Indiecast - MJ Lenderman's "Manning Fireworks" + A King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard Scene Report

Episode Date: September 6, 2024

Steven begins today's episode by apologizing to Ian and the Sum 41 fan community for his recent disrespectful comments on the pod -- new information has come to light that made him rethink his snarkiness (0:58). Then there is a short Sportscast about the new NFL season (4:25), and more despair from Steven about the state of his fantasy albums draft team (12:08).The guys then pivot to the new MJ Lenderman album out today, Manning Fireworks. It's Steven's favorite record of the year, and Ian likes it, too, though not as much (15:06). Steven also recounts seeing King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard live for the first time this week, which made clear just how huge that band is (28:02).In the mailbag, they address emails about the worst contracts in music history (38:29) and whether they "yay or nay" the band Girls (47:42).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the emo band Floral Tattoo while Steven stumps for a new book by The Hold Steady's Franz Nicolay (56:23).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 205 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about M.J. Lenderman and King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. I hope you can forgive me for accidentally disrespecting some 41. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? I don't want our listeners to think that I've been trying to pitch a all-killer, no-filler Sunday review for the past 10 years or so. You know, maybe for the follow-up, does this look infected? But I think you, like, I don't know if you accidentally disrespected some 41. I think that was, like, intentional, but. Well, what I mean is that I disrespected them based on faulty information on my part. And I just, I just wanted to a quick fact check here because.

You know, I think people, they listen to this show and they inspect, they expect integrity from us. They expect boots on the ground journalism. So I was doing that this week. I was talking with my friend Derek, a good friend of mine who works in rock radio. And I love talking to Derek about music because he provides the real world perspective that those of us who are terminally online don't have. and we somehow got talking about some 41 because he told me that he's going to Paris to see some 41. And I think maybe the band is flying him out or there's some sort of like band management thing because he's like a pretty big radio guy.

And I was like, wow, you're going to Paris to see some 41. This is a very unexpected development here. And I think I made a joke similar to what I did. Was this last week we were talking about some 41? possibly because I think it was within the scope of like TV on the radio reunion oasis reunion and by the way I really wish when you said my friend Derek I was hoping that you would like let it drag on and let people think it was Derek Wibley of some four years. Oh right no it wasn't Derek Wibley unfortunately but I made a joke about some 41 similar

to what I did on the show saying you know I don't really care about this. I don't really know anything they've done since the video for Fat Lip. And they just seem like a very early 2000s band to me. And then he informed me that the most recent Sum 41 record, which I believe is called Heaven and Hell, spawned a single called Landlines, which is like one of the biggest songs in rock radio in the past year. Like on his station, that's a huge song.

So apparently Sum 41, like they had the last. longest gap on the rock radio charts between number one songs. I don't know what their previous one was, but they had one in recent weeks or months with landlines. So I just want to issue an apology to Sum 41, because I know they're listening. I know it got out in the streets that I was speaking about them disrespectfully, and maybe they were hoping that I would correct the record. So that's what I'm doing right now. I apologize to Sum 41 for disrespecting them because apparently they're back on top right now. They're playing shows in Paris.

They're flying in rock radio people. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. And also, I looked up Heaven and Hell, which was released in March this year. It's got an 85 on Metacritic with five critics scores, mind you. Also, they're on RISE records,

so they're label meets with Pupp and Touchet Amori now. So another record I could have taken for the fantasy draft that would have done better than my dog shit picks. This is just another layer. This is Sum 41 getting back at me this week. This is Sum 41's revenge because not only do they have a number one song, they have a very well-reviewed record, apparently, that's much better than the records on any of my teams, really. So you win this round, Some-41.

We'll see what happens next. Let's do a quick sports cast because the NFL is back, baby. We're back. And today, or the day that this podcast posts, our teams are playing one another. The Packers, the Eagles, they're in Brazil for some reason. I don't know why we're going to Brazil. Is the NFL trying to set up teams in Brazil?

Is that the idea here? I mean, Mexico City, like, I've seen stories about just... That makes sense. Mexico City makes sense. But I've also seen just how impossible that really is, because I've seen it with baseball as well. Just because, like, the currency exchange is just so, like, can, like, you just can't do an NFL team. But Brazil, why not?

I mean, uh, I mean, the, the funniest thing about this happening right now is that anytime there is any international football game, particularly one outside, say, the UK, I'd always be interested to see how, you know, the population would tweet about it. But now we can't even see how Brazilian dudes will tweet about the NFL. It's apparently banned X the everything app formally known as Twitter is apparently banned in Brazil. So, yeah, we don't even get the pleasure of seeing, you know, what a random dude from South Paulo thinks about, like, Jordan Love

or whether the Eagles have, like, fumigated the bad vibes from last year. I'm just hoping that they have Suppletora perform the halftime show. Radamahada is possibly the best new metal song of all time. Wow. Yeah. Roots, man. What a fucking record. Sepulterra, man.

My buddy Mark back in high school loved the hell. a sepulterra. So much sepulterra in the truck back in the day. So how are you feeling about the Eagles right now? Because for me with the Packers, I'm feeling pretty good. We had a great second half of the season last year. Just gave Jordan Love a bunch of money. He didn't play much in the preseason, but he threw like a 65-yard touchdown. That was a pretty beautiful throw. So I'm feeling pretty good. This game, though, seems like a total wildcard to me. If you told me that the Packers win this game by three touchdowns, I'd believe you. If you tell me that we're going to lose by three touchdowns, I'd believe you. I do think that your coach is a buffoon, Nick Siriani,

like one of the biggest buffoons in the NFL. I don't really know why he's there because he's not a play caller. You've got, what's the defensive guy, that like 70-year-old dude, who's your defensive coordinator now? Vic Fangio. Vic Fangio. Yeah, Vic Fangio. Also start on the Sopranos, Vic Fangio. And then you got Kevin Moore as the OC, two very high-paid coordinators. And then he got Siriani here, who I guess it's just his job to give speeches, maybe? I don't know. But he seems like a total buffoon.

And I feel like if the Eagles don't do well this year, he's going to get fired and you're going to hire Bill Belichick. It just seems like that is written. In the stars. Yeah. I mean, this is like, I'm not feeling super good about it all. There's like no reason to believe. that the bad vibes are gone. I mean, they've, they've gotten some decent players, but there's

like a real, like, Vince Young dream team era Eagles feel to this. And, uh, I'm just not super stoked about it. I'm not convinced, like, about Jalen Hertz. I'm not convinced about Sequin Barkley. I have three fantasy teams and I hate them all, uh, already. My, I, the NFL is just not exciting to me right now. It's like, I was thinking about this, like, as we were doing, the outline how the how the NFL season now feels like a 1975 album rollout where it always feels like the rollout is happening like where does that end where's the actual thing begin and then there's just so much discourse that I've seen people talking about like hey maybe the maybe the Texans and the Lions are actually overrated this year like I just feel who's saying that oh I've seen it

in NFL previews you know our guy Bill Barnwell I think is casting doubt I mean I've read a billion fantasy previews, so I don't think the lions are overrated. Lions seem pretty damn good to me. I agree as well. And also, they're the Lions, so how much can you really trust it? Yeah, but then you're just talking about laundry at this point because, you know, it's a completely different infrastructure. They've got, you know, great coaches. They've got this great GM.

I don't know. I feel pretty good about the Lions. I'm saying this as the biggest rival to them in the NFC North this year. It's going to be Lions and Packers. in the north battling out for number one. I think the lions are going to take first, and we can hopefully get a wild card spot. I mean, I disagree with you completely.

I think this season is really exciting. You got all these young quarterbacks coming in. You know, another dude in, you know, my division in Chicago, with Caleb Williams. Kind of afraid of that guy, but I'm curious to see how he plays. You got Bo Nix in there, which I love, I love his name. Bo Nix is going to be good. Yeah.

A lot of storylines this year. I'm excited about it. But you've always been a college football guy. Like, are you locked in to college football already? I checked out the games last weekend. I saw USC beat LSU, which was kind of a shocker. Do you have any USC love being in Southern California? Like, are you intrigued by them?

Oh, absolutely not. Like USC, I actually went to a USC game once, and it was strange because it is a college team, but the vibe is very pro. They play in Olympic Stadium in downtown L.A. and it's not a real college football vibe. But yeah, I think the college football season, even though there's been like some, you know,

really important games, it hasn't completely felt like we've got things started yet. Now with the 12-team playoff, it's not like, oh, if this team loses in week one, their season is over. Although I do like the fact that Clemson and Florida State or like number one and two on fraud watch list. This will give, this gives me hope that maybe the ACC will just like say,

fuck it, we're done here because Virginia and Cal is a, that's a conference game now. This shit makes no sense. Just break it up. Let Virginia play against like Tulane and Duke and all these other fancy boys southern schools. I just hope that we get like a real soccer type dynamic with college football where you have like the Premier League. and then you get to like root for the second third divisions as it should be because I think we're going to see a lot of disparity. It's going to look more like the NFL. I'm not college locked in yet, but Texas, Michigan, that's going to be fun as fuck. Yeah, I don't know. I'm into college football.

I'm enjoying it. It is funny to me that the biggest sports in America now, NFL obviously number one, and college football seems like it's number two. Like you were looking like these games they had last weekend, The ratings for those were like as good as the NBA finals. And this is like week one of college football. Like what are those numbers going to be like when these games actually are consequential at the end of the season? I mean, like the NBA finals is the floor for college football. So I think it's clearly the second biggest sport right now in America. And then the NFL is just like way ahead of everybody else.

But we love football in America. Nothing more American than football, I think. for better or worse. It's a metaphor. Love American football and American football. That's it. I've never made that joke before. Yeah.

Won't be the last time. Let's do a quick fantasy update just because I'm feeling too good about myself and I need to be depressed for a second. I have to say that this is an instance this week where I'm glad Uprocks isn't on Metacritic because the album out this week, obviously Manning Fireworks by M.J. Lenderman.

We're going to talk about that in a minute. You drafted M.J. Lenderman. That was your first round pick because you wanted to hurt me. And you did. Currently has an 87 on Metacritic. If I had been on Metacritic, that might have been sniffing 90. Because I was very, I wrote about that this week. It was very effusive in my review.

Looking at Metacritic, something called The Skinny. is included in the roundup. I looked that up. It's apparently a music publication in Scotland. Have you ever heard of the Skinny before? I think I've seen it just in passing. I imagine that Los Campesinos is going to be their number one album of the year. But you know what?

Shout to the Skinny. I mean, anything that's like boosting the numbers, man. It's like the Billy Voleck shit. It doesn't matter if it's during the first quarter or Garber. time. The points are points. So, I know we have this issue on my team with the Raichi Sakamoto. Like, apparently it's a film soundtrack and the film is being reviewed, but not the soundtrack.

I don't even know if it's like worth doing anything with that at this point. I mean, should I just forfeit? I'm not even close because, how much do you have it right now? You have 341 total? I have 341 total and I've got Nila Furiania left to go and you know she feels like a pretty safe bet to be like in mid 80s. Whereas you've got a to be determined and Sophie with a 237. So to put things in perspective, I did a little bit of math. If you pick two brat level performers, which has like a 95 right now or like a Leo Wadatta Smith, which is the number one score of all time,

I'd still win with an 86. So we could either do like a supplemental draft where you can replace Ryuchi Sakamoto or we can do what I think they're doing in college football now, whereas if like the score, if like one team is up by a certain amount, you just play with a running clock for the second half just to like, I don't know, put an end to the misery. So I'll leave it up to you. You choose your means of pain. I'll think about it for another week.

I don't even want to contemplate this right now. I don't want to look and try to draft something else. I'm like the Carolina Panthers right now. I have no, there's nothing I can do here that seems like it's the right thing. So I'll just take another week and ponder it. I want to maintain my good mood here because there is a new MJ Lenderman album out this week called Manning Fireworks. And we're going to talk about it right here. Like I said, I wrote a big column about it this week.

And look, this is my favorite album. of the year. I said it in like the second sentence of my column. I'm not going to beat around the bush. I feel like it was probably pretty obvious that this was going to be my favorite album of the year given that boat songs, the previous studio record from MJ Lenderman was my favorite album of 2022. And the live record he put out last year with the wind, live and loose. That was my favorite album of 2023. So M.J. Lenderman, you're pulling off a three-peat. You're dominating the 2020s for me personally. And I just love this record.

My column, I talked about the album. I also went deep into his career, charting his evolution. And I don't know how deep you go into his catalog. Ian, I know that you got on board with both songs, as most people did, as I did. But it is interesting looking at how he has evolved over the past five years because, you know, he's a young guy, he's 25 years old, put out his first record in 20, a self-titled album. And you listen to that record.

And it is such a typical singer-songwriter record by a guy who clearly loves Jason Molina in his writing songs in that vein. And it's pretty unexceptional, I think. There's some songs on there that I like. But for the most part, it sounds like a guy who is writing his first kind of early songs. It doesn't have it quite figured out. And then he puts out a record called Ghost of Your Guitar Solo, which is much different than the first record. Short songs, you're starting to see some of the sports references trickle in that we all associate with MJ Lenderman. And then both songs, he just nails the aesthetic.

And he arrives, just takes a quantum leap from what he's done before. And then with this record, it's interesting because, you know, the dudes rock. thing has come up with him. You know, people talk a dudes rock. They call him a dudes rock artist. And he addressed that in an interview that he did with the Guardian, really trying to distance himself from that. And on this record, you know, there aren't any references to athletes.

There's no Michael Jordan or Dan Marino shoutouts. And I wonder if in part he's reacting to some of that online discourse wanting to get away from it. I mean, I wrote about the dudes rock thing in my column. I could have written like 3,000 words on it. Because I do think the dudes rock phenomenon is fascinating to me. I don't want to get too sidetracked on this. But to me, that always gets brought up in like a semi-ironic kind of way.

Like when guys say dudes rock, in my experience, like they aren't being totally serious when they say that. Because there is something about being a guy in the modern world that's very confusing and kind of alienating. that if you embrace guy stuff as a guy, it just feels a little silly. Even if it's something that you're drawn to, whether it's, you know, talking about football or you're eating at Buffalo Wild Wings or whatever. Like, these things are pleasurable to do,

but there's also something kind of silly about it at the same time. And one of the brilliant things I think about this record, I think MJ Lenderman, like, writes about that phenomenon as well as anyone right now. The characters on this record, many of them are these sort of delusional guys who aren't really aware of the facades that they're putting up to the world that are supposed to conceal how broken they are. And he writes about it in a way that it reminds me of Warren Zivon. I think he was the master of that of writing about characters and not judging them, but also not excusing them.

It's more like he's putting you in their headspace for a few minutes, like a great short storywriter. would do. And I just think he's such a great writer. This record to me, I think I like it as much as both songs, but it's a very different kind of record. I think both songs to me is like an indie rock version of an alt country record, whereas this album is just an alt country record. You know, it just sounds bigger. It sounds, I think, more accessible. Like it feels like a record that like the 60-year-old uncle in your life who loves Wilco. If he didn't get on board with both songs, he will get on board after hearing she's leaving you or wristwatch.

And for that reason, I feel like MJ Lenderman, who is still in the band Wednesday, and Wednesday, of course, being another band that I love and just a great band. And I have to correct myself because actually, I think I put Ratsaw God, the last Wednesday record as my number one album of 2023. I think M.J. Lederman was like right below that. So he doesn't have the trifecta, but he's close to the trifecta. And he kind of does because he's in Wednesday. But anyway, I kind of feel like M.J. Letterman is in the process of probably surpassing Wednesday in terms of popularity.

Just because I think like 20-year-olds will love this guy. And I also think like your 60-year-old uncle will like this guy. As far as like this kind of music goes, like singer-songwriter, all-country-ish type rock, MJ Linderman is the best. Like he is number one in the power rankings and this album confirms it. So that's my monologue about this record. I want to hear what you have to say.

I know you're not as high on this record as I am, but I think you still like it. Yeah, I do like it a lot. And I think with regards to dudes rock, I've heard it also defined. And I've written about this with Japan droids in the past as non-toxic masculinity. It's like kind of not an ironic, but like a self-aware embrace of things like, you know, football or beer, like remembering some guys.

It's like these are pleasurable things and not inherently bad in themselves. But I think it's like enjoying those things and also acknowledging that they're kind of dumb. Yeah, exactly. Because like the toxic masculinity might be like you're super into football and you're just like an agro guy who's a jerk. And that would be maybe the opposite of dudes rock or like the bad version of dudes rock. Yeah, it's like when enjoying that stuff comes at somebody else's expense. But, you know, you mentioned Warren Zivon and this record brought, like, it brought to mine a tweet I saw recently where it said like there are two types of Warren Zvon songs. Like the first is like the coolest guy ever is someone that completely made up or the other one is, are one of you women going to kill me or do I have to do it myself?

and, you know, M.J. Lenderman's album reminds me kind of the first category, except it's like the biggest dirtbag loser ever as a guy I just completely made up. And I like how this song, this album, like you said, puts you in the mindset of these people for two or three minutes at a time. It's not quite as, you know, character sketch or like scene setting as like a Wednesday song. It's just you get to think, you get to see like how these people are thinking and just the kind of pathetic. delusional way these people go about their lives. And in a way that's like, you know, not judgmental, but like not letting them off the hook either. And like you said, there aren't as many sports, there I don't think there are any sports references on this album. You know, there's no Dan Marino.

There's no flu game or hangover game. And, you know, it made it less immediate to me. When I was listening to this record for the first couple of times, like there are a couple of lines that would stand out to me like the one of the first line in rip torn or you know rhyming DIY or kalua shooter with DIY scooter and I didn't quite figure I couldn't quite grasp like how they all fit together but you know now that I've listened to this album let it kind of absorbed it it's clear that like you were saying MJ Lenderman's on his own plane I mean kind of rootsy singer songwritery alt country albums to me feel like a dime a dozen these days like I'm either hearing that or heavy shoegaze in my promo pile.

And when something like clearly stand out happens in that genre, it elevates it even that much more. And so, you know, I don't know if any song hits me quite like Dan Marino or your every girl to me, but I do agree that this is a stronger presentation of his own artistry than both songs. I mean, both songs was a little top heavy in terms of like the best songs were like really good. And then there were other songs that I didn't love as much. but this one feels more consistent. It's just an album that's easy to love.

I can't, I think we'll see people, I think we've already have seen people strain to find fault. It not, maybe not even an MJ Lenderman, but in the way people like him. But I think that's just going to fall by the wayside is this album Picks out and people start to hear it. Also, we got to mention the Wild Pink MJ Lenderman tour. Oh my God.

God. God bless it. I also love the fact that it's coming to Lexington, Kentucky and playing at a 150 cap bar called the Green Lantern. I mean, I haven't been to Lexington in this 2017 when I moved San Diego. But fuck, man. Like, I don't know. Maybe this March I do a little birthday trip. Reunite with the gang. See ya, MJ, and Wild Pink at this. It's like literally a bar. Yeah, that'd be amazing. He's also touring with a great artist named Ryan Davis. That's like on the first part of this tour. That's the one that I'm going to be saying. I think that must be starting later this month because it's hidden my area in October. Just go back to something you were saying before about, I think you were saying,

oh, it didn't like totally kind of knock me out all that much the first couple listens. I do think Lenderman is the kind of artist. And to compare him to another great American singer-songwriter, reminds me of Tom Petty in this regard where I feel like a lot of his songs are designed to really sink in by the 70th time you hear it. You know, like you can hear a song of his, and you can just enjoy it because the songs are catchy. He's a great guitar player, so there's always going to be like one great guitar solo on every song.

But then like the 70th time, there'll be like a line that hits you in a way it didn't hit you before. And it just adds a whole other level of enjoyment to the, the music. I mean, that kind of songwriting to me is so weird and magical. Like the way, it's like a magic trick and you can pull stuff off like that, but I think it really works on this record.

I don't know. I always have to check myself with MJ Linderman because I do feel like like, this isn't a perfect record, but it's like perfect for me. Like, this is what I am looking for. Like, he is the complete package. as far as I'm concerned. And great songwriter, he seems to have a very grounded point of view. And he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. I do worry about like,

is the world going to destroy this guy if he ends up becoming too popular? Is there going to be like some like hangar on that gets into his inner circle and gets involved in terrible things? It's like the paternal side comes out with me with MJ Lenderman. I do not want the world to ruin this guy because I think there's something really pure about what he's doing. He continues to get better. I just think he's great. And I think he has a real shot at being a defining artist of this decade in this space of singer, songwriter, all countryish rock. Yeah, I think it's also interesting that, you know, you talk about like how a record's not perfect, but it's perfect for me.

And this is exactly how I felt about the Los Campesinos album, where if like, if it gave me long enough, I'm like, yeah, I can name a few things. things I can nitpick, but it's like, and also another band that loves to talk about sports. So sports, man. Yep. The intersection of sports and music. No one else is in that area except for indie cast. Well, exactly. Tucking a sports cast into an indie cast, I mean, that's what M.J. Lenderman does.

That's what we do. So it's why I probably respond so strongly to his songs. Okay, so moving on from M.J. Lenderman, I wanted to talk to you for a minute about something. I don't know if you have any frame of reference on this, Ian, at all. So that makes me want to talk to you about it. I saw King Gizzard in the Lizard Wizard for the first time this week. They came to Minneapolis. I saw him at a venue called the Armory, which I think is about like a 6,000 capacity room.

It's kind of between like a club and an arena, basically. basically. And I saw a vampire weekend there last month. I'm going to go see Goose later this month. I'm actually right about King Gizzard and Goose in the same column because I want to see if I can create a jam band rivalry. There's definitely been one percolating for a while here. But it was fascinating seeing this band live because it really did confirm what I've been feeling and I think what a lot of people have been feeling for at least a few years, which is that this is one of the biggest bands, I think, in indie rock right now, one of the biggest rock bands, I think, inarguably.

Certainly from like a live perspective, there's no contest. And I wonder if they actually have a shot at being not a complete mainstream rock band, but more of like a mainstream rock live attraction. Because, you know, this is a band that we look at. And I think if you don't know anything about this band, or you don't know much about this band. You're probably aware that they're from Australia and that they're kind of associated with the jam world, but more in terms of like how they're followed by their fan base than the music. Because the music, I mean, the music is all over the map, but their default setting is this

sort of like revved up punky, sometimes even metal sounding music. It's just that they'll go off for 20 minutes, like on a like just furiously paste punk rock metal sounding type song. So you know that about the band. You know that they're kind of like an eccentric band. But their ability to keep building on their fan base. Because they've been around for about 15 years at this point. But certainly here in America,

you can really see a pretty steep rise in their trajectory post-COVID. Like I know here in Minneapolis they played the Palace Theater a few years ago. which is like 2,500 people. And I'm trying to think if they did two shows there. They might have done two. But now they're playing, you know, a room twice the size of that. And they're doing that all over the country in these sort of six to eight thousand person arenas.

And it's interesting to be watching the show because I have to say like the first hour, because it was like a two and a half hour show. The first hour I was a little, I wasn't as into it. And that's when they were doing more of that sort of, again, kind of garagey punk metal thing. And then they went into this sequence in the show where they were playing electronic music. Because they put out an electronic record last year called the Silver Chord. And on the cover, they're kind of dressed like craftwork. And it's kind of craftworky on the record.

And that section I really liked. The electronic stuff I thought was really cool. And I felt like it was a little bit more dynamic than like the 20-minute punk music. metal song. But without question, this is one of the most adventurous bands going right now. And I think conceptually, they're definitely the most interesting. Musically, I think for me, they can be a little hit or miss. There's some guises of theirs that I like more than others.

But again, just witnessing the show and seeing the audience respond to them, it did make me think, like, is there a world where like a turnstile fan could be into this band because like people go to the show it's not like a jam band show because people are moshing at these shows and there's actually like a if you look at like live footage of their crowds it does look like at times like a hardcore type crowd because people are just going nuts in the audience there's actually a message on the screen before they come on stage about moshing and like you know make sure you take care of the person next to you and all that kind of thing so just their ability to combine like the sort of obsessiveness of a jam band following with the aggression of like maybe someone who's

more into punk. I really wonder if they could bridge that world. I mean, in a way, I think they're probably already doing it. But I'm just curious for you. Like, do you have any take or any feel on this band at all? Because we talked about them a little bit, but like not much, I don't think. Yeah, I mean, just because they put out albums every two months, like we talk about them in bits and pieces. But as far as like can this band, you know, pull in a turnover or turnover, a turnstile type fan, which, I mean, I think King Gizzard is way bigger.

But I remember seeing a footage at a King Gizzard show. And we kind of briefly talked about talking about this thing a few weeks ago. But at hardcore shows or metal shows, there's this thing where the audience does where they sit down and they act like they're rowing a Viking ship. Right. seen yeah that i saw that happen at a king gizzard show um it is one of the weirdest wildest things that i could imagine happening at a rock concert but um yeah i think the king gizzard you know umbrella is just ever ever widening and i don't think there's any fan base that would not be absorbed by it and i see them just you know as people start to i don't want to say take them seriously but just kind of get the

sense of how big they are. That stuff tends to build on itself where, you know, you see the New York Times and the New York article about how they've, you know, grown their fan base and, you know, the obsessives. And that just kind of builds on itself. And, you know, you see people obsessing over something, you want to be a part of it. And yeah, I mean, I know they're huge. Like, I know they're fucking enormous. And, you know, I don't, in my personal life, I don't know if I have, like Gizzard obsessive so much as the Gizzard curious. But yeah, the records are interesting. Like for me, you know, with regards to jam bands, I like records.

You know, I know you've mentioned before the Havking Gizzards really about the journey more so than the destination. But yeah, I just, I'm really, really, really curious about where things go from here with this band. Like whether, you know, they start their own festival, like, you know, the new bond. is something that King Gizzard starts or, you know, whether they're playing stadiums or, you know, whether they have that one record where people just say, okay, this has got to be on our year end list. You know what I mean? Really, all possibilities are on the table for this man, which is really exciting to see because when I think about King Gizzard, it just reminds me of like how I don't know shit about shit with what gets popular or what lasts or what doesn't. Because you're saying, they've been around for 15 years. And, you know, they're probably the biggest touring band, if not like, you know, one of the biggest touring bands in existence. And given where trends have gone or where you think they're going,

like it doesn't include, it doesn't conceive of a band like King Gizzard and the Wizard Lizard being as big as they are. Yeah, I mean, it is a little weird. I was thinking about this as I was watching the show that this band is so big because they are not. in any way conventional, they're not really a band that you would look at and say, oh, this is like an easy band to sell people on. I mean, they have, I think, 26 records,

and there's dense, like, mythology embedded into those albums. I mean, this is not a band necessarily that has, like, a lot of easy entry points. So to see them playing for that large of a crowd, I mean, I thought it was pretty cool, even when I wasn't totally responding to the music, just because they are such an adventurous, band. One thing that occurred to me watching them, and this goes to your point about them starting their own festival, because I think that totally makes sense. And I think one thing about them

that maybe explains their popularity is that they are a connective tissue between like a lot of different kinds of festivals where, you know, because you've got like punk festivals. Obviously you have like jam band type festivals. You also have like electronic music type festivals. Like, they're, they kind of play every sort of music that people like to listen to in a big field. You know, like, that's maybe their genre overall. They play big field type music. And maybe they're the first band to figure out that it's not so much about the genre you play. And it's just that people connect music to like a setting or like going to a festival.

And this is a band that could play any kind of festival. like that, or they can have their own festival and have electronic acts and punk acts and jam bands and you can have different stages for different tribes and it would all kind of fit together and you would just have a big tent that all these people can get under. It seems like that's the kind of thing that they're building at these shows. I mean, because again, I really think it's about the live show with them more than the albums. Like, I like some of their albums more than others. There are records of theirs that I've enjoyed quite a bit, but I think the live show, as it is with jam bands, really, that's the number one thing. So I think seeing them live,

it was like a different perspective on them than I got just listening to their recorded output. Yeah, and also just get, I hate to bring it back to the dudes rock thing, but it's just something to obsess over in a way, like kind of like fantasy football or like, you know, television shows where there's like lore and there's rewards for depths of, knowledge and depth of engagement. You can, like, lose yourself entirely in the Gizzard verse. Yeah, exactly. And many people have, as I saw at that show the other night.

Let's get to our mailbag segment. Thank you all for writing in. This week we have some really good emails here. I think we can get to both of them this week. Ian, why don't you read our first one? All right. So, hi, Stephen Ian. I have a question combining sportscast with Indycast.

You can't combine. they are one and the same. Yes. People who follow sports love to argue on podcast, especially what the worst contracts given to professional athletes are. Typically, Bobby Bonilla wins. That's the infamous one where Bobby Bonilla gets paid, I believe, a million dollars every year in a certain day due to the, you know, the vicissitudes of the contract he signed way back in the day. Many years ago, I remember Zizi Top already. I love this question.

Signing a new contract with RCA coming off the huge. success of Eliminator and the OK success of Afterburner. They were signed to RCA for 30 mil, and memory hole would be a very generous description of what became of their next five albums. Even more suspect was that for the money, they also didn't get the rights to classic ZZ Top albums of Yore. So what are some of the worst music company signs you could think of? David from Barry, Ontario.

Man, David dropping the ZZ Top contract knowledge. I had no idea. I'd never heard that story. None. I've never heard it in my life. I got to say RCA, giving Zizi Top $30 million after After Burner makes that super suspect. Because if it was After Eliminator, you know, which is their big MTV record, give me all your love in, Sharp Dress Man, all those songs. I'd understand it because they had this huge success.

But then they put out After Burner and you're like, are MTV, are they still going to be interested in Zizi Top at this point? I feel like they could have predicted that they were going to go downhill. So anyway, hats off to ZZ-Z-Top or Beards Off the Z-Z-Top for that. I mean, the contract that came immediately to mind for this, and I feel bad saying this because it's one of my favorite bands of all time, but it was REM getting $80 million. And I think was that before New Adventures in Hi-Fi?

Yeah, it was right before New Adventures. Like when I looked it up and while they signed it, it was during, I believe, the New Adventures rollout. Okay. And of course, REM never really had any significant commercial success after New Adventures in High Five. I mean, New Adventures was like the beginning of their decline, really, as a commercial band. So that came immediately to mind as a bad contract, a bad contract for the record label. A great contract for REM. I mean, we should define, I mean, because we're really defining it just based on the record label.

Because there's so many bad contracts going the other way, like where artists get screwed. So to me, I look at that as a great contract because I'm glad REM got paid. Like, good for them. A million signing bonus. Who cares about Warner Brothers? I like that REM got paid, so good for them. But defining it as we are by, like, artists who got a lot of money from a record, like a bad deal for the label. basically. I actually looked this up as a Wikipedia page of the biggest contracts ever in music.

Number one is Jay-Z in 2008 got $150 million from Live Nation. So I assume that's a 360 deal for records and live shows. Yeah, I can only guess, man. Yeah. Because I mean, shit. I mean, the thing is, though, like 2009, that's like when Blueprint 3 came out in that fucking New York song, which one of my least favorite songs of all time. But yeah, I imagine it's not just for the albums, you know, because it's got Rockefeller records. Yeah, it's Live Nation. So, yeah, it must be a 360.

I mean, if you look at the biggest deals ever, the consistent thing is that artists get paid based on past performance, not on future performance. Like, they're getting these huge deals because they've sold records in the past. And a lot of times it comes similar to the REM thing, like after they've passed their commercial peak. Like in 2007, Live Nation gave Madonna $120 million.

I don't know what Madonna did in terms of records after 2007, but I feel like, I mean, because she had a long peak. She had like a good 20 years, like where she was creating hits. But 2007, I think that's like a little bit after she did that American Pie cover. Do you remember that? Oh, hell yeah. And she had the eye patch going. going in the beret. There was like a rap. There was like a little rap in that song, if I'm not mistaken.

Right. I take a double chatee, I believe, is one line. I can't remember what that rhymes with. I just remember her saying. Probably latte, right? Right, it's got to be. Like Whitney Houston got $100 million in 2001. That's probably not a great deal for Aresda Records. I don't feel like she had hits, really, in the aughts. I could be mistaken, but I feel like, you know, great in the 80s. In the 90s, she has the bodyguard soundtrack. And then in the odds, that's where things start to go sideways with her and Bobby Brown.

Robbie Williams got $125 million in 2002 from EMI. I have no, I don't know what, I mean, obviously that's based on his British chart performance. I have no idea what Robbie Williams was doing after that. probably spending a lot of money in his villa. I mean, that's what I would imagine. But yeah, it's a, I mean, you bring up a good point where it's like, I think you've named just about like the only contracts in music industry history where like the artist might have gotten the better end of the deal, you know?

Otherwise, 99.99% of like the worst, like the worst signings are ones where the artist gets fucked over. I mean, unless you carve out that time. in like the early 90s where you would hear about helmet getting like a million dollar advance for meantime or you know boredoms or melvins getting record contracts to sign nothing like they're going to sell alms that like they're going to make alms to sell next to nothing but like every label wanted kirk cobane or the next kirk cobane to think they're cool but when i you know i kind of went in a different direction when it came to like worst signings because you know as a child of the 80s and 90s want someone who bought rap albums for 18 bucks for no reason at all. I'm just thinking of like

when rappers signed to like the hot label and it's just like the worst fit imaginable. Obviously Snoop Dogs the game is to be sold not to be told on no limit or like the G unit mob deep album. But I also want to mention like this is just a little piece of lore. I met this guy who had a lawyer friend in New Orleans who apparently 90% of his business is super. doing cash money records and getting settlements. And so the real, I don't know how true that is, but it does make sense. I mean, like, when you say like the worst contracts, anything you sign with cash money records, like that, that is, that, that's it right there.

But, yeah, we could do like an entire, like an entire series on just like the shadiest ass rap, rap contract sign because you'll find out like public enemy. is owed like a hundred million dollars from like universal or like big shawns coming out of pocket for several million just to do like accounting for uh you know for uh good music so you know shout to a i'm for getting money shout to like 30 million for zz top i would have been shocked if it was like a fraction if they got like five mil because like we're talking about like what 1986 yeah yeah i don't know that's is that like 30 million in like 80s money because god damn Damn, man.

Shout to Zizi top. Well, I was looking at this list. In 1995, Metallica signed with or re-signed with Electra for $60 million. Is that a bargain for Electra? I guess I don't know how, because they did load and reload after that. I mean, those albums sold a ton still. Yes. I mean, fuck, I bought them.

Yeah, I mean. Because in a way, that's them signing that deal out. Because, you know, they've never did anything as successful as the Black album. But, like, they still did big numbers. I mean, because that's like the year before REM got 80 million. Yeah. So in comparison, that feels like, oh, Metallica, you could have gotten more money. Yeah, they signed a team-friendly deal, you know, so that they wouldn't bust a salary cap, you know.

I mean, back then, that wouldn't have been a 360 deal. I don't think they were doing that in the 90s. So they were still making a boatload of money. I mean Metallica. I mean, we're not going to worry about them making any money here. But yeah, I don't know. Still a bargain there for Metallica. Let's get to our next letter. I'll read this one. Hi, Stephen and Ian, long-time listener and a big fan of the hashtag you both do. With Christopher Owens releasing new music, I'm again reminded of the band girls that burned briefly and bright.

Two-part question. Girls, yay or nay? and does any artist or man have a better pitchfork average than girls? Because they're breaking down here a little bit on the email here. But apparently Girls has two albums in an EP and it was 9.3, 9.1 and 8.7. So that's an average of just over 9. That seems like a pretty lofty average and I'm not sure if any other act is close to a 9.0 average. Keep hashing out those trends. Jimmy from South Minneapolis.

Is that a guy in a hold steady? Is that a guy in a hold steady song? I mean, that's- Jimmy from South Minneapolis, went to the Acropolis. I don't know. I'm sorry, man. That sounds like more of a mountain goats lyric.

Yeah. I'm sorry, Craig Finn, if you're out there, it's terrible, terrible. Yeah, but yeah, girls, yeah, or nay. That sounds like that. And we'll be talking about this. dare probably next week for any people who are interested. I believe they had a song called Girls. But yeah, so I mean, I was there for Girls Mania at Pitchfork and yeah, they they fucking

love that band. Let me tell you. Actually, a couple people love that band, you know, people who are higher up. So, you know, it's yay or nay. I'm going to go yay on album. I mean, it's not like a 9-1 yay, but like I'm just yay on how stuff worked back in 2009 where you know we should say we should say quick that album is the name of their first album correct just to be clear because you said yay on album people who don't know girls might be a little confused by that but anyway keep going yeah and also girls is the name of the band like we not to be confused with women uh who you know we did a Cindy lee thing before but yeah different thing um yeah I mean it's not that good but it's also like indicative of a time where if you just got a hype ban you you just got a hype ban you

yeah, you're going to throw a 9-1 on it. So I'm in favor of like irresponsible hype in that regard. Hellhole Rat Race, great song, lust for life, great song. Some of the songs are exactly the same as other songs on that. I think Ghost Mouth is the exact same song as Hell Whole Rat Race. Nevertheless, love that. I liked Carolina. That was on the EP that was mentioned.

A good song there. But after that, I think what was the next album? like father's son holy ghost in 2011 i remember hating that album like it was one of those things we've talked about before um on this where you like an artist and like they don't really do anything different that drastically on and out but like you just turn on them it's like i i felt that way about and i know you might disagree with this like kurt viles believe i'm going down um it just struck me as a as i'm gonna it strikes me as like a kind of a kings a leon sort of album where it needed to either be like 25% less dumb or 100% way dumber.

It just stood in this kind of middle path of being, like wanting to be like a big rock record, but like also an indie record, but also like it wanted to be like Jonathan Richmond, but also wanted to be like Pink Floyd. And yeah, I just didn't think it really connected. And I think that bore out and how they've been perceived in the time since. this is a it's not a totally memory hold band because you know we got guys like jimmy from south minneapolis writing us emails about them but they are certainly of a time of a place i think mac de marco came along and usurped like what chris owens was trying to be um yeah i i can listen to album on a

purely nostalgic level but um that only happens like once a year once every other year i'm curious what you think about them i'm gonna go nay on on girls i was never a big fan. I saw them live on a bill with dumb dumb girls. I don't know if it was like all girls bands, but I did like dumb, were Vivian girls on there as well, you know? No, I think it was just dumb, dumb girls and girls. Okay. But I was a nay on them. And look, at the time, I'm sure I was reacting to the hype that they were getting. I remember there were a lot of narratives about Christopher Owens. I think he grew up in a cult. Yeah. Some kind of religious that, so that was a big part of their whole story and it just seemed like they were very overrated to me so that probably

upped my hostility toward them from being just sort of me on them to feeling like this is actually annoying me that they're getting all these good reviews which isn't fair to the band i mean that again we've talked about this many times on the show you have to check yourself very often in these modern times that you aren't reacting against the discourse of a band more than the band itself because I think that happens a lot with artists. It's a very easy trap to fall into and I probably did that with girls.

But yeah, I wasn't a big fan. You know, I was thinking about the second part of this question whether anyone's had a higher average and I don't know the answer to that but the response from pitchfork specifically to girls reminds me of pitchfork's specific reaction to Ice Age which is a band we've made fun of many times on this show. And I feel like Pitchfork fucking loves Ice Age.

If you look at their scores, I think it's not as high as girls, but they have something like four best new musics or five. Yeah, they've never not gotten it from 2011 on. And I feel like that's very specific to Pitchfork. Girls, to me, felt more universally acclaimed. And there's other people that like Ice Age, but Pitchfork really drove.

the Ice Age love for a while. And, you know, again, there's a part of me that's annoyed by that because I think they don't deserve all of that praise. I think they're overrated by Pitchfork specifically. But there is another part of me that does appreciate a cultish indie band getting that consistent of praise from an outlet like Pitchfork because it suggests a level of authorship and like sort of personal stamp. that you don't often get these days.

I think, you know, music publications and sites in general, they don't have the same feeling of like an individual person or maybe two or three individual people who are deciding that they love this thing and they don't care what anyone else says. It feels much more committee-driven now than it did maybe 10 or 15 years ago. And again, there's pitfalls to that because, you know, these are two bands I think that were over-praised. but I also have some nostalgia for that

that more personal stamp or more personal driven love of bands at big websites and publications which I don't think we get anymore I don't think you see that And we did with Cindy Lee and look what look how people responded

people love that shit so I don't know how that I don't really know how it could work because you know you also have to consider the fact that like when the hype was happening and you know I'm thinking about this as I'm writing a 20 year anniversary piece on Arcade Fire's Funeral

it's like you don't like you see you get the hype before you hear the record and that kind of helps guide you and it's kind of impossible to do that sort of stuff now not totally out of the question but I think people do miss it like even if you don't miss like

specifically girls album you know featuring songs such as Big Bad Me Motherfucker you might If you like girls, you probably miss the way music was discussed back then, which for all of its problems, it's still, in some ways, you've got to think of it as being not superior, but just like kind of, I don't know, nice compared to the way things are now. I think in the micro, it was often bad because it led to bad decisions. But I think in the macro, it feels appealing, especially in retrospect. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call a Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? All right. So a band that I wrote about like in pre-pandemic 2020, like that two months where we thought 2020 was going to be quasi-normal tattoo. Feels like a lifetime ago. They were sort of in that, I guess, the extended Glass Beach universe. You know, it was trans, fifth wave emo bands that, you know, made expansive, really overstuffed songs.

And I figured, because I hadn't really heard much from them in the time since, that they'd broken up or gone on hiatus like a lot of bands from that roman i loved in 2020 and lo and behold they are back this week with their new 78 minute album called the circus egotistica or how i spent most of my life as a lost cause um if you want to get a just a glimpse of what you're getting into the final song is seven minutes long and it's called just don't say goodbye i hate goodbyes she burn herself in an open field off SR 202. Everyone stood quietly and watched the fireworks. Awesome shit.

Yeah, it's going to take me a while to get to the bottom of this album. It's very expansive. A lot of instruments. There's Glock and Spiel's accordions. There's a real kind of like lo-fi, misty production that makes it sound of a piece of the Pacific Northwest. And I mean, it's just awesome to see a band go for it with such kind of low stakes because there's really not a huge budget going on. It's just a lot of fun, a lot of creativity going into it. And I can't wait to spend more time with it. All right. So as far as my musical recommendation,

well, it's MJ Lenderman Manning Fireworks. We've already talked about that. I also have spent a lot of time in the past few weeks listening to this enormous new Neil Young box set that's out today that I wrote about and I think it's going up on uprocks today. It's called Archives Volume 3, and it covers Neil's career from 76 to 87, which is a very weird time in his career. And this box set, I think, does a good job of digging into sort of the shadow career of that time. There's like lost albums on that box set.

There's a lot of outtakes. There's nine movies on there. Actually, no, there's 11 movies on there. Mostly concert movies, but there's things like Human Highway, the movie he made with Devo. Russ Never Sleeps is on there. Just some really weird stuff. And I wrote a listening guide to it that you'll want to check out. That's a cool release.

I also want to talk about a book written by Franz Nicolai of the Holdstead. It's coming out on Tuesday. It's called Band People. And this is a work of music journalism by Franz. He went out and he interviewed a bunch of musicians. And it's not the typical kind of musicians that you read about in books. These people aren't stars. These are the people who are working as support musicians on tours,

or they're working as session musicians, or they're working other sort of behind-the-scenes type musical jobs. And he really kind of digs into what that kind of lifestyle is like. And it's a fascinating book. And again, it's a side of the music world that most of us as fans don't really ever hear about. So I think it's very worthy and, interesting book in that regard. I should also say too, like the previous book that Franz wrote, it was a novel. It's called Someone Should Pay for Your Pain. And in a way, it's like similar subject

matter. It's about this struggling middle-aged singer-songwriter, you know, trying to continue to tour around the road. And the only difference is that it's a work of fiction. But that's a really good book, too. One of the better rock novels, I think, that I've ever read. So definitely check out band people. If you can't wait for that to come out on Tuesday, get the novel. That's very good, too. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.