Indiecast - Modest Mouse + The Shins

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Next week, Modest Mose is releasing The Golden Casket, their first new music since 2015’s Strangers To Ourselves . We recently got Isaac Brock to review every Modest Mouse album, including their latest, and now it’s time for Steve and Ian to give their takes on the band’s first release for the better part of a decade.In addition to new music, Steve and Ian are also reflecting on the catalogue and career of one of the brightest lights in the indie rock scene of the aughts: The Shins. The band recently celebrated twenty years of Oh, Inverted World with a newly remastered version of the album, considered to be one of the definitive touchstones of the indie rock canon. How does it hold up two decades after its initial release?In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Steve is excited about the return of Gang Of Youths with the new single “The Angel Of 8th Ave.” Ian is digging Megabear, the new album from UK outfit Me Rex.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we'll be discussing a new album by Modest Mouse and a classic album by The Shins. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

All right, so I'm going to have to begin by preemptively apologizing to our loyal fans who have come to expect a sort of. certain bit in this part of the episode. I've just not made a lot of progress on billions in the past week. Oh, man. Really? Why? Well, I'll tell you because I do have a good excuse. So, you know, I've not seen our streaming numbers. I don't know the demographics, but, you know, just kind of based on our mailbag, I'm assuming that per capita, California is not one of our stronger markets. but I just so they're out surfing they're out like cruising in convertibles and listening to happy music and so forth yeah all my knowledge of the of California is from beach boy songs so uh very ignorant of California apparently yeah so on Tuesday um the 15th they instituted more or less say hey let's all get back to normal law like you know you can go to the gym without a mask anymore uh Padre's games are full capacity and I guess like one of the biggest indicators of how

if not back to normal we're like in the kind of well let's just throw our hands up we're going to get back to normal regardless mindset that's being taken is that I don't know if you've seen this week just how many bands are playing these just ridiculously stacked shows like everyone is just taking advantage of the opportunity

where everyone's got a little more money to spend and they will do whatever to go to a show. And so, I mean, I'm just, like, so shocked at how compressed this fall is going to be that I've already gone from, like, I mean, do you remember, like, I don't know, it would have been like six months ago or even like three months ago where it could have been, like, I don't care if it's rush hour traffic in L.A. on a Tuesday. Like, I will pay $100 to see idols with Ice Age opening.

Like, I just need live music that. badly. Exactly. Yeah. I'll go see, you know, Nickelback cover Robin Thicks, Paul. That actually sounds. I would see that. I would see that right now, actually. That sounds pretty amazing. But yeah, for me, it's not like, it's gone, just in the past week, it's gone from, I am like booking out every single weekend in August and September to go to L.A. to, yeah, this show's good, but it's on a Monday night and I got to work the next morning. So, I mean, I know. It's great. It's crazy how quickly you revert back to your slothed self before the pandemic where you were like, it's a Tuesday night.

Do I want to stay up until 1 o'clock in the morning, you know, by going to the show? Yeah, I mean... There are two opening bands? I don't know. Yeah. I know. Like, it's so pathetic. I'm in a similar situation.

And you're right. August and September are going to be bananas. I don't know how we're going to do any shows in that time because I feel like we'll probably both just be going to concerts all the time. It's just insane. How stacked the fall is going to be. The biggest indicator to me is that Joyce Manor announced the show at the Palladium in Hollywood, which is like a 3,800 cap room. And, you know, they were scared in 2019 that they were, when they play with like Jeff Rosenstock and AJJ that it's like, oh, you know, we're worried that it's going to be half full. They sold out that same venue in like

a day with turnover and Tiger's show. They had to make a second show. Like people are just people are just going to, I think the first show I'm going back to, is turnstile. So you can only imagine what that's going to be like. I'm going to a jam-bam festival in Eau Claire next month. That's going to be my first show back. So I'm excited for that. Yeah, there's a bunch of things that I'll be going to later on. Yeah, it's going to be really fun.

Hey, I wanted to run something by you quick. I have an idea for, you know, there's going to be a, sequel to Joker. This is a million-dollar idea. I want to share it with you because there's going to be a sequel to Joker, Joker 2. They're already making this. I don't know if, I know Todd Phillips is co-writing the screenplay. So maybe he's an indie head and he listens to our show.

So this is my idea for Joker 2. Joaquin Phoenix, he gets on Twitter and he sends one tweet complaining about poptimism. Oh God. Or calling Olivier Rodrigo. overrated in teenage music. Adults shouldn't like it. He sends one tweet and then he just watches Twitter burn to the ground

from that one tweet, from people arguing with this one tweet that they feel like they have to they have to, look, I'm poking fun at something that was a big deal, I guess, in our corner of the internet this week. There was a viral tweet from somebody, I forget the

exact wording, but it was something like pitchfork fooled people into thinking that pop stars were important and it's just girls on pills. Oh yeah, that's right. It's like this isn't something like that. Yeah, this isn't the voice of our national culture. It's just some girl on pills, which you know what? Like I guess that shows the progress we've made in 10 years or so. Not even 10 years because like two years ago, maybe even like a year ago, like the there was there, you would see like every six months someone would make a ha ha ha ha like remember when they fooled us into liking animal collective and dirty projectors people who are like pop fans saying that so yeah it's totally flipped yeah the other way yeah we're we're like so back to normal it's like flipped on its head it's like a bizarre normal now but it was like three or four days of discourse over this one tweet yeah we are so bored then we have to talk about pop optimism for three or four days

And again, it's this phenomenon. And we have to shout out Kill a Cow. Yeah. Twitter user at Kill a Cow. Yeah. Which I think has become maybe the defining tweet of like the last year or two of Twitter. Yeah. Sweet was to the effect of, you know, I saw someone argue that Steph Curry can't even shit.

This idea of like arguing with nobody. It's inventing a guy and arguing with that guy. Like that is Twitter. or taking one tweet or two tweets from like some random crank and then blowing that up into a cause that you have to defend. So we are actually having this conversation over and over again, it seems, this year, about whether it's okay for adults to listen to teenage music or to engage in youth culture, which again, I feel like this has been settled long ago. And the kids won. They dominate everything. So why are we arguing about this all the time?

It's just hilarious today. What else are we going to do? I mean, it's a slow release week. You know, that might be, we kind of hinted at that by the fact that we're talking about, like an album that's out in a week and an album that's 20 years old today. I'm just saying, Joker 2. Yeah. Like, Joker 2, one tweet.

This is going to be like the straight to DVD version of like, it would be like Joker 5. Like once they've like completely wrung out all of like the side plots for Joker, it's just going to be like straight up internet base. We're going to get, not Joaquin Phoenix, but like just some, like, fifth, like fifth rate variation on them. Like, like the American Pie movies, like once all the people in the original got too famous to be in the sequels. Like Jamie Kennedy. Yeah, we're going to get like Breckinmeyer or something like that. Breck and Meyer kind of has like a Joker, like, smile.

Yeah, actually, Jamie Kennedy was apparently in a quasi-cancelled movie recently. That was. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was like a pro-a-life movie, wasn't it? He said he got, like, tricked into being, like, in an abortion truth or a movie or something like that. I hate it when that happens. I hate it when I get tricked into being a anti-abortion movie.

Into being, like, a right-wing Q-A-N-on. I mean, it happens in the best of us. So, I don't know. Maybe Jamie Kennedy's ready to get his career back on the track. So, Jamie, if you're listening, if you're one of the rare Californians, who is a loyal Indycast listener, your people, my people, let's talk. Oh, how wild would it be if Jamie Kennedy wrote us an email? That would be amazing.

Jamie, I know you're listening, Jamie. Write us an email. Just say, yo, what's up? You know, a long time listener, first time writer. You don't even have to like ask us. Maybe he would ask us a question about, I wonder what Jimmy Kennedy would be into. Like, what era of Indy Rock? Well, I mean, Malibu's most wanted is kind of his, like, his, like, magnum opus.

So perhaps. Okay. But then again, that's like backpack wrap? Maybe like backpack. Like it's definitely like post-M-N-M sort of rap. So I don't know. Like I do think that but Malibu's most wanted was him. A senator arranges for his son, a rich white kid who fancies himself black to be kidnapped by a couple of black actors pretending to be murderers and shock him out of his plans become a rapper.

Oh, that's not a movie that would be made now. Probably not. I mean, I feel like Scrook. dream is probably his peak. He wasn't the star, but like that's the, it's probably his best film. All right. I'm going to dig into the Jamie Kennedy canon this over the weekend and figure out what his best movie is.

This is like a two-episode arc for Indycast. We've once again pivoted at the will of the people who we just made up. You know, who would be great, you know, what would be great for Jamie Kennedy, get a guest shot on billions. Maybe he could be like Axis like, near do well, younger brother. Or yeah, or his asshole cousin or something like that. Okay, you know, well, since you brought up like semi-cancelation here, I wanted to bring up something. And maybe I'm not allowed to say this name in music media now.

But I realized a few days ago that one Ryan Adams put out an album last week called Big Colors. And I was completely unaware of this. I had no idea that this happened. And I googled Ryan Adams' big colors. And I think like literal like, you know, tumbleweed blew out of my computer screen. Like there was no coverage of this at all of there was no news announcements. There were no reviews of it. Oh, yeah.

I think there was like one think piece about it. that someone wrote, and it wasn't a review of the record, it was basically saying that Ryan Adams needs to own up to his mistakes and address the allegations made in that New York Times story from a couple years ago.

Yeah. But I don't know if you noticed this too. To me, this is unprecedented. I can't remember an instance where, obviously we've had musicians that have had scandal. Yeah. in their past, but typically you still will hear about a new record that they're putting out,

or maybe someone will do a review and it'll be a negative review, but at least they're acknowledging it. But there's been this sort of unspoken ban of Ryan Adams everywhere. Yeah, I guess we just got to say first and foremost that I know that de-platforming is effective. You know, the fact that like Donald Trump isn't on Twitter anymore has been, you know, a source of great joy and relief for people. So, like, look, the fact that we're mentioning him, I don't think this is, like, an example of, like, oh, we're promoting him or whatever.

Like, if he somehow, like, gets back into the spotlight off the strength of an indie cast mentioned, then, you know what? I'll apologize for that. But, yeah, I do think it's, like, I think it's just kind of, like, just from a perspective of, like, what must it be like to go into the studio and complete this,

record knowing that like no one's going to want to touch it at all like it must it's it's it's it's it's because we've seen this before because like remember it there were a couple years ago um now the most complete cancellation i've ever seen in ours is probably power bottom but like there was right there was an i think it was billboard and i think it was maybe last year like my concept of time has been so warped by uh you know covid 19 that there was they they did a follow up yeah the or at least one of the members had a comeback album that sort of... I think it was like talking about the possibility of a comeback. Okay.

And then there was such a negative reaction that I assume that just went away. Yeah. Unless that came out and no one talked about it. But I don't know. I didn't hear anything else about that after that story. What's interesting to me about the Ryan Adams thing, and I don't want to get into the allegations and all that. That's been talked about.

I don't want to hash that out. I also don't want men's rights action. activists in our mentions complaining about that. So let's just set that aside for a moment. What intrigues me about this is, well, there's a couple things. Number one, is it fair to say that he was canceled? Because there's no question that he's been diminished significantly in terms of his media coverage. But to cite your power bottom example, you can go on any streaming platform and hear his music.

His music is basically as accessible as it's, ever been. I remember actually when, because he put out a record in December, I think. Oh yeah, he did. Yes. I got an email from, I got an email from Spotify telling me that there was a new Ryan Adams album. So, you know, you talk about us giving him a platform by mentioning his name in this episode. I mean, this is like the biggest streaming platform in the world sending emails out to people saying that he has a new record. So like, you know, he's still available and he's still accessible to people. the only difference is that the media apparently has decided that they're not interested in talking about him anymore. And it made me think about how, you know, if you were to compare him to, like, say, other alt-rock troubad, alt-country troubadours in their mid-40s, is it really that different? Yes.

Because, I mean, if like, but think about like J. Ferrar, for instance. Like, Jay Ferrar isn't getting tons of coverage for like a new SunVolt record, which by the way, he's put out some good SunVolt records in the last few years. He's getting maybe a little bit more coverage. But I guess my, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there's very few artists that the media has to cover because they're so popular and insignificant. And that really like 99% of the time, the people who get covered get covered because people in the media have decided that this person is good or they're interested. interesting, you know, there's a great degree of discretion, I guess, in how things get covered. And Ryan Adams, in a way, you know, it's like he has an audience, but he's not so popular that you have to cover his records at this point. Yeah, I think it's a little bit of an...

So that aspect of it is interesting. Yeah, it's a little bit arbitrary about, like, who people decide to and who don't. I mean, like, people were, like, kind of dying to, like, not talk about him anyway for a while. But, yeah, I mean, I was actually going to bring up Jay, for R myself. Like, yeah, that's an example of someone who, you know, they'll put out an album, but at least they'll get, like, covered in some publication. I mean, like, blogs need material.

But, yeah, I mean, I just, I'm, like, wondering if there's going to be, like, like, a gonzo young music journalist who, like, takes it upon themselves to, you know, really listen to, like, the, like, the canceled power bottom album or the Ryan Adams albums or, like, the Sun Kill Moon album that came out this past year, or, like, that one, uh, post-year. Jank album that came out and was just like not at all well received. Just to see like there's just this going to be this kind of like dark web of post canceled material. And like I just wonder if like Ryan Adams is actually writing about that experience, you know? Well, this album, I think the albums that he's put out were made before the whole thing happened.

Because I remember big colors coming up before that New York Times story. drop. So I don't think those records are necessarily reflecting on that. I guess I'm curious, speaking to your point, about how long is this going to last with him? Because I feel like eventually, and he puts out so many albums, I think eventually he will get covered, but I don't know. Like, the Power Bottom example to me is a little more troubling. I'm not a fan of like records just being black hold and not exist like someone pushes a button

and they don't exist anymore that feels a little weird to me I understand the rationale if you're a record company and you don't want to be associated with a certain band and feel like you're profiting off a band that you don't agree with anymore

I understand that but I don't know this Ryan Adam solution in a way seems the most fair yeah because because he's not obligated to get covered like there's no like law that Ryan Adams needs to be covered.

But like, if you're a fan of him, you can go hear his records if you want. I mean, they're as accessible as they ever were. So, you know, so if people are saying that he was canceled, I don't know if he has been. I guess it's hard to define what that is. Maybe he'll be in this like Woody Allen making movies in Europe, like that exclusively come out in Europe phase.

I don't know. I frankly could give a shit because, you know, even he hadn't made a good record since God knows when. Well, that's the other thing too, is that he's in a period of his career, like, where he's not really making significant records. It seems like he's beyond that now. And he was already probably moving toward more of a cult status anyway, where there's a group of people that really love his music

and they're going to, you know, just buy anything that he puts out. And, yeah, you can still do that. Society has progressed beyond the need for, Ryan Adams. Yeah, it seems like it. It definitely seems like it. We progress that as a culture. So let's get to our mailbag segment.

And again, thanks to everyone who's written in to our show. If you want to write us, our email address is Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. So we love to hear from you. This letter today comes from a listener in Australia, which is awesome. Another one of our best markets. Yeah, we do great in Australia. Yeah. We're like big Australian market.

We got to get down to Australia. Yeah. You got to get, I'll hit up uprocks. Yeah. And I'll be like, hey, you know. Uprocks down under. I mean, it's got a really good ring to it. You drop like 10.

I don't even know how much it cost to fly to Australia. I feel like it could probably be expensive. But I think it'd be worth it to meet up with our Australian pals down there. The listener's name is Katie. Katie, thank you for writing in. She says, just want to start up by saying how much I look forward to your episodes every week. I'm recovering from a brain injury at the moment. Oh, man, Katie.

Which means I can't really use my eyes or cognitive process as much. So like reading or watching billions, for example. But she can still make a billions joke. Okay, man. Katie, I hope you're doing okay. That sounds rough. So I wanted to write in following your Bonnie Vair conversation. I was in seventh grade when for Emma Forever Go came out,

and I can confirm your suspicion, Steve. And I think she's saying that, like, I think I said in that episode that I think for like a generation of people, Bonnie Vair was probably like their middle school music or their high school music that they associate with that time. So I think she's probably alluding to that. So sometimes I hear Skinny Love out in the world and I have flashbacks of the many whispery Julius Stone

accented covers of MySpace photos of hunched shoulders and Turner and Feet Turner and Feet I don't know what that is We need to do some Australian research Of being in the interim of lime wire Breaking and Streaming where the only way I could listen to new music for free Was crouched next to the speaker of my family computer

In the kitchen with the volume turned up to the loudest non-annoying volume I actually tried to do a re-listen to the album last year And it was Autumn in lockdown and no. I feel like Justin Vernon will be in the locker of 2007, at least for a while, which I don't know about your time in seventh, eighth grade, but gosh, not the funnest time to return to. Yes, I agree with that.

Kind of a negative nostalgia, at least at this point in time. Would love to hear your negative nostalgia stories if you have any, or something that you may be liked at the time and it's considered classic or at least good, but you can't listen to now. Keep up the good work, guys. Katie. Thanks for writing in, and I hope you feel better soon. Glad that we can keep you entertained a little bit during this time.

So, yeah, she's asking basically, she says that when she listens to Bunny Bear, she can acknowledge that this is a classic record, but it takes her to a time in her life that was not very fun. So it's hard for her to listen to that record at this moment. So she's asking us if there's records like that for us. Are there any records like that for you? So, you know, I'm always just perplexed when there's this widespread antipathy towards things like, you know, a ska or whatever where it's like, it was like a niche culture that like people just don't like the, they don't like the style of it. But when I think of like seventh to tenth grade, which is, of course, one of the most formative times in one's youth, a big part of my social life at that time was going to Bar Mitzvah's and Jewish youth group, particularly like reformed.

Jewish youth group, which is like barely Jewish-flavored, like camp. You know, like the religious component is, it's not like Christian youth group. Like, believe me. But, you know, I don't know what it is about like Jewish kids in the Mid-Atlantic who ended up, like, going to places like Syracuse, the University of Maryland. But like Dave Matthews band just spoke to these kids, man. And that artist just dominated that time of my life so thoroughly. And, like, I just cannot stand that music.

And, like, I see, like, every now and again, you'll get, like, people trying to, like, you know, reassess. It's like, well, actually, it's very progressive music. Like, if you think about it. Shout out, Riley Walker in regard. He's been a big game, Matthews proponent. Yes, he has. And you know what? At least it was busted stuff that he was trying to do, which I've, you know, I've given a chance.

But, you know. He did, like, the Lily White sessions. No, that's the one he did. Yes. That's the one he covered. And, yeah, so. It's music like that, and I've talked about this with like Haim and Vampire Weekend, how they as artists and just their taste just remind me of like the popular kids and Jewish youth group

who like you wanted to hate them, but they were actually kind of super nice. And I mean, I also went to the University of Virginia in 1998. If you don't know this is where Dave Matthews band is from, I guess there's just a subliminal part of me that just likes to be in constant conflict. my roommate in his first year had five Dave Matthews band posters and you know he was from Maine so I have to assume that he

partially picked this school because of Dave Matthews and I think this Oh yeah and I think that he thought he was going to run into like Carter Beauford You probably were like that's like oh yeah man I remember when I saw Leroy and I saw Stefan the basis at Millers but yeah

I have to say like I went to school you know Claire Wisconsin around this time I went to college And Dave Matthews was also huge there too. That was just like the peak of DMB mania, especially if you were in the vicinity of a college campus. I walked from one end of campus to the other, and I heard a different Dave Matthew song coming out of some dorm window the entire walk.

I mean, that's how big that guy was. So I actually have the same answer in a way of my negative nostalgia. I think I was very reactionary against Dave Matthews for a long time, because it was so ubiquitous. But, yeah, I feel like, though, that we've touched on this topic in the past. I know you've talked about how in emo, that a lot of times, you know, there's this phenomenon where, you know, people grow up with emo and then they get older and they go into indie rock, reacting against their emo past, and then they eventually come back around.

Yeah. And I know for me, like in my 20s, I had negative nostalgia about grunge and alternative. of rock. And it really wasn't until my early 30s that I went back to that. And I think that there's something that happens in your 20s where you're very reactionary against how you were as a teenager because you're almost embarrassed by how you were at that age. And you're so close to it that you can still feel this visceral reaction to this former self of you. And then you get a little bit older and you get more distance and you actually want to reconnect with your younger self because as part of your history.

And there's something, I know for me, it was like, I want to reconnect with this music because it's, it's part of me. And like to cut this out, it's like I'm cutting out a part of myself in a way. So I guess my, what I would say to Katie is that I think eventually she's going to come back around on Bunny Bear, because she'll be like, well, actually, I was pretty cool when I was in seventh grade. Yeah, that was a painful time. But that music helped me at that time.

It's part of my heritage in a way. So I want to reembrace that. I mean, don't you agree? I mean, I think that's an age thing. I think at some point you get into your 30s and you don't feel the same way anymore. Exactly. I think that, and we've talked about this a few times about how, like, I'm less, I would be like less embarrassed by a best of list I made when I was 16 than I would of one that I

made when I was like 28. Like, I'm. Right. Yeah, something just happens to you in your 20s. And I have to realize that any time I get like kind of. you know, mad about, like, you know, whatever, like, the newer generations of critics are saying, you know. And it's like they have to put their stamp on things and, like, they have their own negative nostalgia going on. And I just also think that this speaks to the, when we talk about, like, you know, people our age embracing pop music.

It's like, you have to remember, like, teens and also like people of any age, like, they will viscerally react to, like, liking the same thing as the popular kids, you know? It's like, I just think that there's this concept like, oh, this, you know, this, like, Olivia Rodrigo, she speaks to the high school experience. I mean, like, but what about like the kids who like hated that stuff and listened to like smashing pumpkins and Alice in chains, you know, like they're teens too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's always an underrated aspect of how we want to talk about the zeitgeisty artists. Yeah.

There's always going to be this countergroup, especially like in youth culture. where, you know, yeah, like you said, you react against this thing that you hear all the time. In the same way that when we were college students, we reacted against Dave Matthews band because you couldn't get away from it. And I'm sure that there's kids who hear whatever the most popular stuff is, and they react against it because they don't want to be part of the crowd. You know, they want to be themselves, and that's one way you can assert your iconoclastic sense. Alternative rock culture, I have me believing that listening to like Allison Chains

and Smashing Pumpkins made me like an outcast as opposed to someone who was listening to like music that was every bit as popular as Dave Matthews. Yeah, exactly. You know, but Dave didn't shave his head and wear a zero t-shirt. So he's the, you know, he's with the cool kids and Billy Corrigan is with the freaks. Yeah. That was the thinking at that time. Well, let's get into the meat of our episode.

We're going to be talking about two indie rock institutions. Yes. One of which has a new record. it out next week drops June 25th. There's so many albums coming out June 25th. Yeah, we're going to do like a lightning round episode next week.

I mean, so yeah, it was worth getting ahead of this record by Modest Mouse. It's called the Golden Casket. Sure is. I believe it's their seventh record. No way. They have to have more than that. Well, they have a lot of EPs, but in terms of full length albums, let's see, you have

There's a long drive. The Lonesome Crowded West, moon in Antarctica, good news, when the ship sank, the one that came after that, that I can't remember the title of, 2015.

Yeah, the golden casket. Stranger to ourselves. Strangers to ourselves. Strangers to ourselves. I mean, really, like, in the last, I mean, since good news for people who like bad news,

which came out in 2004, and that was like their big mainstream breakthrough that had flowed on on it, I think that record sold about two million copies, which was, I mean, that had to be, the tail end of the period where a record could sell two million records, yeah.

Could sell two million records. So, you know, they have some serious commercial clout. But yeah, ever since then, the 17 years since then, they put out three records. Okay. And the Golden Cascots, their first record in six years. And I did an interview with Isaac Brock that ran this week where we talked about each Modest Mouse record, including the new one. It got a little bit of traction online because Isaac was talking about the new record, which has a technology angle to it.

And Isaac has some, he's kind of a conspiracy theorist, I guess. I know there was a guy who is an expert on Q&ON, who read the interview and he was tweeting out excerpts from it. And, you know, talking about how, because Isaac was talking about things like gang stalking and like other things that are, I guess. And there's this secret document that was supposedly leaked from the government call, what's it called? It's like silent weapons and quiet wars. This is like the least surprising thing to me imaginable. Like it's like Isaac, like I'm almost shocked that he isn't gone deeper into like conspiracy theory and such. Well, he might have, I mean, in our interview, which by the way, I just want to say that in our interview, I thought he was really funny and in good spirits.

No, I'm sure. Someone asked me this, like, how he was, like, because I guess some people thought he came off as angry or ranting in my interview. And it's like, no, he just says the F word a lot, you know? I thought he was like, it was fun to talk to him. He's a very interesting character. He's like, one of the great characters of modern indie rock, I think, for sure. So, but yeah, he's got a lot of quirky ideas and it feeds into the record.

I don't know. I feel like we're on the same page with this record. Yeah. I mean, it's produced by Jack Knife Lee and Dave Sardi, who were like two enormous... LA guys. Yeah. Like, well, actually, Jack Knife Lee is British, but he... He's British, but like, he's worked with you too, R.E.M., the killers. I mean, he's worked with, like, basically every...

Block parties. A weekend in the city, too. And Snow Patrol's Final Straw. So... You were, you're contractually obligated to mention that Black Party record. Yeah. That's their second record, right? That's the one that you feel like is one.

And Snow Patrol's Final Straw, which is another classic of that. I think that good news for saying that album, basically. Those are like spring of 2004. That's good nostalgia right there, man. Yeah, and when we were talking about this too, I know you noted this in the outline, because we're going to be talking about the shins here in a minute and the parallels between Modis Mouse in the shins

and like how weren't you talking about like wincing the night away oh yeah we were dead before the ship even sank like the 2007 2007 package deal like you

I don't know who could possibly have owned one and not the other I mean also like James Mercer was on that modest mouse album on a couple songs like I I do think that in 20

22 may 20 yeah next year maybe we do a 15th anniversary tour of those two together. You know, we get to hear Florida, them performing it as intended. That's a good song. Yeah, it's a good song. But I think that like both of these bands, specifically like Modest Mouse, like, how fucking crazy is it that like Modest Mouse is like a radio rock institution now?

Like a new Modest Mouse song will be put on like 91X or whatever your local Clear Channel Rock station will be because it's the new Modest Mouse song. and you'll hear it, and it sounds not altogether different than, like, imagine, not a matter. It sounds more like Foster the People or Cold War kids, but like Modest Mouse flavored. I think that's a good, I think that's how I would describe the new album. Well, like, you, and, you know, mentioning those two records in tandem, the Shins record of the Midas Mouse record, those two that came out in 2007, it seemed like that was the year that both bands put out their Radio Rock record.

I mean, you know, obviously Modis Mouse put out good news and that had Flood on it, but I don't think that they necessarily conceived that thinking that. It was going to be a huge, you know, multi-platinum hit, whereas that record, we were dead before the ship even sank, definitely was conceived in that way. It is interesting, too, because I do hear from people for both bands that do, like, those are their best records. And that seems generational to me. Like, there's a certain age group that feels like, oh, no, yeah, like that most record,

you know, we were dead before the ship even sank. their best. Whereas someone like us, I feel like would be like, no, Lonesome Croutredwood West is obviously their best work. But that's like 10 years before this Radio Rock Prime. So it almost is like they have two different careers. Yeah. Well, which one is the best to you? Well, obviously, Lonesome Crowded West for me. I think that, I mean, maybe Moon and that Artica would be number two. That's, that's my number one. Like, I think that like Lonesome Crowded West is the most distinct. Like, That is the one that you hear just echoes of it throughout Indy Rock. And, you know, Modus Mouse, like, has really been adopted by a lot of emo bands.

But, you know, Moon and Antarctica, like, that's the one if you want to talk about, like, when we were talking about Boni Bear last week, like, I would think that would, that album would do for people what the Moon and Antarctica did for me. That came out when I was, like, second or third year in college and just, like, you know, get it, like, getting high and just having, like, my mind blown by the production and, like, thinking, like, this. guy's got it all figured out. Like, lo and behold, I had no idea he, like, was in the hospital because he's got it at, because he got his ass kicked at a bar, you know? Yeah, well, and he talked about that in my interview, and this is like a well-known story about how, you know, they were recording that album in Chicago, and he got jumped by some neighborhood kids who broke his jaw, and his jaw was wired shut for several weeks, and he was basically in the studio just doing

overdubs because there was nothing else for him to do, and that's why that record is so layered. Yeah, I mean, there is, I think, to me, in my mind, there's a clear difference between, like, those first three albums of Modis Mouse and the records that they did afterward. And it seems, in my mind, the main difference is that on those first three records, they were a trio. And, like, by Moan in Artica, they were already bringing in ancillary members. That's obviously a much more layered record. But, you know, like, shout out to Jeremiah Green. Oh, yeah. I think is one of the greatest indie rock drummers of the last 25 years.

When I think about my favorite Modest Mouse, I think about the last five minutes of Truckers Atlas. Like when they're just jamming on this minimal groove. And it's such a distinctive sound. And the chemistry that they had as a band, I think is so unique and integral to those records. The songwriting is great. But I think the sound of it is just as important.

And if there's something lacking for me in these latter-day Modest Mouse records, it's that there's so many people in the band now. I mean, Isaac Brock talked about them being a revolving door. And he didn't mean that as a... Usually you say that, and it's not a compliment, but he looked at it as a positive. I mean, they're essentially like a collective that people come in and out of.

And it just seems a little more anonymous to me than those early records. I saw an article about, like, written by somebody who was a huge, modest-mouthed fan and, like, talked about the disappointment of, like, the newer stuff. And he said it's like whenever you see like a sixth guy on stage for Mazum, it's like, oh, great.

Like we can go to the bathroom now. Like that's when you know they're going to play something from strangers to ourselves or something like that. It's like they have like two drummers on stage. And it's like the Allman Brothers band or something. It's crazy. And then, you know, like Johnny Marr was in the band for several years, which is really weird. but you know there's some good songs on the new record that song we are between that's a decent

song yeah I mean it's a solid like melodic radio rock song and I think lyrically there's some interesting things on there that connect with the older material you know if there's a through line in my assmouth's career it's that Isaac Brock has always been skeptical of technology and progress and you know, how that affects the environment and just, I guess, humanity in general. I mean, that was a big theme of the lonesome crowded West. You can hear that on the moon in Antarctica.

And that connects to the golden casket, again, in ways that are kind of quirky. If I could put it that way. Sure. And conspiracy-minded. But, you know, as we move over to talking about the shins, well, this conversation makes me think about, like, the legacy of, like, Pacific Northwest

rock. And I know the shins are originally from New Mexico, but like they were on subpop and they sound like a band from the Pacific Northwest. And, you know, and it just makes me wonder, like, is built to spill the most influential band maybe of indie? Because they seem like the beginning of like a lot of this stuff. And you can talk, you talk about Death Cab for Cutie, and you go up to like Band of Horses and Fleet Foxes, that kind of beardy, epic guitar-oriented. Yeah, I would say built to spill is definitely like one of the most influential, especially since they're like the kind of origin for a lot of this stuff. And also there's that built to spill like fake pop punk song at the end of, there's nothing wrong with love. Like I think for at least five years in Philadelphia, like that was what

indie rock was. You know, like it sounds like built a spill and making a pop punk song. So yeah, It's it's it's it's it's kind of crazy how like built a spill has You know created such a legacy but still like not If you you you you wouldn't have them anchor a festival lineup Yeah and they don't seem as famous even now as pavement or sonic use Well that's because like pavement went away you know built a spill still releases albums and you know I feel like Maybe we need to have a built to spill episode at some point but oh that'd be great yeah yeah yeah Yeah, they're always reliable, too.

You go see them, and they're always pretty solid. But the reason we're talking about the Shins is that it's the 10th anniversary, that's a 20th anniversary of Owen, geez Louise, of O Inverted World, their debut album. And Sub Pop is reissuing the record. I believe that's out today. So that, I guess, is one of the big releases of this week, which is a reissue of a 20-year-old record. But, yeah, this is an interesting record. And, I mean, I think it's one of the great indie rock records of 2001.

And there were, of course, a lot of momentous albums that came out this year. It's not necessarily a record, though, that you would have thought people would care about 20 years after the fact when it came out. Yeah, you would think it would have gotten crowded out by everything else that was going on in 2001, you know? And I'm not just talking about, like, the new rock revolution stuff that was happening. later in that year with the strokes and white stripe and everything that is surrounded 9-11. But they just seem like a band that kind of tied together this low-key. This is, okay, I think we need to like just set the scene for how long 20 years ago was in like indie rock culture because like when we have like a conversation about like, you know,

pop and so forth. Like this is still when you were bands were still trying to sound like the Beatles and the Beach boys. You had that whole like Beulah and Beachwood Sparks and, you know, old of Montreal going on at the time. And this was just kind of more of like a doing that, but more of like a almost like a Simon and Garfunkel sort of thing going on as well. It's kind of like that, you know, and we've talked about this in previous episodes about how like like the influence of the 60s seems totally absent now from Indy Rock. And I think this was like the tail end of like the 60s still. being important.

It's like you still, like in indie rock now, it's obviously so dominated by the 80s. Yeah. You know, the 80s and the 90s. And the 90s. The 70s to some degree,

but like the 60s not at all. Yeah. But yeah, you could still get like 60s influence sounding indie records in 2001 that were also getting a lot of traction in terms of commercially and critically. Yeah.

And this record to me, it's like, I mean, is it because of Garden State? Like, is that the reason there's, like, a 20th anniversary? Like, how big was this before Garden State? Which, by the way, I feel like I just need to admit the fact I've never actually seen that movie.

That's crazy to me. Like, you were never at someone's house where it happened to be on and- I might have been, but like I'm watching it. I found out at work back in the back before COVID, like, I wasn't there at the time. But, like, when they would have dinner together, like, they would put on background music and apparently it would just be the Garden State soundtrack on repeat, which I've also never sat down and listened to. Like, was I that much of like a, I don't know,

like was I that contrarian back in 2004 as well? I mean, you were, my memory of Garden State is that there was a grace period where people saw that movie and they thought it was good. And then at some point something tipped and people got annoyed with it or they realized that, like, the narrative had turned against it, and it was fun to, like, rip on that movie. I mean, it really is, like, a pre-social media phenomenon. Like, if that movie came out, like, when Twitter was big,

I wonder, like, if the shins would have had the career that they had, because I think you're right. I mean, I think I had an old inverted world. I remember when it came out. I saw the shins. Yeah, I drove up for Modus Mouse. I saw him in 2001 at the Black Hat D.C. and it was

maybe like a 700 cap room I saw the shins open for Mazma. I do not remember a thing about that show. Maybe that's just more of a more reflection of like, you know, what I was doing at 21 than. You're just partying, man. You're partying too hard, man.

Yeah, that was like mooning Antarctica era too. That was. That would have been good. I drove like five hours to see the shins at the 400 bar in Minneapolis when I was living in Wisconsin. And I loved it.

I thought it was. a great show. But yeah, they definitely blew up in a mainstream kind of way because of Garden State. And I just think, like,

if that movie had come out when Twitter was big, and because I think the tide would have turned against it much quicker. It just makes me think that, like, if that movie came out

when Twitter was big, that maybe the Shins wouldn't have had the career that they had because they would have been sunk by the association. People would have played that scene with Natalie Portman

and Zach Braff and just rolled their eyes, which they do now, but they didn't do that immediately after that movie came out. Again, there was this grace period where that movie was kind of cool for a little while, I think.

And then people hated it after that. So there definitely is a version of Garden State that's happening right now. We just probably don't see it. And there is going to be a, I don't know, the equivalent of the new slang needle drop, but we just don't know it right now.

If there's any theme of this episode, It's the way that, you know, future generations just react to whatever the 25-year-olds thought was cool at that time. And I think with the Shins, what stands out to me when I listen to this record and also, like, shoots too narrow, which I guess you would call the imperial fete, the imperial indie phase of them, like what, like, is there any Shins influence happening at this point? Well, I was going to turn this question to you because I wonder if Owen Verbalt, world, if that came out today, would they be classified as an emo record?

If not, if it's on subpop. Well, okay, but let's say maybe they wouldn't put it out. Maybe it would have been on run for cover, you know, that came out in 2001. Because you have a high-pitched vocalist. You have, you know, emotional relationship-oriented lyrics. It's, especially that first record, it's like a pretty scrappy, DIY-sounding rock record. I mean, like the, the distance between that record and say Joyce Manor isn't that big except Joyce Spanner's songs are just much shorter

but like Joyce Manor has a similar lineage to the Shins and that like you know they come from that like sort of GBV 90s indie rock thing like Joyce Manor has that in their blood too so I just I think that they would maybe be in the emo camp

now if this record came out okay and I'm going to prove you right because I am looking back at the original pitchfork review and I want you to guess what score they got. 8.0? Correct. There you go. Yeah, I feel like that was just like a long setup.

But, you know, the thing, like, the comparison with like the shins and modest mouse to me is that, you know, modest mouse, you can totally hear when a band is modest mouse influence. Like when they do the harmonics with the whammy bar or they do like kind of a quasi-disco sort of beat happening. But with like the shins, you're right in that it's like, I mean, there was a period. of time when you have like shins clones. Like I gotta give a shout out to Rogue Wave. Like those first two records are like pretty clearly like subpop trying to find,

trying to find like, you know, a B-Team Shins and maybe like Sea Wolf or maybe early someone still loves you, Boris Yeltsin. I mean, there was a, it, I think that those are like those are the bands that I oftentimes think of as like definitive of an era, not because like they're the greatest bands of that but it's because you can tell a lot more about a period of time by like the bands that are getting picked up like in the same way that you're going to hear a lot of snail mail sound likes right now. I mean I think with the shins like their brand was basically catchy guitar pop that is presented in a way that is supposed to be timeless.

Yeah. Like you hear that record and yeah you think of the Beach Boys and maybe you think of more melodic strands of like 90s indie rock. Yeah, exactly. And I think there's always going to be bands that go back to that. I mean, you can look at a band like second grade, for instance, from a really good Philadelphia band who I don't know if they like the shins at all. You know, but they have a similar aesthetic where you hear their records and it's like, oh, this is like classic pop rock songwriting. You know, they're going back to the well of like that great 60s, 70s, you know, just melodic, almost like power pop type music.

Yeah. And so, and that's hard to pin on any one band. But, you know, the shins are part of that lineage, I think. Do you like, what do you prefer, the first record or the second record, shoots too narrow? I think shoots too narrow. Like, I have more of a personal attachment to it because, like, I was, there's just, like, I suppose, a difference when an album is highly anticipated. I kind of wore that one out at that time. I would say that, oh, inverted world is the one I might go to a bit.

more often. But I think, yeah, shoots too narrow. I think St. Simon is their best song. I do, I also think, like, that there's, like, a meanness to this record, shoots too narrow that gets understated because, like, you don't really quote Shin's lyrics too much, but, you know, mine's not a high horse, you know, gone for good or what, or fighting in a sack. I mean, like, those are like, James Mercer, low key, kind of an angry dude. And I just like how that cuts against I guess the, you know, the shininess of the melodies to the point. Like, because in a way, O inverted world, I just kind of vibe out to that. But Shoots Too Narrow is the one that I think of more as like when I connect with personally.

I have to go back to shoots too narrow. I always felt like, because I was such a, I loved O Inverted World when it came out. So I actually had an opposite reaction where I felt like the second record was a little underwhelming to me just because I love the first one so much. And I still think it's a really good record I always thought the production was like a little too precious Like I like the scrappiness of the first record It sounds like a little more lo-fi

I don't want to say it rocks It's not a rocking record But it's like a little like the guitars are like Not quite as polished and I think I like that aspect to it Like songs like No Your Onion And press in a book Like those kind of songs It's almost like closer to Weezer

On that first record than they became which is more of like an orchestral pop almost sound on shoots too narrow. But yeah, I don't know. Both those records are really good. And the records they did after that, I don't really care about as much. But they've gone on to... Wincing the night away. I mean, it's got its moments.

Like, you just have to respect it in the same way that you would... I guess, like, in the 90... Like, that to me, if used these stores would exist, it's like, that's the sort of one that maybe you would see in UCD stores. And I mean that as a compliment. It would be like the... It's their monster? Is that their monster? Maybe more like their File Under Easy listening.

Yeah. Anyway, I don't know. Owen Vordered World, I think, is a classic. I still love that record. If you don't know that record, go check it out. There's a new reissue. I think you'll really love it. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner,

where Ian and I recommend something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I want to bring the attention to a band called Me Rex. They put out some really strong EPs back in 2020, Triceratops and Stegosaurus. They're a band from the UK, kind of a combination of Frighton Rabbit and Los Campesinos, that sort of talky, very referential lyricism. So they're putting out their first album. It's called Mega Bear.

And this is like one of the more ambitious and unusual album concepts I've seen in years. It is 52 tracks that are at the same BPM and meant to be put on shuffle. And it also has like kind of this quasi tarot deck that comes along with it. But it's kind of an experiment in songwriting where they have like verses and choruses and bridges all kind of that fit together. And you put it on shuffle. It's going on streaming today. And I have no idea what it's going to look like on Spotify. but right now it's 52 separate tracks.

There are ones that like kind of put songs together for, you know, for single purposes. I think that this band will probably put out a lot of interesting music going forward. But like I think that this is just one of the coolest experiments. And plus the songs are great. You know, if this, if this style of album release doesn't resonate with you, I'd also horribly recommend going back to Triceratops and Stegasaurus and Flood before then. This is like the modern day Zyrika, it sounds like.

Yes, yes. It's the Zyrika, the streaming age, the old Flaming Lips record. I've read about that record. I'm very curious to check it out. I have to do a shout out to a band that we haven't talked about enough on this show, but we will be, I think, in the months ahead, because they're, I think, a definite indie cast mascot band. It's gang of youths.

They have a new single out this week. It's called The Angel of Eighth Avenue. which is a great gang-abuse song title. Yes. And I have a feeling that there's going to be more music from this band coming soon. So I'm sure I have more to talk about in the near future. But definitely check out this single. It is basically, I think it's a great introduction to the band

because it sounds like the most gang-abuse song sounding song ever. It just incorporates all the elements that are really good about this band. Very anthemic, great vulgar. You know, it builds to this sweeping crescendo that lifts you up and makes you want to get with people and hug them, which we can do now, I suppose, since we're all getting vaccinated. But yeah, this is a great band. And they're Australian. Yeah, another Australian connection for us.

And look, I've written a lot about this band. I've got to say, if you have not yet checked out their 2017 record, Go Farther Enlightenus, do it now. If you like this show, you will love that album. I'm also a fan of the previous record, The Positions. I know Dave from the band, the main songwriter, he does not like that record, but I think it's pretty great. So yeah, so definitely dig into this single. It's a great song.

And yeah, looking forward to more from gang abuse. All right, so that about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.