Indiecast - Mumford Kills A Son, Plus An All-Mailbag Episode

Episode Date: March 12, 2021

Before Steven and Ian can jump into the latest all-mailbag episode of Indiecast, they must address the story of Mumford And Sons temporarily parting ways with their banjo player Winston Marshall after he came under fire for praising known right-wing agitator Andy Ngo in a social media post. Mumford has killed one of his sons.This week’s mailbag is the most interesting collection of listener comments yet, with a wide range of questions. Topics covered include the sexism that is inherent when classifying music by genre, critical re-evaluation of under-appreciated records, and British press lauding post-punk acts like Fontaines DC and Idles.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Cohen is plugging the new self-titled LP from Boston quartet Really From. Hyden, on the other hand, is enjoying Heaven And Holy, the latest from Painted Shrine, the collaborative project of Jeremy Earl (Woods) and Glenn Donaldson (Skygreen Leopards, The Reds, Pinks & Purples).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we're going to be answering questions from you, the IndyCast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? So, you know, it might surprise some of our longtime listeners, but, you know, music writer slash podcaster is not my dream job.

I mean, it's like maybe like to write it and talk about music and get paid for it is the dream job with like the talents I actually have. But, you know, if ever, if all things were on the table, I would say like, I don't know, 10th man on an NBA franchise, like someone who has a solid, secure place on the team, but like isn't really like under obligation to do anything with pressure. And also you get to still make like four million dollars a year. or like the musical equivalent of being, say, like, the bassist of Maroon 5 or, you know, maybe like the drum tech of Imagine Dragons where you get to be this a part of like a really successful franchise but not really famous or expected to do very much. I'm curious where you're going with this. Wait, where are we going with this?

So where we're going with this? Like, imagine like you actually have one of those jobs. And the only thing you really had to do in order to keep said job was to, you know, competently do your work and like not sit and to not say anything racist maybe and so this week was like if you're the banjo player and mumford

and sons Myers Leonard and the banjo guy from from umpford and sons like in the span of two days both like you know pretty much lost their jobs or were put on leave so they can you know explore themselves and maybe come back and not be racist

I mean I just I just can't I can't fathom. See, I had to Google Myers-Lennard because I'm not as, like, tuned into, he's an NBA player, right? Yes, he's like, Myers-Lenner. He's like a backup center on the Miami Heat who used the anti-Semitic slur while I think he was on a video, like a, like a Twitch or something like that. And the apology, you got to Google the apology.

He's still wearing his, uh, well, his headset and making an apology. You can keep that for your, you keep that for your other show at NBA cast because we need to talk about, The Mumford guy. Yes. Yeah, being, the Mumford executing one of his own sons. Yeah. Which is always a difficult thing. You know, I thought of the Godfather Part 2 where, you know, Michael Corleone has to execute Fredo for going against the family.

You know, Fredo's not his son. It's his brother, but it's a similar concept. You have to kill a family member to save yourself. I just imagine Marcus Mumford. in his mansion churning butter by himself, maybe, you know, being a blacksmith. He has like a blacksmith room in his house. And he's just doing all these old-timey things in his house. And then he gets a text message telling him that his banjo player is endorsing a book by Andy No, a book about Antifa, which I don't really know much about this book. I just, I really just,

The only way I find out about books is if the banjo player from Mumford and Sons talks about it. So this is how I heard about the book. But I just imagine, like him, you know, Marcus Mumford in his house, he hears about this. And he's probably just thinking, like, oh, I'm going to have to answer questions now in every interview about my stupid banjo player endorsing books about Antifa. It wasn't the same guy also in a photo with Jordan Peterson? I think that was the... Mumford and Sons was Jordan Peterson Corps. And like it wasn't...

I don't know if that's like quite as like... Bad in the public view as like endorsing Andy knows. Like it's actually an anti-Antifa book, which makes it fascist by definition. But like, yeah, they were like they had Jordan Peterson come by the studio to chop it up. And, you know, they got a little heat from there. But it was seen as like maybe... less urgent because I don't know.

There's like, oh, yeah, he's got some good ideas. Like, whatever, Mumford and Sons. Like, you know, they're just another reason to consider it and be kind of like a cornball band. But yeah, this one, it's kind of amazing in 2021, like to be the main character on Twitter that day. And, you know, like, it's not a famous member of the band, nor is it like someone who's Jordan Peterson famous, but the combination of those two things, and also the fact that it was

like Mumford and Sons, you know. Well, yeah, you know, people are, we're still all inside, we're bored, people are looking for something to do, and then they see the combination of an anti-Antifa book and a member of Mumford and Sons. It, you know, it's just a perfect storm of social media outrage to take place. I think that I saw on Wikipedia that his parents, or like extremely rich hedge fund people in Britain. So, you know, you get kind of like the tail off of the St. Vincent controversy.

So, I mean, it was just a really, really good way to segue into some other form of outrage. So, I mean, the fact that it's the banjo player, the banjo, not the bassist, not the guitarist, the banjo player. Well, and what's he going to do? I mean, because you look at all these zoomer bands, they're not having banjo players. You know, there's not a lot of work for banjo players. I would feel that if I were, he's got to be the, like, the richest banjo player in the world. I know Steve Martin now plays banjo. Maybe Sufian's got more money, but.

That's true. But that's not his, like. Yeah, not his thing anymore. His vocation. He happens to play banjo, but he's not known primarily as a banjo player. And neither is Steve Martin. It's like, you know, maybe the fifth or sixth thing that all those people do. This guy, his gig is playing the band.

banjo. I guess I would want to know. I guess there's maybe a country band that has a banjo player, you know, in the group that maybe does better financially than this guy. But I just have to feel that if, like, if Forbes did a list of the richest banjo players in the world, he would have to be in the top five. Oh, yeah, definitely. And one thing I want to push back against, because I saw this come up over and over again when people were talking about this story and, like, dunking on the banjo player. was this idea that like, well, you know, Mumford and Sons, they're this musically conservative band. You know, they're backward looking. It's this folk rock group. So it stands to reason that one of the members would be also politically conservative. Because the musical conservatism translates to political conservatism. I saw that come up over and over again.

And I would just push back against that. And the two examples I would list is that, you know, if Mumford and Sons are Dust Bowl fetishes, Like I heard them described that way. I think John Caramanica described him that way. Like the original Dust Bowl fetishist is Woody Guthrie. And like Woody Guthrie literally wrote, this machine kills fascist on his guitar. Like he is the defining protest singer of like the last hundred years. So very musically conservative,

but very politically progressive. And then I would contrast him with someone like, say, Grimes, who I think people looked at her as, you know, the epitome of Ford, looking indie music, certainly when she got started. She was perceived that way. And now she's putting up billboards about how global warming is a good thing. So I don't know.

Or Kanye or it's, yeah, exactly. I think we've learned a huge lesson over the past several years that like, you know, musicians, the politics that are projected onto their music don't necessarily carry on to their, like, personality. And also, like, when you become, like, super rich, your politics kind of change. like in ways that might not even be perceptible. So I think that, yeah, it's, you, you can go ahead and, like, assume that, like, your favorite are share your politics, but it's going to be, like, you know, you're always

going to end up being disappointed. Also, I think we need to point out that, like, when Mumford and Sons got kicked out of Claremont Lounge, which is, like, kind of a renowned Atlanta strip club, like, Winston was the guy, like, causing a ruckus on stage. So, really? This guy's done. Yeah. Yeah.

Look it up. It happened in 2013. Mumford and Sons, I think they, like, I think they were taking pictures inside the Claremont Lounge, and that's why they got kicked out. And I think, yeah, Winston was the guy causing a ruckus. So, I mean, I don't know. Maybe, maybe this, these are all steps to the Winston tell-all, you know, that will come in a few. He's had some strikes against them. It sounds like he was on strike seven or eight at this point, you know, because that's going back to 2013.

Maybe he's just that good at Banjo. Yeah, well, he's like the bad boy. banjo player. He's given the Mumford and Sons some edge. I don't know. I assume, though, that they're going to hire a new banjo player. So, you know, dust off your banjos. You can join Mumford and Sons. I think that'd be amazing. Yeah. Listen, Marcus, if you're listening, I played banjo like a few times when Sufion put out like seven swans. I won't say anything alt-right. I think I'm the guy for the job, dude. All right. You heard it here first. That'd be amazing. That'd be amazing if you joined the band. Real dream job. This is how dreams happen, Steve. Hustle and grind.

Before we get to our letters, do we want to talk it all about music's biggest night? That's coming up in a few days. Do we have anything to say about that? Are we talking about 3-11 day? No, I'm talking about the Grammys. I'm talking about the Grammy Awards. Like, honestly, dude, like, I am... This is... is our, we are, this is a mailbag episode for our listeners. So maybe if anything like interesting happens, maybe if like, I don't know, Phoebe Bridger smash is a banjo as like a protest, like we can have some, you know, hot takes for that. But like, I, like, for real though, I don't even, like, I'm not saying this is like someone who's trying to like present themselves like as above the

Grammys or do like a sports ball type tweet. I just don't really know. who's nominated for much of anything. I was trying to think of this too. I know, is Fiona Apple up for album of the year? No, I feel like people were mad because she wasn't up for enough awards. Okay, yeah, I think it was a, I think people took it as a given that Fetch the Bold Cutters would at least get nominated and then inevitably lose to like black pumas.

Like Taylor Swift is a, Taylor Swift probably is up for a lot of things, Maybe. Isn't like Jacob Collier up there? Like whoever that is? Yes, yes. And Black Pumas. That's another one. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, like Black Pumas, I think they're definitely going to win.

Yeah. Album of the year. Janay Iko, Black Pua's Colplay, the Cole Play album. Oh, right. Post Malone. Yeah. Oh, my, like this, I remember the announcements and like how people were mad. It's like, oh, even Colplay forgot they put out that album.

So people, so people who don't. care about the Grammys are going to be very upset when Hame doesn't win album of the year, because they're not going to win, because that's the album that probably should win and it won't win. Oh, I think we got Taylor Swift up there, Taylor Swift up there. I mean, I think that... I think she'll probably make it. It's going to be one of those.

Yeah. Although it's weird, the Grammys, they've been pulling like curveballs lately where the person you would assume is going to win, doesn't win. So that's why I think that... The deluxe edition of the Black Puma's record, which I love that it's distinguished as like, yeah, it's not the original release. This album came out in like 2018 or something like that, right? But yeah, but there was a deluxe edition.

Presumably there's some live tracks on it and outtakes. So that was nominated, which seems like, what? Like, they can do that. Like, if you just re-release the record that came out two years ago, then the re-release can get nominated. I don't know, Grammys. That seems kind of bizarre to me. I will say this, though. The one thing I'm looking forward to is the best metal performance

because you have a chance where Code Orange might actually win a Grammy. I think they're going to give it to Power Trip after Riley Gail died. That would be, I mean, it's a live version of a song for Power Trip. But I am like either they're going to win a Grammy or Code Orange is going to win a Grammy or like Body Count is going to win that best metal performance. So I don't know. I think that's going to be, I think that's something to look forward to. Well, listen to us sounding interested in the Grammys.

Yeah, here we are. We're a couple of music industry professionals. We're mustering up interest in the Grammys. My one thing that I'm curious about with the Grammys is who is the legendary musician that they're going to leave out of the in-memorium segment. There's always like at least one or two egregious oversights that people, it's so funny because I imagine that whoever puts that segment together works on it for months. There's probably a lot of thoughtful conversation about who to put in there.

And then as soon as that airs, you have a million people who instantly notice the one person they forgot. You know, it's amazing how the hive mind can just suss that out so quickly. I wonder if they're going to put the banjo player from Mumford & Sons in the Immemorial segment, since he was just executed by his father, Mumford. A tragic story indeed. Let's get to our mailbag here. And as I said earlier, this is a special mailbag because we're only answering questions in this episode.

And I feel really fortunate that we have such thoughtful and smart and great listeners because there's nothing going on really lately. And March is a dead zone of new releases. Yeah, usually it's because like, you know, there's South by Southwest happening and people don't want to drop new albums in that time. Yeah, there is nothing. It's still like that ghost, that phantom limb of South by Southwest affecting us as we speak. Yeah. So we're answering questions and what a great alternative to have.

Engaging with the Indycast listener. Yes. Our first letter, this isn't really a question, but I thought it made a really good point. and I wanted to read it. It comes from a listener name Elena. She says, Hey, Stephen and Ian, I'm really enjoying the show and so look forward to starting my Friday mornings with it.

Ian was actually one of the first music critics I was ever aware of because he reviewed a Tokyo Police Club album when I was in high school, and I was really into that band at the time. Not so much anymore, but Champ just celebrated the 10th anniversary last week, and I can confirm that it absolutely rocks.

This is not going to be the last Tokyo Police Club reference in this episode, by the way. I love our listeners. Yeah, it's crazy. I'm reaching out to actually address a mailbag question from last week about how music blogs have begun covering more pop musicians in the last few years. I appreciated your thoughtful response about the changing nature of media and the internet and definitely prompted me to consider my own consumption of music in music writing.

That being said, I was somewhat frustrated with how your answer failed to address what felt to me like a pretty obviously sexist framing of that question. Of course, there's nothing wrong with not liking certain musicians, but suggesting that Taylor Swift, Lana Del Rey, and Billy Eilish are all collectively talentless hacks, reflects deep ignorance of the creative process of these artists, their reputation among critics and fans, in the music that they make.

Even if it wasn't intentional, suggesting that the presence of these women inherently degrades the quality of a publication shows a significant bias that, frankly, a lot of men I've encountered, as a longtime indie rock fan, seemed to have against female pop artists. To me, the growing coverage of pop music in more serious,

that's in quotes, music writing, is also reflective of a Masteads becoming more diverse. Indy rock and rock journalism has historically been very white and very male. And as that has changed, the content covered has as well. Additionally, genre is an imperfect way to categorize music, and many women and artists of color are lumped into pop or hip-hop R&B categories that would likely be categorized as indie if white men were making it.

I would challenge this listener to actually listen to some of the music of the artist he mentioned and see if their work sounds that much different than what he likes, or at the very least explain why it is so bad. that doesn't deserve to be engaged with critically. I don't think any of this is news to you, and I could tell you that you did not agree with the framing of the question and just chose to go in a different direction with your answer. Still, I found that these sorts of guys listened to you more than they would me,

and I would really appreciate hearing you suggest that maybe the listener should consider why exactly he thinks what he does about those artists, especially given the sense that he isn't so familiar with their work. So I guess, anyway, this isn't really a question, but I've been thinking about this all weekend. Again, I'm sure none of this is out of left field for you. I'm only reaching out because I understand you both to be thoughtful in the way you think about and discuss music.

Thanks again for making the pod, and I look forward to tuning in later this week. All the best, Elena. Elena, everything you said there was extremely on point and accurate, and it makes me sad to hear you say that, like, that listener who wrote that question or anyone else would listen to me or Ian more than they would listen. to you. I don't doubt that on some level you might be right, but it still makes me sad because

you're obviously a really smart person. I would actually say if there are any podcast magnates out there, hook up with Elena here. She deserves her own show. She's a very smart person, clearly. And yeah, she raises great points. And I will say that when I read that letter, it did occur to me that all the people that were mentioned in there were women. But, um, I'm, you know, For whatever reason, I didn't choose to mention that when we discussed that question. And I think Alana's right. I think that's worth talking about. And it's worth exploring the biases that we all have or what anyone may have when they look at these things.

So I'm glad that you brought that up. And I wanted to make sure that we got that into our episode. Yeah. I mean, we were both kind of taken aback just by like the framework of it. And, you know, it's, it's, first off, I want to say, like, wow, the fact that you read my review of Tokyo Police Club's force field. I mean, like, that was, that was a very minor record. But, yeah, I mean, I think with a lot of the stuff that's happening, a lot of it is a reflection, like, as you said, of, you know, the mastheads diversifying in so many ways. Like, I kind of jokingly refer to a lot of the publications I had written for in the early years as essentially,

fantasy baseball leagues that happened to review albums. And, you know, there was, there was like kind of like a, you know, a locker room camaraderie to it that, you know, at the time, because it, uh, you know, just reiterated things I had already believed. It kind of, it, it, it, it didn't allow me to really see just how many people were like shut out of that world. I mean, so, yeah, I think what's, what happens now is that people see, um, you know, the encroachment of like pop music or like the diversification away from, you know, indie rock, as you say, is like a threat to the natural order, which is, you know, it's not at all a natural order. I think what we're seeing right now is the growth, like, like advances in growing pains of like, you know, catching up with society as a

whole, you know, and, and, you know, it's going to, it's going to be a bit awkward. It's going to be different. And we're all just kind of like learning things as we go along. But I mean, I think that it's kind of like a long overdue you know a long overdue adjustment to you know the people who actually consume music because I really don't think you can say

like I think one of the the for all like I do have like critiques about like the stand culture or like the deification of artists but like you can't say accurately that you know people who listen to pop music like mean it less than you know

the people who listen to more I don't know like more serious quote unquote forms of music. I mean, for a lot of pop fans, like, that is their life. Well, and also, I mean, I would just say that there's room for everybody. I mean, there's room for all kinds of tastes. There's room for all kinds of artists. I mean, we can go on our show and we could talk about indie bands that we like,

and there might be another show where they don't care about those bands, and they're going to talk about other artists. They're going to talk about what they're into. And it's not a zero-sum game. You know, it's not as if this person, or publication is stumping for this kind of music, then that music disappears. It just means that the audience for that kind of music that's not being discussed is just going to go somewhere else. Or they're going to go there too because they like pop music and they also like indie music.

I mean, I think that the idea that there's only people in one camp, it just seems increasingly antiquated. I think people like all kinds of stuff and they go to different places for different things. And that's a healthy thing. It just means that there's more options for people. So, Elena, thank you again for writing in and contributing. Let's move on to our next question. This comes from James. By the way, if you could just tell us where you're from,

some of the people did that. I appreciate it. I just like to hear where our listeners are from. I get excited when we get letters from, like, other countries. It's always cool. Indycast needs to discover where our top markets are. And actually, and James did do that, by the way. He's from North Andover, Massachusetts, so James, thank you for doing that.

He says, hey, Stephen and Ian, I'm hoping to hear what your favorite critical makeup calls are. In sports, if someone commits a flagrant foul and the refs miss it, they will on occasion call a much less obvious foul on another play to make up for the one that they missed. It sometimes feels like this happens in music criticism too, where the music press either ignores a record or gives it a lukewarm score, and then if the record becomes more influential, they'll heap sometimes unwarranted praise on the artist's next prize, as a sort of makeup call for missing the first.

Well, it's not the best example, since Punisher is quite good, I can't help but think that the current Phoebe Bridgers Love Fest is in part due to the hand-waving a way of Stranger in the Alps. A record, I think, is actually better and really stood the test of time since the initial wave of reviews. Can you think of other critical makeup calls? Thank you for putting the show out, for us indie heads. Keep up the great work, James.

Before we start talking about, like, individuals examples of this, Do you think James is on to something here? Do you think this is like an actual phenomenon? Because I do think so. I think he's on to something here. Yeah, James, like using a basketball metaphor to talk about music criticism is like the easiest way to like get to the top of our mailbag. Like that is right up my alley. But yeah, it is something that I think is quite real.

And I think you see it more often with year endless. Like if there's an album that's a little, it happens a lot specifically with like albums that get super pop. popular over the year because like on a year-end list you want to commemorate what was important in the year that passed and maybe an album that didn't quite hit critically becomes like such a huge part of like the narrative of the year that you can't kind of have a year-end list without it. I think that's going to happen this year with driver's license even though like a lot of people I know were like kind of lukewarm on it when it first came out. You're not going to be able to have a year-end list without a driver's license.

And I think that that's what those year-end lists have become. now with songs, I feel like, where it's not necessarily the best song, but it's the most impactful song, like, you know, like WAP being at the top of lists in 2020. I mean, I'm a little skeptical about how often people listen to that song after the week it came out. I mean, I could be totally wrong with that. But it gets referenced a lot and like at my real life job. Like, people still talk about it. So, but as far as like what James is talking about with the next album. I think every album, in some way,

like we think about musicians on a timeline. Like, you know, when a new album comes out, there is a reflection of how excited, like how much excitement is around it. And you mentioned Punisher. Like, I think that, I remember Stranger in the Alts being like

really well, really acclaimed and super popular. Like, yeah, me too. I. Not to the degree the Punisher is, but I think it was interesting because last week. Like, I don't think there was like hand waving away with it. You know, because the reader said, the listener said it was hand waving.

I don't think it was that. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't not get that at all. I just feel like there was a slow build with that record. Yeah. And then the Boy Genius came out. And then there was the Better Oblivion Community Center record. And also Punisher is just a better album. Like, I think that happened with all members of Boy Genius.

Like Julian Baker's first record had kind of this slow build and, you know, Lucy Dacus. all of them like artists get better with time you know they get more confident and they become like they become less a product of their influences like i think on the first feebie bridgers album it was very much in that kind of like folky uh you know kind of Ryan Adams Connor Ober's vein and you know as she became more less beholden to her I mean she started out doing like covers of like Japan droids too so well And also, I mean, to get back to the listener's question, though, about critical makeup calls,

I do think that there are examples of this. I mean, the thing I, the band that came to mind immediately was the 1975, which is, I feel like Phoebe Bridgers in the 1975. We had gone three episodes, I think, without mentioning the 1975. That is a record for Indycast. But that was a band that, you know, they put out their first record, and I don't remember a ton of critical conversation about it. The second record came out.

And that record, I think, was more like a mixed reaction. The second record to me, by the 1975, I like it when you sleep, yada, yada, yada. I think that's their best record. But then the next record came out with Love It If We Made It, and all of a sudden, that's when the conversation about the 1975 being these generational spokespeople started coming. And then that was the record that really got the praise that I think the second record, especially deserved. I think the third record is significantly weaker, but that to me seemed like a total, you know, critical makeup call with that record.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, the first, the thing is, like, they're, in regards to, like, a band getting better with time, like, yeah, the first record, I like it, it's kind of corny, but they just got so much better and more themselves over time. And it is a reflection of, like, kind of, if you can't beat them, join them sort of approach that I think music publications kind of have to take as they are both like there's a critical element and also a news element.

So you kind of like, but you have to look at like why the 1975 was embraced when similar bands who were just as popular like weren't like, you know, say the neighborhood or Bastille or something like that. I think that they just became a much better band. Well, and I think Maddie Healy is also just the better manipulator of the media, which I think helped them a lot. And I say that as a compliment to him. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he's a good talker. And they created a narrative around the band that was more attractive to music critics in a way that I don't know, is there a narrative with the neighborhood? I mean, is there anyone distinctive in that band? I think that's probably where they suffer. Another critical makeup call that I would, I would suggest, is Lana Del Rey,

especially on her last album cycle, which again, I think that record is like a really strong record. But when you read the reviews of it, there was definitely a sense of trying to write the wrongs of critics past. You know, that this was a way for music critics to say that the response that Leonardo D'Rae got early in her career with Born to Die and the controversy about her changing her name and like the Saturday Night Live performance, and all of that stuff. You know, we're here now to write those wrongs, and we're going to call you a genius, and we're going to put you up with, like, some of the greatest singer-songwriters of all time,

which I think at some point became hyperbole with that album. I do think that, again, that's a strong record, but I do feel like it went a little too much in the way that this listener is talking about, that idea that you miss a call early on, so you overcompensate later on, to even the scales. To me, the Lana del Rey situation seems like a great example of that.

And of course, now Lana Del Rey has gotten in hot water, you know, occasionally with various statements that she's made. So I wonder if there's going to be another. I mean, she's had like a couple waves of that. Yeah. She just kind of rolls with the punches. It's pretty phenomenal how she's able to kind of get through it. And I, you know, it just kind of dawned on me, like even more so.

than like Lana Del Rey. Like, I think this is America by Childish Campino is like maybe the most profound example of critical makeup calls. Like, you know, like, I mean, I, we're approaching the 10-year anniversary of my review of Camp, which, you know, I have some regrets about that. Not because I think the record's any good, but yeah, just an artist is popular for long enough and you just kind of have to consider that maybe people are right, particularly if they are on that kind of edge of popularity.

I think Colplay has a component of that as well. A major, major, major, major example of this I saw personally pre-cancellation brand new. Like when science fiction came out, there was just such a huge discrepancy between the way they were considered and like the fan base that you kind of had to roll. with it. I think there's a degree of that with Paramore as well. Those were different critics, though. I think in those two examples

it was more about younger people that grew up with those bands, now being in positions of power where they, and maybe there's an element of that too with Lana Del Rey, because I think there were a lot of people probably who loved her in 2011, who were in

high school, now they're in their 20s and they're writing for music websites and they can talk about how much they love her. I I think a negative example of this might be Kanye West, where I feel like there was, I mean, obviously his albums have gotten worse, but I think of an album, like the life of Pablo, for instance, where if he had made that album when he was mega, would it have gotten the benefit of the doubt that it got from critics? Because I think that record is unfocused, to say the least. But I think because he had so much goodwill at that time, people were willing to say, well, you know, yeah, it's unfocused, but there's so many good ideas here. There's a lot of energy.

It's sort of a unique thing, what he's doing with this record. Whereas his later work, after he went mega, there's no benefit of doubt. There's no goodwill. So people are already coming into this situation, not liking this guy. And then he puts out records that sound unfocused and, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and half formed. And so I feel to some degree that happened with him in the negative sense. Yeah.

For me, it was trail of dead. Like, you should not have to apologize for giving TRIPS-N-0. Oh, yeah. Source Taxing Code's a 10.0, you know. Yeah, justice for Worlds Apart. We are still three years away from the 20th anniversary of Worlds Apart. But when if and when, you know, 2024 happens and there are still music publications, you're going to hear from me about that record.

So let's move on to our next question here. This question is from a long-time listener in Dublin, Ireland, which is awesome. And this reader's name is Stephen. Thank you, Stephen, for writing in. Love the show. I think you both have a really insightful perspective on indie music history and indie culture and great chemistry as host. I've also been on to quite a few new bands that I love because of the pod. So thanks for that.

And then he put a smiley-faced emoji after that. Thank you, Stephen. That's very sweet. Now to the question, as someone from Ireland whose music taste could probably be best described as Ian Cohencore, though I was definitely more into Haydn Corps in college. Okay. I am frequently dismayed and frustrated by the Irish and British music media's tendency to exalt rock music like Fontaine's D.C., idol, shame, and the murder capital. There are tons of good underground emo and punk bands around here who never get any coverage in our local media because they're too busy fawning over bland post-punk pastiche acts.

I'm wondering if the two of you have any insider commentary as to why the music press over here is infatuated with this kind of music and mostly ignores any other genres of rock. Thank you, Stephen. Ian, did you write this question? This smacks of Ian Cohen through and through. We are a legion, you know, we are officially out there. So, I mean, shout out to Steve from, you know, Dublin, Ireland. I did not write this because, you know.

You could have, though. This is like, this is speeding your point of view to a T. And, yeah. I mean, you know, I don't think either one of us are experts on the Irish or British rock press. I can't really speak to why they are attracted to these bands. Some of whom I like more than others. I actually, I've enjoyed shame. I'm like okay on Fontaine's DC.

The Grammy nominated Fontaine's DC, I believe. I mean, I think they're okay. I don't mind them. I don't mind them. I think they're kind of a lame band. But my theory on this is that, and I think this is true in America, and I assume it's probably true also in Europe, is that music critics disproportionately grew up listening to punk and post-punk music from the late 70s and early 80s.

And they read books where it talked about how important that music was. And that just ends up reiterating this idea that there's something inherently exciting and innovative about that kind of music. Even if as Stephen says in his letter, a lot of these bands are pastiche artists essentially. They're repeating what other groups have done in the past a lot better. And, you know, I think you see this in what gets praised and also what gets dismissed. You know, for example, I'm a fan of progressive rock. I like bands that play really long songs with extended instrumental passages, and it's played by really good musicians.

And if you, like, read the punk rock history book, the lesson of that is always that punk rock destroyed progressive rock, and that punk rock was necessary because we had to get rid of that kind of music. So if you are a band that is influenced by Prog Rock, you're likely going to have a much tougher go with music critics. You're going to have to get over that hurdle of like conditioning, of a punk rock conditioning that they had from the time that they were kids. Whereas if it's just a guy in a British accent talking over a guitar riff, that just hits closer to where I think a lot of critics live. Although, I mean, I feel like this is changing. I wonder how many waves of these post-punk bands we're going to have from here on out? Because when I see critics

in their early 20s who are interested in rock music, I don't really see a lot of them who are into this kind of music. They're generally referencing more music from like the 90s and 2000s, which makes sense because of their age. I'm not seeing a lot of romance like for the fall, for instance, among 21, 22 years. I disagree. I think what we're going to see this year, I'm already seeing it happen. You know, it's not going to be bands like, you know, the murder capital or silverbacks. That's another one that you've mentioned. Like it's going to like dry cleaning, squid.

I mean, it just sounds like I'm rattling off random names, but these are like the kind of post-punk bands, which I think you will see in 2021 people gravitate around because they maybe don't quite fit that burly, you know, like like Stephen said, the middle class dudes you met in art college if you do it a little bit differently and I think these bands are but no he he's mentioning this stuff I think as like a phenomenon that is happening in the British Isles but it just reminds me of when people like ask me it's like hey man how come like you know Ice Age like gets all this best new music and like no emo band can and it's like well short answers that like you were saying Steve like more people who write about music on a professional level, just like bands that sound like Ice Age more than they like the ones

that sound like the hotel year. I mean, it's, yeah, like you were saying, I think there are just these bands that are true norths for people who end up writing about music, you know, like Velvet Underground, Sonic Youth. People would say like pavement were a fall rip-off band when they first got started. But, you know, there's just this concept of music that if you have like a guy or, you know, there are more like women fronting these kind of bands as well where there's that kind of monotone over kind of angular

post-punk guitars. It just seems to be the music that people are supposed to grow into and the music that Steven's talking about that gets ignored is the music that tends to get grown out of. Most people by the time they get on to major publications have maybe gone

on past their emo or like pop punk type of phase. And I mean, I mean, I mean, that's just kind of how things work, but I don't know. I think it's, I think at the very least, it's interesting that a lot of this stuff is having its moment right now. Maybe it's proof of like a greater shift from like what Steve was saying, like the 90s sort of alt rock revival that was going on. I mean, it's sort of having, and I, you know, I take your point that I think there's always going to be bands that emulate this kind of music that draw on the canon of a post-punk from. the late 20th century.

I just feel that the trend is for these waves to get more and more marginal. I feel that if it were 10 years ago, a band like Fontaine's DC would be getting more play than they are. I know they got the Grammy nomination, but I don't think that they're central to a conversation that people have about indie music. I think they're looked at as something on the margins that people who write for,

publications who are into rock music, they tend to contextualize these bands as like return of rock bands, like you missed rock bands, or here's a rock band, Fontaine's DC, or idols, this is going to make you love music again. And it kind of makes me laugh that these are the bands that always get pushed in that way

because this kind of music was never popular. Even in its prime, it wasn't super popular. And again, I like a lot of those bands, especially from the first wave, you know, the 80s and 90s bands. I like a lot of those bands, but, you know, they weren't selling big records. I mean, this has never been a commercial or mainstream type of thing. So to sell it as like the return of rock seems a little wishful thinking to me. It just feels again... Danger as return to rock. Maybe it's, you know, going back to our makeup calls conversation,

it always feels like critics trying to... like manifest something that never really happened, you know, that, you know, like these bands didn't take over the world in the 80s, but maybe they can take over the world now. And they're not going to, like they're not going to, they didn't do it then and they're not going to do it now. Some of them are good. But again, yeah, a lot of them are corny. And I just find that myself, even as someone who enjoyed that music, you know, who enjoys like the originators of that music, I just find myself getting bored with a lot of these bands because they're not really doing anything different or I mean it really kind of falls on the songwriting like if these bands don't have great

songs um which many of them don't then it just falls completely flat because what was innovative and exciting about the originators of this kind of music I mean it's been worn thin completely over 40 years I loved this music when I was 23 though I think it was interesting that he brought up that He was into, like he's kind of, this guy, our listener has like shifted more towards listening to like punk and emo in his later years. And it's like, I kind of had a similar thing because like I remember back in the 2003, five band, like all those angular gang of four type bands. I was into that stuff because, you know, like you're, I was more young. I was impressionable. I was reading more of the, you know, the greatest albums of the 70s type list.

And, uh, yeah, I mean, that stuff can sound really. really fresh at the time. But afterwards, like nowadays, listening to that music makes me feel not like I'm like young. It makes me feel like I'm 35. Well, and also I feel like, you know, when you were 23, that would have been around the time of Interpol and editors and bands like that. Yeah. Block party, baby. Who I think are better bands than these other bands that we're talking about. They're more, they're more pop, you know. They have like a greater appeal. Like they have that And they have great songs. Like Black Party had great songs.

Interpol had great songs. Oh, God. It stands up. These other bands, I just don't, I'm not hearing a lot of tunes coming out of these records, which would draw me in, I think, a lot more. We're, of course, running long in this episode. We always run long with our mailbags. I'm going to make an executive decision.

Should we just, like, drop our recommendation corner segment so we can do one more question? or do we need to hit it now, you think? No, listen to the really from record. That's my recommendation corner. Okay, yeah. And I was going to recommend the Painted Shrines record, which is a collaboration between Jeremy Earl of Woods and a guy named Glenn Donaldson

in a really good band called the Reds, Pinks, and Purple's. Yeah. That record's called Heaven and Holy. Definitely check that record out. So I guess that's our short recommendation corner then. We're going to do a trunicated recommendation corner. So we can do one more question here. And this question comes from Kyle, and he's in Victoria, British Columbia.

I've noticed that we have a lot of Canadian listeners out there, which is cool, because I think Canada is a great rock country. You know, they wave the flag, so it's good to hear from our Canadian friends. Hi, Stephen and Ian. through the recent onslaid of 10-year anniversary announcements for albums that have often had at least some significance to me, there's one that piqued my interest enough to inspire this mailback entry. Tokyo Police Club's champ.

Man, we have so many Tokyo Police Club fans out there. They are Canadian, yeah. I remember buying a lesson in crime EP on CD during a trip to Vancouver to see Block Party in 2006. What a sentence that is. That's amazing. That's like a Riley Walker tweet. I love it.

If memory serves, the release was garnering considerable hype. I took a liking to the band and being a fellow Canadian, I've always rooted for them to break through in a major way. They toured a lot, and I feel like I saw them at least once a year for four or five years straight, but the venues were always the same claustrophobic downtown clubs that couldn't have held more than 500 people. I always felt that they had the talent, the ambition, and the songs to transcend the indie rock scene and achieve more widespread acclaim,

if not mainstream success, akin to the aforementioned block party. The relative stagnation of their popularity, particularly after shooting their shot with Champ, has always interested me. I have my own theories as to why, but I'm very curious to hear your thoughts surrounding their music and career trajectory.

That is, if you have any. Love the podcast, loving this isn't happening. I haven't finished it yet, but to say that KDA is important to me is a huge understatement. Thank you, Ian, for championing so many bands that I may not have otherwise discovered. Foxing, Infant Island, Dogleg, to name a few.

Keep up the great work, guys. P.S. Ice Age Rules. Oh, I love it. Kyle, great letter. So, I'm going to make a confession. I have no opinion on this band whatsoever. I listened to Champ before we recorded this morning. Because I was like, I can't name a single Tokyo Police Club song.

I can't even, like, hear one in my head. And I listen to that record. I don't know if I've ever heard that record before. But we had two listeners in this episode make references to this record. So, I mean, do you feel like this is maybe an underrated classic of early 2010's indie? You know, it's interesting that he mentions a champ as being Tokyo Police Club shooting their shot. To me, that's Forse Field. The record, I was listening to that album yesterday.

It came out four years after Champ and it's very, very slick pop record. Sounds a lot like Fountains of Wayne sometimes. You know, we've also gone long on Yeasayer in the past. So Tokyo Police Club is a band that's dear to my heart in that regard of being kind of this, like you were saying, this this burgeoning upper middle class of indie rock. So what I love about Tokyo Police Club is that they, you can't really pin them down to any specific time period or like framework of indie rock which makes them also kind of easy to forget about in retrospect because like they weren't quite OC although you could imagine them as

being like an OC type of band. They're not quite blog rock either because they stood the test of time more. They aren't in that like late 2000s MGMT kind of wave and they're kind of emo adjacent by default because they were on Saddle Creek, but they were definitely not in that realm as well. And I just think it's so fascinating that we got several, like this, and by the way, these two mailback questions about Tokyo Police Club, we've gotten more. Have we? Yes, we, I definitely think we'd have. That's so weird to me, because this band to me, like, does not register at all. You know, you're, like, you were just trying to place them. I associate them with, um, that,

last wave, you know, we've often talked about this on our show where, you know, it seems like indie changed in 2013. And in the years before that, there was this wave of bands that felt like they were, they could have existed in the early aughts, like coming after the strokes. And I associate Tokyo Police Club with that. There's like another record that turned 10 this week, the debut by the vaccines. I made a vaccine joke. What do you want from the vaccines? Yeah. Exactly. I just feel like, oh, and I think the anniversary of that record was March 11th, which is the day where everything shut down. So I feel like the vaccines missed an opportunity here to market themselves. You know, it's like, you've all been waiting for the vaccine.

Oh, God. Well, here we are. You know, they could have done something like that. I don't know. Maybe that would have been crass. But is it fair to group them in, like Tokyo Police Club and vaccines together? The vaccines are kind of, I reviewed a vaccine's record back in 2012, and the NME called them like the return of British rock. So I think they're kind of like a post, post-libertines type act. But Tokyo Police Club, to me, stand with these acts such as like Ra, Ra, Riot or Cold War Kids. Oh, man.

Yeah, no, look, I mean that with all love. But like, I think that Tokyo Police Club is interesting to me, as a band that was critically acclaim, but like never year endless type critical acclaim. They were popular, but like not like they don't have like a famous song. But they've managed to maintain a fan base, you know, that includes people like Kyle. And I think that's like really cool. And I'm trying, like when I think about how my attention towards music has slipped over the years, how I don't feel like I'm really aware of the middle class.

I think of Tokyo Police Club is the kind of band that I miss out on. It's like, who is today's Tokyo Police Club? Because I think if you're not like constantly taking in new music, you're going to miss a band like this. If you're only, you know, looking at year-end lists or like the stuff that's really, you know, topping the charts because they have great songs.

They are just like very much no frills, good, good songs, not reinventing the wheels, like snappy uptrapy upt. tempo type of band. And I say this as a compliment when the last White Reaper album came out when they signed to a major label, I thought to myself, you know what, this is kind of filling that whole of Tokyo Police Club slash major label hot hot heat that I had been missing. And like lo and behold, like White Reaper is now that band that's going to be the one rock band playing Life is Beautiful festival and you know they get new spins like on k rock i think that uh Tokyo police club kind of set the framework for that sort of workman like greatest hits type of band well you you mentioned

cold war kids before and they're they're an intriguing band to me for many of the reasons that you're talking about with Tokyo police club because i think they predate Tokyo police club i think they started they do they started i think in that mid-aughts period where I feel like initially they were... Hang me out to Dry was I think 2008. Was it? Okay. Yeah. Something like that. You know, they're odd.

But anyway, because like Tokyo Police Club, was this their first record, Champ? No, Champ was 2010. Elephant Shell was 2008. And that was kind of seen as an album that didn't really live up to the hype of the EPs. It was Slicker. It was produced by a guy named Chris Zane,

who also did Passion Pit albums. And I think a few Walkman records. So very much of its time. This is like a serious Tokyo Police Club primer. I'm like, I'm learning a lot. Here's the deal with that era. I think that this is a, it was too popular to not be influential. I think you're going to see bands come around, you know, probably in the punk and emo world who,

I know Charlie Bliss, they met in line at a Tokyo Police Club show. I think you're going to see bands that kind of reference that patch. PIC, Cold War Kids, like, late, like first Obama term in the realm? Yeah, I mean, I think to me it reminds me of how Third Eye Blind became a influential band after the fact, because the people who were writing about music in the moment just classified them as this radio band that was disposable. And it was younger people later on who really held up that first record as being one of the great records of that time in a way that I don't think people.

certainly like of my generation would have understood. Like they're listening to that record and not, you know, like the soft bulletin or something. You know, like whatever, like would have been more critically acclaimed in the moment. Getting back to Cold War Kids, though, they're another band that I feel like is probably more influential, too, than gets credit for because they're one of those bands that, it seems like they hang around radio. They are still hanging around, man. And they do well on the road.

And they don't seem to have a strong person. personality or persona. Of monsters and men like that kind of band. Like I hear sometimes those songs on the radio. I'm like, hey man, wait, this is actually good. Wait, this is of monsters and men. Like, when did they start to sound like that, you know? That would be a good, that would be a good Indycast deep dive at some point.

You know, classify these like secretly influential. K rock, yeah, K rock core. There's that other band too. I'm blanking on them that's sort of like Americana-ish band. Boss of the People? No, not them. Oh, what's their name? totally blanking on them.

You did a story on them for Stereo Gum. Oh, Lord Huron. Lord Huron, yeah. I think they're also a band that has like a pretty big following, bigger than a lot of indie bands that get more coverage than them. Yeah, so that will be a future, I think, episode, an indie cast investigation into the secretly influential rock bands of like the last 10 years. But for now, I think we have to wrap up.

actually had one more question, but we'll get to that in a future episode. It's about Kurt Vile, too, which I'm always excited to talk about. But we'll punt that maybe to our next episode. For now, thank you for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixedape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.