Indiecast - Mailbag: The Doors, Blog Rock, and The State Of Music Journalism

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

As is tradition, this week’s episode of Indiecast has Steve and Ian taking questions from you: the loyal listeners. Questions were fielded from all around the globe, leading this Mailbag episode to revolve around a provocative conversation about topics like the state of music journalism and which medium is best for learning about an artist in 2021, as well as bands that could have been bigger had they come around at a different time, blog rock, and the songs that Steve and Ian have listened to the most over the years.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steve is recommending Liam Kazar, whose latest effort, Due North, is set for release in August. Ian, on the other hand, is taking the opportunity to once again plug South Carolina outfit Adjy, who released The Idyll Opus (I-IV) last week.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we respond to letters sent by you, the IndyCast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? So the people got to know, Steve.

You know, now that you're on the HBO payroll, does that mean we can't talk about billions anymore? Man, this is a good question. You're referring to the fact that I am involved in this upcoming Wittstock 99 documentary that premieres July 23rd on all HBO platforms. That is my plug for that right now. Absolutely not. I don't think that the secession, billions, conflict of interest, I don't think that comes into play at all here. Yeah, because, I mean, if you really talk about it as like an oasis blur thing, I mean, this would be where the rubber

meets the road as far as beef goes. You know, like HBO does not want you talking up billions and hence like that is kind of, you know, the impetus behind this entire thing. Not the fact that you already did a very substantial, you know, survey of Woodstock 99. It's just that we can't have the two most prominent podcasters

in the late 30s, early 40s demographic, talking about billions when Succession Season 3 is, you know, on its way. Well, you know, when I got involved in this movie, it was actually before Indycast started, but I did make it contingent on my involvement in the movie that if I did one day get involved with an indie rock podcast that occasionally talked about financial theme shows, that I would have to maintain my integrity, that I could not be influenced by any personal interest, professional interests that I would have to be allowed impartiality in that regard.

So I'm glad I had the precients to know that ahead of time. So yes, there will be no conflict of interest. I do anticipate secession being weaved into the show somehow when that comes back. Oh, absolutely. I think that you should, I think you should leave Succession. And we are fully stocked as far as pop cultural references that will appeal to our audience for pretty much the rest of 2021. Well, I mean, we haven't even talked about I think you should leave, which came back this week. I don't know if we want to be dropping like sloppy stakes references or this stuff is too fresh right now.

On the one hand, like if we don't do this this week, like we'll be behind the curve. But also, like I just literally watched these two last night. and I just haven't formulated the gags. I think they'll happen. You know, we can't micromanage these jokes. But yeah, sloppy stakes, damn flashes, you know, I see all of these, and I just have Twitter brain because the first, like, I'm watching this, I'm trying to enjoy myself. And already the wheels are turning, like, okay, how can I make this into a sixth wave emo joke?

And like, well, the danger, I think, with the second season of, I think you should leave, is that people are so anxious to reference the show that it might burn out the show too quickly. I mean, the great thing about the first season is that it was a slow burn. So, you know, you could get the jokes in about, you know, like the skeleton band and like, yeah, the bones are their money or the steering wheel. And the steering wheel thing. By the way, still all classics. Like, I think that... Yeah, definitely. You could use those as memes and it still won't be totally corny.

As a matter of fact, I think the timeline has burnt so quickly that it went from, okay, this is a little tired to, okay, yeah, it's sort of like with bands. I think, you know, there's a subject which is very related to this where it's like, okay, it's like huge hype. Then the second time around, it burns out too quickly. and then you give it a little bit of time and it's like, yeah, okay, this is canon. Well, I think if we're going to continue the analogy of a band, I think people were maybe anticipating that the second record by, I think you should leave, would be a letdown. And I haven't watched the whole season yet,

but the episodes I've seen have been really funny. Oh, yeah, they're great. They've delivered a strong sophomore effort with their second season. So, yeah, maybe people were, like, bracing for a backlash, but then they're like, oh, wait, they actually delivered the goods. Yeah. So let's just enjoy this thing. That's good.

And, you know, because I feel like on this show, you know, we took some shots at Bo Burnham. We did. Which people did not like, or some people in our listenership did not like. So, like, let's just embrace this thing that we all like and we all enjoy it. And, you know, let's not worry about it getting burned out. Yeah. Even though I just said I'm worried about it. I'm trying not to worry about it.

At least for now. Like, let's maybe we're, maybe we're. maybe we're in a phase where, you know, past Fourth July, people like are, maybe people are able to enjoy things for like a week. Yeah. Yeah, maybe so. And, you know, it just makes me think about, because you, you had this in our, in our outline that you wanted to talk about something that people don't like to enjoy. Speaking of what people enjoy things.

Because I wrote something about Jim Morrison last week. because it was the 50th anniversary of his death on July 3rd. And I was prompted to write that because of the anniversary, but more so because I feel like the doors, for whatever reason, were in the discourse earlier this year. And it was the predictable thing where people just talking about how much the doors suck. And I think we're on the same page on this.

The thing with the doors is you can look at Jim Morrison and you watch the Oliver Stone film or you read the book, no one here gets out alive. And it's easy to draw the conclusion that this guy was just the buffoon, you know, who did, you drank all the time and he was abusive and, you know, maybe he wasn't the best person. And I'm not going to argue against all that. But, like, that doesn't mean that the doors suck.

The doors have jams, you know. And I think I wanted to make that case. I mean, are you with me on the doors having jams? Okay, I'm very much with you on like the pro-doors front. Like to backtrack, like, do I listen to the doors with regularity? Not really, like, not at all. Like, the doors, I had a very, I had a very deep doors phase in the summer of 1997. I was 17 years old.

I was on a teen tour in Israel. And like, the doors were some of the most profound music I had ever heard up to that point. Now, mind you, I was all, that was the summer that okay. a computer came out and like it was right around the time that wutang forever came out as well with the enhanced cd so i was very much in a position to be blown away by these all-consuming philosophical treatises on like uh art you know like this like i think it's a right of passage to go through the doors now can you get into the doors when you're like 35 probably not but then again i think that i i can't imagine someone who's 35 years old getting into the smiths for the first time

either. I mean, I think you can. I think it's, because I know for me personally, like, when I was a kid, I went through a phase that you're talking about where I thought the doors were great. And then I went through a long period where I thought the door sucked. And then it was like maybe in my mid-30s where I started reconsidering them and being like, no, actually, they're pretty good. And like the ridiculousness of the doors is, I think, part of what makes them lovable to me. Oh, absolutely. That's the thing. It's like, well, even if you like,

take the academic approach where, you know, Jim Morrison, huge influence on Ig-pop, huge influence on Ian Curtis, like the basis of a lot of post-punk. The ridiculousness is kind of the entire point of the doors. You can appreciate, you know, the pop songs like Break on Through or Hello, I Love You, but also, you know, not to touch the earth or unknown soldier. I got really into waiting for the sun and strange days and just like the really weird albums or the soft parade. Like I love mid-period doors where like they kind of get objectively bad. But it's bad in a way that's like interesting because like I think with a lot of 60s, 70s, like 70s bands that there's so much baggage as far as like this is like where, you know, music began or whatever.

like Beatles, there isn't a lot of soft spots in their catalog, like Led Zeppelin, not like, you know, it's pretty much like towards the end only. But the doors have just like a really interesting trajectory where they, you know, the first two albums are pretty much perfect. They get weird and kind of silly. And then towards the end, they retrench to more of like a heart, like a blues based sort of band, which I imagine like this would have been similar to like Stone Temple pilots. It's like, you know, how people talk about them these days. Like, actually, they kind of came around towards the end. They really started to develop themselves. And I think also Scott Weiland is a guy who, you know, unfortunately bears a lot of similarities to Jim Morrison.

But, yeah, the doors suck is like kind of a bet. Like, when someone offers that opinion outright to me, that's, like, I love some hater-ass opinions. Like, don't get me wrong. But, like, the doors suck is right up there with the lamest ones. along with like ska sucks or new metal invariably sucks, you know, connect to what's not 99. You feel like it's a knee-jerk thing that you don't really have to defend because it's a fashionable opinion that people with quote-unquote good taste share. So if you say the door suck, it's not like saying the Beatles suck because you're instantly going to have a fight with people and you're

going to have to defend it. But you can say the door suck without really give them a chance and like people will just go along with it. I will say, and you touched on this before, it is the academic argument to say like the doors were influential on so much post-punk music and just punk music in general. But like they really are, I think even now, a band that like in terms of 60s bands, I feel like they're actually more present than like a lot of other bands of their generation. Absolutely.

In my piece, I made the argument that really like any band where, It's kind of like a droney-sounding band and you have a person talking over it. In some ways, connected to the doors. Like, I, maybe this is too much of a stretch, but, like, in my piece, I made the connection to, like, the dry cleaning record where there's not much sonic similarity at all, but, like, the idea of, like, an iconoclastic, you know, poet lead singer talking over a band that is, in some ways, like, in a different, like, universe from, like, what the singer is doing. I think that you could trace that back to the doors in some way. Like there's like a lot of music that people enjoy where maybe they hate the doors, but like they're enjoying things that were in some way influenced by that. I really think that they have like a foundational, you know, importance in rock music that continues even now.

I just want to point out what you did there. And like, this is the essence of indie cast where not only did, like, you connected them to dry cleaning, which, you know, is a feat within itself. But I'm thinking to myself, holy shit. Did, like, Steve just met, like, talk about the doors being as, like, the genesis of, like, Laudisput and Touche Amore and so forth. Like, all that, like, talk emo stuff that happened in, like, the 2010s. Like, does this all link back to Jim Morrison? what a great case to be made for this band. This is why HBO pays you the big bucks,

because you somehow managed to connect like the talky post-hardcore emo with British post-punk and one of the least defensible bands from the 60s. I think the case. I think we can end the episode here. After 15 minutes, we've just completely restructured the time space continuum of music criticism. I think Uprocks is canceling our Zoom call right now because we've just finally gone too far. We've gone power mad. Like Jim Morrison in 1970.

Exactly. I'm just sitting in a darkened room slugging, you know, taking slugs from a bottle of Jack with my Jim Morrison beer. Yeah. Also, like the last thing I had to say is the doors are responsible for like one of my favorite line readings in cinematic history. It's from the ridiculous Oliver Stone movie where Jim Morrison is on the beach with Ray Manzarek and he's reading off like a sheet of paper the lyrics that eventually became Moonlight Drive

and Ray Manzarek just kind of looks and it's like, it's a great fucking lyrics man. That whole scene is amazing. Excellent. Like that, unfortunately I can't find that on YouTube, but one of these days I'm just going to like, I don't know, do it myself. Like just get the VHS.

going, like record it, put it on YouTube. So I can just use that as a reaction shot for like five times a day. There's, like that is, like that is my preeminent in search of YouTube clip. If you're Indycats listener who's handy with technology, please put that clip on YouTube. And maybe you'll get in the mailbag. I also think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Doors movie is the first movie to have a scene where people are doing heroin. to the Velvet Underground song, Heroin, which has been done a few times. It's like in that movie, killing me softly or killing them softly, the Brad Pitt,

James Gandalfini movie. There's a scene like where someone does heroin while heroin by Velvet Underground plays on the soundtrack. But I think Oliver Stone did it first. You know, just the great obvious needle drop. I wonder if there's any movies where people do cocaine to the song Cocaine. Or, you know what I mean? I love that.

What you got to do is use your connections at HBO to find that out, you know? Maybe so. Maybe so. I just love the idea of directors being like, okay, people doing this specific drug. What song can we use as an accompaniment for this? How about a song where the drug is actually in the title? That's amazing. Should we get to our mailbag?

We should get to our mailbag before we go completely off the rails and get American prayer in this, man. Oh, man. Yeah, we'll save America prayer for another episode. We got to put a ban on any future doors references because it's very clear that like this stuff has been like just gestating in our souls for like the past 30 years. I mean, I can't believe we just spent 10 minutes talking about the doors. I can. What's not to believe? On this indie cast, on this indie rock podcast. But yeah, exactly.

I could go another three hours on the doors. But let's get to our mailbag. And of course, this episode, it's all mailbag. All mailbag. Which is always fun to do. We get a lot of letters from our listeners, and they're all great, and we can't always answer all of them. So it's nice to do an episode where we just answer letters

because we want to give it up for the people out there who decide to write in. We really appreciate them. So let's get into it. Our first letter is from... It says Grandma Sophia is the writer. And apparently, I looked this up because I didn't really understand. understand what this was. And apparently this is a pop culture blogger. It is. Are you familiar with Grandma Sophia? And now I am because I looked it up and the first

thing I see, it's like dead center. The first article is Charles Bronson and the powers of reinvention. Like this is really speaking to us. Absolutely. So we're giving you some free pub here Grandma Sophia. So thank you for writing. Also, the other thing I see on its immediate right is about the goalie's anxiety at the penalty kick. So, oh, damn. Yeah. This is, this is, one this one's getting bookmarked. Oh, is there any, like, any stories like on Muse's the Second Law on there, or maybe that's to come? Yeah, I don't know.

We'll see about this game of cat and mouse. And we'll see. Actually, yeah, don't, Grandma Sophia, if you're listening, don't cover the second law. That's our beat. We don't want us to get over-exposed. This has got to be our bit only here on ADECAS. This is the letter from Grandma Sophia. I wanted to ask who you gentlemen think are doing the best.

artist interviews profiles in 2021, in which medium is best for learning about an artist these days? I could see the answer differing for a new artist versus an established artist. There are a lot of smaller blogs, newsletters, podcasts, and YouTube pages doing great short and long-form interviews with newer acts. However, absolutely nobody reads, watches, or listens to those interviews, except for other writers and talkers preparing to interview those exact same artists. most quasi-corporate media interviews, video and written, seem to be either a saunter through pre-established talking points or artists interviewing other artists in a way that amounts to both parties going

damn exactly over and over again. I find the only interviews where I really learn anything about an artist these days are when the artist is brand new and they don't know better than to spill the beans. And he goes on, he or she, I don't know if this is what the gender is here, but they go on to list profiles of Ogbert the nerd. Which they did themselves, so that's a really good, yeah, we got to mention that one. There's an Olivia Rodrigo, hot ones interview? Is that like the hot wings?

I think that, yeah, that's the one with hot sauce, I believe. And then there's a dogleg interview that is also about Smash Brothers. About Smash Brothers. Yeah. So, yada, yada, yada. Their words not ours. Their words, not ours. Who do you think is doing the best interviews in 2021,

in which platform is most conducive for the highest quality interview these days? Thanks, fellas, love the pod. Grandma Sophia. So, I think the best interviewers... Yeah, Ian Cohn and Stephen Hayden, next fucking question. Yes, exactly. I have some thoughts on this. I'm curious, like, for you, if you prefer talking to...

uh like like this person was saying that they like interviews like with people who are really green you know people young in the game who don't really know any better like who haven't been media who haven't been undergoing media training yet which by the way that is the thing and people talk it's not like a secret like media training is a thing and it's uh and you know in fairness I understand why that oh yeah you absolutely have to do that in this day and age especially if you say something in an interview you get like you know 20 websites who aggregate it and they pull out the quote and they're often not doing very charitable readings of what people are saying. So it can be very embarrassing. It can derail your album cycle

if you say the wrong thing. Or in the case of like say St. Vincent or Alana Del Rey like put it into overdrive. But you know to this person's point when they say the only people who read these interviews are like other writers and people who are trying to do subsequent interviews. Like that's pretty much the totality of all forms of music writing. Like, I think we have to be very aware that most of this stuff is just, like, inside baseball. But as far as, like, inter... Okay, like, as far as, like, why do these artist profiles in the first place, like, they serve a few purposes for me.

Like, if you see me doing an artist profile, um, A, it's usually because, like, I like the band a lot. And also, because I just don't feel... like rolling the boulder up the hill for the album review. Like I think with the artist profile, you can talk about the album and not be kind of stuck in the, here's where they were on their last album. Here's what this does well. Here's what it doesn't do well.

Or, you know, like I'm interviewing Foxing for their new album cycle rather than reviewing it because it's just like, you know what? I'm not going to put myself out there to say to not put forth like I like this album as much as I do because of the limitations of the. review structure. But anyway, yeah, as far as like interviewing super green people, that can be a lot of fun because, um, depending, like, for example, like stereo gum, like when I interview bands for a band to watch, like, odds are that is by far the biggest, like, publication they've been, been interviewed for yet. And they are just super pumped to talk. And, you know, they're, they're not jaded.

They've, like, they, when they say, hey, that's a good question. They actually mean it, rather than like stalling for time. But also you have the case where it's like, wow, these people could use some media training because they just haven't had a lot of things happen to them yet. Or they're shy. I mean, because it can go the opposite way from what you're saying. Sometimes people are really psyched and it's almost like they're this damn ready to burst. And it's like, oh, finally someone's asking me about my record and they're going to go off forever.

But just as often I find that artists clam up and they don't say anything. And it could be really difficult talking to someone who hasn't really done a lot of interviews before. I have to say that for me, I don't know how you feel about this. I'd say by far, the best interviews are with artists that have been around for like 30 years. Absolutely. Like, this is, we are in very strong agreement about this. Because, like, I've been doing this thing lately where I interview an artist and I have them just talk about every album that they've put out, including the new album that they're promoting.

And I find that you talk to someone who, maybe it's like 10 or 15 years past a certain record, they're now going to tell you if they think that album's bad. Or if they didn't like the producer, or if they feel like the guitar player wasn't as engaged as you should have been. Like, you're going to get all those stories because you're outside of the album cycle. They're not trying to sell anything anymore.

They're just going to speak their mind. And there's also not as much danger to them to get aggregated. As a matter of fact, they probably want that. Because if you're in your late 40s or 50s, it's harder to get coverage. So if you say something interesting in an interview, it's good. So, like, I've done interviews with Jacob Dillon recently, like, where he was very candid about his albums. I remember Chino Moreno from Deftones, like, was super candid about albums that were even kind of recent. in their catalog, like their 2016 record gore and talking about how I can't, like the guitar player

in the band. Throwing Steph under the bus. That is a deaf tones right of passage. Yeah, he was basically like, yeah, he, Chino's just like, yeah, I don't think he was into this record. I don't think he was really engaged. Yeah. And like, you're not going to get that from a 22-year-old musician who's putting out their

first record. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I, the, the not, I don't want to say like over the hill or whatever. like, you know, past their prime alt rock artists, like hands down the best interviews I've done. And it doesn't even need to be someone famous. Like Richard Patrick from Filter or like Art from Everclear, local age. Like these ones are great, A, because they have actual stories from a time when the music industry had money.

So they would get themselves in like really interesting situations just from the nature of like being around a lot of rich and famous people. Billy Corgan, I interviewed him in 2017. He was mostly mocking me throughout the entire interview, but nonetheless, that was so much, like, I'm like there in my actual real life office, like, talking to one of my idols, and this guy is just like kind of making a mockery of my questions. Like, this is the best interview I've ever done. It kind of gets to why, like, Eve 6 and Richard Marks are so beloved, you know, on Twitter. It's because, like, if you're, like, past the point where you kind of

stop caring about what people think about you or I mean maybe you really really care and you just have no self-awareness. If you can like laugh at yourself, uh, that people eat that stuff up, you know, like I think people kind of inherently realize the 90s and the 80s were a ridiculous time and it's like that, you know, if you can look back on it and tell a few good stories, like, man, what were we thinking with that video? Um, like that is your road to having a productive second career as a Twitter celebrity. So, yeah, yeah. And, I think I mean the biggest thing

on social media is authenticity like do people think you're genuine yes and that is a path to appearing genuine that you can look at yourself

honestly and not padded in like all the PR stuff that a lot of public figures do like whenever they talk about themselves so and I want to say too that like I don't know how you feel about this

I'm at the point now where I prefer Q&As I think to artist profiles. Oh, absolutely. Unless you're actually in a situation where you're spending substantial time with the subject.

Which you're not. People aren't doing that anyways. Like I saw a very sharp decrease in first paragraphs that mentioned like what the artist is eating. Right. Even before cliche. Yeah. But it's like you you have to do that because you only get an hour with this person.

If you're lucky. If you're lucky. So everything that they do, you have to, like, freight with all the significance. Like, they ordered the Cobb salad, which to me suggests that they are approaching a more austere perspective on their life. They tentatively picked at the blue cheese, similar to how they ate around the edges of their new album. You get into that sort of thing. And, like, the problem is, like, no one ever seems to have fun with that cliche. Like, and also, like, when we point out, like, the whole point of.

of artists interviews in the first place, which is to give you a little bit of insight as to what this person's like outside of their album. Twitter's kind of made that redundant. I can't think of too many times where I come out of an interview thinking, oh yeah, this person's like way different than they are on, say, Twitter. Or if they're not on Twitter, maybe I kind of want to sustain the good view I have of them. Yeah, I mean, I think at best in an interview, you're asking questions that a fan would want to ask that no one else has asked them. And that's why I feel like

if you talk about albums, for instance, and there's an album that you suspect the band doesn't like, just ask them, like, do you like this album or not? And then they can actually give an honest answer. You know, to me, like, that is where these interviews would come up the best.

If you're reading it and you're thinking, like, yes, I would have wanted to know the answer to that. I think that's what you aspire to. So, yeah, I mean, I think they still have value but yeah, just interview old people. I think old people are where it's at. They're dying to talk to you. I want to interview Olivia Rodrigo in 20 years.

I want to interview her about this period of her life right now. She's in her 40s. Who you really want to interview is not Olivia Rodrigo in 20 years, but whoever is like the C-list version of Olivia Rodriguez right now. Like the pop-pom-girls? Like a pom-com girls interview? No, I'm talking about like a pop artist. Like whoever is like what local H was to Nirvana, like whoever that is to Olivia Rodriguez.

In 20 years, they're going to have some good stories. So yes. So let's move on to our next question here. This comes from Nate and Austin. All right. Thank you, Nate, for writing in. He says long time, first time. Ah.

As in not just listen to the pod, but reading both of you for a while. Well, thank you very much. I think Ian had a brief drive-by mention of Tai Seagal on a recent episode, which reminded me of how much I like the guy, but I can't understand why he hasn't been bigger beyond maybe oversaturating the market in his corner of Indy Rock. I feel the same way about bands like Ted Leo and The Pharmacists. They recently enjoyed a small anniversary media cycle for Tyranny of Dismus, but it shocks me how many seemingly okay-versed music fans never had a Ted Leo phase.

I never had a Ted Leo face. Folk confession there. All right. So basically, he's wondering basically if Ty Segal would have been bigger if he had come out at a different time other than now. Are there any indie cast core artists that come immediately to mind as candidates for this thought experiment? That's Nate from Austin. So he's wondering about Ty Segal specifically. Yeah.

And then if there's any other artists that we feel like, they'd come out a different time, they'd be more popular. I have definite feelings about this Ty Seagall question. But I'm curious, like, what you think. Yeah, I mean, I think the question in general talks about, like, how with some athletes, you could tell, like, oh, this person would have dominated the 70s or this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, uh, basketball player in the 80s would be incredible now. He was just ahead of his time or whatever. And, you know, with Ty Segal, like what Nate from Austin, and by the way, like, asking about, like, Ty Segal.

and Ted Leo. Like, I can already picture Nate in my mind. Like, this guy is, like, quintessential indie cast listener. Did you, uh, did you ever have a Ted Leo phase, by the way? Here's the, I kind of listened to him a little bit in 2002 or three.

And I, I revisit a tier and this is, I'm like, hey, this is pretty good. And then I listened to, like, you know, the next album, pretty good. And then after that, it's like, oh, right, I remember. He kind of, like, diminishing returns.

But, you know, he had a good run for a while. Yeah, I've dabbled in his albums. Yeah, he's good. I thought he was, like, solid, but I actually, I don't get, I know there's people there. It's just like a less, a kind of a more self-serious version of Jeff Rosenstock, and I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's like. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a good comparison. Yeah, similar sort of things.

But with Tysagall, it's like, Nate asks if, like, he, you know, this guy should have been in the 70s and, like, he would have been huge. And, like, the question, the thing about that is, like, Ty Saga. or an artist that would have taken his place in the 2010. Like, this guy does not exist without a history of rock music to draw upon. And it's like, when I think about, you know, similar sort of comparisons, like, oh, my God, like, this person's, like, should have, this guy would have killed in the 60s. It's like, I think Ty Seagall probably would have gotten dwarfed by people in the 70s psych rock world.

It's like, nowadays, he's competing with more or less like nobody or people who are on the formerly known as Burger Records. label, but like... Or like the OCs, I think, would be the other Big Doug, and who I actually think are probably bigger than him now. Ooh, that's a good question, but I would say... Like, as a live attraction, I think... Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Like, the OCs, I think they played Red Rocks recently. Wow. Yeah. Maybe not the level of King Gizzard, but... So, the reason I think, like, ties to the Gaul is, like, perfectly positioned for now is because there really isn't a lot of competition. And when you look at his prime, like, at least... as a figure of the indie rock discussion between 2010 and 2014.

I think that is like the last period of time where this guy could be like an indie a-lister because at the beginning you had like shitgays and psych punk like early Kurt Vile, Jay Retar, early waves and like maybe like when he released that album in 2014, I forget what it's called, it's red, he's on the cover. It's like I can't believe I can't remember a Ty Segal album title. like wow um but you know it's like the men were big at that time cloud nothings um like 2010 2014 like that is just when it was you know still kind of all right to be an apolitical just straight up rock act and and i mean can i say like i feel like ty seagal i mean i don't know this

i guess i i'd like to ask him this but my feeling about him is that he probably is as popular as he wants to be oh yeah i don't get i don't get the sense from him that he's trying to, you know, make a leap to arenas or something. Like, you don't put out, like, three records a year, making the kind of music that he does with that goal in mind. I mean, he's a guy who, again, I'm going to use the music venue standard as a way to measure someone's popularity. But, like, here in Minneapolis, like, he plays First Avenue,

which is, like, about a, I think that's, like, 15 to 1,800 people. and I would imagine that he does that in most markets. In L.A., he probably plays a bigger market. Oh, L.A., he's much, much, much. Like, Southern California is, like, that is his territory. Like, that or the bay. But to play a venue, like, First Avenue in the middle of the country, I think, speaks to him being more popular than, like, a majority of indie rock people that

talk about, a majority of even indie rock people that get a lot of press. You know, like, he, so he's doing fine, I think, as he is. I guess I wonder what's the expectation that if you think he should be bigger, I mean, what would cause you to think that? I can't really think of an era that he would be bigger than he is now. If he existed five years earlier, like maybe, like, I don't think there would have been a wave of bands that would have carried him over. And if he started right now would be much more of a niche thing. But another band that Nate brought up, and if you'll allow me,

to go off on this a bit. He mentioned Motion City soundtrack, which is, like, he mentioned Motion City Soundtrack as a band that maybe kind of missed their wave. Can I tell a little story here? A Motion City soundtrack story? I can't wait.

Yeah, no. Like, when you say Motion City soundtrack, I think of, like, a very formative experience of 2014. So this ties a lot of threads. But, you know, as much as we mock emo Night, LA on this podcast. When they've asked me to, like, DJ, they've been nothing but nice to me.

And the last time I DJed there, they had myself, Jesse from Motion City soundtrack and Dallas from Deza Paracitos and the critically maligned statistics to DJ. And, like, they had us play this kind of like old man rock and fun zone part, like on the outside where we could play like Promise Ring and mineral songs while, you know, inside the Echo Plex, Tom DeLong is up on stage playing gym class heroes on an iPod. But, you know, to what he's talking about, like, with Motor City soundtrack, Jesse was like, you know, we were just talking about, like, emo and indie rock and so forth. And when Motion City soundtrack first getting started, he's like, yeah, we were like opening for

bands like Riloh Kylie and, you know, in other words, indie rock bands. And then 2005, they get swept up in Epitaph, the Warb Tour, everything is all right, comes out. and he talks kind of wistfully about how they weren't able to ever be the band that they thought they were. Like, they see themselves as like a new pornographers-esque power pop band. But like for, you know, the rest of their career, they're like pop punk warped tour. And, you know, to me, like that kind of, like, whenever I think about, like, have I really overstated the emo indie divide? And sometimes it's a little embarrassing to read stuff I wrote at that time. but it's like I talked to so many bands who were like kind of emo but sort of indie from that era

who feel like they just got like a raw deal. Even though they're like so much more popular back then than they would be now. Like if Motion City soundtrack came out now, like they might be Oso Oso, like getting that like scraping the bottom of the best new music sort of like sort of reviews. But also if Oso Oso came out in 2005, if like they switch places. Oso Oso could be like not like the shins big, but maybe that's sort of like, hey, they're popular with the O.C. And the Warp Tour. Like they might be like kind of a secondary shin. So. And that's the thing.

But there are another band though that you could say similar to Tysagal that like they don't exist without the reference points of those bands being in 2005. I think part of their appeal was that they were a throwback to that O.C. era. Yeah. So, like, if they were in the O.C. era, and they actually had to compete with, like, with Death Cat for Cutie and all the other big bands from that era, I don't, like, would they have been as big as those bands? I don't know. I mean, the same thing with Ty Segal. Like, if Ty Segal actually had to put out records at the same time as Jimmy Hendricks and, you know, Blue Cheer and, you know, acts like that, like, would people care about him or would they just be, like, well, he's, like, a secondary or third-tier person compared to those giants. Yeah, but I also think that, like, you know, a band like Oso Oso could really use, like, a venue like VOC or like MTV. It's like, I think that bands from that, if we're talking about like 2005, it's just having the same monocultural venues. So I don't know. Like Seth Cohen, Seth Cohen, like, blasting basking in the afterglow and then like they just become this huge band. Yeah.

Like the next day. I mean, it's crazy like how well that worked. Yeah, it's incredible. And or like Chuck Klosterman having his book on that show and then it goes on to sell like a million copies or whatever after that, which is pretty crazy. Great moments in Cohen taste making. Exactly. Why can't people on TV shows be reading like music criticism books now? I mean, that never happens anymore.

That's why we're all in this niche that we're in 2021. So our last question here, it's actually a good transition from the motion city. soundtrack segue that you just want to, which by the way, I, you know, I kind of skipped over some parts of the previous letter. I think I skipped over the part about Motion City soundtrack where the guy was talking about that. So hopefully that made sense to people that you were talking about that. Because he also referenced Motion City soundtrack as a band that was out of time a little bit. So anyway, that's... And also, they're doing a tour behind their classic 2005 album, commit this to memory. You can bet your ass I'm going to be there.

Oh man. Well, that will be exciting. We'll have to hear a scene report from that tour when that goes down. This question comes from Sean in Seattle, which is a great Indycast listener tag there. I love that. It says, hi, Indycast. I'm a big fan. I'm originally from Columbus, Ohio. If I need to burnish my Midwest credentials. Thank you very much. but it's good to have someone from the upper, I guess the Pacific Northwest. So I appreciate having that. Between an album by Islands that came and went recently and the just like heaven announcement

coming with an overwhelming amount of mockery on music critic Twitter, I've been thinking about how the block rock era gets none of the nostalgic cred of the Meet Me in the bathroom scene and why that might be. Do you think it's because blog rock by nature was driven by people outside the establishment or did bands like Wolf Parade and Islands

just get away from a critics' won? wanted, or did the commercial wave that followed with bands like Cold War Kids and the black kids just sour the pool entirely? Or am I just out of step with what most people's preferences are on this? Love the show, Sean and Seattle. Again, another reference to the Just Like Heaven music writer critic discourse. Goldmine for Indycast. Which we didn't bring up in the Indycasties? I think that was a major snub.

We talked about it a bit, like, as far, I think that... Was it a nominee, though? Was it one of the ones? No, no, no. This was part of the... It was just in banter. It hadn't been upgraded to, you know, a headliner status. It should have been a nominee.

That was a snub for the Indycasties. I can't wait until this thing actually happens, because, like, it's in Pasadena. I'm going to be there. I feel like, you know, because a couple people have said, like, oh, like, people are just crapping on this festival. My read on that whole thing was that people were basically being self-deprecating, talking about how, oh, this music that was popular in my 20s, now it's being packaged together in what appears to be sort of like a nostalgia festival.

And this is a sign that I am now old. Like that to me was the basis of most of the jokes about that. Most but not all. Okay, maybe some people were taking shots at the band, but I feel like for the most part, it was people just making fun of themselves. or, you know, feeling depressed about being decrepit old codgers now. Yeah.

But it is worth noting that, like, that festival is playing the Rose Bowl, right? Yeah, or like it's, there's, like, a fairgrounds within the Rose Bowl that I saw the Cures Festival, which I don't think was called just like Kevin. It was called. It was called. Oh, man. How does Robert Smith feel about that? Because that should be his thing.

I'm sure. Like Robert Smith, I can't even imagine how rich that guy is. Like, I don't think he really cares. He deserves it. Yeah. He deserves every penny. Yeah, but like Pasadena Daydream, that was the Cure, Pixies, Deaftones. That was a good day for me.

So, I mean, is it fair to say that this festival is going to draw tens of thousands of people? It got sold out. Like, when he did it in 2019, like, the first weekend sold out so quickly that they had to add a second weekend. as if it were Coachella. I have little to no doubt that this thing is going to do numbers. Like what's the capacity? Oh, I have no. Well, it's an outdoor festival.

So last time they had it in Long Beach at the Queen Mary, which is funny because that's also sort of kind of a wolf parade reference. But yeah, I have little to no doubt this thing is going to draw, you know, it's going to sell out in some way. Are we talking like 20,000? I have absolutely no. I have absolutely no. frame of reference.

But probably pretty big. I'm going to push back on the premise of this question because I feel like... Take that, Sean, from Seattle. Well, no, I mean, you know, I don't... I feel like there actually is quite a bit of love for that era. And, you know, it's easy to take shots at the Johnny Come Lately bands of that time. If you want to do that, like, I would. wouldn't do that, but I think people that want to

blind that era can, you know, think of any number of bands that have really long band names and, you know, blocking spiels and explanation. Blocking spills and like a dozen people in the band. But there's also a lot of bands that were really successful, and they still are successful, that came out of that era,

whether we're talking about Arcade Fire or Bonny Vair or the Shins or, you know, bands that I think people probably actually did read about for the first time on blogs back then, that are part of that era, we don't really associate them with it because they transcended the era.

But even like the one-hit wonder bands, I feel like if you made a playlist of those bands and you played it at a party, like people of a certain age would be freaking out and be really excited about it. They'd be ripping it up to that music. Even now, there's a nostalgia value there, obviously. But I think that, you know,

that was a good era for, indie bands putting out like really good singles. Like maybe they just had one good single, but it was a, it was a banger. And sometimes like, there's really good indie artists now who are critically acclaimed, but they don't have that one banger.

Yeah. You know, that like, uh, you know, she wants revenge had, you know, whoever you want to say. She wants revenge had no bangers. And actually,

she won't, I'll defend some of their side. They actually played the first just like heaven. My favorite bands on the lineup from 2019 were She Wants Revenge and Louis the 14th. Oh, yeah. Bands where it's like, yeah, okay, we don't have Interpol money yet to book certain bands,

but why don't we kick the tires on She Wants Revenge? Like, maybe we can get them. Am I wrong? I mean, I guess I don't feel like this era's maligned. It doesn't, I mean, Sean and Seattle is right in the sense that like the Meet Me in the bathroom era is more glamorous, maybe. It has like a sex appeal that that's. this era doesn't have. It has like a rock star appeal. But I don't know. If you were to make a

playlist of blog rock versus like the return of rock early aught stuff, it could go toe to toe, I think. You could do both. I mean like a couple of my fellow Twitter people like Keegan Bradford and Ariel Gordon, we did an emo, we did a Zoom Emo night last year and we consider doing one for blog rock as well. We just never kind of got around to it. But, okay. Like, the first thing I got to address with Sean from Seattle is that Emma, he asked, Am I or am I just at a step with most people's preferences on this? If you're doing an indie cast mailbag with all of, I got to say, if you're asking that question yourself, the answer is probably yes.

That's kind of the point of our show. But, you know, as far as like why people don't have the same sort of nostalgia for this, or as they do for Meet Me in the bathroom, like the strokes were rock stars. like Interpol were rock stars. Like, whatever the equivalent of this book would be, like, I don't know, meet me at the Pitchfork Festival Port-a-Potty. Like, have you talked to the guys from him, clap your hand, say, yeah, or like Wolf Parade? It's like, you know, they were just like some guys who, you know, happened to be in bands.

But, like, but, like, Winn Butler would be in that book, though. Yeah, Richard Butler isn't, like, when Butler wasn't hanging out with, like, you know, Drew Barrymore and. Right. Yeah, it's just like. It's not as cool as, like, Julian Casablanca's. Who the fuck is? But, like, all five guys from the strokes were, like, cooler than, like, every other band that would come later.

But, you know, as far as, like, asking if, like, the establishment retrenched against, like, bloggers, people outside of the establishment. I mean, I think the fact is that people, like, just, I think people weren't into the fact that all it took was, like, a blog to elevate a certain band from like nothing to all of a sudden, you know, whatever indie fame is. And like, it's funny because this was at the time seen as like a more honest means of star making, you know, it's like, well, these blogs, like they aren't under any sort of, you know, corporate oversight. But so many of these bands, like they, you could levy the same accusations against them as you could with like, you know, Flash in the Pan pop acts, which is that, like they sucked live.

Like most of these bands were just fucking terrible live. Largely because they had to get like boosted from playing nothing to having to play whatever like First Avenue or what's that venue called in Minneapolis? The 7th Street entry. The 7th Street entry. Yeah. Just, you know, they weren't ready for that. And I think with this.

And also like most of these bands were just like goofy looking white dudes. And there's just a real. like people are like really not nostalgic for that aspect of it that being said Steve is right in that if you get like a Nuggets like compilation for blog rock like a two seat like it would yeah it would still have to be CD 2005 was still or you put it on like an iPod touch or something like that exactly I was gonna say it needs to be like downloaded songs off of uh... with like mislabel MP3s like that would that would do serious numbers. But, you know, also, like, the bands that are playing just like heaven,

like, these are bands that have, like, actual careers. Like, you could, you could say the islands never really topped return to the sea, but, you know, they had a career after that. Well, parade never, never came close to touching Apologies to the Queen Mary, but they had a career. It's... And they still have that record that people love and if they just want to play that record, uh, I mean, that record, I mean, most bands don't have a record like that. That, you God, that is like the perfect indie rock album in my eyes. Like that is like if you put like if you ask me like what do I want out of like indie rock, like apology to the Queen Mary is just one of the genuine articles.

It delivers. Yeah. And the funny thing about that record is that I, when I think about like what band's sound like Wolf Parade, when you think about like people like Sean or Nate or our mailbag list readers who ask like, where are the wolf parades nowadays? It's like, man, to me, the bands that sound like that are bands that like you would call emo nowadays. Yeah, well, I just want to push back again, against something about the nostalgic thing that

people not feel nostalgic for this era. I mean, maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but, like, I'm definitely, I definitely have warm feelings about that era of the internet. And, you know, you were talking about how there was some resentment at the time about this idea that like one blog post could elevate a band from obscurity to semi-indy stardom, I kind of miss that. I like the idea of, you know, and I know that blogs were not pure. I know that there was like some shady things going on with some of the big blogs.

But like, I still like the idea of like a blog run by a person who just listens a lot of music and they like this record and they talk it up. And because of their enthusiasm, that is what elevates this band. I just like the idea of like the, I guess the breadth of the internet at that time, that there were so many different places and it didn't feel quite as homogenized as it does now. Even if a fair number of the stuff that was boosted by the blogs ended up maybe being not that great or not that enduring,

it was still kind of like a fun, exciting time in that regard. I think there's a common thread in a lot of our mailbag questions, about like, man, like I just missed the days when like music writing sort of mattered more. And I think when I look back on that era, that's what stands out to me. It's like, it felt like there was actual stakes. Or like, or that it was like a, it was a person. It wasn't like an institutional voice, you know, which, and I think even like the big music publications or the indie music publications had more of an individual voice that you could say like, okay, even if I don't like this voice. I understand that there's a sensibility behind this that is very specific and it's

not, it hasn't been workshopped, you know, as much as maybe things are now. So it's less professional, but it's also more distinctive. And I think that's been the evolution. And again, like, I don't want to romanticize this too much. There was a lot of corny things that happened then. But they were our corny things. Like, you know, like 12, 15 years from now, whoever's like 25 now, they're going to look back on this era with a similar sort of fondness. Like, even if it seems like way more self-serious and earnest nowadays, like, there's going to be a ridiculousness to this era when you look back on it in time.

Yeah, because it'll be even more self-serious in the future. We'll be even, we'll even have less of a sense of humor 10 years from now. So this will look like a big party in 2021. All right, well, that does it for our mailbag. We actually didn't get to all the letters that we wanted to talk about today. We never do. There's one letter that I think we'll probably just hold for next week. So thank you all for listening.

I hope you enjoyed this mailbag. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I recommend something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so this one you probably see me talk about on Twitter. It's a band called Agi. I don't know how this band's names pronounce. I can't find it anywhere because they're not on social media.

Nonetheless, they are a band from North Carolina, who I had seen open up for Foxing, I think, back in 2015. They're on Triple Crown Records. Back in the day, they remind me kind of like if we're going to talk about blog rock, like annuals or Anathalo. Like, I'm really bringing out the fine china for this comparison. But also kind of like expansive in a way. that reminds me of like, you know, Sufyan or Swans, they kind of disappeared for a while. And they came back a few weeks ago on June 30th

because a lot of the songs in this record are where June meets July. And also the seven, when the cicadas came back, it's called the idle ID-I-L-L-L, not idle, like, you know, pray to God. I, like, idyllic. The idle opus, parentheses, one through, It is a 100-minute concept narrative record about two artists who meet each other on the way, I think, to the Cornerstone Festival, if I'm reading between the lines here. And here's just a sample of some of the song titles, where June meets July, colon, five, period,

maps to the soon of the great Midwestern summer jig. That's one of the songs. Basically, if you like a 2005 heavily orchestrated blog rock and also like young adult fiction, but also like really expansive Godspeed, you black emperor post rock. I don't even know what I think about this album right now, but I just love the fact that it exists. No publicity. Just thrown out into the world. And also on their band bio, they spell my name wrong.

even know why they mentioned me. They spell my name with two ends. Yeah, they just have very, very straight. That seems deliberate. They might be having some fun with you. Yeah, I think so. But like, if you like any of the bands I mentioned, like, you know, blog rock, also kind of tooth-and-nail Christian rock, but also post-rock, you're going to find something to like here. This thing is just, I just love the energy of this thing and its existence. So, so I want to to talk up a record that is coming out next month. The album's called Due North. It comes out August 6th.

It's by a singer-songwriter named Liam Kazar. And you might know his name if you've seen Jeff Tweedy solo band or Steve Guns band. Liam has played in both of those groups. He's currently based in Kansas City, although he was raised in Chicago, which I'm sure explains the Jeff Tweedy connection. Apparently, he's also running his own restaurant. restaurant in Kansas City. It's like an Armenian restaurant called Isafhan. And I hope I did not brutalize the pronunciation of that word. But anyway, due north is a record I've been spinning a lot

lately. It's a very charming record. It's an album that I would say that if you enjoy, like, I'm trying to describe this Wilco period. I don't know if it's like the middle period that we would call it. Like that period from like Sky, Blue Sky and the whole love and Wilco, the album, period like that I guess late aughts early 2010s period i don't know if that's considered middle wilco or late wilco but um that has this sort of like soft rock sound to it that comes from like early 70s like really well played songs um that have a group to it up uh i would also liken it to like a lot of like mac de marco stuff which i know is totally an ian's wheelhouse uh but just beautiful songs very heartfelt lyrics and this is a record again i've just been spinning it a lot it's a

great summertime record. I guess it's going to be coming towards the end of summer, but definitely keep an eye out on it. There's been a couple singles from this record already that you can go here on any streaming platform, and I would recommend checking that out. But yeah, definitely mark your calendars for this record. Again, it's called Due North.

It comes out August 6th by Liam Kazar. And yeah, I'm excited to dig more into his work. Hopefully maybe even catch him live. I think he's got a lot of talent, and this record I think is really strong. So definitely check that out when you get the chance. Otherwise, that about does it for this episode of Indycast. Thank you so much for listening.

We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email. box.