Indiecast - Let's Talk About Some Good New Music Documentaries And Some Bad New Music Festivals

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Steven and Ian kick off with a brief conversation about the recent SNL50 celebration (0:00) and whether Sportscast will ever transition to NBA regular season talk (7:13). Then they transition to an update on the Fantasy Albums Draft, including a new album from The Murder Capital (11:42). After that, they discuss recent festival announcements like Summer Of 99 And Beyond, which features a cavalcade of post-grunge bands (15:24). Then they transition to a talk about recent music documentaries about Sly Stone and Luther Vandross (36:36).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the new album from Anxious and Steven reps for the singer-songwriter Sam Moss (58:01).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 227 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On the show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about some recent music documentaries, as well as some recent terrible music festival announcements. Always an exciting thing for me personally. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He can't wait for the Indycast's 50 celebration in 45 years. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? So we're going to be like in our late 80s by that time. I imagine us having kind of a... I'll be in my 90s, my friend. I'll be 90. I'll be 92 in 45 years.

Yeah, I'll be on the verge of 90, but I imagine us having kind of like a Clint Eastwood, like late career Clint Eastwood, austere approach to our podcast. It's just going to be like no bullshit straight to the point. And it's going to be just as critically acclaimed. So I'll afford to. to that. I think we're going to age really, really well into this.

I think it'll be good. You know, we'll have the clip show where we visit old clips from the previous 50 years. We'll bring back treasured guest stars. We'll bring back St. Vincent. We'll wheel her out in a wheelchair. We'll bring out. Jimithy. I mean, we're definitely good. Exactly. Jimity will come back. I'm sure he'll look exactly as he does now. it'll be a good time. Did you watch the SNL 50 special? I'm not like an S&L truther. I just didn't have any interest in it.

Like if I did want to just revisit the glory days of SNL, I'll do what I always do, which is just look up the Schmitz gay and Cole and Blow commercials on YouTube. I don't really need to see like, you know, newer people rehashing that stuff. But I know that you're like way more, invested in it than I am just as like a cultural institution.

So I'm interested in what you think. Sort of. I mean, it's funny because I've been getting my kids into S&L lately. We have this ritual now every night where we watch S&L sketches on YouTube. And it's throughout the history. I mean, we don't go any deeper than late 80s, which is when I came into the show. But like my kids love Farley. and Sandler in particular.

Farley, it's so funny to me because when he was alive, he was always compared to John Belushi. People always said, well, he's like a lesser John Belushi. And here we are 30 years later. And I think there's no contest about who's funnier. Oh, no way. At this point, like, John Belushi, with all due respect, is not funny at all.

And I don't think he's even funny. I didn't really find them funny when I was a kid in learning about SNL. I never really got into him. I thought Dan Aykroyd could be funny. Obviously, I liked Bill Murray from that era, and then Eddie Murphy a little bit after that. But Farley, you watch his best sketches. They totally hold up. Like, my kids love Farley.

The physical comedy is just out of this world. Like, it's uncanny how good it is. And with John Belushi, I kind of, I was talking with somebody about, like, revisiting old comedy sketches, not sketches, but stand-up routines from, like, Lenny Bruce and, you know, Bill Hicks and like, oh, I'm like, no, man, this is like the real shit. I'm like, man, this is like not funny at all. So. And that's what's amazing about Farley, because that's 30 years old at this point.

And you would think, okay, it's going to age out. My kids won't find it funny because you're right. Comedy doesn't age very well, but his stuff is still, like, I still laugh at it. Like that sketch where it's the hidden camera and he has the decaf coffee instead of the regular coffee. and he just goes nuts. Have you seen that sketch? I don't think so, no.

It's a classic. That's hilarious. I mean, all of his great bits. I think the thing with Farley, in comparison to someone like Belushi, with Belushi, I think on SNL, he had this attitude that he was above TV. And I think he always felt like,

I'm a great actor. I'm meant to be on stage or on film. TV is beneath me. And I think that reads a little bit in his comedy on the show. It feels a little like, I think Belushi Singh was even more than being funny is that he was like this countercultural rebel type figure.

Whereas with Farley, it was never about him being cool. It was actually the opposite of that. He was this buffoonish guy that also just had a really great heart. And so you like Farley. And I think that just lends itself to comedy more than the cool guy who is like, I'm above it. Because coolness doesn't age very well. Whatever's cool in a particular era tends. not to be cool later on. It tends to read as a little cold or dated or whatever the case is.

But Farley, just being this kind of warm-hearted, I'm falling down, but also at the same time, I'm clumsy, but I'm also, like, incredibly graceful on stage. Like, that Chip-Ails? Yeah. Like, I know Bob Oldenkerk doesn't like that sketch because he thinks it's body-shaming Chris Farley. I don't agree with that take. I think what's funny about it is that Farley gets out there And he is like a really good dancer. Like he does the worm at one point.

Like it's amazing how well he moves on stage. And I think that's what's funny about it. Like the exuberance of it is what you laugh at, not his body. Yeah, I mean, trying to be cool and funny, though. That's definitely not going to age well. I think that's what kind of turns me off with like the SNL 50th and 40th. It's like it tries to try to play up the importance of it rather than like Is this shit funny or not?

You know what I'm saying? Well, the thing that's tough with my kids is that we, you know, they've only watched it via YouTube. So it's all the hits. We're just playing hits when after another. That SNL 50 was the first time they watched it live. And it was a tough watch. Oh, yeah. Like my son who like loves watching SNL every night, like he didn't laugh once.

And he just was like, this is really bad. And I'm like, yeah, like the live show. Yeah. It's different than watching it on YouTube. Like, YouTube really is the purest form of S&L. It's, like, kind of ironic that the format of the show is the antithesis of the internet, but, like, the internet ultimately might be the best way to experience S&L at this point. Yeah, that's true.

Like, it's sort of, like, with NBA highlights as well, where they'll talk about, and, you know, we're going to get right into this. But you'll see, like, Michael Jordan highlights or, but, like, forget how all the, like, 90% of the games were like, you know, the Bulls beat the Cavaliers, 82 to 73. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, are we going to talk about NBA now in sportscast? I mean, terrible discourse people are complaining about it feels very indie cast coded for

that reason. Well, the thing with the NBA is that I don't watch the regular season. I haven't watched the regular season in a long time. I'm not even really following NBA podcasts anymore because that used to be the way I would follow the league as I would just listen to podcasts. I haven't really been doing that this year either. But I'm reluctant to take shots at the NBA because I am sympathetic to fans of the league who feel like these people parachute in and they criticize how boring it is, but they don't really pay attention. So I don't want to be that guy, but I don't know.

Like the All-Star game, I have a friend who watched all that shit and he was texting about how amazing the slam dunk contest is. and I'm like, who is MacKulng? I had to look him up. Apparently, he's won the dunk contest three years in a row. And he's a G-League guy that has played, I think, five games in the NBA over maybe three or four years. And I don't know. Like, jumping over cars and stuff, that's just like Harlem Globetrotter stuff to me. I don't really find that compelling.

Yeah. Like, I don't get why that still exists as a thing. Like, who was entertained by Dunks in 2025? I guess there's people out there who like it, if that's your thing. God bless, but I don't know. I'm going to be the annoying guy and say it was different when it was like Michael Jordan than Dominique Wilkins in the 80s. We had two superstars going at it who you knew and were invested in versus like some

random guy who wins every year because none of the stars want to do it anymore. Yeah, and after McClunk won. you would see like John Morant and like Janus saying oh next year I'm going to do it and they're totally not because like why would you risk getting injured trying to win a dunk contest I love Mack McClung man like he I look first off like a white guy who played basketball at Memphis like got to love that we got like the DJ Qualls character from hustle and flow here um also yes he has played something like five games in the NBA and like in one of those games he scored like 12 points. So his like points per game average is like really distorted. And yeah, he's won

three years in a row. He's not even like on an NBA roster. I think he plays for like the G League team, like the Osceola magic. But like the dunks are awesome. Don't get me wrong. The dunks are incredible. But it's also like the greatest possible evidence that like the dunk contest is meaningless. And All-Star Weekend in and of itself. Like, I used to have so many great memories of watching the dunk contest on a Saturday night and transitioning into S&L. And now both of these just feel like it's not just me getting older.

These things are like objectively getting worse. And with all the, I mean, you know, I don't think there's as much like existential angst about the Pro Bowl or NHL All-Star Weekend. But like the NBA All-Star Weekend is so, so much like a part of the culture. particularly with like hip hop. It's like an event. It's a weekend. It's just something that people look forward to.

And yeah, like the skills competition, the dunk contest, the rising stars. The only path forward is a one-on-one tournament because nobody wants to be the guy who gets bounced in the first in the first round of that. Will anyone actually play in it? I doubt it. But like either that or like America versus like an international team. Like I think like the four nations. tournament and hockey.

You saw that. There were like three fights within the first nine seconds in the USA Canada game. Like just something that may inspire an actual fist fight is the only thing that can save the NBA weekend.

So Adam Silver, if you're listening, I imagine you are. That's the path forward for you, Bub. Yeah, I think more fist fights is generally a good prescription

for anything that... Shout to arch rivals. That was the best video game, man. Yeah, yeah. We need more fistfights than indie rock. I think that would liven things up a little bit. You know, let's have some, you know, we saw the Kendrick and Drake thing. We need some of that in indie rock, I think, this year.

We'll see what happens. Let's talk quickly about the fantasy draft. We're winding down here a little bit. Early. We still have another month in this quarter, but the last album on our draft board is out today. It's called Blindness. It's by the Murder Capital. This is your last album, Ian.

Yeah. I don't think it has a metacritic score yet. It doesn't. So, yeah. So we don't know. We're going to wait a week to see. It looks like I'm going to win. Yes.

But we'll find out how well. I mean, is there any path forward for you to win? Like if the murder capital does, you know, if it gets in the 90s, do you have a shot? Yeah. I mean, I pick this as kind of like a we have Fontaine's DC at home type pick, but it needs to do like actual Fontaine's DC. see numbers in order for me to win. Either that or we need to see a continued drop of horse girl. Some more reviews come in. A lot of volatility in that score. It was like at a 79, then like 86.

Now it's at 83. Also, maybe Bartiz is due for taking a hit. A few reviews of that, but it's holding it at 86. So I don't know. If like I get an 86 here and like Bartiz drops, then maybe we got a contest, but I'm not holding my breath. It looks like there's just a new reality where you are winning. And also, I'm just like kicking myself, not just for picking Ethel Cain, but missing out on artists like Richard Dawson, who always do well, and John Glacier. It's a British rapper on the young label, formerly Young Turks. She's got a 93.

Yeah, just my scouting team is just really letting me down of late. Yeah. that mind game I played with you regarding Ethel Kane. That was my best move, I think, in my own fantasy draft history. Barty Strange currently has an 86. I don't think Pitchfork has reviewed that album yet. It hasn't. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't.

Yeah, I mean, I wonder if I'm better off with them not reviewing it. I really don't want any more reviews of the Barty's Strange album, because 86, that's a really good score. Horse Girl, you said, was volatile, but it's an 83 right now. That's about as good as I could have hoped for, I think, for that record. So hopefully that holds. I just don't want my, I got to run out the clock. I don't want to, I'm not going to throw the ball anymore.

I'm just handing it off. I'm eating clock. I'm not going to risk any turnovers. You know, it's a, it's a ball control game for me at this point. So no more reviews. If you're out there and you have that Barty's strange assignment, Can you just like tell your editor it's going to be like a week or too late? Although I guess we do have to technically wait until the end of the quarter.

Yes, we do. So even if I'm ahead next week, we can't declare the winner, wouldn't that be something if I lost because of some late review? Well, that's all is what happened last time. That's all is what happened last time around. I might have to go race Suzuki mode and like, you know, do an alter ego 4.0 on Bartis. Oh, man. That'd be a Tim Doneghee situation here. There's no mafia connection, but there'd be some... Not that you know of.

Well, I guess, is the mob betting on the fantasy albums draft at this point? It'd be a... I would... If there's any mobsters listening, I will take a dive in the fantasy album's draft if you kick me a cut of your gambling winnings. I'm just going to declare that right now. All right, let's talk about terrible music festivals, Ian. This is like something we love to do on the show. Talk about music festivals, the good ones, the bad ones, the disasters, the quirky ones. I'm not going to say these festivals are terrible, actually. It's a good headline to say at the top of the episode.

I actually have some affection, at least for this first one that we're going to talk about. These two festivals were announced this week and they generated some conversation online. The first one is summer of 99 and Beyond Festival taking place at Alpine Valley Music Theater in East Troy, Wisconsin, a music venue close to my heart. And if you're a jam band fan, you also love Alpine Valley. Just a classic venue for the Grateful Dead. Fish has played there many times. I think the only band I've seen there is Fish, actually. I don't think I've seen anyone else other than Fish.

If I have, I'm blanking on it right now. But like Dave Matthews band plays there a lot. Jimmy Buffett plays there a lot. Or he did when he was alive no longer now that he's in the, you know, the Caribbean up in the sky. This festival is the, can we call it the comprehensive, the comprehensive post-grunge music festival? Maybe of all time. Yeah, you want to say it's comprehensive. But my first thought is like, how much does Stain hate each other to?

not be a part of this? Like, how do they not get them on the bill? Okay, well, let's talk about the bill. So this takes place in July, 18th and 19th, this summer. Two days. That part I could not believe. So the campground is going to be amazing. The campground scene, unbelievable. And I say that mostly serious, because I do think that this festival would be a lot of fun, especially if you're, you're drinking and doing drugs. I'm not currently drinking and doing drugs at the moment. I'm on the wagon. But if I were, this festival would be a blast.

So on July 18th, you have Nickelback is the headliner. Then you have live, some version of live. We don't know who's in that band at this point. I assume Ed Kowalczyk, but that band is crazy. Then you have dotry, tonic, Our Lady Peace, Ian Cohen favorite, right? Hell yeah. Yeah, Canadian. We got diversity on this.

Bill. The Canadians don't have far to go to get to Alpine Valley, Wisconsin, right there. And then you have lit as the last band on the 18th, presumably going on first. And then on the 19th, you of course have Creed as the headliner, three doors down, seven dust, mammoth, the Wolfgang Van Halen Band, the outlier here. Yeah. Because they're not 99. I guess they're the beyond part.

But they're not even post grunge by association of Wolfgang's dad. I mean, I feel like Van Halen is the antithesis of a lot of this music. But even the Gary Sharon years, that's the closest that they get to post grunge. Even then, they don't belong here. Hinder. Hell yeah. Or Hinder? Is it Hinder?

It's Hinder, right? I've never heard the word Hinder said before, but that would be really awesome if that's how you actually pronounced it. Lips of an Angel. Classic Walmart Core. You never heard Hinder as a kid as a euphemism for butt. That must be an East, that must be an East Troy thing. Yeah, Hinder, Hinder, vertical horizon and fuel. So like you said, the big missing band is stained here.

And then I'd say Days of the New, too. If you're going to have the comprehensive post-grunch festival, you need those two bands. But other than that. What about God smack? I mean Godsmack feels like you know and politically I mean they got like

Gotsmack is a Boston band with a guy named Sully as a lead singer like where's disturbed so but I do think that there's coherence because like disturbed and Godsmack are a little more metallic and I don't really agree with lit and vertical horizon those seem like

more alt-rocky but otherwise if we're talking like but they're late 90s the new butt rock like this This pretty much nails it, which is why I can't call it a terrible festival. It knows what it is. And seven dust, I would just say, too, is more probably like new metal, new metal than this. But, you know, it's the time period, though, is more or less correct.

And that's true, I think, for Vertical Horizon and Lit. You know, they were both, like, lit is such a, they're like American Pie Corps. Yes. to a T. So, like, if you were between the ages of 18 and 22 and 99, and now you're, you know, approaching 50, I mean, this would be amazing. And we're in that age range.

So, I mean, this is a festival. I feel like this is the best way to experience these bands. You know, like, I'm not going to queue up a nickelback record or a Creed record. But if I were at this festival, if I had, like, one of my bros, was like, one of my bros from high school was like, hey man, hey bra, let's go to Alpine. We'll camp out. We'll get a hotel room. And we're going to drink like, like, a hundred keystone lights in two days and just see these vans.

It would be a good time. It would be a good time for sure. Yeah, I don't know. Like, again, it's really hard not to. I'm just imagining, like, Politico or the New Republic doing like, you know, just like, on feet on the ground reporting about like how this like learning to draw this demographic is the path forward for like the Democratic Party because there is like an underlying political aspect of it in that it's like all dude bands like all kind of heartlandish sort of rock and

you know like even if like Creed is maybe not overtly Christian rock but they kind of are But yeah, I mean, I think that like this just reminds me of the, the great radio festivals that would happen in the late 90s. Like I remember I went to like, you know, WDRE Fest in like 1996, I think. And in the Camden waterfront, you saw like Godlives underwater and no doubt and Cracker. Yeah. One of the best days of my life to that point. But yeah, with this, first off, like human clay came out in the fall of 1999. Do not try to fool me on this summer of 99 shit

Well, maybe they're just doing my own prison songs They're gonna stay true to the concept and not do any music Because like Nickelback I think is more of a 2000s band Yeah, that's post 9-11 if I'm not mistaken They had the same the in that this is how you remind me video They got the same woman from the Lincoln Park video for crawling So don't try to fool me like yeah don't try to fool me that this is like 1990 stuff. But, you know, it's like a movie.

Yeah, it's like a mainstream blockbuster that is set in the 60s and they play a song from 1969 when the scene is set in 1965. Like you know, okay, if this were a Martin Scorsese movie, I would be pickier about this, but this is a broad kind of dumb movie. I'm not going to be as nitpicky in this context. I was just thinking about, when you were talking about the political aspect of this, would the election have changed if there was like a post-grunge bans for Kamala? Like Zoom call?

Like if we got Kroger and Stapp on a Zoom call to talk about Kamala, do you think the election would have been swayed? You know, would that have changed history? Probably not. I mean, probably not, but it couldn't have gone worse. So, I mean, like... Actually, Kroger can't vote.

I just, he's Canadian. He can't vote. Yeah, I guess. I think he's still in Canada. Perhaps. I mean, you saw the Nickelback documentary. So you would know better than I. But nonetheless, I mean, you know, look, maybe that is the direction.

Like, no more Beyonce. We're going full Crohn's core. Let's let let let let's this is the path for it. It is summer 99. I just imagine, I'm also just imagining like in the summer like with the, like with like people drinking raw. milk there's going to be like a maha contingent as well in the hot sun it's it's going to be awful but it's also going to be awesome like i i need to see boots on the ground reporting on this so if you're out there hell or hell if you want to send either of us out there live indicast from

summer of 99 and beyond well be careful what you wish for there you know we don't we don't it might be hard to back that up i'm going to london right after that so i probably can't go to the festival the the the rock festival at alpine sadly. But if you're there, and do like the real story, I really don't want to see the Atlantic writer who goes to this thing with the agenda of like, I'm going to talk to idiots in the parking lot and I'm going to, you know, finagle some bullshit thing piece about Trump's America and rock. I don't want to read that. Can we do? There's other things you can write about that thing that I think would be interesting, but regardless, we'll put that aside. I do want to talk about

the other festival that was passed around this week, the poster. This is something that is a little bit outside of our purview, maybe, in terms of America, because this is taking place in England. It's the Download Festival. It's like a long-running rock festival. I think it's like, this is like the 22nd year of the Download festival, hence the name Download. I mean, no one downloads music really anymore, unless you're, like me and you're grabbing bootlegs off of guitars 101. Any guitars 101 fans out there?

That's a deep cut for you, bootleg listeners. But this poster was being passed around and people were saying, oh, this is the worst lineup ever, which it's not the worst lineup ever. If you're into this kind of music, this might be the best lineup ever.

But it's definitely like the most, like, rock radio lineup that you'll probably ever see. So, like, the headliners are Green Day, sleep token. secretly a huge band At least if you're just an online person You don't listen to rock radio Like Sleep Token

They're like one of the bigger bands in America Or the world or whatever Do you know any Sleep Token songs? I do not like I don't know any Sleep Token songs I tried listening to them And they're like one of those bands Who is like that you would call them metal But they're like metal that sort of sounds like Imagine Dragons

If like Imagine Dragons were on the cover of Guitar World every five months. Yeah, exactly. That's a good way to put it. Then you have corn. So those are the three top-of-line headliners. Then you have Weezer, of course. They were available.

Shine down. San Diego Legends. San Diego Legends. Huge rock radio band of the last 20 years. Bullet for my Valentine. Jimmy Eat World for Ian Cohen. Hell yeah. This is Don Brocko.

Is that what it says? Yeah, they're this band. Like, I wouldn't ask you about them because I feel like they're, they're, they're either English or Australian and they're big and I have no idea what they sound. Like I get them confused. You remember that band Bronco with an H that was kind of around? Like, I always get them confused, but it's like, no, we need to get into some Dom Broco casting.

They're British. Okay. And they were formed in 2008. I've never heard of them. This is literally the first time I've ever heard the name Don Brocko. I only know of that band from looking at festival posters. I know Donnie Brasco, but I don't know Don Brocco. I don't know.

Maybe we'll have to do a Don Bracco cast at some point. Spirit Box, another band that could be made up. I've never heard of them. Now, okay, this next band is the band that jumped out at me on this poster. I want to talk to you about it. I don't know if you've heard of this, but, okay, so the same thing. sex pistols are touring right now, or at least they're doing festivals. But Johnny Rodden is not the singer anymore.

He's still alive. I guess he's still alive. He's alive in some senses. He's alive in the, he has a pulse sense. But Frank Carter is the lead singer of the sex pistols now, the folk punk singer. Okay. I think I got this wrong because I get this guy. confused with Frank Turner.

Oh, wait, wait, you're right. I've made this mistake so... I know, Frank Turner. Yeah. I've made so many tweets of like... I've made like so many almost tweets about like, oh my God, Frank Turner fronting the sex pistols, like a type of guy, their head's gunning's one. But no, it's Frank Carter, which is...

They're both British. They're both punk musicians. But Frank Carter is totally different. and he looks a little more like machine gun Kelly. Oh my God. I totally, this was like the Addison Ray, Kate McCray thing. I vested up too. So I'm not, I wasn't trying to like set you out for a floor.

No, no. Like, I totally was fooled by that. Because I was thinking Frank Turner, the folk punk singer. I was like, why is he in the sex? That seemed very weird. But there shouldn't be two guys named Frank. Yeah. And the punk world in Britain.

They got to get together and be like, okay, you're Francis now. And I'm Frank. There's not two Franks. And not two Franks with like generic sounding last names. You either got to change the first name or the second name. They're way too similar. I'm sorry. Just like Addison Ray and Tate McCray.

You got to get together. One of you gets the Ray. One of you gets custody of the Ray. Because for those of us who aren't. invested. It's way too hard to tell the difference. Yeah, by the way, Tate McCray, I got an email about her. She's playing like three nights at MSG. So, yeah, I kid you not. Yeah, like two nights and yeah, two nights in, I think the Kia Forum in L.A., so look at that. A couple of nights doing Rogers Arena in Vancouver. But how many people are showing up expecting Addison Ray?

And then they get Tate McCray. Look, I think there's going to be at least 10% of the people who are confused. Well, man, I had five minutes on Frank Turner fronting the sex pistols, and that's all out the window now. I got nothing on Frank Carter. Yeah, I got nothing on Frank Carter. Frank Turner is a guy who, due to the fact that when Counting Crows last came to San Diego, Frank Turner opened, that is how I remember. It's like, no, Frank Turner is the counting crows guy. I'm sure he would absolutely love to front the sex pistols

Because like Frank Turner, I don't know if you've heard his music But it's like the most extreme type of guy music Like you know the type of guy who like always like post stuff on Joe Strummer's birthday or whatever Like you know Yeah that's Frank Turner It's like I don't even know if he makes music as much as he exists as an avatar for a very specific type of guy Yeah I

I don't want to get too deep into his music. I actually saw him open for Jason Isbell many years ago. He seems like a nice guy. When I was doing my old podcast, Celebration Rock, I actually reached out to him about appearing in this series I was doing about Bruce Springsteen. I was doing a series on the 20th century Bruce Springsteen albums. And I was going to see if Frank Turner wanted to come on,

I reached out through his website. He was a very nice guy. And he was like, go through my manager, he'll set it up. his manager was a total dick. So I have a little bit of a bias against him because his manager was a dick to me when I was trying to book this interview. But like Frank Turner are very nice guy.

So I got no issues with him. His music, not for me, but his manager's definitely not for me. I don't know if he's still working with him, but he was a dick. Not a fan of that guy. Let's transition to our next topic.

Hopefully there are no Frank Turner, Frank Carter confusion. here with our movies. I think we've watched the right movies here. We're going to be talking about music documentaries. There's been a lot of music documentaries that have come out lately, and Ian and I want to talk about some of them. There's some movies that I've seen and some that you've seen that we won't go too deep into. I went to go see the becoming Led Zeppelin documentary that I think is still playing in theaters. I went to the initial run when it was an IMAX,

because I just wanted to hear that music in IMAX. Mac sound and it was pretty awesome. Documentary is pretty good. It's about the early years of Led Zepp one. So it's about them basically becoming this big band and then you don't hear about anything afterward. So all of the, all the problematic stuff is conveniently left off the table, which of course, you know, these are authorized documentaries. You're not going to get that. You know that going in. It's a limitation of the form. But for what it is, I thought was pretty entertaining. You saw the Diddy documentary that's on Max.

Is it just called Fall of Diddy? Yeah, it's called The Fall of Diddy. And I think there are other Diddy documentaries, which just, I think that's like an indicator of the quality of it. And that's also just about his rise to fame, right? There's nothing about the problematic stuff. Yeah, they don't even talk about like the basketball, the celebrity basketball game that happened.

Actually, that's like pretty much the, the gym. there's just like so much like terrible stuff that happens within like the first episode that you can't believe like like so much stuff that would end a person's career but um i do want to see something that i don't know i don't want to say respectfully but just something that is um a little more careful about presenting the story because the fall of did he just seems like it was thrown together pretty quickly like you can tell what a documentary is bringing to the table if like they give more than like 30 seconds of air time to guy who knew the guy when he was like eight years old like you see like his childhood friend you see like a random guy that like

did he chase down because he was wearing like a death row east t-shirt and a new york club um you know it's it's very very hard to endure and um also i'm just like kind of not as interested in it because you know we'll talk about like sly stone and like let zeppelin And these are like, you know, genius musicians who had like very, very dark sides. Whereas this felt more like watching a six or however many episode documentary about like Harvey Weinstein, you know, like someone who was like a visionary but not necessarily an artist. So it's a lot tougher to, you know, kind of not like condone, but just to be like, oh, this was, you know, I can understand, you know, the genius behind it. Like, Diddy was just, I mean, Diddy's like threatening the, like, giving death threats to the editor-in-chief of Vibe magazine

because he couldn't see his cover story in 1999. I mean, I don't know if that's ever happened to you and you've, like, reviewed like a Waves album or something like that. No, probably not. I don't remember that. Yeah, I mean, my thing with the Diddy Doc, like you said, it's a multi-part movie. I think there's six parts to it, something like that, five, six parts. And it's just hard to get excited. about watching a multi-part doc about Diddy's Crimes

at 9 o'clock after you put the kids to bed and you just want to wind down. It's just hard to be like, I'm going to watch this now. From how you're describing it, and I'm going to contradict myself here because I did one start a dock on Max, like a multi-part doc, on Jared Fogle,

the subway guy. Oh, yeah. I was like, this seems like an interesting story, but, you know, I quickly sussed out that it was how you're describing the Stiddy Doc, that it was like a Quicky Doc that just felt sleazy, but not in a particularly entertaining way. So I checked out pretty quick. Let's talk about the two movies that both of us saw that I think are worthy of discussion and worthy of checking out if you're into music documentaries. The first, as you alluded to, is Sly Lives, which is a movie directed by Questlove.

now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu, and it's about the life and career and downfall, and I guess sort of rehabilitation of Sly Stone, of Sly and the Family Stone. And I'll say at the top, I think it's a worthy movie. I really enjoyed it. It's interesting, though. It made me think about my own experience working on a documentary, you know, working on the Yacht Rock Dock that was on... and HBO that debuted last year.

And I remember when I was working on that movie, I was always the person pushing to make this movie longer. I was like, this should be at least two hours because we have all this great material. And if people are into it and it's a good movie, it doesn't matter how long it is. It won't feel like it's two hours.

And of course, it ended up getting edited down to 100 minutes, which is about how long this sly stone dock is. and it's how long most of these documentaries are. Like the sweet spot is somewhere between 100 and 110 minutes. And it's because you're trying to appeal to the casual viewer. And I actually think that that's the right strategy to take. Like the Yacht Rock documentary at 100 minutes or 105 minutes. Like it was a better movie.

But I was thinking about this watching the Sly Stone Dock because I am a Sly Stone fan. And my only complaint at the end of the movie was that I wish it was longer. I wish it actually went more in dead. And I feel like with the way technology is now, that there ought to be like an alternate cut of all these docks where if you're a true head, you can opt for the three-hour version and not the two-hour version that like the Normies will watch. Because Sly Stone, I think, is such an interesting guy. I mean, like you said, he's a genius musician, extremely influential. I mean, as the movie makes the case for, you don't really have like a lot of modern music looking and sounding the way it is. out Sly Stone. Like he's sort of like the original version of like what George Clinton became,

what even Stevie Wonder became in the 70s, certainly like Prince. I mean, there's so many obvious things that Prince took from Slystone. But then like his personal life is really interesting. I actually found myself being most interested in like the post-stardom stuff just because there was a lot of stuff I didn't know. Like I was aware of his peak. His peak was basically like 69, to 71. You know, that's when he started having hits in 69

and he was on Woodstock, and he was one of the breakout stars of that film and then 71 he puts out there's a riot going on, one of the great albums of that era.

And then that's when things start to go to shit after that in terms of his career. I was really surprised watching the movie, like how lucid Slystone was in a lot of the interview clips.

Like he's not interviewed for the film, but they show clips of him talking, it looks like it's probably in the 80s. Yeah. Like mid-80s or so.

And he's really articulate and engaging as an, I just assume that he would be drugged out because that's his reputation. I don't know if you remember this. He was on the Grammys 10 years ago, something like that. Like he made an appearance. There was, I feel like it was a tribute to him, and they were playing music on stage, and he showed up, and he kind of stood behind a keyboard for a little bit,

and then he walked off. It was like a very train wrecked. Did you see that? Do you remember that? You know, like, spoiler alert, if you haven't kept up with Sly Stone, at the end of the documentary, he is still alive. So you could have told me this Grammy tribute was like in memoriam of him. I was, I really felt like we did a whole like round of obituaries for Slystone, but he's still alive. I never did. I'm familiar with that Grammy's thing.

I do remember, though, he played Coachella in 2010. I say that lightly because he showed up late. If you Google it, like you'll see terms like disastrous Coachella comeback, Slystone at Coachella 2010, rambling. So, yeah, I haven't seen him in recent times. They give a picture of him at the end. And it's like, yeah, he's still doing it. He's still alive. I would have loved to have him, you know, do some interviews for this documentary.

But what they did is got what is possibly the. the collection of the coolest people alive. That was really what I appreciated in the Slicestone documentary. I think you could argue that Q-Tip was like maybe the fifth or six coolest person who was the talking head for this, you know? Yeah, they got DeAngelo, who I would say is the coolest guy. Yeah, so fucking cool. Like, he lights up a cigarette in his first interview clip and he's just smoking a

sig the whole time. And he's so cool. Yeah, like Andre 3000 in there. He's cool. Vernon Reed isn't as cool as those guys, but he's really, he's like maybe the most articulate guy in the movie or one of the most articulate. He actually names the movie at the end of it. Like, I don't know, Questlove, it feels like he took the title of the movie from something Vernon Reed says at the end. Yeah, there's so many cool people.

And again, like with Slice Stone, I actually like that he wasn't interviewed. It seems like he is the, he's the guy who like, like, should never be on stage again. He should never have pressure to record. It just seems like if he can just be him in his own little world, that he'll be happy. Like at the end of the movie, they say that he's queen and sober now. He likes to hang out and watch westerns, you know, like an old man. And I'm like, oh, that's great.

Good. Don't put him in the spotlight. It just seems like he is not wired for that. It's going to make him miserable. Just let him kind of watch Rio Bravo at his. house and chill. That being his fate just made me feel happy about Slice Stone. Yeah, I mean, I think that also, I mean, it was a happy ending.

But at the same time, I felt like, I don't know, kind of sad while watching it because similar to like the Dung Contest or SNL, like I, it's, I also had the same feeling watch the summer of soul, the previous Questlove documentary where can you objectively say that music was better back then than it is now because I'm trying to think of like a lot of the music that is given the same degree of cultural or political import

as a song like Stand or there's a riot going on and I'm like wondering I guess it's for the best that like Kendrick and Beyonce seem to be much much much better adjusted to fame than the lineage of black genius explored here but yeah I'm just like wondering

like when there are documentaries about like the big political music of like the 2020s, like what's going to be in that documentary, you know? Like is it going to be something that holds up as well as there's a riot going on? Or is it going to be people trying to, like to really, really reach talking about, say, lemonade, you know? I think the thing that's tough now is that, you know, we overuse the word iconic. You see the word iconic appear all the time online.

And they'll describe like an episode of Boy Meets World as iconic. Like, oh, it was iconic when Topanga, you know, did this to Ben Savage. And it's just been so devalued these moments that just get burned into the cultural memory that have significance. And just because of the way media is now, like it's hard to have something like the Woodstock movie, for instance, which just creates an impression not only on a generation, but like anyone that goes back and learns. about this stuff. Like, when I was a kid learning about music, like I became a Sly Stone fan because I just, I saw the Woodstock movie and I thought they were one of the best groups in that

movie. And I just loved the whole thing about how he was combining all these different genres into one. And he just seemed like, like the coolest rock star that you could imagine. Him and Jimmy Hendrix, like, Jimmy Hendrix isn't really talked about it. Like, one thing I thought was interesting about the Sly Stone Dock is that Jimmy Hendricks really doesn't come. up.

And I think it's something that is consciously done in the movie because they really want to uphold Sly Stone and make him like this defining figure of music in the late 60s and a black genius. But it's like, Jimmy Hendrix was kind of on a parallel track. And you could make the case that he was an even better example of like a lot of the things they talk about in the movie in terms of like someone who becomes famous very quickly and gets burned out by the industry and, you know, like a. black artist who's appealing to a predominantly white audience and how you navigate that.

Like, Jimmy went through that a little bit before Sly did. And he, I think, set the table for Sly, you know, because he comes out in 67. He's playing in an integrated band. He's doing a lot of the same things musically that Sly's doing. Sly, I think pretty clearly has Jimmy Hendricks influence in his music. But, you know, like when you make these movies, there's always things that you leave out because it undermines your case. It's kind of part of the movie, which I get.

But, you know, at the same time, it's like, well, that is kind of an important thing. You're not really acknowledging. But, you know, Jimmy died and Sly didn't. So that is a good part of that story. Well, I also think that, I also think with, like, Sly Stone, and they talk about this a lot in a way I find very interesting about, like, the political component that, you know, there was some of that in Jimmy Hendrix's music. but Sly Stone, when he makes like very overt anthems like stand, that it's supposed to be speaking for the entire Black experience and like how the Black Panthers are trying to extort him.

That was a really interesting side note that I wish they lean more into. Also, he goes from like everyday people, which is like this utopian anthem to like two years later, there's a riot going on, which, I mean, if you haven't heard that record, go to that record. That is like one of the bleakest, just darkest records that was in the mainstream. Just the sound of that record, it's so raw and gritty and druggie in a way that is ugly on purpose. Like it's not glamorizing that state of mind at all.

Yeah. And you could hear that with, like, I think that it's a archetype, a type of album that you could hear with like stanchonia or you know fear of a black planet or to pimp a butterfly it's basically like the darker drug year weirder dystopian follow-up to the beloved utopian album like you know right like your equimini or uh good kid mad city so um yeah it's just an incredible album it's just so bizarre to hear like a drum machine in 20 in 19th 1971. Right.

And all that leakage. It's, yeah, it really changed, like, it really changed the way I think about music and also, like, you know, music of that time. Yeah. It sounds very modern. Yes. And the thing with that record, too, is that it's, it is an inspiration for all those records you mentioned, but it's still more extreme than those albums.

Oh, yeah. You know, like, it's not the old album where you're like, oh, yeah, this is kind of old-timey and younger. artists took it to a different place. It's like, no, those younger artists, like, they didn't go as extreme as Sly does on that record. Like, it's still, like, it's the darkest example of that kind of album, I think, even now, which is why it endures as such a singular record. We should talk quick about the Luther documentary. And you saw this before I did, and you were encouraging me to see it. It's called Luther, Never Too Much. It's also on Max. And another movie, I

think really worth seeing. And it's about Luther Vandros, of course, the great R&B singer who passed away in, I think, O3. Yeah. He died. So 20 years ago, over 20 years ago. I think it was 2005, but, like, yeah, that era. He had a stroke, I think, in 03.

Yes. And then he died a few years later. And it's a movie I, overall, I really liked. I found it a little frustrating at times to watch it. This is actually a movie that I think could have been a little bit shorter. Yeah. than it was. There's a thing in the middle, like, where they're talking about, like, on-stage wardrobe.

I don't know if you remember that part? I was like, of course. That's the best part. I mean, the problem with the movie, and it's not the fault of the filmmakers. It's just what they had to deal with, but nobody in the movie wants to talk about or even really acknowledge what I think is the most interesting part of Luther Vandross's story, which is that he was this very successful. singer working in the mode of like lady killing R&B. You know, like just the quintessential guy who gets on stage.

And like Luther Vandros, it can't really be overstated like how perfect his voices. Like the thing, I just kept thinking that watching the movie. Like his voice is incredible. And it's funny like how he was this very successful commercial jingle singer. Yeah, I did not know that. Like he would sing in like, you know,

gum commercials. hamburger commercials, just because he has like one of those voices that it just seems like an AI created just the perfect. It's so clear and powerful and it just feels like he could sing anything. And he made his reputation with these very kind of beautiful ballads. The song I remember from that time is Here and Now. I don't know if you remember that song. Oh, yeah.

From late 80s, which I remember hearing all the time. And he sings it in the movie. They show him singing it. on the Oprah show, and, like, women are losing their minds while he sings this. So, anyway, he's living in this world, but he's a gay man. And I think he's, like, pretty clearly a gay man at the time. And it was something, he was deeply in the closet. And even now, it seems like he's in the closet.

Like, no one in the movie really wants to talk about it. And it comes up towards the end of the movie. Like, I thought it would be more of, like, a central thing of the movie. But it still feels like, I guess in his lifetime, he did want his mother to know that he was gay and there was tension there. They go much deeper into his body image issues, which I thought was really interesting because usually when people talk about that, it's in relation to female artists. You often don't hear it with male artists. But, you know, Luther Vandros, he would fluctuate in his weight. He would sometimes be heavier than other times.

and like they show like how often interviewers would bring this up to him and like pretty horrifying yeah it's it's so terrible yeah yeah and um so that's really interesting

um but yeah I don't know to me it was a great movie just because he was an artist I was aware of but I didn't know a lot about his story so that is always the sweet spot for a documentary like this where you know like there's another John and Yoko doc that's coming out, like, in a few months.

It's like, and I love John and Yoko, but like there have been a million documentaries about them. So to get a movie about someone who hasn't been covered in that way, I think that automatically makes the movie worthwhile. Yeah, and it's a real fine line this, this documentary walks because it's not like overstating the importance culturally of Luther Vandross. It's just like, yeah, this guy was super popular in R&B. It wasn't like indicative of like great.

cultural trends. And it also doesn't do the, like, what you see in like the Kenny G documentary where it's like kind of winking and self-aware. And yeah, there's just like a lot of tension within this film, you know, the sexuality being a major, major, major component of it. But yeah, I mean, just speaking from my day job, it's pretty clear like Luther Vandross had undiagnosed binge eating disorder for most of his life. And just how like gaunt he looks, like losing 120 pounds at a time and then gaining it back and like how you know in living color and Eddie Murphy and your Arsenio Hall show. But yeah, it's just like there was so much struggle going on in his life.

And no matter where his life took him, that voice was just so incredible. It's like, you can't believe a human can make that voice. Whether he's like singing about a fucking hamburger or like black uplift anthems on Sesame Street or being like hanging out with like David Bowie? The Bowie stuff I was aware of, although I didn't know how deep it went, because he's on the Young Americans album, which was Bowie's

Philly Soul record, you know, from 74. I wasn't aware of how much he was doing creatively on that record. I thought he was a backup singer, but he did a lot of the vocal arrangements on that record, including coming up with the hook, essentially, to young Americans,

like the Young Americans, like that part, Like Luther Vandros came up with that in the studio And that's the catchiest part of the song Yeah, he's like a producer, a songwriter He was not just like a voice He was like a musical genius And it's really interesting to see it Within the context of music that I recall

Mostly hearing in station wagons and like Dennis office Which I mean like that is the That's the place where it was Also forgot that like Clyde Davis Tried to do the Carlos Santana Supernatural thing with him in 2001 and he's like doing these like very very 2001 videos where he like you know he's watching like a woman walk by on the beach and it's just like so antithetical to like what was actually going on in his

life but it worked I forgot that like he won a Grammy in 2004 um yeah so it it's the perfect sweet spot in that it explores an artist that was like super popular but someone with against like whom I knew nothing about aside from like the Luther Burger. Well, and they touch on this a little bit about how like when hip hop became so dominant and pop music in the 90s that Luther Vandros was in a little bit of a bind because he is an old-fashioned artist in a lot of ways that he, you could imagine him being really successful in the 50s as like a Nat King Cole type singer. He could have been successful that.

I mean, I think he would have been successful in any era. You know, I think if you were alive now, he would probably be. doing like Michael Boo Blake type stuff. Or making Christmas albums that sell 10 million records. It's like the biggest record of the year. One thing for me, because I started digging into his music after watching this doc, and I was again aware of the songs you're talking about, the station wagon ballads that you would hear on the radio.

But his first record, never too much, comes out in 81. And that's like a cool album, because it is more. more, it's not so ballot heavy. And for lack of a better term, like it sounds like a yacht rock record. Like, it's more upbeat songs that have this sort of, like, jazzy R&B quality to them

with the amazing Luther Vandros vocals on top of it. He was also, like, in the movie talks about this a little bit, too. He was in a group called Change. That was, like, a band that he was in, like, right before he put out his solo record in 81.

And that again kind of is this jazzy R&B with like disco sounds in it as well. That's like a really cool record as well. I actually looked it up. That album is on the pitchfork list of like best albums of the 80s. It's top 200. It's like in the lower reaches of that list. But that's a cool record too. So I don't know.

Like if you know Luther Vandros but you're like, oh yeah, he does here and now like these, you know, know, sort of brilliantly sung, but maybe a little sleepy ballads, that early 80s stuff, I think, for me is the most exciting stuff to revisit. And I would encourage people to dig into that. That's good stuff. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first?

So I said that, you know, it's hard not to feel like music was better or just culture was better in the past, but so many things we've talked about this week. with S&L in the Dunk Contest. And I was feeling a little bit that way with, you know, big, really, really good albums coming out from Youth Lagoon and Baths, like it's 2013 again. Both those are great. Check them out.

I wish I had more time. But the album I want to focus on this week because I have a profile for them on Uprocks, which would be publishing today, is the record called Bambi from Anxious. It's the second album from them. They're a Connecticut-ish. They live in Philly, of course, now. band on Run for Cover. They were doing like a kind of next title fight thing on their last album, 22's Little Greenhouse, which is also great. This one pulls more from like Jimmy World Circa Futures

and Smashing Pumpkin's Circa Machina and maybe some third eye blind. I mean, they're not the only band doing this, but the difference is like these guys can actually write songs. And you can really tell when a band are songwriters working within a genre rather than people who can just nail the one of the songs sounds like Galapagos, but in the form of a futures B-side. And also, one of the co-vocalists played Freddie in the Broadway musical school of rock. So you know there's chops. There's like four singles from this album already out. They're all great.

It's probably the, you know, at least in my view, it's the best pop rock album that's come out in 2025. And it stands out even more so because there's so much 90s revivalism without the hooks going on. you're in good hands with this one. Yeah, I like that band. I like their last record. I haven't heard this new one yet. But yeah, if you're into that, like you said, Jimmy Eat World era of 90s rock,

I guess Turn of the Century Rock might be a more appropriate name for that. Late 90s, early 2000s, they definitely do it the right way. Yeah. You were talking about the second pains of being pure to heart album before we started recording. And I would say that this album actually, does have a lot of belong in its DNA. So that's an added bonus.

Yeah, I mean, I've been listening to the pains of being pure at heart these past few days. They recently played a reunion gig in New York. I don't know if they're going to do a tour or not, but yeah, those first couple records, so good. And they're a band that I feel like they came out at a time where what they were doing wasn't necessary. It was sort of the beginning of critics deciding that they weren't interested in indie rock anymore and they're going to grandstand and talk about how they're transitioning to like the pop-timism thing

and like Belong was one of those records that I think got dunked on in that regard. And it's a really good record. And I would encourage people to go back to that record, check it out. Or if you're a young person, listen to the self-title pains of being pure at heart, listen to Belong.

I feel like if that band came out today, they would be indie rock sensational. that people would be all over. And it can be again today, I guess. Just dig out those records. But that is not my official recommendation corner this week. I want to talk about a guy named Sam Moss. He's a veteran singer-songwriter from North Carolina.

And he has a new album out today called Swimming. Actually, I'm not really familiar with the records he put out before this. I was encouraged to check this record out from seeing social media posts from, I guess we'll say, the Aquarium Drunkard Corner. of social media, which I definitely follow and occasionally take up their music recommendations. And this is a record that I've been really enjoying. If I had to be a little bit reductive about it, I would say that this is a record definitely in the His Golden Messenger vein of North Carolina, foky, country tinge, slightly jammy, singer-songwriter records.

Lots of great musicians on this album. The songs are located. but really well written and the kind of songs that you want to listen to over and over again. And then on the 10th listen, you discover a line or a little like melodic motif that just knocks you out. Just really, really good songs. And an album that has jumped out to me, I guess, in early 2025 is one of my favorites, certainly a record that I like to throw on and listen to if I'm just looking for something to put on. And it's making me wistful, Ian, for the patio. It's cold as hell.

Spring training. Catchers and catchers are go out to a report. You know, where I live, it was literally like negative 15 degrees this week. Just horrible. Although next week it's supposed to be getting into the 30s and 40s. So getting a little bit closer to the patio. And once I'm there, I'm definitely going to throw on this record. It's made for that setting.

But it's also good here in February when I'm freezing my ass off. So good album, really good album. Swimming. Sam Moss. Go check it out. That about does it for this episode of IndyCats. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations,

sign up for the Indie Mix Tate newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.