Indiecast - Let's talk about Nirvana's 'Nevermind' at 30

Episode Date: September 24, 2021

Today, September 24th, marks 30 years since Nirvana released Nevermind. In the last three decades, people have already said pretty much everything there is to say about the Washington grunge outfit, but that isn’t going to stop Steve and Ian from reminiscing about one of the biggest rock albums of all time on this week’s episode of Indiecast. Nevermind is an album that still holds up after thirty years, despite its oversaturation on rock radio and elsewhere. But it’s the rare breakthrough album that might have almost become underrated, overshadowed — at least in the critical sphere — by what came next for Nirvana. The band’s third album In Utero is now understood as a response to fame, while their Unplugged performance has evolved into a poignant, dramatic artistic statement that holds a whole new weight in the wake of Cobain’s death. In this week's Recommendation Corner, Ian is plugging the latest from One Step Closer, a new signing to esteemed indie label Run For Cover Records. Steve wants everyone to check out Wilds, the new LP from Andy Shauf out today.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discuss the 30th anniversary of Nirvana's Nevermind. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. Here he is now. Entertain us. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? Well, above all else, what I'm thinking about is how to enhance the Indycast listener experience. I mean, that's really always number one with a bullet on my mind. And, you know, I hope so. I mean, what else will we hear for? That and also to figure out what to do with our intern who exists and is very real. So I think the next logical step beyond the Twitter account and having the email

address is to really get like an emergency hotline for Indycast listeners for things like, for example, the Wrens more or less announcing their breakup in a New York Times. article that kind of came out of it. Yeah. I mean, if, if that's not a reason to have, like, people on call 24-7 to deal, to have, like, our 40-year-old fans process this news, then what else are we really here for? Indie, aging indie fan Twitter, reeling this week over this news.

And for those who didn't see it, you know, the Rends have been at work on the follow-up to the Metal Lands. their 2003 masterpiece. We can call that a masterpiece, right? It's a great record. And it was reported this week that Kevin Wheelan has split off from the rents and he's going to basically take the songs

that he had made for this Wrens record that's been in the works for many, many years and he's going to put out a solo record in December on subpop. And his new band is called It's a Eon station. Yeah, it's an A-E-O-N. I think it's A-O-N.

I think about A-O-N, because, like, I'm trying to think about, like, A-O-N flux that show on Liquid Television on MTV. By the way, if Liquid Television or MTV mean anything to you, you're probably in that demographic that could have used the Indycast hotline to talk about the RENs. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, it's like mixed news, because on one hand, it appears that the Rens are over, or at least as we previously knew them. But on the good side, it looks like this album is coming out.

And I actually, I received a promo of this record. It is currently sitting in my iTunes. So I've listened to about half of it. So it definitely exists. If this album doesn't come out, I might have to just bootleg it to send it to people. But it is out there. But, yeah, the Wrens, as far as this record that they've

working on forever. It's hard to know like where we're at with that. I interviewed Charles Bissell who's like the other big guy in the Wrens in January. He played me some songs that he had been working on. So presumably he'll either do a solo record or he'll continue on as the Wrens. I mean that appears to be

unclear at this point. If nothing else, if none of these records actually come to pass, we can use the Indycast hotline to like leak them. You know, we could play it over the phone in a very, I didn't like bands used to do that in like the 90s or whatever, like that's how you can hear a new song? I think like Wu Tang did that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, from reading that New York Times story, it seems like the issue is that Charles is this very exacting perfectionist, maybe somewhat uncertain artistic sensibility who just wants to work on songs forever. and finally after

you know almost 20 years Kevin was finally like okay I don't want to wait anymore like it was I wonder I mean it seems like there was a lot of patience there and then suddenly there was not

so you know look I've interviewed Charles I've interacted with him he's a really nice guy he's a great songwriter I hope that he figure something out with this record and you know he's going to put it out in his own time

but But, yeah, I'm curious to find out, like, what is going to happen with his part of the Rens record. I remember I was interviewing him, and he was talking about the Rens record having, like, a concept tied to, like, Homer's, like, Homer's, like, Homer. I thought you were talking about, like, something Simpson's related, like, as if the, as if the Rens could do anything more to endear themselves to, like, the Indie cast demographic. No, this was like, I'm talking about the Simpsons of like, you know, I don't know when the, the idea was that. Yeah, it really cleaned up on like the best books of like 500 AD, you know, that. Yeah, right, exactly.

The 6th century. It killed back then. You know, I was thinking about the Wrens, again, you know, obviously when the story came out. And I was just thinking about the phenomenon of like, work-a-day slubs who don't look like rock stars who have day jobs who end up achieving a measure of indie fame and you know the wrenzer example of that one of my favorite bands guided by voices was an example of that and um is that at all possible now like are we totally beyond the point where like a 37-year-old person who you know works at the bank just drive

drops like a masterpiece that blows everyone's mind. And they're like, wow, this could, this could have been the guy that works in the cubicle next to me. And now he's getting best-deme music on pitchfork. I mean, are we totally past that as a possibility? I mean, if you're talking about like 37-year-old, like, dudes who look like Robert Pollard or any of it, like, the rents, yeah. But like, then again, every single indie person, you know, maybe aside from like the elite have a day job. It just probably doesn't look like the 90s version where it's like someone from, you know, Seacoccus, New Jersey or Dayton, Ohio who, you know, like kind of have that thing. What it might be is that like someone who's like 35 years old and like, I don't know, works for some sort of graphic design type thing.

You know, like I think that sort of concept is falling by the wayside. But I think that's kind of why we hold on so tight to bands like guided by voices and the Wrens. I really do think they're a kind of last of their kind sort of act. And also they make songs about that too. Like the entire rent, the Meadowlands is about being in this like, you know, failed band and like wondering like what the heck you're doing with your life.

And I'm like 23 years old in law school listening to it. It's like, yo dude. Yeah, I'm really, this is about me somehow. I mean, you make a good point about how the majority of indie bands now have some sort of new job. But it seems like people don't make that part of their image or persona that like I'm just this work-a-day person who also makes records.

Like what if foxing was like, hey, because I don't know what those guys do. They definitely had to, I mean, if you followed their, they definitely had. I'm sure they do. But like, what if, what if that was foregrounded into their narrative as much as being a school teacher was for Robert Pollard or as much as the day jobs of the people in the rents have been put into their narrative? I feel like in a way, that's like not a bad PR move. I'm giving free PR advice out there to indie bands.

Maybe talk about your offstage life a little bit more, and people will relate to you. I think that there's this idea that if you talk about your day job, that it's unrock and roll or it's not very glamorous that it might detract from your music. Yeah, it demystifies, you know, like the... But I think there's something kind of appealing about that to the average listener, because in a you feel like, well, that could be me. I could have been in this band. I relate to this band because they work the same kind of job that I do.

Am I wrong with this? Because I like this idea of just like average people with jobs, and then they make a great record. There's something kind of cool about that. I think so too, but I also think that there is so much pressure to be relatable, like via Twitter or Instagram. Like, there are many, many ways to do that. And, you know, maybe it's not like, oh, I work this kind of blue,

collar type job. I mean, that, like, some bands absolutely do that. But, like, I just think that it's, it's kind of tough to write about that sort of thing without, you know, maybe trying to sound like Bruce Springsteen. Well, you do say to in interviews, though. You wouldn't have to write about, because, like, Robert Powell didn't write about being a teacher. No. But, like, every interview with him talked about that. Yeah, he talked about, like, everything else in the world, but, like, never that. Right. Like, you know, yeah, he's writing about, like, kicking elves and, you know, games of pricks. Yeah, very, very, very, very, really. relatable stuff, you know, and I hear that, I'm like, yo, dude.

But like, it's not the lyrics, it's the interviews. It was like his persona, like, what he presented to the world, that he was just this beer drinking dude from the Midwest who, you know, again, could have been you. Like, you look at him and like, oh, I could have been that guy except he's way more talented than I am. I'm just saying, like, if you're a band out there and, like, your side gig is, you know, you're, like, welding on the side. Like, that's your job.

Like, in Flash Dance. The woman in flash dance is a welder. Maybe drop that in some interviews. I think you might get some buzz from that. It's like, wow, this guy, like this person welds, and they also write hooky indie rock songs. This is my person. Yeah, indie cast core, like, well known for being, like,

underrated by the mainstream press. Like, we're giving advice on how to break through. I love it. I'm just saying, free advice to all the musicians out there. Do we want to talk about the brewing machine gun Kelly? slip-not feud? The only thing that, I mean, this is funny on numerous levels, because I think

both sides are getting great shots. I just love how... Do you know the details? Yeah, I'll explain here. So apparently, like, I love that this is like my, you know, this is my detail on the Indycast. banter.

But what happened is, so apparently Slipknot back in, earlier in the year, like, took a shot at an unnamed person who fails in one genre and go goes into rock, obviously talking about Machine Gun Kelly. So at Riot Fest this past weekend, Machine Gun Kelly's on stage playing against Slipknot. And they, you know, he talks about like, I don't want to be like some 50 year old asshole in a mask looking pathetic and obviously about Slipknot. And then, you know, war of words ensues apparently like Machine Gun Kelly said that Corey Taylor, Slipknot tried to record vocals for one of his albums.

They turned it down because it was so bad. And then Corey Taylor was like, no, you loved my shit. and, you know, I just didn't want to be controlled and so forth. And he produced receipts. He produced receipts and the parlance of the times. So my issue is, like, look, obviously I like slip not a lot more than Machine Gun Kelly, but I just get, I have to laugh when people talk about, like, Machine Gun Kelly being this, like, interloper who sullied the integrity of Pop Punk, you know.

It's like, no, man, like, I don't even think he's from Long Island or something, you know, or he, like, it's got to be real pop punk, like newfound glory. Like, for, I could care less, like, whether Machine Gun Kelly is, like, you know, doing terrible, like, pop rap or terrible pop punk. I mean, to me, you know, like Bob Dylan, he switched genres. The Beastie Boys switched genres after the circle. Wait, so you're comparing Machine Gun Kelly to Bob Dylan. I am absolutely comparing Machine Gun Kelly to Bob Dylan and the Beastie Boys.

And I think everyone else should, too. If you get nothing else from this episode of Indycasts is that I think of Machine Gun Kelly on the echelon of these artists. Well, and Machine Gun Kelly, he did go electric, if you will, at Riot Fest. And people were just tearing their hair out over it, or at least Corey Taylor was. Look, I don't really care about the authenticity of Machine Gun Kelly, but I love that Cory Taylor cares and that he's taking shots at him. When I used to do my rivalries podcast, we did an episode on the M&M. versus Machine Gun Kelly rivalry, because there was some jawing back and forth going there. And that seemed one of those situations where Machine Gun Kelly was clearly taking a shot at a top dog to elevate himself.

It was very mismatched. This actually feels a little more even to me because, you know, I think Corey Taylor's legacy is obviously much richer than Machine Gun Kelly's. What is it? Well, Slipknot as a band, I think has a better legacy than Machine Gun Kelly, right? I mean, when you say that? Yeah. Like they're more important than Machine Gun Kelly. I don't know.

At the current time, I'd say, like, Machine Gun Kelly is, like, one of the biggest pop stars in existence. Well, that's what I was going to, I was talking about legacy. Oh, legacy. I was talking about the past. Ooh. Well, with our intentions fans being what they are. Let me finish my sentence. You're not letting me finish my sentence.

I said, the legacy is better for Slipknot, but Machine Gun Kelly is obviously the bigger star right now. going back to my original point about them being a little bit more even than the M&M machine. See, you're so quick to defend Machine Gun Kelly here that you would not allow any slander in my previous statement there. What have I become? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. Machine Gun Kelly, though, he's got some jams. He's good.

You know, I'm just, I was just trying to lay out the point here that I think they're even, you give the history to Corey Taylor, you give the relevance now to Machine Gun Kelly. Yes. I'm hoping that this plays out more. Very evenly matched fighters. It's like a classic brawl, you know, two contrasting styles.

Is it weird that we haven't talked about with the Fujis yet? I mean, I think this is actually like the biggest news of the week. Yeah, I thought this tour, this reunion tour, like, okay, first off, we have to mention the fact that like the Fuji reunited and the rents can't get their shit together. Apparently the show happened last night. I thought it was like in the future that the Fugis were going to tour, but it happened last night.

I don't think it was a tour or it was like a, I think it was like a New York like secret show. Okay. To drum up publicity type situation. Well, it started three and a half hours late apparently. So that's how you know you're getting like prime era Fuji's. Like, God. I mean, look, I love the score. I listened to it this past week.

relive being on the school bus in high school. And I mean, at no point during the 90s did I ever think, God, it would be awesome to see this live, you know? And just with like, I think like now after all this time, like Lauren Hill seems to have had the most level-headed career afterwards, you know, like Wyclef, I think he ran for president of Haiti. He got like super jacked. Also, we got to, I don't think we mentioned this,

Wyclef trying to burn his guitar is easily the funniest part of Woodstock's 99's documentary. Oh yeah. I know I was a little disappointed that there wasn't more like Wyclef discourse in the aftermath of the film because him doing the Star-Spangled Banner and then him trying to

set the guitar on fire and then I think he tried to smash the guitar. Yeah. And the guitar was fully intact I think after all of that abuse. You know, we haven't mentioned Praz yet. Like what's been what's what's, what's what's been doing since like ghetto super

star that's like the last prize maybe he's the guy who's like work in a blue collar job you know like maybe he is but also like John Forte was another guy in Fujis he like went to he got like pardoned by

a president or something like that what? Yeah John Forte has had the most bizarre life after that like he got arrested at like the airport for like having a million and a half dollars of liquid cocaine.

He did a duet. As one does. Yeah, he had an album that had a duets with Herbie Hancock and Carly Simon. He got his prison sentence commuted by George W. Bush. Oh, man. Yeah. See, I think I'd love to see a documentary on the Fugis that also looked at their post-score lives.

But, yeah, this tour, though, I mean, I don't know how. much faith you would have as a ticket buyer for the show that it would actually happen because it just seems like it's not even like when Guns and Rose is reunited and you just had one Axel Rose. I feel like there's at least two Axle's Rose. Yeah, Axles Rose. Because, I mean, I don't know where Lauren Hills had at. Is that, I mean, she's been, I mean, you said she's had the most level-headed career. I mean, that's relatively speaking, of course.

And, yeah, and then Wyclef, I just, it just seems like a lot of combustible chemicals put back together that if you, like, if there's, if they hit like any rock in the road, the truck is just going to explode. I mean, but I don't know, who knows? I mean, maybe they went to therapy or something and they got all the issues resolved and this is going to be smooth sailing. Like, are they doing arenas on this tour? or large theaters I wonder what the audience is I would imagine that there's like a good older nostalgia audience that would be really into this tour

I mean it's like there's not a lot of dates on this tour there's like they're playing the state farm arena they're playing the forum in L.A. So it in the United Center so it looks like they're going to be like basketball arenas. Yeah. And also playing somewhere in Nigeria,

Ghana, London and Harris. Where's the State Farm Arena? The State Farm Arena is in Atlanta, Georgia. Okay. Should I have known that? Is that like a famous... No. Is that the old Omni or did they tear down the Omni? I remember the Omni. Yeah, I don't know. I think maybe that's where the Hawks play now or something like that. Yeah, yeah, no, that's where the Hawks play. I think it was called... It replaced the Omni. And then it was called some... I've been there. I shouldn't know what this shit is called. Yeah, you're, yeah, you lived in Georgia for a while. I did. Oh, you used to the Phillips Arena, the Phillips Arena. That's it. Yeah, so I'm sure you got some

dead bootlegs from there. Yeah, well, no, the dead would have played the Omni. I think, uh, maybe dead and co, though, have played state farm arena. You know, we'll have to, uh, see, we're talking about this because Ian and I are going to start a new podcast called Basketball Arenacast. We just talk about basketball arenas. It's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. Let's get to our mailbag segment. And this is a question actually we were going to do last week and we ran out of time.

Yes. And we decided to save it because it seems like we're going to have a lot to say about this question. So it's good to be able to expound on it. I think it ended up in like our episode description. Yeah, we got caught out for that. Yeah, we did. That's proof that people really are paying attention. Well, that was the intern's responsibility to get that squared away, and there was a severe talking to about that issue.

I feel like you should read this question. Okay. I think it's directed at you, or at least it says so in text. It's about brand new, so. Oh, man, there you go. The first line, like this question may be directed towards Ian. I mean, so there you go. But would love your thoughts as well, Steve.

But what can or should be done about brand? brand new. Is there any realistic scenario where the band can come back and exist in some capacity in the music community? For context, I was in high school in the mid 2000s, had an unhealthy or healthy diet of drive-through, vagrant and victory records. By the end of college, he phased out that stuff for 90s alt rock and modern indie rock, with the exception of brand new. I can take or leave their first two records, those being your favorite weapon and Deja Entendue. But the other three I've listened to throughout my 30s. They seem to age better than any of their contemporary scandal aside and music holds up.

I can't help but listen to the devil and God are raging inside me around Halloween each year, just perfect vibes. That's a big aside, by the way. You're yadi, yadi, yadiying the scandal there. But at any rate, yeah. So the question, like, could they drop unreleased songs with the proceeds going to charity or something similar? Or, in your opinion, is the press surrounding Jesse Lacey, too bad for them to come back from?

Or is brand new remaining in a permanent state of flux the most brand new way for them to go out? That's from Daniel location undisclosed. Yeah, he did not say. He's in the Indycast mailbag relocation program. Yeah. So he's basically asking, can brand new ever be uncanceled? Uh-huh. Is the question.

And, you know, we've talked about this recently in regard to Ryan Adams. You know, there was that Ryan Adams article that came out over the summer that it seemed like it was about putting off feelers out there, in terms of like how much sympathy is out there for Ryan Adams and the answer is not much apparently. I mean, I'll let you dig into this. I mean, my feeling on brand new is, well, two things. I think that cancellations tend to stick the most in scenes where it's easier to police, you know, the scene essentially. I think of like power bottom being the most complete cancellation of all time where you can't even like find their records anywhere. They've been like wiped off the face of the planet.

And it's because they came out of this punk scene where essentially because of what was reported about them, there's no way any label or venue would want to work with them because, you know, the fans in that scene take accusations like that very seriously. Whereas maybe in other scenes or if someone's like a really big pop star, it's much harder to police. And you end up really with like a lot of people who may not even know what happened. And I wonder, like, is brand new big enough where, because certainly there's a lot of people out there who will never listen to brand new again. Yeah. And do we need to get into what was reported about Jesse Lacey? I mean, do people know that?

Just the idea that he was exploiting fans essentially. Yeah, like grooming and. You know, like, I mean, it's all very terrible, very documented, very corroborated, very credible. It seemed like it had gone on for a long time. Yeah. But, like, I wonder, because I feel like if they were to come back, it would be with people, an audience that either doesn't care about that stuff or doesn't know about it. Yeah. Like, people who are not online, maybe they like this band years ago and they still listen to the old albums and they haven't kept up with the news.

Which is that is a very real, you know, sector of the population because it's larger than like it seems if you're online all the time. I know. I know. I know. I mean, I've had situations in my job where I've had like, you know, patients come and wearing a brand new t-shirt. And this is like in 2019. I'm like, should I have a conversation with this person? But, yeah, I mean, as you were saying, like, aside for maybe power bottom, like, at least at a band of like this echelon,

I can't think of a cancellation that's been more cut and dry. You know, for one thing, the accusations were shocking. They're terrible. They were corroborated. Jesse, Lacey tried to make some sort of apology. And also, you place these accusations against their old records. And it's like, oh, I get it now. It's like, this is why he thinks he's an irredeemable piece of shit who's doomed to hell.

I thought he was just depressed. Turns out he's actual a piece of shit. And so, and then they just completely. I don't know, can't say so, but like, when people turn lyrics against a band like that, because I know that happened with Ryan Adams, too, people like dug into, like, his lyrics, and they're like, well, he was telling us that he was this person. Yeah. I'm a little skeptical of that just because I feel like on some level, you know,

Lacey wrote about that stuff, but was there also, like, an artistic distance from it, like, where, like, I wonder if he really felt culpable in a way that would be reflected? Because I do feel like the confessional nature of lyrics like that can be overstated. And that, because if you're someone who's like serially sort of pursuing women, young female fans, there has to be a level of self-delusion that allows you to do that, that wouldn't account for being writing these confessional lyrics. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I don't know. I don't mean to interrupt, but I just think there's a disconnect there. I don't think it's like as direct as people want to make it. No, but I think that this is what this guy mentions. Like, you know, you could listen to it, the devil and God or Daisy and still hear like something beyond like a literal interpretation of it. But when I think about like whether brand new can come back, I think about whether they should. Because when you went one of the things that like the same thing that made the cancellation of brand new like so cut and dry is the same. a similar thing to what made science fiction such a satisfying record

and that there was a real finality to it. Even before all this accusations took place, like science fiction was very clear cut the last brand new album. This also brand new went away. It's not like they were lingering like, you know, Pine Grove or Ryan Adams or Mark Kozalik. Like they were going to retire and then they just sped up the timeline. And when you think about just like how in the time,

between Daisy and science fiction, like how loathe brand new were to do anything, like do press, make music, touring. I mean, if you kept, I've seen transcendent brand new shows and I've seen just half ass it so badly on stage. When you think about like how difficult it is for them to make music in an environment where people really are dying to hear the next move, why would they subject themselves to doing something? It just seems unfathomal.

Although I have heard whispers that there's like maybe a picture of them hanging out together that's recent. Well, I could see a scenario where they just do a tour or they do a handful of shows to make some money. I can't. I mean, just going back to like the list, because you're making the case that it's not worth them to come back. I just can't see it in them. but the listener, he's asking, like, is it possible for them to come back? And I actually think it is. I really think that we've seen this, not just in music, but in other fields.

You know, Louis C.K. is doing shows now. You know, you've seen actors come back from scandal and seem to have some sort of career. I just think that, I mean, I don't know. Maybe you could answer this better than me. I guess I'm wondering to what degree, like, the core fan base cares about this or even knows about it. Yeah, I'd say it's not happening. Yeah, it's interesting. Because do you have, like, yeah, they have to, like, I mean, you could make the comparison of, like, Woody Allen continuing to make movies in Europe that are only released there.

But it's like, you have to consider, like, there have to be venues that have to book it. They have to be people work with them. I just don't see the infrastructure being set up to make this happen. And when you think about once again, how loathe brand new are to do anything associated with brand new, it just seems impossible to me. I mean, I guess the only reason I push back against that is that I assume that any band that's on hiatus for any reason,

always has the chance to come back because of the possibility of money being on the table. And I do feel like there will be a festival out there that will say, you know, we know that some people won't like this, but we feel that there's a lot of people that would want to see this band, and they'll take a run at them, and maybe they'll take the money. You know, I just feel that no breakup or hiatus, can stick, unless you're, like, so rich that the money doesn't even matter to you. And I don't know if brand new has that kind of cash in the coffers.

So I don't know. I'm not saying they should come back. That's another question entirely. But, like, is it possible? I think it is possible that a festival might just throw a bunch of money at them and say, we think the buzz is worth it. And we're willing to book you. I mean, it's the music industry.

This is not a moral industry. Yeah. You know, or at least the morality has an expiration date. And at some point, it seems like people forget about scandals, no matter how pernicious they might be. And they'll book people like that. So who knows? I hope it doesn't have. Maybe that's like my moral.

Like, I don't think it should. I hope it doesn't. But I will leave open the tiniest possibility that some. someone's going to be cynical enough to do it. Well, we'll see. We might return to this topic at some point. We'll see what happens.

Let's get to the meat of our episode. What are we talking about an album that I feel like doesn't get a lot of attention. And we like to promote under-promoted artists on this show. So we're about the underdog here. That's why we're going to talk about a little record called Nevermind.

by a band called Nirvana. It came out on September 24th, 1991, which is exactly one year from the date that this episode posts. So this is like maybe the most organized we've ever been. Yeah. In terms of recognizing an anniversary.

Look at us. So good for us. And, you know, it helps that we've had about 10,000 reminders this week that, never mind, is turning 30. But, you know, I wrote about Nirvana this week. I wrote a big piece about, it was about 5,500 words on like my 40 favorite Nirvana songs. And I wrote about this in the lead that the tough thing or, you know,

the trouble with writing about Nirvana at this point is that there really is nothing original to say about them. I mean, they are one of the most discussed and maybe even over-disscussed bands in rock history, even though they were only together for seven years. They put out three studio records, not a huge body of work, but there's multiple documentaries, books, box sets, you know, this is very well-trod ground. But I have to say that, like, you know, I have not listened to Nirvana a long time. I didn't listen to them before writing this piece for a very long time. And I think in my own mind, I really just tried to think of them as like a really great rock band, you know, and tried to sort of extricate them from the narrative that is hardened

around them. Because essentially now, everything about Nirvana is about sort of trying to explain why Kurt took his own life. Like, that is the dominant narrative. It's baked into everything that's talked about with them. I mean, Michael Azarad just wrote a piece for The New Yorker, very good piece about his relationship with Kurt Cobain and like the suicide just hung over that story. I mean, it was the through line in there. And it's the through line in a lot of pieces about them. And for myself, I think what I tried to do to make Nirvana feel fresh

is just to remember that they just wrote kick-ass songs that are a lot of fun to listen to. And if you could just appreciate them as rock music, in a way it kind of saves them. Because, I mean, Nirvana, obviously, you could never call them an underrated band. But there is something about them where the narrative is so sort of hardened around them that it stifles conversation about Nirvana. And it makes them, I think, less fun in a way.

And I know for critics, I think it's not interesting for critics to talk about Nirvana anymore. And in a way, I think that, again, they're not underrated, but I wonder to what degree, with a record like Nevermind, because there's nothing really new you can say about it, if it just, if people are just sort of like blazze about the record's great, it's like, yeah, it's great, fine, whatever, in the same way that we are about Sergeant Pepper or, you know, never mind the bullocks or, you know, any record that's just been discussed with, you know, with Nevermind specifically when we, if you think about it on the level of, say, you know, Sergeant Pepper's or like Dark Side of the Moon, I think those,

albums kind of redefined like what rock music was capable of doing in the studio whereas never mind um it is so familiar sounding even 30 years after the fact but like the large the biggest thing to talk about is its legacy is how and is how it completely changed the um atmosphere for rock music i mean you i i in a way i think it's like almost like sometimes i'm like still shocked at how much this changed things. Like, for example, like, you know, I'll listen to, like, helmet when I'm in the gym, and it's like, because of Nirvana and strictly because of Nirvana, a band like that was, like, the subject of a seven-figure bidding war in the 90s. Like, San Diego was the next Seattle because, like, because of bands, like, drive like Jayhu and three-mile pilot.

Or, like, the butthole surfers had, like, a radio hit, you know? Like, a band like that, or the meat puppets. Yeah. And they had a radio hit. And, yeah, that doesn't have. happen without Rivana. And so, as far as like is this, like, if we're talking about like, never mind the record, I do think it is fair to say that it, maybe not like underrated is the right word because like how could you possibly rate it higher? But I think in the in the indie cast, you know, universe discussion, I think it's been like somewhat below in utero or unplugged because in utero is like, if you're in

an indie leaning person. Like, that's the record, you know, because it's the one where they react against their fame and they're clearly not into it. And it's got that raw production. You know, even at the time, Kirk Cobain thought that, you never mind was a little bit too slick. It's the closest thing Nirvana did to sounding like the foo fighters. I mean, if you can warp the timeline like that. And also unplugged has that aura of mystique. You know, it's the last thing they've done. and it pointed to our future where maybe they're not making like rock music anymore. Maybe they're doing automatic for the people. And so, I mean, when was the last time you actually like sat and listened to Nevermind?

Well, just like the like last week because I wrote this piece. I mean, no, like I hadn't for a long time. And it is one of those records that especially if you were a teenager in the early 90s. It's a record you don't really need to play anymore because it's so embedded in the experience of just being young at that time. I mean, you know, I said this before, but I mean, revisiting, never mind, I was, it was fun because I hadn't heard it in a while. And again, I was just trying to kind of go back to the way I heard it when it first came out and not listening to it through the lens of everything we know about. what happened to Kirk Cobain after the fact. I mean, I remember when that record came out,

it was just like a really, like, fun, a reverent, you know, kick-ass record. And just thinking of it that way as just purely a collection of rock songs and stripping away all the narrative and all the pretension, I think that is really the key to appreciating that record

because, again, I think, certainly from a critical perspective, you know, critics like to seek out things that haven't been discussed, you know, things, or they like to bring things down that they feel like are, like, overrated or, or being over-celebrated. And, you know, nevermind just has not had that freshness in such a long time. You know, like to talk about a song like Smells Like Teen Spirit, like, I'm not there with Smells Like Teens.

Like, that was a song I skipped a lot when I was listed in Nevermind while researching this piece. I mean, that's a great song, but that song has so much baggage at this point that you can't really just appreciate it as a song. It's almost like a 90s history lesson or something, like when that song comes on. You know, for me, the key to never mind at this point are the deep cuts, if you can call them deep cuts, because it feels like every song on that album is pretty famous and beloved. I mean, it is practically. I don't know. Do you ever hear just like lounge act in the wild? I put lounge act in my top 10, because I love that song. Songs like Lounge Act on a plane. I mean, Drain You wasn't a single, but that almost doesn't seem like a deep cut. I mean, I feel like Nirvana fans especially, or, you know, something in the way.

Polly, yeah. Are those deep cuts? I mean, they are, because they're not as popular as in Bloom or come as you are, or weed or lithium. It's like Misty Mountain Hop or whatever, you know. It's like, that's not stairway to heaven or when the levee Blake. breaks, but. Yeah, it's still pretty popular. But yeah, I mean, there's like side two, I guess, of Nevermind to me is in a way the more, I guess, approachable side at this point just because

the first side, it's like all hits that you've heard a billion times. And they're all great. Like, come as you are, I think it's still a really great song. And breed, I think, is a great song. I mean, they're all great songs. Yeah. But, I mean, Nirvana, I think, even more than like a lot of other legacy bands have, it's really been a double-edged sword, the mythologizing that's happened with them, because it's obviously elevated them to a status that is, I think, higher than any other 90s rock band, probably. I mean, save, like, Radiohead, maybe. Nah, Nirvana is a bigger, like, I'd say Nirvana is a bigger deal.

And especially with younger generations. I mean, they're, like, the band that is, that's really translated. I mean, you know, one of the biggest events in the streaming world during the pandemic was, the post Malone. Nirvana covers said, did you ever watch that, by the way? You know, I've heard it was, I don't know if good is the right word.

I've heard it was like better than you expected. It was pretty charming. I mean, he's a pretty, like, disarming guy. He's, like, difficult to dislike if you're just listening to him talk. And he was performing those songs, I think, like, pretty well and certainly with a lot of sincerity and earnestness. He revealed that one of his favorite Nirvana songs is Stay Away, which is like, I guess, another deep cut on Nevermind.

And I guess he has a stayaway tattoo on his face. Oh. So that takes it to another level in terms of, like, you know, people that just wear the T-shirt and you're like, well, name three of their songs. If you get the face tattoo, well, he's already named one song, so you feel like he probably knows two other songs, at least, you know, if you stopped him on the street.

One thing that's interesting with this record, too, And we were talking about this, that, you know, obviously the Nevermind anniversary is a big deal. But a bunch of other iconic 90s rock albums came out around the same time in about a six-week span. Yeah. Because you had the Black album in early August. You had Pearl Jam 10 at the end of August. Blood Sugar Sex Magic came out also on September 24th. Wow.

What a day. What a day, man. and then Usure Illusion albums came out like a week before and Bad Motor Finger also came out around this time by Soundgarden. I have to say that at the time, just so we don't overstate the importance of Nirvana, that like probably my most anticipated, certainly like the album that I listened to the most in September of 1991

were the usual illusion albums. Oh, yeah. You know, and then obviously Nirvana took greater precedence after that. but because I know I mean you and I were talking about this before the show the narrative about them killing hair metal and like yeah everything was alt rock after they came along

it's not quite that clean no with 90s rock yeah and also like of course me at 11 years old is going to want to listen to use your illusion one and two because of I think the first R-rated movie I saw was Terminator 2 which had you could be mine which is like

like one of the most kickass songs imaginable like combined with the most kickass R-rated 11-year-old movie that you could imagine so it's like yeah this band's the shit yeah I was gonna say like I think that like the video for you could be mine yeah was like that might have been like the biggest cultural event of my lifetime up to that point because it was Terminator 2 it was teasing that and then it was also teasing the first two guns and roses albums in several years so it was like this conference influence of just, you know, dirt bad, like all the dirtbag kids out there were just, this was like the greatest moment of their lives.

And that was one of them. Yeah. And I had no capacity to understand subtext. Like I knew that like Nirvana was maybe like more subversive or weird. Then I guess like Pearl Jam 10, which by the way, like Pearl Jam was a much bigger band to me at that time. Like I always have wondered like if you were 16 and 19. or whatever, or, like,

what would it be, like, if, like, the Beatles or, like, Pink Floyd was, like, your sixth favorite band

at the time. Well, Pearl Jam, yeah, people forget that because Pearl Jam, even more than Nirvana, I think,

became their own genre, which really became, like, a self-defeating thing for Pearl Jam. Just in terms of bands imitating Pearl Jam, uh, it,

it really hurt them, like, by the end of the 90s. And, of course, Nirvana didn't really have to, weather that because they ended really before the backlash could really settle in with them. But yeah, that's another thing that's overlooked.

That like Pearl Jam, because in 92 you had, 10 was really blowing up. And then they also had Temple the Dog and they were big on the single soundtrack. And then they were also headliners at Lollapalooza. And meanwhile, Kirkobane was shooting heroin in an L.A. apartment with Courtney Love for the majority of 92. Yeah, I mean, you have to, you have to, you have to, consider that, like, yes, like the lower tier of hair metal bands disappeared. But I mean, nine, like once I finally got basic cable in my house, like 91 to 93, it was, you could see, you could see like Nirvana kind of changed things, but you would also still see a lot of

Aerosmith videos and Meatloaf and Eric Clapton unplugged. Um, when you take like a, uh, the zoom out view of things, yeah, like Nirvana may have like decimated the jazz. And of the world or the Great White or whatever, but, you know, there was still a time where they were just like a popular, maybe not even the most popular band of their ilk. And they were, you know, in utero kind of considered a commercial, not a flop, obviously, but, you know, I think Pearl Jam were bigger back then, right? Yeah. You'd be the expert on this one. Yeah, I would say so. I mean, I think the thing with Nirvana, you know, just to kind of go back to what you were saying about how, if you look at an album

like Dark Side of the Moon or Sergeant Pepper, like these classic rock war horses as being advances in studio technology or like what you could do on a record and how Nevermind isn't really innovative in that regard. I think the thing would never mind is that

it's almost like if it's not the last phenomenon it's like one of the last phenomena of like a pre-internet world where you had the old world media that controlled what the majority of people saw and heard. So if you lived in the middle of the country

and you get most of you music from MTV, because there's not a cool college radio station in your town and there's not a cool independent record store, that if things aren't on MTV, then they might as well not exist. So for a band like Nirvana to get on MTV, and then to also usher in all these other underground bands into MTV, that's a huge deal in a way

maybe is hard to comprehend now. Like if you haven't grown up in that sort of world, because, you know, it wasn't like Nirvana invented underground culture. There was already a thriving American indie rock scene going on in the 80s well before Nirvana existed. And if the internet existed in the 80s, you know, a lot more people would have known about the replacements. And, I mean, the replacements not even being an indie band by the end of the 80s.

But, you know, a band like the Meat Puppets or something might have been more well known if the internet existed then and then the impact of a band like Nirvana wouldn't have been as felt as strongly. I mean it was really a product of like an old media system that was about to be

taken apart. You know, so that's why I feel like you know, there's still I feel sometimes this conversation about well can this indie band rise up and take over the mainstream? And it's I feel like that's always

echoing the nirvana story. There's still people that are waiting for another nirvana, you know, like the upstart punk band that somehow goes on to sell 10 million records. And I just don't know if that's possible in the current media environment, just because the element of surprise can't be there in the same way.

Yeah, and also no one's going to sell 10 million records. Well, that too. or you know or or goes on to have like a billion streams or something whatever modern analogy you want to you want to use yeah yeah it's tough to say but i think that like one the one if we think of the reason that you know nirvana has transcended and still been an influence like i couldn't appreciate as a 13 year old kirk cobain like very obviously trying to put on bands like the raincoats and the vassalines and you know i read the incesticide um credits where he laid out his feminism and, you know, his other subversive ideas, like, very clearly. But like, I, like, it's like getting like a million dollars of foreign currency that you can't spend. Like, what the fuck did I know about that? And yet when you wear a Nirvana t-shirt now, you understand, like, it expresses alienation with popular culture that, like, you're a dark kid in ways that it was more difficult to understand when they were an active ban. Well, and that's what you can't do

With Radiohead, you can't do that. Like, there's no other 90s band that expresses that sort of teenage alienation as clearly as wearing a Nirvana shirt does now. Well, and also with Cobain, I mean, the ultimate irony of his career is that, you know, in the moment he was associated as being this critic of rock stardom, as a person who was a reluctant celebrity and didn't like the system. Although, again, I think even at the time, there was some. contradictory things going on there because I think he actually did want to be more famous than sometimes he led on in interviews. But, you know, that was his stance then. And now, I think, looking back, he really is regarded as like one of the great rock stars ever, you know. And, like, I remember Rob Zombie had this quote that bring Rob Zombie in. Yeah, great, man. I love it. But he had

this quote about how he felt that in the 90s that the grunge people um destroyed rock stardom because they they dressed like normal people and that they didn't act like the rock stars of the 70s but i mean look at kirk cobain like watch the unplug special just go on youtube and like look at him i mean is there i mean he he literally looks like a golden god in that episode he's this really good looking guy uh he is dressed in a way that he almost had like a uniform on stage in the way he like he again He didn't wear spandex and kiss makeup, but in his own way, he had a very theatrical way of presenting himself that I think, like, you think of him and you know what you picture the cardigan, you're picturing like the sneakers and the blue jeans, and it became its own kind of kiss costume for the early 90s. And I think that's the appeal for subsequent generations.

I mean, that he, in a way, has the same allure that, like, Jim Morrison has for people. You know, that he's... No, I agree. That's what I think. This good-looking rock star who died young. There's something romantic about that. And when you're a teenager, you tend to... You're more apt to romanticize a person like that, a tragic hero.

Yeah. What's a more teenage, like, impulse then, leave me alone, but also, like, love me and agilate me, you know? Right. Right. Exactly. So, I don't know. I would say that if you have never heard Nirvana, which I have a hard time believing, but like, give this scrappy little van a chance.

Tell them Indycast sent you. Well, you know, there might be a teenager out there who hasn't checked out Nirvana yet. I would definitely give it a spin. Maybe head toward the deep cuts, because I'm guessing if you haven't heard the album, you've at least heard smells like teen spirit and in bloom. But listen to Lounge Act, listen to Drain You, some of those lesser known songs that might be a way into the record. And for those of you who are sick of Nirvana, I got to say as someone who, again, you know,

I grew up with them, I hadn't listened to them for a long time, but I recently revisited them, and I really enjoyed it. I got to say, too, that the live at Reading live album from 92 is incredible. And that might be, if you're sick of Nirvana, that might be the album to go to, to refresh your palate a little bit. Because it really is like a great rock show. And it shows, again, like what they were capable of. of doing on stage when they had all their stuff together.

All right, we've now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, want you to go first? So, you know, right now we're in the golden age of turnstile. When I was at Pitchfork Fest, that was all anyone wanted to talk about with me. And, you know, I wondered that, like, whether the rising turnstile tide would lift other hardcore boats, you know, to have a convoluted metaphor. And the first one that I was curious about is a band called One Step Closer,

who is releasing their album today called This Place You Know. They were, they toured with Turnstile in Europe. They're out on run for cover records, which is, you know, a real stronghold of crossover, hardcore. And they're from Wilkes-Bara. They are a straight-edge hardcore band. So obviously the title fight comparisons have accompanied them since they got started.

And, you know, I do really wonder, you know, like this album would have been hyped anyway, just, you know, in any year where turnstile doesn't drop. But, like, is there going to be, like, more of an interest in bands like this one or knocked loose or, you know, C-E space cowboy? But this one gets a little bit, it's not anywhere near as, like, pop as glow-on, but it does have that sound of, like, title fight or Thursday. like when people talk about like emo core as in like you know the first wave of it where it still sounds like hardcore but it's obvious this person feels things a little more deeply they're thinking

of a band like one step closer and also you can make the easiest joke ever where you know with their debut album's like one step closer is about to break so um if you like run for cover if that if that record label means anything to you if you know if you love title fight but which they never went shoe gaze. This album, one step closer, this place you know, it kicks ass. So that's, I mean, that's, you know, the long and short of it.

But likewise, it'll be very interesting to see if people maintain their newfound interest in populist hardcore. Yeah, I mean, I think turnstile seems unique to me just because of their pop sense. And those songs are so approachable

even if you don't listen to that kind of music very often. And a lot of other bands you listed, I don't know if they have quite the songwriting chops that Turnstile does, but we'll see. Like I said, I welcome a wave of really great melodic hard rock bands, so I hope that turnstile, like Nirvana, open the door to many other worthy bands out there. I want to talk about a guy who put out an album today. His name's Andy Schoff.

He's a singer-songwriter from Canada. His new album is called Wilds. And if you know Andy Schafe, you may be familiar with his record that came out, I believe that was 2020, called The Neon Skyline. And the Neon Skyline, it was a second record. His first record is called The Party. And the Neon Skyline is a record really structured like a novel. It's like a collection of characters that gather at this bar called The Neon Skyline.

And you listen to the record, and it's very, immersive and you feel like you get to know everyone in the story. And Wilds in a way is a companion record to that. I interviewed Andy Schaft last year and he talked about how he wrote 50 songs for the Neon Skyline, which means that there's still a lot left in a vault somewhere. But he put out nine of those songs that were left over from the Neon Skyline on this record. And it's just another opportunity to spend more time with these, again, very richly created characters that he first introduced on the Neon Skyline. I think Andy is first and foremost known as a really good narrative songwriter,

but I feel like another great aspect of what he does is that he also plays every instrument on his records and he also produces his records. And one of the joys of his music for me is just the sounds that he's able to get. He gets great drum sounds and great guitar tones that I associate with really, classic 60s pop rock records as well as like 70s singer-songwriter albums. If you're a fan of that kind of music and you just love how those records are produced and like how live they feel and just how precise everything is captured, listening to his music is a real joy, both lyrically and musically.

And I think Wilde again shows that in terms of singer-songwriters and songwriters that tell stories, Adi Shoff belongs at or near the top of any list. So that record, again, it's called Wilds. It dropped today. Definitely go check that out. That was a quintessential Indie cast recommendation corner. Yes, it was. Thank you all for listening to this episode.

We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.