Indiecast - Let's Dig Into The Mailbag: Gen Z's Music Stats Obsession, Demos In Box Sets

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

It's the calm before the storm on the show this week — Steven and Ian are working on their year-end albums lists ahead of the big reveal in early December (1:57), so in the meantime they decided to answer to some listener questions. But before that, Ian shared the shocking news that he watched The Last Waltz for the first time over the Thanksgiving break. What did Ian think of this foundational film in Steven's life? Naturally, he gravitated to Van Morrison's purple suit. The guys also commenced a brief Bookcast segment to talk about the hellacious new book about southern fraternities (and how they coincide with southern rap), Among The Bros by Max Marshall.In the mailbag (29:38), Steven and Ian address topics as diverse as Gen Z's obsession with personal listening statistics (30:20), whether an artist sounding a lot like another artist is a distraction (36:50), and the value (or not) of demos being added to reissues and box sets. (44:57)In Recommendation Corner (51:07), Ian talks up the latest from Quannic and Steven recommends the extremely long in the works new album by Peter Gabriel.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 166 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indie Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we respond to letters from you, the Indycast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He drove up to Hillside Manor sometime after 2 a.m. and talked a little while about the year.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? So I guess there's a little spoiler alert. I watched the last waltz for the first time. time, but I guess I didn't watch it hard enough because I assume you were like offering me like a show of solidarity by quoting like up on Cripple Creek or something like that. No, I'm quoting a long December. Yeah, I did not know that.

I don't. Oh my God. Because we're posting this episode on December 1st, so it is a long December season. Yes. I thought for sure you would recognize a long December quote. What's going on here? You thought that was a ban quote? I drove off to.

I'm not going to like try to. sing like Levan Helm. Look at me talking like a fucking band expert. But that's like, I think that's like one of the lesser lyrics, right? I mean, it's one of the best lyrics, I think, in the song. It's toward the end. Oh, there you go.

But I mean, come on. I feel like a long December, that is, that's canon. I feel like you would know that. I'm a little disappointed here. I'm beside myself, quite honestly. I fucked.

I fucked that up big time. I mean, I've heard Long December. I like that song, but I guess I'm just not paying. Adam Durrett, if you're listening to this podcast, and I think there's a non-zero chance of that. I mean, if you quoted, like, Angels of the Silence is I definitely would have got that. Oh, my God. Well, anyway, we're in December.

It's a long December. We're in the lull of, like, before year-endless season. I mean, we've had some year-endless come out this week, but I feel like, next week is going to be when things really start to happen. I know I'm posting my year-end list next week. We're going to be doing our best albums of 2023 episode next Friday, so look out for that. I have to say, like, this year,

I find myself being more excited about making my own list than I have in a while. You know, I'm going to quote one of my favorite SNL sketches, Steve Martin. I feel young again. I feel 38. That's how I feel right now. I feel like a kid of 38 making my list. And I think it's partly because it's been a really good music year, I think. Like revisiting my favorite albums, putting my list together, I feel like, wow, there's a lot of good albums here. I don't know if there's like a lot of

masterpieces this year. Like I'm not seeing a lot of out and out home runs on my list, but it's like a ton of doubles and triples. And I feel like those years where you don't have two or three dominant albums, because I don't think there are two or three dominant albums this year, just like albums that are going to be at the top of every list, maybe you think I'm wrong, but I don't think that, I think you're going to see a lot of different albums at the top of lists. And I kind of like those years more. It just seems like there's like a lot of like really good records. that could end up on a variety of different lists.

It just makes things more interesting. I mean, do you think, do you just, do you agree with that? Or do you think, do you see dominant players out there that are just going to be everywhere? Well, I'm going to make up for my long December flub by saying in a year that's like largely triples and doubles, not a lot of home runs. It's like a Paul Molitor type season. Did that work? Or you could have said Robin Yel.

Robin Yel. Yeah. But, you know, I appreciate it. I appreciate the Wisconsin sports references. Thank you. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that there are going to be albums that you see, you know, in a weird way, I think that, like, you know, Olivia Rodriguez and Boy Genius are going to be, like, you know,

it doesn't matter what kind of publication you run. That's going to be on there, but they might be, like, number eight or ten. I mean, like Rolling Stone is definitely going to have one of them at number one, that's for sure. But I think otherwise, there isn't anything that's really dominated the discussion. and I don't know if that's been, you know, I don't know if there's really been anything like that since, like, you know, fetch the bolt cutters or, you know, maybe the year before.

I think, well, like, Beyonce last year, I think was that kind of record. I forgot already. Like, I don't think that there's like a Beyonce Renaissance-type record this year. Or, like, when there was, when Kanye was in his prime, you felt like when he dropped my beautiful Dark Twisted fantasy, like that was just automatically at the top of everything. everyone's list. I don't, like, you're right.

Yeah, Boy Genius and Olivia Rodriguez. They're going to be in the mix. But I don't think that either one of those are like the de facto number one for most lists. They're going to be in the top 10. But I feel like you're going to see a lot of different number ones. I feel like, you know, low-key, like there's this kind of ambient buzz that, like, that Boy Genius and Olivia Rodrigo won the year. But the albums are maybe not quite as good as they are popular.

But, yeah, I think we're going to see, like, you know, endless number of permutations of, like, the same albums. You know, like, Wednesday is going to be number one at a bunch. And then you're going to have maybe Caroline Polichick at number one. But, like, on the ones where Caroline Polichick is number one, Wednesday is going to be, like, number four. And vice versa. So I think I'm ready for some dark horses. But, I mean, gosh, I haven't spent, like, any time formulating my year-end list, largely because I don't think there is something that my year is centered around.

There's been like two-month chunks where something was like, I guess that's number one. But I don't know. Maybe it's just like my increasing obsolescence that I don't feel like, you know, I have to shape my year to the narrative. It's kind of sad. I think in terms of like the broader list-making community, if we're talking about dark horses and it's weird talking about them as dark horses,

because they're both very well established as critical favorites, but they aren't necessarily in that Olivia Rodriguez-Boyo Boy Genius conversation. But I'm curious to see, I think Lana Del Rey and Mitzky could do really well and maybe sneak into some of those top spots. The Lana Del Rey record in particular, I feel like people really love that album. People have talked about that being the second coming of Norman fucking Rockwell, which I don't necessarily agree with. I don't like it as much as that album.

album, but I understand where they're coming from. It is very much musically of a piece with that album. And A&W is definitely one of my favorite singles of the year. Like that single is great. I think the album on the whole, I think

drags a little bit in places, but the highlights are really high. So I think that could do well. And again, calling her a dark horse is not really accurate. But, you know, in terms of the conversation of who owned the year, I think she could sneak in there. And Mitzki as well. I mean, Mitzki's going to be high up for me,

personally, which we'll talk about more next week. You know, a complaint you often hear this time of year is the standard. Why are you releasing lists in late November, early December? You know, this is wrong. You should wait until January to put out your list. And, you know, I always feel like Hyman Roth and the Godfather Part 2, when people bring this up, it's like, this is the business we've chosen. You know, this is, you know, we have to put out lists now

because that's when everyone else is putting out their list and if you wait too long, your list becomes irrelevant. I mean, that's just the way it is. But it is interesting this year because there is an argument in previous years where a lot of times there is like that one list record album that comes out

after lists have come out or as they're coming out where people want to do that fraudulent thing where they put it on the next year's list. Like we've talked about SZA being that album this year where people are going to put that on their 2023 list even though that came out in December. I don't know how you feel about that.

I think that's totally fraudulent. I think you have to either put your list out later or just accept that the calendar is the calendar. You can't say my publishing, schedule takes precedence over the calendar where I'm going to pretend that a 22, that a 22 album is out in 2023. Do you feel that way or do you think that's acceptable? Like if you see SZA on list, are you going to accept that as a legitimate placement on a list? I mean, I guess, I mean, like we usually, especially with like decade album lists, you know, we, there's sometimes like year

of impact as opposed to year of release. And we've had a couple of albums that have really confounded things. We had, you know, like Beyonce self-titled in 2013, DeAngelo in 2015, or was that 2014? I think it was 14. Okay, yeah. So those come out and. Black Messiah. Yeah, yeah, that one. And, yeah, I don't know. Here's, here's a good question. Do you know, do you want to know, like, 1979, a year, like, with no internet, like, everything is long lead. London Calling came out in December 14th. Right.

Yeah. So, did that? Oh, it was released in the United States in January. So that's how they get you. Okay, because that album was named by Rolling Stone as the best album of the 80s. Yes. which is an even more egregious example what we're talking about. I guess if it came out in the U.S. and January of 80,

then you can call that acceptable. I didn't know that. So, okay, so that's okay, I guess. Because that seems cheap otherwise. But, you know, the thing about this year, you know, because, again, because like in previous years, and you mentioned some records, some of like the list record records that came out in December,

or late November in previous years. You know, a lot of years there is like a big ticket rap record that comes out at the end of the year or a big ticket pop record. I mean, that's a pretty standard thing. I mentioned my beautiful dark twisted fantasy earlier. I think that came out like right around Thanksgiving. That was absolutely right around.

I've very vivid memories. That was November 22nd. Yeah, and it's like, I just picture like arcade fire and vampire weekend thinking, like rubbing their hands together. oh we put out the suburbs we put out Contra man we're topping these lists

then Kanye comes along drops this self-consciously designed masterpiece on critics and they have to tear up their list and he goes to the top of almost everybody's list that year Twin Shadow feeling ultra salty you know

Was Twin Shadow in the mix Well not in the mix Not in the mix But I mean that was the year that Forget came out Fucking awesome record I also I mean maybe in Twin Shadow's mind

I thought I'm going to be at the top of list. That does track with what I know about Twin Shadow. Because LCD sound system, they put out their quote last record that year. This is happening. That was another contender for a year-end list. The monitor. What a fucking year.

That's a great year. But, you know, looking at the release calendar this year, I mean, it really is, like, pretty empty. Like, we've gotten most of the albums. Like, we're not missing much in December. This week, Out today is the new Peter Gabriel album, which I'm going to be talking about in

Recommendation Corner, Spodler Alert, which I think is a great record. I don't know if that would have really made a difference in Year Endless necessarily. Next week, there's a new Nicky Minaj record, so I guess that's like the big ticket rap record that's going to drop in December. Pink Friday, too. Again, I don't think that would be a factor on Year Endless. I don't think so. I don't know.

We'll see. There's also the Tate McCray record coming out, which is like the big pop record, I guess, of December. By the way, do you know Tate McCray? Do you know what kind of music she makes? I'm vaguely aware of their presence. I think they were on Saturday Night Live recently. But like I ultimately assumed that like Tate McCray, you talking about someone named Tate McCray, was like an extension of you going to the Bass Pro Shop to buy a Garth Brooks album. Right. It sounds like a country singer. It really does.

But she's like a Gen Z, Britney Spears, essentially. Based on what I've seen, I have not dug deep into the Tate McCrae catalog yet. But I saw a music video and it was very, you know, kind of Brittany-esque. She was born in 2003, by the way. July, 2003. She is as old as the Meadowlands or AFI sing the sorrow. I was thinking that, too. I was like, was like, was I buying room on fire the day she was born.

Probably. You know, just, it's like that graphic at the end of saving private Ryan where like Matt Damon ages into the old guy, like instantaneously. That's how I feel. She's slightly older than Room on fire. She was born on July 1st, so. Yeah. Okay. So if I didn't buy it the day it came out, I still could have bought it on her birthday.

Yeah. Wait, no. Wait, she was born before it came out? Yeah. She was born in July. So I'm just going to go to the tape right now to see which albums came out around that time that we would know of. So basically if you bought My Private Nation by Train that day or stereophonics put out now that day. Or the self-title.

She's about as old as the self-titled Rooney album. How about that? Is that the first one? Maybe. Yeah, probably. Yeah, that's the one with that's the one with that. the bear on the cover. That is absolutely the Rory album. Right, right.

Can we just thought, we're just gonna talk. Yeah, like, we're just gonna talk about. What was their song? What was Rune's song? I'm trying to remember. I mean, that's not the big one. Is that the big one? I have an image of them playing on a beach. They had a big episode of the O.C. where

they just talked, like, the plot centered around, I guess, like a Rooney show, and it would be like, hey, you're going to the Rooney show? Rudy's playing. Rooney's fucking awesome. It was like poochy except with Rooney. Yeah, I'm Shaken. That might not be the big one, but that's like the, that's the fucking banger.

Was that the cover of the Eddie Money song Shaken? No, but I think it's a worthy addition to the Shaken, the Shaken catalog. That's a good, that's a good rock song name, Shaken. Get a Shaken in your title. Not enough bands these days, writing songs called Shaken, or I'm Shaken. Or, you know, shaking all over. It's a good, it's a good rock. You shook me all night long, you know.

You shook me like mid-afternoon. You can't go wrong with shaking. It's a good rock and roll verb shake. It works. So, okay, so you brought this up earlier. You saw the last waltz on Thanksgiving. And you'd never seen it before. Yeah, somehow I think, like, I maybe tricked myself into thinking I'd seen it or just like by nature of doing this podcast with you over the past three years.

I've, like, micro-dosed it in that, like, it formulates in my brain to having seen the whole thing. But, you know, like, the day after Thanksgiving is that's our annual Christmas tree buying and Christmas tree decorating day. So we need something in the background as we do that. Last year it was get back. And this year, I'm like, you know what? I need to, like, sit down and watch this. And, you know, the good news is with watching it on freebie, it's three hours long about with commercials. So, you know, this took up time.

The band's kind of a blind spot for me. You know, I know up on Cripple Creek, obviously, enough to not remember all of the lyrics. A fucking incredible song. Shaken, great rock and roll verb, clavinet, great rock and roll instrument. Oh, yeah. Not enough of that these days. But, you know, my revelations of, A, it's as good as you've said it is. And I had a couple of, you know, major revelations from that, first of which is that, you know,

the band, I think they self-consciously model themselves as like Civil War reenactors. But they're all wearing incredible fucking outfits. Yeah, they're wearing like suits and Robbie Robertson's like long ass scarf. Oh yeah. I mean, you look at those guys, they're all like in their early to mid-30s. They look like they're 50 though. I know, it's crazy. Like you think like Mac DeMarco is older than now than Robbie Robert.

Robertson is in that movie. And it just goes to show like, you know, men had something going on back then that we, that men of our generation do not have. Like, they just have a gravitas. They're handsomer. They grow better beards. They dress better. I feel ashamed of myself when I watched that movie.

I'm like, why? Like, what happened to men since 1976? We are way, like, we're way worse than we were. I mean, you see, yeah, we're awful now. Yeah, you see, like, Richard Manuel and, like, first off, like, you see Muddy Waters playing. Oh, my God. It's, like, this is the coolest anyone has ever been. Yeah, and he's, like, you know, 70 or whatever, you know, like, he was older.

I think he died six, seven years after that movie was filmed. Yeah, he was, he was 63, no, he was actually 35 years old. Nah, he was 63 years old at that time, I guess. But, yeah, just, yeah. It's like young guys looked older and older guys looked younger back then. And they all looked awesome. Except for Van. Well, no, Van Morrison looked awesome.

The first thing my wife is like, wait, like, who is this guy singing when they're doing caravan? And it's like, oh, that's Van Morrison. And it's interesting because I think the popular idea of like what Van Morrison look like is like the hat and the glasses. the version you see on the cover of his latest like five albums like five CD you know concept album about like Dr. Fauci like no one has I had no idea what he actually looked like aside from like the Astral Weeks cover and the hat and glasses version but man I you have you did not undersell the Van Morrison scenes oh man like the purple body suit and

And it's another example. Like he's, you know, out of shape and he's balding. But he owns it. Peak male performance. And he transcends it. It's beautiful. So even guys that didn't look good back then looked better than the best looking guys now. Yeah, absolutely.

We're now into men. We're now in the men's wear cast. Yeah, exactly. I'm amazed that you hadn't seen it, but that you saw it this time. I was trying to think of what's my equivalent of a touchstone for you that I'm not familiar with. And I was just trying to think of something. And I realized it's like, I don't think I've listened to like an American football album in its entirety. So maybe that's something I need to do and report back.

I mean, it's not as foundational as the last waltz is to me, I don't think. but like I know that's a big band for you. I have not really delved into them at all. So maybe that's something I need to do. Yeah, I mean, the influence of American football, maybe that's like part of like what, you know, that's why you're saying like Mac DeMarco or like you see kids on TikTok doing like Midwest emo songs

to like SpongeBob scenes. You know, maybe that's where, maybe we lost our way in 1999. Well, we'll see. I don't know. I'll find out. I got to dig into it. We want to do a quick book.

cast here before we get into our mailbag? Have we ever done a book cast? Aside from like actual music books, no. Okay, so there are some musical elements to this book, but it is not mainly about music, but we need to talk about it, and I think our readers need to read this book. It's called Amongst the Bros. And it's by, is it Max Marshall, I believe is the author? And it's a book that you were tweeting about.

and you posted some screenshots and I was like, I got to read this book. And I'm only halfway through. So you've read the whole thing. So there's some elements to it that I'm, I guess I don't want you to spoil for me because there's like a true crime element to this book. But basically it's about southern fraternities

and just the pervasiveness of drugs in this community and like the crime, the organized crime, the drug dealing going on. It's just a fascinating book It feels like a book I don't know if this book has been optioned yet for a movie It feels like this is going to be a movie Or like a limited run TV show

Right? It has to be It's so visual when you read it And it's such a great story So many great characters One of my favorite characters in the book Is this guy named Biscuit Who is a friend of like the main character

This drug dealer named Lil Mikey. He's like this 5-9 guy, but he's like super swab and it's a big-time drug dealer. And Biscuit is this like idiot. Turtle from entourage. That's why I imagine like, yeah. He's like this idiot who like drives like an escalate or something and it's like loaded with like Xanax pills and like he pulls guns on people if they don't park his car immediately like

at the strip club where he's going to. But he's like an associate. of like Scooter Braun and Justin Bieber. And I'm guessing that the music business part of the book becomes more prevalent because they talk about how Lil Mikey is friends with Waka Flaka Flame. But like this biscuit guy, he's like an assistant to Scooter Braun and Justin Bieber.

There's also a story about him hanging out with Dave Grohl at one point. I forgot about that one. Yeah, there's like a throwaway line about him taking a photo with Dave Grohl. I was like, man, Dave Grohl. The notoriously camera-shy, David Grohl. Right. But I don't know. Reading this book, one of my takeaways is just being reminded of, like,

how big of an impact Xanax and other downer pharmaceuticals have had on pop culture and music in the 2010s and probably now still. You know, like you can really hear that influence on music and just knowing that all of these college kids, are just taking tons of pills along with drinking, like getting blackout, drunk, or, you know, taking Xanax and drinking and then doing Coke to stay awake.

I don't know, it's amazing. Like, you have more firsthand experience with this. You were actually in a frat, right? Like in the South. Yeah, I was in a southern fraternity, a frat and a Southern university, but it wasn't a good one, so I can't really relate. That's always the thing.

Like, people are like, wait, you weren't a fraternity, but I'm like, yeah, but it sucked. So, like, don't judge me. like that. We were, we were, me and my friends, we were like watching clerks the animated series and listening to Ween. So, but nonetheless, like, my experience at Virginia in like 1998 to 2002 gave me a kind of vision. Like, I know these people. I know this type of fraternity. I know, like, the type of fail sons who go, and look, all due respect, like, college at Charleston, they actively present themselves as like kind of a playpen for.

rich fail sons and daughters. They know that. But also, Charleston fucking rules. That's like a great place to have a wasted four years. But, you know, back in my day,

you know, the type of people that come across in this book, which connects like two of my favorite fascinations, which is like Southern fraternity culture and organized crime. Back in those days, you would listen to like Robert Earl Keene

or Lyle Love It or Garth Brooks. And I do have to point out that I don't, I'm not sure if you would have picked up this book as quickly if like the excerpt I posted did it include widespread panic. That was a big deal back in the late 90s, early 2000 to the South. You definitely had some spreadheads even in like the most like uppity Southern fraternity. And, you know, also like my, so my favorite part of this book is that it shows like the evolution of like the one guy you would know from the Southern fraternity who listened to like. like three doors down and, you know, country music. But like they liked three, six mafia and literally no other rap because they just happened to be from like Memphis or something like that.

And you see the evolution of like that guy to like an actual drug dealer. And I saw this firsthand when I lived at the, you know, I lived in Kentucky for a year in 2016. It was in Lexington. So it was the university. And every time I walked by like fraternity row there, they were just like blast. the ever-living shit out of like schoolboy Q or Migos. I'm sure there was a lot of brok country like Tate McCray or people with similar names being played.

I just didn't hear it. But if you haven't gotten to the part where they talk about frat shows.com, that's the most fascinating part because I would hear about guys who were, you know, Fettiwap and Waka-Flocka and, you know, like, or like mid-2010's quasi-one hit wonder rappers who, played along really well with like EDM who would just do these fraternities like SAE at Oklahoma and I think back to like you know the late 90s when I you'd hear rumors about like hey I heard beta got like two thirds of run DMC to play their homecoming party for like $3,000. It's like a weird big business so this there's just so many elements of this that lead to it having like a wolf of Wall Street like an Adam McKay sort of thing because you know you have the organized crime, you got the drug dealing, you got the southern fraternities going on,

but you also have like EDM slash hip hop and that sort of broculture as well. I read this book in like two days. Fascinating, fascinating stuff. If you want to see like the decline of American culture in that time. Yeah, just like you mentioned Wolf of Wall Street, like how these guys just watch that movie. They love that movie, yeah. Like, unironically, like, they take no satire from it at all. It's just straight up, like a, you know, like a manual for how to live your life.

Just the worst lesson that you can take from that movie. I should say, it's called Among the Bros. I said Amongst the Bros. Maybe in English, it's called that. That's right. A little too highfalutin for this book. It's Among the Bros. I'm halfway through it.

I love it. Maybe we'll do another book cast once I finish it. But definitely check it out. And like you said, there is like a weird kind of shadow story in the book. Like one of the tributaries of it is talking about this like frat circuit for rappers in the 2010s. Even though like a lot of these fraternities have either like no black members or even like excluded black members in the past. It's like a very weird and I'm sure common dynamic going on there. Yeah, K.A. like the Calpa Alpha Order, the one they mentioned, like the one at Virginia, you would hear.

hear about them having like a cannon in their front yard pointed at like the one black fraternity on the street or like them dressing up as like civil warring in actors but not in that like respectful the band sort of way like there was some real dark ugly shit going on there well in the book also talks about how like the k a fraternity was intertwined with the kKK for like the first 50 years of the fraternity it's like so fucked up but a great book among the bros it's called definitely check it out All right, well, let's get to our mailbag finally here. We've got some emails from our listeners.

It's great to hear from you, as always. Even the people who write us angry emails, there's a couple of those people, or at least people who write emails with an edge to them. We get a couple edge emails, like people who are like vaguely insulting in some of their emails. And it's like, I just think, do you expect this to be read on the air

if you're doing the insulting thing? We're probably not going to read those unless they're funny. So if you're going to make fun of us, at least make it funny. But these are some very nice emails, some very interesting emails from our listeners. Thank you for writing in. We're at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com.

Hit us up. Always great to hear from you. Do you want to read this first letter? Yeah, this comes to us from Maddie from Kent, Ohio. Nice. Yeah, from a Gen Z listener. Nice. So, hey, Stephen Ian.

With the end of the year quickly approaching in the release of yearly compilations, such as Spotify rap being teased, which I believe is dropping the day that we record. I was wondering if you guys had any strong feelings on the accession with music statistics that has taken hold over the last few years. As someone who always looks forward, seeing their big year-end list of music, I feel sites such as last.com, Spotify stats, and so forth,

have kind of taken some of the fun away. Maybe this is more prevalent younger generations, but I found myself checking my monthly listening habits a lot more over the last couple of years and then knowing exactly what to expect once Spotify Raptor is around. It feels like every week there's a new trend going around advertising some website that will throw your monthly favorites into a diagram that looks like it was made into an intro and design class. Graphic design is my passion. Anyways, big pods, a big fan of the pod. You guys have gotten me through some tedious work shifts.

Gen Z, Maddie. Oh, good question, Maddie. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this, Ian, because I definitely think that this is a generational thing. Or at least it's not true for me in terms of. of my personal listening. Like, I'm not tracking what I'm listening to every month. Because I'm listening on multiple platforms. I'm on Spotify.

I'm on Apple Music because of all the music that I have, that I've downloaded because of promos or that I've uploaded from CDs. Apple Music is the clearinghouse for that. So I find I'm actually on Apple Music as much or more than Spotify. And then, of course, I'm listening to physical sets and CDs. and stuff. So it wouldn't even be accurate for me if I was just relying on the Spotify wrapped. And I guess I'm also just not that interested in it personally. And I do think that on that token, there does seem to be a generational thing like where, because this generation

has grown up listening to music online and it's so easy to quantify what you're listening to, that it does predispose you to being more interested in your own stats. and then you have super fans who are like gamifying essentially they're listening, like where they're trying to boost the streaming numbers for their favorite artists and that becomes a big campaign on social media. So yeah, personally I'm not really interested in it. I mean, professionally I am, you know, we talk about this on the show all the time. We're both fascinated by like artists who get a lot of press,

but they don't have many monthly listeners on Spotify or, the reverse where someone has a ton of listeners, like way more than you would expect, but they don't get written about. That's always an interesting thing to explore. Also, just as a barometer for what's popular right now, I mean, that completely overshadows the Billboard chart now. Like, I don't remember the last time I checked or cared about, you know, the Billboard Albums chart.

Like, who won the week in sales? Like, it's been years since I've cared. it about that because it's just not a relevant rubric anymore. So professionally I care, but personally, I don't really care. What do you think, Ian? Do you personally care about your stats? Well, I guess I did when I first started using Spotify. That was exciting in the way that any time you get a look under the hood of music sales, which have been kind of notoriously dark arts. And, of course, like, I'm a sports. person. Like my twin obsessions are sports and music. So like any way, anytime you can quantify this

something that isn't really a competition, it's just interesting, if not like impacting how I listen to music. You know, I used to like really take the MTV video countdown seriously. Like I didn't know what the fuck was responsible for saying like what was the number one video of the week and what was number five. But like I just love and again, like maybe this is like a guy coded thing. But, I just love statistics. And this ended almost immediately after I started using Apple Music as my primary streaming service. Like Spotify rap, like I don't even know what it's going to bring up this year. Probably podcast, but like I also will play block parties like eating glasses, like a tuning fork.

Because like the first thing you hear is like an open e-note. So sometimes I'll play that and like tune my guitar to it. but Apple replay is their version of rap. It's just garbage. Apple music is superior in so many ways, but the social component sucks. Like, this is the one time per year where I regret using it. Also, it's, like, extremely inaccurate. It says that I listen to, like, I think the Hot Mulligan album 60 times,

which is absolutely not true. I love that album. But, yeah, I think that, like, I don't buy the idea that it's, like, ruining how music is consumed or made. Maybe a Gen Zer, such as Maddie will tell us differently. But yeah, I don't buy that. But I think it's just the useful way to just give another perspective because let's face it. Like at this time, this point, like my entire worldview can oftentimes shrink to like the three or four simultaneous group DMs I have going on.

So I just kind of need to get a bigger perspective of, hey, wait a minute. I've never heard of this generic indie rock band that's playing the Thousand Cap Room in San Diego. Spotify allows me to see, oh wait, you know, Del Water Gap or whatever, has like twice as many listeners per month as say, I don't know, Julian Baker. I don't know if that's true, but it's just another way to get perspective. I don't know if it's an obsession anymore, but it's just fun. That is, again, like the most interesting use of the stats when you can measure someone's media profile versus their actual listeners.

I find that really interesting too. And just measuring the gap there because there's always a gap. And trying to figure out why that is, that's probably my favorite use of statistics in listenership on these streaming platforms. Let's get to our second letter. I'll read this one. This is from Chris in Fort Worth, Texas.

He says, Long time listener, first time caller. I have noticed that the older I get, the more I listen to new music, and it reminds me of things that came before. That seems like a normal remembering some guys problem for a 40-year-old Indycast listener, but sometimes I hear a new artist that sounds so much like another artist that it beers on distraction. I guess I am focusing on vocals. Take the new Hotline T&T album, for example.

Great album, yes it is. But I can't help but think I am listening to the band A Great Big Pilot of Lebes with power cords. We're gonna, I wanna hear what Ian has to say about that comparison. My man, Chris, he said, remembering some guys, great big pile, leaves, 40-year-old Indycats listener, hell yeah.

That was like an easteric for you. I don't believe that that was like the first band that came to mind. I think Chris is like, I'm gonna suck up to Ian and drop this semi-obscure emo band in here. I am also enjoying the new album Girl with Fish by Feeble Little Horace.

also a really good record, but the lead singer sounds so much like Frankie Cosmos. I was looking it up on the internet to see if it was a side project of Greta Klein. Has that ever happened to you, that you enjoy a new record from a band, but in your mind you can't help but think you were listening to someone else.

And that's from Chris and Fort Worth. So are you ever distracted by a band sounding too much like another band? And it may be detracting from your enjoyment. I think it depends on whether this, band is kind of funny in how much they sound like another band or it's like accidental and they're like the type of band who would hey it's like hey you sound a lot like a band accent like no we've never listened to that like in the way that I think uh like Joy DeVit or Interpol would like talk down the Joy to Vision comparisons but you know right now it's 742 in the morning uh we're

about 42 minutes into the podcast and this is the first time I'm going to mention the band ours. It usually takes much shorter. But see, this is an example of like the funny version of doppelgangers because like, I mean, this was like Jeff Buckley's old guitar tech and their whole shit was sounding like a more kind of post grunge, like trashy Jeff Buckley. That I can enjoy. But then there are other times where it sounds, I don't know, like more accidental. Like I've been open about this on the podcast before. The first time I listened to Gang of Youths go farther and likeness. It evoked a lot of big, you know, two aughts indie acts like The National and Arcade Fire, Titus, Andronicus. And keep me in the open, sounded so much like the National, like even the

drum beats that I found it distracting. And it took me a while to kind of get over that. But, you know, other, and like Hot Mulligan, a band I'm going to mention for the second time. Like so much of it sounded like the wonder years that, but not intentionally. So I think of a band. I think of a band. is just acknowledging itself as, hey, did you like this band? We're going to sound exactly like that. Like, oh, I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about the band, Kingdom Come in 2023. Please tell me, like, wow. Yeah, like their whole shit was like in the eight, it was the 80s, right?

They were like a hair metal version of like Led Zeppelin. Right. They were kind of like the gorilla black to what, what Biggie was. They were the Greta Van Fleet of the 80s. Yes. Oh, fuck, man. I didn't, yeah. Yeah, Greta Van Fleet, I can enjoy it.

Like, I am not mad at how much they sound like Led Zeppelin or what have you, just because they're so ridiculous. Yeah, it's so over the top with them that, at least for me, it becomes kind of endearing. You know, these young guys who love Led Zeppelin so much, they probably started listening to Led Zeppelin six months before they made that record. They're just like in the Zeppelin phase, which many of us went through at a certain time in our lives.

You just think Led Zeppelin is the best best. of all time. And that was always my feeling with Greta van Fleet. They made that record in the middle of the biggest Zeppelin phase of all time. Yeah, most people have that when they're like 12 or 13. But they did so when they had like the means to actually try making Led Zeppelin. Now it was a dangerous combination. Yeah.

So, you know, I want to go back to something that Chris hinted at in his email, which was talking about how this is something that I think happens as people get older. And I do think it's a common phenomenon where you get to a certain moment in your life and you become fixated on musical signposts from your past. And everything gets compared to those signposts. And I do think that to a degree these perceptions of like, oh, this band sounds too much like this band, it is a matter of your own perspective. And again, I think it's more common as you get older where, and I've had friends like this. Like, anytime you play in a new band, it's like, oh, this sounds like Nirvana or this sounds like Arcade Fire.

And in their mind, they think, well, the music of my youth was original and the music of now is just a bunch of rip-offs, which, of course, isn't true. I mean, like, every, I mean, there were people in 1991 that heard Nirvana and they were like, oh, this isn't as good as Husker Do or the replacements. You know, like old heads would be saying that kind of thing. So I think that's somebody to be aware of as you get old. and to maybe try to check that in your mind a little bit. Like, I'll say, like, for me as a critic,

I really like hearing these sounds and influence change over time. And as I get older, you can see more of music and more of a perspective on that that I find really fascinating. Like, you know, this year, for instance, has been really big for a kind of music that 20 years ago would have been called Alt Country. You know, it's like rock bands, playing pedal steel guitar, and combining like rock riffs and country influences.

And you have a band like Wednesday, for instance, who would have been called Alt Country probably if they were out in 1997. But that term is outmoded, so we don't use it anymore. And it's interesting to take that band and see how they draw on those influences, but also combine it with like smashing pumpkins and other things.

where it's similar to that, but it changes. And that's how all music works. It changes, like, kind of minuscule but important ways over time. And it's important, I think, to recognize that and not just focus on, like, something that might be similar to something else. So, I don't know, that would just be what I would say. If you're feeling like, oh, I'm getting older, and a lot of things just sound like other things I've already heard,

maybe it's not quite as similar as you might think. Yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I sometimes lose sleep at night thinking if I were like, I don't know, 25 or 30 years old in 2000 rather than 20, if I would hear kid A and think, this is just like a square pusher and, because those people existed for real. Of course, of course.

It's always like the older guy. You know, the guy who's, you know, like if you're 20, the guy who's like 29 or 30 who's just going to take a shit on any new thing. Or like when the strokes come out. Like, oh, this is just like run of the male rock music. This is the knack for 22,000. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, oh, come on. This is Garb. You know, what? You know, there's always that person. And you don't want to be that person. You don't want to be that. Because no one likes that guy. That guy sucks.

So, don't be that guy. Yeah, maybe you are that. Like, maybe you have these thoughts. But, like, just to be able to, like, check it and have some degree of, like, you know, self-awareness. And also not to talk, like, a 1920s prospector, you know, with that accent. Or maybe do talk with that accent. If you're going to be that asshole, like, really lean into it.

Be, like, great. Greta Van Fleet. Don't be the, you know, like the Interpol, you know. You want to read our next letter? Yes. So this is Scott from Northern Virginia. And Scott, you got to let me know, are we talking about, like, Stan? Are we talking about like, are we talking about, like, are we talking about, like, I mean, there's so many unmemorable Northern Virginia suburbs. I say that as someone who lived in Virginia. Shout out to that part of the country. But anyway, they redeem themselves with the bonus question. A common selling point for album reissues or remasters is the addition of previously unreleased demo versions of the original tracks. While getting more music from a beloved album can be exciting, I repeatedly find demos to be an essential because of poor mixing or missing elements from a final song. As such, rarely listen to a demo and never more than once. What are your thoughts on bands releasing demos? Do you value them as an insight into the band's songwriting process or, like me, consider them a necessary filler?

Is there a notable demo version of a song you listen to on a regular piece? basis or rate higher than the official release. Bonus question, pretty girls make graves, yay or nay. Wow. I'm going to punt on that one. I haven't listened to that band a ton. I guess I like what I've heard. I guess I'll say yay.

It's not a strong yay. I assume you're a yay. Yeah, massive yay. Massive yay. I mean, they were a band that, and if you haven't heard Pretty Girls Make Graves, they were kind of a short-lived band late 90s, early 2000s. They were on Lookout Records for a bit. And I think they signed to Matador for an album or two and then broke up.

But yeah, this is a band we like kind of considered for the, when we made the big vulture best emo songs of all time list. We wondered if they were possibly like grandfathered in. I think it was just also, well, hey man, we need like some more female fronted acts besides Sergeant Raina Maria. We ultimately decided no. I think if they came out like today, they would be considered emo, but like probably not in 2003. They were in that like dismemberment playing with Savi Fave, kind of art punk scene. Yeah. Like, like, Pretty Girls Make Raves, absolutely fucking yes.

So a big yay from Ian. I'll do like a medium yay from me. As far as the demo question is concerned, I think that most of the time, demos don't add a ton to a reissue or a box set. But when they are valuable, they can make the box set or album like so much better. And the example that I would bring up immediately for that is the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot box set that came out last year, which I kind of think it's probably like a top five or six box set of all time for me. I think it's an amazing box set and it has a lot to do with just all the demos there. And what sets it apart is that Wilco, of course, they were doing radically different things in their demos.

So you could have multiple versions of camera that really sound like, you know, five or six different songs. So when you have a band like that, that's really adventurous with their arrangements, that makes the demos more interesting. A lot of bands with their demos, it just sounds like a shittier version of like the official release song. And that tends to be a little bit boring. So definitely in the case of Wilco, I love the demos. Another example I'd get from this year is the Who's, Next box set, which is like an enormous, it's like 10 discs box set.

But a lot of those are demos, and a lot of them are just like Pete Townsend by himself, playing all the instruments and doing all the vocals. And in a way, that version of Who's Next is more modern sounding than like the actual record, like the actual record, which I love, obviously, but it's like this stadium rock ultimate 1970s type album. whereas the demos kind of sounds like Pete Townsend is like car seat headrest or

you know like a band camp Trubidor making a rock record in his bedroom and you know I know like with the Who a lot of people don't like Roger Daltrey's voice you know he has a very macho you know again 70s rock singer type voice whereas Pete Townsend again it's a softer kind of more modern singer-songwriter type voice

so that's another example I think where demos take the album in a different direction that makes it interesting. So, again, I think most of the time I would agree with our letter writer here, Scott from Northern Virginia. But again, the exceptions are really exceptional. And I'm glad those demos were released. Yeah, I think that for me, I don't really like listening to demos.

I feel like it's intrusive in a way. Like sometimes like bands are like, hey, working on the next record, you want to hear some demos. Like not as like, hey, we're going to slide you this. Maybe you'll like our album more. But like, I don't even like sharing my own work in progress. So therefore, like, it's, you know, it's understandable. I wouldn't want to listen to a band's demos. And I can't think of too many times where I've heard a demo and think, oh, this is the superior version.

You know, I know some people think that way. And the only times I really listen to demos, even if they are on a special box set, like when I'm actually reviewing it. I did that, for example, like, I think the, like, my version of, like, you listening to the Who's Next 10 CD box says when I did the reissue of, uh, the aeroplane flies high, the smashing pumpkins, like five, five CD, uh, box set that was expanded to like a hundred more songs. And you got to hear like the smashing pumpkins do like live versions of, uh, those

songs and like the special winner song. If you're a Smashing Pumpkin's head, you know that's, like, super meaningful because, like, James does, like, a rap in the middle. Those are cool, but, and also just remind you of, like, a time where Smashing Pumpkins might have, like, actually liked to hang out with each other. But otherwise, I am. Not really a demo person. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call a Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? Yeah, if I'm being honest, like, I think I spent most of this past week trying to revisit albums I like from, you know, the ancient times.

of February and March to see about my year end list. But one that I've kind of come across that I've been trying to get more into is from an artist called, I guess it's called Quonic. It's QUA and then three ends I see. The album is called Stepdream. They're one of the artists on Dead Air, which is on the same label that gave us Jane Remover and Kudeca, an album that I think I talked about in late 2020. And it's really interesting to see how a lot of these artists that might have been called

like hyperpop or digitcore a few years back as their stuff evolved they get way more into like late 90s alt rock uh jane removers album which we talked about a few weeks ago um you know kind of sounds like more like hum or post rock quantic is more like i well the first riff sounds exactly like page of the lion's options which is great but this is kind of more post okay computer i'm gonna bring up ours again in a very loving way, but also maybe the first muse album, like the one where they were radio head rip-offs. It gets into that kind of like electronic-leading, anthemic alt-rock from the late 90s. And it's just so fascinating to hear artists who were like, you know, born in 2003, you know, like as old as Hail to the Thief, uh, doing that. So, um, this is an album that I've

just like kind of enjoyed on a surface level, but I think it's more indicative of like, larger trends to see how younger artists who were once kind of cutting edge like oh that this is the future of music kind of gravitate towards you know kind of stuff that people of our age likes in the same way that like a lot of

emo bands end up becoming like Wilco fans but this is just kind of a variation of it so the album Quantic Step Dream So I want to talk about a record I referenced earlier in the episode and that is the latest from Peter Gabriel and I don't know to pronounce this album title. I'll just say it's I slash O. That's how it's typed.

Bond and air type shit, yeah. I don't know if there's some crazy pronunciation going on with that, but this is the first Peter Gabriel record in 21 years. And apparently there are elements of this album that go back to 1995. So Peter Gabriel's been working on this record longer than, you know, like many Gen Z years have been alive, which I think, alone should make this album worth your time. You could spend an hour listening to this Peter Gabriel record that he spent 27 years working on. But this is a record that he's actually been releasing throughout the year. He started putting out singles from this record in January.

So it's been floating around songs from this record throughout 2023. It's now finally being released as an album. I actually ordered the two CD plus one Blu-ray version of this record. And there's a bright side mix, a dark side mix, and an inside mix. So you get like three versions of the album with like three different mixes. Pretty crazy. I think I mentioned this on the pod. I saw Peter Gabriel live earlier this year and he basically did this whole album.

and it was a beautiful show, beautiful music, extremely ornate, as you'd expect. His voice sounds incredible. It actually made me think, listening to it, that I can hear his influence on a lot of modern art pop and art rock. In a way, I don't know if he gets credit for that. I feel like Peter Gabriel's like a little under-discussed, a little underappreciated, but, you know, I was listening a lot to the El Rain record this week. I killed your dog, which is an El. album that's really risen up in esteem for me in the past couple months.

And listening to that record, I was like, oh, I bet she likes Peter Gabriel. There's some definite Peter Gabriel vibes on this record. And I don't know. I would love to see people rediscover him. He's basically like the male Kate Bush. You know, like that's how, that would be my elevator pitch for younger audiences who aren't sure if they want to check him out. I mean, he did a duet with Kate Bush, a very great song called Don't Give Up.

But I think there's like a similarity in that they're both like arty theatrical pop music makers who have really catchy songs, but there's always this sort of mysterious, enigmatic element going on with what they're doing. Beyond like what you might know from Sledgehammer. Sledgehammer is obviously his most famous song, but that's not really reflective of his whole catalog, which again is I think much artier and more Prague rock. But anyway, I love this record. I love that it exists. I think it's such a crazy amount of work that he put into it. And I'm looking forward to luxuriating in it all three versions of it this weekend. Yeah, would you say like in your eyes is like his version of running up that hill being in stranger things?

Like that was like the 80s version of that. Yeah, that's a good, that's another good parallel there. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I think that Peter Gator, first off, I'm like disappointed that if it has a Blu-ray, it doesn't have an enhanced CD version where there's like a video game that you can play. That seems like a very, if something's been in the work since 1995.

But yeah, it might be on one of these CDs, because there's two CDs in a Blu-ray. So maybe one of the CDs are enhanced. I'll let you know, I'll report back. Yeah, I think he is kind of an undervalued guy. You know, whether or not it's like an influence, I think that there's enough similarities

to like what he's doing. an artist like basically it like an artist says oh kate bush like it's not a far leap to be into what peter gabriel does so i don't know maybe in 2024 he's uh it's his year i think he's you know if people aren't directly influenced by him they're influenced by bunny bear who is definitely influenced by peter gabriel so maybe some of that gets laundered through bonnie bear and other people that have been listening to him but anyway looking forward to listening to that this weekend That about does it for this episode of Indycast. Thank you for listening.

We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.