Indiecast - Lorde, Big Red Machine, and Turnstile, Plus: Jimothy!

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

During last week’s episode, Steve and Ian wondered if the latest album from Lorde, was going to follow a similar trajectory to recent releases from Clairo and Billie Eilish — LPs with rollouts that feel very muted and underwhelming, but the final product ultimately left them feeling pleasantly surprised. Solar Power, however, never manages to spin the narrative and truly deliver, offering a collection of songs that feel bland and difficult to connect with.The new LP from Big Red Machine does not experience the same fate, with Aaron Dessner/Justin Vernon delivering an album that outshines each of their solo output over the last few years. It marks both of the acclaimed indie artists’ transition into a world that feels markedly more “pop,” integrating massive names like Taylor Swift to elevate the project.Last but certainly not least is Glow On, the anticipated new album from Baltimore hardcore band Turnstile. Currently in the top 10 at Album of the Year, Glow On is a good example of how more bands should be making melodic hard rock records. Melodic hard rock is one of the most popular genres of all time and so few people make it now! Turnstile once again prove to be a shining example of how exciting rock music can be.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steve is paying tribute to the life and music of Charlie Watts, the longtime Rolling Stones’ drummer who passed away earlier this week. Meanwhile, Ian is plugging Asbestos Weak Hood, the new album from Ohio emo band Narrow/Arrow.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast on this show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review new albums by Lord, Big Red Machine, and Turnstile. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Jimithy. How are you? I mean, have we already, like, have we already exited the Jimothy discourse window? Like, this was Sunday?

You know, that was Sunday. This is Thursday. And like, I really wonder. Well, recording on Thursday, this is going up Friday. I mean, I think this will be like the last stand of Jimothy jokes in this episode. But it's like we have to acknowledge Jiminy. We got to. In an episode.

Because I feel like this was one of the great moments that we've had this summer on Twitter. You know, the New York Times, they put out their story about this rapper. from England named Jimothy. And wasn't the tweet something about how he doesn't rap about cars and money? Here, so here's the thing that like a part of me like really just feels bad for this writer. Because like imagine like I think about the times I pitched the New York Times and got a polite, you know, pass very like saying, yeah, you know, probably just not as high profile as we might need. and, you know, so there's a little bit of shot in FOIA going on here. But like, imagine, like, being this writer,

you're super excited about this rapper from England who you think is just really innovating the game. They're doing things really differently than other rappers. And you want to get that across. And then you see that the tweet, the one that everyone was dunking on, was talking about how this rapper doesn't, you know, most rappers talk about money,

and cars and, you know, sexual conquests. Which I hate, by the way. I'm glad someone's finally not talking about that stuff. Can we finally get a rapper? Talks about going to the grocery store and like taking advice from the mom. Exactly. That's what we are all waiting for. We're waiting for a Jimothy to come down from up on high and save us from all of this decadence in hip-hop, which we're all sick of.

I mean, you feel bad for the writer. I feel bad for Jimothy. Because you get a profile in the New York Times. This should be a highlight of your career. And it just turns into a disaster. You know, I mean, in a way, it's probably good for him, maybe, because it's a viral story. And we all know Jimenez's name now.

But I don't know. I love the fact that every four to six months, there's this profile of a musician in the New York Times that seems like a parody of a musician that the New York Times would profile. Like, do you remember? That story, I think it was in January, about country music's next emo rap star. Do you remember that story? I do.

I feel like I'm going to win Final Jeopardy one day for remembering that this person's name was Kid G. There's going to be so many things I forget that are important over the next several years. But Kid G, that. And I can't believe that was this year, by the way. Yeah, that was this year. And I think we all can say that. 2021 has been the year of KG. I mean, the New York Times called that shot in January that this would be country music's next emo rap star.

People were skeptical, but I think it's been proven now. We're toward the end of August that Kidd G has been on everyone's lips. We're all banging to his country music, emo rap stylings. Where do we get in the Jimothy Kid G version of like Watch the Throne? Oh. Oh, my God. I want that so badly. Like, first off, it would kind of confirm the fact that these people actually make music.

Look, man, I feel... Did you listen to Jimithy at all? I have not listened to Jimith. I have not listened to Jimith. Like, Jimothy's music could just not possibly meet the expectations I have for it in my head. Like, why ruin this beautiful moment where... I think we have to understand the importance of Jimothy in the big picture is that it is, like, the one rare time where all... factions of Twitter are united on one front and just dunking on this guy like he's Frederick

Weiss. Like I, every now and again, like as cursed and soulless and, you know, with no hope for redemption like music writer Twitter is, every now and again, you get a Jimithee that makes it seem worth it. That's true. You know what? This album in some way has had more impact on my life than, you know, albums that I might actually like. Yeah.

I mean, shout out to Jim. Like all races and creeds coming together to dunk on this story. It really was, like you said, bringing people together in the spirit of, well, not goodwill, but of at least joy. We all had a lot of fun with Jimothy. And, you know, if this is the last stand of Jimothy jokes, which I think it is, I think, you know, we're about five days after that story, which of internet time is like five years. So, yeah.

And in 2022, Jimothy jokes will make a comeback. Like that we'll be celebrating the like every now and again on Twitter you'll see like some like some tweets that's like that are so good. People have to celebrate the anniversary of them. August 20 like whatever day it was August 22nd, let's call it. Yeah. I'm going to mark that on my calendar and just make Jimothy jokes for as until the stars burn out on that day. Yeah. That is August 22nd.

It is, you know, it is a sign that summer is over. Yeah. I think like when they make the period piece about 2021. they're going to play Jimethe songs to, you know, evoke the era in the same way. No, what they're going to do is show someone on Twitter making Jimothy jokes. Like, Jimothy's music must never, like, we can never, ever spoil our Jimithy moment by listening to Jimothy music. I just like the idea of Jimothy being like the Creedence Clearwater Revival of 2021. Like they play Credence to evoke Vietnam, you know, in the late 60s.

They'll play Jimothy. But like you said, it won't be the actual music. It'll just be someone's idea of what Jimity sounds. like, which in my mind is like a kid with a cockney accent talking about his parents over a rudimentary beep. So in other words, it's like the streets. Yeah, basically. Yeah, I just described the streets.

Do we want to talk about Nirvana being sued by the Nevermind baby? Oh, man. Or is this story too dark for us to get into? Because the assumption is that this kid, well, he's not a kid, he's like a grown man now. I hope so. It would be still a baby. That'd be amazing. But we call him the Nevermind Baby, even though he's an adult because it's funny to say that Nirvana's being sued by a baby.

But, I mean, it seems like this is a pretty obvious cash grab. I mean, he's claiming that this is child pornography and that he has had his privacy violated, even though no one would know that he is the Nevermind Baby if he hadn't publicized it. I mean, he does not look like the baby anymore. He's a grown man. so you wouldn't necessarily know that that's the guy if you look at the album cover. I think he's recreated the cover as well. Right. He's like wearing a bathing suit, right?

Right, exactly. But he's saying like everyone has seen my baby penis. So this is a violation and he's suing Nirvana. I don't know. Did they say for how much? I don't know how much was. I was about to ask you that question. I mean, whatever it is, this seems like a look, I mean, it's obviously a cash grab.

maybe it's just my status as an empath. But the fact that like this person is either, you know, down hard enough where he needs to kind of make good on this suing of Nirvana or like some lawyer kind of jinned him up to say, hey, you can actually get maybe not even some money, but like a settlement from the Nirvana estate just to make this go away. It's like kind of the opposite of the Jimpathy story where it's like there's no even the jokes just like. Like, because even the jokes just kind of make me depressed. Like, this is, like, this is why Jimothy is so important because nine times out of ten, if there's an internet story, it's this one. You brought it back to Jimothy already. Like, you couldn't quit Jimothy. I love this.

It's like, it's hard to let Jimothy go. I've been lying to the public. I am not ready to give up, Jimothy. Yeah, what if we just keep bringing Jimithy back, like every episode? It just becomes something that becomes so tired that people think it's funny, that we're just going to beat Jimothy jokes into the ground. We should do a survey about that on our Twitter page. Do you want us to make a Jimothy reference?

Hashing out trends is out, just like rehashing Jimothy is in. We review albums, we rehash Jimothy. And nothing else. That's nothing else. Well, we have a lot of albums to get to today. We do. So, but before we get to those, let's go to our mailbag segment. And if you want to email us, we're at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com.

Also, we are on Twitter now. We're at Indycast 1 on Twitter. Who's Indycast? What's, yeah, yeah, it's right. I guess there was an Indycast before us. It's like whenever you see the license plate that says, you know, like, baller 44 it means that like 43 other people had that idea before you did i mean you know it could just mean indi-cast like we're number one like we're as in like we're the number one

indie music podcast in the world uh and we're the only indycast well there's there's a couple other indie music website a podcast i guess but like we're we're we're the only one that matters i think right isn't that been established the the one the the the the the indicass that it there is an Indycast and it is 24 followers and they've not tweeted since April 2015. Oh man. Give it up. Give it up original Indycast. Yeah.

Taylor and Natalie approved. Mike and Sean get together weekly and discuss anything and everything. But do they hash out trends? No, they do not. And they haven't for six years. I think you got to get the boot. We don't want our listeners. They're going to sue us now.

Great. Oh, fuck. How many, I bet they've gotten some tweets sent to them. in the past week or two from people who are like, want to talk about Muses the Second Law, and they don't understand why these people are reaching out to them. They have Taylor Swift and Natalie Mains, I believe, in their background. Oh, man.

Okay, well, anyway, IndyCats One is our Twitter. We've been commiserating with listeners. It's been a lot of fun. Join the party with us over there, if you were on Twitter. This letter today comes from Beirut, Lebanon. This is like our first listener in Beirut that is written in. This is pretty exciting. His name is, I think it's pronounced Michel.

I'm going to say Michelle. M-I-C-H-E-L. I hope I didn't mispronounce that. It might be Michael. Might be Michelle. Anyway, thank you for writing in. He writes, I've always wondered, how do big music publications like Pitchfork choose which journalist reviews, which album?

I know if Ian did the Foxing Review for Pitchfork, for example, Just to name a random example, the album would have rated higher. So what's the deal? Is there a voting system? Do all journalists have to agree on the review? I'd like to know more about that. And that's from, again, Michelle or Michael in Beirut, Lebanon. Thank you for writing in.

And, you know, I hear this question a lot from people. People are very curious about how, like, scores are determined or how, you know, a particular writer is chosen to write a review. and I mean he's directing this that you're basically saying that if you had written the Foxing review for Pitchfork it wouldn't have gotten a 6.0 it would have gotten like a 12.0 but that's not really true is it

can you can you break this down? Yeah first off I just want to thank Michael slash Michelle let's call him M use the word journalist instead of like critic or writer or blogger maybe there maybe it's just like more dignified line of work in Lebanon but I appreciate that first and foremost.

I feel I feel very astute as if I've written for the New York Times. Anyway, like, as far as how this goes, like, I feel there's been some transparency as far as, like, how this works. And not just a pitchfork, but like at every publication that's a publication that I've written for, you know, it's not, I just love when people get into these complicated and convoluted conspiracies about how scores work and, like, how, you know, the money was exchanged here. and like bag men and all that stuff. And one thing I don't think people understand is that like writers, if you're writing for pitchfork, you're not giving the score yourself. No.

Let's just put that out there. The institution is putting the score on. And they have essentially cast the writer to write the review that is in line with what the editors feel about the album. Isn't that like a succinct way of putting it? Yeah. It's a succinct way of putting in. And also, it's, like, less fun to discuss than conspiracy theories and so forth that, like,

oh, they need to, like, send a blank. They need to send unmarked bills to Condé Nass to, like, get that point four score bumped up. But really, I think what gets overlooked is that so much of this is self-selection. Like, you have to basically pitch. I mean, I think if we take Foxing, for example, a dealer in 2015, like, I pitched that because I'm, like, hey, this album's important in its scene, and it probably wouldn't be covered otherwise. And, you know, when an album's at that level, you can pretty much, you know, have a little bit more say in what it gets, as long as it's not, like, completely discordant with the

editorial voice. You know, near my God, I was in the ballpark of, you know, what editorial thought and, you know, there's some finagling going on. But in the process of doing that one, I kind of assume that my view of this band was not that of the editorial voice. And so I just took it elsewhere because like if I did it like, you know, like Michael or Michelle was saying, either the publication or myself would look very dishonest, you know, because it's either like way above what they think or way below what I think. And so you really just have to, whenever you pitch a review, and this is true regardless of what publication, you have to tell them what you're thinking as far as like grade or stars or score

because otherwise like, you know, otherwise like why would they give it to you? There's like 15 to 20 to 30 to 40 other people who can, you know, reflect that more. And you know, that's just kind of a necessary, I don't want to say evil, but just like part of the gig if you're writing for a publication with an editorial voice. Yeah. I mean, and that's something that is worth keeping in mind. as a reader that there are places like Pitchfork and Rolling Stone just to name two obvious examples that like you said they have an institutional

voice that when they weigh in on an album it's the brand that's weighing in on the album pitchfork gave Foxing a 6.0 the writer did not give the 6.0 the writer is speaking on behalf of the institution like you are

you are there to represent the shield I consider myself lucky in my career that I've written for places that didn't necessarily have an institutional voice. Like, for instance, when I was at Grantland, it was not uncommon to run multiple pieces on an album or a film or a TV show and have different opinions being expressed about that particular thing. Like, I remember when 1989 came out, the Taylor Swift record, I wrote a middling review of the record, and on the same day, they also ran a piece by Molly Lambert that was a more complex,

piece. And I think they ran like right next to each other. And now I'm at Uprocks and it's the same thing. Like I've never asked, what do you think about this record before I write about it? They just let me write about it and maybe someone else will write about it and express a different opinion. And I consider myself lucky in that regard because I think for writers, it is ultimately better to not have to write to an institutional voice because people get to know who you are. You know, easily as opposed if you're just stuck in that kind of system. I think you, Ian, are an exception to that because you write about the same sorts of records. So people know your taste and they know who you are. But it can be hard to step outside of that if you're writing for pitchfork all the time or you're writing for Rolling Stone all the time and not for yourself and not writing from a personal point of view. I also like writing from a personal point of view just because you can also be a little bit

more idiosyncratic. You know, you don't have to affect the... the omniscient critic voice. You can write about records more as like a regular person and say, I don't like this record because I have a bias against this kind of thing. Like you could say that in a review if you're just writing it yourself, that you can't do if you're writing for Pitchfork. And I think that works well for Pitchfork,

because that's the expectation ultimately that readers have when they go to that site. They're reading that because they want Pitchfork's take. Pitchfork has a brand. They have an identity as a website, and the editors are there, it's their job to be stewards of that. So, yeah, they're not going to let anyone just write anything they want. They're going to govern that in some sort of way. But these are things that are worth, I think, taking into consideration.

Maybe like the quickest shorthand for this is that if a site is giving a score, you should assume that editors are the ones picking the score and not the writer. Whereas if there's not a score and it's just a writer's opinion, it might be more likely that they're just writing from a personal point of view. Exactly. And, you know, and there's also plenty of positives for writing an institutional voice. Like, for example, like more people might read, you know, more people might read that, you know, a review of, say, Johnny Football Hero than me talking about it on Twitter or something like that.

So it's a bit of a tradeoff. But yeah, it's almost like a salary negotiation where, you know, you go into a job and they're like, okay, well, what kind of money do you expect? And you know, you kind of have a ballpark idea and maybe you can negotiate a little bit higher. But if like you ask for like 30,000 more bucks, like you're not going to get the job. So does Indycast have an institutional voice? I mean, do we have like an overlord on this show? Maybe we don't want to say this to the public. I mean, that there's like a man behind the curtain here that you and I have to go to to get approval for everything that we say on the show. Yeah. No trend can be hashed out before we have to

submit to redacted. It's like you get exactly 27 Jimithy jokes in this episode. Do not go over like one Jimithy joke or we'll put into other knuckleheads to host this show. The original Indycast, Mike and Dave or whatever the hell those guys who have the Indycast Twitter handle. Oh yeah, yep. They've gunned for us now. Yeah, well, you know, they broke the rules and now they're stranded in Twitter purgatory for six years.

But yeah, that could be us, so we have to be careful on this show. Let's get to the meat of our episode here. We got three albums to talk about this week. Some weeks we have no albums. This week we have a con. Get your shit together, music industry. Beyond the Indycast schedule. Because next week is looking mad light.

Yeah, it's looking pretty weak. But it's raining this week. And we're going to start with the biggest record that's come out, certainly in the past week this album dropped last Friday it's called Solar Power it's by Lord Lord of course is a huge

singer-songwriter and pop star this is her first album in four years since 2017's melodrama which was a big critical hit and I think like a pretty good commercial hit it wasn't as popular as

I think some of the writing suggested I had a friend in radio, he's still my friend who talked about how this record didn't really do big on radio. But you had songs like Greenlight from that record.

That was a big, you know, certainly internet hit. And now we have solar power. And this record has been, is it fair to call it mixed? Or should we just call it negative reception to this album? I feel like for a record of this

size, it's pretty negative. I mean, because we've talked on this show about how often you don't see negative reviews. And, like, Rolling Stone gave this three and a half stars. Oh, that's how you know. That's how you know. Which to me is, like, giving it two stars. I mean, because they're pretty generous, I think, to this, you know, this generation of, like, millennial pop stars. They tend to be pretty kind. So three and a half to me suggest, oh, there's actually not as much enthusiasm as you might expect for this record. Yeah. And I think that carries over to us, right?

I mean, we've listened to this record for the past week. Now we're ready to talk about it. We are ready to talk about it. And just at the top, should we say that neither one of us really like this record? Yeah, it's, you know, I was actually maybe more excited about this album than maybe you were. Because I think melodrama was your album in the year in 2017, right? Or close to it. It would have been.

Yeah, I really liked it a lot. think it's a great record. Okay, gotcha. So, yeah, I mean... No, I would have said deeper understanding was my number one. I'm sure that would have been my number one in 2017, but melodrama was at least in the top 10, maybe top five. Okay. And so, I don't know. Like, I'm experiencing this, this sort of dialectic with, like, the big pop records now where I, like, get completely disengaged from, like, the album rollout aside from, like, the narrative, because I'm not really at the center anymore. And so I don't have to, like listen to albums if I don't want to, but it remind me a little bit of like the Billy Ilish rollout where people really weren't into the singles. And so that kind of opened a lane for me to maybe like this album more on my own terms. Because with melodrama, like you said, it weirdly isn't a commercial success. Like people might look back on that as like, oh, you know,

it didn't sell records, but it turned Lord into this artistic force, you know, the way like Pinkerton or something like that. But, Um, yeah, I think with melodrama, the reason I couldn't really get into it, and I'm going to use this word parasycial, it's one of my favorite terms that I've seen bandied about where basically it's, it's, it's just a way to put a scientific turn to it me. I think that really happened with melodrama where people so, um, put themselves into the album, which, you know, is a sign of good song writing in a way, but it just kind of made it a little bit insufferable. And I didn't really just, I just didn't really kind of vibe with it.

Isn't that every big pop record now? I mean, I think that's every single one. Yeah. But, you know, this one more so because I think that, you know, Lord people grew up alongside her more. But, and also she seems a lot more relatable than I think a lot of like pop, pop stars. But, you know, with this record, the fact that people were kind of muted on it and they said, oh, it reminds me of like Natasha Beddingfield or whatever.

I don't know. Maybe it would be like that Amman Dunes, record that like everyone said sounded like David Gray. I kind of like that style of music. And, you know, at the end of the day, when, you know, Billy Elish and Clara's album dropped, even though they were much more muted than the big millennial pop records or Gen Z pop records that came before, I kind of liked how personality driven they were about like these young artists struggling with fame and self-doubt and, you know, wanting to quit the music industry. I feel like a butt is coming from you here, though. Like you're setting up how

you might have liked this record, but there's a butt coming here though, right? There is a tremendous butt coming, and I listened to this record, and it just had, I thought it was smug in a way that I felt like was really off-putting. I think the reason is, like,

and I, you know, I hate to lump all these artists together, but, like, they do have a lot in common as far as, like, operating at the top echelon of pop slash indie, but I think with this, I'm like Lord is trying to teach us something as opposed to just expressing what they really believe. And I think that discrepancy just makes a lot of songs like California. Like, like, A, you're making a song called California.

You're personifying it. And, you know, and it's not what it seems. And so I think what the reason I just kind of, and there's some great lyrics here. There's some really good writing happening. But also the concept of it, I think just. really misses the mark and comes off like, like again, like she's trying to teach us something about ourselves rather than coming from a part of personal experience. And like when you have to ask if something is satire, uh, I don't know if it really did its job as satire. Yeah,

you know, I like that you use the word smug because that hadn't occurred to me, but I think that's a good way to describe this record and why I don't really like it. And it actually made me think a lot. And other people made this comparison because it's an obvious comparison to make, but the HBO show The White Lotus. Oh, I thought you're about to say Father John Misty. No, I would never compare this Father John Misty.

Which, by the way, pure comedy, that was my number one album of 2017. That was my, and I'll defend that choice to this day. But getting back to Lord and the White Lotus, I finally started watching the White Lotus this week, and I'm about to watch the last episode.

even though I don't like this show at all. It's been really kind of a struggle for me to get through it. And, you know, it's basically a show about privileged white people made by privileged white people for the entertainment of other privileged white people. And it's not particularly funny. It's not all that dramatic or biting or savage. It just feels sort of bland. And I feel that way about the show and I feel that way about this album.

that there's, you know, I actually don't think this album is that smart. I think what bothers me about it is that it's both not fun and kind of insipid, like musically and also lyrically. I just don't think that there's like a lot on this record that is, again, insightful or interesting. I don't feel like she's saying anything original about the state of the world. Musically, it's really flat in a way that is surprising to me. me coming off of melodrama, which I think is such a dynamic record. And I think what people latch onto that record along with the lyrics are, it is just the romantic sweep of a lot of the songs. It's,

it really kind of lifts you up and wraps you up in this world that is very captivating. And on that record and also on her first album, Pure Heroin, you know, she was cultivating this sort of like Kate Bush art pop persona that I really like. And now she's transitioned into this, you know, kind of 70 singer-songwriter mode. You know, there's like a lot of guitar tones on this record that remind me of, like, Hijira, like the Joni Mitchell record, which is my favorite Johnny Mitchell record. And there's all their kind of sonic references to that era, which is something that I feel like I would normally enjoy. And it's also, like when you listen to the Clero record, like she's mining something similar.

but I just find the Clara record to be a lot better than this album. I don't know if it's just because I liked melodrama so much that this record bothers me. I just feel like it's such a step down. And again, I go back to your word smug. I think that's a good word for it, where I think this record thinks it's smarter than it actually is. And that is a terrible place, I think, for any piece of art to be. Like where it acts like it's profound when it really has nothing to say. And it's sort of, again, I'll use the word insipid.

I think this is kind of an insipid record in the same way. I think the White Lotus is kind of an insipid show, you know, like where, like, what statement are you making about this sort of world of, like, privilege that you're a part of. but you're not really taking apart in a way that to me is entertaining or again, you know, elumative. Yeah, I just think this kind of thing is so much harder to do in the current state of things where everything's online. Like, it's almost like people expect Saturday Night Live to still be relevant, but by the time they get, but by the time they get to whatever it is that they're mocking,

it's this topic has already been just so wrung dry that it can be just really difficult to like say. things about the world itself. Well, let's go on to our next record here, which is by Big Red Machine. It's called How Long Do You Think It's Gonna Last? And Big Red Machine is a collective. It was founded by Aaron Desner of the National and Justin Vernon of Bonny Bear.

And it was an outgrowth of the festivals that they've run, like O'Clares in O'Claire, Wisconsin, and the People Festival in Berlin, where they essentially invite all of these artists that they're friends with. to perform and to also do sets together and to, I guess the idea is to make music that you wouldn't normally make on your own, you know, to push yourself into different areas with all these collaborators. And that idea is carried over to Big Red Machine and the albums they put out,

the debut came out in 2018. It was a self-titled record. And now you have this record, how long do you think it's going to last, which features Vernon, along with Robin Pecknold, of Fleet Foxes and Anias Mitchell and someone called Taylor Swift, who's an up-and-coming singer-songwriter. But this album really is, I think, a showcase mostly for Aaron Desner. It feels a lot like an Aaron Desner mixtape. And of course, Aaron Desner has become, I think, a very unlikely, like, pops vengali in the last few years. Like, he's, like, the least likely person that you would expect to become that. And it's interesting because, you know, before I said, you know, I think the end.

idea with the festivals that Vernon and Desner have done was to make music outside of their best known bands and to kind of create, you know, sonic worlds that they wouldn't have explored otherwise, if not for these collaborators. This album, to me, it sounds like sort of like the Err Desner tax. Like it's so Aaron Desner. Like you would, like if you didn't know he was, you know, the engineer of this album, like you could figure it out. by listening to this record. And I love Aaron Desner. I love The National.

So that's a good thing for the most part for me, although I say that with some qualifications. But I'm curious. I mean, like, how do you feel about this record? This seems like an album, I could see you not liking this album. Yeah, I mean, my first issue is that, you know, since we are a podcast that is the only one that exists

at the intersection of sports and pop culture, I got to just express my disappointment that there's no songs about Pete Rose or Cesar Geronimo or George Foster or the actual big red machine. I thought this would be kind of a concept band like Pug Destroyer. But nonetheless, you know, here's the thing.

Like, I do like all of these bands. Like, I do like BoniVare. I do like The National. I do like Fleet Foxes. But you're right. As you were saying, this is their way of working outside of the structures that they've set for themselves.

like if that's the case this album did an incredibly poor job of succeeding on the front because it sounds so fucking tasteful it sounds like a national album that was fronted by Boney Bear and like look I think that's a good thing like I was actually surprised about how much

I enjoyed it because and I'm going to make some statements that will perhaps prove controversial to half of the Indycast hosting duo I can't wait I think that my issue with the last couple, the reason I didn't really feel like I'm easy to find or, you know, to a certain

degree, Sleepwell Beast is I think Matt Berninger is kind of the weakest point on the national albums of late. I think that he's kind of gotten into a bit of a schick. So, and also with Boni Verre's albums, I think that he's kind of disappeared up, you know, into his own head with the kind of experimentalism of, you know, I-I. And, you know, the idea of Boni-Veer fronting a national album, is interesting to me. It's, you know, it gives me an opportunity to hear these two components that I enjoy together and, and just to kind of get rid of the things that have prevented me from being super into their last few records. And I think one of the interesting things that stood out is how Aaron Dessner and Jack Antonoff are kind of playing the same game right now, as far as, like,

kind of jazier, soft rock, folk-inflected indie rock. But, you know, ultimately, it's very tasteful. There are some songs that really stand out as kind of being Dark Was the Night style the National with like the wiggly sort of dirty projectors-ish guitars, which is great. I mean, that comp has cast such a long shadow over the past 12 years. but I think 65 minutes of tasteful that's a lot of tasteful music yeah I agree with you

this album is too long especially given the preponderance of piano-based balance on this record which again if you're looking for Aaron Desner Sonic Hallmarks there's a lot of circular sounding piano licks on this record very reminiscent of some of the recent national records

You know, it's interesting with this album because it is supposed to be this experimental side project. But I feel like in a lot of ways, this is some of the most approachable music that Aaron Desner and certainly Justin Vernon have put out in recent years. I mean, I like the last Bonny Bear record a lot more than you do. Yes, you do. But you haven't heard Justin Vernon just singing over piano music very much lately, which is what you get on this record. So that's kind of a surprise to me When I put this on And of course you have Taylor Swift on the record

She sings on the song Renegade which is already a breakout song From this record And unsurprisingly when you have Taylor Swift On your record you're going to have a lot of pop appeal And that song just pops out As a very immediate pop song On this record

I have to say like I got to do a shout out to Marcus Mumford Because he wasn't invited to be on this record And I want to do This is a sincere thing The Mumford and Sons album that Aaron Desner worked on Which I cannot remember the name of it

Yeah but I know that the wolf That's the song on there That song slaps okay Is it Wilder mind? I'm like not even looking this up I'm just gonna go off the dome I'm gonna I'm googling right now It is definitely wilder mind

Ah I'm the resident Mumford expert Yeah the wolf That song slaps man like I say that uniron that is it yeah that that if if you told if you if you if you if you played that song it did not say who made it i think people would have a far different opinion of it yeah it's really good and so bring marcus mumford into the fold like he's in this family too i feel like um but uh you know to go to your burninger comment there i mean i obviously disagree with that i'm still a big

Matt Berninger, Stan. And I will say that, like, I like this album overall, but my main criticism of it would be that it doesn't have a central personality like a Matt Berninger who really infuses these songs with some humor and a perspective. You know, like Aaron Desner sings on this record. I believe it's the first time he's ever sung on an album. He's got some stones to do that, man. Which, yeah, yeah, and he's got a nice voice.

It's sort of what you would expect. It's kind of like an Elliot Smith, sensitive guy type voice. And he sings a song about his brother called Brycey. It's about them being kids and how his brother... It's a very, actually, very sweet song. It's a song about how his brother helped him through a very depressive time in his life when he was in high school. And a very sweet song. But, yeah, just that central thing.

figure that's something I was missing here. And because I disagree. I don't think he's become a caricature. I love what he brings to the records. And I would actually say that one thing that I struggled with a little bit with I'm easy to find is that Berniger actually isn't on that record very much.

Or he isn't on as much as he usually is because there's a lot of other voices on that record. And I like hearing him. Not to make this all about the national, but like how great would it be if the next national record were just like those five guys in a room playing live and they recorded it in like two weeks. Like that that's my dream of the next national record. Because I feel like in a way this album, you know, it sets this era of Aaron Desner music in Amber, you know, along with the Taylor Swift records that he made.

It's like that, again, piano-based sound with like electronic beats skittering on the edge, low-key thing. I mean, he's milked that for all its worth. how much further he can push that. I'd really like to hear him just play some like rock and roll music again, you know, bring it back to Alligator. I'd love to hear that. Oh man, would I love to hear that? So speaking of Rockerball, we're going to, we're saving the loudest record for last in this episode. This is the turnstile record. And you have a review of this record going up on pitchfork today. Yeah, and I don't know what score it's getting right now. So that just, I mean, I have an idea, but, you know, but this gets to our previous discussion. Like, I don't know the answer to that

yet. I have a ballpark idea. We've not landed on a number. But yeah, this is like kind of the, what big red machine is to you. This is sort of to me. The turnstile for, you know, the indie cast listener who have not heard their funky radical bomb tracks just yet. They are a Baltimore hardcore band. They've been around for over a decade, really broke through with 2015. 15's nonstop feeling, which is a hardcore record that a lot of people were comparing to 311 and Incubis, which is a very interesting thing to compare a hardcore band to. Yeah, I mean, because I've seen that. Is that just because it's like heavy riffs and clean sounding vocals?

Yeah. I mean, that's the only thing I can. Yeah, because there's some funk to it. A lot of their riffs sort of sound like 311's down or nice to know you. Like it's and also, um, And earlier on, Brennan Yates, the lead singer, he rapped a lot more. So it is not unwarranted. And as I'm sure we've discussed many times in past episodes, whenever people compare things to

311 and Incubis and rat chili peppers, you never quite know if they mean that as a compliment. But in two... And I don't think those are as pertinent now, those comparisons. No, not really. They're there, but they're just kind of a thing you say about turnstile out of. of habit. But like I would maybe say like the later incubus albums like Morning View.

Yeah, or Crow left of the murder if you will. Are we going to do an Incubus episode? We've got to do an Incubis episode. I'm surprised that I was able to pull Incubis album titles out of Morning View is the popular one. Well it is and We're not talking post. But still I've given

Okay. Give me a little bit of depth. Yeah. Giving me a little bit of that for just pulling Incubis. I mean should I mention science? Oh yeah. That's the one. Fungus among us. Fungus among us, science, all bangers. But yeah, so because they sound a lot more like a 90s alt rock band, they got, they signed a Roadrunner for time and space in 2018. Roadrunner being a label that represents, of course, coat orange as well. They're like, even though they were like a- Also Creed back in the band. Yeah, they were like a new metal. Like they started out like rapping Slipknot, I think Nickelback as well maybe. So, but nowadays they are like the label that hardcore or metal bands go to when they want to play like the Made in America Festival. That record got a lot of acclaim. They were on the cover of Spin.

A lot of people really love that record. It had Diplo on it, a backup singer from Lauren Hill. But so here we are with their new album. You know, they've done a ton of side projects. It's called Glow On, by the way. I don't think we said the album. Glow on. cover and

this record at the moment has the highest critical consensus score on album of the year which means it tops it's above floating points it's above Nick Cave like people are going nuts for this album you're already seeing like

writers from New York talking about like oh my God this record they rip live which you know if you've ever seen a turnstile show you know that to be the case so this album it's produced by Mike Elizondo. The last one is produced by Will Yip, who's produced a ton of records in this space.

But Mike Elizondo is a guy who's produced Dr. Dre, Fiona Apple, Mastodon. He co-wrote in the club and The Real Slim Shady. And this record puts them in a position, I think, to, like, whatever the ceiling is for turnstile, this album is meant to meet it. This blows time and space out of water, out of the water in my opinion.

I know you like that record. Yeah, I profile. I interviewed Brendan James. Isn't it? Brendan Yates. Yeah, I interviewed Brendan Yates when that record came out. And I agree. I think this record is a lot better than time and space.

And I think time and space is a really fun record too. Fun record. And I just want to say, because I feel like I've talked about this on this show before, that there needs to be more bands making melodic hard work. rock. That is like one of the most popular genres of all time. Some of the biggest albums ever made are essentially melodic hard rock records. And yet there's not a lot of bands doing that. Like either bands aren't hard rock or if they're on the hard rock or metal side, they're making records for like, you know, hardcore metal people. They're not really putting in the pop hooks that some of the

biggest like hard rock albums and songs that, you know, have when you listen to them. And that's how I approach this record and where my appreciation comes from for it because it's like yes finally there's a there's a band that has heavy riffs but they also have just like really catchy choruses and it sounds like a simple formula but there's like not a lot of bands doing that right now and hopefully this record takes off and there'll be a wave of people who want to rip off turnstile and make music in that vein because I really like it and I think this record it shows like how much fun that kind of music can be. I kind of wish this album had come out in June because this would have been like a fun record to have all summer long. It's a really fun summertime record.

But now it'll just be a fun autumn time record, I guess. Well, yeah, I think it, well, it's kind of late summer. I mean, I don't know, with climate change, maybe our window for summer albums is extended. I'm excited because this is going to be the first band that I see live post-COVID. I'm seeing them in Garden Grove, which is a city immortalized by a sublime song, which how perfect is that? But what I'm excited about this album doing is it looks like they're going to tour this album. They've already played a bunch of shows in New York. And, you know, I think it's got that missing element that was in 2020, like a lot of

of great hardcore records. And also, I don't know if you listen to that higher power record from last year, which I think was also on Roadrunner, but it was very much, yeah, but Turnstile, I think, kind of do it a little more creatively. That record seemed more derivative to me, whereas this album, I think, it's fun, yeah, but I think this is like, turnstile feels a little bit more original and they have their own thing going on. You might say they come original, all entertainers come original.

Okay, people are going... Steve, the fact that you're not reacting to that just shows me you're not well-versed enough in 3-11 for me to like throw out these sort of... Look, I mean, I piqued with the incubus references. We can talk about Incubis 3-E.11. I'm much more ignorant about it. We're going to do an entire episode

where we listen to like all 25 tracks on Transistor. I was going to say, Transistor would be the album I would actually be most interested diving into with 3-Eleven just because I remember being in college and having friends of mine who were into 311, described that as 311 Sandinista, which... That's what 311 would tell you is to.

Which I was like, I don't know if that's great or if that's terrible. That's a very weird combination. They played Rubba-dub, which is like one of the back, back, back songs. Like the 18th song when I worked at the Gap in 1999. So that just kind of gives you an indication of like what 311 Sandinista sounds like. Going back to turnstile, you know, and I don't want to get into like a semantic argument here about this, because I really don't care about, like, how people define hardcore. But I, but, like, to me, like, I don't understand, like, how this is,

how this band is still classified as a hardcore band. Because to me, there's really nothing hardcore punk about this record. And I would actually say that for people out there who don't listen to hardcore and, like, maybe have a preconceived notion of what that is and they would be turned off, maybe from Turnstile because they've been described that way. Again, I would say that this is a melodic hard rock band. They're not a hardcore band. And again, a lot of it has to do with the vocals.

This isn't like a screaming dude in your face, you know, that sort of boilerplate, hardcore singer that's in every band. You know, the vocals here are pretty clean. They're pretty soaring, you know, it kind of adds, again, to the pop appeal of this band. I mean, I think the great thing about this band is that they can have, you know, these great hooks on their records and yet when they play their shows they play with the energy of a hardcore band so you're getting like all the good aspects of that but you're also getting

like a lot of sugar at the same time so it seems like they're giving you kind of the best of both worlds uh on this record yeah it's you know what it's like hardcore in ethics and like you know you mentioned the so no matter how insane a hardcore show is you could show someone the sickest Galture drain footage on YouTube and they still might only see oh my god like if I go to a show I'm going to get kicked in the head. Or you're like, or like you're like I don't want to have a dude screaming at me for like 15 minutes. I mean I think I and like look I mean I think for people who don't connect with that a lot of it has to do with the vocals.

People don't. I think if you're not into that kind of music, the thing that turns you off is like, yeah, I don't want some dude screaming at me. And like. Yeah, this guy's kind of more like peri for real. Right. Yeah. Or Brandon Boyd, you know, to bring it back.

Yeah. To incubus. But again, they also have that energy that you would want from a hardcore band and the power of a hardcore band. And again, it's like heavy riffs and melodic vocals. And it just brings it together. And again, I love that. And timboles. And I love that kind of music so much.

And I'm glad someone's making it. And it seems like they're finding an audience. So, you know, I think we're cheering for them to become really big. All right. We've now reached the part of our episode called Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I, talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so my recommendation comes from a band called Narrow Arrow,

and the name of this album is Asbestos We Could. Say it quickly, it's as best as we could. They do puns in that style with their song titles. So this is a, you know, true to form, an emo band from Mansfield, Ohio that I discovered on one of those fifth wave playlists, and it sounds more like early aughts, kind of twinkly, sort of American football derived with harmonized guitars. But if you had someone like local natives on vocals, very smooth, they describe it more as

like kind of a Jeff Buckley sort of thing. Very interesting sound, but the problem when you listen to these sort of playlist is that these bands will put out like one record in 2014 and you never hear from them again. So I was pleasantly surprised to find out they have a new record, which is out today. and it really continues in that vein. It's like if you like that sort of American football guitar style, but you want more of a, how can I put this delicately? Someone with kind of a professional singing voice,

someone who's got like skill. And here's another selling point. Like I did not know this about the band until I saw a video the other night. This guy plays two guitars at the same time while singing. one's an eight string and the other is mounted like a pedal steel and he taps on both um yeah you got like it looks like one of those i guess it looks gimmicky in a way but like you would never know it from listening to the album itself it just sounds like you know two guys playing overlapping tapping rips

which is not over you know it's not something too far gone but this record it's very you know it's 25 minutes um it's got that so it's it's a little bit emo but also you know it's also kind of indie, like I would put dodoes in there as well, if that band means anything to you, and they do to me. This album, it's a real low-key, low-stakes album that hits the sound that's kind of shockingly underrepresented. You would think that there was more bands who were kind of pulling from both of those genres, but narrow arrow as best as we could.

Great album. So I'm going to do a two-part recommendation here because the first part of my, recommendation is actually an album that Ian shouted out last week. It's the Alien Boy record, don't know what I am. This has been my most listened to record this week. The album I listened to for pleasure in between suffering through like the Lord record and some of the other albums that we talked about those records. And, you know, Ian recommended it last week. I've been really digging into it and like, look, if you're a Steve Hayden listener on the show and you're like, I don't know about Ian Cohen choices, I'm going to sign up on the

Ian Cohen choice this week. This is something that I think exists like in the circle between us of our overlapping interests. I mean, to me, this sounds like if the Jim Blossom sounded more like guided by voices, which is so in my wheelhouse. And I know there's people out there who probably feel the same. So definitely dig into this record. Alien Boy, don't know what I am. So that's the first part. I also would be remiss if I didn't give a quick shout out to the late Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones who passed away this week at the age of 80. It's been said many times by many people this week, but I'll repeat it. He is one of the greatest drummers in rock history, the quintessential playing for the song,

not too fancy, but always in the pocket and really driving one of the greatest rock bands ever. And, you know, for those out there who maybe haven't really dug into the Rolling Stones, I think this is a good opportunity for that. And I would just recommend, in particular, the album's Sticky Fingers. which came out in 1971. Lots of great Charlie Watts drumming on that record. As well as the 1970 live record, Get Your Yaya's Out.

I would go right to Midnight Rambler. Great example of what Charlie Watts brought to the band. Just a killer groove, relentless. And again, one of the greats. So again, RIP Charlie Watts. Thank you for your service. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. Thank you so much for listening.

We'll be back with more reviews and hashing out trends next week. And Jimothy. And more and more Jimothy. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week

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