Indiecast - Let's Revisit 2011, Part 2

Episode Date: April 2, 2021

On last week’s episode, Steven and Ian reflected on the year-end lists they made in 2011. They spent time discussing albums like Real Estate’s Days and M83’s Hurry Up, We’re Dreaming, albums that were very highly regarded at the time.This week, they are using the benefit of hindsight to revise those lists and name the albums that might have flown under the critical radar in 2011, but we can acknowledge today to have been very influential. For Steven, these are albums like The War On Drugs’ Slave Ambient and Wye Oak’s Civilian, while Cold Cave’s Cherish The Light Years and Drake’s Take Care still reign supreme in Ian's mind.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steven is plugging Course In Fable, the new album from Ryley Walker that’s out today. Ian, on the other hand, is digging through some obscure recent uploads on Bandcamp to showcase some new names like Get Well, Kid and Twinkle Park.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we continue our look back at the notable albums of 2011. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? I think, you know, we're of a pretty similar age, so I imagine you remember that a commercial on TV for the Army that, you know, we do more before 9 a.m.

the most people do all day. And, you know, I thought of that because here I am. It's 7 o'clock on the West Coast. And I'm trying to do like this 500 pound mental deadlift attempting to link Little Nas X, you know, human blood shoes, my bloody Valentine and white boy summer all into the same gag. Like it's, you know, it's like those Olympic, it's like those Olympic deadlifters that like you find on like YouTube where it's like, they're just lifting.

their body collapses. Like, this is just too much content for me to handle at this early in the morning, you know? That's true. I mean, I feel like it's good that we're pointing this out because I think people, they see content producers and they think, oh, it's so easy. No. And it's good to remind people that this is hard work, coming up with content, for the music criticism enthusiasts out there.

You know, it's hard to link these things. So did you come up with a bit? No, no, I didn't. I was kind of hoping you would like do the alley-oop here. But I think it's more that like, it's not hard coming up with content because like what happens is like some days, you know, you and I would be thinking like, man, the banter bin is just empty. And then all of a sudden we just get hit with something or other, you know, we're just like kind

of just, we're just like waiting in the corner to be fed gruel, like, you know, some cruel, some cruel Dickensian existence. So there, there we go. There. Once again, the, the intro of. of Indycast has just become a meditation on the pointlessness of modern life. So, yes, now I've found my center now. Now we can continue with the episode.

I feel like this opening is always very meta. It's always us, like, sort of like stepping outside of ourselves and saying, okay, what is the content we're going to produce for the music criticism enthusiast out there? And we're kind of letting people in to our process, which I hope people enjoy. It's sort of like a Schenectady, New York type vibe to this show. But, yeah, you mentioned the Lil Nasak's video. That was the big controversy this week. And if you haven't seen the video, it's crazy.

It's a bonkers video. It ends with Lil Nasax, giving Satan a lap dance. And then he snaps Satan's neck like they did in 80s action movies. He's like Schwarzenegger and Commando, like how he just snaps people's necks all the time. And then he becomes the devil, I think. Like he puts on the devil's horns at the end? Yeah. Is that the thing?

I think Lil Nas X is someone who, we've had so many conversations about, you know, separating art from the artist or what have you. And what I love about Lil Nasax is, you know, everything you said about this video is true. And I've not heard the song yet. I've only seen the video through like screen caps and so forth. But like with that and like Old Town Road as well, like I am just such a huge fan of Lil Nas' ex-existence. And he doesn't even have to make music. Like I could probably go my entire like, and most people would say like, yeah, Montero, the song itself, you know, I could take it or leave it.

But the fact that like we're watching like a master at internet manipulation. Like he, you know, he grew up on like Twitter. He was one of the barbs, which is Nikki Minaj, his fan base. Like, this is just someone who is so advanced as far as being able to use various forms of social media to, you know, his advantage. And, like, it's an example because, like, a lot of, you know, right-wing activists are going at him, like, from all that. And, like, he's winning every single time. Like, the guy easily defeated the mayor, not the mayor, the governor of South Dakota. Like, like, we were just witnessing Michael Jordan in his prime.

It's fascinating to me that, like, people on the mayor. right still feel the need to play act outrage over provocative pop music they're bored man they're bored like we are yeah well because I feel like there was a period like where you know I feel like everyone kind of got over this and it was like okay well you know Madonna put out the sex book or like a prayer yeah that maybe that was the pinnacle of this but then it was like okay you know how much mileage can we get out of these outrages over pop music, you know,

haven't we already, like, gone as provocative as we can get? And it seems like in recent years, you have, you know, the Cardi B and Megan the Stalin thing with Wap. That was, like, a big deal. And now people are getting upset about this because a lot of kids loved Old Town Road.

And I could say for a fact that my kids, who are eight and four, they loved that song, Old Town Road. Like, they were obsessed with that song. I don't know if they're even familiar with this, video yet. I haven't had a conversation with my wife yet about whether we want our kid to see Little Nazex give Satan a lap dance. I don't know. I mean, I feel like when I was a kid, I saw terrible things. I saw, you know, the Hot for Teacher video, like, when I was around my kid's age.

That's probably as, like, smutty as the Little Nas X video. I don't know. It definitely is not, man. Like, Hot for Teacher. Probably not. Hot for Teacher is, like, kind of a more, like, 80s like, you know, sex comedy, like dudes rock sort of vibe. Whereas, I mean, like, well, but it's like a woman stripping in front of like a classroom full of children, you know? You know, for the time, that was like pretty edgy, I think. Yeah. You know, it's like all these like 10 year olds and this woman is like in a bikini, like on a stripper runway. It was more like animal house or whatever, you know, like something along those lines. Whereas something like, you know, Montaro is, you know, gets to the whole, First off, you have a, you know, a gay black man, you know, very out in both regards.

And he's giving Satan a lap dance. I mean, like, that is just even more so than, like, you know, Cardi B. and Megan Neastalian, like, you could just not package a better, you know, a better piece of content for, like, the right wing, you know, machinery. So, I mean, like. But he does kill the devil at the end. He does snap his neck. Yeah. So can't that, but then he becomes the devil?

Yeah. Much to consider. Yeah, I don't know. That's another thing, though. I feel like Satan had a dormant period where no one cared about Satan. Yeah. You weren't hearing any time. Because I remember when I was growing up, again, like in the 80s, that was the peak of, you know, sort of Satanism.

Tipper gore. Yeah. They were like, you know, there was this idea of like satanic cults existing everywhere. That was the, that was the cue anon of its. day. It was like this conspiracy of Satan worshippers in suburbia. And then people got over that. You never heard about Satan anymore. And now it's like, oh, is Lil Nas bringing back Satan? Is Satan going to be a thing? Yeah, man. Which would be great. I would love more bands to be singing about Satan again. That's the

nostalgia we need. I think more Satan bands would be phenomenal. You know, since we're talking about outrage here, I feel like we should talk about an example of like outrage that didn't happen this week. Huh. And I think it's maybe because the band isn't that popular. But did you read the Ice Age interview that Pitchfork did this week? Yeah, I mean, I saw it. And, you know, like you were mentioning about maybe outrage exhaustion or what have you.

Like this is the sort of interview that I would say even in 2019, like pre-COVID, this would have been like Twitter main character. Like this is the main character and music writer Twitter for the day. Should we just say quick like what was in the interview? Because the Ice Age, you know, they're a band. Where are they from? They're from Denmark. They're from Denmark.

They're from Denmark. And career, they were accused of, you know, utilizing like fascist imagery. There were like questions about like whether they were racist. Although I feel like that was put to the side. pretty quickly, and they went on to become, like, this very critically acclaimed band. But in this interview, which is tied to the release of their new record, which is called Seek Shelter, I think. It is called Seek Shelter.

Yes, you have done your homework on this band. I have done my homework, and the writer of the piece, Madison Bloom, brought up these things again. And she also brought up some things that, like, I didn't know. Like, apparently, at Ice Age, they curated a festival in the early 2010, a music festival. And one of the bands on the act was called white N-word. Yeah. Although they didn't say N-word, they used the actual word. And apparently this is a band that, like, it was like, I believe that they were,

they were white people in the band. And they would go on stage wearing blackface. Huh. Yeah, which, uh. Well, also, I don't think they, they hadn't played a show before, I think, before this one. I think that was what they were saying. Okay. So, but like, but they were still called white, n-word.

Like they knew that. So maybe that was a tip off to what was going to be going on here. And maybe, I don't know, are they a good band? I've never heard their music. I feel like the... I'm not going to go search it out. Yeah, exactly. When you call White N-word, I feel like, okay, you know, because people talked about how,

oh, I don't like the name Diarrhea Planet. You know, like, that's a turnoff for me. And I'm like, well, I still like that band, but like White N-word, like, yeah, okay, yeah, that is a non-starter for me. But anyway, you know, the lead singer of the band of Ice Age was. was asked about this in the interview. And I tweeted about it because I thought it was a good piece. And again, Madison Bloom, I thought, did a good job with it.

But yeah, no one really cared about this story. And I just wonder, like, is it outrage, exhaustion? Or is Ice Age, who is a very critically kind band? But they don't really have a big audience. They don't really seem all that popular commercially. Are they? I mean, I don't know. I'm mystified by this band.

I think you and I agree that we find this band to be really boring. I don't understand the critical love of this band. We'll get to that when the album comes out. But I mean, if you want to gauge their level of popularity, when their last album, Beyondless came out in 2018, they toured the U.S. They were, I think, a co-headliner or maybe a subco-headliner with, like, the black lips.

Like, that was 2019. So that gives an indication of, like, IRL popularity. But with this one, it was like, here's the thing, man. like when there's a there's this trend not a trend so much but a tendency for people who want to I guess go against the grain and like talk about like why this critically acclaimed band that they you know that everyone likes actually isn't good and they kind of backdoor it by bringing up like soft cancellation sort of things like oh this person toured with this problematic band or they were a dick to me in person during an interview and I think that there's like

maybe some reaching going on with this stuff with Ice Age. Look, I don't think they're fascist. I think the issue is when you play like they did in the beginning, this kind of severe militaristic post-punk, you're gonna kind of sort of bring in some of those tendencies. Because I mean, like, Joy Division. Just think about the roots of that band's name. It just seemed like teenage Edge Lord stuff they've clearly grown out of.

But like, if I'm going to tell you that Ice Age is a whack band, I'm not going to bring up the cancellation bit. I'm going to bring up the fact I think they're a whack band. And, you know, that's it. Like, I am going to stand on that hill and die on it. Yeah, and I agree with you. And I never personally want to be leading the charge of, like, digging up stuff from 10 years ago in order to hurt a band's career. I mean, I do think that in this case, it was legitimate to.

Yeah, and good for this interview to do it. Like, they didn't drop it after, like, one question. It wasn't like that scene on Succession where Tom interviews the Nazi they have working at the news network. Madison Bloom really pressed Elias on this, you know? I guess I just wonder about the consistency with this sort of thing, because I do feel like sometimes there are artists that for whatever reason are in the good graces of the music press, and they don't get pressed on this as much as maybe someone else who is not in the good graces of the music press. And like I can imagine artists where if there was a new story that said that they booked a band called White Endward, that that would maybe be blown up more by music websites.

You know, I mean, again, like I brought this up in our Lana Del Rey episode. Sometimes I like to play this game called like, what if Father John Misty did this? Like, what if Father John Misty? It came out that like he booked a festival in 2011 with a band called White Enward. that performed in Blackface. I mean, and he's way more popular than Ice Age. So it's not a really fair comparison. But I just feel like he's someone that has annoyed music critics.

I feel like he's an example of someone that I think people would be sort of chomping at the bit to have something like this reported. Whereas Ice Age is like a smaller band that like critics really love. And I mean, again, Pitchfork brought this up and they pressed him on it. So I mean, I don't think that they're obviously not trying to bury this. or anything. But I don't know. It's just interesting to me.

Like, I feel like sometimes this matters more depending on how people already feel about an artist. And moreover, this stuff, like, in the beginning, particularly in 2011, like, I think they did use some, like, you know, swastikas or Nazi iconography, like, really early on. This stuff is not, like, there's some stuff that's been on the books since 2011 or whatever. And, yeah, I mean, it's, I don't know. interested in having a discussion of like ice age you know being a band that i find mystifyingly boring rather than them being you know a band of teenage edge lords because i mean like

look i've listened to a ton of bands who have done like who have in some way shape form or fashion have like utilized some problematic iconography um and you know to be a post punk band like operating particularly in scandinavia it always has that like aura of i don't know i don't Like, you know, similar to like how when death heaven was first coming out, like people thought that George, like some, like his arm gestures, he was trying to emulate like Dio or like Freddie Mercury and people thought, oh, you know, he's doing a SIG Hale or whatever because they're playing, you know, a black, like, you know, black metal type thing. And he also had that haircut. Yeah, yeah. And they're, they're very good looking guys as well. You get into trouble.

Yeah. I just feel like, I feel like 2011 or 2010 whenever it was. It's a little late to be doing swastikas. I feel like, or having a band in Blackface, I feel like that's not that, you know, we're not talking about like 1990 or something. I mean, this was like only 10 years ago. Yeah, it's like not even provocative anymore. It's like, I feel like, I feel like 10 years ago that was still pretty offensive.

It's just that we didn't really have the means maybe to disseminate this information or to consolidate people, like, mobs or whatever. But I'm like, man, it's like, really like you were doing that then? That seems pretty late. Yeah. I mean, like, don't get me, it's still extremely offensive, but, like, I can understand, like, how some bands would do it because they think it's, like, subversive or provide. And it's, like, not even creatively offensive. I want to clarify that point. Like, it would be still offensive if you were to do it today. Like, and it's always been offensive. It's more just that, like, I don't know, you got to, I think you got to dig a little bit deeper. Well, let's move on to our mailbag segment. How's that for a segue? That was very smooth. Yeah. We do have to do a segment sometime on like the fascist haircut.

And just say like if you're a publicist, tell your bands don't have the fascist haircut. Yeah. Because I think people will project. Tom York tried to tell us it. He tried to tell us in Karma Police, you know, with this line about a Hitler haircut. That's right. All right. So mailbag segment, this question comes from Kyle in Madison, Wisconsin.

Thank you, Kyle. Do I feel like 90% of the time like our mailbag is from someone named Kyle in Wisconsin? I don't know. Well, it's Wisconsin and Canada. Yes. Upper North, Upper Midwest, which is my part of the world. So, you know, maybe they just, you know, they feel the winteriness of this podcast or something. Hello, Stephen and Ian.

Wanted to toss a question your way. I've been thinking a lot about the lo-fi and bedroom pop boom from about 2015 and where it's at now, namely the likes of Alex G Frankie Cosmos Eskimo Did I pronounce that correctly? I've never actually said that all right Yeah she

They actually go by O now They changed their name quite a few times Porches Gabby's World Girlpool Elvis depressantly Teen Suicide etc etc And then this is a parenthetical Am I crazy for thinking

Carcy headrest and Mitzki Are removed from this Carcy Headrest didn't really come up in this scene It wasn't touring until Matador times Mitzki pivoted out of Lofi and got involved with the suits pretty quickly

yes, I would agree. Yeah, they're not in this wave. No, and yeah, for reasons we'll talk about later, but just the fact that they're huge stars, I think, also. It includes them from this. We're five years removed from this boom, and I was wondering if you look back fondly on that era. It seems like Alex G was the real winner of that world in terms of staying power and critical acclaim. Do you agree? And if so, why do you think that is?

My assertion is that his songwriting seems the most timeless. He's left enough mystique. he's been touring hard and strategically, like he'll do a headline run, followed by Old Head Indy Support Slot. Old Head Indy Support Slot. I like that. Overall, I think we got a lot of great songwriters from that universe, but there was also a lot of drama.

And I think a lot of them had a moment that got passed by the Zekeist by major release two or three. Thanks for the excellent show, guys. Always looking forward to it. And that's Kyle from Madison. I feel like Kyle answered his own question a lot in this, because he's a lot in this. Kyle, very good question, by the way. Yeah.

But, yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that Alex G is the most well-known person out of this scene. I think that's justified. I think, as Kyle suggests, I think he's the best songwriter. It does make me laugh. I was thinking about that male manipulator tick-knit video where Alex G is listed first above, like, Radiohead and the Smiths and neutral... Mac to Marco.

And, yeah. Yeah, it was like, wow, which, you know, backhanded praise. I guess, but that speaks to his prominence. It's funny, like, Kyle mentioned mystique with Alex G. Actually, I've interviewed Alex G a couple times. And my impression of him, and this isn't a dig, I thought he was like a really nice guy, but he just seemed like a total dude to me. You know what I mean?

Like, he didn't have a facade of any, he wasn't projecting any kind of mystique to me. He didn't seem especially introspective about his process. He just seemed like a guy in a trucker hat who writes good. jams. And, you know, so I don't know, like, does he have mystique? Do people look at him as this sort of interesting guy? I mean, I guess that comes from his music more than who he is as a person. Yeah, I think that he has like a bit, I mean, first off, you know, he, you know, collaborates

with Frank Ocean. He's, you know, on Domino Records. So I think he has a bit of a mystique because, like, he does do, like, a one, you know, like a singer-songwriter, but his lyrics tend to be more obtuse. oftentimes buries his vocals. Like, he's been compared, like, to, I don't know, like an Elliot Smith, but like Elliot Smith, you knew exactly what the lyrics were about. Like, it was very, very confessional and forthcoming.

Whereas Alex G., like, he, he's a bit more inscrutable. So I do get that sense of mystique. And moreover, like, he doesn't really like to do a heck of a lot of press. Like I've, you know, like you said, he's just kind of a dude. I've heard other people who've interviewed him say, you know, he's not hard to talk to, but, like, not a very revealing interview. No. But, you know, with this stuff, you'd mention, like, you know,

Carseed Headrest, Star, Mitzki, Star. And both of them got, you know, elevated to bigger labels pretty quickly. But, man, it's funny to talk about, like, this lo-fi bedroom pop boom as something that ended. Because I think it kept going, you know. It's, but, like, with what Kyle was talking about, this is a very, very distinct time period. Like, for example, you could think, like, soccer mommy was doing something similar to them,

but, like, with her or, you know, Biba Doobie or Phoebe Bridgers, there's more of, like, you know, backbone of, like, say, Cheryl Crow or Avril Levine. But this was more based in kind of Tweed or K Records sort of thing. Very much, like, community-based, small, tiny labels. Like, none of them ever really wanted to seem to get famous,

but and I was aware of a lot of these bands because if you wanted to see fourth wave emo bands at that time, there was a lot of crossover in that world. But one thing that Kyle brought up that I think is, it's not just regarding this particular wave of music, but like a lot of DIY smaller music in general. Like the appeal of this stuff was the sense of community, the DIY, silent barn. and he mentioned drama. I had forgotten just how much drama there was in this world. Yeah, wasn't there that there was like a rivalry with Carseat Headrest and Ricky Eat Ascent?

Yeah, so Sam Ray, like Sam Ray is someone who, you know, I've had conversations with, like, there were times where I think we were like enemies and then we became friends. And I think we're cool. Like he is one of the more fascinating figures on Twitter because he just kind of doesn't give a shit. but, you know, he was beefing with car seat headrest, which was funny, but, like, extremely deep internet. But then there was, like, what was the thing? I don't even.

They thought, they just thought car seat headrest was corny, I think. Like, I think that was, it was just straight up, like, your music is corny. Maybe, like, a hint, like, a hint of envy. But then it was, like, they would beef with, like, Matt Cothran from Elvis to Presley. And then, you know, there was just so much. And then you would hear about, like, the issues going on about, like, the little label. and then, you know, Matt caught, like, Ascoma Cinema. He released an Elvis De Presley.

He released some great albums. But then there was, like, he went, you know, away for, like, treatment. And after a while, it was just, like, I don't know if I can hang around these people anymore. It was like, some of them continue to release great music. But I think it just speaks to how when you invest some idea of, you know, this indie artist as being indicative of like a DIY world you want to create when they inevitably reveal themselves as being, you know, 23 or 24 year old human beings with like the same amount of drama as any other 24 year old. It becomes a lot more difficult to really continue to back them because

you know, you want to like the new Ricky Eat acid or American Music, American Poetry Club album then it's like, or no, sorry, American Pleasure Club. And it's like, is they going to say something stupid on Twitter that's going to make me regret this. So like most scenes, I think this one was meant to end after a few years. And that's exactly what happened. And I think, you know, to go back to your point earlier about, I think that there was this thing by design where a lot of the people in this scene didn't want to be like stars, or really kind of break out of the scene, which I think is a cool thing in a lot of ways,

If that's something like you really want to do, if you're just making music for your friends or for a community of people and you want to feel connected to that, I think there's a lot of validity to that. But I do think there is something that sets in after a while where maybe things get a little too insular. And it just becomes like diminishing returns after a while. Because if you aren't bringing in the outside world, how fresh can you make it without just recycling maybe the same ideas or just not having like the fresh blood that. that comes in when you maybe open up your music to a wider world. And the way that Alex G did, I mean, you mentioned, I believe he was on blonde, the Frank Ocean record? No, I think he was on endless.

I think he was on like... Was he an endless? Oh, that's right. That was like 2016, I think. Yes, yes, it was. And when I saw Frank Ocean at FYF Fest, he had like this orchestra and so forth, and Alex G was just sitting there on guitar with the rest of the orchestra.

It was really, really, really cool to watch. And, you know, again, Alex G, I think he's really built a pretty strong catalog. I was listening to House of Sugar before we taped this morning. That's a really good record. And, of course, Beach Music. I mean, I think that's still, like, maybe his most celebrated record. That record really holds up. So, yeah, he's building a good catalog.

And he's definitely one of those guys where if you hear he has a new record out, you're going to be excited. You feel like it's going to probably be good. So let's move into the meat of our episode. We're going to be continuing our conversation about notable albums from 2011. And, of course, we did that last week, and we talked about six albums between us. We're going to talk about six albums again, three each for both of us. I want to begin by talking about what is, I think, now my favorite album of this year. It was number four on my list.

By the way, did you see that someone found your village voice valid? Man, like that person is shocked at the top of the, like, intern pile, man. Went into the Wayback Machine and found your top 10. I think you had Bonnie Verrett number five on that list. I think I did. I was very much, like, under the... I was very much in the clutches of, you know, very much in the clutches of the indie narrative that year.

You know, I still like that album, but... It's a great... You know, again, like, I've been listening to that record a ton in the last, like, week or two. That's a great record. I had Tyler the Creator at number 10. I don't even remember listening to that album all the way through. I don't know what that was about. I mean, Tyler, the creator, talk about a guy who had an incredible arc in the 2010s into the 2020.

I mean, he's had a really fascinating career. We're not really going to be talking about him, although, I mean, we could have. Like his path from Goblin to where he is now, I think is a really interesting story. But my number one album of 2011, and I guess this would be 1A, and then that Bunny Vair record might be 1B, or maybe this is just the solid number one. But anyway, it's the War on Drugs, Slave Ambient. To the surprise of no one that this would be my number one record of 2011.

And I feel like I also need to bring up quickly Smoke Ring for My Halo by Kurt Vile, which was also in your top 10, I noticed. Yes, it was. Still is. And I would have talked about it in this 2011 series, but we talked about Kurt a couple episodes ago. So, you know, already on the record talking about my feelings about him. but the slave ambient

it's the second full-length album by the War on Drugs but in a way it feels like their debut Yeah Like it's really the album Where they come into their own And I remember I saw the War on Drugs A bunch in 2011

I remember I saw them around the time That Slave Ambien came out Which was around now, I think I think it was like around April or so Of 2011 Or maybe even late March But they were opening up for Destroyer Wow

when they were on tour for Caput. And it was in a bar and there were not that many people there. And then at the end of the year, I saw The War on Drugs again at the Beacon Theater in New York opening for the National. So a definite span of venues there moving from this bar to like this really big theater in Manhattan. And it was great to see them blossom in real time as a band that really opened up playing in the bigger rooms. Like they were good in the bar, but they were great. at the Beacon Theater. And you could really, I think,

start to hear that sense of expansiveness on slave ambient. And this was really them at like peak interlude. Like where they would have these long sort of ambient stretches between songs. That is, that was a big thing on this record. And it's something that they gradually moved away from. There's still a bit of that on Lost in the Dream.

And then deeper understanding really doesn't have that at all. But, I mean, for me, this was my favorite band of the 2010s. And this is a record that I think it's not quite on the level of the next two records for the War on Drugs, but it's really close for me. And I think the War on Drugs heads out there, they love this record. But I think overall, this album is still kind of underrated. People, I think, start with Lost in the Dream if you're more of a casual fan. And then they, of course, love deeper understanding.

But go back to this record if you haven't heard it. There's some fantastic songs on there. Baby Missiles is on there. Brothers is on here. Your Destiny's on this record. Lots of great songs. Also, the coming through EP. I think that one, I think Baby Misses is on that.

That's also coming through a great song. But, yeah, this is a classic album before the album album. Like, I think Beach House's devotion comes up as well as far as that goes. And, yeah, it's one that if you have, like, I love Juan drugs. I've been a fan since, you know, Wagon Wheel Blues, but this is the one where they really kind of get an inkling of what it is that they want to accomplish.

And you hear that, like, they're almost there. Like, they're still doing interludes rather than, like, incorporating them into, like,

a seven-minute song itself. And, but there's still, like, elements of, like, the, you know, kind of Dylan Springsteen, like,

more acoustic-y stuff from wagon wheel blues. So, you know, it's, I think it's going to be, like, one of those albums that people bring up like, oh, actually this is their best one. It's kind of the contrarian's choice, but it's still

on its own merit. It's a great record. Absolutely. And I think, you know, this is part of the interesting thing about doing these episodes is that we can look back and there's albums that seemed like they were a huge deal in 2011 and then 10 years later maybe feel a little diminished. And then there's other albums that were, I think, appreciated in their time, but they weren't looked at as like the major record. Yeah. It was hard to see the big picture, you know. And I think this, this album is. This album is. is an example of that where, you know, the war on drugs obviously had become this big band.

But people didn't really know that necessarily in 2011. I think there was an inkling maybe that was starting to happen by the end of the year. But, you know, certainly lost in the dream was where they really blew up. Yeah. But how about you? What's the first record you want to talk about? So this is an example of a band that, like, tried to be, like, they tried to, like, blow up, like, immediately. And, like, not, like, wait.

you know like there was no album before the album for this one and it's kind of a preview of like indecast hall fame pick for me uh if you follow me on twitter you know i feel about cold caves cherish the light years now this is an album that really did not signify greater trends it was not a huge critical hit nor a big um you know commercial hit but nothing i love more than a band trying to rise above their station and cold cave previously they had a pretty popular record with um You know, kind of doing more of like a minimalist new order Depeche Mode thing. And Cherish the Light Years, it was like a pure sellout move. Like, so a lot, what bothers me a lot about like bands who want to go pop nowadays,

they'll say, like, we've come to accept that, you know, we actually really love Taylor Swift or Robin. Like, you know, acts that are like consensibly beloved. So it's not really that daring. But like Cold Cave wanted to be like, like, Violator Era Depeche Mode, like pop nine inch nails. And the record itself is very much, like, they went in the studio, did a bunch of cocaine, and the record is, like, mixed to sound. Even though Chris Cody produced it, the guy who does, like, Beach House records and, like, a lot of,

like, really smooth-sounding stuff, this album is, like, basically the synth-pop be here now. Like, it is just brick wall the entire time. The Great Pan is dead. If you, like, it is one of the, like, I just remember hearing this song, it's like, oh, my God, this sounds like nine-inch nails doing Titus and Drive. Tonicus, totally my shit. And it kind of continues in that vein for the rest of the record. It's absolutely exhausting because it's just so loud the entire time.

And I don't think it really achieved their goals. As a matter of fact, pretty much afterwards, they never made another record. Like Cold Cave would continue to put out singles and be pretty popular in this vein of music that I don't think we talk a lot about much because I think it's kind of a Southern California phenomenon where like shoegaze goth cold wave like that sort of jesus and mary chain adjacent type music always has this like very hardcore audience that like cold cave whenever they come to san diego they'd get like a really good crowd like the kind of people who like their favorite band of the past maybe their only favorite band of the past 10 years is like dive or something like that um

it's because you guys don't it's something like it's something all the time there. Yeah. So you need to listen to this like gauphy music to simulate the feeling of a winter. Yeah. Southern California. That's my theory of why that would be popular. Have you, but have you heard this album?

I have not heard this album in a long time and hearing you talk about it really makes me want to put it on as soon as we get done recording. I mean, calling it a synth pop beer here now. I mean, you are just pushing my buttons with that description. So, yeah, I definitely want to dive into that. I remember when it came out. out though. I remember listening to it when it came out and enjoying it.

This seems like a record that like I wonder if it had come out like three years earlier. If it would have been received differently. If it would have because to me they always felt like they were still part of that wave of bands that came out like after Interpol hit big.

You know, like she wants revenge and Edgars and bands like that. You know? Like they kind of seem like they were in that vein of yeah like these post punk bands that would write pretty catchy songs, which, you know, we've, we've clowned on post-punk revival acts on this show, but I do like that Interpol wing of post-punk bands. You will not hear me say, I mean, even though like editors have released a lot of whack music,

like they are still kind of the, they're like the bush of, you know, like Bush, what Bush was to Nirvana. Like, you got to have that band that like just makes bangers, you know, like, and takes them way too seriously, but are also kind of silly. Like, I think that's what a lot of, that's what's missing with a lot of post-punk nowadays. Like, there's no one who wants to be the Bush, you know? Or it's just people that are, like, talking over, you know, bargain basement guitar riffs that aren't really melodic or catchy.

Like, I like these bands, yeah, that are pretentious, but they also have a really good pop sense. And they write really, like, catchy minor key songs. with like good grooves to them. That is always a winning formula for me. So yeah, I'm definitely going to dig into Cold Cave once we get done with this episode. Next record I want to talk about is it's civilian by a band called Yoke. And this is a band that I wonder, you know, we talk a lot about scenes in this show. We were talking about the lo-fi scene earlier.

Obviously, you talk a lot about emo and punk. And sometimes I feel like there are bands out there that. aren't really part of a scene and as years ago by they fall through the cracks a little bit because when you get your emo syllabus or you get your lo-fi pop syllabus these bands aren't on there

and they get forgotten which I think is unfair and I don't know to what degree like people remember Y Oak now they put out a record in 2018 that song of the latter something the faster I run title track is really good and I think that album was fairly well received

but I remember civilian being a record that like the A.B. Club, when I work there, this was the last year I was there when we did a year end list. This was like our number one album of 2011. And which seems like a bit of a contrarian choice now in retrospect. And it does make me a little nostalgic for that time when I think publications did that more. Like when I was at the A.B. Club, there was a real sense of like, you know, we're based in the Midwest. you know, we're not like all the other people that are in New York. I mean, I think pitchwork was already in New York by then. I mean, they had some offices in Chicago, but I think they were still in New York.

They might, I could be wrong about that, but we had a chip on our shoulder about being, we felt like we were on the outside of like the cool kid music publications. And it informed like a lot of our choices. And I think that along with just loving this record, a lot of people on staff, loving the album, I think that was part of the motivation for putting this up. there, which I don't know if that really happens as much anymore. It does seem that as social media, we talked again about how this was a year when you really started to feel the impact of social media, that's been a big agent of homogenization in music writing. I mean, we now know how everyone

feels about every record, and it tends to shape opinion. And I think this was an example of, like people on our staff just loving this album and wanting to make it number one no matter what else anyone else thought. Like I don't even think this was like a best new music for pitchfork. It might have been like a seven seven point something record for pitchfork. You've got a 7.9. So 7.9. So right below

right below the the best new music line. But you know Jen Wozner is the main driving force of this band. She's I believe she's putting out her flock of dimes record today her second flock of dimes record she's also a member of bunny vera now and she's all over the place she's all over the place she was on the monitor too she's on the monitor uh and this but this was like her big guitar record i remember seeing them live and she would like play solos and it was like a really like cool like set up it was a really good guitar record and she hasn't really made a record like this since.

And I just remember revisiting it for this episode and really enjoying it. And again, it's one of those records that I don't know how important it is in indie history or like where it's slots, really. I just think it's a great record. And if you're not familiar with this band, I would suggest checking them out. I think it really holds up. And it's basically like a straight down the line indie rock record. It's like right in the middle.

Super, super unpretentious. I think this is the last year before, like, consensus really took over. And I remember seeing, like, it being number one at A.V. Club. And it was so strange because I think even the people who are really into this band, like, wouldn't prop it up as, like, this is the most important album of that year. I think, you know, I enjoyed it. I think Wyoak is kind of classic indie cast and that every time they put out a new record, you just hear the same 12 people talking about how underrated they are.

And so to the point where it's like, are they actually overrated now? But no, they come out with like albums that I enjoy a couple songs. I think they'd be like in a weird way, like a great greatest hits type band. Because I loved a tween. That was an album that came out in 2016 where they really went shoegazy after a shriek, which was like their big synth pop pivot. I just think that there's so much better. better at like making guitar-based music, but, you know, I can't, I can't knock the wandering muse.

Yeah, and I think, and again, John Wozner, she's obviously done a lot of different things. She's a Renaissance woman. And it seems that maybe some of the more synth-pop instincts that she has, she's been able to integrate that more into everything that she does rather than Shriek, which, again, I wasn't a big fan of that record, I think it felt a little like, oh, guitars aren't in anymore. So let's do the synth pop record, you know, that kind of move, which I wasn't into. But yeah, civilian, great record. Go check it out. Yeah. What is your next record? So kind of the opposite of a record like civilian. So I had like a 1A and a 1B of 2011 and my number 1B was Drake's Take Care. Now,

I said in the last episode my number one A was M83's, hurry up we're dreaming. So just a quick aside. Like with this record, back in 2011, it's not the person I'm with now. I just want to make that clear. I was in like a really chaotic like relationship

where we would break up every two weeks and get back together. And towards the end of 2011, I was like, okay, if we're still together by the year end list, I'm going to choose M83 as my number one album because, you know, it's kind of a happy record. And if we're broken up, up again, I'm going to pick Take Care. And what happened was we were together when I voted for

pitchforks list and then broken up a few weeks later when I voted for Pa's and Jobs. So that's why I have two different number ones. But, you know, I bring this album up because even though this is Indycast, I think it's kind of impossible for us to really talk about indie music without bringing up Drake, which I don't think we've done. But this one right here is a real pivot because it is the point where Drake was popular beforehand, but then at this record, you kind of have to take them seriously because I think this is just an incredible, like,

hip-hop record, very conceptual, very lush musically. It holds together as like an 80-minute piece of music. And, I mean, it's just really interesting to watch, like, what happens when, you know, the critical community has to pivot from, okay, this guy's popular to, okay, now this person's an autore.

And I mean, and one thing that like stands out to me nowadays when I look back on Take Care is that I'm trying to remember when the last, you know, hip hop record came out that was seen like as much of an event as like, you know, the way that this record did. And, you know, Drake and Kendrick Lamar, like they kind of went toe for toe throughout the decade of releasing these kind of like opus, you know, type albums, which like you would draw and like immediately have opinions about it. And, um, I mean, that's a whole other story. But like, I want to bring this one up because I'm curious, like, what your favorite hip hop records of the 2010s were. Well, I mean, you know, it's, I wish I had more creative answers

for this, but it would probably be, you know, the Kendrick Lamar records and then Kanye West. You know, you're talking about like, yeah. Event records. And, you know, Kanye in the 2010s, especially, and this was also chewing the odds, but like you talk about event releases. He did have that run of my beautiful dark twisted fantasy, Jesus, and my life of Pablo, which my life of Pablo, I feel like was where I started to check out, where I felt like his lack of focus really started to impugn the music, along with all the other craziness

that took over his life after that. But, you know, I remember, like, when Jesus came out, how that was just, it just dominated everything. And even, like, you know, speaking of, like, 2011 event hip-hop albums, like, Watch the Throne. Oh, that one, yeah. That was kind of a huge deal. That was an alternate choice for me. Like, that would be just my platform to say, like, Jay-Z, I think, might have been the

most overrated artists of the 2010s. Like, watch the throne. Watch the Throne, like, it holds up in the same way that, like, you watch a corny action movie from, like, the 90s holds up. Like, I mean, it was fun, but it's so funny that people, like, even in 2011, were wondering about Watch the Throne. It's like, is this really responsible for them to put it out when so many people are still suffering the effects of the Great Recession? And, you know, try to listen. I can't wait for the 10-year anniversary pieces for Watch the Throne to, like, talk about, like, how. people relate to this album now.

I mean, I think that to me, and I remember feeling like this in the moment, that it felt like a hair metal record from the late 80s. And maybe I'm projecting that because there's a Kanye West lyric that like references Axel Rose. I think it's Kanye or it might have been Jay-Z. So maybe I'm projecting it onto it for that, but like just just the excess of it. Yeah. And I feel like on this record, it was still to me I liked it because it was

the escapism of it and the excess of it and I thought it was really appealing with Jay-Z where I think it tipped was like the Magna Carta Holy Gail era where like him and Justin Timberlake are talking about like collecting paintings and things like that I'm interested in collecting art you know

I think it's more just I mean there's a whole well you know what I mean but yeah it's just like the decadence of it The decadence of that album. Ivory backscratcher for. I'm not knocking art. I'm just saying like there was this idea of not celebrating art.

It was celebrating art as possessions. Yeah. And that's where I felt like the decadence started to tip a bit. Yeah. But I, you know, I don't know. It's like, do you want Jay Z and Kanye West to be making a recession album? I mean, like, do you want them to be commenting on it? I mean, that's not their reality.

They're like, they're like, rich. They're like literal billionaires. you know so I feel like that was their reality and that's the choice that they made at the time and the music I think was still pretty good on that record although I've not listened to Watch the Throne

in a super long time that'd be fun to throw on speaking of albums I've not played in a long time masterful masterful segue masterful bringing up my last album that I want to talk about from 2011 and that is David Comes to Life

by fuck Up. And this was my number two album of 2011 on my AV Club ballot. And this is an album I've not played in years. Well, I mean, not until we did this episode. I did listen to some of it before we recorded. And Fucked Up is an interesting band to me because there was a moment in the late aughts in early 2010s where they were, I think, considered like a pretty big deal, certainly by like the music press. Yeah, they put out that record, The Chemistry of Common Life.

Love that. In 2008, which was this, like, combination of, like, hardcore punk and, like, epic shoegaze music, which, um, actually,

like, seems to have, like, carried forward from then. I mean, you, you, you hear that combination and,

uh, lots of bands, I think now in 2021, um, although they aren't necessarily referencing fucked up when they're doing that. Or if they are, I'm not hearing it.

Uh, and then in 2011, they put out David Comes to Life, which is like this big, like rock opera. They're like, you know, American idiot,

if you will. Yeah. And I think I really got swept up in like the grandness of it. I like rock operas. I like concept records. And there's a lot of great music, I think,

on that record. And I remember, like, I did like a 5,000 word interview with Beaming Abraham, the singer fucked up for the AV club. Wow. Which seems insane that they would let me do that.

Like a five, like this epic, like old, like, It's like I'm interviewing John Lennon for Rolling Stone, you know, like, that's the kind of space that you would get for that. But I have to say, and I've talked about this in other episodes, that like, when I listen to David comes to life now, I find this album to be exhausting when I listen to it. Yeah. And I think it's just related to, like, my own exhaustion, like, with punk dude vocals.

Like the screaming vocals on this album. it just makes it really hard for me to listen to it for an extended period of time. Even though I love the wall of guitars, I love the music, there's a lot of great melody on this record. But I don't know. I think I listened too much to bands like fucked up in the 2010s. And I just, it's hard for me to put up with it. I always wish they would have let Sandy Miranda sing more in this band. Or anyone.

Or anyone. But, I mean, because generally, like with punk and emo bands lately, I just tend to prefer female vocalists. If you have a female singer, I'm more likely to be on board than, like, just the dude with his shirt off singing or screaming his head off. I'm just tired of that. And I know you disagree with me big time on that. But like on this album especially, I think it's, it can be egregious.

Yeah, because this album's 80 minutes long or something like that, you know? Yeah, it feels like, maybe it's, maybe it's, was like 15 minutes. It was the, you know, 15 minute, like, rock opera. Yeah. That could have been amazing. Well, for me, it's like I really loved chemistry of common life. I reviewed it for pitchfork back in the day.

And, you know, I was excited about this record. And I think what happened with fucked up is that they became sort of like a band that I file within the proto-martre hold steady sort of wave of like, sort of like punk music, but like kind of separated from the excitement. and youth of it. Like, it just, they became kind of classic rock. And my, you know, what made it difficult for me to really embrace David comes to life beyond, the rock opera part doesn't really bother me.

It's the fact that it seemed like it was just so much of four-minute song after four-minute song of like, you know, and Damien Abraham, I'm pretty sure he still blocked me on Twitter. But I think why, I mean, I did review, I gave like some 7.0s to fucked up album. and like you know throughout but um yeah it's just like it it it's just very static and his voice just dominates everything around it so regardless like what they're doing musically it's just really tough to endure and i just i also got like really kind of weary of the uh projection of like classic rock ideals to their music it just seemed to me to be a band that was like propped up by a lot of critics who otherwise didn't have much interest in like what was

going on in like punk and hardcore and emo. They became like sort of classic rock to me. And going forward with this band, I think that, you know, they had some interesting ideas, but the music itself was generally less exciting. Like I loved reading their, you know, their press releases, but the record itself, the albums themselves just seemed like very inflexible. And also the wall of guitars. I mean, like they would just overdub after overdub after overdub to the point where kind

of be here. nowish, to be honest with you. Second time we brought it up. It's interesting you bring that up because, about the classic rock projection onto this band, I would actually argue that, like, them still trying to hold on to the hardcore aspect of their music is, like, what, like, holds this album back. You know, you have to have the screaming guy. Yeah, I would say that.

You know, it's like, you know, like, why not just have Sandy Miranda sing more songs? Because it's like, you obviously have this grandiose music, you know, that is beautiful. Why do you have to have this hectoring lead singer? Because to me, the music is the strength of that album. It's not like the hardcore punk vocalists on there. I mean, to me, just totally embrace being this grandiose rock band. If it weren't for Damien Abraham, like, would they be received in the same way, though? Like, would they be seen then maybe as more like, I don't know, muse or something like that?

Because that's the thing. It's like, you're right. It's kind of a no-win situation in that, like, the vocals of Damien and Abraham, like, really grab your attention and make fucked up like a very interesting you know like a very interesting concept of like here's this hardcore band

trying to make like rock operas about you know Greek mythology and you know like all these high heady concepts but at the same time it's like do I want to listen to this for 75 minutes you know yeah I just looked up quick to see if Muse put out an album in 2011 and they didn't

so that's too bad I would have liked to talk about a Muse album. We haven't talked about Muse yet on Indycast. I know. I'm ready. I'm looking forward to that conversation. 15th anniversary of Black Coles and Revelations coming up at some point. Yeah. I think this summer, maybe we'll... Next year the second law turns 12.

Or no, next year the second law turns 10, I think. Yeah. Oh, man. The second law. Yeah. Most fun I've ever had writing a review probably, but neither here nor there. Oh, man. Okay. So what's the last record? do you want to talk about? All right. So this album also feels a bit marooned in 2011. It's not an artist.

I hear people talk about a heck of a lot. But it's EMA, past life martyrs saints. And this was also in my top ten. It would still be. It's not a record I pick up very often. But every time I do, I'm like, damn, why don't I listen to this more often? In a way, like, this artist seems to be a bit ahead of her time. because in 2011, you know, right now in 2021, the ideal for the, you know,

a consensus big-time indie rock artist is, you know, a solo performer who still sounds like a band. And EMA was doing this in 2011. But with this record, she debuted this album with California, which is still one of the most striking singles of its time. Like the first lyric like, you know, fuck California. me boring. It just draws your attention immediately. There's no drums. It's just for the most part, like guitar feedback and violins. And, you know, the rest of the record kind of follows suit of being very confrontational, very ugly in a way that, of course, everyone compared to PJ Harvey and Courtney Love. I think it, you know, it's a reduction. It's a reductionist comparison, but, you know,

if that's what gets people to listen, by all means. And I'd say she's like ahead of her time because I would be very curious to see how, I mean, she's still making music, but like how she would operate as, you know, a new artist who would have to kind of have a Twitter brand. Because I think one of the things that, you know, really struck me in your interview with Julian Baker is her talking about having to present herself as this likable person or this all-knowing person or someone who's relatable on Twitter despite how she feels internally. And I think that this record, confounds that it's there's there's there's a lot of more confrontation a lot of like ugliness being revealed but in like more of a frightening way than like uh you know just look at my misery sort of way and i think that like going forward with her she made a lot of records that were you know at the time like criticized for being maybe like a bit too i don't know like maybe a bit too insular like she made a record about like internet surveillance and it reminds me now of like m ia's myo which came out in 2010 and that like yeah there's like a kind of a lot of like bullshit but also they were

right about most things um and yeah it's it's just a situation where i think if they were transposed to the twitter age there would be someone who would be like in the news constantly for saying things that you know were maybe provocative but like had a air of truth to them And I really want to revisit the albums that she made after this because at the time, it was, I would kind of put them aside as because of someone, you know, like what you do sometimes when someone's like not really part of the narrative anymore. It's like, oh, I'll get to this one. You know, it's not appointment listening.

But I think that they are more likely not to hold up. I mean, what was your take on this record? Yeah, I mean, this wasn't in my top 10, but I remember liking this record and I, I dipped into it when I saw that you wanted to talk about it today. And yeah, it's like a really, like, cool record. And similar to, I think, Yoke, Civilian, it's one of those albums that, like, doesn't slot comfortably in any one scene or area. Right.

So if you're younger, you weren't around or listening to music in 2011 and you want to, like, hear what the big albums were of this time, this can be an easy album to overlook because it's not going to be in the syllabus of, like, a certain scene or whatever. but I think that's one of the strengths of this album is that it's hard to classify. It's a singer-songwriter record, but it's not of the kind that we're used to hearing these days where you mentioned like Phoebe Bridgers-ermitsky

there's more of like a danger to this record and it's more acerbic and I like that aspect to it because especially now who are like the sort of bad boys or bad girl indie songs. We don't have like a lot of that. People that are willing, I think,

to be a little more subversive or edgy or even caustic in their music. And I think that's what I really responded to revisiting this record. And yeah, she's still making records. So I'm curious to hear what she does next. I think I'm going to do what you did and revisit a lot of her albums from the 2010s

because it does seem like a pretty interesting catalog to get into. Of course, we went long this week. We're going way over here. Should we just do a quick shout-out instead of our usual recommendation corner? I just want to say, Coors and Fable, the new record by Riley Walker, that's out today.

Beautiful record. Great combination of, like, Genesis records from the 70s and, like, Chicago Post Rock. Like, he worked with John McIntyre on this record, who's from Tortoise and the Sea and Cake. So lots of multi-part songs that have great guitar solos and beautiful interludes in them. So if that's your thing, definitely check out Course and Fable by Rowley Walker. What do you want to shout out?

Classic indie rock, classic indie cast choice. For me, I would say that there's out my stumbled upon by this Australian band called Get Well Kid. It came out towards the end of 2020. And it's it's like what happened if the Apple Seed cast became like a chill wave band? I guess. Yeah, it's like super low, super raw, low five. The guy's got like 84 followers on Twitter. Find it.

It's called Get Well Kid, I believe it's self-titled. It's almost impossible to find on like YouTube or what have you. But I get the sense that if this would be something that like people would really rally around if they just kind of knew about it. Also a band called Twinkle Park. They kind of, they were on the Glass Beach remix album. if you take the more hyperpop parts of Glass Beach you have Twinkle Park so shout to them kind of hard to find bands but you know what

they're totally worth it and they take maybe 15 minutes of your time well great recommendations and great fun talking about the records of 2011 I guess we'll go back to the present in our next episode although who knows it depends on what's happening in indie culture hopefully Little Nazex will put out another video thank you again for listening to this episode of Indicast We'll be back with more reviews, news, and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.