Indiecast - New Albums By Mitski And Olivia Rodrigo

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

Those following the Fall Albums Fantasy Draft are probably aware that Steven is off to a big lead, as Olivia Rodrigo's Guts (his no. 1 pick) is already one of the year's best reviewed albums. But how do Steven and Ian feel about it? After a mini "Sportscast" episode featuring a surprisingly contentious debate about NFL vs. college football (7:19), the guys get into the album (19:11). Here's the verdict: the "bubblegum rock" half of the record is really fun. But there are also a ton of melodramatic ballads with intense theater kid energy that are... less fun. Why are critics overlooking the weaknesses of Guts? And is it possible that Rodrigo is more of a singles artist than an album artist?You know who is an albums artist? Mitski. While Steven wasn't a fan of her previous record, 2022's Laurel Hell, he loves her latest work, The Land Is Inhospitable And So Are We, which he considers one of the very best albums of the year (39:00). Ian also likes The Land, though he still prefers her mid-2010s punk/emo era to her current soft rock incarnation.In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks up the latest album by the Chemical Brothers while Steven stumps for the new Wild Pink side project, Lilts.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 154 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndieCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about new albums by Mitzki and Olivia Rodriguez. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's Indycast's new Taylor Swift reporter. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? I mean, we've held a lot of beats in our lifetime. You know, there was a time in Mitz, say, 2011. or 12 where I was like covering every wave side project for pitchfork and then you know covering every Das racist side project. So this is really nothing new to me. You know, it's just it's just a matter of size and scale. So we should clarify for those out there who are not in media circles and social media. There was a post that went up this week from the Tennessean, which is the daily newspaper in Nashville. And it's a job opening for a Taylor Swift reporter.

someone who only reports on Taylor Swift. And this is in a town that is an, it's an industry town, Nashville, obviously, country music. I assume that there will be someone also covering the rest of the music industry in Nashville. But Taylor Swift now is so much her own nation state and pop music that you have to have a reporter in one of America's big industry towns covering. her exclusively. And of course, this news, it prompted a lot of gnashing of teeth among the music writer community. How can this be? How can there be a person only reporting on Taylor Swift? I'm surprised that this didn't already exist in a way, because especially in Nashville, I mean, Taylor Swift is big enough as a cultural force, as a financial money machine, all of it,

to justify this kind of coverage. It is a little weird, though, that in this world where it seems like the musical middle class has been shrunk, or not shrunk, but just like forgotten about. And it's so much focus on just this handful, again, of pop star nation states who are so big, in some ways they're bigger than music itself

or the industry itself. It seems very telling in that regard that Taylor Swift would command this kind of attention. Yeah, I mean, I feel a little bit hypocritical making fun of this because every time we talk about the music or the music writing industry as a whole on this podcast, it's like, hey, they just like, they just like shuttered this place that we really love for the past 20 years. Hey, I used to work here, but hey, this is like job creation. Like Taylor Swift is a job creator. But that being said, I just wonder what the, I don't know, the talent pool is going to be. Are they going to hire like a 22 year old from like Columbia University with like a journalism degree and $200,000 in student loan debt?

Or do you have to be like a seasoned vet of the Taylor Swift beat? You know, it's like Rob Sheffield maybe going to like pivot or is there like a Jordan love to his Aaron Rogers at Rolling Stone? He's just like can't wait for this dude. This guy's never going to fucking retire. I'm going to get my own sort of gig. I mean, I'm interested to see how long that plays out. And also, like, I'm wondering, we're at, like, Pete, you know, we're at Pete Taylor Swift. You know, she's between album cycles, you know, the ERAs tour is happening.

Like, what happens if she, like, decides, yeah, I'm going to, like, not do anything for four months? Because I've been on a college football beat for AOL fan house. Shout out to them. And, boy, you really got to work when it's, like, April. And you're trying to, like, gin up recruiting stories about, like, the mid-tier ACC schools. Like, I'm excited to see. see what they're going to do during like the Taylor Swift off season to the extent that one exists. Well, my feeling about the Taylor Swift job is that in a way it's like being a war correspondent.

Because if you are covering Taylor Swift exclusively, you are dealing with the Swifty Nation who are insane. I think we can safely say that they are insane people. And it's like being in the Middle East and you are war correspondent and you're constantly under You know, like you may need to go into some sort of witness relocation program if you are writing exclusively about Taylor Swift unless you are only going to be putting out fluff pieces. Which maybe that, which is maybe the case. Quick story, I actually applied for a job at the Tennessean about 20 years ago when I was in the daily newspaper world.

The paper I worked at was owned by the same company as the Tennessean. I believe it's still the same company, which would be Ginnett, which is a terrible company. But they owned my paper, and they owned the Tennessean, and I applied at the Tennessean. And, you know, in this period, I applied for probably 100 jobs at least at, like, mid-sized metro papers, you know, trying to get the next step in the ladder of my media career. And I failed every time. The Tennessean was no different. I didn't even get an interview there. But I did talk to the editor on the phone, who was – she was –

nice to take my call. She chatted with me a little bit. And she asked me, like, what websites do you like to read? This was like 2004, 2005. And I said, I like to read Pitchfork. And she's like, I've never heard of that site. So I introduced her to Pitchfork back in the day. So quicks, I don't know. I don't know how much that adds to this whole thing. I felt a personal connection to this because in an alternate universe, maybe I would be at the Tennessean reporting on Taylor Swift. If I had gotten that job, maybe that's where I would be at this moment of time. I think it does add color to this because I just thought of for like maybe the first time in 21 years, like around that time, like 20, 22. And I was like looking for any kind of writing work.

This is what the industry was like in 2022. There was a, I think there was like an arts gig at a Corpus Christi, Texas newspaper. And I think I applied for that job. I heard nothing back, but, you know, I'm thinking about, like, what would it be like to be 22 years old, like living in fucking Corpus Christi, Texas, writing for the arts paper? That's like a Lyle Lovett song waiting to happen right there. I mean, I was living in small town, Wisconsin when I was 23, working for a daily newspaper, which I feel like, like, I'm so grateful for that experience because I feel like when I tell my kids about it, it's like saying I work for the railroads, you know? It seems so old-timey. I mean, there are I guess still jobs like that that you can get as a 23, 24-year-old,

but it seems like that world is definitely on the way out. It's very much diminished. I mean, it was on the way out when I joined it. I feel like I was Tony Soprano. You ever feel like you think. Yeah, I came in at the end of daily newspapers for sure. Can we do a quick sports cast? I fear it won't be quick, but I definitely think we need to do it.

Okay, let's do a quick sportscast. We're going to pause on Indycast. We're going to go into sportscast here because the NFL season started last week. And I just have to say, it was an incredible sports weekend for me. The Packers beat the Bears. Handily. Jordan Love, he's the new quarterback in Green Bay. The Jordan Love era commenced.

He played very well. I believe he had three touchdown passes, no interceptions, looked poised, looked really good. The Vikings, my most hated team, they choked like dogs at home against Baker Mayfield. Beautiful. And look, I'm not happy about this, but I'm just saying I think it shows that the Packers have good karma on their side that Aaron Rogers got hurt immediately in New York.

There's something about Packers' quarterbacks in New York. You got Brett Favre sending photos of his private area. to women. He gets discredited. Aaron Rogers, four snaps in, snaps as Achilles heel. He might be done forever. If Jordan Love goes to the Jets in 15 years, you know, he's going to get assassinated on the tarmac or something.

I feel like the Packers' quarterbacks in New York, it just gets worse and worse with each new iteration. It's like kind of like a 70s movie about like how going to New York, like Death Wish or, I know that takes place in San Francisco, but like you go to New York and it's all gritty and grimy and grimy and, or like the Welcome to the Jungle video or something like that. Death Wish is New York. You're thinking of Dirty Harry. Oh, right. Yeah. Right. Dirty Harry's in San Francisco. So, you know, we make our outlines here and we kind of sketch in some of things we're going to say. You have a very anti-NFL taken in our outline here. I was surprised by this. I knew you're a college football guy, but like you, you don't. don't like the NFL.

I think, well, this is definitely true in week one. Like, every single time in week one, like, the defenses are so far ahead of the offenses in terms of their game planning that, like, you're just going to watch, like, dog shit product for, like, the first couple of weeks. Then the offense figures it out, and, you know, you figure out that maybe, like, six teams aren't total ass as opposed to four. But I like where we're kind of going with, like, your intro, because this is, I think spite watching the NFL is really the only way to go about.

it. Like, I think that just in so many ways it is a inferior product to college, not in the sense that, like, the players are worse, but, like, it somehow managed to be, like, more owner-friendly than a league, than, like, a style of sport, like, the players don't get paid. Although, you know, the Alabama running backs might be getting, like, paid more money one way or the other than, like, an NFL running back who's, like, made the Pro Bowl a couple times. But I- Or that kid that plays quarterback for USC that- Caleb Williams, that guy fucking balls out. He's awesome.

He's got to be making at least a million dollars in NIL money. He's in L.A.? Yeah, and he's underpaid if that's the case. So, wait, okay, so you think college is superior to the NFL? As an emotional experience, it totally is. Because, I mean, I was recommending that you watch the end of the Wyoming, Texas Tech game, which was played in Laramie. It's like ending at like 1130 on a Saturday night.

You got like all the people from Wyoming, like drunk as fuck, washing the field. And it's just like, to me, it's a little more indie rock in terms of like the emotion. You know, maybe they're not like playing as well technically, but there always feels like there's something at stake. There's more regionalism. I mean, like, I wouldn't watch the equivalent. I mean, there is no equivalent of Wyoming, Texas Tech in the NFL. Like, you couldn't fucking pay me to watch the Houston Texans play the Buccaneers or something along those lines.

But like, hey, I got 30 minutes to watch, you know. Colorado play in Nebraska? Absolutely. Okay, well, I'll watch Colorado because of Deon. The Deon Sanders thing is interesting to me. No regionalism in football, like in NFL? Like, you're totally wrong because I was just talking about hating the Vikings. As a Packer fan, this is totally an Upper Midwest thing.

I hate the Bears because of the divisional rivalry. So there's totally regionalism there. I mean more in style of play. Like most of the NFL teams are pretty much interchangeable. Okay, I could, I could, that's totally wrong. I could not disagree with you more there. I mean, look, I'm a Packer fan. So maybe my experience is skewed because the Packers, in a way, are the closest thing to a college football team in the NFL just because of the community that it's in.

It's a small town. And it is the thing in that area. So if you grow up, where I grew up, the Packers, it's just a different level than maybe if you live in New York. Although, I mean, the Giants and the Jets, they have passionate followings. I don't know. College football, to me, with some exceptions, is a four-hour game where people just run into the line of scrimmage for, like, every play. And that's it. Because they don't have, they don't have the players and they don't have, like, the schemes.

It's way simpler as a game. I think unless you're talking about, like, these SEC teams that are clearly better than, like, the rest of. the country. Most games are boring. Like watching, what would you say, Wyoming and Utah? Are you kidding me? Utah's fucking fun to watch because they just like, they are like badass. They just like beat the shit out of you. Are they the team like with the blue field?

That's Boise State. Okay. Yeah. It's just funny because what you're describing like the run into the line of scrimmage, that actually does describe the San Diego State team. But like, I'll tell you this. Like I feel you might be influenced a little bit by like what Wisconsin has been doing for the past 20 years, but they are running the air.

They're running the air raid now. But the difference, but like some teams have no talent. And so they got to run these like bizarre schemes. And that's what you get in college football. Like you'll never see the triple option in the NFL. You'll never see the air raid. I love how like you might see a team with like, you know, like a Georgia tech or like a Stanford that has no recruiting advantages.

So they got to do things differently. And that's where you get like the different styles. But yeah, then you also get like the Georgia's and the Alabama's, which if you want to like really get into like what it's like to be at a game. Like you got go to a tailgate at like Ole Miss or LSU or Georgia. And I think you'll see like kind of the difference between like the college fandom and the NFL fandom. Like you go down to Atlanta. No, no, no, no, no. Because I again, I'm a Packer fan.

I'm an Eagles fan. I mean, we've been memorialized. I know, but you talk about the tailgate. If you go to a tailgate at Lambeau Field, it's unbelievable because it's not just the stadium. It's like the neighborhood around the stadium. You got people parking cars in their yard. They're having like the potluck in the garage.

You're just like bouncing from different house to different house with like a bloody Mary and a plastic cup. It's unbelievable. So again, I think that we're both skewed by our personal experiences. You went to Georgia, which is a great college football school. And I can imagine being there. Yeah, me and me, toasting a solo cup with Mike Mills and Peter Buck. Yeah, it's a fucking party.

And if you were to go to Lambeau Field and experience a Packer game, you would feel differently about the NFL because it is unbelievable. I feel like we have to pause this. This could be like a three-hour throwdown where we just debate NFL versus college football, but we have to end sports cast now and go back to Indycast. And the segue here will be just a quick update on our fantasy draft. here. We did a fantasy fall albums draft last week. And I'm off to a huge start in the first quarter. You haven't had any albums on your team come out yet. I've had two. One is my number one pick,

Olivia Rodriguez. She performed big for me. She got a 90 Metacritic score. At one point, it was 98. And then I got dragged down a little bit by pitchfork. I'm suspecting Dirty Pool on your part. I think you pulled some strings at Pitchfork to lower, because I think she got an 8.0 from Pitchfork. I think you pulled some strings and were like, can we knock this down like from an 8.5, 8.8.8 to an 8. I'm doing an investigation into that. Anyway, that's a 90 though.

It's a really good score. And then Mitzki was my second round pick. Her album's out today. We'll talk about that in a minute. She's currently at a 91. So I'm sitting pretty right now. I don't know if you're getting nervous here. I mean, you have to have two albums that do 90 plus to keep pace with me.

Do you think you have that on your team? I think I got like, I think the bench is deeper. You know, I did kind of budget for this big lead. And by the way, you like many other people on the internet, think I have way more pullet pitchfork than I actually do. I don't know, man. The NCAA of Fantasy Fall album drafts, they're doing an investigation.

Yeah, the corruption runs deep. Yeah, I mean, look, there's one, like, real-life fantasy league that I've been in for, like, the past 15 to 20 years where no matter what happens in the drafts, I pick second, I pick 10th. My team always just completely falls apart in the first week. Like, everyone plays, like, total ass. That happened to me this week. I had T. Higgins. I had DeAndre Swift. I had Isaiah likely because Mark Andrews decided to get injured.

And, you know, I start rethinking this entire, like, fuck, man. I got to go for the Romeo dobs of the world or the Pooka. Dobbs. Okay, gotcha. Romeo Dobbs, my friend. I guess the U is silent. Either way, you know, like, I'm thinking to myself like, man, what could I done differently? Because I think I alluded to this last week.

Like, I should have gone with like the Rocheon Murphy. Like, that would have been like a Tyreek Hill type pick where, you know, I know they're going to put up huge numbers, but I'm like morally opposed to doing that. By the way, like one of the most bizarre. music writer subplots of like the past couple of years where like people have to like bake in the i know they're kind of canceled but like i love this album before so um i i pass on sparkle horse that seemed like easy money right there because it's always going to get reviewed by the 40 year old guy um and that's it right but um i'm confident because i got the deeper bench yeah i was banking on that

with some of my later picks the uh album that only gets seven reviews but it's all by like the 45-year-old guy that, like, always reviews that stuff. Yeah. I think that's, those are, like, good garbage points to get, to pat out the score. Yeah, it's like, it's like, getting a wide receiver for, like, the, like, the 3 and 14 team that, like, gets their ass kicked and always is playing from behind. It's just pure strategy. Yeah, exactly.

You have Taylor Swift, 1989, the Taylor's version coming up. That's, that could be like a 98. I could just see critics, you know, going, like, over, like, over. board with that one. Your Sufion, number one pick, I'm a little intrigued by that. I think that will be well reviewed, but I don't know if it's going to get into the 90 range. I think that could be like a good low to mid-80s, but we'll see. We'll see what happens with that. We'll see how close he gets to the Carrie and Lowell standard. Sequels are never as good as the originals, though. Let's talk about Olivia Rodriguez. Her album, Guts, came out last week. Of course, it's the number one album in the

country. It's the number one most disgust album of the past week. Ian, the discourse on this album, pretty awful. We've moved beyond the original discourse with Olivia Rodriguez. If you remember from past Indy Castes, it was the Ken older people like Olivia Rodrigo conversation. Do you remember that with their first record? That was like a big thing where people were just arguing with no one on the internet forever or like one random person who did like a snorkey tweet

and then you get like 20 think pieces based on that. That was awful. The past week we've had, someone tweeted about how Olivia Rodriguez is a poor excuse for this generation's answer to Avril Levine. That was that thing. Yes. Because Avril Levine is this paragon of musical brilliance

that no one could touch at all and she saccharacicent. So there was that. There was, I don't know if you saw this. There was a, someone on social media was claiming that Olivia Rodriguez invented the 39-minute album. I did not see that. Yeah, this album, Guts, is 39 minutes long.

And because everything has to be over-analyzed, someone analyzed the running length. And they concluded that, this is because of TikTok which I don't really understand because you don't play entire albums on TikTok I don't understand like why and if you did

I mean you can't play a 39 minute album it'd have to be like a minute long album if it was like a minute long album I'd go okay yeah that's because of TikTok but 39 minutes I don't really understand so there was that this is the thing I want to ask you because the thing I've noticed

in a lot of the writing about Olivia Rodriguez, is that there's a real focus on the, like, bubble gum rock aspect of what she does. And if you listen to this record, there are lots of examples of her kind of going into this alt-rock, pop-punk type of sound. There's this song on their ballad of a homeschooled girl, which to me sounds like an amalgam of every Bush single from 16 Stone. And, of course, I'm including glycerine? Maybe not glycerine. We'll take glycerine out of there. All the rockers.

So like four out of five singles from 16th stone. And of course I mean that as a compliment. But that's only about half the record. The other half of the record are these melodramatic piano ballads that I think personally are pretty bad. I don't like her in that mode at all. I like the bubble gum rock songs. but I find it curious that people are either like forgiving that side of her music or they're conveniently forgetting it.

Because to me, like the thing with both of her albums, this album and Sauer, which came out a couple of years ago, is that the rock stuff I enjoy. I like when she's in that mode, but like the ballad part of her is actually a pretty significant part. like her most famous song is still driver's license. That's like her most streamed track. It's been streamed on Spotify almost two billion times. So that's a significant part of what she

does, but I feel like people don't really talk about that. Because I think if they did, this album would not have a 90 Metacritic score. I don't, I think that's way over the top. If there were all the bubble gummy rockers,

then yeah, I could get to a higher score. But like, to me, there's a real strong stench of like Lynn Manuel Miranda Hamilton era stuff that like her generation came up on and I'm sure that was influential to her on some level. And like to me, that's just like musical kryptonite. I cannot stomach that at all. Do you agree with me? Like, do you see this too? Like, I feel like there's a, there's a cringiness to her on the ballad side that is under-discussed. Yeah, it reminds me sort of, I just need to point out,

where we've talked about fantasy football and Olivia Rodriguez, which if I guess, if I can get a taste test of the narrative, apparently these are both very, like, middle-aged man things to do. Middle-aged men love Olivia Rodriguez. I don't know how deep you...

And football, yeah. I don't know how deep you want to get into the Olivia Rodriguez Middle-aged men. connection, but at any rate, yeah, it's there. Yeah, yeah, and it reminds me sort of, like, I'm thrown back to, like, you know, the 90s, like the mid to late 90s where you'd get, like, a hip hop record, and you'd get a CD and, like, skip through all the songs that had, like, an R&B hook or something like that. But, yeah, I mean, the ballot side, like, it's pretty significant, and I know that's, like, not,

It's like kind of a loss leader. But the funny thing is those aren't even the singles. But as far as like, I don't know, the narrative, I mean, I know it sucks. It always sucks. Like, I remember there was like that time where an AI robot was fed like seasons of law and order. And it was able to produce a pretty good semblance of a script. And I feel like we can do this every time a pop album comes out. Because, yeah, you mentioned the, you know, it's not like the new Averill Levine.

and then I saw J. Casby and Kang kind of compare this album to like Godspeed, you Black Emperor or something? What? It, well, it just talks about like, and I think this gets into like why it resonates with middle age men because. Yeah, we're going to get deep in there. Like, anytime like I listen to, you know, see a new pop star of this nature come out, like, I think, would Dave Grohl call this the future of rock? And the answer with Livio Rodriguez, absolutely, because even though it is, you know, is like a new pop star. It's not a new kind of pop star in the same way that like, you know, Lord or Billy

Elish wasn't, you know, right. Sometimes at work, I'll, like, be talking to like 18 or 19 year old kids and it's like, it's just like being on a different planet. Like their frame of reference for like, you know, TikTok or the video games or music. It's like this is stuff that I cannot even begin to grasp. But, you know, the thing that I think appeals. about this is that, you know, you've mentioned Averill and early Paramore. You know, she's bringing the breeders on tour. There's some Varuca Salton there. There's maybe some wet legs. So it brings up

a lot of familiar reference points. But the thing that like prevents me from getting into it, like I didn't say like Lynn Manuel Miranda, but like that was absolutely on my mind when I was listening to it. I think it just kind of embodies this, you know, the theater. kid energy that's coursing through pop culture in so many ways. You know, it just makes me think we need to like have actual nerds and outcasts come back because I just can't, I just can't hang with this sort of thing because it, it's, it's that theater kid energy where it's like, you know, you're singing the plot. That's kind of, aside from the fact that the rapping is super corny, that's what I couldn't

get down with with Hamilton because like the songs are about. plot. It's about the things that are happening and there's no way to translate that in any other way. And also, there's like this, I don't even know what to call it, but we've talked about this on like White Lotus and Mayor of East Town where there's always like one character who's like, you know, 16 or 18 years old. And it's very clear that they're not talking like a teen. They're talking like a 25 to 35 year old writer. Um, just kind of a mouthpiece for the way they see the world. And so, you know, that's all happening. happening. And a part of me wants to think with this album, it's like, okay, well, it's not for me, but it's well executed. But I can't imagine, like, an execution of this thing where I'd actually

like it, you know? Well, I think that just talking about this as an album is different than talking about what she does well. I think both of her albums have, uh, consistency issues. And again, like, it is the ballot thing for me. Like, again, I like bubble gum rock songs. Like, I've always liked that. And I like that she's bringing that energy, you know, into the mainstream culture again. Like, does that song get them back? Which is like, it kind of sounds like loser by Beck. And it has, you know, like a snoddy attitude to it. Like, that's a fun song. And there's other songs on there I like. But the ballads, I think, don't work for me at all. Although I wonder on some level if that is where the juices for her core constituency.

And by that, I don't mean middle-aged men. I mean, like, actual teenagers. Teenagers who are going through heartbreak and they're in their room and they want to listen to something melodramatic. I think driver's license is totally a song that works on that level. And it's not really up to older people to get it. It is aimed at a younger audience and they're going to like it. And I think these rock songs, there is something about them that does feel like it's pitched to an older audience, It's almost like when you go see an animated film and they're making references to pop culture from 40 years ago that no kid is going to get.

But it's for the parents who have to take their kids to the show. There's definitely an element of that on this Olivia Rodriguez album. Just to go back to your Dave Grohl point for a moment, you know, we should talk about like the middle-aged man crown for like young female artists. Because it was Lord for a while. It was. And then Billy Eilish took it. and now Olivia Rodriguez has taken it from Billy Ilish

and maybe Billy's going to come back and take it from Olivia Rodriguez but it is like the young female artist that like Billy Joel Armstrong or like Dave Grohl or you know like the people like those people are going to reference in an interview like yeah she's like the new Nirvana man

like it's Olivia Rodriguez or it's Lord you know like this is the artist you're going to see those quotes about So yeah, I don't know. I find her to be like a pretty charming person. She has like a lot of charisma. And I, yeah, I'm waiting for her to go full on snotty rock songs on an album. I wonder if she'll ever do that.

And maybe she won't because again, like I think the ballad side does have a constituency out there. And for her as an artist, that may be what where her heart is more. I don't know. because this record's very ballady and I don't hear people talking about that it's like when I see people saying oh this sounds like Baruka Salt or it sounds like the Breeders

and I'm like okay maybe for half of the record but it also sounds like Hamilton you know and the Hamilton thing there's way too much of it for me to fully endorse this album well you bring up like the fact that this might actually be a singles artist because I think that is one thing that writers and, you know, ourselves have a lot of trouble grappling with because, I mean,

I don't know when this will ever end, but it seems like music writing is like an album-based format. Like even as like we shift more to covering like pop and dance music and, you know, things which are traditionally single format, you know, the album review and the year-end list are still the, you know, main drivers that, you know, gawkers and people who check in once every you've, you've couple of months hone in on. And I don't, like, I don't know if it would be okay for people to think, like, okay, this is a, you know, paradigm, not maybe not a paradigm shifting, but a generational pop artist who's just like also really good at making singles and maybe isn't best suited to an album format. Because, you know, that's like pretty, like, I think with Carly Ray Jepson, people kind of did that.

they were able to thread that needle but I don't think that's like the case right now you know where it's like you know ice spice has been interesting because this is clearly one of the biggest stars on planet earth right now but hasn't dropped an actual album yet same with like Doja Cat who

is a little bit more difficult to wrangle you know from a music writer perspective even though she is putting out albums it's like what's wrong with being a single what's what I think that's just like like one of the interesting subplots of recent music trends, which is like conflating an artist's importance and popularity with the album format that we have to use. Yeah, no, that's, that's a great point. I think it is interesting that we're actually less inclined now to talk about artists being

great singles artists than we were 20 years ago. Like, I feel like that was more of a conversation where you'd have the Paas and Jop list and you'd have the albums list and you had the singles list and it was like different artists on those lists because it was understood that okay there's some artists

who are really good at making albums and there's other artists who are really good at making like great pop songs that capture the zeitgeist and I think Olivia Roder Avrilavine was one of them yeah exactly exactly

and now I think if someone were to write about Avril Levine and write like the think piece about why she's meaningful they would write about her album And they would make the case for the album, even though the album probably isn't as good as like the two or three best songs. Like there's, I'm sure, a lot of filler on that record. There is.

Just as I think there's a lot of filler on this Olivier Rodrigo album. You know, just to tie this into something that you wrote this week, you wrote a piece for Uprocks about the 1975. You ranked their best songs. And I've often said, and I know you disagree with me, but I think the 1975 are another example of like a really good singles act. and not as good of an album act. I think that their albums generally are very spotty and have like two or three great singles on them. And that I think is their strength more than making albums.

I think the difference is with the 1975 they view themselves as very album-oriented. And so like you see the outline of like, yeah, we are trying to make this, you know, 60 minute, which, you know, is like a triple album, I guess, in TikTok terms. look I didn't read that tweet about Olivia Rodriguez I'm ending the 39 minute album but yeah but by the way give a little plug to my

50 or 30 best the 1975 songs article at uprocks I'm I'm pretty stoked to I was so deeply in fear about how that would be received and none of it came to fucking pass I'm just like so happy that like

you know I put out a 1975 list and like my internet day was not ruined. Maybe I'm just like overthinking things or maybe I'm just like irrelevant as a right. No, I mean I think Maddie Healy, he learned the lesson of the Trump era. The thing that Donald Trump proved is that as long as you just keep moving forward and you don't apologize or dwell on your controversies, people forget, you know, which is a terrible lesson in a lot of ways because it discourages contrition and contemplation of your mistakes. But But it's the truth that in the modern era, like, if you actually show that you feel bad for a mistake that you made and you want to dwell on it, it's just blood in the water. People will not forgive you.

You know, they're just going to keep wrapping you over the head for this mistake. And you're going to be done for it. If you just keep moving forward and you forget that it happened or you, you know, just keep doing other things that are offensive, people are going to forget the old offensive thing. And you're going to be fine. think that's what he learned, Maddie Healy, and it's worked out for him. Yeah. I think they're coming to San Diego in a couple weeks. Maybe I'll have to check that out.

See if, you know, Maddie Healy uncorks some awesome stage banter. But, yeah, it's, I think it's just a matter of presentation. Like, we're talking about, like, Olivia Rodriguez in the 1975, the difference between, you know, a band that presents itself as an album and maybe with Olivia Rodriguez, like, I don't know, just, it's okay to be a singles artist. Like, it'll be interesting to see how this, look, I have no doubt this will be album of the year or top five for a lot of places.

Like, I really, really don't. And I do wonder if there's going to be, like, any contrarian ones where it's like, actually the ballads are the strength of the album. You know what I'm saying? You know, one thing that we haven't talked about yet, and we won't get too much into because we should talk about this Mitzki record,

but is there like a brewing, beef between Rodrigo and Taylor Swift like I'm there's like some intimations out there and like she was asked in a Rolling Stone interview about this and she gave like a non-denial denial about it she said something like I don't pay attention

to this sort of thing and you know I only know four people in my life and those are the people I hang out with she didn't say I love Taylor Swift she's a great person it was like a little bit of a redirect there Is this going to happen? And what's going to happen to our field of study, our field of work?

Is it going to be able to take these two? This is like King Kong and Godzilla going to battle if that happens. Yeah, I mean, maybe this is just the, like, it's the Nashville, Tennessee in trying to, like, gin up some articles for, like, their future Taylor Swift beat person. But, like, I know it's not going to happen. But like Olivia Rodriguez beefing with Taylor Swift would be like this single most interesting thing. Her or basically any artist could do, you know, because like I think what vampire was like intimated to be kind of sort of about Taylor Swift. I haven't dug that far deep into it. Like in the same way that you could, you know, piece through Taylor Swift songs and assume they're about like whatever celebrity you want to project onto it.

Which by the way, there was like some rumors that Taylor Swift was dating Travis Kelsey now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of the intersection of sports and pop culture, but I'm hoping that beef starts. Like, I'm hoping we get like Olivia Rodriguez, Taylor Swift, Cold War. Not because like I want, you know, people fighting each other or I think there can, you know, there can only be one. But, you know, I'm just in it for the content.

I want, I want, look, I wrote a book about rivalries. I love rivalries. I would, I would die for a Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodriguez feud. That would be like $100,000. advance. You got to like rush this thing out by like Christmas. That'd be amazing. Your favorite bet is killing me part two. Olivia Rodriguez, Taylor Swift edition.

Let's talk about Mitzki. New Mitzki album out today. It's called The Land is inhospitable and so are we. This is her seventh album. It comes right on the heels of Laurel Hell, which came out only last year. It came out and I believe in February of 2022. It's about a year and a half ago. and I reviewed this album for Up Rocks and I have to say going into this record

I wasn't sure what to expect I reviewed Laurel Hell I didn't like that record at all I think it's possibly her worst record maybe her debut lush from 2012 maybe that would be worse than Laurel Hell but it's definitely I think in the lower echelon

of Mitzky records so in a way it's like okay is Mitzky in decline or am I just kind of getting out on Mitzky like how do I feel and then I put on this record and I just love it. This is, I think, one of her best records. And it's a definite change from what she has done lately. It's interesting with Mitzki because you can really break her discography down into pairs of records.

You know, and the last two records be the Cowboy and Laurel Hell. She was working this sort of synth pop vein. Before that, you had Puberty 2 and Burying Me at Makeout Creek, which were more of like an indie rock, punk emo style of music. And this new album is yet another change in style. I would describe it as sort of like a soft rock record with country instrumentation.

There's a lot of pedal steel on this record, which is always a bonus for me. If you want to pander to my personal taste, just hire someone to lay on some pedal steel. I'm going to like bump you up at least half a grade for that alone. I feel like she was probably listening to a lot of wise blood while making this record because there are some like a lot of angel olson yeah there's there's vibes of that a little baby of lana del ray from the norman fucking rockwell era like a scale down

version of that but it's definite vibes of that as well but i think even if you can compare her to other artists i think that mitsky's uh lyrical point of view and just her vibe what she brings to the record is so unique and along with i think just the beautiful music on this record and it really is I think the most beautiful album she's ever made. Again, I think it's one of her best, but I think it's unquestionably, like, one of the prettiest records that she's had in her catalog. I really feel like this is a record that only she could have made. It has that Mitzki thing where you feel like the songs are building a very particular

world that can only be described as Mitzki-esque. And to me, that is her strength as a singer-songwriter. And I feel like she got away from that. a little bit on her last two records, which, you know, Laurel Hell is working this 80s pop type vein that, quite frankly, has been drawn upon by so many artists, like, in the last 10 years. Like, I'm really sick of that sound, really, at this point. And it just seemed like Laurel Hell was the kind of record that you make when you're about to go on tour with Harry Stiles and play stadiums. You know, like, it's going to appeal to the masses, but I don't think

it really plays to her strengths. And this record, I think, it feels like a conscious scaling back in a lot of ways, even though I think this record is very grand and lush, but it doesn't have, I think, the same sort of commercial appeal that her previous two records did.

And I'm curious to see how people respond to it. Again, I love this record. I think it's one of the best of the year. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about it. Also, and I don't know if I'm wrong about this, but I feel like there's not as much buzz for this album as I would have expected. And I think, you know, you can point to a couple of reasons for that.

Like, Mitzky hasn't done any interviews on this album cycle. And she did a ton for Laurel Hell. And I imagine, you know, because we're so close to Laurel Hell, it makes sense maybe that she didn't want to talk all that much to the media this time. But that inevitably is going to, you know, maybe tamp down the pre-release conversation about a record. So there's that. the Olivia Rodriguez thing has been so big. Maybe that's overshadowing this album a little bit.

I don't know what it is. Am I wrong? I mean, do you feel like there's maybe like a little lack of anticipation for this? Because Mitzki is one of the biggest stars in indie rock. I mean, she's sort of transcended the indie rock at this point. I just would expect there to be a little bit more hype for this, especially because I think the record is really great. And a lot of the reviews, you know, as I alluded to before, with her Metacritic score of 91,

this is getting great reviews. But I don't know, like the organic conversation of not seeing as much. Am I wrong about that? Well, I mean, I've had a pretty busy week in real life work. So, like, I can't necessarily assume that my lack of engagement with the narrative is, like, what's happening in the real world. But you mentioned this was funny on Stereogum, like their review of it was like the seventh most read article. like it was behind like a Beastie Boys news piece.

So I do get kind of a sense that there isn't, um, she doesn't feel as ascendant as she was in the past. There's like a lot of interesting contradictions going on with the way this album is being kind of treated right now because on the one hand, it's like getting maybe even the best reviews of her entire career. Um, a lot of which seems to be,

um, you know, just kind of based on what was considered a disappointment with Laurel Hell, but like Laurel Hell throughout most of 2020 was an album that got, I think, outperformed its original reviews on Year End list because it was like, you know, an album that broke her through to a popular audience and maybe it was underrated before. So I can't tell where that's going, what's happening right there. But I think all this stuff kind of coalesces for me in being an excellent Mitzky album that doesn't really feel it's at the center of the

narrative. You're right that she's kind of transcended her space as like an indie artist and justice in Mitzky world, which I think is really what she wanted to accomplish all along. You know, it's similar to the conversation we had about the last Lina Del Rey album and that like, you know, Mitzky talked about like, you know, getting her record contract in order. So I imagine that she'll maybe make, you know, more low stakes of albums more frequently and just develop a catalog that is really rewarding and tries a lot of different things and things don't feel as pressure-packed as Laurel Hell did, which is my least favorite Mitzkeye Allen, but like I think one of the best moves for her career because it got her that kind of

platform for mainstream acceptance, and now she can do basically whatever the fuck she wants, you know, similar to, and I think that's what she wanted all along. I don't, I look at like similar artists like Father John Misty or Mac DeMarco who, you know, had a maybe not to the same extent, but like their period of like being over exposed, being overhyped. And, you know, their albums just tend to get memory hold now. But Mitzky is going to be someone who's going to, you know, stick around and make interesting art if she wants to. And if she doesn't, like great. Like, I like this album. Like, will I reach for it over puberty too and make out?

Creek. Probably not because I need that emo shit, but I do hope, and I doubt this is going to be the case, that it's turning its back on that Laurel Hell style 80s synth pop sound. I really hope it becomes a trend. You know, I really hope, like, shying away from that becomes a trend. Oh, it's got to, I think so. Because it's so played out at this point. It really is. It was played out then, too. It was played out then. It's been played out for a while. And if you look at someone like Olivier Rodriguez, if she is a sign of something new, maybe

the reference points are going to change now from 80s pop to like 90s rock. Maybe that's going to be the thing. I don't know. But even then, 90s rock has been like kind of played out too. I mean, I think she pulls it off, but we

just need to like get into some I don't know. I don't know what's left to mine. I feel like in the past 10 years, everything is just been so stripped mind to the point where there's like no real interesting new influences unless we get back to like I don't know

2000 era like IDM lap pop I'm always down for that yeah we'll see I mean it is interesting to think about Mitzky at this point being a legacy artist and maybe that's what this album signals that she now has the quality of catalog and also the size of catalog where every album

she puts out is going to be anticipated and people are going to want to hear it, but it's not going to quite have the same level of like make or break excitement that you have for an artist who's still building their legacy. You know, like where you feel like, oh, this album is going to take them to the next level. Like, Mitzky is at that level now. And it's nice to see her make a record that seems aware of that and isn't trying to chase some sort of trend or audience in a way that, again, I feel like Laurel Hell, for me, like, that's what that album felt like.

And maybe that's why I don't like that record, because I think Mitzky is at her best when she is just, like, in her own world, doing her thing. And I feel like that's what she's doing on this album. And it's so good. I think the songs are really great. And again, just the aesthetic of the record. I mean, it's, you talk about Barry Me at Makeout Creek and People,

in puberty too being more your aesthetic. I mean, this is probably closer to my aesthetic. Although I love those. Those are my other two favorite albums of hers. But I think this album deserves to be in that company. And I think it's one of the best albums of the year. So we'll see how that shakes out as we come into the final quarter here of the year. How this is going to stack up.

But yeah, definitely one of the best albums out recently. And I'm glad it's on my fantasy team. And I'm glad Mitzki is performing for me. Yeah, I just got a docker points, though, because this album is 32 minutes, which, you know, Olivia Rodrigo kind of invented the 39-minute album. So it's kind of sad to see Mitzki ripping off an artist of that nature. Well, she invented the 32-minute album. See?

You know, she's cutting off like about, like, what? Like a 20% off of Olivia Rodriguez, 20% less, but like 20% more impact. The TikTokification of Mitzky. We're going to make that via headline of this episode. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, let's keep with the middle-aged dad thing here

and talk about a new Chemical Brothers record. This is, this one's called For That Beautiful Feeling. It's their 10th album, which seems like there should be more, but, or maybe, I don't know. But in the 2010s, like, they've really been on a hot show. streak, which is really surprising because they could, you know, being a electronic artist at their level, they could totally phone it in at this point. And there really was a time where they were phoning it in. So it's surprising to see them rebound like that and have this late career renaissance. You know, it's funny to, and I'm sure you experience this and like have thoughts about

how in the late 90s there was the, I don't know, the panic that or, you know, the panic that or, you know, the hype that Electronica was going to supplant rock music and all of our favorite alt rock artists from that era, you know, made, you know, made albums that kind of reckoned with that. And it sort of kind of didn't happen. But, you know, now it's interesting when I hear New Chemical Brothers albums, they sound like arena rock to me. Not because there's like guitars necessarily, although the first single on this album is kind of a shoegaze song, but it just has that sort of expanse, and it sounds like it should be playing in an arena.

If you need no further endorsement for this album, they made a good song with Beck in 2023. Like, you realize what an accomplishment that is. Also, they did a not-anoying song with St. Vincent in 2015. So, I mean, and I'm sure you love the fact they made a couple of great songs with Oasis. So the Chemical Brothers, great interpreters and

I mean, it's so strange to say if you want an arena rock sounding album go to a Chemical Brothers record but like to me this just is the shit I'm into. We've talked about Underworld in previous episodes how they kind of have a

similar thing going on. This is the kind of music I never get tired of. So shout to the Chemical Brothers. I feel like a lot of electronic groups eventually move into like an arena rock direction. Like I'm thinking about justice Like they did this some more thing. Oh, yeah.

Well, their second album kind of did. Right? Like, they audio video or something or other. There's songs on there that sound like Def Leppert. Ironically, it's a great album. I love that album. You know, but like they did that. Like, deaf punk to a degree did that.

Like, who else? I had another example in mind that I can't remember right now. I mean, Prodigy was doing that like from Thad of the Land on. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, like, Underworld, like... I was going to say fuck buttons. The fuck buttons, I think, did the same thing, too, where they would just make these, like,

just massive sounding records that, even if they weren't using guitars, it had that same sort of arena rock feel. That's such a great, like, little kind of microgenre of, like, electronic records that draw on arena rock. Like... It's actually funny because I keep seeing the... For Hulu, the Imaginac.

and Dragons documentary in Las Vegas. And like, that is arena rock, but, like, EDM. Like, I mean, that is the kind of, that is the kind of final stop. But, yeah, like, actual electronic artists making arena rock, but it's not rock. Like, that's my favorite. That got to be one of my favorites. Yeah, that's great. It always works.

Very high, you know, consistency there, I think. I want to talk about a duo called Liltz. and I'm talking about LILTS because there isn't a new Wild Pink album this year, at least not yet. So this is like the next best thing if you're looking for more Wild Pink music. This is a duo made up of Laurel Wolf and John Ross of Wild Pink. And it basically sounds like Wild Pink, but like with a female singer. And they have a new EP coming out actually next month. It's called Waiting Around.

It's really good. But you can actually hear half of the EP already on streaming platforms. platforms, including the song Dodge Street, which is the best song on the record. And just like one of the, I think, best singles, if we could talk about singles again, that have come out like in the past few months. Again, it sounds like Wild Pink, especially like the last couple records, but with a female vocalist. And it works great.

And if you like Wild Pink, you're going to like Lilts. And it's a great, I guess, stopgap for those of us, just waiting for a new Wild Pink record. So enjoy this. Have you dipped into this yet? Yeah, it's exactly what you describe it. And, you know, there are some Wild Pink songs recently where they have, you know, like Julia from Rap Boys on there or Julian Baker.

And this is a sap, like this is, it works so well. And Dodge Street, I mean, like, that's the name of like a while. You deaf, like you know what you're getting there. So yeah, great EP. John Ross just can't, like can't seem to write a whack song and just writes a ton of them. So, yeah, I think this is a good stopgap. You know, I don't know what the next move is. For a while, Pink, I know they're constantly writing music.

I feel like they've alluded to maybe making a new album soon. And yeah, whatever they do, you know, I'm in the tank. We'll see what happens. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash, india. and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.