Indiecast - Mailbag: Ska, Big Budget Albums, And More

Episode Date: January 22, 2021

This week, Steven and Ian are once again taking questions from listeners. The episode kicks off with a discussion ska, the oft-maligned sect of punk that people tend to joke about, but also have an encyclopedic understanding of its intricacies. After the recent critical reevaluation of nu metal, is ska next in line for a reinvention? Jeff Rosenstock has been proudly waving the flag of ska for years, and the world is finally starting to come around.There were many thoughtful questions from listeners, guiding Hyden and Cohen’s conversation on the episode and finding the duo discussing their methods for digging into the discography of a newly-discovered artist, the big budget albums they'd like to hear, and the role of Manchester Orchestra in modern indie.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Cohen has been enjoying Downtiming, the debut EP from Camp Trash. Instead of new music, Hyden is taking the opportunity to plug his recent interview with The Wrens’ Charles Bissel, who revealed that the band’s long awaited follow up to 2003’s The Meadowlands might finally be released later this year!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we'll be answering questions from you, the Indycast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? You know, I know this isn't a Indycast Hall of Fame episode, but I do think we need to draw back to, like, last week and make a honorary induction for Doug M. Hoff.

You know, I don't know what this guy's job will entail as the second husband over the next four to eight years or what have you. But in his signature moment, like his first moment, maybe even his only moment, he was, you know, essentially handed America's ox cord and, you know, pulled rank to have the new radicals play the inauguration, like to reunite for the first time in 22 years. And I just can't help but think that he is spiritually. an indie cast listener, you know, the type of dude who in 1998 would loop his win-amp to play, you know, you get what you give, or in the case of me, you know, if I were in his position, the flies got you where I want you. I just think of like, I just think of like what 90s one-hit wonders I would bring to the table, you know, maybe flagpole sita. I think that would also be appropriate. I mean, I think if my, I think of my wife was elected.

vice president, I would have busted out like wax ecstatic at the inauguration. Maybe, you know, maybe a couple sponge tunes. I think they'd be, I think they'd be ready for it. You know, like they represent Michigan, which is a key swing state. Exactly. But yeah. Exactly. Heartland of America.

You're appealing to like disgruntled Trump voters in that state who, you know, instead of storming another capital, they're going to see sponge on television and they're going to feel that, oh, this is the party of reaching across the aisle. And, uh, they're bringing back sponge. This is great. I don't want to imply that sponge is all right. Like, can we, can we just like put that out there? No. They have a, they have a broad coalition. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not suggesting anything about sponge in particular. I'm just saying that they, you know, like many 90s alt-rock acts, they had a broad coalition. Yeah. You have Democrats. You have Republicans. Yeah. You have urban dwellers. You have rural people.

all coming in together because they liked rotting pinata, you know, a lot of bangers on that record. Absolutely. Can I say, too, that like the name second husbands is just sitting out there for some indie band to take as a band name? I think that'd be a pretty good band name. Because, I mean, is that the official title, Second Husband? I actually do. I don't know. And, you know, perhaps in the next five minutes or so, I'll drum up enough interest to look it up. But let's go with Second Husband. I think that's. I do think that, or the vice husband, I really don't know. I don't even know what dog Amhoff was like. They say first lady, so would it be like second guy?

Like you're the second guy, you're the second dude? The second dude isn't like, I think that is, that's kind of been the dream job for a lot of like indie people. You know, just kind of having that sense of power, but also just like kind of hanging back. I'm just hoping he gets into some hijinks. I love his name too. He just sounds like a guy that works in your office. Doug M. Hoff. Down in sales, Emhoff. You know, it's just such a regular dude, but now he's, you know, in the White House.

You know, he's helping Kamala do her job, you know, serving America in his way. By the way, like, this is the first episode of the post-Trump era. And maybe it's wrong to define this era still in terms of Trump. But I still feel like, you know, all due respect to Joe Biden. I'm glad that he's the president. but I did find it funny and interesting that like on inauguration day, I saw way more photos of Bernie Sanders than of, and it was just the same photo,

but, you know, way more of Bernie than Joe. Way more memeable, man. Way more memeable. But maybe that's his point. His point is not to be in the media. It's just to be this old man that is going to be in the White House, not causing a ruckus, and we can continue to meme, like, other things now.

To me, like, that Bernie Sanders thing is like, is that what Twitter's going to be now? Instead of just people rage tweeting about Trump, it's just going to be like fun memes about Bernie and like indie rock contracts. No, it's going to be that. And it's also going to still be like rather than like comparing every political thing to Harry Potter, it's going to be like kind of Avengers fanfic. It's going to, it's going to be insufferable. And I'm actually kind of thinking it's going to be so insufferable that this may be like where Twitter finally dies out. So, you know, fingers crossed. I guess. I don't know. We're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, we're at the, in DeCast is always going to be the first to tell you about what's happening on that precipice. Has it been, uh, decided yet if Joe Biden is good or bad for punk rock? Like, what's the punk rock? What's the punk rock heat check right now? Uh, with, with, with, with, with, with, in the Biden years. I don't know, most punks are too busy, like, you know, putting Bernie on, uh, the

any meme in front of like a merch table or like on classic album covers. So when once they finally get that out of their system, we can get a sense of like whether or not. I mean, because if you look at like what the inauguration was in a lot of ways it had a very late 90s sort of flavor to it. So right. I'm trying to like what what was not. I think maybe we'll see like a real pop punk revival or something but who's the say man yeah i wonder if there's going to be like obama core you know like the like the first Obama administration like things that were popular yeah and like the late odds if that's going to be a thing because people were just nostalgic for like the pre-trump yeah era or the late 90s you know it's going to be like

yeah late 90s or or late odds like because you had um you know new radicals come back who fighters maybe they should have like they had food fighters maybe they should have had peter biorna john in there too doing young folks that was actually that was actually bush era though was that 2006 that's true 2006 oh you're right yeah man i yeah the this is yeah the blog rock era was mostly bush yeah i guess that's right so bush was great for blog rock i guess like he he was great for blog rock Obama killed blog rock yeah i guess and then americana and like you know, like indie folk or arena folk. Yeah.

Chill wave. That's true. That makes sense, like, with Obama and, like, Mumford and Sons being big, that very earnest and, like, uplifting kind of music, you know? Like, I feel like whenever the Obamas are on television now, like that inspirational, like, Oprah orchestra-type music comes on, and it's, like, very uplifting. And I feel like we're going to get a lot of that.

And I could see that becoming. being like a little tiresome at some point. You know, because even like I was happy that Biden was elected, but some of the commentary, it's like, okay, let's calm down. We're still in a pandemic. We're still facing like a climate catastrophe. You know, there's a lot of things facing us that we had to deal with. But the bad orange Cheeto man has gone said my non-existent two-year-old daughter, you know.

All right. Well, hey, we're having some political talk here. We're veering a little bit into political talk. So maybe we should get out of there. and get into our mailbag here. We're doing a mailbag episode. I think I can speak for you in that. I love our mailbag episodes.

I love having conversations with our listeners. We have great listeners. They always come up with great questions. So this is always a pleasure to converse with our people. Wouldn't you say? Men of the people. That's what we are. That's right.

We're not hiding behind, you know, National Guard. and barracks. We're extremely easy to find. We are. So let's get to our first question here. This comes from Greg. Greg, thank you for writing in. He says,

2020 felt like a big year for critical reassessment of new metal. I was wondering, well, ska, another maligned genre from the 90s and early 2000s get the same treatment. I'm thinking specifically about third wave scah bands like Real Big Fish, less than Jake. the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones, et cetera,

seems like the lack of continuing impact, and the way these bands didn't take themselves too seriously might be working against a resurgence. Can I also do a shout out to mustard plug? Always. Does anyone remember, do you remember mustard plug? Of course I remember mustard plug. I always mix their songs up with Real Big Fish,

because Real Big Fish did sell out. It did sell out. And beer. That was another big one. That was the one my first year roommate at college really loved. Oh my god. You're really catering to like the like 16 to 20 year old demographic if you have a song and more people need to have songs called beer. Like if you want if you're like an indie band and you're struggling just write songs about beer. I mean I guess I guess there are a lot of bands

that do that already. Yeah. But anyway. Oh like they they do it like kind of peripherally like it's beer music but not so explicitly about beer. Real big fish they just they they They knew their audience. Yeah, and I feel like they were directed at teenagers. I feel like a lot of the beer songs now are like by, you know, and I say this with affection because I like a lot of these bands, but they're like guys in their mid-30s talking to like other, you know, sort of like cool dads drinking in their backyard.

Brue core, yeah. Yeah, but like the real big fish, that was like, they're talking to people that maybe have never had a beer before or like, or sneaking beers. Exactly. And that's like another demographic that is maybe not being addressed. I don't know, like, I don't know how you feel about this. The first thing I thought about when I read this question was Jeff Rosenstein.

Yes. Because I feel like Jeff is the one, you know, I've talked to him about Scott. I feel like Scott comes up in his other interviews. He's already in a ska band. He's in a ska band. And like on his own records, there are usually like a couple ska songs or Scott adjacent songs on his record. So he's definitely flying that for. flag unashamedly.

I don't know how you feel about this. I feel like ska always kind of exists in the background. You know, sometimes it bubbles up a little bit, but I feel like there's always like some kind of Scott thing going on, which is maybe a little bit different than New Metal. I feel like New Metal is more associated with a specific, you know, decade moment of time. But, you know, Skah associated with the 90s, obviously, you know, started in the 70s. You know, there were ska bands in the 80s. I feel like it always kind of exists.

I'm from Appleton, Wisconsin. We had a festival called Scoppelton, of course. It's called Scoppelton that existed like well after the 90s sort of fad faded. And there were like people that were really into it, you know, because it's like fun dance music basically. So you go out and you have a good time listening to it. But I guess this listener is asking like, will music critics be doing like think pieces? on ska and like you know sunday reviews on you know uh on the real is that real big fish record

called sellout no oh god it the name escapes me but um i i i know it i can see the album cover in my in my in my roommates uh disc uh you know like it's his uh cd tower alongside like several guster albums and like d matthews and tim reynolds um yeah it's turned the Radio off. Turn the radio off. Ah, God. It is the big one. Yes, that is the one. Yeah, that's the big one. Yeah. That's the big one. That's the Sunday review choice. If you're going to do like a SCA revival type critical reassessment. Or let's face it by, you know, the mighty, mighty boss tones. That was like, that was one of the big breaks because that was the one with the impression that I get. But, you know, I'm looking at on my bookshelf as we speak an advanced copy of a book called in defense of SCA. It was sent to me because the author Aaron Carnes thought I'd be the type of person who'd be amenable to a ska revival.

And like here's the thing. Like, I don't know. Like, I think Scott is like kind of fun to debate. It's kind of fun to hacky sack around. Like, it's like unlike new metal or like, you know, some of the other genres that have been rehabilitated in the past several years. Like, Scott was, it was big in the late 90s, but it was never like the sound of the culture the same way. like new metal or like, you know, nickel back or like any of these other things that like are assumed to be bad.

And so you can talk about it without any real threat of it coming back because even before like, you know, even before like right now, it's hard to make a scobank because you need like eight people in it. And a lot of these bands that we talk about like, you know, mighty mighty boss tones, less than Jake, of course, real big fish. I mean, they were like touring. they were relentless touring machines before they ever got popular. And so both of those are really, really tough to do in the modern, in the modern era.

So I think there are like little bits and pieces of Scott coming back. I think of the band Bad Operation that's out on community records. It's a band that kind of does more like indie rock out of New Orleans. There's the Scott Toon Network. I'm a huge fan of the Scott Toon Network, which is, You know, it's a YouTube channel that does ska covers of, you know, like American football, modest mouse, sum 41. I think the Scott Tune Network cover of The World is a Beautiful Place, January 10th, 2014 is

damn near definitive. But I think in that there's maybe not going to be a new, like, real big fish. There's not going to be a popular Scott band. For whatever reason, I think the format of TikTok could make it possible that, like, certain ska songs can have. a new moment because it's such a distinct dress style. It has such a distinct language and it's such a distinct rhythm that you could just make like a video of dancing over it for a minute. And that would be enough. So I do think maybe we'll start to see Scott infiltrate in that way.

And I don't know. I think that like Scott is it's something that people kind of have more of a positive. It's like embarrassing in some ways for people. But it's not. seen as like this cultural like you know this like pox on our culture the way say like new metal was so I think yeah I yeah I think people like associate new metal with like you know actually destructive things I think in like like unfairly I think in a lot of ways but like with ska people have kind of a joky attitude about it but it is also like infectious fun music I mean it's hard to to you'll be angry at Scott. Maybe you find it annoying if you hear it.

But like it's, you hear it and like, if you just give yourself over to it, it is fun. Like, again, it's dance music, it's social music. It is the kind of thing that I think even now,

like as we're all in this quarantine, like, wouldn't it be kind of fun to go to a Scott concert with a bunch of friends and drink too much and, you know, do that kind of thing? It seems kind of fun at this point.

I have to say, too, I'm just going to put this out in the world, a very sort of deconstructive sensitive indie folk cover of beer by Phoebe Bridgers. Yeah, maybe that's what it is. Like maybe we just like, she's got like the Midas touch right now. If Phoebe Bridgers like gives her okay to ska, maybe that's what like maybe that's what's going to happen in 2021. Like we will just have an entirely new outlook on less than Jake who by the way like, you know,

being from Gainesville, there's always that SCA undertone to like fest and that festival. So it never goes away, but like I think it's been there's, I would say a not zero possibility that we might see like also like a band like just friends. I have to give those guys a mention. They're like kind of kind of in the emo world. Like they are straight up SCA. and, you know, I think they're putting out a new EP soon. So maybe they're the ones who break big. I don't know.

But you know what? Like, it's, it's, I'm open to it. It's fun. It's different. It's something new to talk about. Exactly. And, you know, again, I'm all for music that has a good heart and is just trying to make people, it's just trying to make people feel good, you know, which I think is what Ska essentially is.

And so I'm in support of that. I also will say that, like, even if you're not a ska band, I love the idea of just having someone in your band who doesn't play anything, but just, like, dances around. Yes, that... Like, I think... There's, like, a lot of dour bands out there are kind of boring bands that are good, but they're boring live.

If you had, like, one dude who's just, like, infectious and danced around, it would add so much to your life. That's from the Happy Mondays, man. Bez. Bez... Happy Mondays. They had one. What was the guy's name in Boston's?

It was Ed, or so... I forget. But yeah, he was the dancing dude. And even as they all push past 50 and Dickie Barrett is this emissary in Boston, still there. Still dancing after all these years. Good for him, man. I love it. All right.

Moving on to our second question. This comes from Alex. Alex says, hey, Stephen Ian, huge fan of the pod. This is pretty much the only podcast I listen to. Wow, Alex. That's awesome. Thank you for that. We can edit it right there.

Yeah, there we go. He says, I've always been a fan of records like spiritualized, ladies and gentlemen, we are floating in space or Talk Talk, Spirit of Eden, where it seems that the label just gave these people a huge budget to do whatever the hell they wanted. What group slash artists today would you most want to see a label give a blank check in five years to make a record, regardless of whether you think they'd make something incredible or their Chinese democracy? Even though I'm not the biggest fan, I'd love to see what the 1975 would put out in this scenario. Don't they do that with every record?

I guess it's not five years, but I, it's like, I feel like that band, you don't really need to, like, imagine what their sort of expansive, excessive record would be. I think Matt... Like, I want to see what their paired back record would be. I think that would be sort of the sort of interesting thing with that band at this point. But that's a, that's a rabbit hole that maybe we don't want to go down into with this question. But, like, who would you... This is a good question.

Like, who would you want to see in this scenario? Yeah, I mean, we... all roads seem to leave to the 1975 during our mailbag. But yeah, I mean, for me, I get where Alex is coming from as far as like what sort of bands you'd like to see, like throwing a lot of money. I would like to think that like on the low, this is what's happening with the hotel year right now. But like the last time a label guy tried to throw them a lot of money, it was Martin Schrelli. So I just think that they're pretty much done. I think they're pretty much done with like, you know, the music industry at this point.

But in some way, like, I don't, you don't think of like a lot of these, like, emo bands is, like, ones that would benefit from being given a lot of money. But I also would like that because so many of these bands that I love, you'll see them on Twitter talking about, like, having to, like, you know, take time off from making the record to work at their real jobs or, like, you know, they have to quit the band because, you know, it's just not financially tenable. So, you know, I'd love to see, like, you know, what Foxing might. come up with if like all the guys in the band were like you know financially secure or the same with like

you know the world is a beautiful place like if they just had time to focus on the music um which i think that the pressure of you know having a lot going on life can lead to great music but also with these sort of records that uh alice is talking about it's like you also want like a label that's just going to like willing to bankrupt itself on behalf of your difficult art but you know the ones I think of, you know, with spiritualized talk talk, you have to think about like acts that are already kind of like artistic or bad word, but like ones that have a yen for evolution and they like to, they're kind of standoffish in some ways. The ones that come up to me are like young Jesus and big thief because when you look at like how they operate as musicians, they love to evolve and

kind of throw away old ideas. And I think that they try to regenerate their sound with every album. And if they were to take like five years off, I would love to hear about like where they take themselves musically. But I also think that like both of those bands are extremely enamored with process. And they they just like to put out whatever they record. And especially with like young Jesus where like improvisation. capturing mistakes is like part of the appeal.

So I don't know if like they would actually be okay with that. But I want to give a brief shout out to these new Puritans, which is a band that like pretty much did talk talk in real time like in 2010 and 2013 with Hidden and Field of Reeds. I don't know if they like bankrupted Domino or like how much money they were given because a lot of it was synthesizers. But like those two albums are very much in that. lineage of, you know, they were, they were like a kind of a wiry post-punk album, band on their first album. And then they make hidden in 2010, which has like Japanese

tycho drums and like, you know, choruses of like, you know, like boys' choruses and like the world's deepest voice. And just like all these weird musical trick shots that they have no intention to tour it. And they kind of just like don't, for some reason it ended up town tracking a Victoria's Secret ad. But, you know, these new Puritans are like a band that seems like the most obvious descendants of Talk Talk and feel the Rees especially because they just got rid of all the guitars, all the synthesizers, all like the drum machines and just made like a really pretty orchestral album that just had no commercial potential.

But the thing about them is that they didn't sacrifice their pop appeal. the way Talk Talk did. Nonetheless, if like, Alex, if you haven't heard these new Puritans, I would go with those. I want to go back to what you were saying about Big Feet because I think that's like a pretty great answer to this question for me because you're right. I mean, they have changed musically over the course of like their four albums or so. But I feel like in terms of using the studio, they haven't really done a whole lot with that yet.

It seems like you said, like they record things quickly and they put them out. and it's really about using recording in a very straightforward utilitarian way. And as much as I love that band, and especially I love their first two records, I do feel like because of this way that they're working, I wonder if they are going to kind of run into this like diminishing returns at some point where to me,

like their records are starting to seem like a little samey. And, you know, we've compared them to Wilco before on this show. And I would love to see them attempt something like a summer teeth or a Yankee Hotel Fox Trot, like where they really kind of use the studio as an instrument and like take their songs sonically in like a much different and more expansive direction because I think their songs are great, but they're not always presented to me to their fullest potential. So like I think like in this kind of scenario like where maybe they didn't just put out.

an album every six or, you know, eight months, and they spent, not even five years, spent like a year or two making, like, a record, you know, that was just kind of weird and, like, expansive sounding. I, I would really love to hear a record like that from Big Thief. I also have to give a shout out, you know, in the name of Indycast Core to, like, I think for me, like, one of the great sort of, like, anthemic rock bands on the planet right now, and that's gang of use. who already make, you know, similar to the 1975, they already make these sort of huge sounding records, like their last record Go Farther and Lightness,

has, you know, just grand string sections and like very epic sounding songs. But I would love for them to be in this scenario, like where they had like a huge budget and they could spend a long time and, you know, maybe work with like 100-piece orchestras. And, you know, it just makes some... something just incredible sounding, like, across between like Pet Sounds and the Joshua Tree.

You know, I think if any band on the planet could pull that off right now, it would be gang of it. Didn't they already do that on the last album, though? Like I... Well, they did. They did, but like, you know, I don't know, even more so, like, just double down. Like, you really go... You know, you mentioned Chinese democracy before, maybe make, like, two use your illusion

type albums, you know, like, something like that where... where it's almost too much, you know, like, I would love like an almost too much type record from them or, or set of records. I would like a record from them, because it already has been like four years. I guess, yeah, I guess that was 17? Wow, okay. Yeah, I wonder what they're up to. We got to drop Dave a lot. I want to see what Dave's up to down there in Australia.

Moving on to question three. This question is also from Alex, but it's a different Alex. We have a lot of Alex's out in our listenership. The Alex constituency is strong with Indycast. Alex asks, here's a question I've been puzzling over for a few years. When you decide to check out a band or artist with a decently sized catalog for the first time, where do you start and how do you listen? Do you start by scanning the top tracks on streaming platforms?

Do you go to the most recent release, the oldest release, the top album suggested by the platform, wherever. Are you comfortable skipping around, not even finishing songs to get a sense of the artist? I've noticed that when I encountered the situation, I often start by going with the most recent release to see what that artist is feeling at the moment. But this method seems insane when I think about all the amazing aughts acts I would pass up on if I just listen to the most recent release. And Alex mentions Land of Talk, Owen, real estate, and also Arcade Fire and The Killer. So, you know, which I, and I think that's true. I think a lot of times, especially if it is an artist who's been around for like, say, maybe 20, 25 years, yeah, maybe you don't want to check out the most recent release.

You want to go a little bit deeper. But, I mean, this is a good question. I feel like this is like a good sort of pragmatic thing that a lot of people go through, you know, like where you hear about a legacy artist all the time. Maybe you hear about it on the show. You read about it. And you're like, well, I want to check this person out. but like where do I start? They have like 10 albums.

They have 15 albums. What would you suggest to this person? So when I first really started having like quote unquote phases where I would find an artist with a very deep intimidating catalog and like try to work my way through it. I just remember looking on all music guide. Like this is one of the more trustworthy like sources for music information back in. like 2001 where I'd be like really bored at work and there just wasn't that much internet to look at and what I love about all music guide is that it hasn't really changed all that much since then like it does give a pretty good concept of like which are the classics which are like the

maybes and which are like the you know for like tasters choice only and I honestly feel like that's kind of the way to go it really just depends on like what my purpose is in terms of discovering a new act. Like, if it's an artist who I just haven't listened to and I feel like they might appeal to me, like, I'll start with the classics. Like, I'll start with the one that sounds like I need to know this album and other to understand who that person was. And as hard as it is for me to grasp that someone might have to, like, work backwards

through Arcade Fire's discography, it has been 17 years since a funeral. So, you know, that does make sense. sense. But usually, like, I do start with, like, the five-star album, and I try to work my way through it. Um, and then, like, I just try to recreate what I did back in my CD buying days, which is that, like, you would find some way to get the classics. You know, with Bruce Springsteen, like, born in the USA is something I had already heard more or less through radio over exposure. And so I would go to the UCD store and see which ones were in there. Um, and, and, um, and, go with that and you know just kind of give them my attention um but i think you know for even now in

2021 like all music guys just such a great resource as far as like kind of getting a sense of like which ones might appeal to you as a listener because i think when you're talking about like artists with such a wide ranging catalog um they're you're gonna have like this sense of like which of these is worth your time and which one, you know, are you just doing because people say you are. And, you know, for me, like, Prince is a great example. Like, I didn't need to buy Purple Rain. I didn't need to buy, you know, sign of times. But, like, around the world and the day, like, those ones where you're just like,

oh, cool, there's a Prince CD in the UCD rack and I've never heard of it. Like, or the cures of the top, for example, like, I think it's oftentimes more fun to start with like the the albums that like get the two star reviews or what have you. As far as starting with the most recent one, that I don't know. I don't think that's like the best way oftentimes to like do a deep dive within an artist. But you know, the good news is you can do this pretty much for free. I mean, I can't think of like how many, how many dollars I threw away in the early 2000s when I didn't have much money to spend because I really.

felt like, maybe I need to give Lucky Town a chance or whatever that other one. What was that other Bruce Fingston? Oh, Lucky Town's good. Human touch is garbage. The Lucky Town is pretty sound. Yeah, but you know, yeah, look, I'll just second the AllMusic Guide recommendation. That's a great place to go to just get like the basic information about an artist and to get clues on where you might want to start. You know, you mentioned like the five star album. You know, that is a good place to start often, although I will say that when we're talking about like really canonical artists who get played a lot, like on the radio, classic rock radio, you know, like a Bruce Springsteen, for instance, you know, sometimes like if you go like right to born to run or born in the USA,

it can be a little boring to start with those records because like you might feel like you've heard all those songs before. They might have created like an image in your mind of who that person is that is really fixed and can be hard to get over. And sometimes I think if you start with just the classic, it can end there. Because you feel like, well, I've heard the classic. I get the point. And then, you know, it's familiar.

I'm bored with it. I'll move on. One thing I'll suggest is that I think sometimes, you know, you mentioned like going for like the two-star album, which I like doing too. I like digging into things. I think another good tip is sometimes, like, if you know that there's like a particular

album that is really popular or critically acclaimed, sometimes like listening to the album right before that or right after that is a good way to go. Like the album that like set up that success or the album that followed that success where oftentimes the artist is like reacting against the success that they just had and going off in a different direction. So to use Bruce Springsteen as an example, instead of listening to Born to Run, maybe go check up the Wild, the Innocent and the East Street shuffle. Or instead of born in the USA, go to the next record, Tunnel of Love. Or if it's Neil Young, instead of going to harvest, go to the records he made after that where he was reacting against that sort of pristine folk ballad style that he was doing, records like on the beach or time bades away.

Because I think sometimes if you do that, these artists who seem like really familiar and fixed and, you know, you feel like you know everything already, they start to seem a little bit more fresh. and it can be a way to sort of access these artists who are so canonized. It makes them feel that maybe they're a little more approachable. And so I think that's a good way to do it too. But yeah, like you said, we really do live in an era with streaming, and this is one of the great things about streaming, that you can become an expert on an artist in a week.

You can hear everything that they ever did. you can read articles about them online and really kind of get a good feel for who they are in a relatively short period of time. So, you know, that's a pretty cool thing to be able to get. Think how much I could have accomplished as a 20-year-old if I could compress my like semester-long Bruce Springsteen phase into a week, you know. All right. So let's get to question four.

This is from Mac. Thank you, Mac. With the release of Julian Baker's new album, Fast Approaching in the success of Phoebe Bridgers and Tushé Amore's records last year. I've been thinking about Manchester Orchestra. Phoebe has covered the band. Julian Baker is on the cover of their latest record, and Andy Hall has a feature on Lament,

the Tusha Amorea record. I know you wrote a positive review of Black Mountain to the Surface. I think he's talking to you, Ian. He is. And negative reviews of Simple Math and Cope. And this listener calls Simple Math a Good Record and Cope their worst record,

which I disagree with. but I am curious if you have ever revisited their back catalog and if you think maybe they are due for a critical re-appraisal their first three records are excellent, particularly mean everything to nothing in my opinion, and they seem to be influential on both emo rock bands and those in the folk emo singer-songwriter realm, talking about Phoebe and Julian.

Before you answer this, Ian, because I feel like the listeners addressing you more directly than me here, I just want to say that, like, I actually profiled Manchester Orchestra back when a black mouth of the surface came out in 2017 and actually got to go out to the suburbs of Atlanta where the band is based and you know we hung out I hung out and they're like they have a house where they rehearse and record

we went to get sushi and all that kind of stuff and it's actually making me like nostalgic for when I could still do that when I could go visit bands personally and interview them which was really fun but I feel like you and I disagree a little bit on Manchester Orchestra Orchestra. I think I probably like them more than you do. And this listener mentioned the album, Cope as like their worst record. I actually like really like that record. That came out in 2013. And I'll say that like if you are a person who like generally like doesn't listen to a

whole lot of emo music or emo adjacent music that I think this record would maybe appeal to you more than like some records from that scene. Because like to my ears like Cope to me sounds like Band of Horses with like heavier guitars. You know, like Manchester Orchestra to me, I think, I don't know. I know that they come from like a punk tradition, but like I, when I listen to them, I don't really hear much punk in their music. To me, they sound more like sort of a classic alt rock band, you know, like a band from the 90s or like, you know, maybe like early 2000s.

And I feel like they might have been grouped into that scene if they had come out in the 90s. but because they, I think they put out their first record, like, in the mid-aughts or show. Yeah. That was around the time, like, when, like, Brooklyn Art Rock was ascendant. That was, like, kind of the defining sound of indie rock. And, you know, Manchester Orchestra was, like, doing the opposite of that, basically, making these very, again, like, cathartic, big sounding, anthemic, heavy guitar-type songs. And, again, like, Cope, Simple Math is a record I like a lot.

I think a black mild to the surface is actually like one of their stronger records too. And that record, there's songs on there that kind of remind me of the national. Like there's a couple kind of songs like that on that record. So yeah, I agree. I think that this is a band that depending on who you talk to, I think for a certain generation of like emo and punk listeners, this is like a pretty big band. But like people outside of that scene don't seem to know who this band is at all. And I think there's actually a lot of people who maybe have never heard of Manchester Orchestra

that would actually really like them. And I would start with Cope. And I'm going to contradict Mac here. I know Mac is in the fan of that record. But I would actually say, like, if you're a newcomer, that's actually a pretty good place to start, I think. Yeah. So by all rights, I mean, like this guy suggests, like Manchester Orkstra should be a band.

I absolutely love, you know, regardless of like whether I've enjoyed their music or like not, I do agree with you that it does set like pre-cancellation. I said that they sound like brand new meets band of horses. That's like whether the songs are good or not so good. But yeah, I want to say like I saw this band open for Sufion Stevens on the Illinois tour in Athens, Georgia. Like I remember coming in and seeing Andy on the stage. Like he played the last song completely solo, walked out of the stage without saying anything.

And it was just like, man, who's this young guy? I think he is. It was, you know, really interesting. And he at that time was compared to Jeff Mangum, Connor Overs, Sufian as well. And it's like, man, this should be absolutely my shit. And so, I mean, if there's any sort of critical myths that we debunk around, here it's that of like critical objectivity I think that so much of like what we try to put off as like

expert opinion is really just more or less based on where we're at in our lives and as you pointed out like when Manchester Orchestra is really getting started in earnest with like I'm a like with like I'm like a virgin losing a child or mean everything these these album names are so complicated before he did simple math and cope this was when I like so many emails kids that I talk to. They make a real hard pivot into indie rock, like basic indie rock in their late 20s. And yeah, for me, I was fully grizzly bear, fully art indie, fully chill wave. And, you know, I often wonder if like the critical treatment of those first couple of

records influenced me as I reviewed simple math and cope. And, you know, I appreciate what they did. I do love a band that's kind of old school alt rock. like they would be the sort of band that exists in the 90s and would have been pretty major back then. But then I listened to a black mile to the surface and it kind of validated what I was saying before because it's like, yes, this is what I was hoping

that Manchester Orchestra would make. The first half of Black Mile at the Surface is just unbelievably good. Not unbelievably, I think they showed the potential, but it's just such a strong conceptual, like big production. album. I think it had like three producers working on it. And, you know, with that with that album, I kind of more appreciated what they were trying to get to. It seemed like a culmination of,

like, what Andy Hull was working on. You know, I do regret the reviews I'd written before. I know Andy Hull is not a fan of me. But, you know, I do appreciate what Manchester Orchestra has meant to people who are younger than myself, like a lot of the artists that you mentioned. I know he's working on the new Foxing record. And God, like, I've seen so many of my favorite bands open for Manchester Orchestra that I really, really, really wish I liked them more. And, you know, I think it's worth me going back to those old, like, I can remember off top of my head, like, songs like, I've got friends or, you know, Simple Math or Virgin,

that song's, like, really cool from that album or The Ocean from Cope. And, you know, maybe they're just like the kind of band that is an alt rock hitmaker. You know, if I were like 10 years younger, maybe they'd be like my favorite band on earth. But nowadays, I can just appreciate them as perhaps a one of the rare, I guess, like contemporary big rock bands that would be best served with a greatest hits album. I think that would be just awesome. And as far as like a critical reassessment, here's the thing. I think most of the places or the critics that would like Manchester Orchestra certainly do.

I think if and when they come out with a new record, they're positioned to be probably better received because of the popularity of a black mile to the surface. I know that the gold was like you could hear that in Whole Foods. I don't think that there's going to be like a huge 180 on them from people who, you know, don't like them. But what I do think you'll see is that that younger audience that like Phoebe Bridgers, age that like foxing age that like tigers draw age maybe those are the people who are going to start

reviewing Manchester orchestra orchestra albums and like by default they're going to be more positively received in like the hipper indie circles well and and again like this is an example of a band and I think we've talked about this before where it doesn't really matter like what their reviews are like they've proven that they can they can have a big audience and either be ignored by the press or be sort of treated like as sort of, you know, with like, put it at a distance, you know, like, not treated with a ton of respect.

And it doesn't matter. And to me, like, that's always the best thing for a band. Like, if you can just communicate directly with your audience and it doesn't really matter, like what the press says, like, you know, they might write great things about you, they might write bad things or they might ignore you. You know, the press, the music press is so fickle that, like, relying on that, I think, is always, like a recipe for disaster.

And, you know, we could talk about bands that have gotten several, you know, best new musics from, from Pitchfork that, like, can't fill like a 250-person club, you know. And meanwhile, you have a band like Manchester Orchestra, who, you know, didn't get great reviews from places, you know, like the sort of indie tastemakers and they weren't getting, like, the big profiles written about them. And here they are, you know, coming up on 20 years into their career. And, you know, younger artists are covering their songs. They're, you know, they still have like a nice size audience.

You know, they have like a real sort of legacy and connection with a group of people. And, you know, what more could you want if you're a band? Yeah, I think that it's, it's always a good idea to just try to wait out the critical, you know, consensus. Because most music writers, like, they have to give up, you know, doing music writing after so many years. Like, you know, sort of like bands, you know, that we have to, for the most part, like, most writers have to give up and get a real job and they lose interest or they see themselves, like, kind of being phased out, phased out or washed. And, you know, that, like, you can wait out whatever wave of critical consensus is happening. You know, if you have, like, actual, like, real life people who like your music, the arc of history bends towards rewarding the popular, the popular bands. And that's true of pop artists or even like indie bands that have, you know, develop a fan base.

So, you know, I don't understand why people try to do things to make people like us happy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Manchester Orchestra, you won. You do, yeah. You've got Ian to express remorse here for some of the reviews he wrote. So I think that's a win for Manchester Orchestra at this point. It is. So we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation.

corner where Ian and I recommend something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right. So this might be kind of cheating because this is, you know, for all intensive purposes, a friend's band. Now, I just want to preface by saying that I have a lot, like a lot of people I know personally are in bands. And it's, you know, that, that is, that is, I'm actually, like, harder, I think, on people who I know personally that are in bands. Because a lot of them exist in that sort of space where it's like it's not bad like it's not like amateurist where you just like kind of cringe but it's also like not like super awesome it's like in this space where it's like would I would I would I be more critical of it or more accepting of this if I just straight up didn't

know the person but nonetheless I would say a friend of the pod Kegan Bradford he's in a band called Camp Trash. And they are putting out a, like him and I talk pretty, pretty constantly about, like, you know, the latest goings on emo. But, you know, he was in a band that, like, we all were just like kind of joking. Camp Trash isn't a real band. Like, they hadn't put out any music, but they would just get talked about on the internet. But they actually did put out a EP this Friday the 22nd on the resurgent, count your

lucky stars, a label that. put out the first foxing record empire empire i was lonely estate uh joada v just an iconic emo label and they put out their first ep called down timing and um it's just i i don't know if you've ever had this experience where like you listen to a guy that you know in their music for the first time it's like wait this is this is like actual good this is like real good and that was the case with cam trash it was like a pleasant surprise what they do is the four song epi that kind of goes to in a indie cast core combination of like gin blossoms but also motion city soundtrack just real um just like a real straightforward almost oh-so-o-o-ish pop emo sound that has you know some

emo tendencies but not cloying uh it's honestly you could hear it being on alt rock radio in the 90s but also you could hear it playing maybe in fest in 2012 and i mean this is a topic for another time, but I'm starting to hear more bands kind of take that Fest 2011-2013 emo sound and doing it now. I saw someone have jokingly referred to an emo revival revival on the way, which I mean, cool. Like I haven't written the think piece in four years. It'd be nice to feel relevant again. But back to Camp Trash. I mean, if like you like any of the emo-ish-leaning bands that we talk about here on Indycasts. I think you'll find something to like on their new EP.

And moreover, it's like 12 minutes long. So shout to Keegan, shout to all the guys in Camp Trash. Like, I'm not just giving them a shout because I know them personally. Like, this is an actual, you know, this is an actual good band. And I think it's been really cool to see, you know, like Stereogum and NPR kind of agree with, like, hey, like, this, there's still good stuff coming out of from this sound. So I'm going to plug something of my own in this segment, and that is I didn't interview this week with Charles. Is it Bissell or Bissell?

I'm not sure. I don't know either. I don't talk about the people in this band in this band in person a lot. Yeah, I should have asked Charles when I interviewed him. Anyway, Charles from the Rends. And if you listen to this show, you have probably heard us talk about the Rens. They're this band that started in New Jersey in 1989. They've put out three records in the last 32 years.

Their most recent one is the Metallands came out in 2003. I think it's a masterpiece. Great early aughts indie rock record. If you're not familiar with that record, to kind of circle back to a question we answered earlier in this episode, this is a band that's like pretty easy to catch up with in terms of their discography. Like if you want to go back,

definitely start with the Metallands. This is an album that I would say, like, if you haven't heard this record, I'll just say that, like, Arcade Fire cited this as an influence on funeral. You know, like, this is, like, a big sounding anthemic record, great lyrics. And, like, the band is, like, basically just, like, four, like, working guys. Three of them have jobs, and Charles is a stay-at-home dad. So they kind of have, like, a guided by voices, like underdog quality to them as well. And lately, and by lately, I mean, like, the...

last decade plus. They've had this sort of inside indie nerd status joke where people are waiting for the follow-up to the Meadowlands. And the rents have actually been working on this record since 2010. And I actually interviewed Charles back when I worked at Grantland in 2013. Oh gosh. All right. Be Grant. And we talked about this record. And at that time, it sounded like, well, maybe the album was going to come out in 2014. That, of course, didn't happen. So I called up Charles again earlier this week and we talked for an hour about the status of the Wrens album. And I'll let you read the piece because he talks about where the record is at and if it's going to be coming out this year. He actually also let me hear seven songs from the record.

And as long as I didn't say any song titles or be too specific about what they sound like. And I'll just say that I think they're pretty fantastic. Like I thought it sounded great. And like you can tell that a lot of time has been sort of taken to put these songs together because there's a real sort of sophisticated architecture about how songs flow in and out of each other. But it's also, it doesn't sound stale or labored. It's a very immediate sounding record. It sounds like the natural sequel to the Meadowlands.

Like if you love the Meadowlands, based on what I've heard, I think this is going to be a really great record. So hopefully it will see the light of day soon. There's more details in my story. So go to uprocks.com to read that. And yeah, hopefully we'll have a new Wrenz record this year. That is like a Doug M. Hoff-sized flex to say that you've heard seven songs from this Wrenz album. And also like the hour that he spent talking to you could have been an hour he spent

actually putting this record out. So I'm kind of mad. I'm kind of mad this interview exists. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but it had to be done. It had to be done. We're feeding the beast. We're feeding the hype beast, and hopefully we'll get more people into that band. Yes.

Like, people who were born the year the Meadowlands came out, they're going to be able to vote in 2021. Like, that's how long it's been since the last Wren's record. So there's a whole generation of people who have no idea who this band is, and hopefully they will go back and listen to that record especially, because I think if you like this show, I think you will love that album. So that brings us to a close here on this episode of Indycast. Thank you for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie.

And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.