the toilet so to speak well exactly if people are still listening to this episode this is this is like this has definitely been the what's the word this is like the most it's like the filthiest indie cast so far I think we've already set set that new record

another story I was really intrigued by this week was the fake Jonathan Richmond. Yes. Story where Jonathan Richmond, the beloved lead singer of the modern lovers and he's had a long solo career, a punk and indie icon. He was booked at a festival, I guess, in Olympia, Washington, but it wasn't him. It was like a fake Jonathan Richmond, which it does seem like he would be fairly easy to have a fake person.

Yeah. Like, I mean, you say, like, you know, the fake Jonathan Richmond, I'm about to make a MacDamarko joke or something like that. But, yeah, I mean, I think, we're on point today. Yeah, that's, that, like, I don't, he didn't, like, let me just be clear, like, the fake Jonathan Richmond didn't actually play the festival, right? Yeah, I think that the real Jonathan Richmond and his management alerted the festival before the fake Jonathan Richmond went on.

Like somehow the real Jonathan Richmond got wind of it And he said, hey, I'm not in Olympia, Washington. I don't know where he was in reality. But yeah, they alerted the authorities. I mean, couldn't the guy have said, I'm a Jonathan Richmond impersonator? Like, this is a tribute to Jonathan Richmond. And maybe there's some sort of loophole there.

I mean, I don't know. Like, is this guy in jail? Like, what is the punishment for impersonating? I mean, you know, I think legally it would be like, you know, fraud, but then again, when you think about, like, the fact that they didn't actually play, I mean, like, it would be really tough to get, like, you know, legitimate damages that would make a lawsuit worthwhile. But I think fraud would be it. But I think you're right in that, like, Jonathan Richmond, like, that is the perfect person to be, like, if you're going to be a scammer. it's got to be like someone who you know might like might be old to like a little too old they'll have like a like you know like a well-known agent like a c a a a or a william morris or a

you know apa type person um and you know you can come in at like a real low ball estimate like hey we're going to be in town we're routing through olympia or little rock arkansas and like i really like i'm surprised this doesn't happen more often you know and maybe like this This is, I don't know, this is maybe one of my side hustles. You know, we put this remembering got some guy's energy to use, you know, like call up a bunch of like the, our beloved, uh, you know, B market festivals and places like, you know, Lexington, Kentucky or whatever and say, like, hey, I have here we go magic or hooray for Earth or something like that.

And like, you can get them for a shockingly low price. Like, but we need a 50% deposit up front. Yeah. I mean, it could, it could be like the new. scam of the century. Maybe you say that, uh, you know, we are, uh, you know, just name any like, like mid-level, like kind of mid, mid-aughts in detail, you know, like, we're the stills. Um, and it's just like four guys in their late 40s with like nice haircuts and, and jean jackets. And, you know, maybe you could make 500 bucks playing, uh, you know,

hell yeah. Beale Street Days in Memphis or something, you know, like the, the, the, the, the, That would be like a great heist movie. Maybe you just go from festival to festival coast to coast. And then there's like Tommy Lee Jones is like tracking you down. Like every step in the way. That being said, if the stills do want to come back, I will definitely pay an exorbitant fee to come out and see you guys.

So if the stills, if you're listening, the real stills that hits. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, speaking of Indycast Hall of Fame, I'm surprised we haven't put the stills, uh, Their first record is that Only Love Can Break Your Heart? Oh my God.

Logic will break your heart. Only logic will break your heart. Is it logic will break your heart? No only. It is logic will break your heart. Logic will break your heart. My recall of album titles has been terrible on this show lately. I pride myself on knowing album.

I mean, I knew 75% of that album title, but I mixed it up with Neil Young in my head with the Neil Young song, Only Love Can Beard. break your heart and then logic well they do have a song called let's roll so maybe that and they're canadian too yeah so maybe there you go maybe that's what's happening here okay you know this may not be the last time we bring up the stills on this show i hope not i hope not either uh we're both big fans uh let's go to our mailbag segment and uh thank you all for writing into our show uh you can reach us at indecast mailbag at gmail dot com um we're

are going to do two letters today because we get so many letters, especially since we started that Twitter account. Yeah. We get way more letters now, which is great. And we also get way more Jimithy jokes. I mean, that's where we can't really do Jimithy jokes on the show anymore because it's pretty old. But the, like, the Twitter followers, they love the Jimithy jokes. They bring them up all the time.

So if you still want to hear the Jimity jokes, you're not going to hear them on the show. Go to our Twitter account. Indicast 1, and you'll hear some Jimitie jokes there, I promise. Our first letter comes from Monica in Havana, Cuba, which is amazing. We had a letter from Beirut last week. We have Havana this week. This is like an international show. Yes.

It's pretty exciting. And Monica's written a few times, and she's very sweet, said some nice things to us in her email, so glad to get her into the show here, into the mailbag. She writes, When I was in my teen years, I used to love bands like Cradle Filth, Coal Chamber, or Within Temptation. Hell yeah. Nowadays, I cannot say they are great bands, but I'm still fond of their songs.

I know nostalgia can make even bands that aren't very good seem good because you like them at one time. I'm wondering, what bands do you take? like that you know aren't very good, but you like them out of nostalgia. This is a difficult question to answer. I feel like you're probably going to come from a similar place on this because, you know, we've both been music critics for a long time, and you get that music critic brain where you, for one thing, you know, the idea of like guilty pleasures, I mean, that's been

outlawed basically in critical discourse. in like the last 10, 15 years. We're told that there's no such thing as guilty pleasures. And I feel like a record, like say, just to name an example, get born by Jet, which is a record I really love. But do I love it out of nostalgia because it reminds me of my mid-20s? Or is that actually a good record that was maybe misunderstood by critics at the time? It's really hard for me to know the answer to that.

I don't know if my music critic brain, has twisted my perception of this because honestly my feeling is that that is a good record um but i don't know like how do you feel of this i mean are you coming from a similar place yeah i mean i think if a record like jet like jets get born if if it's if critics are just like completely like pissing on it you know actually that was the next that the monkey pissing in its mouth that was the next jet album but like if critics don't like it is doing its job but uh as far as Monica, like, you know, her bands that she mentions, like Cradle of Filth, Cold Chamber, like A.J. Sopranos type music. Like, my opinion on that stuff is when we think about,

like, what's a bad band, I think we look at it and like, okay, which bands are in bad taste as opposed to, like, which bands are actually, like, you know, they don't have technical skill or whatever, because bands like Cradle or Filth are like Cold Chamber or, you know, oftentimes it's like new metal bands that are brought up. When someone is 16, and I believe this about myself, like, I think there's something just so honest about the interaction with that music. Like you were saying, there's a critic brain that comes in at a certain point where you try to like music because you think it's important or it, you know, it's in the lineage

of the right influences or it fits within the narrative. Like these things that I could not even conceptualize when I was sick. I just liked, say, ugly kid Joe or like that one Jackal song with the chainsaw, lumberjack, he goes like, yeah, this thing rips. And I can get in touch with that still. Like, I firmly believe that anyone should be far less embarrassed by the stuff they liked at 16 than the stuff they liked when they were 26, you know? I look back at like year-end lists from 2012 or 2013 that I made.

And I am just like kind of mortified that I talked myself into certain things because I thought that oh this is where music is headed like this is important right now like I got a lot of I guess we'll call it in the R&B type stuff from 2011 and 2013

on these mixes I made and it's just like I know I let myself get kind of suckered there well you know but it could be a matter of you just not being far enough removed from that yet in the same way that like maybe

you romanticized the music you like when you were 16 because that's now, you know, 25 years ago. Whereas that indie R&B stuff, it still feels relatively recent. And maybe in another 10 years, you'll look back on that and be like, oh, yeah, like, I was a kid when I was 26. And that was actually kind of, you know, it reminds me of that time, you know, maybe getting back to Monica's point that that that will be the music that you nostalgically start to like again. Because, you know, it reminds you of a time and place that now is pretty deep. distant. I mean, when I was talking about music critic brain, I mean, you were talking about music critic brain in the sense of like conceptualizing records in terms of their importance or their cultural import, which is definitely a version of music critic brain, but I feel like if you have

that kind of brain long enough, it evolves to a point where when you think about the music of the past, the stuff that was not understood or well reviewed or critically acclaimed or whatever, that becomes more interesting to think about than the records that were critically acclaimed. Absolutely. And I think that happens with music critics. Maybe it happens with like regular people too. But I mean, we were talking recently about the limp biscuit revival. I mean, to me, that's the perfect example of it of people going back and saying, well, wait a second, this is actually, this has some merit, you know, for reasons A, B, and C. Whereas, you know, someone like Moby, you know, who is, you know, who is, was taking shots at Limp Bizkit.

I mean, play, his record, was one of the most acclaimed records of 1990. That won't pass and job that year, right? Yeah, it wouldn't pass and job. I'm sure it topped a lot of other lists. And to listen to that record now, I mean, that record seems much more embarrassing in a way than maybe significant other does. And much more dated to the time. So, again, it's hard to know exactly why you are responding to something. Are you responding to it because it reminds you of a particular time and place in your life,

which would be the nostalgia aspect? Or is it some intrinsic aesthetic quality to the music that you either liked at the time or maybe you appreciated later? I mean, I tend to think that these things are all wrapped up in one package, and it's impossible really to separate your own context from the music that you're responding to. And the only thing you can really do is acknowledge that that's true. You know, I think some people like to pretend that they can separate their own lives from how they respond to something. And I don't think you can do that. Yeah.

It's a tenant of Remembersome Guy's lifestyle. Like I can appreciate anything that's that I've liked over the past 20, like 40 some odd years if like I can get into that, remember some guy's mindset. because yeah, it's like no matter how bad or how like silly, you know, my life was with the music I liked at the time was, you know, you can, it's, it's just like kind of a way of like seeing, seeing a greater context, you know, like, I know if the streets came out right now. I'm like, I would not listen to it. But at 22 and 24, like, I felt like those albums were describing my life. So when I listen to them now is clearly an attempt to reconnect with it. And, you know, it's. And, uh, an attempt to reconnect with it. And, a much drunker, much younger, much more impressionable version of myself, which I miss, you know, even if it was, you know, embarrassing in a way. Like, I don't think we should lose sight of our more embarrassing moments. Yeah. And I just find that as I get older, that I'm not embarrassed by younger versions of myself. In the same way that I was when I was maybe in my late 20s or early 30s, where I think you are at that age more interested in separating yourself from

maybe who you used to be, whereas when you get older, you want to reconnect with those old versions of yourself a little bit. Be like, oh, this is interesting. And music is a great way to do that. So hopefully we answered your question, Monica. Thank you again for writing. And I hope there's,

I don't know what our following is like in Cuba. Maybe we have a big Cuban following. That'd be amazing. You think there's like a lot of indie cast heads in Havana? Maybe. That would be fucking cool. Absolutely. Let's move on to our second question.

This comes from James in North Andover, Massachusetts. I expect North Andover to be an Indycast stronghold. That seems like a very indie cast kind of place. James writes, my question is about the idea of an album being way more interesting than the actual album itself. This is a highly specific example, but one that has stuck with me for a while.

Back in 2011, Danger Mouse collaborated with Italian composer, Daniel Lupi on Rome. Huh. Do you remember that record? I remember this record. I vaguely remember it, but, like, I mean, this is,

this is, like, a different variant of remembering some guys. This is, like, some, like, a real dead zone of guy remembering. But, you know, like,

James from North Andover, like, you're really on our wavelength right now. Oh, yeah. This is a deep cut. I appreciate him bringing this up. For people don't remember,

this was a record that it was a takeoff, on like spaghetti western soundtracks and like Jack White was on it. Nora Jones. They were the stars of it. And anyway James writes about how on paper this sounded

like a pretty cool idea for a record and then it comes out and he says, it's fine. It was good even. I liked it. I got a 7.0 on pitchfork. The only problem with it really was that it wasn't as interesting as the idea of it seemed in my head.

As connoisseurs of album rollouts and discourse. Thank you, James, by the way, for calling us connoisseurs of album rollouts, which I think we are. I think that's fair. That's fair praise. I'm not going to be falsely modest about this.

I think we're connoisseurs of that. Do you guys have any examples of this where the concept or narrative about the album made it sound way more interesting than the actual album ended up being? You know, it's funny because one album we haven't talked about that came out last week is the Halsey record.

If I can't have Love, I Want Power, which is... Oh, you get that album title, correct? Well, I wrote this one down. I mean, I had to pull the Stills album out of, like, thin air. And again, I got 75% of it, so... Yeah, okay. I'm not taking that as a total loss. I'm taking it as a partial win.

But anyway, this is the record that... It's basically Halsey backed up by 9-inch nails. and I remember hearing about this record and thinking like, oh, that sounds like a pretty cool record, like a pop singer with like Trent Resner and Atticus Ross laying down some soundscapes behind it. Seems like a cool idea. I kind of wish Billy Elish had done this or like maybe Lord.

Like either one of their recent records, I think that they would have been great with Nine Inch Nails. But anyway, the Halsey record, I didn't really get into it. I don't know, like, did you listen to that record? Yeah, it did sound like a really interesting proposition. I mean, like, you know, as a 41-year-old man interacting with pop music to say, hey, maybe this is going to sound like, you know, all those like late 90s pop records that tried to do fake 9-inch nails, but like actually you get the real deal.

I was hoping to be like a stabbing westward record. Yeah. Yeah, there are some songs. Like, there are some songs that kind of take things and more of like, like a gravity kill slash stabbing westward direction. But, yeah, otherwise I was a little disappointed on how much it sounded, you know, kind of like a contemporary pop record with like nine inch nails flavoring. I kind of wish there was just like a little dirtier or more menace.

But then again, like this is, you know, I could also just listen to a nine inch nails record if I want that. Right. Otherwise, I mean, in terms of an idea being better than execution. A for effort on that one. Yeah. A for effort on the Halsey record, but beyond that record, I would say in terms of an idea being more compelling than the execution, pretty much every supergroup ever made.

That's what immediately comes to mind. The quintessential example of this is Monsters of Folk. Do you ever monsters of folk? Do I remember Monsters of Folk, man? You know what? I don't think I actually even listened to that album, despite the fact that it could not possibly be more you know

it could not be possibly more in my wheelhouse that being said like M Ward Jim James Connor Overs the problem is it had like the record came out in 2009 when I was like

this is like a year after evil urges like M Ward kind of you know fell off for me after post war like this is not each artist at the peak of their power hours. And so, I mean, like, I don't think I listen to this one. But, I mean, can you think of any other examples of, like, an idea you got excited about

and the execution wasn't very exciting? Well, I mean, we have to think about, I think they're called Banquit, BNQT, which was like Band of Horses, Franz Ferdinand, Granddady, and Midlake. But, yeah, like, that's, like, kind of like the, I don't know, maybe I should listen to that because my expectations were so low that it can only exceed them. I don't remember that at all. That was a super group? Yeah, but I mean, it was a group from other groups and it happened and it was real.

You know, one indie super group that I think was pretty good was Divine Fits. Oh, well, yeah. But that was like an actual real band. But, you know, I feel like that was maybe the rare example where it were because you had Britt Daniel. Yeah. And was a... Dan Bockner, I believe.

Yeah, I thought Bockner. Were they the only two famous people in that? Apparently, because I can't remember it offhand. Yeah, because I remember Britt Daniel and Dan Baxter. And it sounds like a Spoon record. I mean, it sounds more like Spoon than Wolf Parade, but I remember that record being good. Yeah.

You know, but when I think about like execution, like exceeding the, or the concept exceeding execution, I'm probably going to get in trouble here because for me this is always more I always think of it more in the terms of bands that sound like a good idea rather than records that sound like a good idea

and the one that stands out to me as like this should really be right up my alley and when I I just can't get myself to enjoy it is my chemical romance particularly the black parade

God my life would be so much easier if I really liked my chemical romance. Like, it would open up a lot of opportunities, but here, like, here's this band that, you know, they come from an emo post-hardcore round. They're making a theatrical concept album similar to, like, you know, smashing pumpkins or what have you. There are enormous influence on a lot of bands I like right now, and yet, to me, it's just

like, it's not that far removed from muse to me. I just think that they influenced cooler people in their youth. I don't know. I think maybe if I were like 10 years younger, the Black Freight might be my favorite album of all time. But even as someone who, I guess, skews a bit younger in their taste, it just never, never, never quite. I just don't think the songs are really there.

See, I like that band. And I like that record, too. And the musiness of it isn't a detractor for me. because I like, if you're going to go theatrical, I like bands that go big in like the queen muse vein. You would think I did too, but it's like, damn. So I appreciate that about them. And I kind of like to see more bands actually do that.

I mean, I like it when bands go really big like that and over the top. And there's a few bands that I feel like if I were whispering in their ear, I would like maybe push them to go in that direction a little more. Glass Beach covered the black parade. So, you know, they're definitely on that wavelength. I like that band. I'm going to defend my chemical romance. I guess this is going like against the grain of our show.

But like I'll defend the emo like Touchstone Band. And you, I guess we'll express some ambivalence about them. I guess that's our stance. Probably going to get quite a few, you know, quite a few letters about that one. Well, just so on the record, Steve. likes my chemical romance Ian is ambivalent. So just so we know, I think some people mix up our voices

sometimes. So I just wanted to be clear where we each stand on that. Let's get to the meat of our episode. We're talking about one of the meatiest albums of the year. The 10th album by Kanye West, Danda, 27 tracks, 110 minutes.

Is that still the case? I know they're trying to change it from I know they're trying to change it. Okay, well, for now, we'll just say that. Yeah, I'm a fix. I'm a fix indie cast. As of Thursday morning on September 2nd, it's 27 songs at 110 minutes. It's funny that you bring that up to because this highlights an aspect of this record that I want to talk about, which is, is this actually an album?

That was something I was thinking about as I was listening to it, because quite frankly, you know, I'm prepared to talk about. this album, but I am not prepared to review it in the sense of rendering judgment on it. Because A, I think, I mean, there's just way too much data on this record to fully absorb it after only about six days or so. But also, because listening to it, it didn't feel like listening to an album. You know, it's set up at the beginning of the record to be, in a way, like this concept album about Kanye and his mother and his feelings about her and the relationship that they had. And it occasionally goes back to that, but it also goes all over the place. I mean, obviously, Kanye has many neuroses that he has to plum.

He talks about, you know, the prison state on this record. You know, there's like Marilyn Manson is coming in at some point. I mean, there's just got a lot going on. And it just doesn't have the coherence. And even like the conceptual thought that you associate with records, it really does seem like a data dump to me. So that's why it's hard for me to think about it in a way as an album. Yeah. And I think the corneous people that you will see on Twitter will agree with you that it's not now.

They might say, you know, this is a movie. This is an experience. Well, it's not a movie either. I know. Again, I think it's a data dump. Yeah. It's like, I've got all this stuff. some of it I think is actually

like pretty great. I think that like if you took you know the best you know 10 songs and just put it out as like a stripped down Jesus type record it would be like a like a pretty like strong late period

Kanye West record but instead we just have it's like someone instead of handing you a book they just like handed you all their notes that they took for the book and you know it's up to you to put it together. You know, so that's why I'm just like, listening to it, I have trouble, I guess,

thinking of it as an album rather than just like a bunch of music that he's just put out. And like, we have to try to make sense of it. Yeah. And I think that's, that's kind of where the, the apologists come in or just like the extreme Kanye stands where it's like, no, you don't understand. He's completely breaking convention with this data dump. And, you know, it's not because he lacks a sort of, uh, coherent viewpoint to unify this record. It's because we're just too limited. We're not on his

level to understand the, you know, the artistry that's going on here. Well, you said like the corneous people are making that argument. But like, wasn't that the argument made about Pablo? Yeah, life of Pablo. I feel like this has been Kanye's modus operandi for the last five years. And the nice thing about yay, you know, that record that came on 2018. And Jesus is King. those are both like short records. Right. You know, so you could get through those in like a half hour. And even if they weren't that strong, they did feel like, well, okay, I get this as an album.

I understand what this is. But this record, Donda, it just seems like the natural sort of logical endpoint of what started with the life of Pablo, where at that time, critics were very forgiving of him. Oh, yeah. and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, which they're not now. You know, critics will not give him the benefit of the doubt. And I don't know, like, what the right answer is. I feel like, I feel like there were too many excuses made for the life of Pablo,

which is, to me, a record that at the time just sounded very unfocused and unfinished. And like a guy who ran out of time to write his turn paper and then just had to turn in whatever it is he had. had. And that's what that record seemed like it to me. But Donda just takes that and multiplies it two or three times. Yeah. And like Life of Pablo also had like some good songs on it. Like songs that like you can immediately identify. Like I look, I do not like chance the rapper at all, but I understand the impact of ultralight beam. Like real friends, for example, is another one. The fake Jumpman song on Life of Pablo. Like that to me like also. Also, So I just now remember the fact that Kanye really lit up pitchfork for only giving that album in 9.0.

It was just so funny to like see Jason Green, the guy who wrote the review, just like be the target of Kanye West for a day. I mean, you don't think there's any good songs on Donda? There's some good songs on Donda, but I think, okay, I don't know if there are good songs so much as songs that like, Oh, this here is an actual song. Like, I can see this as being, you know, something. Like, I enjoy this more than the bad songs. I mean, like, Jesus Lord Hurricane Off the Grid. These are definitely songs on the album.

Believe what I say. I mean, I think those are good songs. Not, like, his best songs. But, again, I think if you take those four tracks, add another five or six. I think you'd have, like, a pretty good kind of. West record. Yeah, you totally could. I think there's some good songs on here.

It's just that you don't get the sense. And again, I don't think that this starts with this record. I think it's the last five years of his career, that he really has any sense of what he wants to do on his records, like in a coherent kind of way. I mean, really, you could say that was true of Yeezus and that, like, Rick Rubin helped bail him out at the end and pull that record together.

Because to me, that record is like his last great record. Oh, yeah. And ever since then, it's been a very confused period for him. It should be noted, though, that Kanye West in 2021 is still extraordinarily popular. Oh, yeah. And he's popular in a way that I don't think, certainly the music press. I feel like something happened in the music press that like when Kanye went Maga, that they decided that this guy,

guy, we don't like this guy anymore, and that means he's going to fade away and he's irrelevant. Nope. And that didn't happen. Like, this is a huge streaming hit. He's able to fill arenas and stadiums with listening parties, like not even concerts, just listening parties. And I don't know, I feel like critics in their own minds canceled Kanye, but like he wasn't really canceled. No. Do you want to know what?

Do you want to know what the most popular song on streaming is for this album at this moment? And it's by like... Is it the jail song? The first jail? I'm looking at Spotify right now. Yeah, it is... Oh, it's... Okay, there must be some sort of discrepancy because it's jail part two and jail,

the original jail have the same amount of streams. But yeah, and jail part two, that's the one with the baby on it. Like, so, I mean, that, like, kind of... gives you the impression that is that the son that Marilyn Manson co-wrote? Yeah, I believe that's the one with DeBaby and Marilyn Manson on it. Or Brian Warner, as he's credited

as. Yeah, so there it is. But you're right. I think the fascinating thing about this album as a cultural event is, I think about Kanye's career kind of similarly to say Prince in that for the eight, like throughout the entire

80s, like from dirty mind to, you know, let's say around the world in a day or whatever. Prince, everything this person did was a critical smash, it was a pop hit, it really just shifted the culture from the inside. And then slowly but surely you get into the crystal ball era where he's like releasing triple discs and like jazz excursions. And you know, you kind of have to just like, you know,

like white knuckle your way through it in the hopes that maybe he'll get his shit together. But like Kanye is doing that, but also like still. being every bit as popular, like arguably more popular than he was on Life of Pablo. Yeah, that's the thing about the prince analogy is that by the time he was making Crystal Ball, his relevance as a pop phenomenon had faded dramatically. He wasn't having hits anymore. And Kanye doesn't really have hits anymore either, but he, you can't deny how he is still

like one of the most famous people in pop music. I mean, he might be the most famous still. And I'll say that even on this record, it's a mess, it's unfocused, all the things you want to say about it. Although, again, I'm holding out a little bit because I do think, I mean, this is the kind of record that you need a bookmark for when you're listening to it. Because you cannot listen to it in one sitting. You know, I haven't been through it as many times as I would like to be if I was actually reviewing this record. Because I only have so many hours in my day. And the bad parts of this record are super tedious, too.

I mean, it's not, there are long records that I enjoy listening to because I think there's a lot of great music on it, and this is not one of those albums. But his ability to still stay at the center in a lot of ways of pop culture, I think at this point in his career, I mean, it's still like a pretty extraordinary run that he's had, even in this weird period where he's putting out all these records that have not been well received critically and don't seem very good, he still has his defenders and still people that want to hear what he has to say.

Do you think people were like, I don't know, like expectations were exceeded on Donda? I feel like they were. Yeah. I feel like the vibe I'm getting. Even if you look at some of the reviews, I know like Rolling Stone gave it two stuff. stars. Shout to Paul Thompson, by the way. That was a, like, that guy, he's just one of the best rap writers, and he did his homework.

Like, I liked, I liked his review quite a bit. I thought it was really interesting. But, you know, the fact that this got a 6.0 from Pitchfork, that seems like kind of high for this record. Like, you know, just could be easily. Are you going to take it? Are you going to take it there? Well, I mean, don't you think, though? I mean, I'm a, and I don't.

think it's like an inaccurate score or anything. I'm just, like, going into this album, I could have easily seen this getting like a 2.0, you know, super long record. You know, you got Marilyn Manson on there, you got DeBaby, you know, Kanye has his own baggage. It seemed like people had the knives sharpened, you know, to take them out. And it hasn't been out and out condemned, again, because I think that there is, like, a fair amount of, like, strong, Kanye West music on this record. It's just that he makes you dig through a lot

of mediocre music to get there. And he's presenting it in a package that, again, to me, seems ill-considered. You don't get the sense of intentionality on this record. You get the sense of a guy who's just got a lot of stuff and he doesn't know what to do with it.

Also, I think there's like kind of a genius bit of sequencing, where on the, like, you know, the first song, the first proper song on the record jail, like, it, it, it just has, like, the single worst JZ verse I've, like, maybe ever heard in my entire life. And, you know, once you get past that, like, it just ratchets the expectations down so low that Kanye can't help but exceed it from there on out. So, you know, like, good for, good for, like, doing Kanye a solid right there. Well, and this is the thing, you know, we talked about music critic brain. Earlier in this episode, and Kanye definitely has been the benefactor.

Oh, my God, yeah. He's benefited from music critic brain in the past. We talked about the life of Pablo discourse at the time, like how people were, they had such, you know, there was so much goodwill for Kanye at that time that people were willing to look at that record and say that he's reimagining what an album can be with this record. And you can make a similar argument with Donda. And, you know, you were just talking about, like, well, in a way, maybe you could say that the sequencing of this, with this terrible JZ verse, it, like, sets you up to appreciate the rest of the record.

You could also make the argument that, like, maybe just don't put that verse on the record. You know, maybe don't release this song. Maybe don't release, like, you know, 18 of these songs. Like, leave them in the hopper and put out your good stuff. And maybe he's not doing that because he doesn't know what the good stuff is. I mean, it just doesn't need to. I mean, you got, I don't remember, I can't imagine what a normal day for this person would be, you know, like, when was the last time this person had like a normal human experience? Like, 1994, maybe?

You know, I don't know, like, when he entered the orbit of, you know, like, Jay-Z and all that stuff. I feel like that's probably by, like, by the mid-90s that he was, or I'm sorry, like, late-90s. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like after, you know, you. Yeah, I just think like at this point, like it, he's not even someone, like, he's not even like someone who's within the center of pop culture so much as like on planet Kanye. Like you can like it all like it's interacting with trends, but it's like kind of pulling them inward rather than like the way graduation with like it's that punk samples and like, you know, European cout like influence the culture from the inside out. same with 808. It's just like this spectacle that almost seems to be happening independent of everything else that's going on in music. I think it's fair to say, and I thought this was too long before this album, but Kanye West is classic rock.

Like he is Pink Floyd. He is The Beatles. He's one of those artists that gets passed down from one generation to the next that people look to as, I'm going to get into this guy because it's like a write-up passage to listen to this guy's music. In the same way that it is for those other acts that like you get to a certain age and you're like, you know, I'm going to smoke weed and listen to Dark Side of the Moon. Like that's where I'm at. And I think Kanye is at that same. He's reached that for like a different group of people. I mean, I think that's clearly a case for him. And, you know, in terms of like the early 21st century, he still does seem like the most important. artist that's like worked in popular music. I mean, is that hyperbolic? No, not at all. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to think of like someone that would rival him in that regard. There's like a lot of other big stars, but I don't know. Kanye seems singular to me. And you can say and

acknowledging that doesn't mean excusing like all the stupid things he said or done in his life. I mean, you can still think he's obnoxious, but I don't think you could take that away from him, like his importance and influence that he's had in the last, you know, 15 or so years. Do you think that it's possible that he does make like a, I don't know, like in the way like Bob Dylan had his wilderness period, and the way Neil Young had his wilderness period, Joni Mitchell had her wilderness period, that like he comes back and he actually makes something that could stand.

because people are saying, like, apparently there are some people saying this is his best record ever. Who's saying that? You know, when I read Tom Bryan's review of this album at Stereo Gum, like he linked to people, like, it's people who aren't critics and they aren't, they're just like kind of more like sort of cultural commentators like, you know, got like punched from TDE or whatever. Or at the very least, like, oh, it's his best since. I don't even know, like 808s or whatever. Well, people who say, like, it's his best since life of Pablo. I mean, that's the funniest. Yeah, it's like, wow.

It's a real high bar. King and, yeah, like, it's better than those records, like, his two worst albums. Yeah. That's not a, it's not a nothing accomplishment, but nonetheless, it's like, wow, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, it's, it's, it's REM's best since automatic for the people or, like, you two's best since Octong Baby. I mean, like, it just kind of shows, like, kind of what I was looking to before. I think there is a weird tendency to want to root for him to be great to, like, almost make all the bullshit we put up worth it. I think he could definitely make another great record. Because, again, I think that there's good moments on this album.

Yeah. That if it just had more focus and he was able to cut away a lot of the mediocrity around it, you know, like the good parts would shine more, and I think it would really hold together as a record. I mean, I hate to, you know, give the most basic suggestion here,

but like put him in a room with Rick Rubin. Make another 10th song album. You know, I think he could do that with someone like Rubin and make a really good record. Jack Antonoff and Travis Barker. Like,

that's, we need Jack Antonoff to make his kind of a record. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, well, we're just going to go, like,

we're going to reverse the opposite day that happened with the My Chemical Romance split, and I'm going to talk about Emo now. So the first, the album I want to recommend today, it's a band called Jail Sox, very fifth wave emo type band name. There is Charlotte band coming off some well-received EPs from the past couple years.

If you were on a quarantine emo night, you heard Poplar Avenue. They have a new album coming out. today called Coming Down on Counterintuitive Records, a real fixture in Fifth Way VMO discussion. And it hits a very specific pleasure center, but one that doesn't get hit a lot. You see, you have bands that like kind of do the more formalist pop punk thing, like, you know, early taking back Sunday, early brand new, like early movie life. And you have bands that like are pretty purely emo. But it's rare that a band kind of unifies those things into hitting a sort of.

spot like say bleed American or the jealous sound like alongside the stills like the jealous sound is a very indecast hall of fame uh candidate um that's what jail socks are doing on this record it's very straightforward very catchy um kind of emo kind of pop punk a little bit of indie in there just enough to the point where you can see people who you know like oh so oh so getting into it alongside side another band who I'm excited about in 2021, 22, a band called Anxious. They released a new song recently. We're starting to see more of a gym blossoms, like a full-on Jim Blossoms influence on emo and pop punk band.

So, I mean, if that means anything to you, Jail Sox coming down, this is a record you should check out on the strength. I'll tell you what, if you've listened to our Donda discussion, this album is far shorter and asked far less. So check that one out. Jim Blossom's revival, because I talked about them in the context of the Alien Boy record that I'm a big fan of. Just the kind of jangly guitars and really poppy choruses.

Love to see New Miserable Experience become a touchstone for a generation of bands. Hopefully that can continue. Yeah, who would have thought an album called New Miserable Experience would be a formative influence on new brand of emo bands? So the record I'm going to talk about is one of the most loved albums in the indie jam sphere that have come out this year. It is, dare I say, what the turnstile record is to punk and hardcore Twitter. This album is to indie jam Twitter. It's called Other You.

It's by Steve Gunn. Steve Gunn is a great guitar player from Philadelphia. It's put out a bunch of records that I really love a lot. This is a record I had to warm up to a lot because Steve Gunn, Steve Gunn's been doing this thing on his last couple solo records where he's been moving in more into like a singer-songwriter vein and less about instrumental guitar and guitar solos, like what he would, what he did a lot in the early part of his career. And it's not a direction that I've like really loved from him. Like he put out a record in 2016 called Eyes on the Lines. That's one of my favorite albums of the last five years.

And basically on that record, it's Steve Gunn and this other great guitar player named James Elkington just playing dual. guitar, and it's like the midpoint between the Grateful Dead and television, you know, Marquis Moon. Just a perfect guitar rock sound, such a great record. He's moved away from that a little bit, again, in more of a singer-songwriter direction. But on Other You, he really is able, I think, to fuse some of the guitar jamminess of his early stuff with the singer-songwriter moves of his more recent work. So you have these really lovely contemplative songs that have, like, just mind-bendingly awesome atmospheric guitar parts that come out of nowhere. There's a song on there called Protection.

That's been one of my favorite songs of the past, the weaker or so that I've been listening to a lot. And I would definitely recommend that song in particular as an entry point into the album. But the whole album, I think, after not feeling it for a while, it's really kind of warmed up for me in the past week. So I would recommend checking that out if you are in the indie jam. end of the spectrum for indie cast listeners. Again, it's called Other You.

It's by Steve Gunn. So go check that out. We've now reached the end of our episodes. So thank you again for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter.

You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.