Indiecast - New Albums by The Armed + Ratboys, Plus: Our Favorite Soundtrack Albums

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

This week it was reported that Ed Droste of the fine art-rock band Grizzly Bear is now working as a therapist (:25). That this was news at all speaks to the weird navieté that we as indie-rock fans have about the financial realities of the musicians we love. Steven and Ian begin the episode by talking about the "Joe jobs" of indie-rock lifers, and the potential "indie star to therapist" pipe line.From there, the guys talk about Steven's recent column on the best soundtrack albums of all-time, and why the golden age for soundtracks is from the mid-'80s to the early '00s. While it's true that a big film like Barbie can still spin off a successful soundtrack, the golden age of B and C-tier soundtracks — when an otherwise forgotten film like 1993's Judgment Night can be paired with a famous soundtrack — seems to be over (11:08).After that, Steven and Ian review new albums by hardcore collective The Armed and the Chicago guitar-pop band Ratboys (27:39). In Recommendation Corner (56:01), Ian praises the bloghouse throwback DJ Sabrina The Teenage DJ and Steven gives the nod to the new solo album from Big Thief guitarist Buck Meek.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 152 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndieCast. On this show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about new albums by the Armed and Rat Boys and our favorite soundtrack albums. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's not hiding his dietician double life.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? You're sounding like push a T right now. It's like you are hiding a mental health credential. I think we got to get into it and explain what we're talking about just in case. I think it was making the rounds, but I think that we got to let our listeners who might not be totally online know what we're actually referring to right here. You want to handle that one? Yeah, so there was a story this week about Ed Rosty, who was a singer in the band Grizzly Bear. He posted on his Instagram that he is now a therapist working.

in Los Angeles. And this became a story online. It was actually reported in various places like Pitchfork ran a news item about Ed Roasty being a therapist. And people were digging into LinkedIn pages of different indie rockers of the late aughts in early 2010s. And it was discovered that Lockett Punt of the band Deer Hunter is now working as like a software developer.

And there was some consternation about this. People were cracking joke. There was also, I think, in some corners anyway, like a weirdly smug attitude about this, that I think speaks to how we as the audience still have this idea of how musicians live that doesn't seem to line up with reality. And I wanted to ask you about this, because, you know, I think it's fair to assume that, like, most indie musicians who are active, 10, 15 years ago, if they're not in a big band, they probably work what Wayne Campbell once called

a Joe job. You know, like a regular job. Even if they're still in a band, they probably have to find ways to make ends meet. And I think musicians most of the time try to conceal that

because there is this idea that, you know, if people know that you are working a job, maybe it takes away some mystique from what you do. This is not quite the same thing, but there was that thing a few years ago when the dude from Waves was outed as a landlord. Not a Joe, not a Joe job, by the way. I think that was the problem. No, no. Yeah, but, you know, there was this, it wasn't just that he was a landlord. It was

the fact that he was in waves and like, I think the weird juxtaposition of that. You know, there's also example, this is going back many years, but, you know, Bob Stinson, the guitarist and the replacements, He worked as a pizza chef the entire time he was in the band. Even after they signed to a major label, he was working as a pizza chef. And that's like a different thing because I think that almost added to his mystique as like this regular guy. But I don't know. The way people were talking about this Edrosi thing, I think it just speaks to the weirdness that we have as music fans about the private lives of musicians.

That we want to imagine that they're living this life. an artist when they're offstage, that they're just hanging out in cafes, strumming a guitar, pencil in hand, writing down lyrics, and they don't have to just make a living like the rest of us. You know what I mean? Because it's like, if this is actually being reported as news, you know what I mean? I think it does reflect a certain naivete that we still have as music fans about how our favorite musicians live. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I made my little blog rock list the other week, I couldn't tell you how not maybe disillusioned I was that like one of the keyboardists from annuals is now like a corporate partner, a DLA Piper. But, you know, like Ed posts this on his Instagram and I guess that makes it quasi public. But I want to just say like I think the fact that he's like a therapist as opposed to like someone who I don't know went to grad school for like bioengineering. or something like that makes it a little more newsworthy,

because I think we're officially on Trendwatch with this. I think didn't Sharon Van Nettin say that she's like going back to school to be a therapist? Yeah, like on one of her album cycle, she was talking about that. And I don't know if it's necessarily the same thing. Because again, like I don't, this story is a reminder that we don't know how much musicians actually made. Yeah. I mean, my sense of Sharon Van Nettin is that she is like a pretty, you know, big star in the indie sphere.

I don't know if she would have to work as a therapist to get by. Because I interviewed her about this. My impression was that she was doing it because she was interested in it. And it was just something that she wanted to pursue. And maybe she will end up practicing. But I think she was interested in doing it. But it wasn't necessarily a, you know, I need another career in order to make my rent. And that makes sense.

I mean, like, yeah, look at my therapy. therapist dog. I'm going to pitchfork fest. Because like therapist is an interest. This is very interesting to me just as someone who works in the mental health field because it's kind of a hot job right now. Like I was talking with some other people about this and they just like younger people and they describe therapist as and this is their words, not mine, like a very millennial plan B in that, you know, you can do it as like a second career. You can do it through like night classes or online and I think about like the field of their like therapists right now it's it's very much a I don't want to say it's like a bubble but you know the when I talk to people who have been in it

for a while they think it's like being flooded with too many unqualified people who like take on like a lot of debt and you don't make as much money as you think you do and you got to have to like hustle super hard to get like a client base to make it sustainable. And you know what? Like it sounds a fuck of a lot like indie rock right now. You know, you should feel right at home having to do it. But also, you know, you get like maybe a satisfaction that you help the people out. But I don't like what I'm interested in seeing in the future is if, I mean, most of the

therapists I know like really try to compartmentalize their private life. like I don't like I don't mention I don't mention the podcast to the people I work with and you know most therapists I know like have a private Instagram

like if you try to add them on Facebook they'll probably use their first name and middle name not their first and last name because they want to like you know some people are better with boundaries than others you know and maybe that's maybe that's changing with like TikTok and everything but I'm just trying to think of like

what it might be like to sit across from like a therapist and paying $150 a week and be like, dude, this guy kind of half ass it through painted ruins. How would that influence the dynamic? Well, that's the thing,

you know, because like, you know, Ed Drosso, he posted this on his Instagram. He has over 500,000 followers on Instagram. So there's still like, there's like a lot of,

you know, indie rock fans that are still following him. He's practicing in Los Angeles. So I imagine. I imagine that there would be a lot of people there who know who Grizzly Bear is. Maybe they heard the song Cheerleader and they're like, this guy understands me. So I need to go see him as a therapist. I mean, I feel like in order to avoid that, he needs to move to like Green Bay, Wisconsin.

Where there's not as big of an indie rock community, I think it'd be easier for him to blend in there. I think in L.A., you are more likely to get people who are just fans that want to feel like, oh, you know, I love Yellow House and this was a big record for me when I was, you know, in 2006. So he must have some insights into what my mental health is, you know, here in person. I'd be curious if that'd be a problem for him moving forward. Well, I think in L.A. may make it like less of a deal because, you know, you'll probably have some, you know, patients who themselves are in entertainment. And, you know, it wouldn't be a big deal. You know, it's someone who could understand, you know, what, what you're going through. I think that's like a dynamic that people who've lived in L.A.

I understand it's like if you're a celebrity, you blend in. Like it's not a big deal. People won't stop you on the street. So maybe that's the move. I'm not going to read his mind. But I think this is, this is stories interesting in many ways to me. Also because Grizzly Bear was like one of the first big, bigger indie artists who were pretty outright about, hey, y'all, we don't make as much money as you think. This was like 2012.

There was like a New York Times or something profile. And if you're, look, if you're a music writer who's like 40-something years old, I'm going to like use the phrase full Benny's and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about in terms of. That's a deep. Yeah, that's a. You're playing with fire right now, my friend. But yeah, I mean, like people were just like sort of amazed like, what, wait a minute, like grizzly bear aren't millionaires and I don't know, maybe.

Apparently Ed Dross. I don't know how to pronounce. has his name, but apparently he has a cousin also named Ed who co-founded Hooters. Like, I need, like, citation. Oh, wow. Citation needed for that, but that's what people found on his, on his Wikipedia page, not his LinkedIn. Citation needed.

We need the intern on that. My point about, you know, just to go back, suggesting that Ed moved to Green Bay, you know, in order to avoid grizzly bear stockers, my point was just that, like, in Los Angeles is, like, one of the only cities where he is a celebrity. Like in most of the country he's not a celebrity Like most people don't know Who Grizzly Bear is outside of like four or five major Media centers

So and also I just think it'd be funny to imagine Ed Drosty moving to Green Bay I think that could be like a sit down Yeah that's like a Netflix movie Like a popular indie rocker His band breaks up So he moves to I mean Green Bay is a small town really It's a hundred thousand people

But you move there And you start practicing as a therapist, sort of like a northern exposure. Yes, exactly. Meets high fidelity, meets, you maybe put some Ted Lassau in there as well. Because Ted Lassow is commercial. You have some sort of inspirational element to it.

I think it could be good. I wanted to talk to you, Ian, about movie soundtrack albums. Oh, yeah. But soundtrack albums in general. Because I wrote a column this week about my 50 favorite soundtrack. album and it got a good response. The response to me was very interesting because, well, first of all, I was inspired to write this column because one of the bigger albums of the summer is Barbie the album, the soundtrack,

of course, to the Greta Gerwig Blockbuster that's taken over the zeitgeist this summer. And that album has already spawned two popular singles, one by Duolipa and the other by Ice Spice and Nikki Minaj playing off the Agua hit Barbie girl from the 90s. Is he say Agua? Isn't Agua? I think it's Aqua.

Aqua? Maybe that's a, maybe that's a, maybe that's an upper Midwest dialect. I don't know. I was saying it, I was saying it the Spanish way, perhaps. Anyway, it was interesting to me because the idea of like the Blockbuster soundtrack album has become more of a novelty, really, in the past. know, five, ten,

15 years. You will have occasionally an album like Barbie, the album, there was Minions, the Rise of Gru's soundtrack. I think that had some impact on the culture.

But, you know, as I was digging into soundtracks, especially soundtracks from like what I would consider the golden age of soundtrack albums, the mid-80s to like

the early 2000s. It really is amazing like how many B-tier, C-tier, D-tier soundtracks there are. It's not just the bar. Barbies of the world, these humongous movies.

There's so many soundtracks in the past. And, like, you know, I had 50 on mine. I really tried to put a premium on soundtracks that don't always end up on these kinds of lists. Soundtracks that, in my mind, have a standalone identity outside of the film. Irregardless of how the songs are actually used in the movie, it's more about the soundtrack. Soundtracks from bad movies, which I think is a huge genre of soundtracks.

That could have been its own list. That could have been its own list. But it was amazing to me because I had a lot of people, of course, responding, giving me feedback, you know, talking about soundtracks I missed. And it just reiterated this idea of like how many just, in my mind, seemed like kind of marginal soundtracks, actually had a huge impact.

Like multiple people talking to me about the Spawn soundtrack, including my editor Phil. Yeah. My first note from Phil was Wise and Spawn. Well, the first note was, I'm glad judgment night is on your list. And the second one was Wise and Spawn on the list. But like Spawn, Angus, people talking to me about return of the living dead too.

People talking to me about the Meet the Dietl soundtrack. You know, things like this. And it just, again, brought home this idea that I think for a certain period of time, like soundtracks were a way for people to procure songs in a really, relatively inexpensive way in a time where maybe it was hard to buy multiple CDs so you could get all these songs in one place. One soundtrack I wrote about was the Cruel Intentions soundtrack, which I think is a really good soundtrack. And it has, of course, your favorite band placebo right at the top. I agree that that might be their best song. I think you kind of, you might

have nailed that one. That's a great song. But then you also have things like Bittersweet Symphony by the verb. You have praise you by Fat Boy Slim. Just two ubiquitous songs in the late 90s that you would want on one CD if you weren't interested in buying the entire Verve record or the entire Fat Boy Slim record. And of course, that's a situation that we don't have now. People don't need to worry about buying a song on a CD. Everything is streaming. But I don't know. I'm curious about your thoughts on this, because I don't think this is purely just a nostalgic exercise to focus mainly on that sort of 20-year period. I think that that was the magic time for soundtracks, and I don't think it's a coincidence that once people had the option of either buying a song

a la carte or a little bit after that streaming any song that they want, that soundtrack just became less important. Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of we don't have any like movie makers who were greatly inspired by the last action hero. I think it's, there's probably some sort of arcane business stuff that prevents us from having, you know, your great expectations, your last action heroes, or even the stuff that I, you know, the really low grade rap soundtracks, like high school high or New Jersey drive, that would, you would forget this movie entirely, but like it would have like a really cool red man song or something like that.

But yeah, I think we see more stratification, you know, Barbie, like prior to that, maybe Black Panther was the big soundtrack of like original music or, you know, you might get like Dan Deakin or Win Otricks Point Never soundtracking like a Safdi Brothers movie. But yeah, there's not that like that middle class of like movies that are utterly forgettable, but they spawn like one alt rock hit. And, you know, I can't imagine, you know, a future where there's going to be like a purple rain or a harder they come or like a bodyguard on. on like the best albums of the decade list. I think we're poor for it. I would just, I would actually love to know

what a younger person thinks about it. But, you know, I think the bigger issue is that, especially with like TV shows nowadays, because you would think that like maybe that would pick up the slack in terms of, you know, like soundtracks that are important and they're a little more like, you know, they have finesse and maneuverability. But I can't, I can't figure out why they haven't remade the crow yet.

which is another like really iconic soundtrack because it had like this very distinct sort of sound like it had it was very goth but it also had Pantera on it for some reason and I think in rather than like getting original music like the new crow would probably just like strip mine old

like echo in the bunny men or joy division songs like rather than getting nine inch nails to cover you know lost souls or like getting Interpol to do their late career triumph version of the cures burn. Just with most things in entertainment, lack of imagination, but I really appreciate you putting this soundtrack out there and also like giving a shout to the things that like the the movie soundtracks that like I cannot remember this movie actually happening.

Yeah, and that to me is like the most interesting kind of soundtrack and that's the one that I wanted to focus on because you talk about TV shows. Obviously there's the stranger things. where they're taking old songs, putting them in the show, and turning them into hits. And on a much smaller scale, you have a show like The Bear, which people are excited about the soundtrack of that. But it's a little bit different because I think, again, when we talked about The Bear or Stranger Things, it's tied up in the show itself.

Like, people are drawn to the song because of how the show used it in a scene, in, you know, with these characters that they love and it has a special residence for that reason. And like I'm, I'd love analyzing like how songs are used in films and TV shows. Like that's something I find really interesting. But like for this column, I set that aside and decided to write about something a little bit different,

which again is this idea of like a soundtrack album that has an identity as an album separate from the film where the film is almost irrelevant to what the soundtrack is. You know, Judgment Night, I think is a really good example of this because this is a film that, I mean, I've never seen the movie. I feel like most people have it. I've not seen it. Fuck no.

See, I thought I saw it, but then I realized that I saw a different film called Trespass that Walter Hill directed that has like a very similar concept. It's like these guys trying to like get drug money. out of a house or like they're trapped in a house something like that. That had a good soundtrack if I remember correctly. Yeah because I think Ice Tea is in trespass. Yeah, I Cooter apparently. It's like

Gangstar and Rai Cooter. Yeah, Rai Cooter. Someone was getting mad at me because I didn't have any Rai Cooter albums on my list. I had a subset category of like celebrity rockers making

instrumentals albums and that's like Mark Knopfler doing local hero, Young doing Dead Man. Richard Thompson did the Grizzly Man soundtrack for Werner Herzog. And that to me is more like a score than a soundtrack. And I tried not to put scores on here because I think that's a different kind of thing. But going back to Judgment Night, it's such a perfect example of the film being irrelevant to the soundtrack.

And the soundtrack also having a really strong identity as being this sort of like proto, new metal or rap rock record. you had rock bands and rappers collaborating together in this way that was really unique in 1993 when that album came out and five years later was basically

like the sound of mainstream rock. But that I think is really interesting thing because I think that there are a lot of soundtracks like that that capture a moment in time and also like a musical movement. You know, like I wrote

about this jokingly but there are a bunch of soundtracks that came out in the early aughts that are basically like new metal compilation records like the Mission Impossible 2 soundtrack or the Scream 3 soundtrack like these movies that

otherwise have no relationship to music you know it's like why does Mission Impossible 2 have a soundtrack with like Metallica, Limp Biscuit and God smack songs on it you know like because there's really no other Mission Impossible movie like that it was only Mission Impossible too, where all of a sudden we're going to have this like agro dude soundtrack

accompanying the film. It's just sort of like an odd thing that that happened. But at the same time, if you listen to that album, it actually captures the sound of the year 2000. You know, like there's... Totally. Like it's like it's a, it has anthropological value for that reason. This album that doesn't need to exist, it is kind of like a piece of junk in some ways. But if you want to go back and study what music was like in the year 2000, like the Mission Impossible to soundtrack is actually kind of valuable for that reason. On the note of like, hey, this really captures a moment in time. I want to circle back to meet the Dietles because we just kind of glossed over that.

But this is an album from 1998 that has, you know, Weezer and the Cure were like killing it on the soundtrack front. It's got dance all crashers, Goldfinger, Cherry Pop and Daddies, Gary Hoey. Raddish, like, 1990, Meet the Deals might be like one of the most, you know, on point 1998 trend pieces because it's getting kind of into swing music, but also ska. Right.

And kind of sort of Weezer. And they're like the, all roads lead to Weezer on that front. So, yeah, we might need like a part two. I actually, I love it. I got a text from a friend of mine asking why the Meet the Deedle soundtrack wasn't on the list. I had so many people reach out to me

mentioning soundtracks that they, again, were insisting, like, this is one of my favorite albums ever. And it would be like the Vision Quest soundtrack or the Cocktail soundtrack. You know, like these soundtrack, I mean, Cocktail has Kokomo on it by the Beach Boys, so that's kind of like a big thing. But just these soundtracks that I think,

again, might scan as marginal, but there's actually like a lot of people that have like a serious relationship with these records. And again, like we, it's not that soundtrack albums are dead, but it does seem like the B, C, and D-tier soundtracks are dead. You know, like we're not getting those anymore. Yeah, you're going to get Black Panther, which is a huge movie, and you're going to bring a Kendrick Lamar to do it. And then, like, the Lion King remake that Beyonce was involved in. Yeah, these are huge movies. But, like, is, like, the Meg 2, does that have a soundtrack?

You know, there's, like, strays, that movie that just came out about talking dogs. Well, they're all old songs. That, like, the Meg 2 would have made a... That's exactly the kind of movie that needs a soundtrack, because you just need, like, the kind of new, new metal junk on there. Like, you need your... rival sons or like those bands that you see opening for like you know 2023 smashing pumpkins tours missed opportunity also like this is us basically saying hey if you work on a movie like this

just let let indecast handle the soundtrack i think you're going to like have a longer shelf life than you might otherwise well and you know just as you were talking about that i mean i do think that this was a way for lesser known bands to at least get a payday. And if more than that, a leg up and exposing, getting exposed to a wider audience, like one soundtrack I really wanted to write about when I started this list, like one of the reasons I wanted to do this column was I need an excuse to write about the Batman Forever soundtrack, which, oh, fuck yeah, which is a, that's like another, because you think about Batman movies now, they're very self-serious, you know, you would never think of like putting a song

by Seal, kissed from a rose and a Batman soundtrack now, unless there was some sort of like slowed down emo, like gotthy version of it, some, you know, by a children's choir or something. But among the songs that are on that soundtrack is a Sunny Day real estate song from their second record. Like, Sunny Day real estate at the time,

not that well known. And they're put on the soundtrack with like you two and PJ Harvey and, you know, I'm... Method, man. by far the best-selling record that Sunny Day real estate has ever been involved in in their career. And it's pretty cool that they got to be put in that context just because there was this market for soundtracks. It's like, okay, we need 15 songs. And I mean, I would love to know how that song ended up on that soundtrack. I don't know if there was some sort of like shared record label

or like a manager new Joel Schumacher or something. I don't know. I, I, I, I, Because I don't think that song is actually in the film, but it's on the soundtrack. But yeah, it feels like this is something that it was just a part of a different kind of music industry. And it allowed, I think, middle class of artists to be sustained as well. You know, like the middle class of soundtracks is gone. And it feels like that's also eroded at the middle class of musicians in music. Yeah. And I think this ties into not just like, you know,

a guy like Ed Drost, and again, time will tell which pronunciation. Is it Drost or Drost? I don't assume it was Drosty, but I'm probably wrong. I'm fucking fine. We're probably going to find out, probably going to find out. But like, you know, this talk, like this gets into like why people like him are becoming therapist. And I also think that like, you know, the bands we're going to talk about today, the armed

and rap boys, like occupying like a sort of middle space between, you know, being a big act and also like being unsustainable. So it all just comes back to the eroding middle class. Well, let's get to our albums this week because it's been a while since we've like reviewed albums on this show. It's been in the dog days of summer. Not a ton on the release calendar, although that's going to be changing as we get into the fall. There's going to be a lot of stuff, big releases to get into. But the first album we're going to talk about is called Perfect Saviors. It's by this band The Armed. They are. And that anonymous American hardcore musical collective. They're out of Detroit, Michigan. They've been

active since 2009. And the mystery of this band, I guess, is that no one is really sure who's in this band. There's like a revolving door of people coming in and out. There's this sort of like pranksterish, playful obfuscation of like what is real and what is not, I guess, with this group. I do find it funny that the mystery aspect of this band is played up so much in like the million magazine profiles that I've seen about this band. Like, you know, you're so mysterious that like everyone is writing about you. I don't know. I want to get your take on this band because just in general, I've liked what they've done. I've liked not loved what they've done in the past.

and I would say the same is true from what I've heard of this latest record. And am I wrong to be a little cynical about how they've been marketed? Because all of this sort of mystery about the group, I don't see it adding up to anything other than clever marketing. And maybe that's just because I think they're a good band but not a great band. Like if they were a great band, maybe I'd be more curious about who they are. but all of this stuff that people write about with them, it leaves me a little cold.

Like, I'm not as intrigued maybe as I should be. And maybe that's because the art itself hasn't moved me much beyond just sort of enjoying it in the moment. And then I feel like it kind of washes over me as soon as I'm done listening to it. Yeah, I don't think you're wrong about that. You know, you mentioned up top that they are anonymous and, you know, that's no longer true. I mean, in the beginning, there were, like, rumor. there were rumors that like Tony Hawk was somehow involved or that the drummer from Converge was putting it all together. Andrew W.K. was seen as like a possible contributor, you know, being from Detroit and all that.

And look, I interviewed them over Zoom. I interviewed the lead singer who was going by Adam Volele. And I'm like, I know this isn't the dude's name. Like I know I'm getting played to some degree. Clark, huge, the bodybuilder who played a big part in the ultra pop rollout was involved as well. And yeah, I think with them, there's just been a lot of really fun pranks. And I think that's satisfied a certain desire for, you know, like, for, for, for like mischief in this direction. Because I think that, like, with so much rock music nowadays, there's, like, this expectation that, like, you know, the artist is going to, like, put forth, like, their entire personal history and that they're going to be available online. and, you know, music is about, like, you know, relationships and trauma. And, you know, here they come along in 2021.

After making some good albums before then, the entire premise of Ultra Pop was like, these guys got really fucking jacked, and that's awesome. And I think that, like, I think people just kind of reacted to that in the same way that you'll see, like, college football strength coaches on YouTube, like, breaking the school record for, like, dead lifts. like everyone around them is just like authentically freaking out because they saw something really cool but you know it's still like okay i watch it once that was awesome it gives me a little bit of an emotional upregulation ed dross if you're listening that's a term you'll probably need to use

as a therapist um and you know like did i listen to ultra pop all that much uh after it was done not really i would watch the videos all the time if you haven't seen their adult swim uh concert or like a tape live performance from 2021 when people were still doing that. Like that to me is the definitive the armed album. And with this new one, they're

no longer anonymous and yeah, they're like coming out with a whole bunch of profiles and you know a lot of the time the people who are interviewing such as myself or Dan Ozzy, we're kind of in on the joke. We're not like, we're just like, yeah, this band's awesome. Look at what they're able to do because speaking of

Joe Jobs, a lot of them work at this this marketing company that does advertisements for Ford and McDonald's, and that's why their videos look so awesome. The woman in the band, Cara Grollshagen, she worked, I think, for like a tech company, makes a fitness app. And, you know, with this new album, they wanted to make, like, a rock album. Like, one with, like, really, you know, identifiable songs, and you could imagine it on K-Rock.

Some of it sounds like the strokes if they kind of just went Super Shredder. liar too sounds a little bit like St. Vincent. And I like it. Like I think it's a very, it's a fun rock record. And what, you know, but like as far as it being like revolutionary or like taking it down from the inside, I reviewed this album for pitchfork and I kind of likened it to the Greta Gerwig statement about doing the thing and subverting the thing. It doesn't really subvert the thing. I think it's a little disappointing on that front. its entire premise is more or less what Marilyn Manson talked about on the dope show. So there is that element of like new metal like tool Marilyn Manson or Zoo TV.

That's what that's what I've gotten from it. Like you mentioned St. Vincent in the Strokes. I don't get that as much as like stabbing westward and like nine inch nails adjacent bands in the 90s. Spawn, yeah. That's what it reminds me of. And, you know, I've got some affection for that. obviously I just wrote that soundtrack's piece. And I think it's fun to listen to as it's on.

Again, I feel like from a songwriting perspective, the songs don't necessarily stick with me after I'm done listening to it. I have to say too, like, look, I don't want to get into like what is hardcore, like that conversation that's very tiresome. But I do have to say that the branding of hardcore, like with this band, just seems very suspicious to me in some way. I mean, it reminds me of how

in the 90s, grunge bands would always call themselves punk bands and not metal bands, even though that they were probably more metal than punk. Like, Kim Thale would do interviews where he'd talk about the stooges, and he'd roll his eyes a little bit at like Arena Rock from the 70s.

And it's like, dude, you sound like Zeppelin. You don't sound like Funhouse, you know? and, you know, I think that associating yourself with hardcore at this point, like, at least in, in terms of, like, your ideology or whatever, it's a very trendy thing. But, like, the only bands that break through sound not hardcore at all. And like you said, like, this sounds like a K-rock record. But it's probably not as cool to just say that we're making K-Roc sounding music from, like, 1998, you know, that we're a hardcore band. I don't know. Maybe I'm off base with that, but I'm just very sort of skeptical about them being described that way at this point. They were a hardcore band for a very long time. Like, if you listen to the earlier stuff, like, and a lot of them do come from, like, the hardcore world.

So it was true. I mean, even as recently as maybe even like 2018 with only love, but if I think they've been pretty open about wanting to make an arena rock record, I mean, they had. like the rhythm section from Jane's Addiction on there, like, you know, Troy from Queens of the Stone Age, Alan Mulder produced it with like Justin Melval Johnson, the guy who was on the M83 records and a couple of Paramour albums. So it's, again, it's like one of those like meta arena rock albums where it's like they're doing the thing, but also like kind of poking at the hollowness of it. There's a little bit of zoo TV in there as well. But like when you say that like, yeah, There's kind of like an orgy stabbing Westward meets like mass seduction hour, St. Vincent. That's absolutely true.

And, you know, like, will I listen to it when I go to the gym this year? Yes. Will it change my mind about, like, you know, the nature of celebrity? Absolutely not. But, you know, that's the assignment. You know, I need some shit that goes hard and I can lift to and I can look at them like, fuck, man, I got to step my game up. Because if you saw the pitchfork festival,

performance of them. Like, they just look so intimidatingly jacked. For all the misdirection, they really do look that that fucking ripped. And I don't know. Look, I'm not like out to like body shame or like, you know, elevate that. But like we can, like, they look like superheroes. That's pretty fucking cool. See, I don't, I don't get into that.

This is where you and I diverge. You know, like, and I'm not going to body shame in the opposite direction. But like, if a band's really jacked, I'm less likely to be into that band. Like, you've got to be amazing for me to get past that bias. I want people who look kind of frumpy, maybe, or to be super wiry. You know, like the wiry Mick Jagger-type rock body or, like, the frumpy body. But, like, if you're really jacked, I don't know. That's not something I respond to personally.

You can have one jacked guy in the band. You can have, like, a Joe Perry or, like, I'm trying to think of the other guys. But it's funny because when I interviewed them, like, when they talked about, like, what their model was or for, like, wanting to get super jacked, you know, they said Iggy Pop. Yeah. But, like, I think of him as being more, like, cut, not jacked. Yeah, absolutely. Like, definitely not jacked. Yeah, like, he's still spelt.

Like, he's not bulging, you know? So, I don't know. We're talking about a lot of bodies here. All right, well, let's segue away from the male body discussion here to our next. album, which is by the Chicago band Rat Boys. The album is called The Window. It's their fifth record. And this is a band that if you listen to this show or if you read my writing or Ian's writing,

you're probably familiar with this band. If you are not familiar with this at all, this is your first time listening to this show, you may have no idea who Rat Boys is. They're not a super famous band, but they're famous in our circles. Is that fair to say, would you say? Yeah. We got to do the Bernie Sanders. Let me thank Rap Boys for their music.

There was that period of time in 2020 where Bernie Sanders was doing shows with like the strokes and Soccer Mommy and Joyce Manor involved and Rap Boys were one of them. But yeah, I mean, this is aside from like maybe Wild Pink who Rap Boys collaborate with a lot and tour with, I can't think of any band more situated in like the indie cast like Bingo Card. you know, they're from the Midwest. They met at Notre Dame and then moved to Chicago. They make Rootsie Indy Rock. They've been on top shelf records,

which, you know, is really having a fucking awesome year. And this album was produced by Chris Walla, who, you know, used to be in Death Cab and produced Tegan and Sarah, Foxing's Nearer My God. And, you know, and I tread lightly upon this conversation because I find myself tired of it

even when I talk about it. But they kind of have to, this label of being underrated or underappreciated. Like they're your favorite band's favorite band, you know, which you kind of allude to. It's like they're a big deal in the Indycast world, but outside of it, I don't know. So yeah, if you listen to us, like if you were to combine all of our recommendation corners, maybe take out like my hardcore scream opics and like boiled it down to one band, it would probably sound something like this.

Yeah. And it is a difficult conversation to have because I think, when as critics you start describing a band as underrated, it can be undermining to a band. I feel like on some level people hear that and it turns them off. And I'm not sure exactly why that is, but I think I understand it. This idea of like, you know, this band should be more successful. So, you know, you should listen to them because it's good for you. Instead of selling you on the merits of the band, it's almost like turning them into like a charity case or something.

And I don't think that's a good thing to do with a band. And, you know, it's not like no one listens to Rat Boys. I think they are building an audience. They have a cult. They're not on the level of, like, you know, some other bands or whatever. I think Wednesday is like a natural comparison for this band because there are some musical similarities between those groups. And it's interesting because, and I'll just say that I think that this new record

is my favorite record that Rat Boys have done since probably their second album, which is called G.N. came out in 2017. And that was the first record of theirs that I heard, and it's what made me a fan, and I profiled the band around that time. And what's interesting about that record is that I think Rat Boys were ahead of the curve

in terms of bringing in sort of an alt-country sensibility or sonic signifiers of Alt-Country into this sort of like big sky, indie rock, guitar pop type template. And that has become something that, you know, the past year or two, thanks to a band like Wednesday, has become much more popular. And you're seeing more bands do it. And Rat Boys really pivoted away from that, like after GN, and they, you know, don't have as much, like, pedal steel on their records anymore. It is more of, like, just this sort of, like, dreamy 90s alt-rock sounding music.

And they've perfected that. And I think on the window, they bring a little bit of that back into the, the fold. One of my favorite songs on the record is Black Earth, Wisconsin, this like sprawling eight-minute song that has like kind of like a country rock vibe to it. There's like a long guitar solo in the song that kind of reminds me of Skinnered a little bit. You know, it has like a little bit of like a Tuesdays gone type feel. And I mean that, of course, as the highest compliment, because I think that song is amazing. But, you know, I've had people say to me, I gave Wednesday a try,

but I couldn't get past the song Bull Believer, which is the second song on the record. It's this long song where Carly Hartman is screaming a lot, and they're just like, this is too abrasive for me. I can't get into it.

And it made me think about this Rat Boys record because I feel like if you couldn't get into the Wednesday album because of that abrasiveness, you will love this album because it has a lot of the same elements, but it just goes down easier. And I mean that as a,

good thing. Some people may say that makes Rat Boys less dynamic or less interesting because they don't have that you know, sort of vitriolic side to their personality. It is more of like a kind of straightforward, just likable amiability, I guess, to their records

that they have. But I don't know, this is such a good record, I think. And it's the kind of record going back to our soundtrack conversation. I feel like this kind of album used to be more common in indie rock. You know, a band and I'm going to do a remember some guys thing here for a second. Do you remember the band?

Do you remember the band Verses from the 90s? No. They were a band, they were on Teen Beat, and then I think they were on merge after that. And they were just like this band, they put out records every two years, very melodic, very beautiful records, and it's like they weren't going to be Yola Tango, they weren't going to be pavement or built a spill,

but they were still really good and very consistent. And I don't know, that band comes to mind when I listen to Rat Boys. I feel like they're that kind of band. They're always going to have an audience, because they're just really good at what they do. Yeah, I think that the likeability of this band, similar to Wild Pink,

is like both the, like the thing that makes them, like, so easy to recommend and also in some ways, like a built-in limitation, like, you know, because like, Bull Believer, yeah, the, they're, I keep forgetting that, like,

some people didn't like that song, given how Ratsaw God is, like the number one album on so many like half year lists. But yeah, like Rap Boys was a band that I've seen them open for, I don't know how many bands over the past eight years or something like that. And, you know, I've liked not love them. I thought they were good, but like they just kind of lack that like oomph that makes me like really want to like go to the mat for them.

And I think this album gets there. It took me a while like really get, you know, get into what it's doing. Like this is an album probably going to listen to more this year than. Ratsaw God. And, you know, does that mean it's, like, a bigger artistic achievement? I don't know. But we talk a lot about, like, albums that we put in, like, our top 10 that, like, may not be this, like, big artistic statement, but, like, it's just something we return to

a lot. And, you know, I hear that with that. But, you know, as far as, like, the verses, like, you bring up that band, and I'm looking at the AllMusic Guide. They're an indie rock quartet's avant-garde roots evolving to exquisite dark melodic pop. You know, because like I think of a band like verses, and they were probably able to make a good go of it back in the 90s. But like with rap boys and like, you know, similar bands when we talk about like, oh, is this the one going to break them or whatever? I think that there is that element of the Ed Dross thing where it's like, I've talked to so many bands in this realm over the years where they're like, yeah, if this album doesn't like move the needle for us in terms of touring or whatever, like we might actually have to break up.

And so, you know, there's that part where, like, I'm rooting for them because I want them to continue making more music. And they'll probably do it in whatever sort of way. But, you know, I think that, I don't know, like, I feel, like, conflicted because, like, I want to get out, like, I want to get out of, like, saying this band's super underrated because that does kind of silo them in the, like, it's never worked for the bands that I've, like, tried to trump up as such. So I like this album a lot. I think it'll probably sneak on to some year-end lists. Like, I imagine this one being, like, one of those albums that, like, shows up, like, number three on, like, the alternative or something like that and maybe, like, number 37 somewhere else. But if you haven't listened to Rap Boys, like, this is, like, a rare opportunity for us, like, extend the recommendation corner to the meat of the episode. Yes, absolutely.

Check out this band dig into their catalog. Lots of good records. And, yeah, I'm cheering for them, too. So hopefully they will, this record will get the audience it deserves, and I think it will. Let's get to our mailbag segment here. And thank you all for writing in. It's always great to hear from our listeners. If you want to hit us up, we're at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com.

Ian, you want to read this letter? Absolutely. So this comes to us from Ryan from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I guess you got to say all three? Okay. Look, I don't know. But anywhos, hi Ian and Stephen. Longtime listener, I continue to very much enjoy the pod

despite all the 1975 talk. Ugh, the 1975. I have a mailbag question. You guys speak about legacy bands a lot on the pod. What exactly is the definition of a legacy band? Is it defined by time alone? Does quality of later albums come into the discourse? Who, in your opinions, would fall into the legacy category most prominently?

And if a band is tagged as a legacy, Legacy Act, does that diminish or tarnish the ban in any way? So, can I just say, like, we haven't talked about the 1975 that much lately. You know, we've actually, there's been, like, a lot of Medi Healy stuff going on that we've avoided. So I just hope people, like the anti-1975 people, I hope that they are taking note of how much we have not talked about them lately. Because we could be talking about them a lot more than we did. I have to say, I'm like, I'm a little tired of it.

I think you are too, even as a fan. Well, give it a few weeks because the debut album turns 10, and I might have something cooking regarding that. All right. Well, we'll give you a heads up, Ryan, on that. In terms of the legacy band conversation, and I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this, because I think people define this in a slightly different way,

depending on who's using the term. The way I use it is analogous to when a... a professor gets tenured. Like, that's how I look at it. And what I mean by that is, to me, a legacy band is a band that has achieved something so profound and great that it doesn't really matter what they do after that. For instance, Wilco is a band that I think still puts out good records. And I think Jeff Tweedy is still invested in, you know, doing new and creative things

in his career. this new Wilco record coming out next month, cousin, it may be great, it may be terrible, but it doesn't really matter either way because this is the guy who made Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. This is the guy who made Summer Teeth. Like it's not going to change really Wilco's reputation in the long run because their reputation in a way is already set. And the audience that they have, it's not like they're going to stop coming out if they don't like the new Wilco record. They're going to still go to shows. They're still going to like the band. To name it more extreme example, like Billy Corgan, okay, he could put out a concept record

about a wrestler from outer space who thinks he's Jesus Christ, and he could play all the songs on a xylophone, and it wouldn't change the fact that he made Siamis dream in melancholy in the Infinite Sadness. Like, he has a get-out-a-jail-free card because of what he's already done. That's why Smashing Pumpkins are a legacy band. And for me, like, I don't think that's a negative thing at all. I mean, again, it just speaks to reaching a level of achievement where you're still putting out good stuff.

You're still working hard on your art and you're still trying to evolve in various directions. But if you're around long enough, you're going to have a legacy that defines you, And it's just really hard to change that. I mean, Paul McCartney was a legacy act the minute the Beatles broke up. You know, he's done good work in the 50 years since then. But it's like when he dies, he's going to be a beetle.

Like, that is his legacy. And that's a great legacy. So anyway, that's how I define it. I don't know if you have a different definition of it. I hate to break it to rhyme, but I think the 1975 is an instructive example. Like, I do like the tenure. I do like the tenure track idea. And I don't know, we can tie it into like how difficult it is to get

tenured track by the people I know who do work in education. But yeah, the 1975 to me are not a legacy band yet. They're like more imperial phase in that like if they were to release a new album, their legacy is still perhaps in flux. And, you know, it's still going to be a massive deal. I think Big Thief is not legacy band yet either. there's still kind of imperial phase, but you mentioned the smashing pumpkins,

you know, as far as like the 1975 and Big Thief, the legacy version of those bands might be like The Killers or Wilco. You know, Weez are definitely legacy band. Like, where you can make, you don't necessarily need to make 20 years of like shit music to like be a legacy band,

but Green Day is there. Like Fallout Boy is there. And I don't necessarily think like Legacy tarnishes the band, in my view, like, yeah, there are going to be a lot of bands that make shit music for a long time, such as some of the ones we've mentioned so far. Because it just, I think about the, like, the other night I went to see my morning jacket. At, you know, I saw them perform. And, you know, that was like a legacy show for them.

They played, like, 17 songs, like, one cut off the album that came out two years ago. And it wasn't like a young crowd. It was like people who were my age and, you know, they're a legacy band now. They're going to put out albums and they're going to not, you know, they're not going to put out another at dawn probably or Z. But it'll be well received. I'm curious, though, where you fall into the national because right now, like, I think their albums are like legacy albums right now. Like we talked to, I think we talked about like two pages of Frankenstein being a little memory hold already. But they're having like this sort of career renaissance vis-a-vis the Taylor.

Swift and Phoebe Bridgers. So I think they're in that, like, are they legacy? In my mind, they are. Because I would say that the last couple albums I haven't loved. Like, I don't dislike them, but they don't, they haven't really hit me all that hard. But that doesn't make me like the national less.

Like, they've made their reputation. I'm going to be a fan of them no matter what because of what they did for, you know, really from like the mid-aughts into like, the early 2010s. I mean, there's like several albums of theirs that I love. It is interesting, though, because I do think that there's an audience for them that looks at this recent period as their best work. I saw this tweet the other day where someone posted the cover of Sleepwell Beast, which

is a record I like, but they're like, some of the greatest songs of all time are on this album. And as much as I like that album, like, I wouldn't say that about Sleepwell Beast. I might say that about Alligator. or boxer. But I wouldn't say that about that album. But again, you know, there are people, there's a lot of people, I think, who feel that way. And, you know, they listen to the first two pages of Frankenstein, and they think, oh, this is like the best album that they've ever done.

So they're a very interesting case, because it does feel like in the eye of the beholder or the ear of the beholder, you know, it depends on where they're at. But really, I think either way, they're a legacy band. I mean, they've, they've established a good track record. And, you know, no matter how good the next album is, it's not going to determine if they're a good band or not. I think it's already been established. Well, I got to give a shout out on the legacy band front to, like, places like chorus.fm or, like, formerly known as absolute punk because, like, they were like, you mentioned, like, some people were like, oh, yeah, Sleepwell Beast. That's, that's, like, album of the year.

I think the last absolute punk year-end list had Jimmy E. World's Integrity Blues as number one. So there are like those crowds of people who do treat like a new Death Cab album or like a new Jimmy E. World album as like, yeah, this is fucking breaking news. But I think just by and large, yeah, they're all legacy acts. And, you know, you can be a band that's been around for 25 years and still have it, you know, still be like the sort of band that isn't, you know, legacy yet.

but that's like extremely rare. All right, we've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner. We're Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I want to talk about an album. I don't even know if I can call it an album. Or even like a data dump.

So you might have seen some people talking over the past couple of weeks about DJ Sabrina, the teenage DJ. You know, look, I talk about emo and hardcore bands all the time here. I have no shame in saying certain band names. But this is an anonymous artist from London, I believe. I think they contributed to happiness on the last 1975 album. And with this project, you know, I sometimes listen to stuff like avalanches since I left to or DJ Shadow introducing and think, like, this is too beautiful for this world.

Like I can't imagine, I mean, I live through these times, but it's like, man, we're never getting something like this anymore. Not just because, you know, sampling laws, but, you know, this scarcity of music that I think made those albums go feels a bit dated. Like, those are crate digging albums. And, you know, like the closest we've gotten is stuff like, you know, girl talk, you know, as far as mashup music. And this project, I think it's sort of mashup. I don't, like, the songs aren't obvious. Like, it pulls from, it's very plunderphonics. It's very crate digging. But imagine, like, since I left you, like, that style of music, but, like, maybe more leaning towards daft punk discovery as far as, like, upbeat, like, French techno music.

And also, it's four hours long. I know that's, like, a real, like, you know, a barrier for people. But, like, this album does do, since I left you, meets Discovery. And it does pretty much the same thing for four hours. it's a project you can dip in and out of. It's absolutely beautiful music. There would be several songs I'd put on my best of the year list if I could remember what their names are. And if there is like an edit happening where you narrow it down to like 45 to 60 minutes,

it would be like, you know, album of the year type material for me. It's if any of the stuff I had mentioned so far, sounds like good to you. DJ Sabrina, the teenage dude, DJ. It is on streaming now. It wasn't for a while. Yeah, if you want to feel good for like 30 minutes at a time, this is a good place to go to. Yeah, I dipped into this album because I saw people tweeting about it. And I had a similar reaction where I was enjoying it for about a half hour, 40 minutes. And then I, you know, I dipped out. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine listening to all four hours without being on drugs.

I think you need to be on drugs to listen to all four hours. But it's something to say about. the music I think it's really but it's just like a long record and as you said it feels like you kind of get the point after about maybe 40 minutes or so but yeah it's it's a great throwback to that period I guess again of like from the kind of record that was really new and fresh about 20 years ago you know and this is like it feels like an homage to that in a lot of ways so really good record definitely worth dipping in and out of or if you're on drugs listen to the whole thing. I can't pitch writing about it. It's like I want to write if it's like I'm not fucking spending four hours. It's like with rap albums like oh, they're all like 95 minutes. Like I don't

got time for that shit. This is like the shorter version of the Mac DeMarco album from earlier this year. How long was that? I was like, how long was that again? That was like nine hours or something. Yeah, something like that, like a nine hour record. I want to talk about an album that is not four hours long. I don't even think it's an hour long. It's called Haunted Mountain, and it's by Buck Meek, who you may know from the band Big Thief. This is, I believe, his third solo record,

and it's the first solo record I think that he's made that feels like an album that can really stand apart from what he does in Big Thief. And I would say that, certainly if you're a fan of Big Thief, you should check out this record, but if you aren't a fan of Big Thief,

I will say that I think that Haunted Mountain, it's a little bit of like a louder record than what big thief is done and it's also probably a little bit more straightforward as sort of like a country folk record that also has like some cool guitar parts on it um I think for that reason it also isn't as transcendent as big thief but this is kind of similar to what our conversation was about like ratboys versus Wednesday because this is like a little bit more of a simplified version of what Big Thief does, in some ways it goes down a little bit easier. Like this is a record that has been very easy for me to listen to over and over again. I think there's some beautiful songs on it.

Buck Meek was co-writing. I think he co-wrote five songs with the Texas singer-songwriter Jolie Holland. And that may be one of the things that kind of gives this record a little bit more shape than his previous solo efforts. But again, this is like a really good record. Recommended for Big Thief fans. If you're not into Big Thief, you may respond to this a little bit more. I know you're a fan of Buck Meek's hats, Ian.

I think he's like stepped back from like the huge hat thing. At least I haven't seen him wear that as much lately. It's sort of like Father John Misty stopped doing interviews. Like Buck Meek, like you were just born to rock enormous hats. Like please stop robbing us of this gift. But he's a fine guitarist, a really good songwriter. I actually interviewed him for Uprocks. That piece ran a couple weeks ago, but you can still find it there.

He's, I think, a smart, thoughtful guy. He had a lot of interesting things to say about his own record as well as the future of Big Thief, so definitely check out that piece. But yeah, Haunted Mountain, really good record. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.