Indiecast - Let's Revisit 2011, Part 1

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

A decade in the rearview, 2011 has revealed itself to be a very interesting year for indie rock. There are several albums that were considered to be very important in the moment, but have, in the years since, faded from the spotlight to become not much more than asterisks. Remember Whokill? How about the first and only Wild Flag LP?That said, there are still some albums that stand the test of time today: self-titled efforts from Bon Iver and Joyce Manor, Real Estate’s Days, M83’s Hurry Up, We’re Dreaming. In this episode of Indiecast, Steven and Ian are reflecting on the first year of the 2010’s to determine which albums still have that staying power.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Ian is vibing with Green To Gold, the latest album from 2010’s stalwarts The Antlers. Steven, on the other hand, is plugging his new retrospective on Stone Temple Pilots’ Tiny Music. Check that out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talked about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we're going to be looking back at 2011 in revisiting some of that year's most notable albums. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

You know, Steve, I don't know if it's like my age or my taste. or maybe the pandemic, destroying all the frame of references, which I've used for so many years to talk about, like, music. But I don't know. There are just, like, some days where I think, do I really have anything to contribute to move the conversation in music? Like, do I have anything relevant to say? I know.

Are you, like, staring into a mirror right now with, like, uh, yeah, this seems like a come to Jesus moment here, just to opening the show. going into the abyss immediately. Yeah. I mean, this is, like I, we do, like I've said before, we do the show right when I wake up, and these are the thoughts that plague me, you know, through those dark nights of the soul.

And I do go through sometimes, like, hours, days, sometimes even like weeks of feeling this way. And then, and then something like the new black MIDI single happens. And then I just jump right into action. This sounds like Primus. I am more prepared. than Dan, there are anyone else to have the conversation about Primus's retconning in the indie conversation. And then I'm back in business, man. The Primusants. The Primusants maybe,

maybe upon us here in 2021. Because yeah, we're in this post-pandemic. Well, I shouldn't say post-pandemic. We're looking ahead to that. We don't know what the world's going to be like. Up could be down. Down could be up. Primus could become a core influence on indie rock as we know it. like the idea of like 22 year old music writers looking up sailing the seas of cheese in their streaming platform and listening earnestly to this in order to draw a connection between this and Black Midi. Sailing the Seas of Cheese, by the way,

is that the first premise album? I feel like that's like the first one that I remember. Yeah, that's like the first, I think that's the one with is that the one, no, pork soda's got my name as mud if I'm not mistaken. That's the one with Jerry is a race car driver. either way. The Big Brown Beaver song, I think, is on the line. No, that is from Tales from the Fish Bowl. Like, and here's the thing, man.

You were so fast with that. My God, that was like the quickest draw on the West. Yeah, and here's the thing. Like, I own several Primus CDs somehow, like most people did, and I never listened to them. So it's like, it's just amazing, like, how much detritus of the alt-rock era I'm able to maintain. Do I like Primus? Not really, but it's, it's just, I kind of gauge new music, particularly with rock music on its ability to like integrate stuff that isn't already canonized.

And that's, you know, my problem with a lot of the post-punk that Black Mini gets like lumped in with. It's, you know, the fall, Gang of Four. Like the stuff that's been canonized like through like over and over again throughout the past 30 and 40 years. But now it's like, oh, we're ready to have a Primus conversation. Cool. I'm down for this, even if I'm never going to listen to this. more than twice. Yeah, I mean, they're a band that I think I like them, but I'm the same way as you.

I never listen to Primus. And I think if you were to put on a Primus album, I would be excited at the beginning. So I'm like, oh, we're going to listen to Primus. There's something fun and funny about listening to Primus. But then probably within five minutes, I would feel like, okay, I got it. Yeah, I got the vibe here.

But, yeah, I'm very curious to hear the rest of this. black middy record. I'm curious if maybe less Claypool is actually on the record. Maybe he makes a guest appearance and lays some ridiculously complex like baselines on the record. I think that'd be amazing.

And maybe there'll be like a pitchfork Sunday review on pork soda or sailing the seas of cheese. Sailing the Seas of Cheese turns 30 this year. Oh geez. Which is incredible. Now I'm back staring at the abyss again. Yeah. That That's crazy. Sailing the Seas a Cheese of Cheese approaching middle age.

Like the ultimate, just dirtbag 90s teen album is now approaching middle age. Another album I have not listened to is the new Justin Bieber album. And I just wanted to bring this up because it's called Believe. No, it's called Justice. Oh, it's called Justice. That's right. Okay. What did I think it was called Believe?

Because Justice is like a way fun year. Because Believe is also kind of a bit of. a, you know, a twist on his name because, like, you know, Justin Bieber, justice, and B'Lebe, you know, like the Bleeper. So, yeah, I see where you're coming from on that. Okay. Is, I mean, is there a Justin Bieber album called Believe? I feel like there, I don't know. I could be totally wrong. I am not up on my Bieber. Yeah, my, yeah, we're, not to the degree I am with Primus, sorry. So really, you know, Justin Bieber, it is a name that resembles the phrase justice believe. It's like if you believe in justice, that's so profound.

But this is an album that I have not heard and I'm determined not to ever hear because I only want to experience it through Twitter. I've only experienced it like from what people have said about it. And sometimes it's fun. I find to have big pop cultural things that you know you're never going to watch or listen to, but you just experience them through like social media. I kind of like to have a couple things like that, you know, around. And the Bieber album is it for me. Apparently he samples Martin Luther King. And who among us haven't done that on our big pop album, you know?

I mean, it's like not even you two did that. You know, like I feel like you two, that was there for them. Yeah. At some point, I mean, they wrote songs about Martin Luther King. Probably around the same, probably around the time that they were like Justin Bieber's age now. There's like a certain kind of like earnest young white man who in his mid-20s just starts quoting Martin Luther King all the time. But yeah, everything about this album that I've heard is hilarious. So that's why I just want to experience it through social media.

I feel like it's people are like take like there was the initial like, oh, look at him. He's sampling MLK like ha ha ha. And then people have kind of come around on the camp. beat him, if you can't beat him, join him sort of thing. It's like, no, actually, you know what, he's pretty good as far as, like, you know, reliable pop stars go. You know, we can do a lot worse. It's that familiarity you start to see, I think, with certain artists where, you know, whether or not, like, the music is good. Like, if you hear it in the supermarket, it's like, yeah, this isn't so bad.

I have actually heard the one song Peaches, though, because I work amongst, you know, people who listen to pop music. I've thought, like, wow, would never voluntarily listen to it. And, but, you know, then again, like, I think about people their age and, you know, how much I had to, how much I was involuntarily subject to pop music. And, you know, that comes right back around to what I was saying before. It's like, if I'm not engaging with the greater pop universe, what do I really have to say? Well, there's lots of other things to say.

There's lots of other things to say. For instance, you could not hear the album and make fun of it on a podcast. I think that is a very valuable service for people. Is the song Peaches? Is it about the provocative Canadian pop singer? Peaches? No, because she put out a song recently called Pussy Mask. That would be, yeah, that went about as well as you could think.

But no, it is, I think Peach is a sexual metaphor. You know, I'm going to go out on a limb right there. Is Peaches the singer, is she Canadian? I have no idea. I went on a limb with that. I'm sorry, if someone could fact. me out in the Indycast community. I could be wrong because Bieber's Canadian too, right?

Beaver's Canadian and Peach is, I remember her from that era of like the early 2000s where everyone was pretty much Canadian. So there's a good, there's a non-zero possibility. So I'm just Googling quickly. I just Google, she's Canadian. She is Canadian. Oh, there you go. So good for me.

So maybe Bieber is paying tribute to a fellow Canadian with this song. It's strong, man. Could have happened. Do we want to mention, too, that there's a new Lana Del Rey record, apparently in the works? How crazy is it that, like, a Lana Del Rey, an album announcement, not just a new album announcement, but one where she is basically just making a record to settle scores with critics. Yeah. Yeah, like, this is no longer, like, the first thing I want to talk about.

Now, granted, when the album comes out, if it is everything she says, it is, oh, my God, I cannot wait to hear her get in the ring or whatever she, plans to do. God bless Lana Del Rey, man. She is really looking out for us. Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, this is like, we're in a real dead zone right now

with music news and new releases. That's why we're talking about 2011. 2011, yeah. We're doing two episodes on 2011. Also, I mean, it's fun for us, and I think our listeners will enjoy it. There's like a lot of fun things to revisit,

things that we haven't heard in a while. Records that are old, but in a way seem new because we haven't heard them maybe. in several years. Yeah. But yeah, God bless Leonard Del Rey for, you know, announcing right after she puts out a record, Kemp Trails Over the Country Club.

She says she's going to put out a new record, which, as you say, it sounds like she's setting it up as a get in the ring, Guns and Roses type move. Because she says that, like, she was angry about things that were said about her during the long album cycle for Kemp Trails Over the Country Club. So now she says that she's going to settle the score on this album. You know, Lana Del Rey and Axel Rose have hung out before.

Like there was that tabloid story, like where Axel like went to visit her in like the mid-2010s. I'll have to take your word for that. That's true. So he's a fan. So maybe he's being brought in as a mentor for this record as an executive producer of spite. because Lana Del Rey already has like really long songs like Guns and Roses in the usual illusion era every song is sort of like November rain or estranged

already so to inject some spite about music journalists I think will be great looking forward to that let's move over to our mailbag segment today's question comes from Brian who I don't think he said where he was from Brian Brian, so wherever you are, thanks for writing in.

After listening to your great discussion on Animal Collective, I've been thinking back to the era of feels, meaning the album feels and not just, you know, good, good feelings. And how some of my favorite music from that time got lumped into the unfortunately titled subgenre, freak folk. And while semi-embarrassing genre names are nothing new, it doesn't stop you from hearing about chill wave and witch house still. As an indie music media addict, I write for a Berkeley College of Music, so I can kind of say it's work-related research.

Ha-ha. I've noticed I just don't hear the term freak folk mentioned ever, nor do I see retrospectives citing the genre's influence. The artist's albums I'm thinking about would include feels and sung tongs, both Animal Collective Records, but also Devendra Banhart's Rejoicing in the Hands, and Joanna Newsom's The Milk-Eyed Mender. Any ideas on what current acts might be pulling from these influences, even if unwittingly?

My guess here would be Big Thief, maybe solo Heather Trost, though she was active during freak folks heyday so maybe that doesn't count very curious to hear your thoughts thanks for reading and thanks for making this great show thank you brian for writing in so what are your thoughts on on freak folk here you know brian is saying that he likes freak folk but he doesn't feel like it really gets brought up now do we feel like it's an influence on current indie music at all you know i think it's awesome that you know if i'm to you know read between the lines you know this is a college student who uh is super into freak folk and like you know this is around the age i was you know i was you know i'm to read between the when it was still happening.

And we'd be remiss to not mention our pal Riley Walker. He, you know, someone who loves this music, his music has influenced it by it. And on Twitter, he made just, like, out of nowhere a list of his top 30 freak folk albums. And, like, it's like, I mean, the first thing, whenever you see, like, a subgenre list of, like, 30 to 50 albums, you have to, like, make the joke. What, there are 30 freak folk albums, period. And, but, I mean, I love the depth of it. And it's from a pretty narrow, you know, range. It's, like, more towards, like, the psychedelic and fried version of freak folk.

Some great stuff on there, you know, espers, you know, six organs of admittance, some burn hand of the man. I like some of this stuff. Yeah, it's really comprehensive. And he did have the milkhead mender at number one, by the way, which does seem like the, you know, the, what would you call it, the cornerstone record of that scene? Like, the one you would pull out. It's the illmatic of Freak Folk, if you will.

Yeah. And with this sort of music, like, I think people look back on Freak Folk. You know, the name itself isn't that ridiculous, but it's more just the idea that this is the sort of thing that, you know, the indie rock narrative coalesced around. And, you know, when I think back to like that actual era, you know, I think of what was going on at the time, you know, the Iraq War just started. like it was first, you know, turn of George Bush.

And I think, like, Freak Folk was in some way, like a re, at least the embrace of it, kind of a reaction to that. It's like, we could, let's all just kind of go back to this mystical 60s ideal of like, you know, kind of tweet, kind of arrested development sort of, not arrested development, like kind of the concept, not the show nor the band. But it makes sense as like its own sort of protest. And, you know, I think that the milk eyed mender being number one on Riley's list is, you know, indicative of like where freak folks influence manifest now.

It's more from the singer's songwriter sort of perspective. I think you can look at like, you know, Julie Byrne and Jessica Pratt as artists who would have very much fit into that realm. I think maybe if like Angel, like the early Angel Olson and Wiseblood stuff might have been freak folk adjacent. But as far as like the stuff that like centers around this list, like Esper, like the bands that's like six or seven people,

people living on a commune playing 10-minute songs with like, you know, fuzz guitar solos or like animal collectives, more improvisatory stuff. I think there's still like a realm for it. Like I don't want to say King Gizzer because like I don't think they have anything to do with each other. But no, I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, I think this music is still being made. It's just more on the fringes was just probably where it belongs. I mean, it is interesting that freak folk became semi-mainstream and even produced art. that I don't think... Became stars, I think.

Well, you know, I think of artists like Bunny Bear and Fleet Foxes who aren't really free folk, but they had some of those elements in their music and they were able to draw it into like more of a commercially palatable package. And they were able, obviously, to carry it forward once this scene came and went. But, I mean, I think you still see artists on the periphery that, you know, like I've called them indie jam bands that sort of bridge the gap between indie music and in jam music. Yeah. You know, there's groups like that that exist.

And then there's also, um, a lot of, you know, instrumental acoustic guitar music that's being made all the time. Yeah. You know, Yasben Williams, her record that came out that's done really well in that realm. You know, Daniel Bachman has a record that's going to be coming out soon that I think would have been called freak folk. If, if, if, if this were 2004 or not 2021, you know, even people. people, you know, like Rowley Walker or Steve, Steve Gunn, you know, artists like that on their

more psychedelic instrumental records, you know, they might have been lumped into that freak folk umbrella. What I think is interesting is that, you know, and you said this earlier, that freak folk really kind of came out of this, like, idea of the 1960s, this like sort of like druggy hit-hury cult vibe. Yeah. Yeah, or even like, you know, not even like Little Canyon, and more like Manson family, like living on the Swan Ranch. Like that, like that kind of vibe. And I think in the past 15 years, like, we've seen that 60s influence on indie music and just pop music in general, I think, really fade out. Like, when you see artists now, they tend not to go back any farther than the 70s.

And like even the 70s now, yeah, even the 70s now are diminished. Fleetwood Mac only. Or like, you know, like the late 70s. punk, post-punk thing. Obviously, that still gets manifested. But obviously now the reference points are more 80s and 90s, and the explanation for that is pretty obvious. We've just had a changing of generations.

You know, if you're 22 years old right now, it's possible that even your parents didn't listen to 60s music. You know, like being into the 60s now as a college student, it sounds like our listener here is one of these people, which is cool. But, you know, being into the 60s now, would have been like being into Robert Johnson, like when I was in my 20s. And by the way, I like Robert Johnson a lot back then. But, you know, it's the kind of music that seems really distant,

and you have to dig a little harder to find it, you know, because it's just not being referenced as much. So I feel like that probably has also influenced how we think about freak folk, because it's so tied to that 60s idea. And I think the artists that are making psychedelic-sounding folk records now, they're not as tied to the aesthetics of the 60s. Like, they're not dressing up in 60s clothes. They don't have those types of album covers to the same degree anymore. So, yeah, I think that's as part of the passage of time. But yeah, definitely go on Twitter, look up Riley's list. There's a lot of great records on there worth exploring. And he did a great job. Someone should pay him to write that story. I mean, I think he did a great job with that.

I don't know how much of a market there is for a list of 30 freak folk albums. But, But if there is, hire Riley to do it. He did a great job with it. Let's transition now to the meat of our episode, which is a conversation about 2011. And we were inspired to do this because there are a bunch of albums that are out this week by bands that had a real moment in 2011. You have the antlers, you have tune yards, you have real estate,

you have a new, I guess somewhat new band called The Natural, which is led by Kip Berman, formerly of Pains of Being Pure at Heart. So all these, you know, 2011 artists or artists that we might associate with that year are coming back. And instead of talking about their new records, we're going to talk about old records from 2011. Because, again, you know, these are old records, but in some respects they are new because the records that we're going to be talking. talking about in this episode and our next episode, some of them I haven't played in a really long time. And yeah, I don't know if you had this experience, Ian, but, you know, as we were getting ready to do this episode, I was looking at, like, my year end list from 2011.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, I'm at a point now where I don't get as excited now to make a year end list. It's not something that I get really, I used to care about it a lot. I don't care about it as much now, maybe because I realize that what I care about, in the moment in a particular year is rarely how I feel later on. Like I end up discovering new albums that I like more than the albums on my list. But I was really grateful to have this 2011 list. If for nothing else, just to have a marker of how I felt in that year, it is like a diary in a way.

And it was really interesting just to see like, oh, that's what I cared about. And like half of these records I don't even really remember that much. I think that's probably true for most people as they listen to music. Yeah, I can't find my year-end list, which is a real bummer. Because I can remember the top four or five. And for some reason, like that friendly fires album, Paula was like it was in there. But otherwise, I can't remember. Like, I really, really can't.

And I really wish I would able to see like what was number seven, you know. Was that published on pitchfork? No, I think that was the year they stopped posting individual lists, and nor can you find the individual list from Paz and Jop either. So that has lost the dustbin of digital history. You know, pitchfork, I wish they still publish individual ballots. Yeah. Because personally, I always am more interested in what specific writers think than what a publication thinks. But I think publications, they have this vested interest in sort of protecting their,

institutional voice. You want to speak with one voice. You don't want to have like 25 voices that dilute the, you know, the endorsement of the mothership. Personally, I like seeing the individual ballots. Someone liberate Ian Cohen's ballot from 2011 before we do our next episode. I don't even know if I wanted people to see it. No, you know what?

Release it. Release it. Put it out there, man. Release the tapes. People need to see it. We need the Cohen cut of 2000. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

So the first album that we're going to talk about was my number one album of 2011. And it's by a band that I mentioned earlier. They have a new EP out this week. The band is real estate. And the album is Days. That was my number one album of 2011. And it's interesting because this would not be my number one album now of 2011. I'm going to talk about that next week.

But I still like this album. I still like this band. I enjoy the new EP. It's called Half a Human. I know we disagree on that. I know you are not a fan. But I enjoy that EP. And I've written about real estate in recent years.

I am kind of shocked looking back that a band, this unassuming, was like kind of zeitgeisty once upon a time. Like this was a top 10 album for Pitchfork. I think it came in. at number nine. You know, they were written a lot about, I mean, they were considered, I think, one of the most acclaimed guitar, pop bands of their time.

And it's impossible for me to, like, imagine a band like this ending up in Pitchfork's top 10, you know, in 2021. I mean, a group that really has, like, no narrative, you know, other than just, like, writing, like, pretty and melodic rock songs. And, you know, I was thinking about 2011, like, significant things that happened that year. And that's the first year that I remember people live tweeting albums as they, as everyone heard them for the first time. Because, you know, before that, obviously, you know, that was the age of albums leaking all the time. So people didn't really have that collective experience.

But Channel Orange by Frank Ocean, which came out in the summer, I believe, of 2011. That was 2012, man. That was 2012? Channel Orange is 2012. Nostalgia Ultras 2011. Yes. Okay. Well, anyway, my point is,

even though I'm talking about a different year, you know, I feel like that element of social media, which obviously has become even bigger than the music media in terms of like how successful albums are and how they get talked about, you know, it's more important that people talk about you on social media than getting good reviews at this point. I wonder if that like,

spelled doom for bands like real estate. Because I feel like the cult of personality in indie music has become so important. And if you're a band like real estate, where again, you're a good band, but you're sort of a faceless band. And you don't have a narrative to you. If that was just the beginning of the end

of that kind of band having prominence. I think that's true. And also, you know, maybe the quality of their music declined a little bit as well. Well, yes, because, because Daze is a beautiful record I think it's probably their best record Oh I think Daze is definitely their best

And here's the thing though Like you mentioned how You know it's tough for a band like that To become prominent anymore But when I think about like the big Influential bands Of the past like you know The past decade

I mean you have like war on drugs And like Tame and Pala As being the real like big bands As far as like the model For like how to be vibey but also like a one-man band. I'll tell you what, like on a lesser level,

like a less like popular level, like the bands that kind of fill up the middle class, real estate, Mac DeMarco, you can not overstate how influential those bands are. That's true. As far as like, yeah, because like you hear, you hear like just, you know,

kind of modest bands that are guitar-based, maybe not like indie rock, but like guitar-based. And those two bands, I tell you. Like, I mean, maybe real estate's going to be

kind of like an REM-ish sort of thing where like people think, like, man, no one really sounds like real estate anymore, but it's like, I guarantee you the influence is there. But yeah, it's hard to imagine like a band like real estate

getting that popular. I was just going to say, it's interesting you bring up the MacDamako, MacDamako in the context of real estate because I think the difference between real estate and MacDamako musically very similar, MacDamako does have that cult of personality

to him. And, you know, it'd be like if Martin Courtney, who's the lead singer of real estate, if he were like way more sort of vulgar and outrageous, you know, while still making these very pretty pleasant pop songs, you know, then you'd be Mac DeMarco. You know, and I think that, as much as anything, I mean, I think Macdemarco, I mean, this is another thing where you and I disagree. I think he is a good songwriter. I think his antics sometimes are a little distracting. And it feels like a little incongruous with his music, which I think is like pretty, pretty. sentimental and straightforward and he has this very... I think that's what makes it work.

Right, absolutely. Well, the next record we're going to talk about was your number one album of 2011, I believe. Indeed, it's Tyler the Creator's Goblin. Nah, I'm playing. Actually, no, I think that I was like, I think I threw that at number 10 for some reason. But anyway, yeah, so as far as my number one, it was kind of a 1A, 1B sort of thing between this album and Drake's Take Care and I won't get into the story

about why that is, maybe next week. But this one is M83's Hurry Up We're Dreaming. I think there's going to be a tremendous 10-year anniversary cottage industry propping up around this one. And I really look forward to seeing people

who were like teenagers when this album came out right about it. M83 is a band that there are very few bands that embody everything I love about various genres of music more than M83. You know, they have that like hyperactive electronic sound, but like also very kind of shoegazy, but also they're like the enormous smashing pumpkins fans. And with their previous albums, the reason this album stands out as interesting to me is not just

because I think it's an incredible record, one of the last of its kind. but it's you know for someone like Anthony Gonzalez who's so obsessed with 90s like bands you know in the 90s you would get situations where a band would make several records you know

stoke up some hype maybe go from a major or from an indie label to a major and then like get a hit on MTV maybe four or five albums into their career and just blow up and with Midnight City obviously that happened

with them. They had a few albums that were really well received. Like, they would be the kind of band that would play a festival, you know, not close to a headliner, but like, you'd be excited to see them. And their albums would get reviewed really well, but never be, like, the number one. And then Midnight City drops, and M83 becomes a superstar act. And I just cannot think of too many other artists for whom. that happened and like the situation of

seeing like a band that you know you liked all of a sudden become liked by Normies like Midnight City has 589 million plays on Spotify weight has has 189 million and everything else is in like the third it's like the middle with Jimmy E. World like that's

kind of what Midnight City is to them that song holds up I we have like dance parties at my house for my kids who are eight and four and I'll occasionally drop in an indie rock favorite just to see if they like it. And most of the time they don't. But Midnight City, like, killed with them. Is that the best indie pop song of the 2010s? It's hard for me to think of, like, a better song than that.

Yeah. If you're going to factor in impact along with quality, I feel like that song really, I don't it's hard for me to think of like a better song than that from like the yeah and i'm saying indie pop i'm not even saying indie rock i'm going to make a distinction there yeah more to the pop side but i maybe you could say indie rock too i mean that's definitely in the conversation i think for for best uh songs uh in the indie sphere of that decade and you know it's interesting listening to that song too because you hear other things that were big in 2011 you have the uh the the the the uh the saxophone solo at the end, which is also reminiscent of like destroyers kaput,

which I don't think we're going to be talking about in these episodes, unfortunately. That's a great record. It's also reminiscent of like the record I'm going to talk about after this in terms of incorporating like a soft rock aesthetic into indie music. I think M83 was a part of that as well. I mean, I think that album overall, you know, you could say this about a lot of double albums that the idea of it is more appealing than it is as a listening experience. I feel like there's a lot of songs on there that feel like filler to me.

But the peaks are unbelievable. And it's a record that I have a lot of affection for. Like, I really love it. And, you know, you and I are on a similar page here. We both like excessive records. So it's one of those things where you come to appreciate the excess. But, you know, it is an album that I will skip a fair amount. of tracks, unless I'm

like into like the M83 experience. If I'm going to like lock in, I remember when I was in L.A. five, six years ago driving on the sunset strip towards the ocean and this was the album I listened to as the sun went down because it was like, I want to listen to

M83 while doing this drive. The album I'm going to talk about and like I said, I feel like this is somewhat linked in some respects aesthetically to the M83 record. and some of the other big albums of 2011. It's Bunny Vair by Bunny Vair.

And this is an album, this was the number one album for Pitchfork that year. And it was, I think, generally considered to be like the big indie rock record of 2011. This was the record that pushed Bunny Vair to Best New Artist status at the Grammys, which they won that in early 2012. but it was for this album that it put them like, I guess, on the Grammy's map. Obviously, Bunny Bear had an album before this. But it's interesting with this record because over time, I had somehow talked myself into thinking that this was my least favorite Bunny Bear album.

And after revisiting it this week, I realized I was completely wrong about that. I mean, this is like, I think, it's one of those records that I feel like there's probably still a lot of affection for it out there because Bunny Bear, is one of those artists that was able to transcend something that we've talked a lot on this show about that generation of like Otts era indie stars who weren't really able to make it into the next decade. And Bunny Vair is an exception to that. I would say, you know, he's as popular and influential now as he's ever been. I mean, last time I saw him, he was playing a sold-out arena.

And, you know, he still, I feel like, is one of those artists that, like, if he puts out a new record, it's going to get a lot of coverage and a lot of excitement and people are going to be into it. But I don't know. I've had this weird phase lately where I'm listening to a lot of boomer rock records from the late 80s on cassette. Like I've been collecting cassettes.

So like, you know, Paul Simon Graceland, the Robbie Robertson, Daniel Lanhua record, you know, some Hornsby, things like that. And listening to it on cassette. So it's like a little warped sound. So I think I was just set up to like really reconnect with this album because this album has that aesthetic to it. It sounds like boomer rock from the 80s that's been warped in sort of an arty kind of way. And that ended up, I think, being a big influence on indie music in the 2011s.

I mean, if you listen to songs like Beth Rest and Holocene and Perth, I hear a lot of indie artists who are aspiring to like what he's doing on that record. So yeah, I don't know. Like, have you heard this album lately? I mean, I was actually kind of blown away revisiting it. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I mean, it was, I've been, I've kind of checked out on Bonnie Vair's stuff in time since. Like, it's almost like you were saying about Black Middy where it's like, yeah, I can appreciate it. Do I want to listen to it?

Not really. But here's the interesting thing about this particular record. The names escape me and I'm not going to like air out their business. But if you look kind of like, if you look underneath the surface of like what's covered by big publications. There's like this layer of like kind of popular bands that sound exactly like Boni Vair, Boni Vair from 2011. Like you'll find like I'm starting to hear songs that like bands that just kind of rip that off like that's their thing in the same way like people might rip off Midnight City and that's their thing or the way people like I'm already hearing like

bands that take like individual 1975 songs and just do that like it's not living if it's not with you. And, you know, I like this album when it came out. I love how there's like a militaristic sort of sound to like Perth. I love like the double kick drums. And I think the production just is so soupy and wafty. And sometimes like the vocals just drive me out of my goddamn mind. But it's a very unique record. Like it's it's just kind of unbelievable to see the trajectory of him going from forever for Emma forever ago to this. And then to, to, what he's done afterwards. And you're right. Like, it's so difficult to navigate, you know, going from indie folk sensation to, like, someone who's on Kanye West Records or someone who's, like,

really fully embraced by, you know, the hip hop and pop and R&B community. I mean, and I also think that he's going to be the type person who, you know, 10 years from now when, like, the next generation of, like, indie kids are coming up. Like, this is going to be a formative. listen for people who are 16 years old. This is going to be what, I don't know, pavement or whatever was, where something just exists as an idea of like, yeah, this is what indie sounds like. This is going to be one of those albums. Yeah, it's interesting.

I mean, I feel like his greatest achievement was that he was able to reinvent the singer-songwriter record where it wasn't just about being a guy with a guitar, which is what superficially his first record is. Because what he did with vocals, in lyrics and really turning the vocals into another form of music where it's not about the lyrics. Usually with singer-songwriters, it's about parsing the lyrics and connecting it to their personal narrative. I don't know what the fuck he's singing about. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was his genius. And also, I think he was able to do something. I often compare him to like someone like Frank Ocean where their achievement is that they can have that, again,

that cult of personality where people put on. lot on them just as people, but they take themselves out of the star system in a very deliberate and conscious way. Like, no one really knows what Frank Ocean is doing until he just reappears and does something. And Justin Verdon has a very similar approach. And it's, it is that idea that, like, you, you whisper so you make people lean in to you. You know, that idea that, like, I, I'm pretending, well, it's not pretending. I mean, I think there's a genuine sort of aversion to publicity with both of the,

those artists, but the way that they go about it, it actually generates more mystique for them and help propel them forward, I think, in a pretty impressive way. And I think that's also contributed to him sticking around, along with him just making great records. The record you're going to talk about next is a very Ian Cohen choice. It's kind of the opposite of, like, the ones that we've talked about thus far. Like, this one, Joyce Manor's self-titled debut, you can listen, it's like, you can listen to this album, like, I think, like, four times in the time it takes to listen to hurry

Upward Dreaming. But, you know, I'll have more to say about this record, hint, hint in the future. But, you know, with this album, I bring it up, A, because it's, you know, an incredible record. But when I look back, like, it's easy to talk about something like, you know, Boni Bear or Hurry Up We're Dreaming or Days in the context of like, well, what was the critical conversation around this? Like, and it's very easy to, you know, assess that. It's all there on the Internet. It hasn't disappeared. But Joyce Manor, and I think this is true of so much stuff that surrounded it in 2011,

like stuff from the punk, hardcore, emo world. I've written a lot about this stuff in retrospect, and it's almost impossible to find actual interviews or reviews, because either they weren't happening or be they were on websites that have just like disappeared from the internet, like broken message boards. And I think that like with, when I look back on this record, I mean, it, it was on 61, 31, 31 records, which for the most part, like, dealt in like pretty, you know, hardcore, hardcore. But, you know, looking at now, it's like, I think about this record and I wonder, like, what is the Joyce manner of 2021? Like, what are the things that we as, you know, 40-something critics are just, like, completely missing out on that the Tumblr can.

kids are super into and will be, you know, seen as canon 10 years from that, but we're just missing out on. Because, I mean, this is like the first album that I can think of that people like associate with Tumblr that is quoting it on Tumblr, like using GIFs from the live show, quoting constant headache. And, you know, I think that it's, it's just fascinating to think about all the albums that people missed out on in the conversation. Like one of this person, Michael Brooks, who I talked to on Twitter a lot, he was like, just listened to Joyce Manor for the first time. And he was like, yeah, I kind of missed this in 2011.

You know, I was listening to Kurt Vile. And, you know, I think that was true in a lot of ways. Like, you know, Tushé and Morey released an incredible record that year. That was the first year. The Wonder Years broke out. Thursday released an album that was produced by Dave Fridman. and it still like mostly got overlooked. And so if you're an IndyCats listener, like looking for like this node of music that can still sound fresh,

2011 is really, you know, really an untapped resource for a lot of stuff from the hardcore world, from the punk world, from the emo world. And I think 2011, you know, like I was saying earlier, I feel like that was maybe the last year before social media really started to take over. music writing and media in general, like where, like if you weren't on Twitter, I think it was still possible not to be on Twitter maybe in 2011. So you weren't attuned to all these different conversations that happen around music outside of the narratives of the music media. And I think once that ended, then it made it a lot harder to ignore a record like this,

Joyce Minor record, which is a great record. But it didn't really fit with like whatever music magazines or websites thought was important. in 2011. I mean, the downside of that is that everything is diluted now and it's hard to really lift anything up. So, like, there's more parody, but there's less,

again, like stratification. I think more people would have known about Joyce Manor in 2011 if social media were a bigger thing or if more music critics were on social media. Certainly, I think younger people were probably talking about this amongst themselves in 2011. I mean, to answer your question about,

like, what is the Joyce manner of 2021? or what's the record that's going to get ignored by critics and then be seen as important later on, I assume that it'll either be like a hyperpop record or like a K-pop record, you know, which are two huge genres that still don't get written about a whole lot. And look, I don't think either one of us are the people to talk about that. I mean, but I want to see people who are of that scene write about it and talk about it so I can maybe learn a thing or two and then I'll keep my mouth shut and let them talk about it. But, you know, I think those genres, if I were just to guess, I would, I feel like there's probably a ton of stuff that still is below the surface.

Like we talk about, you know, 100 gecks or we talk about like BTS, but that's pretty much it. You know, and there's lots of other things going on, I'm sure that gets ignored. So, yeah, that's always fun to discover later on. The record I want to talk about next is an album that did get written about in 2011. and I feel like has maybe been lost to time a little bit because this band fell off the launch pad a little bit after this record. It was their debut album. It's called The Big Roar.

It's a band called The Joy Formidable. And hopefully people out there just did what Ian said where he gave like a recognized, like I recognize this, yes, and I have positive memories of them. I think that there's a lot of people that enjoyed this band. I think that enjoyed this record. I've heard people argue that their song Wurring is one of the best. Oh, God, that's such a good song.

Rock songs of the 2010s. And yet, I feel like the most lasting legacy of that song is that it was sampled in a lonely island track. What? You know, I did not know that. Yeah, I'm trying to remember which one it was. I think it was the one with Adam Levine on it, of all things. And I can't remember the name of the song. But, yeah, they sampled Waring.

And, you know, the joy formidable, They're a Welsh band, they're a power trio. They're still active. They put out an album called Arth, A-A-R-T-H in 2018, which I was not aware of until I just looked it up before this episode. But, yeah, I mean, it feels like the big roar, like, was their moment. A lot of people love this record. Again, Waring was a hit.

There's, like, some other great songs on that record. Again, just like a really heavy, melodic, a little bit shoegazey, a little bit indie rock. band, but also had like a real pop sense, and they had like a great front woman. Ritzie, Ritzie Brian, yes. And I shouldn't say that in the past tense because this is still an active band, so I'm sure she's still a great, great front woman,

but just a really great band, and this was a great record, and it's one of those albums that I remember hearing and thinking, like, oh, this band, their second record's going to be great. Yes. They're going to be on their way. And like it is with a lot of bands,

like their second album wasn't, that great and they didn't produce another song like Wurring and they I think they've settled into like maybe a cult status but I don't know they're like one of the big what if stories for me yeah of 2011 like this is a band that like I kind of wish would have been able to blow up more than they ended up blowing up yeah I mean with this band like whirring is such a good song like it is it it it it just towers and they have a couple other good songs this latter is ours is another really great song. But yeah, it's like I wonder perhaps if, you know, they had more of like a narrative thrust. If they existed maybe in 2018, they might have like a different angle. But also what I love

what I love about this band or, you know, I regret the fact that they've never really put it together. But I think that they remind me of so many bands from like the 90s where I'd like see, I'd buy the by the album or buy the CD. and maybe send it back to the UCD store because they never had like, you know, more than two good songs. Or in the alternative, because I had spent $17 on it, I would like give it way more attention and like really try to dig in and, you know, 15 years later say, you know what?

Like, I don't know, this Sponge album really has a lot more bangers than you might remember. And like not to compare it because like Sponge had like actual hits. But yeah, I think that this band was just, they were either ahead of their time or behind the times. And, uh, you're, they, they just had such an opportunity to be

this anachronistic big rock festival band. And they were, but not to the degree, like, I always hear them as like a bit of a missed opportunity, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's possible that they're more popular than some bands.

Yeah. That we've talked about already. But I, I feel like they got put into that, like, radio rock world where the stakes are just different. The expectations are different. It seemed like they were being primed, you know,

to have hits on like X-107, The Rock in your town, you know, where instead of being encouraged to maybe go in a more adventurous direction, which I think would have suited them better, you know, because I think they did have these great big hooks and they had a really shiny sound, but maybe if they could have gotten in with like a producer that could have done some things with them sonically

to take them in a different direction. Maybe things would have ended up differently. I mean, again, this is still an active band. Maybe they're going to put out a great record in 2021. Yeah, prove us wrong. I love it. I would love to see this band. And again, when I saw them live, I thought they were fantastic.

I'm sure they're still a great live band. So, you know, any joy formidable heads out there, you know, right in. Tell us if you've seen them lately, you know, I'm hoping that we can, you know, wave the flag for them again. on this show. But you you kind of have a similar album in this regard like another big sounding rock band

that like seems stuck in 2011. Yeah. So if you if you follow me on Twitter if you follow Steve on Twitter you know that like we've you know bandied about the Wu Life album quite a few times. And this oh this is 2011 to me

because on it ties together so many things that seem antiquated now like first of which is like the mysterious anonymous band. They did just like kind of like, who are these guys? They wouldn't reveal their faces. They messed around with the British press a lot. They also have that, you know, British, this band is changing rock and roll sort of vibe

to them. And that all kind of came together with this record, which is maybe one of the last of the out of nowhere hyped indie rock bands at the time. because I think when we talk about 2011 as the beginning of the 2010s with the debuts from Frank Ocean, Kendra Kumar, James Blake, etc. It's also the end of the 2000s as well where you have bands like this one. And I think about Wu Life in terms of like Yuck and Youth Lagoon, both of whom released debut albums in 2011, which I love. And all three of them, at least the front person from that band, completely turned their back. like they just wrote that album out of history with woo life i think people kind of assumed that

they were going to either like go the distance or just break up immediately and they definitely broke up immediately this album i'll tell you what like i've kind of jokingly called it like emo covert ops because it you know the vocals are like really kind of grading in a way that i love and most people don't uh it's got this big boomy like almost apple seed cast type type of production and, you know, the call and response vocals, it sounds sort of like Sunday day real estate, but it's just in a way, like, really cool in terms of its presentation, but it's also like seriously like earnest and uncool. And it just, it's, and also their kind of emo covert ops because all the great bands break up after like a year or two.

But with this one, you know, I was just so shocked to see it come in at like number one. on pitchforks 200 best albums of the 2010s list. Yeah, was that you? That was not me. Dude, I don't even know if I, like, voted for it that high. There was some people who came in, like, repping Wu Life way harder than I did. I did not do the blur.

That's a shock. I know. The Woo Life Hive. It's like the band is mysterious, and, like, the Woo Life Hive is also mysterious. Yeah. Everyone is wearing a mask. Yeah, I mean, the thing with this band, too,

is that, like, when I hear this record, It reminds me of albums, like, in a way of, like, funeral or, like, the broken social scene record. Like, these big sounding indie records that were really helped by being endorsed by pitchfork. Yeah. And Woo Life, I think, obviously, again, there's the Wu Life Hive out there. But they never really took off in the same way those other bands did. Of course, like you said, they broke up, so that didn't help things. But I wonder, too, like, if this was around the time, like, where, like, the people,

pitchfork endorsement was no longer going to be the, you know, golden ticket for you know, that that shift again that I was talking about earlier from music media to social media, which to me really begins around this time. I guess I referenced channel Orange. That was in 2012. But I think the seeds of that were beginning in 2011 where getting a real wave of enthusiasm on social media, I think, started to matter more than getting a really good review from anybody. You know, that you could

get a great review from a music website, but if the enthusiasm wasn't there on social media, that band wasn't going to go anywhere. Whereas a record could get a ho-hum review, and if people were excited about it, that record was still good. That record was going to do great.

I mean, I feel like that transition is in the air. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And speaking of Wu Life, this is my favorite story about them. Like I remember seeing them at Coachella. They performed in like, it was 2011,

I guess it must have been. And I just remember like it was 100 degrees. And I would see this guy walking around Coachella with like this denim jacket with Wu life on the back. And it was definitely the guy from Wu Life. Like it was totally, he was wearing his Wu Life jacket in like 100 degree heat throughout the entire weekend.

just walking around the grounds. Like, that's, that, that is my woo life. But actually, you know what? The guy went on to make an album under, or two, under the name, Love Under Heaven. There's some really good songs on that one. But I think in, uh, in a way, it's just like, dude, like, it's just, it's woo life, but not woo life. And I think they, you know, got political and all that.

And they tried to, I guess, arrange themselves around, you know, narratives of like 2016, 2018 or whatever. and I don't know. Like I just love these like in the same way like M83 was like a 90s throwback in terms of like the one huge hit from an established indie band

like this is more like a hype band that actually lived up to the hype and then broke up. Like I think the Wu life life cycle was exactly what it was supposed to be which is why. The Wu Life Life cycle. Yeah which is why I love it. Which is why I think we can talk about it.

So fine. If there was like a second or third Woo Life album, you know, perhaps it wouldn't be as fun to talk about them as it is now. But, you know, shout out to that. Go Tell Fire to the Mountain. There's a song called Wee Bros. I mean, what more could you pot? Like, an earnest dudes rock from Woo Life. I just love Ian. You are Woo Life for Life. That's right, man. You are flying the flag. And, you know, we're coming to the end of our episode here. And what happens is. is what I thought would happen is that we're running out of time. We don't have really any time for our recommendation corner segment. Do you just like want to briefly shout out what you were going to recommend? Yeah, actually, you know, the thing that brought us around to talking about 2011 were the albums from bands that really made hay in that year. And one of them is Antlers.

I never thought they'd make another record because after Familiar's in 2014, Pete Silverman, the lead singer, like he had like really crippling tinnitus and couldn't tour and just basically moved to upstate New York, thought he was going to leave music behind forever. And then Antlers, from green to gold, it's actually a record that stands up with anything they've released in their career. Like Antlers, one of the most underrated and consistent and interesting bands. They're back with a record that I could highly recommend.

It's almost like Hyden Rock. It's very Sunday morning chill. Oh, man. Yeah. Oh, Sunday morning chill, Hyden Rock. I love it. There is. I'm just going to recommend something that I did.

I wrote a piece this week on the 25th anniversary of Stone Temple Pilots, Tiny Music, Songs from the Gallery. Oh, yes. Talked it up. It was published on Thursday. There's some input from the DeLeo Brothers in there. One of my favorite records of the 90s. I also wrote a lot about albums of 1996, that being a year of albums from like the death throes of alternative. Oh, man.

Albums that, in a way, sort of comment on the collapse of alt rock. and tiny music I think is one of the best examples of that. So please check that out. Yes, I'm glad you're excited about that. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends and more talk about 2011 albums next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations,

sign up for the Indie Mix Taped Newsletter. You can go to Uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email. box.