Indiecast - Kendrick Lamar, Plus: Harry Styles And Billboard Music Awards ‘Uncanceling The Canceled’

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

As one of the biggest yet most elusive rappers of our time, Kendrick Lamar dominates pop culture whenever he releases new music. But did his latest album Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers live up to the hype? On this week's Indiecast, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen share their thoughts on the undeniably fascinating album (31:26) and wonder if the rapper's name alone will secure him a spot on Album Of The Year lists.In terms of music news this week, Indiecast discusses the other much-anticipated album this week: Harry Styles' Harry's House (3:58). Steven and Ian also talk about the Billboard Music Awards' attempt to "uncancel the canceled" musicians (17:47) and a contentious article that examined Taylor Hawkins' final days (10:18).In the Recommendation Corner (46:59), Ian gives a shout-out to Gospel, a hardcore NYC band who just dropped their first album in 17 years. Meanwhile, Steven recommends listeners to check out the South Korean indie rockers Say Sue Me, whose new album The Last Thing Left sounds like a mix of Mazzy Star and Pavement.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 89 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review the new album by Kendrick Lamar. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, the big stepper to my Mr. Morrell, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

You know, I like the joke you made a few days ago about prepping in one-week anniversary piece for the new Kendrick Lamar album, because, I mean, like it, you know, like most of the things we talk about on this show, it has come to pass. I feel like the cycle of hype for this joint has spun our, like, twice in the past five days alone. Like, I think we, like, actually should re-review Kendrick Lamar's album every single week, you know, because right now I think it's in that kind of valley of, you know, there, it was, it had like a perfect score on Metacritic over the weekend after like 10 reviews. And now people are starting to kind of like, fight.

back against that. There have been some lukewarm, the positive reviews and now maybe people thinking it's under appreciated. So who knows where the big dial is going to land by next week? Yeah, you know, part of the discourse about this album, along with just talking about the music

itself, was people saying that you can't review this album after only a day or two of listening to it. I think Stereogum had a review up the day it came out. From what I could tell Tom Brian, woke up at 5 o'clock in the morning

and like listen to the album for like 10 straight hours and then published. Like I'm not even kidding. You know, there's people rebelling against that idea, especially in the case of someone like Kendrick Lamar, who, and we'll get to this later on our episode, there is not an artist on the planet that people take more seriously than Kendrick Lamar.

No. And it's interesting how that has bled into his actual music because on this album, there's a palpable anxiety on Kenrick. Hendricks part about how seriously people take him. And in some respect, I feel like he's completely gotten lost in his own head at this point, which can be an interesting thing for an artist and also obviously detrimental. But I just have to say, obviously it'd be ideal if the album like this comes out that you could spend a week or two listening to it and then publishing reviews. But

to quote Hyman Roth in The Godfather Part 2, this is the business we've chosen. You know, people want to read about a record when it comes out. And if you wait too long to put out a review, people don't read it. Yeah. And the thing about a review is that it's not court testimony. Yeah. You know, you're not testifying before Congress. If you give an opinion that six months later you don't agree with, no one's going to

prosecute you, uh, or prosecute you for perjury, you know, uh, we're calling balls and strikes here. Yeah. You know, in the moment, things don't always. pan out the way that they're going to maybe ultimately be talked about. So, you know, history will change no matter what, even if you waited a week or two. Yeah. Those reviews you might regret as well. So, you know, it's just the way it is. It's the business we've chosen. And, you know, like, I like the idea of music critic perjury. It's like, is it true, Mr. Cohen, that you gave Darkside

psychic a 9.0 or whatever, you know. But I just like that idea of like, having to be held in the account for like, you know, completely objective things. But I mean, what I wonder about this album is how, and this often does happen because, you know, the narrative is all-consuming, is that Kendrick being so challenging and confrontational is going to lead into how people view the Harry Stiles album. I know this, like, I know this is like Galaxy Brain 40 terminally online brainworms ship, but like I wouldn't say it if there wasn't some truth in it because, I mean, that was kind of the

crux of your argument against the new Harry Styles album, which does come out on Friday. We will not hash out that album in depth, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, you haven't heard the album, you probably will never hear the album. Yeah. If you have anything to do with it unless you're, yeah,

like at a CBS or Walgreens and they're playing deep cuts from this record. Yeah, the new Harry Styles record is out today, Harry's House. And in your Galaxy Brain Theory, here, are you saying that Harry's house will be hurt or helped? I say, I say help because like the sort of people who praise Harry Styles is like, you know, what, like the prime example of like what a male pop star should be in 2022.

We'll look at, you know, Kendrick Lamar's views about, you know, sexuality and gender and, you know, trans people or whatever. And like, Harry Styles made all the right mood. moves on that front. Like he is being held up as like the epitomization of like what we were hoping to get from, you know, a dominant male pop star, which I think you talk about your review as well.

It's like he plays the role. It's like he, he is fully embodying that role. Yeah, he is, uh, his job basically is to be the perfect boyfriend, the perfect friend,

the, you know, the perfect sensitive male ally, who like doesn't have any, untoward or selfish impulses always says the right thing. He's going to be buying you flowers. He's going to be complimenting you on your yoga,

how it's keeping you fit. Yeah, I mean, I could see it going that way. I could also see people listen to the Kendrick Lamar record and being like, this is a difficult record. I don't know if it's fully successful. But at least it has an artistic ambition to it that makes a record like Harry's House look completely bland. I mean, I think Harry's house looks bland anyway.

I mean, I wrote this review. I thought it was funny because my review was pretty harsh. The headline was Harry Styles is a really nice guy who makes boring music, which I think sums him up perfectly. And immediately, all my replies were RIP your mentions, the stands are coming after you today. And I have to say that most of the replies I got were people saying that. I didn't get a ton of negative fan response. I think his fan base, at least based on the reaction to this review, is like pretty cool. You know, they don't seem like they're out to get people, which I guess is the nice part of Harry Styles is treat people with kindness, credo.

And again, he seems like a really nice guy and all that. I just, I do find it funny how he's discussed sometimes because he wears dresses on stage. Yeah. Like he's like this transgressive paradigm shifter. when you listen to his records, I really feel like they're indiscernible from like what Ed Shearin does. Yeah.

You know, if anything, you know, look, you can take shots at Ed Shearin. I think he's a good pop songwriter. You know, he knows what he's doing. He's written songs that aren't my personal taste, but I can recognize the craft in them. I would say that he's a better craftsman than Harry Styles. But he looks like Ed Shearant.

Yeah. So he doesn't get the kind of attention. from the media that Harry Stiles gets. It just seems out of whack with what his actual music is. I think his persona in his music, it doesn't line up. Yeah, I mean, with Harry Stiles, it's like, you know, he's an objectively beautiful man who wears an occasional dress, and he's dating Olivia Wild, right, or something like that. And, you know, it's...

Head lasso's a strange wife. And so, like, I love how people are like, yes, like, for all of these things, this is exactly like Prince or David Bowie to me. I mean, I actually watch, as I'm... as I tend to do Smashing Pumpkins videos from, like,

the Adora era. And, like, Billy Corgan was, like, you know, like his style at that time, to me, seems far more transgressive as to, like, what, you know,

traditional ideas of, like, male rock star should be. And I think Ed Shearing kind of does his well, because, I mean, you know, he's out there with, like, his tattoos and his red hair

and just kind of looks like a dude from Lord of the Rings. I mean, like, a guy like that singing a song like, shape of you. You know, I think you touched on like why it's received, but in some circles so negatively, it's because, you know, you have to think about Ed Shear and naked. And he's just, he is an untraditionally, he has an untraditional look for a rock star. He just plays the part of like

the geeky pop star, like so well, you know, and it's such an easy target to take shots at. You know, you mentioned smashing pumpkins. Can I just give a shout out to James Iha in the today video. Oh, yeah. Who looks amazing in a dress. Yeah. He looks amazing. James is a very beautiful man as well.

He's a very beautiful man. Still. He's a beauty. Any kind of, any kind of gender or non-binary, whatever kind of identity that he would have, he would be beautiful. James I. He looks amazing in a dress in there. So, anyway, I just think it's, again, I keep saying, I think it's funny, but I do think

it's funny that he gets all this praise for something. that straight white males have done for like a half a century. Yeah. You know, wearing dresses, I don't know. Pop-optimus thirst, man. It's rough out there. You know, one thing I will say in Harry Stiles' defense is that the first single that he released from this record had people talking up like the drums or like Bombay bicycle club. And you know what? Like, if that can't win me over, I'm not sure what will. I mean, to me, it just sounds like his version of Blending Lights, like the weekend song.

Yeah. You know, to me it has a similar vibe to that. And I think Blinding Lights is a better song, although as it was, is like by far the best song on that record, I'll say. I think it's a pretty catchy song. So Harry Stiles does not have the full-throated indie cast endorsement. You know, we'll see how this plays out in his career. So do we want to talk about that Rolling Stone, Taylor Hawkins story?

Yeah. That came out this week. Yeah. Because Rolling Stone, they read a story. It was called The Final Days of Taylor Hawkins. and it doubles as a tribute to Taylor Hawkins. There's a lot of people talking about him in the story and what a nice guy he is.

But the other part of the story is speculating, or I don't know if that's the right word, but it's talking about how he died, essentially. And, you know, most of the talk after his death was talking, it was alluding to drugs being in his system. There's still not a cause of death that's been given officially for him, but it was suggested that it was drug-related. And in the Rolling Stone piece, people like Matt Cameron of Pearl Jam and Chad Smith of the Red Out Chilli Peppers,

both of whom were close friends with Taylor Hawkins. They say that Taylor Hawkins, in the months before his death, was talking about feeling tired. Apparently he had an enlarged heart. Yeah. So there was some sort of heart condition going on. And just him talking about how difficult it is to be in your 50s and to play three-hour shows and play these high-energy foo-fighter songs. And I think a lot of people read that story and felt that because even though the story doesn't do this explicitly, it seems like it's, you know, I don't know if blame is the right word, but certainly pointing in the direction of the foo fighters. Yeah.

And whether, you know, they didn't listen to him. Because apparently, like, Grohl and, uh, uh, Hawkins had like a talk about this. And again, this is according to Cameron and Smith. We should say to that Cameron and Smith came out later and they said that they, that their quotes were taken out of context and that they didn't, they regretted being part of this story. Yeah, we, we said stuff and then it was shaped into a narrative, which is like totally not what we expected of, uh, you know, music journalism. Like, how dare that?

I mean, like... Yeah. Well, and I saw people talking about this. They're saying, oh, Cameron and Smith were saying they were misquoted. And they didn't say that. No. They did not... This is what they...

It's what they say, like in all the president's men, the famous, the non-denial denial. I mean, that's what these statements were. It wasn't saying, I never said this. You know, they're making this up. It is, I didn't know that the story would come out this way. Yeah. Which? So, it's hard to know what to think in the wake of that.

I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on this? Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know, maybe in general people, like people are obviously shocked and saddened. I mean, we've talked about this in previous episodes, how the outpouring of emotion for Taylor Hawkins. And, you know, it's a tragedy. And also, I think that people in their grief are trying to find some sort of target. And, you know, perhaps maybe find a crack in the veneer of Dave Grohl or Fu Fighters, inks. you know, public-facing persona.

And you know what? Like, for me, like, what happened here probably is that, you know, and I want to just give a shout out to, like, rolling, the people at Rolling Stone who put this together. I mean, like, when people talk about, like, music journalism, like this, to me is music journalism. Too often people are like, you know, the music journalism field is dying and it's like, oh, a couple,

like they'll talk about, like, doing the capsule reviews. But, you know, they have the ability to get Matt Cameron and Chad Smith on the record and do all this research and vet it. And I imagine someone's manager talked to someone's lawyer or someone's lawyer or talked to someone's manager. And, you know, they just didn't want to like open themselves up to liability. And, you know, I think that the denial of this, I don't know if it makes things seem a little more, you know, a little more sketchy. But, you know, look, at the end of the day, they had a talk. and anyone who goes on tour

will probably have a conversation. It's like, man, I don't know if I can do this. You know, it sucks to go on tour. Physically, mentally, emotionally. Most people will say that. And, you know, this doesn't, to me, strike as being similar to, like, what you see in college football where, like, this 18-year-old offensive lineman

is practicing, like, two a days in 100-degree heat. And, you know, like, they're doing it, like, with these voluntary, quote, unquote, mandatory practices. It just seems to me like a fucking horrible tragedy, and, you know, we're just trying to find someone to blame for it. Yeah, that's my thought as well here. I feel like this is especially like a social media, I think, phenomenon. Whenever something like this gets put into the meat grinder of conversation,

that people immediately just want to put it into a binary situation where, oh, Taylor Hawkins was maybe, maybe he had health problems and like, they made him to her, and it's their fault that this happened. And that wasn't my take from reading the story. I think that there's a lot of, you know, it's real life, it's complicated, it's nuanced. You know, like you said, it's a horrible tragedy. This, you know, he was 50 years old, you know, he was so full of life. It's such a shame that it ended up this way.

I mean, it's nobody's fault. You know, like Taylor Hawkins, he made a decision that he was going to go on the road. You know, if he didn't want to go on the road, he could have made that decision to not do it, you know. But he did, and I'm sure there was no way to foresee something like this happening. You know, it's like how many tours have they done? How many shows have they played? You would never think that a guy that young would perish like this.

So to me, like I appreciated the story because I think it just gives some more nuance to it. Again, you know, people were talking about this in the context. of drugs. Yeah. You know, his passing. And to me, this gives a little bit more background that, okay, well, maybe it wasn't that simple. You know, maybe there were other factors coming into play.

And, you know, and again, I do think that the story does do a good job of paying tribute to him. Yes. And just talking about the kind of reach that he had. And that got overshadowed, I think, a little bit by the conversation about, you know, sort of like what happened to him at the end of his life. But, yeah, again, shout out to the Rolling Stone people. I think they did a good job with the piece.

And, you know, when famous people say I was taken out of context and they throw journalists under the bus with that, you know, I guess I have some sympathy for the journalists on that side because I'm closer to that. Although, I mean, I understand, you know, the regret probably that Cameron and Smith had when they read that story. I can see their perspective, too. I mean, I was really surprised that they went on the record. Yeah, seriously. I said what they said. Yeah. That, I mean, and that just kind of shows you why it's so hard to get actual people, like, you know, to speak on the record and stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what context there would be to change the nature of those quotes. You know what I mean? Like, what's the, I mean, they're pretty tough quotes. And there's, they're also in the story talking about how much they loved him and, and what a great guy was. So it wasn't, it wasn't just them talking about that. But anyway. Yeah. Before we get to our mailbag, should we talk about this Billboard Music Awards?

I didn't watch this. Nor did I. It's the Billboard Music Awards, but this sounds like the weirdest award show angle that I've heard of in a long time. Like Did he, I guess he was the executive producer. Was he also the host? Yeah, he was the host and executive producer. Now, mind you, we are just going off the news stories that really. written about the Billboard Music Awards.

This is like second hand. This is second hand material right here. Yeah, because it's like Billboard Music Awards. And this is like the bottom of the barrel for musical. I mean, they basically just hand a trophy to anyone that shows up. Yeah. And it's honoring, it's just like pure popularity this show. Yeah.

They don't even like, there's not even an ounce of like artistic merit that goes into picking the winners of this. But the theme this year was uncancelling the canceling the. canceled. I don't know if this was the theme, but it was like definitely the only part that people would mention after the fact. So like, but like Diddy literally said that, right? Can you say like, we're going to uncancel the canceled? Yes. Um, what, and I'm going to quote here, one of the things I'm doing, and I'm sure Diddy's people will tell us that, you know, his quotes have been taken out of context. Um, one of the things I'm doing directly is uncancelling the canceled.

That's breaking news because people haven't been about uncancelling. But canceling is a trend that needs to stop. So apparently what this meant was bringing out Morgan Wallen and Travis Scott, and there was apparently a Michael Jackson tribute. Yeah, right. So those are the three that were chosen. Now, Morgan Wallen is probably, in spite of the controversy around him, he's, I think, still probably the most popular country artist right now in America. He's certainly the the best selling. Yeah, he got like bigger. I don't think there was like a direct correlation between like him get like he, you know, he was caught saying the N word and like when he was drunk on video and, you know, he, his, his record sales have not been harmed in the least, but like, you know,

maybe he won't be honored at the country music awards or something like that. But, you know, self-forced, like unforced error. Like that is to me like an example of, you know, what people maybe talk about with quote unquote cancellation. Like with Travis Scott, I could see why Diddy would include him. You know, like Diddy back like when he was first getting started, you know, his, like he put on a like a charity basketball game that ended in tragedy. Like people got trampled. And so, you know, that was supposedly a career ender for him. So I can imagine.

Is Travis got canceled though? That's a good. Yeah. I never got the impression necessarily that, I mean, certainly. people, I mean, if anything, I feel like people moved on fairly quickly for Master World. It was, yeah, to a degree which is kind of frightening. I think it was just like... Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, what are the consequences of that, really? I don't feel like there was a great reckoning against Travis Scott, especially among people who actually, like, listen to

Travis Scott. I didn't get the impression that there was a big push to cancel him. Yeah. So that seems kind of weird to me. And you get Michael Jackson. Can you want cancel the dead? I mean? Yeah, he's been, he died like 13 years ago. So he's been gone for a while. And I mean, it's just like the range of offenses here where you have the Morgan Wallin getting caught.

Yeah. over the span of decades and so forth. A lot worse. Yeah. And then, yeah, just Travis Scott in there. I mean, like, it was more like with Travis Scott, like, hey, maybe he should lay low for a while, you know. Right. So.

Which seems like, you know, yeah, maybe. I don't feel like that's cancelization if you're having, you know, so many people who died at your concert. Yeah. I just, it's just fascinating. Is that really inconvenient? to like lay low. Yeah. I mean,

it's getting us to talk about the Billboard Music Award. So, you know, maybe Diddy was on to something there. But, well, yeah, that was so bizarre.

Yeah, it's actually kind of crazy because, like, of, you would think that, like, something like this would be top line banter,

but I don't even, like, this was actually kind of under the radar compared to, like, you know, there were stories about the NYC,

like subway shooter becoming friends with R. Kelly in jail and the Kendrick album, talking about cancel culture, and even Neil, Patrick Harris apologizing for having like a meat tray at his birthday that looked like Amy Winehouse back in 2011.

He apologized. Yeah, it was like right after she died. Yeah, he had a meat platter that looked like Amy Winehouse's corpse. And it said apparently right next to it, Amy Winehouse's corpse or something like that. Like he, as if it were not obvious enough. So I mean. And that just surfaced because someone tweeted about it. It's like, we don't talk about this enough.

It's like, well, what is the appropriate amount to talk about Neil Patrick Harris' meat platter from 2011, you know? But it did get him to apologize. Yeah, crazy week. Let's get to our mailbag segment. Thank you all for writing in. Always great to hear from our listeners. We're at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Ian, do you want to read this letter?

Yes, I do. So, um, hey, Stephen, Ian. My name is Ian Cruz from Detroit. Hey, Ian. Um, you guys write about musicians, but do you, by chance, play music? Have you ever been in a band If so, what was it called? What Did You Play? On that same note, is it better to be a musician

when writing music journalism or is it best that you have no clue about writing a song so you leave any bias at the door? Thanks, Ian, Detroit Me. That's a Homestar Runner reference for everyone. I just put that in there for kicks. So I feel like this has come up a lot when people talk about music writing.

I mean, because I feel like I've heard this many times. Like, oh, are you a musician? You know, how can you write about music if you don't play music yourself? Which, by the way, I've never been in a band personally. I have played drums with my friends. And I've dabbled in writing lyrics. Not full-fledged songs. I'm more like a Bernie Top and Robert Hunter type,

looking for a band to take my lyrics and turn them in the songs. But I've never been in a band. I know enough about playing music to know that being a bad musician is a lot more fun than being a good musician. Like getting together with your friends, drinking some beers, and just making noise is a blast. But having to rehearse and to play in tune and to play shows is like hard work. So, yeah, I've been a recreational musician in the past. Have you played music at all? Yeah, I mean, you know, I have, like, in the office where I'm recording this episode,

I have like four guitars. I have like two electrics, one acoustic and one baritone. They're all in different tunings. And, you know, like I'll play stuff that sounds. I guess like Alex G in that it's like, you know, kind of it's pretty jangly chord progression for five minutes straight. My wife is actually like a really phenomenally talented singer. So, like, we just started getting.

into the point where we can do covers, maybe open for some of our friends' band, but this is like very preliminary stages. You guys can be like she and him. Yes, we can be exactly like she and him. You'll be the new she and him. We're just going to do, but except for doing,

I just love how they put out something. It's like, this is their first non-Christmas album in eight years. But yeah, I think to your point about, you know, being, I've never been in an actual, like, practicing playing band. Like, I, I, I just have to,

cop to this. So, in 2002 or whatever, like, you know, it was after college when I was just kind of bumming around. Like, there was this kind of a band that I would jam with and, like, we would rehearse some songs in their garage. They were called Phaser. And I swear to God, like, this is the song that we warmed up to, ours fallen souls. Because we had a guy. Ooh, of course. Yeah, we had a guy who could actually, like, hit those vocals. Like, very Jeff Buckley-esque, We played actually several distorted lullaby songs. And that was like fun as shit, but like, you know, we never really... Is someone taking account of how many times you work hours into an episode?

Like, Jimmy Neco, if you're out there, man, like... You got to, yeah, Jimmy Neco, hit up Ian. He is waving the flag for hours. Because you just find a way to like worm an hours reference. I don't find a way. They wormed their own way in there. So let's go back to Ian's question here about, you know, is it better to be a musician to write about music or is not being a musician? Does that kind of leave bias at the door? I'm going to say, you know, I don't think you have to be a politician to write about politics. I don't think you have to be a chef to write about food. I don't think you need to be a musician to write about music. What you need to write about music is two things. One, you need to have opinions that are interesting. interesting, insightful, and or entertaining.

And two, you need to be able to express it articulately in some fashion. And I've met musicians who can do that really well, and I've met musicians who can't do that at all. It really is like a different skill set from actually playing music. I will say, though, that there's this generation of musician critics that exist on YouTube that I've been following recently. The biggest guy is Rick Beato. I don't know if you heard of that.

I don't know this person. He's the biggest one. I'm a fan personally of this guy named Pat Finnerty, who actually plays in Strand of Oaks, or at least he used to. And what he does in his videos is basically he sits there with a guitar, and he'll walk through songs, and he'll explain how they work,

and he'll play, and he's a funny guy, and his video's really good. He has a series called What Makes This Song Stink? where he takes terrible songs and he breaks them down and explains exactly why they're bad. There's a great video on Danny California. That's called.

That's one I would recommend. And I feel like that format is really good for that kind of music criticism where it's a musician breaking things down in a more technical way because I think when you write that way, it's really easy to get lost in the weeds. Because music writing,

it's not for musicians, it's for music fans. Most music writers are music fans first and foremost. So if you're using technical language or a lot of jargon, I think on paper that can really be indecipherable. But if you have someone in a video doing it, that seems like a really good medium, maybe even more than like the kind of music criticism that we do. We're just talking about music.

It's more visual to have someone playing guitar. You can actually hear the music and see them play it. so that kind of musician music criticism i think is really good actually and i think there's definitely a lane for that yeah i mean i i had no idea this kind of uh style of music criticism exists and more of that i mean does does pat do like a subsequent episode of the adventures of rain dance maggie i mean is it i did want on like train uh k soul sister i can tell you what that song sucks is it fucking so oh like it just sucks man like Like I think it would be...

To have someone, like, kind of walk through the chords or, like, walk through, like, how the song is constructed and comparing it to other songs in a more musical kind of way. I just think it's a different kind of thing, and it's really interesting. And I feel like I learn stuff from those videos as someone who's, you know, knows a little bit about music theory, but, you know, not very much. Do you really need music theory, though, to explain, like, why a fucking, like, you know, a band-like train making a song called, Hey, Soul Sister is, like, it's like... objectively terrible? I mean, look, maybe it does. But it does. You don't need it because obviously, like, you or I could talk about why it sucks and it could be really entertaining.

But I do think, like, getting that perspective is interesting. And it is, it's just like another way to come at it. And I think the video format, because, you know, there's all, I mean, there's tons of music critics on YouTube now. I mean, people talk about Fantano, but there's other ones who also have, like, pretty big platforms. The candlebox to his Pearl Jam or whatever. And, you know, I tend

to find that the musicians, musician music critics are the ones I like the most on YouTube because it is something different from what we do. And I think that's a good format for it. So yeah, so check out Pat Finnity, good videos, entertaining, informative. I like them.

Well, let's get into the meat of our episode and this is very, I guess, thick meat. Lustrous meat here. Well marbled. Well marbled. It's the new Kendrick Lamar album. Mr. Moral, the Big Steppers.

Double record. Although it's not necessarily the length of a double record. It's split up into two nine-song discs, but I don't think it's any more epic than to pip a butterfly. You know, very similar. Would you say, Stephen, that this is his being there? Yeah, you could say that. The famous, and that reference, of course, being that like a double album, quote, unquote, that could have fit on to one seeding. Right. And that was more

about making, I think, a nod to the vinyl era, you know, and wanting to do like an Exxel and Main Street type record. But no, we're not going to talk about Wilco now. We're going to talk about Kendrick Lamar, the new record. As we said at the top of the episode, there's been a lot of conversation about this record already.

Everyone's been wondering, though, what does Indycast think about it? And we've waited the appropriate amount of time to talk about this record. There's no anxiety about rushing on our part. I guess I'll kick this thing off.

You know, I have a lot of respect for Kendrick Lamar, so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think a lot of people, like when you read the reviews and there's been, like, a lot of, I think, really good reviews written about this record. Really good in terms of, like, the writing,

like insightful writing about this record. But you can really see people bending over backward, I think, to either, you know, like I said, give them the benefit of doubt or feel like, okay, the things that maybe aren't landing for me with this record, they're going to land for me in six months. So I guess I'll give that caveat as well.

I respect Kendrick Lamar. So I feel like this record has the potential to grow on me in the future. Having said that, I don't think this record's very good. I feel like this record has the shape of a profound statement, and that goes back to the double record aspect of it. but at its core it strikes me that Kendrick just does not have much to say beyond get off my back

that seems to be the message of this record that and I said this earlier he strikes me as a guy who has let all of the praise that's been heaped on him over the past decade or so I feel like that sent him completely into his own head. And there's a savior complex on this record. There's a sort of like, you know, like on the last song,

mirrors, you know, saying like, I'm sorry I didn't save the world. You know, there's like a sour kind of petulance to this record that is really, it makes it difficult to stomach. I have to say, too, that, and I want to get your take on this. there's songs on here that I think are so cringe-worthy that if it came from anyone else, they would be crucified by critics. Like, the song, We Cry Together. Yeah, well, I mean, there's a long history of that kind of song existing on rap records.

I know, but, okay, so, or like, or Auntie Diaries, like the mother's trans aunt. That's, like, pretty cringe, I think. Yeah. I mean, I just feel like, you know, there aren't a lot of bangers on this record. And there's also, like, not a lot of insight to me. I just feel like it doesn't feel like sustenance, and it definitely doesn't feel like fun. I mean, am I off base on this? I just feel like this record to me, it's interesting when you just think about, like,

what he's been through and, like, what it reflects about his state of mind. It really feels to me almost like a vomiting type record. like he's vomiting all this out and maybe his next record will be great because he just needs to get this bile out of his system. I don't know. Am I just totally off base here? Because this record to me, it feels kind of repellent at times to me. Well, you know, as far as like your first point of like, you know, respecting Kendrick Lamar's artistry to the nth degree, I mean, like this is like one of the very few artists who, like every single time. they put out anything. It could be, you know, like it's not, like album of the year until proven otherwise.

There's a very small list of people like that at the moment. Like I'd say Kendrick's on there. Frank Ocean's on there. Kanye was from late registration to say Life of Pablo. Beyonce's on there. Fiona Apples on there. And, you know, Kendrick, like his last three albums have like swept like Pa's and Jop. They've been number one on pitchfork.

They've been number one on Metacritic. And so, you know, proven the ability to shift paradigms and, you know, every single timeout. That being said of everyone that I've listed so far, like, I think we talked about this on previous episodes, like which artist was the most likely to make a total flop album? The answer to that one was easily Kendrick Lamar. First, because, like, Beyonce may never make a traditional album again. Frank Ocean, like, quality control way too high. with Kendrick, like, rap moves so quickly,

not just the sounds of it, but the politics of it. So no matter how revolutionary you appear at the time, like, you could be, like, kind of old head shit. And so on past records, like, Kendrick's had, like, a lot of, like, half-baked, goofy ideas. Like, like, on Good Kid Mad City, it's, like, based on, like, Hallie Berry or Hallelujah. It's like, that is kind of like a smart, dumb sort of thing to say.

or like on to Pimp a Butterfly, like how much a dollar cost? Like, what if God was really a homeless man? Like, this stuff was on there and just the overwhelming, you know, profundity of those records allow you to kind of like take it all in one. You have to just kind of take it all together. It was hard to nitpick certain incoherent parts of his worldview. And, you know, with Damn, it was presented in a way that was very, what the world needed, I think, at that time.

Like, very concise, very in tune with, like, resistance politics of 2017. And, you know, I don't think I would have been very interested if he made another damn. Like, that's not a record I listen to a lot because it's just been so overplayed. But, you know, a part of me always wondered, like, what it would be like to actually have, like, Kendrick Lamar do, you know, a podcast or an interview? like something where it's like not not like really worked over and very like market tested and you know just like unguarded and this is kind of his podcast album I guess where you know he's saying things and like in real time not really sure if he has thought this stuff through which makes it similar

to me to life of Pablo it feels kind of both overwrought and unfinished it's like a really steep drop-off from the masterpieces that preceded it. And it's a really interesting album to talk about. And as you mentioned, there are songs that I heard one time and I'm like, I don't need to listen to Die Hard ever again. I can discuss we cry together. I probably don't need to listen to that again. If I had it on CD, like, I think of like how on the Marshall Mathers EP, like, you know,

I would listen to Kim. even though I didn't really, you know, I hated it. You know, it's still part of the experience. And so I'm actually like on, you know, it's like we said in the last episode. It's like, I feel bad for this country, but it's great content. It just, it does more for me as far as making Kendrick Lamar interesting to discuss than another consensus across the board masterpiece. Yeah, I mean, with Kendrick Lamar, the way he's discussed, it really, I mean,

there aren't that many people, I think, in recent pop history that you could even liken them to. Like, in a way, he reminds me of, like, how people talked about Bob Dylan in the 60s. He was almost like this Oracle or, you know, spokesman of a generation. Right. Where, and Bob Dylan reacted to those kind of pressures in his own way as well, because it's an impossible standard to live up to. And, again, like, you can see how that has infected Kendrick's mind on this record. Well, how could it not? Well, exactly.

But, like, in some ways he's self-aware about it, in some ways he's not. Like, putting a crown of thorns on yourself on the cover of your record. Like, is that a self-aware move or not? I'm not quite sure. Oh, it is. But it's, I think with that, and this speaks to another, I would say, flaw of this record, it's that it's super obvious about the ways it wants to be provocative. Like, you know, the crown of thorns, and he's also wearing a gun.

Like, unfortunately, such, you know, as with, like, like David Chappelle and Jerry Seinfeld and other extremely famous people, like they're very obsessed with cancel culture. Exactly. That's another theme of this record. And that's always a red flag. Yeah. And someone is overly fixated on cancel culture.

You know, I guess I would have thought that, you know, it's been five years since the last record. You know, he's been out of the public eye for a while. I mean, deliberately.

And it is curious to me that he would come back and make that kind of statement because it's not as if like who is canceling kender klamar like like who was going after him you know in some aggressive kind of way i mean again he is like the most lauded music artists of the last 10 years i mean i don't think there's anyone even close to him well what i think is that he sees the culture it's like i'm not concerned about myself per se but like you know all these other artists who he's seen perhaps, I don't know, quote unquote, cancel. And it's like, what if they come for me? What if I told you what, and this is a theme of the record.

He's like, if I told you what I really think, then I would be in the same position as these people. It's like, what, like that Bob Dylan lyric, it's like something about, something about what I've seen. They put me on the guillotine or something. Like, you got to help me out here. If my thought dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. There it is.

Yeah, so I think that's kind of what he's coming. It's all right, Ma. Yeah, so I think that's where he's coming from on this. And, you know, and ironically or not ironically, saying what he really thinks, and all of a sudden it's like all these things that, you know, we're kind of hiding in plain view on his past records are now like the story, you know,

when you don't have like a humble or love me or all right to soundtrack, whatever is happening at the time. Yeah, I think it might be time to talk about Kendrick in the way that we would talk about a Kanye West or Dillie Corgan, who I think is on my brain because this is a double record. But he's a megalomaniacal pop star. Like on top of being a genius lyricist and he's made some great records, he's also kind of a megalomaniac. And I think that is the side that's being exposed on this record.

And I do agree. I think that's interesting. you know, but it also is a toxic element on this record that I think makes it hard to get through. Yeah. I mean, I'm just sort of also happy that we can look forward to a year-end list that Kendrick Lamar dropped an album and it's maybe not necessarily going to be sweeping at all. I mean, by the time, like, the reviews ran from, like, pitchfork in New York Times and so forth. Like, no, like, it was like, yeah, okay, like 7.6, not a big deal. It, like, barely made a dent worse.

I feel like a few years ago, that would have been, like, two days worth of discourse. Well, and I think Rolling Stone gave a three and a half stars. Yeah, man, they're coming down hard. They only gave Harry Stiles four stars. Did Harry Stiles' last record get five stars? I have no idea. I know it was on, like, the 500 greatest albums of all time. Yeah, they compared it.

I'm just looking at the capsule on Metacritic. They compare it in the span of one sentence to Steely Dan, Al Green, and Yoletango. So, yeah, I guess we were wrong with the Prince. Look, you know, again, shout out to Rolling Stone for, you know, the things they are good at. And, you know, they also have some goofier tendencies when it comes to pop stars. But yeah, that's a new one. So, yeah, this record, I think it'll sound different, not in six months, but like when Kendrick puts out another record.

We're even a year from now. Yeah, but I think when he puts out his next record, I want to listen to this one again. Because I think that will be an interesting context. I do feel like this record in a way, it feels like a transitional work to me where he's working through some things on this record. And it's, again, I think there's like a lot of toxicity

on this record, but maybe he's on the way to making a much better album after this. I will say that I think Good Kid, Mad City, to Pimp a Butterfly, those are both classics. Yeah. I don't think Damn is in that same category. It feels like a step down from those two. And this is, I think, definitely a step down from Damn for me. Yeah, I just wonder when the next album comes out, like, is it going to be like kind of a quasi-Arcade fire. It's like, oh, Kendrick is back. Like, are people, you know, going to be super stoked to, like,

have him return to the height of his glory? Or is it going to be? Yep, culture's passed on. I don't know. I'm very interested to see that. I just think that this kind of proves that we are definitely not in the same place that we were in 2017 or even 2018 when they put out, like, you know, the Black Panther soundtrack, which is about as, like, mainstream crowd-pleasing as you could possibly get. Yeah, I'm glad this album exists. And, you know, if I, I don't know, in college or something like that, I would probably make a big part of my personality to like say, no, actually, this is better than to Pimp a Butterfly. Like it's, it seems like a contrarian's choice, which, you know what, there's a, there's a place for that. Yes, contrarian's choice. This record's a

masterpiece. Let's just declare that right now. We'll take that stake. Yeah, we're investing in the futures market of Mr. Morrell and the Big Steppers is actually a classic. We are getting it on the ground floor. It's the bored ape of takes. We've now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So yeah, this week I want to talk about a band called Gospel and the album's called The Loser. I know that's not very SEO friendly. So they're a hardcore band from New York City.

And like one of the good and possibly bad things about like being a writer in this realm is that you can buy like one person can kind of over exaggerate the influence of the impact of a band. You know, especially if like they existed like 15 some odd years ago. It's like a cult classic might just mean, you know, an album that you think didn't get enough. attention and all of a sudden it's being repeated. I saw that a little bit with like Gospels at last album, which came out in 2005. It's like a hardcore cult classic. And you know what? It actually, it actually kind of is.

They've come back 17 years later with a record that amps up and I'm like I'm being dead serious here. It's got kind of a 70s Prague sort of vibe going on with like the organ sounds and like the harmonized guitars. I wouldn't even describe this as a hardcore record so much as like comets on fire if it was produced by Kurt Ballou, which it actually is produced by Kurt Ballou, the guy from Converge. And it's it is so unique that I can't imagine it ever really being hyped up. Like I don't know what audience this is for. Like it's a band who hasn't existed for 17 years. they're hardcore but they're not like Jerome's Dream or those screamo bands that can come back and

like go on tour with Tusha Amore or what have you. I don't know if they are touring. But definitely one of the most unique records that's been put out in recent vintage. I think it's awesome. I also would understand if like I and maybe two other people are the only one screaming about it in a month. But you know, if Comments on Fire and Kurt Ballou mean anything to you, you're going to love this one. So I want to talk about a record called The Last Thing Left, and it's by a band called Sey Sumi. This is a four-piece band from South Korea. And they've been around for about a decade.

And this is their first album in four years. And they really have just this classic indie pop sound. And their influences just go across a spectrum of what you would expect from an indie pop band. You have some elements of the Velvet Underground, some elements of Maddie Star, little bit of pavement. Really like a lot of the great indie rock records of like the 80s and 90s, you can hear traces of that. When I was listening to this record, it reminded me a lot of the great Scottish band, Camera Obscura. If any of you out there remember that band, I would say that this is South Korea's answer to Camera Obscura. And of course, I've been waiting for South Korea

to have an answer to Camera Obscura for a long time. I've heard this band also described as surf gaze, which I think describes the sort of bouncy melodicism of this band. Really kind of zippy guitars. They have like, again, the vocalist really reminds me of Hope Sandoval from Mazzie Starr. She has that kind of quality

to her voice, a little bit sad, a little bit melancholy, even when the music is really catchy and bouncy. But again, this just strikes me as a record that is perfectly timed. for where we are right now. Again, I know in San Diego, 78 degrees every single day.

No, this is May and this is June. It's like 68. Okay, well, it's actually warmer than in Minnesota right now. May, May, gray, June gloom. This is very real. Like, I'm not even being, I'm not even bullshit in you. So I've been enjoying being outside a lot lately. We're in flip-flops and shorts and just enjoying the summertime.

All the flowers and trees are in bloom. and if that is your reality as well right now, check out this record. It's called The Last Thing Left. The band is Say Sumi. You're going to love it. It's a perfect soundtrack for the late spring, early summer. I will also say that it kind of,

it doesn't fill the void exactly, but when I hear it, it's like, oh yeah, this kind of hits that Always Pleasure Center. I've heard they've got a new album done. I can't tell you anything more about it, but apparently they're playing new songs on the road. So, yeah, the kind of dream pop, surf gaze, like, basically if you like pretty indie pop, this is going to do something for you. I can definitely see the Always comparison, and I've also heard that Always has an album in the can.

We always have to wait like four or five years for Always Records, so it's always nice to have really good bands that can do something similar. And, yes, it just give us that pretty indie pop goodness, and that's what this record is. So definitely check it out. Or if always has their Mr. Moral and big steppers in them, you know, I'd like to hear that too. I would not. I would like to have a 33-minute record from them that that's perfect and has no bad songs on it. I think that's probably what they're going to deliver. What does always have to say about cancel culture?

Nothing. Hopefully nothing. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixed Hapest Hap newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.