Indiecast - Mitski + Animal Collective, plus: HitPiece NFT outrage

Episode Date: February 4, 2022

The indie world is nothing if not ripe for conversation. This week’s episode of Indiecast has Steve and Ian discussing HitPiece, the new NFT music platform that didn’t get permission from any artist to host their music (4:56), the release week drama for Black Country, New Road (12:41), and the arrival of a new song from the Red Hot Chili Peppers (17:35).The meat of this week’s episode features Steve and Ian’s reviews of new records from Mitski (34:12) and Animal Collective (44:44). While Mitski’s latest album Laurel Hell is a pivot to pop that still seems to feel weighed down by the overbearing Mitski stans, Animal Collective’s Time Skiffs is their first album in six years, and the rare “comeback album” that actually feels like a rewarding return to form from a veteran indie band. How do both albums hold up in the artists’ catalogues? Listen to find out.In this week’s Recommendation Corner (54:11), Ian is vibing with London outfit Deathcrash, while Steve is plugging Boat Songs, the new solo album from Wednesday guitarist MJ Lenderman.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review new albums by Mitzki and Animal Collective. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. You can buy his review of Childish Gambino's camp as an NFT. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you?

I think the real money move is putting your old, like, articles from, what is it, the Appleton record or whatever it is. Like we need Yeah. Appleton Post Crescent. You need to get the Appleton Post Crescent. We need to like really dig in the crates to get these rare These iconic pieces of music journalism.

What was it? Like what was the band that like you totally ripped on that got you like the version of 1999, like 1999 soft canceled on Twitter? Was it corn or creed? Yeah. No, it was corn. It was 20 years ago. I reviewed a corn concert and I didn't like the show.

And I read my review. I was pretty snotty in that review. I'm actually on the side of the fans in retrospect because I've also come around on corn since then. At the time, I hated corn, but I've come around on corn in the past two decades. So I'm actually on the side of the Stan Army for corn. I was a bit of a jerk in that review. So, yeah, if we want to do that as an NFT, you know, I was joking. joking about your review of Childish Gambino's

the gift that keeps on getting that and kid cutty. It's great. I do wonder though if at some point Condé Nest will be selling pitchfork reviews as NFTs. That's like not totally beyond the realm of possibility. Well, you know what? As long as I get a cut of it, like I don't care. Like monetize... Oh, you're not getting to cut.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and rework whatever contract, like whatever agreement I signed or back in whatever day where it's like I'm sure that they got good lawyers who have allowed for the possibility of like different streams of monetization you know which we're seeing with like musicians as well as like well we didn't it was I think fortet uh the guy you know electronic musician who made a lot of music I'm really into their deal with domino was made prior to streaming and I think the way it was structured was that it it's very vague as to like what new forms of revenues, like that weren't even considered back then might do. Yeah, I mean, who knows how they're going to be making money off of music in 10 years?

I mean, if there's going to be, you know, moon rocks or something, they're going to be implanting songs into moon rocks and it'll be worth a million dollars. And Elon Musk will own every song known to that. You know what? If Elon Musk is reading like a review I wrote about like freelance whales back in 2009, I mean, I'll feel a little more accomplished than I do now. What if, like, you know, one day you're looking at your inbox and you see an email from Elon Musk and you're like, what? Why is Elon Musk writing me?

And he's writing to complain about your review of Childish Gambino's camp. Like, Ian, 1.6, that's your IQ, dude. You know what? It would not be too off brand if he were to do that. So, like, unlike most, I don't know, people actually. acting as celebrities in my email box. Like, he's one who I would assume, like I would take it at face value. It's like, yeah, he seems pretty bored most of the time.

So therefore, I'm just going to go ahead and assume that Elon Musk, like, A, he seems like the type of dude who would really, really like Camp. And secondly, he seems like the type of dude who would email me off, you know, off the strength of that. So Elon Musk, he writes you, he said, well, I find the, this is America era too preachy from childish Gambino. I do love camp and your review is way off base. I mean, he married Grimes or he had a baby with Grimes.

I don't know if they were married. So he's obviously a pitchfork reader at some point in his life. Isn't that kind of like fucking scary that like a person with that much money and power, like, you know, may have been just like reading the for you, like, because I know you were there in like the Grimes era, like some D slot review that you wrote? Yeah. But, you know, again, my pitchfork writing career is very undistinguished. You know, I was, I like the joke that I was reviewing Johnny Marr solo records and like

Lake Period Camper Van Beethoven albums. Nothing against either one of those artists. But yeah, I wasn't getting the Childish Gambino review that you were getting. You know, we're talking about NFTs. I thought that we should at least bring up one of the big music stories of the week, which was this weird music website that popped up called, Hit piece, and they were selling NFTs of songs, apparently without the permission of artists. So you could go in there.

And look, I just want to say at the start that, because I saw people talking about this, I didn't follow it that closely because I don't care enough about NFTs to even get upset about them. I don't even like complaining about NFTs because it's such a tiresome topic to me on every level. Obviously, I don't like people selling. an NFT of a song without the permission of the artist. Presumably the artist wasn't going to be getting any of the money from these NFTs. If you haven't given permission, you're probably not going to give them money. I don't know.

I see people pontificating about this, getting upset about it. And not to say that you shouldn't pontificate against it, but I just, I do, I still don't care enough about it to care, to feel either way about it. This happened, I think, on Monday, when I was at Universal Studios Hollywood all day, so I wasn't on Twitter. And like, this is one of the stories where,

what were you doing at Universal? You're riding like the Simpsons roller coaster? Better fucking believe it. Yeah, that going to, you know, Harry Potter World, buying a $15 crusty burger.

Look at you. Yeah, seriously. Just take it a personal day, going to the Universal Studios theme park. Yeah, shout to them. I love it.

But yeah, like, so, you know, obviously it's a day where I'm like, you know, trying intentionally to be off Twitter and I think pretty successful. And then, like, when I check in at the end of the day, see if I have any, like, any, like, direct messages that I need to attend to. It's like, you see that this story has already been processed

and evolved in so many ways where it's like, I just can't get, like, I'm going to let this one pass and just not really care about it and hope it doesn't, you know, affect our latest episode of Indycast. just have enough information to hash out trends. This is like all I need from it because, I mean, yes, I know that like not caring about NFTs is probably like not the good move in the long game. Like I don't know if, like I don't know how long they'll last, but they're not going away at least kind of soon.

So my, like this is just one of those like scams where I know enough about it to be insulted that we weren't included. You know what I mean? Like, if someone was trying to sell episodes of indie cast without our permission, like, I want to be seen on the level of some of the artists I've seen complain about it. You know, and it's the people, like, when I've read the articles, it's like the same people who, like, you can usually see being outraged about anything that's happening. Like, I don't need to name names.

If you're, like, terminally online the way I am, you know who it was. Yeah. And so, like, and I'm sure we're going to read. We're going to get like an artist op-ed in the near future about like how, you know, this is like the end of music and so forth. I mean, it's like, I guess it was good that something else took the place of like taking your music off Spotify as far as performative outrage. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, there was the Joe Rogan thing and then, but that's still going. It's still going. I feel like the hit piece thing, like you said, it had a relatively short shelf-fly. It was a way for people to vent about NFTs, which a vocal contingent of people in social media hate. But I'm guessing rich tech bro type people. They love NFTs. I wonder if there's going to be a version of NFTs that aren't NFTs, like the next evolution of something like this and that that's going to be the thing that takes off.

Because it seems like the roadblock right now is that people don't really. really understand like what the hell this is and how can you have a unique version of like a digital product. I mean, it doesn't really make any sense. Yeah, I do not fucking understand. Like, this is the thing. It's like I don't care about it because I don't understand it. And boy, this makes me sound like a really awesome open-minded person. But like, I don't know. I don't, I think of it as like, well, I probably don't have crypto or NFT money. So ergo, like, worrying about it probably isn't a productive use of my time. I'm going to say that my mind is so closed that it's actually open because I don't,

I don't care either way. I'm just saying, like, I do not care. I don't care enough to get upset about it. I don't care enough to be excited about it. My mind is so closed that, like I'm saying, I think it's actually kind of open, because maybe I'm open to being persuaded one way or the other. When you say that, like, my mind is so closed that it's open, that kind of sounds like a tool lyric.

And, like, I just wonder if, like, a tool song, like about crypto or NFTs would be anti or pro because I could really see going really hard in one of the two directions. I'm going to say Maynard James Keenan is anti because he's like a Mr. show guy. I could see him just being cynical about any trendy, you know, tech bro type invention. So I would lean toward Maynard being against it, but maybe like Danny Carey, the drummer, maybe he's into it.

Yeah. Maybe like, I'm not saying they all agree. There's definitely one guy. There's definitely one guy in the band. Like in all of like the bands from that era, there's one guy who's got like, you know, kind of messed up politics. But yeah, actually, you know, I got the thinking, it's like as far as, you know, people saying, oh, what's going to, you know, put for Spotify's hand.

You know, it's certainly not going to be like, you know, with all due respect, Joni Mitchell or like failure the band. Like I would just love to see if like Tool got in there. it's like if like Joe Rogan's fan, like I'm imagining there's a lot of overlap between Joe Rogan's fan base and tool fans. But I think that, like people were saying, oh, Taylor Swift needs to, you know, make a statement

or what about Adele? It's like, nah, if you want to hit him where it hurts, you got, like, tools got to do something here. I, you know, I'm going to say, and look, this is pure speculation. We're just guessing. No, we're not. We're always spitting facts on this show.

But I'm speculating. I'm going to make an educated guess. that Maynard James Keenan is anti-NFT, and I think there's a good chance that he's maybe also anti-vax. I wouldn't be shocked if he's anti-vax. No basis in, you know, I haven't done any reporting on this, but I'm just saying he could be anti-vax. I wouldn't be shocked.

I'm guessing at least one guy in tools is anti-vax. One guy in tool is pro-NFT. Yeah. One guy's probably anti-vats. Yeah, it's like the Beatles. You got the boy band, like you got the 2022 boy band type thing. We're like, one's anti-vax, one's pro-crypto, one's got like a problematic TikTok. Like, by the way, I just got to say this.

Like, I did an interview with a band from that era recently. And he, like, the first thing this person said because the light was hitting my head in a certain way, he's like, oh, I thought you were keen in. It's like, no, dude, you should take that as a compliment. So, or no. It's like, you look kind of like Maynard. I'm like, well, I guess that's like better than what I have been getting. So, yeah, this is a very unexpectedly tool-centric episode, but I don't mind that. Well, we got on a tangent here.

To pull back to what we plan to talk about in our banter segment here, I feel like we need to talk about Black Country New Road. We do. They have a new record out today. It is called Ants from Up There. We were actually going to probably talk about them in the body of our episode, or at least in Recommendation Corner. But we're talking about them up front because the lead singer.

of this band, he left the band. Yeah. And I don't know how many of our listeners know about this band. I think they put out their first record last year. Yeah, they did. And it was very well received. I think we talk about it a few times in banter or just off the cuff. They were lumped in with that, you know, talky British post-punk thing.

Yeah, about the absurdity of the modern world. Yeah, which, I mean, especially with this new record that's coming out, I don't think they belong in there at all. I mean, we were just talking about Tool. I think they do have some prog-rock tendencies on this record. You love this record. I'm really into it. I have made like a 180 on this band because I went back and actually listened to the first record for the first time. And like, nope, still don't like it.

This new one, I mean, the distance between this and say, like, Young Jesus or The World's Beautiful Place or like Ockerville River. for that matter, not that far. But I mean, every time I really get into a new band, like there's this, you know, this underlying fear of please don't do or say anything that makes me feel like an asshole for like, you know, going on the record saying I like you. And, you know, it's almost like when you see a car trying to merge from a different lane and it's like, oh shit, it's going to hit me and it's not stopping. I have this like reflexive instinct when I see a band who's not like top of the top of the front homepage who's on the top of the homepage with a band picture and like a long headline like I don't even have to read it and I'm like fuck you know because that just means it'll usually say multiple allegations have come forth and it's like oh fuck not these guys and you know I read it and it seems

pretty amicable. It just seems like the guy left the band because, I don't know, maybe it wasn't great for his mental health. So it'll be very interesting to see how this plays out with the evolution. Because the band's still going to go. There's like eight other people in the band. They're still going to make music.

They're not going to go on tour. But yeah, it'll be interested to see how the reception or the, you know, reputation of this record goes from there. But it really bums me out to see this happen. And he is a big part of the band.

His vocal style is very distinct. Yeah, the lyrics are very distinct. You know? Lyrics are distinct. He has that deadpan delivery that a lot of those talky post-punk British bands do. But again, musically, it's much more expansive than a lot of the other bands that are surrounding Black Country New Road. There's almost like a British folk element on something. some of the songs that it reminded me of like listening to like old fairport convention records

on some of the tracks and then other tracks are um you know almost reminded me of like glacial 90s post rock indie music you know like slint things like that uh there's some songs that go on for nine minutes real kind of zone out type stuff it really is um the kind of like epic indie rock record that I know you love and I really love it too. I'm not surprised that this is your favorite album of the year so far. The thing about this band, like, I don't like this record quite as much as you do, but they are the kind of band where I feel like their next record is either going to be a masterpiece or a total disaster. Like Yuck 2.0 when they lost their lead singer. But the kind of disaster that will be fun to talk about in 10 years, if we still have this show.

They're just that kind of band. They swing big. Yes. And they're not boring. They might not always succeed, but they're not boring. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm intrigued by them hiring a new lead singer, or if someone else in the band's going to sing. Is this going to be like Phil Collins going out from behind the drums and becoming the new singer after Peter Gabriel leaves Genesis?

Or are they going to bring in, like, Sammy Hagar, like Van Halen? Just hire Sammy Hagar, Black Country New Road. They need more songs about, like, partying and tequila, you know what I mean? Yeah, and pound cakes and things like that. But yeah, definitely check out that record. Yeah, that's great. It's one of the, like, really good indie records to come out so far this year. One thing I'm a little disappointed by, and not good coordination by Red Hat Chili Peppers Management to,

because they're releasing a new single today. Yes. Today being Friday. And it's going to be after we recorded this episode. I feel like if they would have coordinated, they would have done it Thursday morning when we record so we could have talked about it. Yeah. Let's think big picture here, Warner Brothers. Yeah, come on.

I mean, people are going to, they're going to want our take on the new chili pepper song, and they're going to have to wait a week or they're going to have to go on Twitter, I guess. Because if we're yapping about it there. John Fashonte back in the band, it seems like people are excited for this. You know, like a new chili pepper. I mean, we've talked about this more than once on this podcast. We keep bringing the chili peppers back in. I don't know. I want to like it.

I'm in a place where I want to like this song. Like, I'm hoping it's good. Yeah. I think that with the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and, you know, there's been so, like, so many bands from that era being reclaimed. I don't know if, like, I don't know where. the opinion stands on red hot chili peppers whether people think they are terrible or whether they're like low-key good or they're just kind of like we appreciate the fact they exist um but i i i don't know

it's like i i want it to be good as well i think it would just be more fun if like they came back and were like themselves and good as opposed to like kind of the mid-tempo like by the way um californication sort of thing like if they were somehow able to like make another version of like suck my kid or like give it away. I want that so bad for them. I really, really do. My sense of the chili peppers is that music critics, our age, tend to make fun of them,

but music critics who are 10 to 15 years younger than us like them or are more willing to like them. Well, they didn't live through the one hot minute era. Like they, like, I'm like not being, I'm not being, I'm not being bullshit here. Like, they probably grew up, like, you know, their dad's or mom are driving them to school or whatever, and like scar tissue and the Californication are on the radio or other side or all the fucking time. And so that might be what they know them as.

You know what I mean? Well, not even just one hot minute, like mother's milk and, you know, wearing the socks on. Uplift mofo party plan. You got to go to shout to that. The socks on the penises, like that era, chili peppers, which, um, I don't know how they haven't been canceled. Oh, no, no. If you read the books, I mean, Anthony Keatis' book is like,

uh, uh, it's damn near like OJ. If I, like that OJ book, like if I did it, this is how. As far as like, if I were canceled, like this is all the reasons that you would. I don't know if there was like a statute of limitations on that dude. But yeah, they, or maybe this is the record that finally gets them to shut it down. Who the fuck knows? I don't know. seem to have skated.

I think they have that classic rock exemption, where people know, like, oh, David Bowie did some things. Yeah, charged the game or whatever. Or John Lennon, you know, it'll get brought up on Twitter every now and then. Like, people will just discover something from a musician's pass and it'll trend for 12 hours. But then it gets forgotten and it doesn't really seem to affect their legacy. It seems like the chili peppers are in that camp because, again, if you wanted to take down Anthony Ketus or any of the people in that band, not very hard. It's one Google search away

from taking them down. Not that I think they should be taken down. I'm just, I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened. But, you know, God bless the chili peppers. I can't believe I just said that. No, I can. This really tracks with Indycast as a whole. Like, yeah, I want it to be good. So I guess we'll find out, like when people are listening to this show, they will know if the song is any good, and they're going to maybe think it's kind of funny that we don't know what it sounds like yet when they listen to this episode. Let's get to our mailbag segment. Thank you all for writing us. We're at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. Always great to hear from our listeners. Ian, do you want to read this one? Absolutely. This comes to us from Keith in Oxford,

Florida. I had no idea there was an Oxford in Florida. Do they speak in British accents in that Florida town? I don't know. I know Oxford is usually the name of like a college town. I know that's the case in, you know, Mississippi, I think in Ohio, you know, England. So. Very learned part of Florida. Yeah. Oxford. Yes.

Sounds very dignified. Learned scholars. Anywho. In tank tops. Yes. Keith says, hey guys, long time listener and reader, first time mailbag, letter writer. I don't get the sense that either of you spent too much time worried about who is and who is not in the rock and roll hall of fame.

But in light of the 2022 nominees being announced, I'm curious. If you had a vote, big if, how would you prioritize your personal criteria for selections? Do you go with influence over popularity or sales? Where does critical acclaim, originality, longevity factor in? What other criteria would you consider to determine what makes an artist worthy of induction? So Keith assumes that we don't have votes. Ah. I do have a vote, Keith.

Yes. I am a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame voter as of last year. That was the first time I voted. Ian is not in. I am not. I'm working on it. I'm working on getting you in there because we need to have full Indycast representation in the voting pool. So I don't know if I should answer this first or do you want to answer this first?

Yeah, I mean. Should the non-voter answer first and then we'll get to the voter? Like you want to be my opening act here and answering this question? Yeah, this is definitely like Steve pulling rank after the whole like, oh, I just reviewed Johnny Morris solo albums. pitch for it. Well, let me fucking pull this card out. Yeah, you know, you're right in that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominations were announced. And I mean, this is yet, this like somehow ranks below the hit piece NFT story as far as things that sparked my interest. Like, I mean, I, should I read the nominees? Yeah, let's just do that. So these are the nominees. And just

to clarify here, they are not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame yet. There's a nominating committee. They nominate usually about 15 to 18 people. I think they're 17 this year. And then the voters will vote. We pick

five people out of here. So, the nominees are Beck, Pat Benatar, Kate Bush, Devo, Duran, Duran, Eminem, Eurythmics, Judas Priest,

Felakuti, MC5, New York Dolls, Dowie Parton, Rage Against the Machine, Lionel Richie, Carly Simon, and a tribe called Quest

and also Dionne Warwick. Multimedia thread. That is the craziest festival lineup ever right there. Okay, so, yeah, I mean, look, when I, when the Grammys get announced to like the Super Bowl halftime show

or the MTV Music Awards. Like, I get kind of annoyed about the conversation surrounding them because, you know, it's largely bands I don't give a shit about. But, like, I get a sense of why they matter and why people are talking about them. Like, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and her workings, like, I honestly would much rather read, like, a recap of The Bachelorette or, like, an episode of selling sunset.

Like, I just could not give less of a shit about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. If I were in Cleveland, I would probably be like, oh, hey, where's a good place to get a sandwich as opposed to like, let's go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? And it's like, the fact that it's still called the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I think, just kind of ensures its pointlessness. Because, look, with all due respect to Felicudy, I think it's like kind of presumptuous to assume that this, you know, giant of Afro beat and, like, is somehow rock and roll. I mean, if, you know, it's like, it's almost like saying like, like,

Inducting like Brahms or Beethoven into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Like, this person is a giant of like, oh, and I know that there's more of an influence going forward maybe, but like I don't quite see the connection currently. But, you know, otherwise, when you look at this list, it's like, how can you possibly take this shit seriously? I mean, like, I mean, Pat Benatar, like, I love as a battlefield. We belong fucking incredible songs. I've liked them more than anything the MC5 did. But, like, I don't know.

It takes a lot for me to think of more than two Pat Benatar songs because, like, We will be invincible. I get that confused with, like, hit me with your best. Is she hit me with your best shot? Or the warrior? or is that scandal? The warrior is her... No, that's scandal.

Okay, you see... Scandal. That's Peggy's my... You know, like, at least with... Like, the baseball Hall of Fame is like, you know, complete crack of shit as well. But, like, at least there's, like,

some sort of objective criteria. With the rock and roll... Yeah, you need stats. Yeah, you... Yeah, there's no equivalent to batting average home runs, RBIs. And the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

to me is sort of like the Grammys in that there's, like, what seems every year, like a clear attempt for them to address like, I don't know, the concerns about the limitations of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with also this bigger, this bigger block of like just dullered boomer nostalgia. And it just, it's just completely untenable. And I, I just don't really care.

I mean, like, if you care about it, great. If you want me to vote for it, fucking fine. I will like nominate sponge because you know what like Pat Benatar they've got like three really fucking great songs. Well you won't be on the nominating committee just like I'm not on the nominating committee. Look I mean you've, okay, I think you've roasted the Rock Hall. No, I have not. I got a half hour more material.

The people want it. Well, we got to get to Minsky and Animal Collective at some point. So just let me say quick that I don't really dispute a lot of what you're saying. But my attitude with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was, no matter my misgivings about this as an institution, it exists. So if it exists, I want to have some sort of input into it. So that's my stance on it. But yeah, your points about the idea of like Felakuti, for instance,

being a part of the rock and roll story and not the Afro Beat story, I think that's well taken, although I think multiple things can be true. You can say that he's a giant of Afro Beat, putting him in the rock and roll hall fame doesn't dispel that. All it does is maybe expand the definition of rock and roll and what it can be, which I don't think is a negative thing necessarily. To get back to the original question, he was asking like, what criteria do I take into account when I'm voting?

I mean, obviously some of the things you mentioned are important. I mean, I think actual quality is important. That would be like my number one criteria. Do I think this is actually a great artist? And then you take into account the impact that they had on music, the influence they had on music. One thing that I really ask myself when I'm deciding whether to vote for somebody is, let's say someone goes to this museum in 100 years. I'm assuming that the Rock and Hall of Fame in this scenario still exists. And like everyone, like we're all dead.

All these musicians are all dead. And everyone alive, they have no direct knowledge of this era of music. Do you feel like the person could go to the museum and have an accurate or complete picture of what mattered a hundred years prior if you voted this person in? Is this person an essential part of the story? So I would say that that is a big criteria for me. And, you know, it really separates artists who are really great and that you like from artists that maybe you don't need in a museum to tell that story. You know, like, they're great, but like, they weren't a hugely significant part of, you know, why music mattered or how it changed or how it evolved. Looking at this body of nominees, it's interesting because a lot of these people have been nominated before and didn't get in.

You know, Kate Bush, I know, Judas Priest, Felakuti was nominated last year, MC5, New York Dolls, Ridge Against the Machine. There's a lot of repeats in this class. It'll be interesting to see who gets in. I would say that the biggest lock is not in. There's no way she's not getting in. And I actually feel like Eminem is a lock, too. And I think he should be a lock. I mean, no matter how you feel about him,

he is, I think he's the best-selling rapper of all time. He's got to be the best-selling rapper, hugely influential. And, yeah, if you're talking about the history of rap music, you have to talk about Eminem. I've seen people make this point that it's kind of, kind of weird to induct Eminem when there's a lot of black rappers who preceded him, who are not in the Hall of Fame. But I don't think keeping Eminem out is necessarily the solution of that.

I think you put Eminem in, and then next year you try to get some of these other people in. It is interesting to me that we still haven't seen a lot of the great indie and alt-rock bands of the 80s not only not get in, but they're never even nominated. very often it's like Sonic Youth hasn't been nominated yet? I mean they might have been nominated once but you know like I said

in this current class of nominees some of these people have been brought back at least a couple years in a row you know there seems to be something there seems to be an effort by the nominating committee to push certain artists to give them more chances whereas you know Sonic Youth

again basically all the R band could be your life bands other than actually REM's not in that book. So I think, which is weird, because they should be. But yeah, like Blackfank, Husker Do, Dinosaur Jr., Minutemen. And even getting into some of like the grunge era stuff, like Nirvana's in, Pearl Jam's in, but like Soundgarden, Alice and Chains.

No fucking way. None of these groups are really, I mean, Soundgarden might have been nominated once, but, you know, it seems like these bands get nominated once and then they don't get brought back. or maybe they get brought back again five years later. You know, because like, Rage Against the Machine, like they've been up at least twice and maybe more than that.

And I know Tom Arello is on the nominating committee. So I don't know. You know, audience slave might get there one day. Yeah, who knows? It'd be funny if they got in before Wage Against the Machine. And Soundgarten. But, you know, I mean, nothing against, like, Lennel Richie or Carly Simon. Like, they're fine.

they made good records, but like if we're talking about like a rock and roll of fame, like how essential are they to the story of of music of the last 50 years? I mean, Lionel Richie I would make more of a case for, but I don't know. He's, or like Eurythmics,

like I think Eurythics are a good band, but I don't know. Like, were they ever considered like the most important or the greatest pop act of their time? I mean, I don't know. I guess we'll find that out when people vote. I think ballots go out at the end of February.

So I don't know. We'll find out. And then we can talk about this again. And Ian can, you can finish the rest of your half hour rant against the Rock and Roll Hall fan. People have spoken. We are, we went long so far. We have to blow through our reviews here to get out in time. Let's talk first. This is the meat of our episode, by the way.

Let's talk about the new Mitzki record. It's called Laurel Hell. It's her first album. since Be the Cowboy, which came out in 2018. And on this record, you see Mitzki taking some steps towards the pop mainstream. She co-wrote a song with Dan Wilson, who is a collaborator of people like Adele and Taylor Swift. She's also, after her American tour, she's going to be playing stadiums with Harry Stiles this summer. In the UK, yeah.

She's pretty amazing. And yet there's also evidence on this record of something that Midgues. Mitzki has been talking about in a lot of her interviews. If you've been reading profiles of Mitzky on this album cycle, she's been talking a lot about how I think she has a certain ambivalence about her music career. Of course, in 2019, there was speculation that she's going to be playing her last show, and she dispelled that, although in her recent interview, she said that she actually did come close to quitting her music career.

And this has become the predominant narrative when people talk about Mitzky. Is she going to quit or is she going to stay? And the thing is that I feel like that ambivalence has seeped into her music, which you can hear on Laurel Hell. I wrote about this album this week. I'm curious, what do you think about this record? Yeah, so, you know, I think my definitive Mitzky moment was when I saw her back in 2016, it was shortly after the Puberty 2, like on the Puberty 2 tour. And she can usually be a very magnetic performer, but that night, like, you could just

tell she was just really over it. Like, she was like, okay, here's my big hit and played your best American girl. And, you know, I think that everything about this particular record, especially after Be the Cowboy made her even bigger, has been, like you said, this ambivalence of just being, like, feeling accountable to your fans, I think that, you know, I'm sure as someone who wrote maybe the most overtly negative review of this album thus far, there's this, uh, knee-jerk feeling like, oh my God, you're going to piss off the Mitzky Stan Army, which, as she's said in so many interviews, like, is kind of a frightening thing to behold. Like, you know, I know artists can't really account for how people relate to music once it's

out in the world, but like, she's said very overtly, like, hey, don't, like, don't put me up on this pedestal as being like the voice of all, you know, Asian American people or what have you. And, you know, what I get the sense from this record is it's almost like, okay, here's the record, let's move on to the next thing. Because I think a lot of this record was already written like alongside Be the Cowboy. And it sort of sounds like that too. You know, aside from like working for the knife, which, like, outwardly addresses the, like, should I continue with my music career?

A lot of these songs in terms of theme and. vocalizations, like, sound like cowboy B-sides, just kind of gussied up and, okay, here's my album. Because, I mean, working for the knife was made as, like, a form of contractual obligation. She's outwardly said that. Yeah, which is a weird way to sell a record. And, you know, and I have to say, you mentioned my review. I mean, right in the headline, it says this album is a disappointment. So it wasn't, it was pretty out front that I'm not really into this album.

And it was funny when I tweeted out the review, I would say about two thirds of the comments back to me were people saying, oh, I'm sorry about your mentions. I'm sorry about your mentions. Whereas there was only like maybe two actual like angry people. You know, it was more people worried about Mitzky fans going crazy than actual crazy Mitzki fans. And maybe I just got lucky or maybe there is a consensus feeling that this record isn't really. as good as her previous work, which I think is actually the feeling out there.

I mean, there wasn't a lot of excitement for her singles. You know, it wasn't the same kind of build. That really, I don't feel like people were talking about. Like, were you seeing excitement about it? I mean, I'm pretty sure working for the knife was in Pitchfork's top 10 of 2021. I feel like there's maybe excitement for this,

like kind of just off screen of like the people maybe we typically follow, but look, maybe. Yeah, I'm... I don't know. I mean, the reviews that I'm seeing are mixed. Really? I mean, didn't you feel like the pitchwork review was pretty mixed? I thought the score was way more generous than the review.

Well, I mean, they were like, they were like, when I read it, it's like, okay, they're open about its flaws. But I think this is like a kind of a daddy's home situation where the review, like, you know, there's the quote, word on the street. as we might describe it, and then the actual reviews itself. And there's a real, like, maybe, there's definitely, like, a lesser excitement around this record. Like, justifiably so compared to, like, puberty to or be the cowboy because, like, I think it's, like, extreme. Like, I think it's very mediocre. Yeah, I mean, I think it's by far her worst record. And especially of, like, her, you know, I mean, because her first couple records were self-released and then Bury Me and Make-Out Creel.

was her breakout. So if we consider that era, like the post Barry Me era, this is, I think, clearly the weakest record. And I made this point in my review. I think one way this album suffers for me is that it's yet another record

that is drawing on 80s pop music, which has become, I think, a really tired cliche. I mean, Taylor Swift, 1989, that record came out eight years ago now. I mean, that's how long this has been a trend in Indian pop music.

So that feels a little bit tired. And then I think that's compounded by the fact that this record comes so close after Don FM, the weekend record, which I think prove that you still can do 80s nostalgia extremely well. It just helps to have people like Max Martin and one oh one oh point tricks never in your corner, like just incredible production talent, incredible songwriting talent. And after listening to Don FM, Laurel, hell, to me, just sounds kind of weak. compared to that.

It's not catchy enough. It's not like shiny enough. It just doesn't have the same kind of zip that that record does. And, you know, to extend this weekend comparison, you know, he became a huge indie star. I think even bigger than Mitzki is now. I think he was really big. Way, way, way, way bigger. But then when he wanted, but then when he transitioned to being a pop superstar, he actually, you know, he, like,

got in people like Max Martin. Like he leveled up. And that's how he entered that world. And with Mitki, I feel like she's kind of doing that. But not really. It's like she's trying to step up and surrender at the same time. And she's succeeding at doing neither. Yeah.

So to me, that's the weakness of this record, is that it just feels non-committal to me. I guess I'm not sure. Does Misky want to be like a pop star? or does she want to be like the cult hero? And I think she could do either one, but I think she can't have it both ways. And I feel like that's what this record is trying to do.

Yeah, I think that there could be a fascinating record about that conflict if more of it was, I guess, lyrically in the vein of working for the knife. But, yeah, like 80s pop, it's just been so stripped mind that it's impossible. It's not impossible to get anything new out of it, but also you add the layer of, you know, kind of her wheelhouse of like 90s pop alternative rock along with it and it just makes

this record sound I don't know like very tame and behind the times almost like there's so many bands doing this but especially in the past year like doing a more pop version of it um that it's out and also like I'm just really surprised by the production because like it's the same people who did, you know, her previous records, her and Patrick Highland, like a really talented, imaginative producer. And a lot of the synth tones on here remind me of, like, what you can dial up on Logic X, like the kind of synth, like the preset, where if like you're a novice musician, it's like, oh, cool, like now my, like, this sounds like an 80s pop song. But like, you know, if you're like an actual musician, it's like, yeah, you might want to like use something

other than like the stock plugins. Yeah, there's just a sense of defeat around this record, which I guess if like you're a Miskie superfan, you can really read hard into it and say it was all intentional to be this conflicted or noncommittal. But to me it's just like I don't feel like putting in the effort to hoist this up.

Look, I like Minsky. I think she's talented. Oh, absolutely. I think that she's going to have a bright future beyond this record. Should she choose the half one? Well, maybe she has a bright future tending to her garden in Nashville.

I think she's living in Nashville now. But I really feel like she maybe has to move on and work with some other people. I mean, that was my feeling listening to this record. You know, she's made all these records with Patrick Highland. It just seemed like maybe a change would be good here because it just seems a little tired to me

and I think she could benefit from working with other people. Maybe Max Martin. Maybe he wants to work with Mitzki. Who knows? knows. But yeah, to me, again, I feel like this record is a disappointment. You said it's getting good reviews. I guess I need to dip into the Metacritic here and see other responses. My sense is that this album isn't going to age well, even the people who are reviewing it well. It seems like

the kind of record that will fade pretty quickly, but I've been wrong many times before. Maybe this will be a top 10 album of the year on lots of lists. Let's get to our next record. It is Time Skiffs, the 11th album by Animal Collective. It's their first record in six years since 2016's Painting With, speaking of albums that have faded over time. Yeah, no one liked Painting With when that came out. Yeah, maybe so. You know, I'm going to say this later,

but I actually revisited that album during the course of reviewing Time Skiffs, and I actually kind of like it more than I did at the time. Let's hold on that for now. again, this is the first Animal Collective album in six years, although the band members have worked together in various other permutations since then. You know, like when I wrote about this record last week, and one of the things I wrote about was just reflecting

on the era of hipster hysteria, like when people just would complain about hipsters all the time, just hating hipsters, you know, and that coincided with the real sort of peak of animal collective. fame. You know, Mary Weather Post Pavilion

comes out in 2009 and they become a band that a lot of people like and also the, I think a focal point for a lot of this sort of anti-hipster sentiment that was there

at the time. And it seemed like for people who didn't like Animal Collective, that there was the suspicion almost that they, that critics who liked them were tricking them

into liking this band or that they didn't really like this band, but you know, they were weird or they were, you know, this was the kind of thing that we're sort of forcing people to life. Which I thought was a really interesting thing to look back on because I was reading old, you know, music reviews and columns. And I don't know if you remember this, but, you know, the past in Jop poll that year 2009. Gapty.

Gapty. Gapty. Or Gap T, or Gap T, which is like Grizzly Bear, Animal Collective, Dirty Projectors, Phoenix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. So it was really like the peak of Indy Rock being, you know, in vogue critically. And I remember that there was at least one column. And there might have been multiple columns that the Village Voice published coinciding with that poll where they admonished their voters for putting so many animals, like putting Animal Collective up there and Grizzly Bear and just hating Indy Rock so much. And I really think this upset a few people online when I wrote this, really do think that in some sense, because the Village Voice at that time was a pretty influential publication. And I think that there was some degree of like working the refs at that time.

Because what the Village Voice was saying basically is that if you like these bands, you are lame. Yeah. It is lame to like these bands. And not to say that Animal Collective would have just gone on to huge success that that hadn't happened. But I do think that that was an integral moment in the, turning of the tide away

from these types of bands. And it's just interesting to reflect on that in retrospect because, I mean, Animal Collective only made two records in the 2010s. They made a lot of music, but two albums. They made a lot of music, but like under the name Animal Collected,

that is a brand name, which I think has a certain power in the marketplace. They did EP's and visual albums and lot. Like, they put out, but yeah, I was surprised to hear, it's like, yeah, this is actually their first record, like album, album since 2016. But they really backed away from the spotlight, you know, in a real way. And maybe they would have done that anyway, but I'm sure it was weird for them to be this lightning rod. Yeah. You know, because they don't really seem like the kind of guys that would welcome that. You know,

they just like want to mess around with floor times and delay pedals and all that kind of stuff. and anyway, all of this is to say that the new record sounds to me like the kind of record that a lot of people maybe wanted to hear after Mary Weather Post Pavilion. Like if this had been the follow-up to Mary Weather Post Pavilion, I wonder what their career would have been like because it is the pop-iest, most straightforward animal collective,

I think, by far. It's like way straighter than even Mary Weather Post-Pavilion. I mean, there's very little about this record that's weird or noisy or off-putting, which I think is kind of like a for better or worse proposition with this band, don't you think? Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right in that, I don't know if I'd call it the most pop record,

I think it's the most straightforward in that it's not as outwardly abrasive or annoying as centipede Hertz or painting with was. Like, Flora Dada, like I think it's a very dumb song that I love watch the video. Like, if you do nothing else from this episode, like watch the video. It's real, like, it's so, they either have to be, like, so self-aware that it's painful or, like, just lack self-awareness of any modicum. But, yeah, like, when I hear this, like, I've always believed that Animal Collective was just one album like this away from, like, getting, I guess, not their reputation rebuilt, but, like, having a different attitude towards them.

because what you were describing that sort of acclaim and backlash simultaneously happening was that especially in the past decade, there was this idea that people were tricking people into liking Animal Collective and similar bands. And that this was happening at the expense of pop artists. You know what I mean? Like that's always been the disingenuous part of it. It's like, oh, people are tricking us into liking Animal Collective instead of, say, you know, the most ubiquitous music on the face of the earth, you know, it just so happens to be

that this type of music was loved by blogs and websites back when they had a oversized influence. You know, that just happens to be it. And so I think that the desire to move on from that era has resulted in the music being criticized in a way that's a bit unfair. But yeah, I mean, this is, you know, I enjoy this album and I can put it on probably at work without annoying people. Like, a beach house record, you know what I mean? Which is good, but also I'm like, I kind of want that abrasiveness. You know, I want, even the, even how it existed on like feels or like strawberry jam, which are seen as like at the time, very accessible animal collective records.

Yeah, I feel the same way. To get back to what I was saying about painting with, which came out again in 2016, and I feel like that just came and went when that album came out. people were like, I don't have the patience for Animal Collective anymore in 2016. But when I was, you know, listening to Timeskifts, I went back to those 2010 era records. And I felt like, you know, yeah, painting with is like a little too abrasive. But I feel like if you made a playlist of the best songs from Timeskiffs and the best songs from painting with, it would almost achieve the balance that you're talking about where you'd have some

beautiful songs and you'd have some more abrasive songs. and I feel like that's always the sweet spot with this band. Like you bring up feels. That to me is my favorite. That's, I think, the best animal collective record, in my opinion. And it's almost split evenly, like, between noisy, upbeat songs and these just beautiful, like, more ambient sounding tracks. So, yeah, I mean, that was my feeling list in this record, too. Like, I like it for what it is.

And I think it is the best record they've made since Mary Weather Post-Favilion. But yeah, I do wish it was like a little weirder than it is. Yeah, I mean, when you talk about painting with came and went, like I just remember back in 2016 when I was still living in Glendale and L.A., there was like a stretch of like a half mile of road that had, I saw like four different animal collective painting with billboards. That's like the one thing I miss about L.A. is that Domino Records would always have like so many billboards

for whatever record they were putting out at the time. And I don't see that in San Diego. But yeah, like, I think if Animal Collective were putting out records at the same pace that they were in the 2000s, I might be more excited about this because, like, okay, they're getting their more conventional one. Maybe they're going to do something weirder next year. And, yeah, I think that, like, with this, it feels like, okay, cool. like I like this record and also like I want them to be

seen as this like oh no like people I want them to like make people think that you might have to be lying to like them you know. Yeah I mean I think the best thing about this album hopefully is that for maybe younger listeners that have never listened to Animal Collective if this is their entry point I think it is a very accessible entry point

and that will lead to the older records But it's nice to have Animal Collective back. I think we can both agree on that. Back, well, back, but also, like, making good music. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so in lieu of Black Country New Road,

I have a band that's kind of associated with them called Death Crash. They're a British band that I believe toured with Black Country New Road last year. They have been described. I had not heard of this band prior to last week, but it's one of those records that you see on, like, emo Twitter, getting recommended, like, getting described as like what would seem like incompatible bands. Like, it's like, oh, it sounds like slint. It sounds like Maguire. It sounds like American football, but also low in codeine. And, you know, it's, okay, this shit sounds like it's right up my alley.

And lo and behold, particularly while it's still quasi-goy. winter in San Diego, i.e. like 50 degrees. This sounds really good. It's an album called Return. I believe it's still their debut. And yeah, it is slow core talking vocals if you liked Spider-Land, but also wish it was a little more overtly pretty like an American football record with those pretty guitar arpeggos. This is an hour of it. So this to me seems like a sleeper album. I think that it'll slowly accumulate renowned in the various realms of slowcore, emo, Twitter, indie cast listeners.

So yeah, check this one out. Like, I have, you know, forewarning, it is slow. And also, it's very immersive. So if you have like a half hour or you just want, not half, like an hour, if you just want to stare into the middle distance, pondering our bleak existence, or looking at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominees, this is your album, that's crash return.

So the album I'm going to talk about, I think, could also become a sleeper hit this year, at least with our listeners. It's by a guy called M.J. Lenderman. You might know him as the guitarist in the Asheville, North Carolina band Wednesday, whose 2021 album Twin Plagues, I can say I kind of slept on that record.

I was aware of it, but I didn't really dig deep into it, but it's been an album I've been actually really enjoying for the past month. I've heard it described as, like a shoe gaze country record. It probably means more on the shoegaze side, but there are occasional tracks that are a little folkier, have some lovely pedal steel guitar,

along with those heavy shoegaze type riffs. On his own, Letterman makes more kind of straightforward alt country. I would say also very chugally alt country. Oh, there it is. For all the Chugel fans out there. And while he has the Alt Country influence. He's also like, he's not like a sad sack type song or songwriter. A lot of his lyrics are really funny. The single that he put out recently is called Hangover Game. And it's

about Michael Jordan. And it talks about, you know, getting the pizza delivered to him in Salt Lake City. It just runs that down. It's a really funny song. And it's set to like really kind of chunky guitars that remind me of like A.M. era Wilco. Or like even like being there. Arrow Wilco. His album is called Both Songs. It comes out April 29th, so we have some time before that record comes out. I can say though, since I have the promo, it is one of my favorite albums of the early part of the year. It's really good stuff. So I would say for now, definitely go to your streaming platform of choice or go to Band Camp where you can order the record. Listen to Hangover Game. It's a really great song, really funny song, catchy as hell. MJ Lenderman, remember that name. We are now out of trends to hash on this episode, so thank you for listening to IndyCast. We'll be back next week to trend more hashing

or to hash more trends at that time. Take care. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to Uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.