Indiecast - Mailbag: The Modern Indie Aesthetic + Which Band Will Make A Comeback Next?

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

A lot's been going on in indie music lately. The 1975's Matty Healy — yes, we're talking about The 1975 again — has been pulling some very strange on stage antics involving raw meat (4:29), Bruce Springsteen dropped a soul covers album (:24), and last weeks' Indiecast prediction about When We Were Young Festival becoming the nostalgia festival blueprint came true with the nu metal-themed Sick New World fest (11:06). So on this week's Indiecast episode, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen are forgoing the meat of the episode to talk indie news and dive into some mailbag questions from listeners, including questions about Muse's The 2nd Law (20:13), modern-day indie aesthetics (28:25), and the next indie comeback (37:17).In this week's Recommendation Corner (52:39), tells listeners to check out Smidley's new album Here Comes The Devil. It's the solo project from Foxing’s lead singer and leans more psych-rock/late-aughts indie than his 2017 debut. Meanwhile, Steven shouts out Gold Dust, the project of Massachusetts singer-songwriter Stephen Pierce, who references The Grateful Dead and My Bloody Valentine on his shoegaze-y project The Late Great Gold Dust.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 114 here or below and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, we review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we respond to letters written by you, The Indycast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. Wait until you hear his album of classic soul covers.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? I just want to be abundantly clear with the Indycast listener that my cover album of soul, songs is just going to be like mediocre to shitty soul songs like i don't want the classic soul covers i'm going to go for whoever the you know the seather or chavelle of soul is i'm covering those songs actually scratch that one like chavelle they've got you know send the pain below red they got some bangers so uh shout to chavelle are you can do that uh my my least favorite

oldie of all time is that uh that song i think it's the four seasons uh oh what a bar mitzvac classic Late to six, nine, six to three. That's the worst oldie of all time. So you would definitely be covering that. I think that's like such a bar mitzvah classic to like this. That is like weirdly anti-Semitic. No, I'm just playing. Oh no.

Oh no. Not intentional. I know. You and KFC, man. Like you got. Oh, man. Oh, what a night. And let's hear it with the boy.

Those are two bar mitzvah classics. You can not fuck with those two. This episode has taken a turn. I felt the need to acknowledge that there's a new Bruce Springsteen album out today that we're not going to be talking about in this episode because it is a covers album where he's doing soul songs from mainly the 60s and 70s. I know there's a Commodore song from like the early 80s that he covered.

Nice shift, right? Yeah, that he made a music video for. And of course, I love Bruce Springsteen. Normally I'd be excited about a new Bruce Springsteen album, but I feel like an album where Bruce Springsteen sings old R&B songs, it seems like an idea that like someone who hates Bruce Springsteen would make up in order to make fun of Bruce Springsteen. You know, it just seems like the ultimate like aging boomer rock record,

you know, like the big chill of Bruce Springsteen albums. And I love Bruce. want to dis Bruce. I actually wrote about Bruce today. I wrote a huge piece ranking all of his albums, including the new one. It's called Only the Strong Survive. Not very high on the list. Spoiler alert. It was between Only a Strong Survive and Born to Run. I was trying to figure out, which album do I like more? I went with Born to Run. I don't know. I just like Bruce, I feel like he's leaning into the least cool aspects of his music and persona with this record. I'm just surprised that this is the first time Bruce Springsteen has done this.

Now, mind you, like, I mean, the classic soul album, like, the classic soul cover album is, like, the sort of thing, I'm sure, Van Morrison and Eric Clapton. Like, those are the people it brings to mind. Or, like, Neil Young is a joke doing something along those lines. But, well, wait, I got to find out. Like, where does the album with 57 channels and nothing on, rank? For whatever. Human touch? Look, you know better than me.

Is that the one? It's surprisingly high on my list. That's an album that I can respect as a train wreck. I would put human touch over the covers album. Just out of principle, I feel like an album of all originals, you have to put higher than the covers album. I just feel like at least you're writing your own songs. Maybe that's the rockist in me speaking. You know, I appreciate the attempt by Bruce Springsteen in 1992 to make a comment on cable television.

I guess that's what he was doing. It's an extremely Neil Young song to write. Yeah, yeah, very half-assed. But yeah, I did write about Bruce this week, and I did write a little bit about this album, but we're not going to be talking about that in this episode other than, I guess, right now. Are we obligated, Ian, as a podcast who talks way too much about the 1975? to discuss that viral video this week of Maddie Healy eating a raw steak on stage at Madison Square Garden. And this sounds like the setup of a joke.

This sounds like something that I would make up to make fun of Maddie Healy. But this actually happened. And I don't know why. Do you know the circumstances of this? I'm looking at the, I included in our show notes, the stereo gum link. And like Maddie Healy ate a raw steak while touching himself at MSG. is part of the URL, which entertains me to no end. He was touching himself, too?

Yeah, come on, man. Like, talk about burying the lead. You know, you can make the argument that, like, both of these things are just some sort of commentary on toxic masculinity and how, like, both of them is just, like, kind of reverting back to the sort of cave person concept of manhood. Look, this is a mailbag episode, and, you know, I don't know if anyone actually sent something to the mailbag about us addressing it. But people certainly bypassed the mailbag. Like this is to ask me directly on Twitter. It's like, hey, are you and Steve going to address this?

You and Steve need to address this because we've like covered far less essential 1975 news. I'm just I'm just like wondering if this is like setting the stage for him to do similar things, you know, throughout the tour. I'm seeing them in about two and a half. weeks, let's call it. And I don't know, is he going to tailor this performance to whatever city, you know, like he's going to do the same thing eating a bowl of Cincinnati Skyline chili or a lobster roll? Just like really, like they thought Springfield was the most rocking city in America, but it's

actually Shelbyville. Like, I don't know. Does San Diego have like a signature dish? California burrito. Okay, so he's going to be eating a burrito. Maybe he'll, like, rub it on his chest or something. I don't know. Is this like the fear factor era of the 1975?

Something about this smacks of desperation to me. It reminds me of that onion headline about Marilyn Manson where Marilyn Manson is going door to door, still trying to shock people. Is this just Maddie Healy feeling like we need some heat on this record, so I'm going to do something provocative on stage? I guess I don't really understand the context of this.

Was this part of a song? Was he just having a snack? I don't really get it. I mean, this is like kind of aligned with the viral video of Billy Corgan eating like chips and hummus on stage. So look, I mean, these shows are long. People need to have snacks. You know, as a dietitian, we have like the rule of threes, you know, where people probably shouldn't go more than three hours between eating. And, you know, if you're like a band with a huge catalog such as the 1975 or the smashing pumpkins, fuck it, have a snack.

Pull out the cliff bar. I'm like, fuck, I bring cliff bars and shit to shows nowadays where I'm going to see the opening act. I'm glad that our most famous artists are acknowledging the fact that, hey, you just need a snack sometimes, man. Yeah, I'm giving Billy Corgan the edge on this one. The chips and hummus thing, I think is pretty funny because he's like leaning up against like a speaker on stage. I don't know if like James I was playing a guitar solo or maybe there was a couple. a Jimmy Chamberlain drum solo happening. By the way, I went to see

Especially Pumpkins and Jane's Addiction last week and I made it about a half hour into Jane's Addiction set and I got a text from my wife saying that the family hamster died. So I had to step out during Ted just admit it. Jane is on stage. I go find a quiet place. I face 10 with my kids.

Weeping. Because this is the first pet that has died on their watch. So I had to leave. I didn't see Smashing Pumpkins. A dead hamster totally screwed up my Friday night. And I had to console my grief-stricken children about the hamster. So I saw about half of Jane's Addiction set, which was really good and really unintentionally hilarious. Like Perry Farrell is, I mean, have you seen any videos?

of their show. Like, he's on stage with, like, three burlesque dancers. Okay. Wearing lingerie and thongs, and, uh, I mean, he's, he's, like, he's, like, gallivanting with them on, say, it was like, wow, like, this guy, it's, it's, it's, it's like how Howard Stern can get away with saying anything, because people are just like, well, that's Howard Stern. Right.

It's like, Perry Farrell is just, like, bulletproof, I think, in terms of being canceled or objectionable behavior because it was the most like 1989 show I've seen this century like in a really long time I think that's well

first off it just I think shows the you know the effect of inflation because if this were like peak janes he'd have at least a half dozen burless dancers but well in an opening act if they were headlining you'd have a battalion of burlust dancers

I'm sure I think that your experience of the janes addiction show, you know, and I'm not laughing because of your family's misfortune, you know, like, I'm sorry that your hamster died. I just think it, you know, I think people would joke. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, it's going to be like 50-year-olds like doing Coke in the bathroom or whatever trying to relive 1992. In reality, like shows of this nature tend to be, you know, like dads and people with obligations. That was actually true as well when I saw Dia Delos death tones over

the weekend. People just assume that it's going to be angry-ass metal heads wearing flannels and board shorts in 40-degree weather. And yes, people were wearing flannels and board shorts in 40-degree weather. But for the most part, it's like dads and couples.

These shows like kind of price out the dregs of society. Yeah. It's a good show. I like Janes. I was sad to miss Smashing Pumpkins. I've heard their shows are actually really good these days. Yeah. It's a good set list. too. So anyway,

I'll catch him next time, I guess. I feel like another topic we need to address before we get to our extended mailbag is another viral item this week, which was the tour poster for a festival called Sick New World, which takes place

in Las Vegas. Is this a new festival? Yeah, it's, um, I'm sure there have been like some permutations of this festival bouncing around, but this is the first of its kind. So it's basically a new metal festival, or at least that's what the headliners are. You have system of a down on the top line. Second line, corn, your deaf tones, and incubus.

Then you get to the third line, Evan Essence, who I made a joke about Evanessence, I think last week on Twitter. And that account, that crazy-ass moments in new metal history, which is like a really good Twitter account. run by Holiday Kirk, I think is the guy. I think I saw him at Diadillo's Deftones. I'm not sure. I mean, I'm sure I did.

But yeah, I'm like, is this the guy I know from like the new metal account? Yeah, I think my name is mud with him already because I was involved in that Woodstock 99 documentary. But anyway, he sicked a bunch of people on me. So my mentions were, we're angry, but it was okay. You have Turnstile, Chavelle, and the Sisters of Mercy on the 3rd. third line. I mean, I just kind of want to read this whole poster because... It's incredible.

The poster's amazing. This is a festival. I like some of these bands. I don't know if I'd want to go to this festival, but I love the poster. So, I'm not going to read every line of this poster, but I do want to say, okay, on the fourth line, we have Papa Roach, Death Grips, and Mr. Bungle. Incredible line there. I love it.

On the fifth line, we have placebo, ministry, and she wants revenge. How's that? They are always available. She wants revenge is always available for your nostalgia package tour. What's that meme about like, you know, the ultimate like circle the past a join-in? You know, like that, that makes a circle. Dream blunt rotation, yeah. Dream blunt rotation.

On the sixth line, you have 100 gecks who, what's the status of 100 geeks at that? at the moment. I feel like they were think piece fatter for music critics in like 2020 and I haven't heard anything about them really since then. I don't know if

they're still buzzy or not. Do you have any read on the 100 Gex phenomenon at this point? Less than zero. I have absolutely no clue. Like I think they, 100 gex is bigger than music. I just think they more or less exist as like a

point of conversation. Maybe they are like Dr. Dre style perfectionists working on their detox or whatever. Or, you know, maybe they just don't, like, I have no clue. Or maybe they're just, maybe they really are the die ant vorder of the modern times. But nonetheless. Yeah, they seem a little like that to me. They have like a little bit of a Thai ant word vibe. But, you know, we'll see.

Yes. They're on the same line as skinny puppy and, coal chamber. Wow. My favorite line is the eighth line of the poster. You have Soulfly, POD, 7 Dust, Hubistank, and Alien Ant Farm. This shit rules so hard. Okay, and then the 10th line, this is another line I like.

Because this is like, now we're getting like a little, a field, I think, from the overall concept. because you have filter, Lacuna coil, the Melvin's, failure, and stabbing Westward. Fuck yeah. By the way,

how many lines are on this poster? Because you're at like 10, and these bands are way too big, these bands are way too big to be the bottom line. I was going to say, stabbing westward, they're like below,

they're well below, like, POD and Hubasank. I don't know. I guess my, uh, I don't have a good read on, like,

what the market is for, this. Because like death grips Yeah. They're super high. But I bet they insisted on being on the same line as Mr. Bungle. That seems like a perfect progression there.

I love this poster. It's just amazing. And again, it just presents so many questions. Like yeah, she wants revenge. Again, they're on the fifth line. That just seems high for them. But I don't know. Maybe in Vegas

I could see Vegas being a she wants revenge town yeah I mean they're well they're actually

like a really LA band I saw them at I saw them at what's just like heaven the blog the blog nostalgia

package tour I also love that there's at the bottom which I guess this might be the 13th line you have bands like

fiddlehead and narrow head and super heaven like the run for cover like Tumblr Kid line and also Panchiko. This is a band that

made an album in 2000 that was only rediscovered in 2020. I can't believe they're performing. Also body count cold. Like orgy. How can you not mention the fact that Orgy is playing this alongside like

the fact that we have like Orgy and turn style. Like what a festival. Yeah, yeah We've literally read almost every line of this poster Because and really this whole episode could just be us Like reading lines from this I think that would be a good bit of

You know this should become a meme Where someone just tries to come up with the most insane festival And you just line up Four bands on a line that just seem like they don't belong at all I mean you probably don't even have to make it up We're going to see more festivals like this get announced And it just does seem like a race to see Who can have the most

Inexplicable Bill But I mean this festival will do well And look, it's in Vegas I bet it'll be a ton of fun Yeah It's it you know we talked last week about like whether When we were young was the future of music festivals And this is this is same location

You know same sort of idea of like kind of I like to think of this as maybe like the Crow original soundtrack, the extended universe, because, you know, like new metal, quasi-rat metal, but there's some goth. Like this, this, this bill makes sense in a way. Like, I see it as just like kind of wacky in some ways, but especially given my experience being on, you know, alt-rock radio at 2001, like, yeah, you were playing some placebo, you were playing some system of a down, you were playing some Chavelle. And I think this is going to be, I mean, I don't know if I'd go to it, but, you know, just because, like, I don't like being in Vegas all that much. And, you know, festivals are kind of a nightmare to navigate. But one, the thing about this festival, aside from, like, you know, people making their usual jokes about new metal or like, you know, goth rock or what have you, is this idea that mashing these, uh, waves and nostalgia together is like somehow ripping off a bunch of suckers. I can't believe some idiot would pay 500 bucks to see this. It's like, no, I can't believe someone would pay 70 bucks to see Chavelle on their own just to like see, you know, send the pain below. This seems like just a massively awesome deal.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think you're right. When you go line by line, there's some weird juxtapositions, but overall, it totally makes sense. And, yeah. Let people have fun, you know. Like, this is a fun. This is, this is for like, yeah, it's like a certain type of dude or a certain type of woman who, you know, isn't particularly, uh, well received, you know, in the critical community. But fuck it, man.

Let these people have fun. You know, maybe we can get them to send us to this festival. Hell yeah. A live remote from Sick New World. I would be into that. I want to go see, uh, she wants revenge and placebo play after ministry. It would be a lot of fun. Let's get to our mailbag.

It's an all mailbag episode this week. We've got some great letters from our listeners. If you want to hit us up for a future mailbag, you can write to us at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. You want to read our first letter, Ian? I would love nothing more to read the first letter. So this comes to us from Drew, a citizen of the world, does not specify where they're writing from.

but they're He's in Cincinnati Drew from Cincinnati. I had to follow up with Drew to tell us When you write us tell us where you are We always like to know it I had to follow up with Drew But he told us Cincinnati

I'm sure he appreciated your skyline Chili shout out Yeah unintentional Yeah shout to You know The National Afghan Whigs The Covington Airport WKRP

Yep absolutely Cincinnati Indicast kind of town In the most recent episode of Indycast, you mentioned that the 10th anniversary of Muses the second law has passed, but no one complained about the lack of an episode. I'd like to use this opportunity to make my voice heard that there is still demand for hearing you hash this one out. Not really a question, but certainly a mailbag. Best regards, Drew. Yeah, you know, when I made that comment about

us forgetting the second law anniversary and no one complained about it, I suspected that we would get this letter for somebody that someone would step up and go, wait a minute, I do want to hear a conversation about the second law. So to be honest, I don't have a whole lot to say about this album. I'm just going to read from the Wikipedia entry about the second law. The second law is a concept album about a deteriorating planet that its inhabitants can no longer live on.

Major lyrical themes of the album include societal collapse, totalitarianism, and the second law of thermodynamics, which the album's title references. Do you know what the second law of thermodynamics is? I'm pretty sure I saw this reference on The Simpsons once. I think it's like that an object in motion tends to stay in motion, or is that the one where energy cannot be created or energy can't be created or, like, used?

No, no, it's the first one. It's like, Lisa in this house, we obey this. the laws of thermodynamics. See, I looked this up, and I read it, and I don't know if I totally understand it, but my understanding is that the second law of thermodynamics is that if you have something that's hot, it'll progress to something that's cool. Yes. That's what the sentence has tried to get across.

And also, boy, wouldn't Mews love to hear the fact that you tried to understand the second law of thermodynamics, and you were not fucking intelligent enough to wrap your head around it. Matthew Bellamy, he is an idiot savant, okay? He has both of the things going on. He's smarter and dumber than all of us. The album's cover art features a map of the human brains pathways, which was taken from the Human Connections Project.

The singles, Survival, Madness, Follow Me, Supremacy, and Panic Station were released in promotion. Survival was chosen as the official song of the 2012 Olympics. I feel like every muse album, is a statement against fascism that manages to sound really fascist. You know, like they're putting out singles called supremacy and madness and follow me.

There's something like a little, I don't know, like Mussolini-esque or something about everything that they do, but it's couched as a critique of fascism. I don't know. That's my take on the second law. That's all I got on this album. Do you have any profound thoughts?

the second law? How can you not have profound thoughts when listening to the second law? So I'm like wondering, you know, I almost want to go like know your meme style evolution of like how this somehow became one of our like most enduring bits. Maybe it's like the fact that, you know, of the three muse albums I reviewed for Pitchfork, like this was by far the most fun to write. You know, 2012 maybe like the kind of expiration date for like pan reviews that are funny as opposed to like, you know, trying to. to like make some sort of like societal commentary. But yeah, this is like, I actually did listen to this in preparation for this podcast because, you know, my hustle is different.

And this, it's amazing how little my opinion of this album has shifted. I think this is the one that in a way prefaced the softening of critical opinions on Muse because they just fully embrace camp here. Like, I think before this. one, whether it's like origin of symmetry or the one with super massive black hole on it. Like this is like, that's like peak era of Muse when you could probably make the argument that they're like, oh, Muse is actually a good band at one point. But this is where they start to, you know, get into that we made a James Bond theme.

We made an Olympic theme. I think there's some parts of this. Like supremacy is the one where he sort of sounds like Wario from Super Mario Kart. I'm gonna weed. Yeah, this is just, I think, Muse at their unintentionally funniest. Like, nowadays, they're trying to be kind of intentionally, like we're in on the joke funny, but, yeah, this is,

like, if you want to just kind of relive the point where Muse was at, it was still at a point where it was, like, fun to make fun of Muse, then the second law is really worth revisiting. I mean, it's just some of the most ridiculous, like, I can't believe people make. this music type of music. Well, their next album was drones, and that's the one with the big hand.

Yeah, that one was not far. On the cover. And, yeah, I don't know, because I feel like the album was super massive black hole. That's Black Hole's and Revelations. That was 2006. And that is the album with Knights of Sedona on it, which seems like that.

Pete Guitar Hero. And that's a pretty campy music video. I don't know what they were doing here in this era, because the album before the second law was the resistance. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, is this like a Tea Party record? It's always weird with them. Like, where do they fall politically?

It's muddled with them a little bit. I think they're sort of Joe Rogan, like, hey, I'm just asking questions here, you know, where it's like... Yeah, that sounds right. It's like, I would describe it as kind of like crypto-libertarian in the sense that, like, you were saying, they're, they have like a weirdly fascist take on combating fascism, like sort of like Ayn Rand or like Ayn Rand or what have you. It seems to be like very individualistic, um, and, you know, like anti-society, but also in a way that, like, utilizes the, uh, raw elements of fascism. Like, let me just be abundantly clear that I don't think Matt Bellamy is a fascist, nor is he advocating, like, for fascism. It's just that like,

as an artist you can't control what your fans or what have you do with it but it kind of fits within that like like Joe Rogan slash tool uh I'm just asking questions here kind of yeah I just think they're playing with imagery that and then not completely coherent kind of way so I think sometimes they make the opposite point of what they're probably trying to do like I know Glenn Beck loves this band. You can go on YouTube and just see Glenn Beck raving about how Muse is his favorite band. I mean, I think that says it all there. But anyway, I don't think we need to seriously analyze this album anymore.

I feel like the idea of us talking about this was probably more fun than us actually doing it. That's my suspicion here. But, you know, I hope Drew was happy that he got his second law conversation. Yeah, we'll see you again with this second law revisitation when it's 2032 and we're still hashing out trends for the 20th anniversary. We're just going to beat this bit to death over the course of decades. It's going to be great. Our second letter comes from Jade, who is from Chicago.

Thank you, Jade, for writing to us. Jade asks, wondering what your feelings are about indie as an aesthetic, versus genre in the meaning of indie in this day and age. Why is Taylor Swift on indie playlist? Is Jack Antonoff indie? What is indie in 2022? Big question here. Do you want to try to answer this one?

Yeah, Chicago via Gainesville, like I know this, I know Jade has had an against me phase. I know, like, this is like classic fest listeners. So, I mean, yeah, this question kind of gets at the, hey, can you explain your entire existence Indycast? Also, day and age, I know this is not like a peripheral shoutout to the Killers album, but it could be. I mean, I think that's, you know, relevant given that like our kill, we talked about the Killers on Indycast. A band that is sometimes called indie rock, even though they're not really indie rock in terms of their label or even their stature. But they did make the song, glamour. indie rock and roll.

That's true. So I think that, you know, as someone who makes, who has done a lot of emo genre lists over the years, I've had to grapple with trying to describe the difference between, you know, a musical genre and the culture surrounding it. And what I've learned is that pretty much all music genres that have lasted for, you know, several decades probably have started out as like literal descriptors. of like what it does, what it sounds like or what it does, you know, like rhythm and blues, grunge, gangster rap, et cetera, like trap.

And then they eventually end up as broad signifiers of the culture that sprouted up around it. So, I mean, obviously with indie, you know, that's like independent music, independent labels, what have you, I think it barely worth merits mentioned that like this does not describe like being on an independent label. like even like the artists that are on indie labels like feebie bridgers of japanese breakfast i mean these are like major ass artists so i think the best way to understand indie rock and maybe even like the only useful way of thinking about it is the considerate in the same way that alternative was once to use because you know going back to jane's addiction when i wrote that review of nothing shocking

for pitchfork sunday review uh you find out like you know alternative rock like really meant something at one point It was like this combination of independent labels and college rock, like stuff that you weren't going to hear up against, say, the damn Yankees or warrant in the late 90s. And eventually, as it, you know, it became more or less synonymous with, you know, mainstream rock. So you could still say alternative, you know, describe like Bush or candlebox or what have you. And it still meant something, even though it was like so far divorced from. it's original intent. So, yeah, Jack Antonoff is indie, you know, like Taylor Swift.

I mean, I don't know if she actually is on indie playlists or whether that's just like an assumption. But like you can make that argument. I think it's a useful description of things. And so if you think, and again, this is like a highly Gen X prism to view things through. But think of it like, would you say, would you use the word alternative to describe this situation in the mid-90s? then yeah, it's probably indie. It's funny that you bring up alternative because in a way,

if that term wasn't totally passe, it would in a way be more appropriate for a Phoebe Bridgers or a Japanese breakfast. Because they are more akin to like that 90s alternative idea than like a classic indie rock idea. So I don't know if alternative and there's no chance that term's going to ever come back,

but in that way, I think it could have. have a utility that would be useful now. I mean, it is worth pointing out that there is still a whole lot of people making, quote, underground music, you know, who are indie rock in the classic sense. And we talk about those artists every week on the show, usually in our recommendation corner segment. So that still exists.

What's interesting, and this is something we've talked about on the show, is that in the past decade, the signature artist or the banner artist or like the best known artists associated with indie music, along with the gatekeepers of indie music, have really made it their project to erase any meaningful distinction between indie music and pop music in a way that seems totally antithetical to what this music was in a classic sense. I mean, if you're looking at indie music like in the 80s and 90s, there was this idea of not being mainstream and being that in a proud way

and almost having a more confrontational posture toward mainstream culture. And of course now, that's looked at as also being totally passe. And, you know, the alternative rock era of indie in a way was in the 2000s because you had bands like Arcade Fire and the Shins and Bonny Ver that were very

successful. But there was a sensibility to those artists that again seemed different from pop music. You could say, because of the way they carried themselves or the way they sounded, you could make a distinction there. And it was almost like you're making a choice. Like I

want to be a part of this culture that seems separate from more of a mainstream culture. And then, you know, we mentioned Taylor Swift. I feel like her record, 1989, was the end of that because she basically made like a Heim record. And she wasn't looked at as like a carpet beggar. You know, people loved what she did. They loved that she was making a record that was influenced by like a lot of like the indie pop of that time.

And really, I think that's the moment where any distinction between like what she was doing and what kind of. Hime is doing or Lord or the 1975. It just became really academic at that point. And of course, now, you know, in 2022, you have a situation where, like, Mitzki is touring stadiums with Harry Stiles. Yeah. And next year, you're going to have Phoebe Bridgers, Hime, and Biba Doobie opening for Taylor Swift on her stadium tour.

So, I don't know. It is really hard to find. I really don't know how to define indie music other than the media that covers this stuff. That seems to be the only way it's defined now. Taylor Swift has, I guess, indie credibility because she's reviewed on indie music sites. But, you know, someone else in her lane. I'm trying to think of like, like, what's a pop star who doesn't get covered? Like Megan Trainor? I don't know.

I mean, like, and again, this is me, like, really, uh, struggling to think of, like, pop artists who aren't being covered because, you know, the people at her level would be, you know, like, no one's really at her level, but like, like, even just like a, maybe a slight step down, like, I don't know, like, do a leapa or, uh, fuck, you know, do a leapa. That's, but she's, but she's, like, wildly covered. So the answer is nobody really. You have to, like, look at, like, Charlie Peepa. youth or something like that.

Yeah, or like segments of country music. Right. You know, I think like most country music hasn't been absorbed into that yet. And I don't know. I mean, it's just, I mean, you can look at this in a wider context of how all culture now is kind of put in the same bucket. You know, like having distinctions or stratifications between different worlds in all forms of culture, it's really hard to do in the Internet age. And this seems like that's part of it.

Yeah. And that's why we have 100 gecks touring with Soulfly and Body Count. You know, the inexorable march of time knocks down all distinctions between genres. Boy, it's a really nihilistic way to look at Indy cast. But, hey, if we're covering it, it's indie. How about that? There you go. You want to read our next letter?

So this next letter comes to us from Phil, from Brooklyn, New York, not Brooklyn. Massachusetts or the other, I'm sure there are other Brooklyn's, but nonetheless, yeah, this is the Brooklyn, Brooklyn. One thing that's always interested me regarding acts with long careers is those that see a dip in popularity and then make a roaring comeback both in terms of quality as well as cultural relevance. In my lifetime, Green Day and you two are the most obvious examples, Green Day with American Idiot and you two with all that you can't believe behind after pop, which, great as it is, failed to connect with a broader audience. My question is, what current band or artist that is currently on a bit of a downward trend do you think has the most

potential for comeback, not just in terms of critical acclaim, but also in terms of critical relevancy and popularity? So he's asking, he's bringing up Green Day and U2 as examples where they actually had like a major comeback record that put them back on top and made them a big deal. And that's an interesting question. There's also the manner of artists that just get rediscovered by a new audience. You know, Kate Bush, I guess, being the most recent example. And that seems more plausible to me.

It's hard. I'm trying to think of like a band that was really big, then faded, and then, you know, and now are in a position where they could have a comeback record. Arcade Fire tried to do that this year And then I don't think the record was totally On the level And then there was the other circumstance With Win Butler

Is there an example of that That you can think of where someone has like a comeback record? It's so hard to say Because I think that You're right that like Phil's kind of asking two separate questions There's like the one of like a American idiot all that you can't leave behind where a band or an artist

has like a downslide and all of a sudden they just rediscover like we're back and you know reminding people what they love about them I feel like the strokes kind of had that with the new abnormal I know a lot of people love that album

I mean but it's not in the level of like American idiot you know what I mean where it's just a huge huge hit yeah it's hard for me to think of someone who could do who has fallen off and then could have the potential to just be huge again. The answer to this is like not smashing pumpkins.

You know, like that like that would be an obvious answer except the fact that like they released so much new music and like all of it is terrible. But I mean, let's not rule out you too because like, you know, less we forget, if we're talking about like critical acclaim, like songs of innocence was Rolling Stone's number one album of 2014, which you recently pointed out. And then there was songs of experience, which is the one that people forget about because it wasn't preloaded on their iPod. I think this one's more fascinating because it came out in December of 2017 and still managed to be the number three album on Rolling Stones'

Year Endless that year, like a week after it was released. So look, I think Bono's... But that's the end of it because Jan Winner's not there anymore. I don't see a new U2 record doing numbers like that on like a Rolling Stone list. That would be such a canary in the coal mine for... I mean, I kind of... I mean, I'm a little nostalgic for that era of Rolling Stone, I have to say, where Yon Winner was just putting his thumb on the scale and he's like, the second best album of 2014 is High Hopes by Bruce Springsteen,

which is like the worst Bruce Springsteen album ever. You know, I miss that era. I never thought I would, but I thought, oh yeah, that was, because he was such an autour of that site, even when he was steering them in the wrong direction. It was an interesting thing to behold, but, yeah, I think the better question here, or maybe the more answerable question is, like, who is set up for, like, a Kate Bush type revival? And I think there's some good answers for that that I have. I'm curious what you think.

in that regard? Well, I'm thinking, if not, you know, a Kate Bush style, like the level of that, or Metallica for that matter. Like I would, like in the space between those two Stranger Things episode, I think Metallica is exactly the kind of band that would benefit from that. But I think they already got that bump. But I'm thinking more along the lines of, you know, using the recent pitchfork 90s list as a bit of a metric, you know, like thinking about the fact that like Tom Petty and the cranberries and Cheryl Crow and Third Eye Blind were on there. You know, there are a couple of, you know, qualifications I usually make, like, first of which is, like, were they popular but sort of taken for granted? Like, are they female artists?

Maybe ones that were, like, wildly acclaimed but fell out of vogue in the early 2000s when, you know, critical things shifted. And are they a critically maligned act that was, like, super popular amongst young people who are now critics looking to put their mark on? things. I mean, when I view it in that way, REM is like always a candidate, but I think that they've been a candidate for so long that I can't imagine a way that they actually get that bump because like, you know, they haven't embarrassed themselves in any meaningful way since they broke up. And they broke up pretty definitively. Yeah, and I feel like they're like on an even keel, too.

I think that there's a general level of respect for them. But, yeah, they're not going to have that sort of like phenomenon type thing. That's hard for me to envision with them. Yeah. I think that like maybe like if you want to think who's the next, Beth Orton, you know, Beth Orton being a critical favorite in 2021. Maybe that's like everything but the girl. They have like a new album coming out.

An artist, I'm like really surprised. It hasn't gotten a major, if not reassessment, reappreciation, especially with like Kate Bush having the best 2022 of probably any artist is Tori Amos. I think she fits all of the characteristics of someone who was like really critically acclaimed in the 90s. You know, and I look my my CD collection in that time like skewed extremely male and problematic. But I still I still listen to like every single Tori Amos album a lot. And, you know, she sort of sort of lost the plot, you know, with Scarlet's Walk. But her 90s stuff is like fucking incredible.

And she's kind of, she seems like the last major female alternative artist who hasn't had that revival yet. You know, I feel like you, you last more set. You have like Liz Phair, you know, whole, all the way down the line. Tori Amos is like a major artist from that decade. I feel like there still hasn't been, she hasn't had her. moment yet. Yeah, it seems like she's overdue. Absolutely. Yeah. My, um, yeah, boys for Pele. I mean, just a fucking fascinating record. Uh, but yeah, like, Quire Girl Hotel. Like the not, this is not a net recommendation corner, but, you know, even Scarlet's Walk has, like, its moments as

well, like to Venus and Back. I just love that shit. And, you know, I'm just kind of, I don't know what is, you know, because it's not like she, like releases, you know, smashing pumpkins level of output. She's still an active recording artist. Yeah, that one seems like a very ripe for rediscovery artist. But if we want to talk about an artist, like an artist who meets both qualifications, which is that an artist who might release a new album and experience a significant bump in popularity and also allow people to re-appreciate them on a level of like Metallica, Kate, Bush, there's like only one real answer to that, and that's the cure.

because they've influenced like every single iteration of indie or alternative rock since they've existed, despite the fact that they haven't released an album I qualify as like better than just okay, like literally in 30 years. Like Wish is their last album that I consider better than good. And I love bloodflowers more than the average person. they've never managed to ruin their reputation or even like have any significant negative impact on it. And I know, like I know we've been saying this for like the past decade, but I really think this is going to be the year, 2023 that is, where they finally released that record.

You know, they're playing live. They're including new songs. You know, even though they got like the most generic, like I can't believe the cure haven't made five songs with this title yet. type titles. It could very well happen. And you know what? It's probably going to be pure fan service the way Blood Flowers was or like 413 Dream. But even like a half decent like Netflix saved by the bell type reboot cure album where it's just like, hey, remember this shit you love from the 90s.

It's back and sort of different. You know, if I get an album that's anywhere near as good as Blood Flowers, I'm going to be like parading in the street. So I think we're ready for the cure. I like that answer a lot. I like the Tori Amos answer a lot. I think they're both artists who are still defined by their best work and the lesser albums they've put out since then are just not entities. And I mean that in a good way.

It's not as if, like with Spashing Pumpkins, I think they did put out records that made people think less of their best work, at least for a while. But like with The Cure, it's like, who really remembers? what they put out since wish. I think most people only really remember the 80s. And like with Tori Amos,

they only really remember the 90s and they love those records. So the things that they've done since then, it hasn't detracted from what they've done. And it does seem like a situation where either one of them put out just a solid record that there would be a lot of goodwill out there.

They're also both artists, I think, that can slot comfortably in like lots of different contexts. Tori Amos could play like a singer-songwriter type festival, but she could also play like maybe like more of a gothic-eer type festival or more like alternative rock type thing. Like she can go in both lanes. The cure, I could see playing on like heavier music lineups

just because there'd be a lot of bands. I'm sure there's like a lot of contemporary like metal and punk bands that had a cure phase at some point. So you could definitely see them popping up there. They could play when we were young type festival for the 80s and 90s, and they could also play that new metal festival, I think, and not be outrageous. Robert Smith has done guest vocals on both Blink 182 and Deftones song, so absolutely. One thing I've noticed this year, and it's nowhere near on the level of Kate Bush and Metallica and the bump they got from Stranger Things. But I've seen more enthusiasm for Allison Chains this year than I have in a while.

The 30th anniversary of Dirt was this year, and there was a lot of conversation about that record. That's another band that I think straddles a lot of different scenes and eras, I think more so than a lot of grunge bands. The thing with the early 90s is that I don't feel like there's as much nostalgia or demand for that era, because it is more of a Gen X era, and millennials and Zoomers just seem to have more affection for like the late 90s. Like that's the 90s for them, more so than the early 90s. But Allison Chains to me seems like a band that can transcend that maybe a little easier

than other bands of their ilk. So I'm curious about them. I'm also wondering about, and this is just based, I guess, on Alex G. Talking about this band. but audio slave is a band. I wonder if they're going to have a moment because if you're 18 and you love turnstile, it's not that much of a leap

to get into that first audio slave record. I think that there's a lot of bands and there's a lot of bands now that maybe aren't directly influenced by audio slave, but that's sort of like funky, heavy riffing rock. I feel like that's having more of a moment now. And I just wonder if maybe, you know, if the Ridge Against the Machine reunion has been derailed,

I guess you can't have an audio thing, unfortunately, because of no Chris Cornell, but I don't know if, okay, I've talked myself into a corner with this one. Maybe they can't have like a real like sort of reunion tour, but I do think that there's a lane there for maybe that band being revived. I don't,

did you see that interview? Alex G. talked about hearing like a stone and thinking it was like the greatest song of all time. Yeah, I did see that one. And like to a similar degree after you're done, listening to this podcast, not during after.

Go find the video for coaches, the like audio slaves. I think it's the lead off track from the first record. The first minute of it is just the group, like music video, that

art form, it is just the zenith of this particular art form. Like, I cannot express in words just how fucking awesome the first minute of the Cochee's video is. Now, the rest of the song, I usually don't listen to it after that, but

look, Audio Slave definitely could have played the sick new world festival. That's like without a doubt. And I think you're kind of right in that, you know, rage against the machine riffs with, you Chris Cornell type vocals, not all that far off from turn style, because I think that, I don't know,

like, you're talking me into perhaps 311 being the band that maybe gets rediscovered. I think that people still have an affection for them. Maybe they get like a, you know, that's sort of low level. Oh, yeah, like sublime. Of course I fuck with them. So, you know, we've, we've gotten out of the corner of audio slave that you painted yourself in and ended up with 311. This is just like magic happening here at Indycast. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner,

where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I want to talk about a solo project from a respected indie rock outfit that we might have talked about here before called Foxing. The front person, Connor Murphy, has a project called Smidley, and their new album, Here Comes the Devil is out today. It's the follow-up from their self-title. down that came out in 2017, which, you know, it's not too far off from where

Foxing went with near my god, particularly the new record. More of like a psych rock, not psych rock, but psych pop, like, and almost late aughts indie sound. I say this as like a card carrying member of the remembering some guy's lifestyles. So you have to know, I mean this is a compliment. It's not, not too dissimilar from gauntlet hair. points or perhaps like yeasayer or like mGMT like and these are all bands I love but it's if you take foxing and you take out maybe some of the more like the emo elements or like the Prague like metal elements and just leave with like a really interesting like kaleidoscopic uh god I say kaleidoscopic and feel like such an asshole like that is such music critic talk it's quite angular ethereal and kaleidoscopic

um but yeah it's just seeing like a very interesting songwriting voice, taking things in more of a, like, bedroom psych pop direction. And, you know, like, I know that it's not going to, you know, make people forget about foxing. But I think it just shows an interesting wrinkle to this guy's artistry. And moreover, it's touring from, he's, I believe he's opening for Bartiz Strange right now in the Midwest. So, yeah, so now that, you know, might not get as much run as, like, a boxing record.

But nonetheless, just shows there's just, like, a lot. of talent in this band and a lot of interesting things and you know perhaps this is the this is like their last step before they truly go new metal which they've been promising for a few for a few years so i don't know let's see so the record i want to talk about is by a band called gold dust and i guess it's more of a project than a band by a massachusetts singer-songwriter named stephen pierce and this record that he put out that I like a lot. It's called the late great gold dust. And if you read his press materials,

he references The Grateful Dead and My Bloody Valentine. Wow. And you can probably guess from those references that he is combining folk music with shoegaze music. And this is something that we're seeing quite a bit lately. Obviously, you have a band like Wednesday that personifies that combination. We talked about the band Knife Play.

on this show a few weeks back. And then you have this band Gold Dust. And I like this record a lot. I've been listening to it all week. And what I would say is that, compared to the other records I mentioned, this one is probably a little dreamier, a little more sparkly.

There's something really huge sounding about this record, even though I'm guessing that the album was made under relatively modest circumstances. But whereas I, Like a band like Wednesday really leans into the heaviness of the riffs and juxtaposing it like with the sort of countryish elements of the songwriting. This isn't really a heavy record. It is again, I'm going to use the word sparkly. Is that another asshole rock critic word?

I don't think so. I think sparkly like sparkly is how normal people would talk about it. Like you would probably come up with like, I don't know. Like that's usually what ethereal helps cover. Yeah. This record is not angular, but it is ethereal. So I'll apply that asshole rock critic word to it. But anyway, yeah, it's just really pretty songs that have a real sense of breath and expansiveness to them.

So again, the band's called Gold Dust. The record is called The Late Great Gold Dust, and I recommend checking that out. We have now reached the end of our episode. Thank you for listening to this edition of Indycast. with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie,

and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.