Indiecast - Let's Talk About Mac DeMarco, Plus: Boygenius and The National Album Announcements

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Today Mac DeMarco releases an album of instrumentals called Five Easy Hot Dogs. How good is it? Well, it's an instrumental album called Five Easy Hot Dogs — you do the math. At the very least, the record was a good excuse to talk about the career and legacy of one of modern indie's most influential artists (32:47). Steve Hyden is a fan though he considers himself more of a "liker" than a "lover" of his music. Ian Cohen, however, has been a vocal critic. What are Ian's beefs? Was Steve able to talk him into re-considering Mac?The opening banter segment covers two of the biggest indie album announcements of the week — Boygenius' The Record (12:28) and The National's First Two Pages of Frankenstein (:26). What's up with that weird National album cover? Why is the Boygenius album cover already meme-able? Eventually, Steve and Ian also get around to talking about the music.In Recommendation Corner (54:43), Ian stumps for an actual book! It's Status And Culture by W. David Marx, which explains how the titular subjects are shaped and formulated. As for me, I shouted out Mercy by octogenarian musical legend John Cale, which includes cameos by Weyes Blood, Animal Collective, and Sylvan Esso.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 122 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indicast is presented by Uprox's Indie Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, we review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the career and legacy of Mac DeMarco. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. I wonder what he thinks of the new national album cover. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? I was so excited when I won the Ticketmaster VIP pre-order. to design this album cover, but it seems like people aren't particularly pleased with my handiwork right now. I'm bummed out. So the National, they announced a new album this week.

It's called... Is it the first two pages of Frankenstein? The first two pages of Frankenstein. Yes, that's the name of the album. And the cover, how would you describe this? It's like a kid. And I'm bringing it up right now.

Do you have it in front of you? It's a kid holding like a head of some sort, like a mannequin head. And I mean, look, we've talked about this a lot on this podcast about how I like a lot of bands who have like either bands, names that I'm embarrassed to say out loud and or terrible cover art. And it's like, you know, sometimes it's both like symbolsy guitars. But I mean, I expect bad album art from like Animal Collective or like deaf tones, you know, bands that maybe are like. are kind of hippie-ish or don't have a great grasp on how tasteful they are. I mean, Matt Berninger was a graphic designer, wasn't he? I don't expect bad album art from bands like The National, right?

Well, okay, is this cover bad, though? I'm going to play devil's advocate with this. So, again, we have the kid. Yes. And the kid is tinted pink, and he's against, like, a gray backdrop. And he's holding a mannequin head, and there's a name tag on the forehead that says Paul. So I don't know if this is Alluding to maybe like a lyric on the record

Maybe that's what it is Or if this is just a purely abstract thing I think it's the font that's bothering people Like it's very 2012-ish You know group love Walk the Moon Like that kind of post-passion pit

Major label indie rock thing going on Well we got to shout out The Indieheads podcast One of the hosts of that show, Maddie Monroe, did a tweet that you're referencing there where he said that this is like a Walk the Moon ass cover, a Cold War kids ass cover. And he runs down a bunch of bands like that. And I saw that tweet and I laughed.

And then I realized, like, I'm laughing at this because I know what he's talking about. But I don't think I've ever seen a Walk the Moon album cover or a Go to the Moon album cover or a group love album cover. I just understand that like, okay, this is maybe the kind of cover you would associate with a group like that. So, I don't know, I just thought that was funny because it's like I get the reference, even though I don't have a concrete reference point exactly for what the joke is. I'm just wondering, like, does something like this have like meme potential, you know,

where there's some quality there? Because we already saw that with, we're going to talk about. about this album in a minute. There's been a lot of big indie release news this week. There's a new Boy Genius album coming out in March. It's their first full-length album. I saw that album cover being memed already because it's like the three of their hands reaching up. And I think it was the double whammy record label. They did a thing like where, you know, they had that cover. They put Pearl Jam at the top in the Pearl Jam 10 font, which of course I especially appreciate I was thinking about national album covers

and I'm actually, I don't think that they have a great batting average shockingly average for like a band who's like known for their tastefulness and their history and graphic design like I mean I'll excuse the older ones because you know very much of the time and no one knew who they were

but I think most of them are like pretty okay like the only ones I don't really I think trouble will find me is just the terrible album cover. And I'm easy to find also kind of in that Cold War Kids like Spotify festival sort of vein as well. But otherwise, I like Sleepwell Beast. I like Boxer, an alligator I don't feel particularly one way or the other, which is fine. But yeah, I just love how like this album cover is just so suspect that it brings their entire

catalog into question. Well, I'll go as far to say that I think Boxer is a really good album cover. I like that cover. I think the Sleepwell Beast cover is quite good. It's got a house on it. If it's got a house on it, I gotta love it.

And it's their studio. It's the April, not April base, that's the Bunny Bear studio. I can't remember if the National Studio has a name. I think it does. But anyway, I kind of like the first album cover, too. Like we're, you know, you've got like the drummer. Oh, yeah.

Shirtless on the cover. That one's great. That one's like, you know, dance like no one's watching type album cover. Brian Devendorf got to shout you out there. But yeah, a lot of their covers have a similar color palette where it's like a white, gray background. And then there's like flashes of color on it. Like that's like the high violet cover. I'm Easy to Find has a similar color palette.

This album cover does. And I just don't really like that color palette, really, for an album cover. They put out a single, too. I guess we should talk about the music as well. What fun is that? Tropical Morning News. Is it Tropical Morning News? No, it's Tropic Morning News.

Yes. I heard them play this song live when I saw them last summer. And also I was listening to some live recordings that were up on the live archive web, live archive website. And I like this song a lot live. And I have to say, I really like this single. I wasn't a fan of their previous record. Like, I'm a big national fan.

But I am easy to find as like the first of their albums that never really grew on me. There's like about five, six songs that I quite like. And the rest feels a little like a rehash of Sleepwell Beast. And it's just like too many songs. on and I think it feels a little overstuffed. Yeah. I really like this song, though. I don't know.

Have you listened to this song? Yeah. It gave me like high violet vibes. And, you know, relative to the recent material, there's like actually quite a bit of guitar on here. There's like an outro guitar solo that I really like, which they were doing on the road. And I'm glad that they kept that and didn't just put like pianos in there, like, which is what they've been doing lately, like these sort of low-key piano ballads, like with

skittering beats. Like that's been the MO. Yeah. So this was like relatively guitar heavy, so I was into that. Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I'm like a big national fan as well. And like, I have no memories of listening not to I Am Easy to find in full. Like, I liked a couple songs on it, but I just figured, I always thought of it as like a soundtrack more than like a proper national album. Plus with all like the guest spots and whatnot.

The new one, it holds serve. I mean, like I feel like more and more like most national songs. feel like they exist kind of entirely in the national world. Like, it's, it's like Matt Berninger, like, putting together, like, scraps of lyrics from, like, older songs and putting them together. And they all kind of, like, still sound like the national. Like, I'm not, like, excited about this in the same way that I was with the Sleep Well Beast lead single, um, or, like, The Trouble Will Fimey lead single.

And I'm not as like, you know, whatever. It's just going to be the national doing national. So I'm like cautiously optimistic. I don't think I'm as like won over by the song as you are, but I also don't have the same background and like seeing them live. I mean, I think this is where, you know, your jam band like, you know, like website crawler background comes in, you know, because like, oh yeah, I heard the boots, man.

I'm like. Yeah, exactly. You got to dig into the boots. Yeah. I have no sense of like what they're. critical standing is at this point. Pigeybacking on your point, they do seem like they've reached a stage

where they're just the national and it doesn't really matter really like what is written about them at this point. You're going to get the usual suspects who make the same points about them being just like a boring dad rock band. And those people come out of the woodwork every time

this band does anything. And then you get the people, and I guess I'm in this camp, we're just going to be amenable to what they do. Yeah. You know, it's like the liberals and conservatives, the red and the blue of the national world, they're going to be entrenched. And then maybe you have the 10% in the middle who are like the independence. Maybe you're in the middle, I guess.

You're like a swing voter with the national where you may go with the red or you might go with the blue. Yeah. I mean, I, God, I mean, from like 25 to 30, this was maybe the most important band in my life. and I just find it ironic that like now that I'm you know a national I'm like the stereotypical national fan or like what they were always seen as which is like you know a 42 year old married guy with like a day job and it's like yeah this music just doesn't hit as hard as I did when I was like 25 and couldn't relate to this stuff at all um you know like I do think that um I'm like totally open to whatever this album is going to bring um but you know for for the past decade I've been a little cool

on the national. I just think that like, you know, like they're going to get like jokes about dad rock and then, you know, it's going to end up being reviewed by people who like them. So it's kind of like in that Wilco world now where, you know, you probably won't see it on too many your end list, but like you won't find like any pans. Yeah, they're an interesting band because more than I would have assumed, they've been around long enough that there are people who prefer certain eras over the other ones. I mean, you would suspect that there'd be people, and these would be the fans around our age that are big boxer and alligator partisans.

But I see a lot of people who are like 2010's national is better than 2000s national. And there is like a contingent out there for whom like this recent era is the era. And because Aaron Desner now has this Taylor Swift Association, I do wonder if this record is going to make a bigger splash. Well, it's got Phoebe and Sufyan and Taylor Swift's on it, too. Okay, yeah. So, and this is the first album they've put out since those Taylor Swift records that Aaron Desner made with her. So I am curious to see how that affects it. Like, if you go see The National now, I feel like if they're going to,

to play like the geese of Beverly Road. There are people who like are going to walk out and get the beer during that song, which which seems incredible maybe for some people to conceive of. But I've been to national shows like we're alligator deep cuts where it was like crickets. Yeah. You know, it's just like a different kind of shifting demographic. Because like I do wonder to what degree the people that love them and the aughts have moved on and have been replaced by a new audience.

It's an interesting thing with them. We have to talk about the new boy genius record that was announced this week. It's called The Record. It comes out in March. It's their first full-length album. They put out that EP. When was that? 2018.

2018. And they're playing Coachella. Yeah, they're playing Coachella. That was like a big deal. That and Jai Paul, if I pronounced that correctly, were like the big movers. Yeah, Jaipal, who's like, does he still only have like three songs or something? He has a bunch of songs, but like no proper albums. That's a whole like other rabbit hole, you know, but yeah, like.

Yeah, we got to do a Jai Paul episode close to that. That's what the people want. But, and Boy Genius, I imagine we'll be playing other big festivals. Yes. They're probably going to do a tour. Right before we started recording, Rolling Stone dropped their. latest magazine cover and it's boy genius on the cover and they're dressed up like nirvana was on the cover of rolling stone it must have been 93 like when they're all but not the corporate

magazine suck cover no the one where they're all wearing suits yes and you know I think it's a funny cover I enjoyed it I know that there'll be people who are like you can't compare them to nirvana man like what the fuck uh and the headline says something like this the super group we need. We need. The royal we. The royal we coming out. I thought it was funny. And it does bring to mind the cover of their EP where they're posed like Crosby Stills and Nash on the cover of their first album. So Boy Genius definitely, they know their music history. They can wink at it as they're

recreating these poses. They released three songs from the record, one from each song writer in the band. And of course, for those who don't know, it's Phoebe Bridgers, Lucy Dacus, and Julian Baker. I like all three songs. This is a group that, like, I could see myself being annoyed by because there is, like, a lot of cult of personality around them, but I like all three songwriters individually. I happen to think that they come together quite well. They are compatible, but they're also pretty different as songwriters, and I think it's interesting how they come together. I do wonder

at what point are we going to reach critical mass with the sort of wistful, sad singer-songwriter sound, which has been so dominant in indie lately. Like this week, you showed this to me, someone was passing around a clip of tune yards.

This happens like three times every single year. And it was basically to say, like, I can't believe that this shit was critically acclaimed once upon a time. And I saw that clip, and I'm not a huge tune arts fan, but it did actually make me a little wistful missing that era of indie, that sort of more antagonistic era. But it also brought home that like the things that are in vogue now are going to seem tired in 10 years. And I wonder at what point are we going to reach that with this sound.

I don't know. I'm throwing a lot of things out there. Do you have any thoughts on Boy Genius at this point? Like, did you listen to those songs? Like, where do you stand with them? I mean, I listened to the three songs. thought they were all very well constructed. I like $20 the most because it's got the scream and it's got like, you know, distorted guitars.

I mean, I think there's like this air of tastefulness surrounding this project, which I find a little bit off-putting. But like I know it's like totally a personal thing. I'm going to like tread on your territory here and like, I don't know, take a little bit of a risk by comparing the writing on these songs to that of White Lotus in that like I know. I know it's good. It's very well constructed, very clever, but also I hear these songs, and I just think of them being screencapped or whatever the musical equivalent is. And it's odd because, like, this is the exact sort of project that should appeal to me as, like, you know, a former, a current national fan.

You know, it's like very singer songwritory. Nothing about this should make me feel old, but it's the exact things that you mention, which is like the parasycial component of like quoting the tweets online and feeling like emotionally invested in like their success as a reflection upon myself. Like I can't generate that for myself. And so for me, this would be like a pleasant singer-songwriter project, which means that the discrepancy between that and like how they're actually received makes me feel a little bit annoyed.

And yeah, I do. You know, the thing about the two yards clip is like, yeah, I kind of miss that too. you know like I miss that um yeah the kind of unpredictability or just like the ability to like look at a piece of music and or hear it and think yeah I can understand why people would not like this just based on the music you know what I mean like I think a lot of the criticism of boy genius is centered around the exact thing you said about like the discourse around it like how many times when we talk about like music here and we like air our qualms or air our annoyances it's it's all always about the discourse or like the people surrounding it, you know?

Well, you know, getting back to like the tune yards comparison, I mean, I think the complaint that people have with a group like Boy Genius, and you could also apply this to the National, is the idea of it being down the line and not having any sort of like abrasive element or an obvious sonic experimentation element, even though I think with the National. there's like a lot of experimentation going on. It's just very nuanced and sort of minute. It's not like a, it's not a brash type of experimentation that you would get with a lot of these artie indie indie bands that existed in the time of tune yards.

You know, I have to say like part of my interest in Boy Genius is sort of the classic rockiness of the project, you know, the fact that it is very easy to liken it to like a Crosby stills and Nash, you know, these three stars coming together and making. a record. And I do think that the things that make each writer unique is emphasized in this project where, like, Phoebe Bridger sounds even more like Elliot Smith in this band. Julian Baker seems even more intense in this project. Lucy Dacus, who I think wrote the best song out of the Boy Genius songs that just were released.

She was my favorite. She really comes across as, like, the most sort of, like, observational writer, most careful writer in a way out of the three. So I like that aspect of it. And, you know, I like to imagine that it is a CSN and sometimes why situation, like where behind the scenes it's very toxic and they're fighting and there's like, you know, all of this drama going on. Even though by all accounts, they seem to get along really well. And they seem like very sort of like a stable unit. I do want them to be more like those bitchy divas in Crosby Stills and Nash who are just at each other's throats like for.

like 50 years. I really like that aspect of it. Wait, I saw that like J-SOM was contributing some instruments. So, like, maybe she's the Neil Young of this. Oh, yeah, that'd be interesting. So it'd be, yeah, I like that. I want a new J-SOM album. Oh, yeah.

Hell yeah. When was the last time? 2019. Oh, wow, okay. So I bet she dropped something this year. Yeah, fingers crossed. Put the money down for that. Can we do like a quick TV cast segment here?

I think we have to. I've been watching way more TV than I have been listening to music, if we're going to be honest. So let's go there. Okay, I got to do a quick TV cast here. We might need it like a TV cast theme song, by the way. Talking to Brian here, we might need like a quick TV cast thing just to separate it from Indycast. If you remember, like last month, we ranked the popular arts where, we had sports at number one, music at number two, cinema at number three, and TV at number four.

Now, you said you're watching a lot of TV now, so maybe you would re-rank that. For me, TV is like a... TV still mostly sucks. Yeah, I hate TV right now. I hate prestige TV the most. It's just totally become a cliche. But there is a show that I fell in love with this month, and I want to be. talk about it. I don't know if you've seen the show. It's on Paramount Plus. So not on one of the major

streamers. Tulsa King. Yeah. Oh, yeah. With Sylvester Stallone, have you seen the show? Okay, so this is like my favorite new show on TV and I've not watched a single episode. I'm going to just get out myself here. Like, one of the things I've been doing with the time that's been freed up by not having a lot of music come out is I'm listening to a Chapo Trap House and they had an episode where they just basically explained the plot of this show, like without embellishment, without any exaggeration, like a lot of Stallone accents. And it's, it was the funniest thing I've heard. Like, I understand, like, Sylvester Stallone's like 75 years old, but like he can kill somebody with a single punch and also women find him sexually irresistible. But it's like kind of

a fish out of water mob show. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, Slai, he plays this like, Maffi, like capo who goes to prison for 25 years and he comes out and his bosses are like, we're going to send you to Tulsa to start up a new business there. And it's not really clear why they're doing this. But they send him to Tulsa and he ends up meeting Martin Starr, who some may know from freaks and geeks. Gilfoyle from Silicon Valley. Yes.

and he's like and uh, star is running like a weed dispensary and Sly comes in and he like takes over the weed dispensary and he starts like doing like other moves around town but then it turns out that there's like a biker gang that runs the town

they run like the nitrous market the little sun's anarchy kind of flavoring in here it's very kind of jam bandy too like the nitrous tanks There's like a big plot about like fighting over nitrous tanks in Tulsa. And like you said, like Sly, I think he's like 76, although he might be playing 75 on the show. And look, Sly looks great. I mean, we should all hope to look as good as Sly at 76.

But yeah, he's still 76 years old. And he's, yeah, killing people with his bare hands. He's like betting women like 30 years his junior. But it's great. It's like such a dumb show, but it's extremely watchable. I love Sly Stallone personally, a magnetic lead actor. All the supporting cast are like people that you've seen in other shows. Like I said, Martin Starr is on there.

You have Max Cassella, who was on Dugie Hauser. Vinnie, right? He was Vinnie Del Pino, right? He was Vinny Del Pino. And then he was on the Sopranos for a while. The Bald Cop from The Wire is in it. he plays sort of like the antagonist in the show

and it's just the show that like you put it on every episode is 36 to 40 minutes so not too long very entertaining no one's going to write a think piece calling it like an incisive social satire of modern day norms

there's pronouns talk on that show though right yeah there's like a pronouns joke it's like okay there's this great scene where Sly's crossing the street and the like the walk sign says like you may cross now

and Salone says to the machine I've been I've been waiting my whole life I've heard like that's the tenor for every single line on this show yeah a lot of dumb jokes but again very entertaining I had like a smile on my face the entire time I was watching it

And yeah, like, you're not going to have people taking it too seriously. It doesn't pretend to be anything more than it is. It's escapist junk, you know, which is what most TV is, but there's like so much crap attached to TV now. You can't just have an escapist junk type TV show, and that's what Tulsa King is. Yeah, Taylor Sheridan, man. Like, I'm surprised we haven't done like a, like, you know, tried to like link that to Man-A-Skey. or whatever that band is who's dropping this week. Like too much indie stuff happened.

We could have easily gone with the, you know, the Taylor Sheridan extended universe. I think Man of Skin would be in there, right? Yeah, we got to talk about Man of Skin at a future day. Their album came out this week, but that might have a long tail. Yes. I think I'm going to write a column about them. Someone wrote a column about,

is this the band that's going to save rock and roll? Give me a break. Let's get to our mailbag segment Thank you all for writing in It's always great to hear from our listeners You can hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com Do you want to read our letter? I do

So this comes from Aaron from the York By way of Iowa Which is kind of a reverse Tulsa King Or Des Moines King or whatever No that's the Tulsa King path because he's wait no No he's from New York via Iowa Not the other way around You're right

You're right. Yes. It's a reverse Tulsa King situation. It's a Dubuque King. Stephen Ian, long time. First time, I'm a strange pay pig that has both an Apple Music and a Spotify subscription, mostly to listen to BandSplain.

Shout out to BandSplain. Yeah, Yassie, give a shout-out. I think we both been on that, right? Oh, yeah. Cool. I've noticed the top five songs for an artist on the two platforms are often different. Anecdotally, it seems like Apple Music's top songs are mostly from the band's most popular album while Spotify's are more like a greatest hits. It got me thinking about the differences

between Spotify and Apple Music audiences and how their listening patterns might affect what music new listeners find. So what do you think? Do Spotify and Apple Music have drastically different audiences? And if they do, how do you think this shapes what music becomes popular on each platform? So is it true? I have both Apple and Spotify as well. Do you have both? I have both. But like, I mean, if we're talking about a Spotify or an Apple Music audience, I guess I'm the audience. But the thing about Apple Music is like I don't feel like part of an audience. It's strictly a tool for me because I use it to consolidate streaming and, you know, stuff I have on my hard drive, such as, you know, like rap mixtapes from like 2005 or the OG Yens Leckman, Night Falls A Recorded Dollar. and the streaming quality is higher.

But like everything else about Apple music, like that would connote an audience such as, you know, like the social component and discovery playlists and all that. It all sucks terribly on Apple music. Like Apple music in a lot of ways is for people who like kind of already know what they want to listen to. And yeah, my taste of, my listening habits have narrowed a lot since I switched over to Apple Music.

So I do wonder, though, like, you know, bearing the question, if there are, like, certain bands or songs that are more popular specifically on Apple music than, like, say, Spotify, like, if it's, like, the VH1 to Spotify's MTV, I think, like, the statistics on Spotify also trend towards, like, younger audiences who want to, you know, follow that the same way they follow TRL or whatever. I don't know. Like I wish I could get the information, like, whether there are certain bands that, like, do really well on Apple Music, like, relative to how they do on Spotify. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I do buy into the idea that Apple Music is the Thinking Man's app in this regard for the reasons that you said that if you have an actual library, you need Apple Music in order to, you know, actually stream it on your phone or wherever you want to stream things. Like for you, it's like rap mixtapes, and for me, it's like Grateful Dead bootlegs and other things I've downloaded over the years. So that's why I have Apple Music. I think Spotify, just as a app, is much easier to use.

You know, Apple music. Apple is pretty buggy. I feel like every month or so, there's some weird thing where it's not sinking my library the way I want it to, which is like the only thing I need Apple Music to do. And they can't pull it off. The social aspect of it is something that I have mixed feelings about because there are times where I'm on Spotify and I'm like, I don't want people knowing what I listen to. Because sometimes I get people on Twitter like,

oh, I see that you're listening to, you know, Ambrosia, the best part of me on Spotify. I don't even know what that is. It's a yacht rock favorite. You should look it up. And I don't want that. I don't want people knowing my business. And I know that you can set it to private,

but I'm going to switch to my Sly Stallone voice. I don't know how to switch it. This modern technology. I've been in prison over here for 25 years. So the social aspect I'm not as big on, but yeah, it's interesting to look at how many Apple music subscribers are actually using it as a streaming app and not just as like a listen to my library app.

Because most of the people I know that have Apple music are in the position that we're in. It's just because they want to play music that they've downloaded. And it's like the easiest way to stream your library that there is out there. But yeah, I mean, I think Spotify in general, and just from like what our listener was talking about,

how it's on Apple Music, it's more, people listening to an album versus on Spotify it's just picking the greatest hits essentially that's kind of an interesting thing I wonder if if Apple Music skews older

if it also skews towards people who listen to albums versus playlists or you know just picking songs that they like yeah I mean for for Spotify the private like that what I would do is like if I wanted to listen to like you know a can canceled artist. Like, I'd have to make sure that was checked off. And, you know, I do, like,

Spotify was good for me when I wanted to just, like, listen to, when I wanted to go, like, deep on, like, hey, I want to hear bands that were kind of similar to the verve, but, you know, not the verb. And then I get, like, just very, very deep into it. You know, Apple Music's, like, fans also, like, component just sucks, like, terribly. So, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, It's, you know, it's a bit of a trade-off. Also, just my life has changed to the point where, like, I can't listen to music for, like, two straight hours. But, yeah, I mean, I just wish there was a third way. I really wish.

Maybe Amazon music is, like, really just, like, completely awesome. It just has, like, such bad PR. All right, well, let's get to the meat of our episode. And I think we might have missed our 30-minute guarantee again. We've been bad with 30-minute guarantee. guarantee. Have we made that guarantee or is that just like kind of a kind of a running gag? Well, you know, we're not going to be sending out checks to our listeners or anything, but, you know, it's a, it's an honorary guarantee. It's a, it's a gentleman's agreement with our audience that we get to the meet before 30 minutes.

But, you know, you got national talk, got Boy Genius talk. Yeah, we didn't even get, we didn't even get into like Wednesday or Arlo Parks. Like, we got like Obama's 2023 playlist, like 75% done. It's not. even the end of January. We don't know that Obama's on the Wednesday train yet. I could see it. He usually puts like a Sharon Van Etten's song or like something along those lines. Like I don't think it's like a, I don't think it's a far leap to assume that might be the thing that he does.

Can I just say by the way, Obama, get out of the music writing business. Wait, who do you think you are? Seriously, tens of millions of dollars in your bank account. You're, your former president, it's tough enough for music writers out here. You got to like a... Like, stay in your lane, dude. Come on. Who's this guy think he is?

I don't know, man. If I, again, this is sort of like the Elon Musk argument. It's like, if you had billions of dollars, like, why would you, like, be on Twitter 24-7? It's like, man, if I had that much money and didn't have to work, I would probably just spend my life entirely based on bullshit. So I kind of understand that. Yeah, well, and look, let's be real. Obama is listening to, like, the same, like, 10 Stevie Wonder songs on, really. Pete.

I mean, he's not listening to music. Which is not a bad move, man. Exactly. You're like, you know, how old is Obama now? Is he in his 50s or is he in 60s yet? I don't know. He's definitely not Tulsa King status right now, but. Yeah, well, yeah, he's an older guy.

I'm just saying you don't need to be dipping into like, you know, you don't have to be listening to like watching Anthony Fantano videos to keep up with the latest music. I just feel like you got better things to do with your time, Obama. Yeah, but Obama's going to be super into like, death grips and Black Country New Road this time if he's really watching Fantano. Well, let's get to our meat. We keep delaying the meat here.

Mac to Marco. This is an episode we've talked about doing for a while because you like to take shots at Mac to Marco. You're not a fan of him. And we have an occasion to talk about him this week because he has a new album out, although it's not really like a proper album. It's a record of instrumentals. It's called Five Easy Hot Dogs, which, If you can say that album title without smiling or laughing,

you're a stronger man than I am, or a stronger person than I am. You know, we were just talking about the National and Boy Genius, big indie stars. Mac DeMarco is a big indie star. This record is really under the radar. I have not heard anyone talking about this album, and the reason is obvious because it's an instrumentals record.

And it's kind of a funny hook for us to finally talk about it. Mac DeMarco because it's not like a major record from him. It really is the kind of record that like no one could put out this album unless you were a big star you know? Like no one would submit this album

as an unknown artist and expected to get released. Like this would be like a straight to band camp type situation. So it's kind of a funny reason to be talking about him. Did you even listen to this album?

I could find. it man like the it's just like one of those situations like yeah we've seen ean shit on this band this artist so we're not going to send him the promo um so yeah i mean i'm like dying to listen to it because i mean i can say that you know regardless of my feelings about mac to marco um you know he's very influential for the reasons we you know will discuss like he has a very distinct guitar tone, which is come up all over the place like in modern music, not just in

indie realm, but yeah, I mean, like you take, it's like kind of Garfield without Garfield. You know, you take away the Mac DeMarco, like, vocal presence and like just the kind of attitude towards it. And I don't know, maybe I'll like it. So, but yeah, I think this is, I think

there's a good reason to talk about MacDamako. I mean, it's a COVID-era album, from what I understand. So, you know, these were things that he was working on, you know, during lockdown. And, you know, it's very pleasant. The music is nice. It just feels like, oh, I would have liked to have heard these turned into songs.

You know, it just feels like this is material that he had in the vault that he didn't actually turn into songs and he's putting it out. It makes me wonder if there's like a full-fledged MacDamarko record coming down the road in this year. And this is just the appetizer, if you will. I would think that. I'd be surprised if he put this out and then didn't. put out a full-fledged record for like another year or two.

It seems like kind of a weird thing to do. It's been a while since he put out a proper album. Like, as you corrected me on a previous episode, I thought it was, you know, this old dog, but it was the 2018 album, I'm going to get this wrong. Is it I am the cowboy or be? Mitzkees was B the Cowboy, right? Yeah. His was something else.

Here comes the Cowboy. That's it, yes. And, yeah, there was a weird backlash against that album, because, you know, he was a weird backlash against that album because people were accusing him of like, I don't know what. Stolen valor or whatever. You're taking cowboy ownership from Mitzki. I want to throw something out to you because, you know, just talking about MacDemarco and where he stands at the moment, because I think he is at an interesting place in his career.

He was obviously, I think, one of the defining indie artists of the 2010s. People, I think, generally would agree with that. He also seems like the kind of artist that I can't imagine becoming a star in 2023. Like there's elements of his persona that seems so unfashionable at this point. You know, it's like he kind of is like the last version of what he was that would have been able to become like a media darling, you know, like the semi-ironic white male dirtbag. I can't see that at all being something that music websites and publications would embrace now.

I really want to get your take on why this guy rubs you the wrong way, but I want to throw something out at you first, my theory on him. And I'm going to make a very specific comparison here to the Decembris. And I'm going to walk with you on this, but yeah, I'm dying. Not at all musical. Not a musical comparison, but this is just something specific to how the Decembris were talked about in the aughts, where you had people who do not like indie rock or indie music who used the Decembrus as a symbol of what they didn't like. And back then it was this sort of bookish theatricality, this, for lack of a better term, like NPR, upper middle class. studiousness, where you're talking about, like, chimney sweeps and sea captains and shit like that.

Like, that was something, if you didn't like indie music, you latched down to the Decembris and you said, this is what I don't like. And I'm going to pile on this band and essentially blame them for all these things I don't like, which of course is unfair. But, you know, you have to sacrifice the lamb, you know, to satisfy the crowd. And that was the sacrificial lamb at that time. And I think for the 2010's, like, Mac DeMarco was that person. Where with Mac DeMarco, it was like, he's this hipster dude who plays low-key, melodic music that's pretty soft and not aggressive. And it's combined with this, like I said, semi-ironic dirtbag persona.

And that's something that you could see in other acts at the time. But it was like MacDamarko was, like, if I want to just rail against what I see as maybe. non-passionate, non-aggressive indie music, MacDemarco is my target. Does any of that make sense as someone who doesn't like MacDamarko? Do you think that that is what he was a symbol of in that era? I really think you stuck the landing on that one because we start out with like, you know, the December is making song, like 20-minute, like song suites about Russian Tsars.

And MacDamarko is like, I like cigarettes. But yeah, I think they both have, they both bear a lot of symbolism. You know, because no one can ever say I don't commit to the bit. I revisited the MacDamarko discography leading up to this episode, starting with two, which was the first one I heard. And yeah, it's like when I listen to, I'm like, yeah, this is everything I don't like. The first, like, I always love revisiting, like, career artists who I just very much dislike during their time after there's, like, enough distance from like the chatter surrounding it or maybe the people who like this music that

like I didn't get along with or no longer in music writing. And two starts out with a song called Like Cooking Up Something Good and it just reminds me not just of like the chill indie stuff that like aggravated me in the early, in the early 2010. But also kind of like a weird G love and special sauce sort of thing going on as well. Um, it kind of horde-torish. Um, so, yeah, you combine those two things. And also the fact that, you know, like, MacDamarko became this cause celebrity amongst people who during, especially like the peak of MacDamarko, like, two and salad days, like, were totally against, like, the stuff I listened to. It was hard not to be resentful about that.

Like, um, our pal, Larry Fitzmaurice wrote a substack on his, uh, page. last donut of the night where he talks about how if you're in the music business, if you're a music writer for long enough, you get this kind of brain rot where you're just like seeing chess moves in advance of like your other fellow writers, especially if you have to write

for a publication where you have editors and whatnot. And, you know, Mac DeMarco just struck me as like the epitome of like things that were being elevated over the shit that I like. So it was hard not to be resentful. And especially because there was like, like you said, this kind of like dirtbag, oh, who me persona. I don't think we, I don't think we can really over-exaggerate how influential MacDamarko was,

not just as like musically, but as a style icon. I mean, did you ever get a sense of that? Oh, yeah, yeah. The, you know, the ball cap and like the, you know, the loose fitting kind of. Our hearts, yeah. Yeah, like you said, the cigarettes and where it's like, you know, It's a dirt bag, but a dirt bag with a heart of gold type thing where, like, you said, like, the, you know, like, the who me type thing. The gap tooth was also a big part of it.

I mean. Yeah. Like, and it's interesting with him because, I'm going to make another comparison here that won't make sense initially, but I think in a very specific way holds water, which is, in a way, I feel like Mac DeMarco is an indirect influence on. Phoebe Bridgers in the sense that if you listen to Phoebe Bridgers music, it's sad, it's melancholy, there's a melodic element to it, that's pretty much divorced from how she presents herself on social media or in interviews where she's really funny and brash and has almost like a California dude type, like lilting her voice. If you've ever interviewed Phoebe Bridgers, the way she talks versus the way she sings,

I won't call it in Congress because most people are like that. They don't talk the way they sing. But with her, it seems like a little more pronounced because, again, you get an Elliot Smith vibe from her music. But like in person, she's more like a Jeff Spacoli type person. Yeah, lifelong L.A. person, you know? And very charming in that regard. She's very fun to talk to. and DeMarco has a similar thing where if you just listen to the music, there is a sensitive, low-key, melodic aspect to it that doesn't really line up necessarily with the way he presents himself.

I have to say that, like, I've always liked MacDamarko without quite loving him. You know, I came on board with the same record you were talking about before, too. and it is funny how he backdoored a lot of 90s and aughts frat guy music into indie music. You mentioned G-11 Special Sauce. You know, there is like a little Dave Matthews in there. A lot of Dave Matthews, yeah. And like, even like, you know, stuff like Jason Moraz or something like that. I mean, there is like a little bit of that, like in the strummy kind of like good time.

We're hanging out on a beach type music, although I guess in his case it'd be like we're hanging out on someone's like fire escape in Brooklyn or whatever. Like some grimy-ass couch. Like this is just like straight up to me. Like I'm thinking of like college dorm. You got like the poster of like Tyler the creators goblin on the wall. Right. This is like I think it's like the 10 year anniversary stuff of 2013 I'm seeing lately,

which makes me realize like this and like odd future are almost like the Pink Floyd poster or like the John Belushi college poster. Yeah, like we're just going to need like very different benchmarks on which to talk about the college experience. I think that the critical record for him is the one that comes after to, which is salad days that came out in 2014. Apple Music calls that the essential album of MacDamarko. You know, I know that you're a chill wave fan and I feel like that's the album where you start to get more chill wave type elements. It's not a pure expression of that aesthetic, but there is something. something, you know, sort of faded and blurry and nostalgic about his music, where like a chill wave record, it feels like you're listening to something from the 70s, but like on a

fifth generation cassette tape, you know, it's like a little warped, but it has a lot of the same, a lot of qualities of older music. And I like that record quite a bit. Again, I think with Mac DeMarco, like, I'm always drawn in by the music of what he does. Lyrically, it's a little It hasn't really reached me And I think that that's what prevents me From getting fully on board In the way that I am for like say Father John Misty Right

Is on a parallel track with Mac to Marco In a lot of ways But I think the lyrical element With Father John Misty is what pushes him ahead for me Whereas with Mac to Marco I like salad days I like to This old dog which came

That's the record after Salad Days I like that record it never quite moves beyond pretty music for me into something deeper. So that would be my thing, but definitely like it more than you do. Did you ever get into salad days? I feel like that aesthetically would be more than your wheelhouse than two would be. The thing about when you mentioned chill wave is like the stuff I like from that, like there was just more of like a just the profound sadness and early stuff like that

with like Tour Mouin or like neon Indian or, you know, washed out or. or did I already say washed out? Probably not. I might have. But yeah, I think that just the thing that stands out to me about Mac DeMarco, as far as, like, personality that comes across, I remember interviewing Tim from Stranda Oaks back around the time that, you know, this old dog came out. And he said, and again, Tim is very much on our way blank that he wishes he had Mac DeMarco

to listen to when he was growing up instead. in Nirvana, which I guess kind of, you know, loops full circle with the Rolling Stone cover because, like, he'd be a lot happier. And you know what? Like, I think that you said, like, Mac DeMarco is kind of the last of his kind. At least in indie rock, that's the case. But, like, I see Mac DeMarco is a massive influence on these guys who are super popular on Spotify, but, like, don't get covered in indie music.

Like, you know, Rex Orange County or still woozy or, you know, know, day glow bands like that. Like, MacDamarko, or glass animals for that matter, you know, I think that like he's become just like super influential, not just as like musically, but that kind of, hey, we're young and let's just kind of chill out rather than being like young and like sad and angry. I mean, I think there's sadness in Macdemarco's music, but, um, I don't know. I would say that, uh, you know, I just can't come around to this sort perspective. I engage with this music and I think about the way other people describe emo to me, which is like I've never felt this way in my entire life. Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's the last of

his kind musically, but I think the way that the kind of star that he was in the 2010s, it just seems like in this current, like, media environment, I don't see like how someone like him would get as much coverage and as much love as he did. 10 years ago. You know, we're in a media environment like where, like, the happy go lucky white male dude who just wants to have a good time is going to be treated with a lot more skepticism. And you can debate on whether that's warranted or not. But it makes me wonder, like, what is Mac to Marco's path going forward?

I'm curious to see, is there going to be a shift with him where he's going to have to present himself in a more mature, and I'm put mature in quotes? type guys, you know, moving... Because, I mean, does that make sense? I just, you know, like, that kind of guy who's going to be covering, like, puddle of mud songs on stage. Are you saying that he's, like,

the Tulsa King of Indy Rock, where he's, like, coming back after four years, like, hey, what the fuck? No one wants to make songs about hot dogs and cigarettes no more. I think what he's going to be, like, is... You use Father John Nisti as, like, an example.

Like, I think we also mentioned that Father John Nisty he had one of the more memory hold albums of 2022. If there's all, there is an, like a constantly renewable supply of people who's experienced with like indie rock like peaked at 25 or 30. And they're just going to like the same people that they did then.

Like, and I think that could be the case with like Mac DeMarco. Like he'll be around and every couple years, I'll put out a new record and it'll, you know, there'll be some jokes. And, uh,

but it'll be just generally positively received. and it'll be, you know, a touchstone for people who just kind of haven't kept up with Indy Rock in that time since. And you know what? Like maybe the trend will come around where like, you know, Boy Genius out, Tune Yards and MacDamarko back in. And then at like 55 I'll be able to like talk about indie rock again. I wonder if there's a path forward for MacDemarker where he becomes like the indie millennial slash zoomer Jimmy Buffett. You know, like where he's just going to have that kind of audience. And maybe he just gets bigger and bigger as he gets older.

Because, you know, I'm going to go the other way on my point before. You know, because the critical reaction is just one aspect of it. There's the popular reaction. I do think that there is a market for, I'm just a good time guy. We're going to have some good time jams. Yeah. Let's all sing together. Maybe he's going to be, there's going to be like DeMarco heads out there.

or they'd be salad heads I guess they'd be salad heads yeah I guarantee there's already like a name for like the MacDamarko contingent you know like it like hot like hot dog heads I don't know what it is but like I am not at all worried about like MacDamarko's future prospects just so long what what I hope he does is he actually continues to like rip off like MISCy you know like Mitzkeye album titles like this next album is actually called like Laurel Heaven or something like that. I just think that is so indicative of like how the discussion of like Indy Rock goes now in 2022 or what have you compared to like 2014 and that like you know there's always been like some sketchy stuff like in his orbit. But like the one thing that made people turn on him more than anything is like the implication that he was like trying to like run a foul of Mitzke. Yeah. Laurel Heaven. We dare you to do it, Mexico.

to Marco, we dare you. Burry me at Makeout River or something. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, what you go first? So I mentioned that, you know, I haven't been up to speed on a lot of new music. I've spent a lot more time listening to TV, podcasts, and one particular book that I read during, you know,

the kind of lull of January is by David Marks. It's called Status and Culture. And it's a book that explains, like, without really embarrassing itself, which is a major feat, how a lot of trends in culture, fashion, music, etc. Had this, like, deep-seated anthropological drive where we all seek status. And this is how, you know, a lot of trends filter up from, like, the lower margin society or that elite people, like, do trends and people follow them.

You know, there's a lot of quotes from, like, you know, philosophers like Hannah Arendt and Ludwig Wittgenstein, but also, like, Jeff White. and Dan Ozzy. It's a nice little combination of like highbrow, lowbrow, middle brow, and so forth. Pitchfork's zero point zero review of the Liz Fair album gets mentioned. And it, you know, it just plays really well with a lot of the stuff we talked about in this episode about like why certain trends come in, why certain trends go out and how, you know, regardless of like how you feel about a current moment in cultural history, it's going to cycle back to something else. But also, you know, it kind of wisely talks about.

about how the internet has like more or less made taste irrelevant and how that's actually bad for culture. Just pretty interesting text. So yeah, let's read a book. I don't know, man. That's a lot of work. I mean, I have all these yellowstone episodes that I haven't watched yet. We've got to keep up for TV cast. He does not mention the rise of the Taylor Sheridan an extended universe. So maybe there needs to be like an addendum. Well, I want to talk about an album by an 80-year-old man because I am the person on this show who talks about music made by 80-year-olds.

And TV shows made by 80-year-olds. That's true. I'm just totally going for the, is that Octogenarian? Yes. If you're 80. He's fucking nailed it. Nailed that one. Anyway, this is an album called Mercy and it's by a legend named John Kale.

Of course, you may know John Kale from a little. little band called the Velvet Underground. Of course, he's had a very illustrious solo career, and he's produced many great records by artists throughout history. This new record has a lot of indie rock people on it. You have Wise Blood, Animal Collective, Sylvan S.O. But it really does reflect his restless artistic personality. I mean, if you know anything about John Kale, you know that he's not someone who's going to sit in one place. And this is just a weird, artie, cool sounding record. It's the kind of album,

and I don't want to gross anyone out, but it's like, I was listening to this record, and I'm like, I bet John Kale has sex to his own music. Because this is just like the kind of music that you would imagine playing like in a David Lynch movie while there's like some weird act of copulation going on.

It just has that kind of goffy, sultry quality to it. So it's a really cool record. And again, look, as the 80-year-old music, corresponded on the show. I'm always inspired by artists who find a way to reinvent themselves even after they've proven

everything that they've needed to prove in their career. And it just shows again with John Kale. He's one of those artists who is just going to keep exploring even as he, well, not even entering his Twilight Years. He is in his Twilight years,

but judging by this record, he's going to outlive us all. So definitely check it out. It's called Mercy by John Kale. Really cool record. Thank you all. for listening to this episode of Indycasts. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the

Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.