Indiecast - Listener Questions & Guilty Pleasures

Episode Date: October 16, 2020

Last week, Steven tweeted a call for questions from listeners that would inform the podcast's new episode, the first entry in a new feature on the show. The curious responses to Hyden's call were wide-reaching, ranging from questions the relevance of Foo Fighters in today's musical landscape to the realistic influence of alternative streaming platforms like Bandcamp. Most interestingly, however, one listener requested for Hyden and co-host Ian Cohen to reveal their guilty pleasures, or "bands that you're embarrassed you like," while another was wondering about the pandemic's lasting impact on the music industry and whether we will ever see a live show again. These prompts lead to a discussion revolving around the current state of the music industry and what we can expect from the weeks and months to come. Of course, an episode of Indiecast wouldn't be complete without touching upon some of today's biggest indie stars like Phoebe Bridgers and Tame Impala. In this week's recommendation corner, Cohen is praising the mid-aughts post punk outfit The Stills and Hyden is praising Brian Eno and 'Cuttin' Grass,' the new album from Sturgill Simpson.Sign up for the Indie Mixtape newsletter at https://uproxx.com/indie/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we'll be talking to you, the Indycast listener, and answering your questions about a wide variety of topics. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

Okay, so I think, I think, I mentioned in, like, previous, podcast that I don't like drink or smoke or do drugs or any of that stuff anymore. But like I'm trying to figure out if there's like a better high for the music writer than like getting off like a viral tweet before like 5.30 in the morning. Like what people don't know about how I operate is that I wake up super early to get to this podcast. I go running, get the blood moving. And you know, you just five like 530 in the morning. Of course I'm checking Twitter. I say something stupid about arcade fire and people are into it.

And it's like, my day is all downhill from here. Like I've accomplished, you know, I thought there was nothing that could top getting a shout out in Anthony Fontano video. But, I mean, just the rush of like, you know, just the rush of getting off a good tweet, like before the sun's up. Nothing tops it. But actually, you know, I bring this all up because, I mean, I, I. If you listen to this podcast, if you follow me on Twitter, you know my vibe.

Foxing's Near My God is like probably my favorite song in the past couple of years because of its subject matter, which is that if you're dedicating yourself to a craft where the rewards aren't immediate, you have this deep, deep need for validation. Like, does anybody care about the fact that I spend so much of my life writing about like emo bands with like a thousand monthly followers on Spotify. And it even goes into my real life job as well. But this weekend, if you want to talk about things that you wake up to on Twitter and you feel like, wow, like people really do care. So I wake up on Saturday and I see in my mentions that there's quite a few people bringing up the fact that Steve had promised

on his previous episode, we made a bet that whoever gets the Lincoln Park score right when pitchfork reviews hybrid theory. There were like a lot of people, and I mentioned saying like, dude, man, Steve, you got to make them listen to a dead bootleg. You got to make them listen to a dead bootleg. And I mean, this was a part of the show, like really deep into it. This was not the intro. So, I mean, shout out to our listeners, man.

Like, they are paying attention. Also, I did not listen to the. bootleg, so sorry. Well, I got to say, like, you know, I'm glad you brought this up because it was the most important thing to come out of our previous episode. Yes. I predicted that Pitchfork would give the Lincoln Park hybrid theory reissue a 7.6, which is hitting the half-court shot at the buzzer, nailed it, didn't even bank it in, nothing but net.

And I believe what I said was, is that I was going to make you listen to the six-hour Big Cypress show by Fish. the New Year's Eve of the end of the Millennium show. So we'll see. I mean, I feel, I don't really feel good making that a punishment because I feel like that is a privilege. That is a great show. I'm like doing you a favor.

Yeah. You listen to it. But yeah, we'll think of something. I don't know. But I think that we were reminded that we have a good audience out there that they seem to be engaged. And it seems like we should be getting them more involved. So we had the idea that we're going to do our episode.

episode today, all reader questions, not reader questions, listener questions, soliciting, we went on Twitter earlier this week and we solicited some questions that we could talk about on the show today. And we got a lot of good responses to the point where I think we're going to start doing a regular mailbag segment on the show. I think that would be a good idea. Yeah. My girlfriend asked me this morning, it's like, were any of the reader questions are like mean

to you? and I'm like, indie cast, like straight up good vibes, man. Oh, yeah. I appreciate that. We love y'all out there. It's a love fest. We love our listeners. They tolerate us, I think.

They're humoring us by listening to us talks. But yeah, you know, we asked for questions, and our listeners responded with some great, I think, conversation starters on this show. So why don't we get started? Our first question, actually, our first couple questions. have to deal with COVID. We got a lot of COVID-related questions. Of course, that's not a surprise. COVID is on all of our minds,

and there is a lot of speculation. If you're a music fan about how is the industry going to come back from this? What is live music going to sound like? What are bands going to do in the meantime to survive, you know, this work stoppage, essentially, that's been going on and is going to be going on for quite a long time? So our first question comes from,

Twitter, it's from STL traffic laws out there. And that might be a member of Foxing for all I know. It's from St. Louis. It could be a member of Foxing in disguise. They're all trying to leave St. Louis, I think.

The question is, how many bands that were on the cusp of success will we lose due to the end of touring during COVID? Which we don't know that, obviously. We're just speculating here. But yeah, seems like there may be some attrition there in terms of, you know, can bands hold on through this, again, this work stoppage that is indefinite, it seems like, at this point. Yeah, I mean,

I don't know if there's been any examples of bands, like, straight up saying, hey, we're breaking up because, like, we just cannot make a living off this because of COVID. But I think from our perspective, you know, not as fans, but also as, like, writers, as much, you as I bemoan the kind of horse race like sports aspect of music writing where we have to like check the stats and you know see who are the winners and who are the losers and frame things like a horse race it's the like it's taken away the component I mean when we when we praise bands we write about bands like we want to see them succeed for the most part we want to be able to like kind of see how their fan base is grown or you know whether they're touring

in bigger places or whether they're like inching up the festival uh poster to a bigger font or whether they're playing the festivals to begin with or whether they're doing late night shows and it's almost impossible to tell like which bands are sustaining uh any sort of career growth off the buzz we after the buzz that they've gotten in the year because i mean yeah new bands have released records um there have been albums that have been celebrated from both you know legacy bands and new bands like. But what I think about is bands that were on the like in any regular year that were like right on the cusp of possibly blowing up and then COVID happened. So I think, I mean, I can't believe we haven't talked about dog leg in this podcast yet. But if you if you want to talk about a band that's like,

I think really got screwed over by COVID and they've actually like said like, hey, we've lost X amount of dollars from not being on South by Southwest. and having our tours cancel. And oh, by the way, we lost our jobs because, you know, we have regular jobs that and so many of them and lost to COVID. But what, melee came out, like I remember this exactly on March 13th, which I was in New Orleans at the time on like it was my birthday.

We were on vacation. And it was, and I got back to work on Monday and then everything shut down. And I think that record, as much of the. we compare like dogleg to like kind of the 2012 bands like japan droids and cloud nothings and waves or what have you like the difference is like dog leg is like a really really good live band already like some of those bands i'd mention a little erratic and i think if they were able to do the

south by southwest thing and maybe like hit some festivals or whatever they would i mean we'd be talking about melee in a much different way also like porridge radio they were another band that released an album on March 13th that has that very mid-sized venue. I don't want to say like arena readiness, but also being a British band, I think coming to America and being able to like, you know, kind of let that album breathe. That would have made a major difference as well. And also when those albums dropped, it was, you know, like people kind of didn't care about new music.

Like this is when everything about COVID was abnormal. And so I think those albums and also pretty much any hardcore band, any plan that plays heavy music when you're talking about like Gulch or Nouvelle Ascura or Infant Island, it's so odd to have 2020 be such a great year for heavy music and yet you don't get to see any of it live. So I'm really curious about like how that's going to affect the release of like hardcore or metal albums going forward because most of these were placed before COVID. Yeah, you know, I think if there's a

silver lining to this, because I agree with everything you said. Now, I would say that like any emerging band, whether, you know, we've talked about Bartis Strange on this show. Oh, God, yeah. He's come out this year. You would think that he would probably be on tons of festival bills and really killing it. You know, there's a band

from Chicago called Rat Boys who put out like this really great record in, I think it was in February. Yeah, that It might have been January. That was like a record that kind of felt like, oh, they're about to go to the next level. They kind of seemed like they had toured with Pupp right before that. It seemed like they were.

They toured with everybody, man. Like, I've seen them open for like every band. I think the silver lining here possibly is that I think fans have been reminded of how important it is to have a one-to-one relationship with the artists that they love. And we've seen this that, you know, Bandcamp has been having these Band Camp Fridays where essentially if you buy a record on that day, they give all the money to the artists. And it seems like there's just maybe a little bit more awareness out there that, you know, if you aren't buying records or you're not buying downloads, then the artists really are not getting any money at all right now because they can't tour. Or, you know, this, buying records on band camp might be the only way that you can support the artist that you love. So hopefully that's something that people can take to heart and just try to be a little bit more

sensitive about that. If you're just streaming music all the time, you're not really helping the artist that you love in any way financially. So I think that will hopefully be a mitigating factor here. But obviously, it's devastating that these bands can't tour. One thing that I'm curious about, and this is like a slight pivot away from the question, because I don't think any of these artists are in danger of having their careers ending or anything. But I do wonder about like the legacy artists that were poised to make a different kind of leap this year who are kind of like in this weird limbo where it just makes me think of like Michael Jordan retiring in the middle of the 90s.

And like how he was in his prime, but he was taken out of commission for a few years. And of course he was able to come back and have tremendous success. But there is something about, like, say, a band like Tame and Paula, we've talked about that record quite a bit on this show in relation to COVID, how it felt like they put up the slow rush in February. It felt like, you know, Tame and Pala in a normal year would have been set to be playing arenas and headlining festivals. And they're already a big band, but this definitely takes the wind out of their sales at this point in their career. I think they're even bigger. Like, I heard that song like Lawson yesterday on the radio a lot. It's true, but just not being able to monetize that.

Oh, of course. Well, monetize, yeah. But, I mean, could they have been bigger, though? Like, I think they're already as, I couldn't imagine them, like, being more popular or, like, having a next level after currents that this album reaches. That's possible. I mean, I guess I think about, and again, these two, these artists are also big two, but like, you know, the 1975, they were doing an arena tour with Phoebe Bridgers opening.

And I'm just, that's a tour I think about like, oh, that would have been pretty interesting, the alternate timeline if that tour would have happened. Yeah. Obviously, Phoebe Bridgers has had a really big year. But if she would have been on an arena tour with the 1975, what would, like, where would that have put her, you know, in relation to where she is now? That's something I think about, I mean, I think, you know, one thing that, like, I guess they do this with fish where there's like different phases of fish's career that fans talk about. Like there's

1.0 era fish, which is like basically their career up until the early aughts when they went on a hiatus. And then there was a brief period where they came back in the early odds and that's 2.0. And then like the current era is 3.0. And I love that classification for like legacy artists and talking about different phases of their career. I kind of want to bring that into talking about other kinds of bands. Like, I wonder, because of COVID, how many artists are going to be entering their 2.0 era? Because they've been sort of involuntarily put on hiatus. And, you know, because you're right, like, Tim and Paul was still a tremendously popular band.

And, you know, 1975 is still a tremendously popular band. But it's hard for me to believe that, like, this break won't have some sort of impact on their career trajectory. I don't know what it is. Again, it might be a Michael Jordan thing where you take a break and then you just keep on being great. Or is there some kind of weird thing like where because eventually there's a generation that sort of tracks with certain acts and then those people get older and then like other people kind of come along and that a new generation embraces? And I just wonder if that break occurs during this COVID hiatus that we're in. I don't know. I don't know.

You mentioned, like, Phoebe Bridgers in 1975 and Tame and Pala. Like, by the end of it, like, I think Phoebe Bridgers is maybe the only artist that's, like, come out of this whole thing, like, bigger than before. Because 1975, Tame and Pallet, like, not good at, well, I mean, Maddie Healy was good at Twitter before he got off Twitter. Tame and Pala is not like a band that does that one-on-one interaction. But, I mean, Phoebe Bridgers is, like, just kind of masterfully handled this whole deal. Well, her music is better suited for this, too. Like, I think with Tame Impala and 1975, you know, there's a certain spectacle to them, seeing them live that I think adds something to the music. Like Tama Pala, for instance, I think they have this, you know, the tractors, I think look at them as being sort of anodyne and, you know, kind of flat.

And actually, live, it is a pretty, like, dynamic show. Not that Kevin Parker's dynamic, but they have an amazing light show. That goes well with the music. So I don't know. These are all kind of interesting things to contemplate, you know, as we look ahead to the future. Yeah, I just wonder, but I just wonder, though, like, which bands, like, are going to, like, end up breaking up because of that, like, where they just decide, like, yeah, we can't do this anymore. Maybe, I think we'll maybe see that more in 2021 as, like, the reality of this, like, because I think a lot of people are like, oh, maybe we'll come back in 2021 to start touring. but yeah, I think next year we're going to like really see like the hangover effect bands in the way this reader mentions.

Yeah, and you know, and there will be, I'm sure, acts that won't even get started, you know, because of this. You know, there's a lot of things that we're going to miss, you know, because of, yeah, this work stoppage has just been devastating. So this details into our next COVID question, our second COVID question. And it's from Chris in Chicago. This was an email. He says, right now I view what is happening with live music like a garden hose. We have officially pinched one part of it. Yes, I don't consider the drive-in shows actual concerts just yet, although I applaud the effort.

Once the vaccine is found and restrictions are lifted, I believe concerts and festivals are going to come back in a major way, similar to letting go of the pinch of the hose. Yes, we get the garden hose analogy. Very good. So tell me about what you think the concert lands. will look like when the time comes. And he says, please be 20, 21. Although, I mean, honestly, even if it's 2021, it will be late 2021, I'd imagine.

2022 might be like the first kind of full-fledged year. But this person seems to be saying that, you know, there's going to be so many bands that are going to be out there. And there's also going to be, I guess, presumably people that are going to want to go see these shows. You know, one thing I'm curious about, I mean, we've talked about the band side already of this. I wonder what the psychological effect is going to be on the audience, even when there is a vaccine, presumably. You know, because I know, like, before all this happened, you know, I went to festivals.

I went to arenas. I was in packed music clubs. I never thought about germs, really. I never thought about could I get sick here. And I have gotten sick, I think, from being in a... an arena environment, especially again when you go to jam band shows and you're going like the three in a row. They call it the wookie flu. Definitely got in the wookie flu before. But I just wonder like if people are going to be slow to return to these events because they're going to be

thinking about COVID or thinking about some other illness or if there's almost going to be like, you know, because like right now we're, you know, we've seen sports come back and sports pretty much across the board are down ratings-wise, and the assumption was that people were so desperate for entertainment that they were going to be rushing to sports, and that hasn't necessarily happened. I just wonder

to what degree people being out of the habit of seeing live music is going to affect their behavior going forward. Because I know for me, like, I'm excited to see live music. You know, I really miss it, but I'm also used to not going to concerts now. And it's, and I just want,

And I'm more into live music, I think, than the average person. I just wonder, like, for the average person, if you're used to not going to shows at some point, is it something you just are fine missing now when it comes back? That's something I wonder about. Yeah, I mean, I think with, like, just even pre-COVID, you think about, I just think about my real-life friends who were super into shows in their 20s and, you know, late 20s,

and they start going to shows a little bit less and less because, you know, jobs, kids, other obligations, and then they reach 40 years old. And they're like, hey, Ian, I want to go to this show with you. And they'll tell me that's like, hey, man, this is like the one show I've seen this year. And so that happens naturally. But, I mean, I think this supernatural destruction of the concert industry will, I mean, I don't think people are going to be ready to come back yet. I think Elton John announced recently that his tour will resume in 2022. So I think people are mentally preparing for 2021 to be a wash as well.

Because I think when you compare it to sports, like people showing up to sports, I do think there is a different audience. I think like college football, for example, like the players, they express their concerns about fans showing up or them being. exposed, but it's a little bit more tamped down because, you know, you root for the University of Florida. You don't root for like, you know, the individual players as much. And, you know, what we saw is the LSU Florida game, which is like the equivalent of like several fish shows as far as like audience and tailgating. Like that got canceled because of a COVID spike. So I think bands aren't going to be particularly thrilled to come back just because of when you look at like who who's being careful in COVID and who wants to wear masks and who isn't like you're not going to take our freedoms away.

Like bands aren't going to, I'm really interested in what bands are going to be like the ones who dip their toes into the water first with live performances. Because you do that, particularly when there's still some uncertainty. Like, they can subject themselves to a lot of criticism. And so as far as like 2021 goes, I think they might get a little bit more creative. like the flaming lips did the bubble. Like I think they want their fans to be in a bubble as well. And I think one another thing that people have to be mindful of,

I think Chris was mentioning that it's like a garden hose that once live, if there's a vaccine or what have you, there's just going to be this explosion of live music and you're going to be able to see bands everywhere. And I mean, a lot of venues have shut down. A lot of bigger bands are the ones who are going to take the hold. So it's not an. unlimited supply.

There might be a lot of demand, but these smaller bands might get elbowed out of playing these venues, which may not exist anymore. Yeah, that's another thing. Yeah, festivals, like, I don't see those coming back until 2022 at the earliest. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I think that, you know, the garden hose aspect of this, you know, I remember thinking even before COVID that there were, that, that, that, there were like a lot of bands on the road. You know, like, in my town, it's like, you know,

there's like multiple, like notable shows every night to the point where it's just, even if you like a certain act, like you can't go see everything. I mean, sometimes it's because there might be, you know, two bands you like playing the same night or it's like, you just don't want to go to clubs like every night of the week necessarily. So, you know, that was before COVID and now looking ahead to what the invite. It's going to be like after that and just, you know, the urgency that so many people are going to feel to go out on the road, even if they can get into a venue, it's just going to be super competitive, I would imagine. You said before, like, and you're right that like there's going to be so much competition to get into certain venues, the ones that are still around.

You know, that's going to be a challenge. And then, yeah, just competing with the other shows that actually do get booked is going to be hard. So, yeah, I don't know. it's interesting because we have seen bands play during this uh during this lockdown i mean like smash mouth played at sturgis we're talking about like smash mouth and like um or like christian like like rockers i mean yeah and then you get into the kind of politics of it all right i feel like shows right now are they have the element of like sticking it to people that are you know like supposedly in you know impugning on your freedoms by making you wear a mask so i'm going to go

see smash mouth at Sturgis, like just stick it to the lips. Or great white, you know. So, again, like, these are all things that we can only speculate on this point, because, I mean, who knows what live music is going to look like. I mean, we're all sort of living through this for the first time. There's no precedence for this at all, but I feel like we're being kind of pessimistic here. I hope that, I hope it's not as great. grim, I guess, is how we're saying it.

I mean, I think... But, like, what, what thing in 2020 has ended up, like, better than we expected? I think it's hard to... It's hard to be... I think it's hard to be anything but pessimistic, particularly with live music, you know? Right. So let's move on to the next question. Let's get off of COVID.

Maybe try to talk about something more uplifting. This question comes from the fabulous yawn from Twitter. Thank you, Fabulous Jan. Yes. Do you guys have any bands that you're embarrassed you like or that a lot of people don't really like? Kind of guilty pleasures, even though I hate that term. Ian, won't you go first? I am so happy that we got to answer this question because guilty pleasure has taken on so many.

There's like a taxonomy of guilty pleasures that I think doesn't really get dealt into. because what I think this guy or fabulous John, this person, I don't know the agenda of the person. But when they're talking about guilty pleasures, I think what they mean is the more antiquated term of like things that you're not, quote, supposed to like things that are seen as like beneath a more refined music listener. And the funny thing about that is it refers to, you know, teen pop or new metal or, okay, like first off, we did a new metal episode. previously. And teen pop, I mean, like, if you like teen pop, you're probably going to get like a book deal

or write for the New York Times. I mean, like, that is stuff that like, over the past 20 years, certain trends in music writing have led to, if you can find thing that may have once been seen as a guilty pleasure, like, that's your inn. Like, that's going to be your niche

and you're going to be probably in very prestigious publications explaining to your average reader. like, you know, why this supposed guilty pleasure is resonating with the kids. So that's like the first guilty pleasure that I think people come to mind. Well, and I want to say, too, that like, I feel like, and this is probably true of most music critics, but I feel like you and I have both made a point in our writing careers to talk about acts that are maligned or considered uncool and defending them.

So I don't know if those would be called guilty pleasures necessarily. That's like the bread and butter of like what we do. If you can find a guilty pleasure, like that is like hitting oil. Well, it is more interesting as a music critic to talk about something. You either want to be the first person to praise something or the first person to say something sucks. Like you want to be first in the door either way. And I think generally in music criticism, I think one of the big trends is this, I guess criminalization. if you will, of the term guilty pleasure.

This idea that, like, there are no guilty pleasures, and you can always find someone who can speak intelligently about any act. Although, again, I do think that there are certain things that are considered verboten and music criticism. And I think we've talked about this before. I mean, but I think, like, mainstream rock is still, like, the genre that, you know, to talk about, like, really popular rock bands. and to just dismiss them out of hand

without really thinking about them. That's kind of like the one form of pop music where it's okay to just take a shot at it without really thinking about it. There is nothing more embarrassing to a grown music writer than a teenage version of themselves who liked mainstream rock music. And when we talk about guilty pleasures

is like actual things I kind of feel guilty about listening to now. These are like the things that you kind of have to enjoy in private. Like for example, you know, if I'm feeling nostalgic for my last year of college, like, and I'm like, maybe it would be nice time to throw on Ryan Adam's gold, like, or like a sun kill moon, like stuff like that where it's like or like music that can still like have like an inspire emotional reaction with me. Have you thrown on any Ryan Adams during the cancellation era? Do I really want to like, admit to any of this?

But like, yeah, that's what you put like, we have conversations on Twitter about like the Spotify private mode classics. Oh yeah. For some people, that's like the Smith. Some people like will say like, yeah, I'll admit I still listen like I still listen to brand new, but like I'm definitely going to put it on private mode. Those are like the guilty pleasures like where I'm like, should I be listening to this? See, I have other streaming platforms on my phone.

Like I also have Apple music because then I can listen to like music from my own collection. But that's all that's also where I go for like the things I don't want people to see me listening to. And it's usually just because I don't want people to see that I'm listening to, you know, Steely Dan's dirty work for like the 10th time in a day. You know, I don't need that out there. So, yeah, it's like, I've got, like, the separate streaming platform for that. But, yeah, I like the idea of having the Spotify private classics as well. Yeah, it's, it's, it's so bizarre that, like, I have, like, that I feel like I'm being watched by people when I'm like. Oh, yeah.

I don't like that. When I just want to remember what it was like to be, like, 21 and have, like, my brain encased in a steel reserve amber. We'll get into that when we talk about another question later on. But, and even more, it's like when I, there's like the guilty pleasure stuff that I kind of feel guilty about because it contradicts with things I say on Twitter or just like this quote brand I carry where like I make fun of Ice Age. I make fun of LCD sound system. But like there are some songs. It's like, yeah, like yeah, I kind of listen to some of those. So you're worried about that.

You're worried about going against the Twitter brand then. You're like, oh, I actually love Whitney. I'm listening to Whitney nonstop on Spotify, even though I'm taking shots on Twitter. I'm listening to The Idol's record. I'm feeling it. I know. Like what, like, yeah, I mean, like, there have been a lot of bands I've, like, changed course on over the years. But still, it's like, oh, God, I'm going to have to explain things if, like, the next Whitney album actually, you know, I actually enjoy it.

But, like, I at least give all of them a shot. And then there's, like, the last guilty pleasure. of bands that are so catered to me that like I almost feel embarrassed but for the for that band. And I think this is where we have to talk about like the one band that I feel is like the guilty pleasure, the one band where I'm like I was I know I was suckered. I fell for it anyway and I think you and I will have a lot to talk about this band. And we're of course we're talking about beach slang, which is like it just took this whole like, you know, feeling sort of washed rock fan, but like somehow overcoming the odds to the next level. And I mean, I knew at the time that this was not going to age well.

I knew it was I was being catered to. I knew I was being suckered. And like if I were a strong, if it, if I were a stronger person, I would have put my foot down and say like, look, man, like, this is just corny, but I allow myself to, I don't, I wouldn't use the term suckered, at least not for me. Like, I wrote a lot about beach slang. This was like 2015. Like, they're the peak of, I think I put their album, uh, the, the, uh, like, their first, I voted number two. I think it was my number two out of my list. I put a way up on my list. I put a way, which is, you know, I put it too high. But you know what? Like, you're not

reviewing records for posterity. You're reviewing records in the moment. I know. And it, It hit me in the moment in a really good way. I mean, it's funny because I feel like that kind of band that, you know, the beer hoisting rock till you drop type punk band is like I've, it's not like I've given up on that kind of music. I still love that kind of music, but like I'm in a phase that's extended that is like, I'm not really interested in that kind of stuff right now. Like the, like the dude yelling over, you know, the chunky replacement slash Springsteen chords.

You know, like, this is something that, Again, I have a lot of love for it in my heart, but like in the mind frame I'm in right now, it's just not something that I'm really feeling or feeling a lot of excitement for, maybe just because I overdosed on that kind of music. Yeah. In that window of time, that like 2012 to 2015, 2016. I'll retract on being suckered. I mean, like, I've had a real honest reaction to that music.

But, like, there was the critic part of me shouting, it's like, dude, these rhymes are silly. Like, how is this person getting away with it? this and I'm like, no man, don't fight it, feel it. Well, and that's like part of the appeal of that band, I think, was the shamelessness of it. And I think, and, you know, you were saying, I sometimes feel guilty, the guilty pleasure of, like, a band almost pandering to me, like catering too much to me. Yeah. Which I still think that you have to be able to pull that off.

There's, like, a lot of bands I try to do that. I think that they did it pretty well in that moment of time. they just weren't able to sustain it. There was like one gear in the car. There wasn't a second gear. And I think that's the thing with that band. And maybe they'll find that second gear at some point. And we'll all be doing a revisionist episode for Beach Slang, you know?

But I don't think that'll, I don't think that'll happen. But I listen to that first album, those EPs. And it's just like, man, like just take me back to that more innocent time. I mean, the thing, I think the most lasting thing for me with beef slang was that they made me revisit the Gugu Dolls. Speaking of like a mainstream rock band that has no cachet and is pretty uncool, you know, I was like, oh man, there's a lot of good Gugu dolls records from the 90s. Like they're run, I guess, from Superstar Car Wash to boy named Goo and then Dizzy Up the Girl, like those three albums. really good pop rock music. And they were on Metal Blade at one point, man.

They got some real hardcore roots. So, you know, I guess we're coming full circle here. Would Goo Goo Dolls be a guilty pleasure band? I mean, I feel no guilt about liking that, but I feel like they're a band that, you know, I feel like had some revisionism in certain circles, but not a broader, you know, sense of revisionism. I mean, I don't think that's... They got some good singles. like I don't think you can make the argument

of like Dizzy Up the Girl or like a boy named Gou is like a Lost Classic. I think they're in kind of the Jim Blossoms sort of realm where like the singles are just like bulletproof and they're not like terrible. They're not like what they've been seen as is like these like carpet bagger bands

like trying to like make hay off the alt rock boom. You know, but I think there is respect for the craft of a song like Black Balloon. And that's not hard to find these things, which is great. I mean, like a song like Name, which I think I was so sick of at the time because it was on the radio all the time. I was actually thinking about that song the other day.

And I was like, that's a really good song. Okay. I think that's a really good tune. But I must interject here with like, name is good. But then Iris came out. And I had to make a rule with my first year roommate in college because he played Iris like 10 times a day. So I just said to him, like, dude. No more than two times a day when I'm in the room.

He also had eight, he also had five Dave Matthews band posters as well. Man. So, yeah, there, there was a time where I, I, I would, I just hated Goo-U-U-U-U-Dalls for that reason. What a weird song for like a 19-year-old couch student to be into. Even in the 90s. This is the University of Virginia in 1998. He loved Dave Matthews band, Dave Matthews band and Tim Reynolds, Guster, another one. So, yeah, that is college.

That was what I thought college rock was until people show me like, oh, the pixies. I mean, like, in 98, like you wouldn't have to even play Iris, just turn on the radio. I feel like that song was on constantly. But just to be like, no, I still need more Iris. I'm going to play Iris on a loop. Maybe that's what's like the guilty pleasure that's going to come back, like, hoard tour stuff where you get like, I mean, you see some of that with Dave Matthews band, but maybe there's going to be someone who comes around.

with like a really good like blues traveler take or a G. Lovin special sauce. I think the Horde tour is a very, that is an untapped resource for critical reappraising. Well, it's funny that you say that because that would probably be me writing that piece, talking about the Horde bands. Yeah, Woodstock 99, you're off that. Now we're doing Horde Tours. Oh, absolutely. Natural progression.

Well, my boys, the Black Crows were on the Horde tour one year. So, you know, I've already got one foot in the door there. But, I mean, Wilco was on the Horde tour the same year as the Black Crows. Like, right when they put out AM, they were on the Horde tour. Yeah, I mean, that whole, like, mid-90s scene of, like, poppy, hippie music, I think is a really fascinating time where you've got Blind Melon and Dave Matthews band, Blues Traveler, Rusted Root. I guess Spend Doctors would be in there, too. Yep, absolutely. And, you know, Joan Osborne.

Counting Crows are kind of adjacent to that, man. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, they were such a big pop success early on that, like, they were too big to play Horde, I think. Like, they could, I honestly, they were, you know, because, like, that first record sold, like, seven or eight million copies. So, you know, Horde was more for, like, I mean, I think Blues Traveler started that. Yeah, that was, like, more straight jam. And also. I was like...

Yeah, and those bands were like, I think, like a step below in popularity. Although, I mean, Blues Traveler, um, they ended up, like the year that the Black Crows were on the tour, blues Traveler were like the supporting band because the Black Crows were bigger.

And then by the end of the tour, blues Traveler had run around and hook all their big hits. So then they wanted to be the headliner. Man, I didn't think we're... This is why it's great to do reader questions because we're going deep on the hoard tool. We need like an actual episode on the Hort Tour. I think so.

And, you know, we're actually, I think, running short of time here. We have a bunch of questions that we didn't get to. But we're going to do a mailbag segment, I think, every week from now here on out. Don't you think? Yeah, the more Hort Tour. The more Hort Tour questions, the better. If you want to, like, if you want to do smoke and grooves as well, that would be another cool one. Or, yeah, we're just really going to get into the mid-90s festival.

Like given that like the 2010s festival scene of like Coachella and associated tours is not happening like let's do it big 90s warped horde. Oh my God. Lilith. Let's get busy, man. I mean, I love those theme tours. I think that's a I mean, I guess that still happens now. I mean, you've got like some of the smaller festivals that are a little more like hubs for scenes. as opposed to like the broad Coachella Lollapalooza type thing. But yeah, I love that the hippies had like a foothold in the pop world. I think that just shows the diversity of different kinds of music that were popular in the 90s. Whereas I think people were buying CDs for no reason whatsoever. It's like a band like that I just remember like rappers like being like they would like talk like very shamefully. if they didn't sell platinum. That was like a running theme on Red Man's albums.

Like, man, he was selling like 500,000, like, 700,000 albums. And that was, like, shameful for a major label rapper. And, like, back when they cost, like, $18. Right, exactly. Yeah, if you didn't go gold back then, they pretty much just, like, put you on an iceberg, and sent you out to sea. I mean, because, like, yeah, like Local H would tell me, it's like, yeah, man, we sold only $100,000.

And then the label was like, we'll give you one more chance to have a success. Right. Exactly. Oh, man. All right. So we're going to do mailbags from now on. And I would apologize to the people that we didn't get to, but you don't know if we picked your questions. So just rest assured that if you gave us a good question, we did take note of it and we will hopefully get to it to a future episode.

Otherwise, hit us up on Twitter or you can email me at steve. Atoprocks.com. And we'll answer your question. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. We've now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? Steve, you ever just like listen to old music? Like, we talk about new music a lot here, but like old music's pretty tight as well. Absolutely. One of the questions that we didn't get around to today was just talking about like what you consider to be fall albums. And my idea of what albums work well in the fall. like come from a time where I actually lived in parts of the country that have seasons such as

Virginia and Georgia. And when I think about fall, like my mind is kind of frozen in this 2003 to 2005 space. And over the last couple of days, I've really just felt this urge to revisit Radio Rock back from like 2001 to 2003 like stroke. I listened to Is This It? And then white blood cells on the same. same day and the shins. And of course, like, when you listen to the classics, you're going to get into the, you know,

the things, the B-teamers. And to me, no album has holds up as well as like B-team early 2000s rock as the stills logic will break your heart. If you follow me on Twitter, like I may bring this album up like every couple of months, but I was going to say, like, I don't feel like it has to be fall for you to put this album on. But it really... You bring up the stills fairly often.

But something, I do think it has that kind of an autumnal feel to it where, or maybe it's just my own associations with that. But I want to just kind of give a shot, not just to the stills, but also to like the B team of like the New Rock Revolution or this area of time between that, you know, strokes, white stripes and the O.C where you listen to stills, you got to listen to Cala as well. And just going through the Spotify fans also like, it's like, maybe I'll give a Stella Star album, another listener. What about Elephant? Or maybe the second Hot Hot Heat record. With those like as much, you know, it's purely nostalgic. But also it makes me think about new music in a different way because I would highly

recommend you go find the pitchfork review of the. Stills, Logic Will Break Your Heart. It was written by William Bowers, and this guy, like, makes Brett D. Creschenzo seem like, I don't, like, it makes him seem like just some dude on Twitter, like making 140 quote tweets, because this is like just real wild man, um, off the wall type writing. I think it's hilarious. He made fun of the record. I think the review is incredible, but it makes me think about music, uh, nowadays, like, what stuff in my, missing out on that would be like legitimately enjoyable because it wasn't like critically acclaimed or like you know it's so hard to give my attention to new music and I just I also I just worry so many times that

I'm missing out on albums like the stills or like their analogs and say rogue wave uh these kind of B team 7.5 number 44 album of the year type things just because the person who reviewed it, didn't think it was that hot. If there are versions of the stills or rogue wave in 2020, please inform me of who they are. If you're out there doing the work, let me know. Because here I am talking about the stills 17 years later. And I just want that, like, I want that indie rock comfort food. Please tell me what it is, you know?

I think that there's still records. like that. And I think we probably talk about them on this show fairly often. I think most of Indycast core would qualify as that. It's just that those records aren't getting the same kind of push that they did in the early odds. They're not, like the stills, you know, they, we don't remember them as a major band, but like there was like, I feel like when that record came out, you know, there was like a little bit of a push of like, oh, this is like the next big sort of strokes like band. Yeah. You know, and there was like a wave of hype. And now a band like that would only get a wave of hype on this podcast. But that's okay. That's all you need, is the ADCAST bump.

As for my recommendation, I mean, we're recording this episode on Thursday. We come out on Friday. I imagine that on Friday I will be listening to the new Sturgle Simpson record, which is called Cutting Grass, 20 songs, sort of bluegrass reimagining of songs from his first four records. So I'm sure I'll be listening to that, but I have not heard it yet at the time of recording this. So I'm going to talk about some older listening that I'm doing too. I've been really into listening to Brian Eno records from like 1973 to 1977. And look, Brian Eno obviously talked about as a foundational artist of certainly indie music, alternative music. But sometimes I feel like with these huge, you know, sort of iconic artists that you get so swept up in sort of the legend or

like what people have written about them, that the music itself can get lost. And I think it's actually worth revisiting like the greats every now and then. And I've just been so struck by the music that he made in this period and how just, one, like how fresh it still sounds. And two, just like how many people jacked their act from him. And not just people in the, well, I should say first of all that in this period, this period encompasses, you know's, I guess, four pop records, which would be, here come the warm jets, taking Tiger Mountain by strategy, another green world, and before and after science. It's also the beginning of him making ambient records. And there's records like Evening Star, which is a record that he made with Robert Fripp.

There is discreet music, which was, I guess, his first foray into the ambient world. And I'm always struck with Eno because, again, he has this reputation as being the, this sort of intellectual guru. He's the person that rock bands often turn to when they want to stop making guitar music and move into a more experimental direction. You know, that's what Talking Heads did. That's what You Two did. That's what Coldplay did.

Radiohead didn't do it, but they sort of took some ideas that Brian Eno talked about on their records. I think Treefingers was like a direct Brian Eno rip off. Oh, absolutely. And there's also elements of how they made Kid A and Amnesiac that were drawing on some of the ideas. that Brianino had in his oblique strategies cards, and you can read about that more in my book. This isn't happening. There's a quick plug. But anyway, he has this reputation as being this intellectual guru on one hand, but there's also like an incredible warmth and surprising accessibility to his records.

Even the ambient records are always very beautiful and tuneful. And the pop records that he made, again, it's like this combination of like sort of innovative techniques. sort of deconstructing what rock music is supposed to be, and yet it's always very catchy and poppy. And I'm always just amazed by how he's able to thread that needle. And I feel like that is the thing that rock bands were always looking for when they started working with him. How do we make our record sound maybe a little less down the middle,

but also not losing the essential sort of emotionalism that we're going for. I mean, I think that, in a nutshell, is what you too wanted when they first started working with him. I also have to give a shout out to Eno's record from 1990 that made with John Kale called Wrong Way Up, which is maybe a little less celebrated than this initial run that I'm talking about, this mid-70s run by Brian Eno, but again, wrong way up, a delightful record, just wonderful pop songs, almost like a gospel feel to some of the songs, just really uplifting and the kind of music that put me in a good mood when I was contemplating. the darkness of the live music industry.

It's like, well, if I'm thinking about that, I'll put on some of these Eno records, and they put me in a good mood. So, again, if you've never listened to those records, I think, you know, check them out now. If you have, if you're a fan already, go back, revisit it. I think you're always going to find new things in that music

that you're going to appreciate it. With me, like, you know, what I was saying, like when we started this, like, you know, you ever just, you know, listen to old music? Like when I listen to Brian Eno records, I mean, even with all the received wisdom and like baggage of, you know, the canon, I just listen to those records that you mentioned, like the early on things. And I'm thinking to myself, man, like, why don't I just like listen to this all the time? Like, it's the same feeling I get when I listen to Led Zeppelin where it's like, how can I listen to like some, you know, random indie rock like six point zero like forgettable indie rock album? You know, it's like, Maybe I'll just listen to old music from now on because this is like the best stuff I've ever heard. It's weird, yeah, because there's always that thing of like, do I like this because it has the home field advantage of like history on its side? Or, you know, is it genuinely great?

I think it's like a little bit of both. But I think that music, certainly with Eno, again, it's a touchdown for so many things that I like that came after him that it really does feel like going back to the source. in a lot of ways when you listen to music like that. And there's other artists like that that feel like they're the source. And I think, and I'm a firm believer in revisiting that stuff. You don't want to just live in that world. Of course, to embrace, of course, to embrace the new and all that.

But sometimes it's just for nourishment. It's nice to go back to the grates. And then you're nourished and then you can go back and taking the new stuff. Sometimes that stuff is as good as people say. You know. Exactly. So you heard it here first.

Brian Eno was good. Glad we could finally establish that. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We will be back with more reviews and news and hashing out trends and your questions next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.