Indiecast - Let's Talk About FKA Twigs, The Weeknd + Brand New

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Steven and Ian open with a discussion of a recent article about the shutdown of the Pitchfork Music Festival that gives new behind-the-scenes details on the situation and sheds light on the festival industry overall (0:35). Then they pivot to a quick Sportscast about Ian's team the Philadelphia Eagles making the Super Bowl and Steven's heel turn as a Kansas City Chiefs supporter (12:20). They also talk about two records in the Fantasy Albums Draft by FKA Twigs and Bonnie "Prince" Billy, and give their takes on the respective artists' careers (19:11). They also review the career of The Weeknd ahead of his new album out today, Hurry Up Tomorrow (29:07).In the mailbag, they address a follow-up question on the comeback potential of disgraced emo band Brand New (46:33). Finally, in Recommendation Corner, Ian speaks up for Benjamin Booker and Steven goes for Rose City Band (59:46).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 224 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the new album from FCA Twigs, The Weekend, and brand new. Now, that was the new album from FCA Twigs. It's not that they're all collaborating, just to clarify there.

My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He once demanded that Pitchfork Fest book, Demi Lovato, Ian Cohen, Ian, who are you? I don't know who you got fact-checking this, but I was not the Demi Lovato guy. I was the Baby Rexa guy. I was the Jesse J guy. I was the Rita Orr guy.

I want all the B team of the pop girlies, particularly ones who haven't been in movies yet. So, you know, maybe they're a little bit more in the price range. Yeah. I'm referring to a story that ran this week on the website of WBEZ, which is the public radio station insurance. Chicago, they ran what I thought was a really interesting story about the pitchfork festival and why that went away. If you'll recall, it was announced last November that this long-running festival wasn't going to be happening anymore.

And we didn't really know a lot of the background. And this story fills in the blanks. And it feeds into the conversation we've been having on this show this year, an ongoing conversation about the implosion of music festivals and how it really feels like this is a bloated market and we're going to be seeing a lot of festivals go away. And this story certainly adds credence to that prediction of mine. And it also just, again, reiterates something that I think was made clear a year ago when Kandei Nass laid off a bunch of pitchfork staff. That Kandai Nass basically bought this site and they didn't really like the site or

or know what it is or understand it or care about it. And we're really seeing that play out also with this festival. I'm just going to read a little bit here from the article. I didn't know about this. Apparently last year, were you at the festival last year? No, I did not go. I was there in 2023, I believe. So apparently last year there were these V.

I did hear about that, yeah. Put in front of the soundboard. And then there was like an area in front of the stage that was also a VIP area. People were complaining about that. And this was something that they were doing in order to find another revenue stream because these festivals cost so much to put on. One of the fact toys that jumped out of this story was that in the past, it was typical for a headliner at pitchfork to be paid between $12,000 and $20,000.

and now the asking price for headliners starts at a million dollars. I mean, if you're Oasis or the White Stripes, they also kick the tires on apparently. Right. Well, and also, you know, the article also reports that Condé Nass was pushing pitchfork to book pop stars. And they mentioned Justin Bieber and Demi Labato. Is Demi Levato a pop star? I guess she is technically. Yeah, I feel as if like she's in that sort of Selena Gohauer.

Mose area where it's like they might be acting a little bit more or put out an album every now and again. But like, I think what they're basically saying is that they are looking at pop stars who are really outside the purview of, you know, pitch for like what they cover. Because like you could say like it's sort of like the black pumas to the black keys. Justin Bieber and Demi Lovato are to say like, you know, Taylor Swift or whatever. And we could see this last year, the effects of Kande Nas really trying to broaden this festival. You mentioned Black Puma's played last year. Alanis Morissette played there last year.

Really trying to move it into like a mini-lalapalooza direction as opposed to what pitchfork was, which used to be this very well-run festival that was geared towards indie rock. Remember indie rock? Yeah, it used to be pitchfork and that's what people loved about it. And then we're like, oh, this thing. that people love and we're going to change the things that people love and turn it into just this gray mush that resembles all the other gray mushes that are around the country that are known as music festivals. Apparently there was a plan for there to be a festival in 2025

was going to be the 20th anniversary festival and the organizers were already at work, reaching out to artists trying to book the festival. And then I apparently Condé Nast reached out suddenly. I guess it was on November 11th of last year, and they said, we're canceling the festival. And then 90 minutes later, they announced it on Instagram. So it was like a pretty cold ending to the festival. But one interesting thing in this article,

more of a big picture thing, they were interviewing somebody, I think it's a talent booker or something, who was predicting that it's really going to be, a thing where you have these huge festivals that control different corners of the country. So you have Coachella on the West Coast. You have Lala Poulouse in Midwest. You have Austin City Limits in the Southwest, Governor's Ball on the East Coast.

It's almost going to be like the five families, each have their own territory. And these smaller festivals are going to get squeezed out just because the artist's fees are so expensive. And artists are charging more because they don't make as much money from records. They have to really lean into these festivals. appearances and it just seems like what the future is going to be is festivals that all look alike that really have no distinct flavor to them and these festivals like Pitchfork that used to have a niche are going to be squeezed out so pretty depressing but an interesting read yeah I think the thing that stood out to me and what I've been dwelling upon is whether black pumas took their

million dollar booking fee and just planned out like five more re-releases of their last album like they did before. They're going to be hitting. That's where they get all their money from. All that extra packaging is lining the pockets of Black Pumas. Can you imagine like signing the check on a million dollar booking fee for Black Pumas? Like I am putting my name to this. I am transferring a million dollars from my organization.

Didn't like everyone leave when they played too? I mean, you don't know. Sometimes people exaggerate on social media, but I remember seeing reports that Black Puma's like cleared the room out, you know, like they were the replacements drunkenly playing covers in 1985 or something. Or blur in Coachella in 2013. Right. It was, uh, I mean, look, there's got to be a way. Yeah. To have a festival that is scaled to the audience that it's serving and just have like a nice business doing that. You know, maybe I'm not an economics expert, but why does everything have to be scaled up to this mega size to the point

where it can't be sustained? Yeah. I mean, obviously, pitchfork lasted for a long time. Why can't it just be this festival that books artists that aren't going to ask for a million dollars? I don't think they're going to be paid $20,000. I mean, there's inflation, but I mean, there's got to be something in between $20,000 and a million dollars.

Yeah. I mean. Or am I just not? I mean, why can't there just be, I mean, this is true not just with festivals, it's true with media companies. It's true across all entertainment. Things just get scaled up to the point where they're not sustainable and then they go away. Like, why can't you just keep it at a certain size that's manageable and keep it going like you did for 19 years? I guess I don't understand why that's why that seems to be impossible.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, you and I mean, you and I. I know how many times like Indycast has been asked to have like guest stars like Demi Lovato and Addison Ray and whatnot. But we just keep it. We keep it humble here at Indycast. So we are the model for the future. But it's like pitch for people liked it because it wasn't Lollapalooza. Like that was the appeal of it that you would see bands there that you wouldn't see

at the big festivals. And you would see it in an environment that was easy to move around. It's a little bit smaller. You're not just dumped in a big field with like a million people and, you know, being charged, you know, $15 for a water bottle or whatever. I mean, that is, that was the appeal of it. And then someone decides, well, let's put in VIP boxes and book Demi Levato at Pitchfork Fest. Why? You're turning off your audience.

You're not going to attract a new audience to this thing. Someone needs to explain this to me I guess I feel naive because I don't understand why that can't work. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because they talk about like genre festivals perhaps being things that are scaled properly but like pitchfork music is a genre.

You know what I'm saying? Like so I got my fingers, I got my fingers crossed that wiser heads may prevail and it might come back because it's happening in like Mexico City, I think. Yeah. I mean, the genre used to be pitchfork. That was the,

genre. It was like music that pitchfork covers. And that's why you could have, it wasn't just indie rock. I mean, they'd have hip hop. They'd have, you know, R&B artists. They'd have all across the spectrum of music, but it was all music that pitchfork covered. And maybe part of the problem is that pitchfork itself doesn't feel as solid of an identity as they used to be, like 20 years ago, like where you felt, okay, this is a sensibility to this site. And that's maybe hard. order to put your finger on through no fault of the people who work there. I mean, it's just, it's the Kandei Nast of it all. It just gets turned in. I mean, they bought a lifestyle brand.

That's what they did. They didn't buy a website or a music festival or an idea or, you know, something that they actually cared about. It was a lifestyle brand to reach young men. I mean, I think they said that in an article. You know, young men read pitch for it. and we're trying to reach young men, and we want to sell him Cologne and designer shorts and whatever.

That being said, do read my profile of Black Country New Road on Pitchfork, which is published today as we record. Well, in Pitchfork still, look, I'm not knocking Pitchfork. They still do good work. And it's all because of the people who work there. I'm just saying they work for people who don't understand what they do and don't like what they do. You know, Anna Wintour, I mean, we joked about this.

And the Wintour was not, you know, rocking in the airplane over the sea back in 98. You know, she was not going to see pavement back in the day in 92. You know, they just don't understand what made this thing special, why people liked it. It's just a means to an end to sell the advertisers. And they're like, well, advertisers like Demi Lovato, so we'll put her into this thing. Do they? I mean, does she like, that's the thing to me. Well, yeah, that's the other thing.

I don't think so, but again, we might be naive. I don't know. I think advertisers want to reach people going to a festival that they like. Not something that's been ruined by management, but anyway. Let's talk about sports cast here. We'll do a quick sports cast before we get to our other musical topics. Because your team is in the Super Bowl, Ian. Yes.

The birds. The birds are in the Super Bowl. it's like Mr. Tambourine Man is top the charts again. That's how great it is for the birds here in 2025. I got to say, man, I floated this out last week. I know this is a bit of a heel turn for me to say this, but I'm cheering for the Chiefs. I can't, I cannot cheer for your team.

I'm sorry, Ian. The birds, there's something going on in my, my social media feed this week, people keep feeding me. I say people. I mean the algorithm keeps feeding me videos of Eagles fans, badgering commanders fans after the game last week. Just being awful, like stereotypical Eagles fans, almost like, is this for real or is this like a bit?

Yeah. Like we're satirizing Eagles fans. But the algorithm is programming me to re-insize, state my dislike of the Eagles. And now you're making me go with death and taxes and earthquakes and all the other inevitable things that are akin to the Chiefs. So I apologize Ian, but I just can't bring myself. I love Saquan Barclay, great player. I think he should be MVP. If they gave that award to non-quarterbacks, they should give it to him. I mean, he was incredible. He's incredible all year.

Bus 60-yard runs like every game. But yeah, I don't know, man. Yeah, I mean, I don't necessarily blame you. You know, like for me, I'm not, of course, I'm rooting for the Eagles. Although I also know that given how 2025 has progressed thus far, the chief celebrating at the Trump White House feels like not just the most demoralizing outcome, but also the one that's most likely to happen. Just reprehensible players, reprehensible owner, reprehensible NASCAR.

It's just bad all the way down. But like, I kind of in a weird way appreciate the fact that the Eagles are playing them because otherwise I think Eagles fans would be like way too overconfident after just having everything go their way against the commanders. So this kind of keeps fans in check in a way that like it wouldn't be the case if they were playing the bills or whatever. But you know, with the Chiefs, I'm not like saying I appreciate them winning by no means. but I have kind of turned the corner on it in that, yes, I think they're awful in the same way that I think, like, you know, the Republican Party is awful. But I find myself just as mad at the people who can't beat them. You know, like the bills, like, I know you were going off on the tush push, brotherly shove, whatever. And then the bill, I'm like, you've got to think of another fourth in one play.

Like the bills just made all like the little mistakes where you're just like thinking to yourself, this is going to impact the outcome somehow. because the Chiefs always win by three or four points, never by 12. And lo and behold, like, they take away an extra point, try for two, miss it, get stuffed on fourth and one. Like, these are the things that you need to beat the Chiefs. And this to me feels like a Georgia-Alabama game where, you know, Philly is UGA because they have like half that defense. They're just a team that has your number.

I feel like the things that the Chiefs do work against the Eagles. They blitz all the time. they make like they they they can get like five six yards at a time Kareem Hunt's probably going to win Super Bowl MVP and like have it be called like a redemption story like there's I'm just think or like Harrison Buckker wins it or Matt Areza or the other guys who have been like implicated in some sort of like actual bad controversy so I forgot about Butker

oh man when you're when your kicker is a heel that's like taking it to a whole new level. Like when people know your kicker and they know him because he thinks like women shouldn't be in the world. I forgot what his comments were. It was some sort of retrograde. Yeah. And also.

And also. And Travis Kelly's like, oh, he's a great guy and a great teammate. I don't agree with his youth. But he's a great person. Also like, you know, the punter as well has his own. I mean, he was clear of all charges. But nonetheless, uh, uh, controversy surrounding the punter as a,

well. I don't know about the punter. I haven't heard that story. Yeah, it's not good. I was thinking about how, like, it feels like the most impactful thing that happened in the NFL this decade is that playoff game from, I think, 2022, where it was the Chiefs Bills, and they had that incredible ending where in regulation, the Chiefs were able to score with 13 seconds left,

like, just go down the field and take a field goal. And the fact that the Bills could not win that game. just feels like such a, like, turning point. Well, they changed the rules after that game, too. Well, I know, but they should have won in regulation. Yeah, totally. They should have, they had 13 seconds to go down the field. I think they had one time out, maybe?

Yeah. I forget. Like, Sean McDermott, you've got to stop them there. After Josh Allen leads you down, I think he, I think there were like four lead changes, like in the last two minutes of that game. It was incredible. I mean, Josh Allen had that, like, fourth and 15. I think it was touchdown in that time

and then the Chiefs went back that Tyree Kill that's another guy Look at the personal life section of his Wikipedia page and it'll ruin the rest of your day But Like that game to me

Because if they win that game And the bills go to the Super Bowl And they win That just changes the course of so many things Like maybe Travis Kelsey Doesn't end up dating Taylor Swift because he wouldn't be like a multi-super Bowl winning tight end anymore. I don't know.

Sean McDermott, like they're cursed with him because he's just good enough to play the Chiefs better than anyone and still lose in heartbreaking fashion. Like no other team plays the Chiefs as well as the Bills, but they just never win. I guess Joe Burrow and the Bengals would be, I mean, they've actually beaten the Chiefs at Arrowhead, but like Mahomes had like a concussion that game too.

It was kind of a weird game. Or Tom Brady has to come back. That's the only other option. Get them out of the booth, man. Get them out of the booth. Have them, like, play for the Jets. Like, do the Aaron Rogers thing, but do it bright. Put him on the Raiders.

Put him on the Raiders, man. The part owner, part quarterback, that'd be an amazing story. Let's do a quick fantasy draft update. We talked about this last week, FCA Twigs, her album, last Friday. U asexua? Usexual. Usexual.

U, like with a Y. Usexual. Such a dumb title. I hate that album title. But that's a really good album. We were DMing about this. This is the album of at least this part of the year

where it's my favorite album that I'm never going to read about because I know reading about it will ruin the album for me. I'm just anticipating a lot of questionable music writing, a lot of like, you know, like liberation of the club. Is that phrase coming up at all?

Like, are we talking about that? That's pretty much all it is. It's like, you know, sort of like a hint of 2017, like, style resistance tweeting about, like, you know, the club's the only place where we can be ourselves. And it's like, yeah, I guess if you're FKA twigs, you know, like, I think like clubbing in Prague, you know, that's like the big story. while she was filming the crow you know she

and again I've read enough but not too much of the writing where it's like yeah this isn't gonna help it's like it's not as deep as you want it to be you know is it fair to say that dance is a radical form of protest joy as an act of resistance that that if we liberate our bodies

we can perhaps liberate society in these troublesome times um no I like this record a lot. I actually've been a little hotter cold, probably more cold on previous FCA Twigs albums. Her records always sound amazing. The production's always great.

She's obviously very innovative artist. Just for me personally, I feel like her records tend to feel more like work than pleasure. It's not really something I love listening to, even though I can respect the craft involved. This record, I think, is the closest she's come to making a fun record. There's still a lot of, like, artsy, self-conscious aspects to it, starting with the terrible album title. But

musically, I really like it. It kind of reminded me a little of the Kelly Lee Owens record from last year in the sense that that record reminded me of Madonna's ray of light. And I feel like there's some ray of light energy a little bit on this FCA Twigs album, and I love that era of Madonna. So maybe this just means I have to listen to Madonna more. but I like this record a lot and I'm not going to read about it because I don't want it to be ruined. Yeah, I mean, I've heard that the last,

it's not really an album. I heard it was a mixtapes capra songs. That was like a big thing that the Indieheads podcast talked about when I went on there because we talked about an FKA Twigs song. Yeah, I like this album like way more than the previous too,

which felt like a little too smart, dumb, high art. You know what I mean? Like I think there are some songs here that are like total duds, like Room of Fools where it's like not, a metaphor. It's like, it's like, are you, like, it, it, it takes itself so seriously that the fun

songs, like, kind of work against it. But, yeah, I like this more than I anticipated. The sound design, the production's, like, unbelievable. And it just kind of, incredible headphone record. Yeah, incredible. Talk about it being like a club record, but, well, you know, you and I, we like to go to the club all the time. But to liberate ourselves after, you know, like doing a little indie cast. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We need to, when we need to, well, we need to, we need to, to do some radical protesting in the form of dance. We hit the club. But I think I'd rather hear it on headphones, like, at home.

I mean, it sounds incredible. So this record, I'm not reading the reviews, but I'm looking at the scores. It has a 90 on Metacritic. I'm a little disappointed, to be honest. I needed that to put up, like, 93 or 94, because my other albums are dragging ass. Well, there's still time, I guess. I feel like the scores usually go down, not up, as more reviews get added.

I think you're probably good at a 90 here. I don't think it's going to go below that. So you were hoping for like a 93, 94. Yeah, especially like a lot of my albums that I've been putting up have been better reviewed than the score indicates if that makes any sense. I think that's true with Benjamin Booker compared to like Bonnie Prince Billy, you know. Yeah. Well, speaking of Bonnie Prince Billy, that's one of my albums.

His new record is out today. It's called The Purple Bird. Currently has an 83. I was curious about your feelings on Will Oldham. I feel like I know where you're going to go, but I was thinking about his catalog and how, you know, I'm a little noncommittal, I think, to Will Oldham. The records of his I like the most are the Superwolf records with Matt Sweeney. And I think the Matt Sweeney addition does a lot to it, just his guitar playing.

It takes him in a more crazy horse sounding direction sometimes, which is where I want Will Oldham to be. I want him to be more of a Neil Young type person, maybe, I guess, subconsciously. But like a lot of his records, I kind of have the same response where I'm listening to it. And this also goes for the latest album, Purple Bird. I'm listening to it. I'm like, this is good. This has a lot of elements that I like. but it doesn't really hit me.

And, you know, I recently wrote a column about Jason Molina, just looking at his career, a beginner's guide to his music, because he's been someone who's been name-checked a lot in recent years, you know, starting with MJ Lenderman all the way down, all of those sort of all country-leaning singer-songwriters. A lot of them love Jason Molina. And when you read about Jason Molina, like in the early years, he was dogged by Will Oldham

comparisons. And obviously they collaborated. Will Oldham helped get his first record released. But people really looked at Molina as sort of like a secondhand Will Oldham. And I don't know. I feel like that shifted over time. I know for me, like I much prefer Jason Molina

to Will Oldham. And I think the thing about it is that with Molina, his music just hits, he hits you on a gut level. level. I mean, it's very intense, emotional music, whereas I feel like with Will Oldham, it's a little affected. I feel like he's kind of keeping you at arm's length. I don't really recall often listening to Will Oldham's music and being moved, you know, or feeling like I might get choked up, whereas I, with Jason Molina, I do get that feeling. So I don't know if that's just me

or if other people would have that same takeaway, but I think that's always been, yeah, that's always been the thing that's kind of kept me a little at arm's length with Will Oldham. Yeah, and I think for a lot of people, that's what makes them love Will Oldham, that he goes through so many guises. Like, he did, like, a, like, a full-on country-politan record when, like, that was, like, a super uncool thing to do. As far as, like, how I work with his catalog, um, as predicted, I discovered I see a darkness from the, like, OG pitchfork 90s album list. I think it was in the top 10, and I'd never heard it before. And, you know, in two, 2003, I was listening to that record a lot. It's awesome. But that being said, it's pretty much the only Will Oldham project that I like listening to as a whole. I think he's more kind of like guided by voices in the sense that at this point, particularly, you don't look for me. It's almost like lifestyle music. You know what I'm saying? Like you just get more Will Oldham music and you can appreciate the fact that he's doing his own thing and kind of not beholden to anybody or any trends. And, um, you know,

Yeah, it's like, it's a good choice for this because, you know, the one person who listens to all the Will Oldham album is going to review it, review it positively. And I think he's like a real, he's, he's an admirable guy whereas you listen to like Jason Molina and you think, I don't know if like I want to, I don't know if I like, you know, relate to this guy or like, you know, aspire to be this guy. I think there's something aspirational in the way what, like, Will Oldham is a old school idea of like an indie rock institution. And so I think that that, yeah, and I listen to him and there's a theatricality to it. He is an actor. He's been in quite a few movies. Yeah, there's, it's performance. And I mean that not necessarily as derogatory.

But yeah, it's not going to hit you the same way that Will Oldham does or, you know, another person he'd been affiliated with like Mark Kozalik. Yeah, it's just sort of like, yeah, you know. Of that group, Will Oldham is the one I'm sort of least on board with. And it's not really a knock on him. It's just that his music hasn't touched me like those other artists have. I mean, I see a darkness. That's a really good record.

But I think I like the Johnny Cash version of the title track more than the Will Oldham version. Just because Johnny Cash, when you hear him sing that song, it's a great song. When you hear Johnny deliberate, I mean, Johnny's just a more emotional artist. And I think I connect with that. I should say the Metacritic score for this album is an 83. So solid. I wasn't expecting more than that. It's given me what I need.

I was more afraid of it being like high sevens. But it's 83. As long as it stays above 80, I'll be happy with that. So I'm pleased with that pick. Yeah, we're getting that Eagles commander's score here, not an AFC championship score. I think you're going to run away with this shit. Well, we'll see what happens.

All right, well, let's transition to an artist who is very different from Will Oldham. or FCA Twigs. Well, maybe more, maybe in line with FKA Twigs in a way, at least at his roots. Let's talk about The Weekend. He has a new album out today. Hurry up tomorrow. It's a double record. I haven't heard it yet.

I don't think anyone's heard it. Maybe some highfalutin people at Rolling Stone have heard it and they're going to write about it. And they'll be out when this podcast comes out on Friday. But I wrote about the weekend's career this week on Uprocks, wrote a big column, did a list. did a list of 25 songs and I kind of dove deep into the history of the weekend, who's an artist I'm really interested in. I've been listening to him for almost 15 years now. And one of the things I wanted to do in the column was shift the context a little bit with the weekend

because, you know, we think about the weekend now. We think about how he is one of the biggest artists in pop music. He has 25 songs that have at least a billion streams on Spotify, which is incredible. No other artist has as many songs with a billion streams or more, not even Taylor Swift. He has the single biggest song of the streaming era

with blinding lights, which I believe has 4.6 billion streams and is locking in on 5 billion streams very soon. So obviously just a ginormous artist. But if you remember, he started out in the indie. World. Back when he was an unknown hustler from Toronto, living on the streets, having loft parties, decadent sex drugs, escapades, all that. And he was posting his earliest songs

on YouTube, and he was this anonymous person. People didn't know if he was a guy, if he was a band. There were no photos of him initially. And he was putting out these mixtapes that were a big hit in the indie community and then eventually he blew up and became a pop phenomenon. But House of Balloons, the first mixtape, then you have Thursday and Echoes of Silence. They're collected on a album called Trilogy that comes out in 2012. That does very well. That really establishes him. But there was this thing at the time known as hipster R&B.

There was also PBRNB, the other alternative R&B. It was these R&B artists that were drawing on sounds of the 70s and 80s R&B music of that time, but applying indie music aesthetics to it. So in the case of the weekend, he would sample Beach House on a song that kind of sounded like Michael Jackson. Like that would be like a weekend thing to do. Around this time, you also had like Frank Ocean was emerging around this time. You know, you've got like Janelle Monet was starting to catch on.

there were also people like how to dress well an active child who are more of their time than the weekend is they didn't take that next step to superstardom but it was interesting just thinking about that era of indie music because I mean you and I have talked about how like

alternative R&B if you want to call it that is one of the most critically acclaimed genres right now if the if not the most critically acclaimed and like FCA Twigs you could put into that category, although, like, this new record, it's not really R&B, it's more of like sort of like an art, pop, dance record to me, but she has been classified under the hipster R&B or

alternative R&B umbrella. And I was interested in just reminiscing about this with you, because, you know, hipster R&B, it has a derogatory sort of judgment embedded in the name. PBRNB is even like more insulting to these types of artists. I think there was a perception at the time. This was during the raucous versus pop-timus wars of the early 2010s, that these artists were sort of catering to indie music fans that didn't want to listen to Beyonce. Yeah, because they felt like, well, I can't listen to pop music. So why don't I listen to these indie-coded artists that are drawing on similar sounds that like Beyonce does or name some other R&B pop superstar at the time.

And it's almost like a prophylactic against like pop music cooties or whatever. And it's an interesting thing to contemplate because that was sort of like the last time where that was true. You know, like where indie fans were going to put up a show of like not listening to pop music because within a few years, I mean, really, that self-titled Beyonce record was 2013. Yeah. She becomes, like, the most critically adored artist on the planet. And that basically continues to this day.

If she's not the most critically acclaimed, she's among the most critically acclaimed. Not just with mainstream critics, but, like, with indie music critics, like, she took that lane over shortly after the whole hipster R&B thing. But I don't know. Like, what are your memories of that time? your impressions of that looking looking back on it oh yeah how to dress well i'll try to vood active child yeah like i was all like sewn i go i i i can go band for band with anyone on the hipster r and d thing because i liked a lot of that stuff was it because i was like a full-time music critic like

really in the inner sanctum of pitchfork or like correlation causation who knows but you know i think it's interesting to kind of view, I think, rightfully, like, PBR&B or Hipster R&B as this discrete thing because, yeah, like sampling Beach House or like doing an interpolation of like Susie and the Banshees on Happy House. Like, they're definitely, Miguel had a EP collection called Art Dealer Sheik. I think there was a definite stylistic integrity to this whole thing. But if you really look at it big picture, if you want to call it little left of center R&B, be or just like kind of alt pop or whatever that's like always been the thing that is most critically acclaimed and you know you could talk about it in the terms of like prince or janet

jackson or madonna or michael jackson like that's always been the true north i think there was just this time in the 2000s where it's almost like an anomaly where like indie rock or like rock music was something that had more critical cachet. And so a lot of these artists did become, you know, kind of the real thing. Like the week, I'll just say like with the weekends, there's kind of irony there because in 2011, that was like the year I stopped drinking and using drugs. And I was super into all those weekend albums. That was like, I guess sort of the thing that like kind of helped me live vicariously. And, you know, I loved all the how to dress Well stuff.

I love Dr. New Vote. And, you know, as time passed, that became like pop, just straight up pop. And I don't think a lot of them had to really change all that much because, I mean, you'll talk about how the weekend changed, but like, you know, he was still getting like 1-0-0-tricks point never. He was, he might have read altered zones. You know what I'm saying? Well, the weekend is one of the things I think is interesting about him is that, yeah,

he still kept afoot in the indie world. and I think he still has that sort of taste to him, you know, a very curated type presentation on his records. But he also embraced Max Martin, you know, with his third record, I guess this is the second technical studio album, which is Beauty Behind the Madness, comes out in 2015. And in my column, I described that as a sellout record. And I meant it as a compliment.

Because I actually think, for me personally, I started to like his music more when he started working with these pop people as well as the indie people. And there was a better mix of the very distinct persona that he has,

which in my column, I was linking him to artists like Lana Del Rey and Father John Misty, who came out at around the same time. Just because, well, one, no one ever talks about him in relation to those artists. I mean, Lana Del Rey, yes, because they've actually

collaborated on in the past, but there was this generation, a micro generation of artists who came out of indie music at around the same time where they were adopting these personas, where it gave them the space to basically, in my article, I call it the power of a theoretical asshole, that all of those artists were able to explore darkness and bad behavior and impure thoughts in their music because they adopted this guys essentially. And I really like that. I really prefer that to what happened later on in the decade in the late 2010s during the Trump era where it felt like indie singer-songwriters were very autobiographical.

And I think those other artists, those early 2010s artists, I think they were also making autobiographical or personal music. I'm putting personal in scare quotes. here by myself that you can't see. But the late 2010's people, it was sort of explicitly. Like, this is me. I'm writing about stuff in my life. There's no character in my songs.

Like, I am the character. And not that there wasn't great music made that way. But to me, I don't know, there's something about what those early 2010s indie artists, that to me, I think, is just more interesting. And I guess this is a way of saying that I wish that the, that the weekend would have been more influential on indie songwriters than Taylor Swift. I mean, I think Taylor Swift

becoming just the dominant pop star and also a dominant influence on the younger generation of singer songwriters because you really see, like, her writing style really became predominant in the late 2010s for better and I think often worse. But yeah, I'm a fan of the theoretical asshole thing.

And I'm saying theoretical, I'm giving the weekend the benefit of the doubt here. I think people actually look at him like an asshole. I mean, there was that whole expose about his show, The Idol, which I don't think is as bad as people say. I'm going to offend the Idol a little bit. I kind of liked it. The Chiefs and the Idol, man. You are on a roll today. I think people jumped on that show.

You know, like Sam Levinson, too, is a bit of a stink to that guy. but I don't know I do feel like I mean any profile you read of the weekend the writer bends over backward to say like how nice he is in real life and this is Abel Tesfay actually I should use this real name here they always talk about like he's like this nice Canadian guy

who is who loves movies and takes long walks and you know he's not this decadent party monster hoovering cocaine every single day. So I don't know if that's PR management or if that's just the writers being real trying to separate him from this character that he's created. But I don't know. I find that interesting. It's an interesting aspect of indie music in that time, I think.

Well, as far as them being a nice guy, I reviewed trilogy for Pitchfork in 2012 and about it couldn't have been more than 20 minutes after the. the review published. I got an email from 40, the producer thanking me for the review. So, I mean, that was like, that was a, that was a pretty cool moment for me. But I do, I, and I, and I really hope after you're done with your U2 and the Strokes books that you do an entire book about theoretical asshole theory, because I absolutely love it because you're, you're correct in that, I think there's also maybe just like a dearth of male pop stars who would take, um, um, you're, um, you're, you're, you're correct in that. Um, I think there's also maybe just like a dearth of male pop stars who would take after the weekend.

I think he kind of stands alone in that regard because like the other male pop artists at his level are like, you know, maybe like post Malone or like Morgan, like people who are country. Or Harry Stiles. Yeah. Oh God. wants to remind you in every song that he's such a nice guy. Right.

And that, you know, we should treat people with kindness and all that stuff. And look, nothing against that. You should treat people with kindness. But, you know, there is something in art that allows people to explore behaviors or thoughts or whatever, lifestyles that you wouldn't do in real life because you'd probably get killed or you lose your life if you did it. And, you know, that's a, that's compelling art. It just is. Bad guys are more interesting than good guys. Yeah.

And I also think that with the, like the link to Lana Del Rey and, uh, you know, Father John Misty, regardless of, you know, like the similarities with their artistry, I think that if you're being a theoretical asshole, there's going to come a time, you know, after the initial praise, but there's going to be backlash where there's going to be, oh, I'm sick of this shit. And if you can outlast that, you will have a real, like, the longevity will be there for you because of what you said. It's like, it's just more interesting.

Like, Father John Misty, I think at this point, especially with Mahash Mishana is, I think he's like good. for however long he wants to make music. Like Lana, the same. I think the weekend has transcended that. And, you know, I think you make another point in your weekend list where I don't think we give people enough credit, like the average listener in terms of being able to separate the art from the artists, you know?

Because I think this happened a lot at the election. It's like, how is it that like all these Taylor Swift fans and these Beyonce fans, like, they could have voted for Trump? It's like, well, you know, I think they're able to like hear a. song and hear it is entertainment. You know what I mean? Not necessarily a model to emulate, which is kind of bizarre that like

the music critic is like getting it wrong more often than the average Joe or Jane. Well, yeah, I mean, there is it is fascinating that the weekend really became huge during an era where the types of songs that he was singing

were like being condemned. Yeah. Certainly critically. You know, songs just about sex and drug use. I mean, there is a lot of songs in the weekend's catalog where he's singing about getting wasted and then having sex. And in these modern times, there are very valid conversations being had about consent

and can you consent when you are under the influence and there's like a Rolling Stone profile, I think from 2015, like where the writer takes him to task for these songs. that he's doing. And I think that's worth exploring, but also at the same time, like they're songs,

you know? These are, I mean, unless these are based on reality, what are we talking about here? These are fictional scenarios. It'd be like saying, I'm going to put Martin Scorsesean director jail

because there's all this violence in his films. It's like, well, it's not real violence. It's a film. And there's a very cinematic aspect to the weekend's music. as well. So, I don't know.

It's an interesting conversation. I'm a fan of his music. I do think that there is a camp quality to some of his, some of his songs. Some of his songs are dumb, you know, like, for sure. Like, Starboy is kind of a dumb song.

He made an album called Kiss Land, for Christ's sake. Right. But, you know, I, some of that stuff I appreciate the dumbness of it because it's also musically I think really well executed

I'm also you know a Michael Jackson fan from when I was a five year old kid and the weekend has given me Michael Jackson methadone more reliably than any other artist so I appreciate him for that

as well like if you want to talk about legitimate darkness listen to Michael Jackson like what's funny to me is that the weekend seems like a nice guy who acts like a monster on record and then Michael Jackson is allegedly a monster who acted like a nice guy on record. And like that is actually much darker. The person who acts like a nice guy but is not and all the darkness is in the subtext, that is actually much bleaker than the weekend doing, you know, whatever he's doing.

Yeah. And I think this transitions quite well to our mailback question. Let's get to our Mailbag segment. We need to do like an all mailbag episode. We have a lot of emails. It's February. We're definitely going to do one. We've actually planned mailbags like the last two or three episodes and they always get bumped because we're probably talking about sports for too long, which isn't a good thing for a music podcast. So we'll get to your emails. But we wanted to do this one from Will in New York, New York. Do you want to read this one, Ian? I feel like it's more directed at you, but we're both going to answer it. Well, I mean, the first line is that I think Stephen is right and Ian is wrong. Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. And in that is in regards to a brand new reunion tour will be very successful. Trump's election signified the depth of cancel culture and people are saying, well, if the U.S. is going to elect a convicted felon to the highest office of the land, I'm not going to deprive themselves of critically acclaimed Indyrock anymore for self-serving moral purity hand-wringing. There's also a debate about whether or not the devil and God are raging inside me is a beloved enough.

album in the Indesphere that would give them too big to fail status. Remember their last album at number one on the U.S. charts. I think they will sell out MSG at the least and in smaller markets they would sell out the mid-sized venues. People want them back. You can't keep a band this beloved down forever. Guys like Ryan Adams and Sun Kill Moon were already in career decline, but science fiction is one of their best albums. Brand new, it's just literally that good of a band. They're not forgettable commercial slop the way to take them back Sunday, say anything it saves the day or all those Terrible Hot Topic bands were They make big, serious indie rock

And I think both of your reviews for science fiction In 2017 helped communicate that We'd love to hear your thoughts Steve's right ones And my wrong ones Will from New York, New York So if you remember we talked about this A previous episode

I think it was maybe The episode before last About rumors that brand new might be mounting a comeback Or doing some reunion shows Nothing has been announced yet so this is all theoretical but we were talking about this and basically

I said that I think when it comes to canceling people the only people that can cancel you are the people who like you and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks doesn't matter how many think pieces run in the media as long as you have the fortitude I guess to ignore bad press if there's an audience there you can make a living and you can play shows.

So I don't know if brand new can do that. I don't have a feel for that. I think the only way we would know is if they announce shows and we see how the tickets go. But yeah, I'll just reiterate that position. I mean, my feeling is that they probably would do okay because of people like Will, I guess. Like he's, I think there's probably people like him

who don't care about the allegation. against Jesse Lacey. I don't know if we want to get into that again. Basically him, was it sexting with underage girls or like cam stuff? Yeah, like sexual misconduct, like kind of grooming type things with a minor. I think we cannot stress that part enough.

So, and this was like in person stuff? Like they met or was this? I think it was largely online. I don't, again, like it's, The allegations are bad and the cancellation felt pretty final. So there's either people that don't care about that or they don't know about it. And I would actually argue probably that the latter group is larger than we probably believe. I agree with that.

Yeah, I feel like with a lot of these stories, you just go out in public. If someone's not online, they may have no idea that any of this stuff ever happened. They're just like, oh, brand new as a band I loved in high school. Like, oh, they coming back? Awesome. Like, I'm on board. Yeah, they probably don't even know they made, like, the devil and God or let alone science fiction. Because, like, at work this past week, there was somebody who is, you know, very much up on, like, you know, Me Too stuff and cancel culture.

And she was, like, so excited that her partner got her tickets to see Ryan Adams. And I'm thinking to myself, like, does she know? Do I tell her? I think a lot of people are probably unaware. But with brand new, I think that, I mean, I cannot like, credibly accuse a sexual misconduct with a minor. I think that stuff might be a bridge too far. I mean, that's like ruined Republican, you know, governor races. I mean, Mac.

Not anymore. Well, Matt Gates, I mean, you look at him compared to Pete Hagsath. But he had other things, too. I mean, it wasn't just that. I mean, and like, look, I. there's a conversation about whether they should come back. Yes. And then whether they can come back.

And I want to set aside the should come back here for a second because that's a different conversation. This is just sort of cold-blooded looking at what the reality is here. And the thing about cancellation, when people talk about this, it's a little weird because we act as though there's like a judge somewhere who bangs a gavel and says, you're canceled or you're not. And it doesn't really work that way. Like, it's an individual choice.

Each person decides, I don't care or I do care. So, and it becomes a numbers game. Like, do you have enough people who don't care that will come to your show or don't know about your past who will go to the show? But it's not like we can just decide, well, this was a terrible crime. So they're not going to be able to mount a comeback. I mean, if there's enough people out there who feel that, He's done his time in sort of shame jail or whatever you want to call it. They're going to be okay.

I mean, there is something else here, too, that's interesting to me because, you know, you bring up Ryan Adams. And like, if you were to ask me, is Ryan Adams canceled? I would probably say yes. But then you look at his career right now. And it's like, okay, he's still putting out like a million albums a year. I think he put out five albums last year. And I was, you know, getting ready.

this podcast. I was dabbling in those records and I occasionally will check in on his albums because I was a fan of his for a long time. Yeah, same. And I'm curious about, you know, what he's up to. And you can go on any streaming platform. You can find his records very easily if you want to buy the vinyl. Very easy to do that. If you want to see Ryan Adams play live, he still tours pretty regularly, either by himself or I think he got the Cardinals back together for a recent tour. I looked at his most recent tour dates, he's playing theaters that are like two to four thousand capacity, somewhere in that range. So basically playing the same venues that he did before said cancellation, the only difference is that no one writes about his records anymore. Like,

that is the difference. And I do think that that's been a very deliberate thing on the part of music publications. Like they've essentially blackballed him in terms of their media coverage. But how different is Ryan Adams from someone like Jay Farrar? Just throwing him out there because he's another Alt-Ccountry guy in his 50s. J-Farar, no scandal with J-Farar R, by the way. J-Farar is great, you know, upstanding guy. But, you know, he puts out records,

he plays shows, he doesn't get covered by Pitchfork or Serial Gum or any of these other sites, or like the Jayhawks, another All-Country Band. No allegations, squeaky clean. You know, they're fine. But they don't get covered either. And it's like, at what point is Ryan Adams canceled? And at what point is he a 50-year-old singer-songwriter who, even people who still go to pay to see him play live,

I think we can all agree his best records came out 20 years ago. Yes. Like he's well past his peak. His self-titled record maybe from 2014, maybe that would be like if you want to be, if you're a hardcore fan, maybe you make the case for that. Ashes and Fire was pretty good. Ashes and Fire is before that one. Oh, right.

Shows what kind of are, like, Ryan Adams super fan I am. I mean, you know, the average 25-year-old music writer, like, do they even give a shit about Ryan Adams or any of other people? I mean, it's really like people like you and me and older people. Yeah. Like, we're the young people probably in that audience. So I'm just saying, like, the cancellation thing, it's more nebulous, I think, than we want to give credit for.

It's not something you can just impose on someone. And when it does happen, it's not like it's a death sentence all the time. You kind of enter maybe this weird phase where you're just not deemed important enough. Like some artists get canceled because they just get older and people don't think that they're relevant anymore. And they haven't done a crime or anything. that they just don't get talked about. Adams is in that conversation, and it is because of that New York Times article,

but it's also because of just where he's at, maybe in his career. Yeah, I think that's a good point because with, like, Ryan Adams and Sun Kilmoon, they're, like, both, they're capable of scaling down rather easily, whereas Will's bringing up, like, brand new playing MSG. And, I don't, like, I'll be,

I think a lot of this is presupposed on brand new, like rumbling that they're going to come back. Like they turned down bamboozle festival in 2023 and the show that people were talking about in Nashville that they did. It was actually like a private family and friends charity event. Jesse Lacey the year before I think did like a solo version of that. So I think it's like beyond like should they come back or can they come back. I think there's the question of will they.

And I think we have to remember just like how final science fiction was. You know, like that was a band that was done. They were tired of being a band. They were tired of touring. They didn't, like Vinnie O'Cardy, the guitarist. Like, he does like ayahuasca and Joshua Tree. That's where he lives now. So I wouldn't, like, I don't know if like the comeback is actually happening to the degree people wanted to.

But, you know what? Like if I think. Don't they need money, though? I mean, like, they're not so successful that they can not just not work anymore. right? I mean, maybe. I don't know.

I mean, I honestly don't know. Like Metallica. There's no, I mean, I feel like maybe they got an office job. Maybe the drummer or the basis, so I don't know the name of like maybe they're like working in an office now.

I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like at some point, I feel like they're going to need money and they're going to get an offer that will be too much to turn down. If there's an audience that is there for that. And it sounds like there is. So I don't know. I mean, I said this earlier, you know, you got to have the fortitude to deal with bad press, you know.

Yeah. Because they'll get a lot of bad press. Like, that will be the worst part of it for them will be the media. The media will go after them. And there will be people online who talk about it too. But, you know, we've seen this. A lot of people are able to just power through that and not care. Yeah.

The one thing I know Jesse Lacey does care about, like from my. what I hear is like his family and I don't know if he would want to put his family through that again. So I think that's the consideration of like will they come back. But if they do, if I had to guess, it would be like, you know, a bamboozle. It would be like when we were young or best friends forever or like a European festival. That would be easier, I would think, than a headline tour. You have the buffer of the festival. I don't know.

We'll see what happens. It's I mean Will, our letter writer He mentioned Trump Right at the top I don't want to I don't want to describe everything to Trump

You know Because that just gets so tiresome But It does feel like There is a little bit of like We don't care anymore Yeah there's a real culture shift And that's not going to be that way forever

It'll shift back at some point but I don't know we're still seeing this unfold I don't know how far that goes but I don't know I wouldn't I feel like they're going to do it

if I had to put if I had to bet money I think that they'll be back but we'll see we will we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something

that we're into this week Ian why don't you go first yeah and I was unfamiliar with a game inclusion on this one I picked Benjamin Booker Benjamin Booker's lower for my fantasy draft because it checked off a lot of like Brittany Howard boxes. You know, it's on ATO.

It's been described as bluesy, but kind of all, you know, I figure it maybe hits the same audience that would be into Idols or Fontaine's DC. You know, I was intrigued by the Kenny Segal production credit, but since I confused it with Kenny Beats, I also assume this might sound like that one Idol's album. Great album. This might be like my favorite of 2025 so far. I was extremely surprised by what it brings to the table. His vocals are kind of like scratchy and low.

It's not quote unquote bluesy. The songs have like great character studies, really insightful songs about like politics and alcoholism. And sonically, it's got kind of a late 90s dreamworks feel where there's like samples and drum machines and, you know, someone I read it described as like Sparkle Horse kind of. Not that far off from like Eve's tumor was doing. doing for doing recently, but I think this has better songs.

Yeah, and again, with the disappointing 81 Metacritic score, the reviews are more positive than the score indicates. Kind of surprise this one isn't getting more run. I like this album a lot, and I think you would too. So it sounds like a record that maybe is going to gain some steam as the year goes on. I don't know how long we can keep an eye on the Metacritic score. if maybe that goes up by the end of the year, but not by the end of the quarter.

Nope. So we'll see what happens. I want to talk about a band that I've been listening to for a while now. I want to say about four or five years. They put on a record like every year, I think. It's kind of the same record every year, but it's a really good record. I always enjoy listening to it.

The band is called Rose City Band, and it's a project featuring a guy named Ripley Johnson, who you may know from, a band called Wooden Ships. Out of San Francisco, he's also in a band called Moon Duo. And in those bands, he's doing this more kind of menacing,

experimental psychedelic rock thing. But with Roe City band, it's a much sunnier, vibe-y-er type experience. You can't get more indie jam, really, than this band. Definitely a little bit of Grateful Dead action going on here, but it's just

these airy guitar mellow jammy type songs that have really cool guitar solos. And again, it kind of sounds similar from album to album. It's one of those things where it's like trying to explain why you love ACDC to somebody or why you love the Ramones. It's like, why they just do the same thing over and over again. But you're like, yeah, but what they do is specific to them. And I can't get that anywhere else.

And they just do it so well. And I would say that about Rose City Band. They put out a record last week. It's called Sol E. Sombra. And yeah, again, it sucks that this comes out in January because this is patio music, like to a T. Like you don't get more patio music, really, than Rose City Band. And my patio is closed until probably late March. Although it is unseasonably warm today as I tape this, it's going to be almost 50 degrees here in the Minneapolis area,

which is unreal for late January. So maybe I'll have to go on the patio, actually, and listen to this record out there for the first time. Otherwise, off the way to the summer, with a beer and a can-cozy and, you know, sunglasses on and all that stuff. So anyway, Roe City Band, really good guitar, jammy, really good songwriting.

Solis Sombra is the name of the record. Yeah, we need to do a future episode on the best unseasonable warmth albums. There's like, yeah, every time, like, it gets like, I mean, granted it's San Diego. It's like, I'm either thrown it on Dodo's visitor or summer teeth. Yeah, it's in the Midwest, like the day that you can roll down your window in your car for the first time is always like a magical day.

And for me, it's Dix Picks Volume 1, Grateful Dead. Here Come Sunshine, Best Ever Live version of that song. That is for me, the rolled down your window for the first time song of all time. That about does it for this episode of IndyCats. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie,

and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.