Indiecast - New Albums By Wilco And Animal Collective + The Resurgence of Mid-'80s Alt-Rock

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

Steven and Ian begin today's episode by reflecting on the news that John Darnielle and Lin-Manuel Miranda are apparently friends and consult each other on songwriting. They also tiptoe around their mixed feelings on both artists, while pointing out that they might be more alike than people want to admit. As if this wasn't enough to alienate part of the Indiecast audience, Steven and Ian also did a short Sportscast on the relationship between Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce (8:22).After that, the guys get into a discussion about new albums by two big legacy acts, Wilco and Animal Collective. Their latest records, Cousin (for Wilco) and Isn't It Now? (Animal Collective), are worthy efforts. But is it possible for even great bands to wear out their audiences? How many new albums is "enough"? Steven and Ian get into a deep conversation about legacy bands and how we as listeners respond to them (18:39).Then they segue into a discussion about two bands who are even older: The Replacements and Talking Heads (33:34). Both bands are having a moment right now due to seminal work from the mid-'80s being re-released, the remixed album Tim and the refurbished concert film Stop Making Sense. Steven wonders: Does Ian like or care about either band? How relevant are they as influences on contemporary music?In Recommendation Corner (53:28), Ian talks up the Brooklyn emo band Good Looking Friends while Steven recommends the Chicago indie band Slow Pulp and the heartland rock singer-songwriter Jerry David DeCicca.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 157 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about new albums by Wilco and Animal Collective and a big moment for mid-80s alternative rock. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's been sharing early drafts of his songs with Lin-Mem-M-Mirranda for 10 years.

Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? Steve, can I ask you a personal question before we get? get going. Of course. I'm going to open the book. When did you and your wife first start dating? 06. Okay. So, I asked this because, you know, if you've been dating since 2006, you've never had the Okay, so we've tiptoed around our opinions on Beyonce, on Taylor Swift, on, you know, many artists, which are general, like, big consensus artists. I can tell you that I've never

had to more lightly tiptoe around a pop culture phenomenon in dating and in the workplace than I have with Hamilton. I cannot think of anything that's gone more wrong than when I've, you know, shared even like a Masley, yeah, it's not for me type opinion. So I just want to say like we are treading on dangerous ground here. If we're, if we're going to make LMM jokes. So like is your wife a Hamilton fan? You know what? I did watch, uh, I think, think this might have been pandemic. It was 2019 or 2020. We did watch when Disney, I think it was Disney Plus, showed a recorded version of it. You know, I, okay. See, I don't, I'm in a relationship where my wife also can't stand Hamilton. Oh. So I don't have to worry about that. We're actually

pretty simpatico on a lot of things like that. So, uh, I haven't had that issue. Uh, we should, we should backtrack though here a little bit because there was a picture this week that dropped online. It was apparently posted on Facebook by John Darniel of the Mountain Goats. A Facebook friend of mine. Is he? Okay. He's not a Facebook friend of mine and he won't be after I talk about this. But it's a photo of him and Lynn Manuel Miranda of Hamilton fame. And John Yarnel revealed that he and Lynn Manuel Miranda had been sharing early drafts of their songs for like the past decade. So like when John Janiel writes his latest song about pro wrestling or death metal

bands or like some other mountain goatsy type topic, he ships it off to Lynn Manuel Miranda who gives his notes. Conversely, when Lynn Manuel Miranda writes a song for, you know, some Disney film, I'm trying like, what was the Disney film? I should know this. I'm apparent. I've seen this film a million times. I can't think of it.

of, oh, it's Enkanto. Enkonto, yeah. Yes. When L-M-M-L-M, L-M, see, there's no easy way to say this guy's name. This is one of the many annoying things about him. When Lynn, I'll say when Lynn is writing Enkanto songs, he's shipping them off to John Darniel for notes. Anyway, people were gnashing their teeth over this.

There's Mountain Goats fans who maybe aren't Hamilton fans, and they were like, why is our hero hanging out with Lynn over here. I have to say I love this story because I'm not a fan of either artist. So it wasn't like I had to be offended or I had to defend somebody in this case. You know, we have a mailbag letter about the weaker thens, a yay or nay, that we've bumped like three or four times just because we've run out of time in our episodes. And I feel like we're not going to get to it. And maybe it's a good thing because I feel like we're going to alienate a segment of our audience if we ever talk about the weaker thens. Absolutely.

It's very much in that L.M.N. Mountain Goats sort of Vey-I gram. Well, yeah, because I wrote out a rant that also tossed some strays at the Mountain Goats in there as well. two bands that I feel like I would like in a different universe perhaps but the vocal style of John Darniel

and John K. Samson, that's the Weaker Thenz guy. See, I'm not going to go into the rant right now. I'm just saying, I just said I'm not going to do it. But anyway, yeah, I love the idea of John Darniel in Lynn Manuel Miranda hanging out. I actually think that their songwriting styles are more alike than people want to admit. Absolutely.

John Donnell, very theatrical, very concept heavy. So, yeah, I could see him being into like what Lynn Manuel Miranda does and vice versa. Yeah, I think that we talked about with Olivia Rodriguez that I'm not a huge fan of like songs that explain plot points. And that's like what Hamilton more or less is. I mean, look, people love it. They listen to it without watching the stage production. but like the songs are about things that are actually happening in Alexander Hamilton. And similarly with like the Mountain Goats, it's very storytelling.

And Olivia Rodriguez kind of has that element as well. Yeah, I just look. I hope this, you know, ends up in like a version of the sunset tree where, you know, Linwell Miranda's like dropping bars like that immortal, the stuff that got him stuffed into a trash can by immortal technique. I'd be okay. I'd be kind of up for that. Like let's just consolidate these two things, which I, I don't care much for, but we'll enjoy, you know, I will, I will endure them.

So I want to circle back to what you're saying before. Do you feel like Hamilton is still sacrosanct in the culture? Because I do feel like there was a moment in the mid-2010s where you saw so many think pieces about Hamilton where people were honestly like, this is the greatest thing that's ever been created, not just musical, but like pop culture phenomenon. People lost their shit over Hamilton. And now I feel like we've been in like this extended Hamilton hangover

where people think about like oh my God, the things I did last night. I can't believe I said that about Hamilton. Like I'm kind of embarrassed. Like I feel like people now look at that as like the epitome of like and I hate using this word because it's so overused but like cringe,

cringe culture of like the mid-2010s. I feel like Hamilton is always brought up as like the epitome of that like that sort of pre-Trump earnestness that's like way too cute you know and just like way uh you know way too in love with its own cleverness you know that to me is like what hamilton signifies but do you feel like it's still something where if you're in mixed company you have to be sensitive about hamilton absolutely i mean you said cringe um i thought you're going with like obama era like because it is like the epitome of the epitome of of late Obama second term and like all like how all this stuff about like art being like

revolutionary and this like it imagines like a better world that like clearly did not come to pass. So I think that by and large, at least in our sphere, it's like not a sacrosanagan's it used to be, but I'm telling you. Like, and I this gets to the original reason why I brought up like, hey, you and your wife have been together more or less since 2006. The Hamilton tote bag people like I encounter them at work. I encounter them just in day to day.

Like, they're still out there, and they are, like, probably, like, the type of people who I have no idea that, like, Lizzo is facing lawsuits. You know, it's like that kind of person. You know what I mean? They're out there. They're totally out there. Well, you know, I said before, I didn't want to alienate a segment of our audience. But I think I'm going to risk doing that again because we're going to do a very short sports cast right now. So we're stopping Indycast for a minute.

We're going to go to sportscast. If you're not a fan of sports cast, I promise you this will just be two or three minutes. You can skip ahead. But we've got to talk. About Milwaukee getting the worst NBA rapper of all time. Well, Dame Lillard going to Milwaukee is a wonderful thing. But we have to talk about the biggest intersection of sports and pop culture that happened this week.

And that is Taylor Swift, dating Travis Kelsey of the Kansas City Chiefs. I'm just going to throw this out there. there's no way in hell this is for real. This is a pure marketing scheme. Taylor Swift showing up to a Chiefs game against the Bears, like the biggest Harlem Globetrotters versus Washington Generals type matchup that you could have, like just the chalkiest game. So you're going to be guaranteed to get a bunch of screen time cheering.

Because Travis Kelsey guaranteed to score touchdowns against one of the worst defenses in the league. Her big film, the Ares Concerts, movie that's coming out in two weeks. This cannot be a coincidence. I mean, am I just a cynical person who doesn't believe in love? Or is this actually a real thing? And if it isn't a real thing, are we reaching a tipping point with Taylor Swift?

Like, there's been a lot of Taylor Swift this year. And I wrote a column earlier this year asking music critic, someone was asking me, you know, is Taylor Swift, she's so big right now. When is she going to start fading? You know, because everyone fades. You don't stay at the top forever. And I actually don't know the answer to that question.

Because she is a phenomenon that I think is historic at this point. Just the length of time that she has been hugely famous and hugely successful. It's almost unprecedented. There's really not many artists who have, like, been on top this long. You're like, Michael Jackson had about a dozen years, late 70s to like early 90s. You know, Prince, basically the 80s. Madonna. Madonna would be like the other person.

Like she had about like a 20 year run where she was having big hits and was very famous like from the early 80s to early 2000s. But I don't know. Like this Travis Kelsey thing, I just feel like this could blow up on her. It seems like a little too much for me. Well, you brought up Madonna and like Madonna was dating like Dennis Rodman. And Travis Kelsey could not be. Also, first off, like this might be kind of a like a fake relationship. and you can also be a cynical person who doesn't believe in love.

You know, both things can be true. But I don't see this blowing up because I, one of the things that I think frustrates us so much about Taylor Swift is that like everything that she does is so well orchestrated. And I don't, if she were to date someone in the NFL, this could not be better chosen because, you know, Travis Kelsey, if you haven't seen, I'm sure if you've been on Twitter in the past week or so, you've seen his like tweets from like 2012 popping up,

how much he loves like stepbrothers and electric feel. You know, he's a good, he's a known goofy white dude, but not super famous. And he's not a quarterback. I cannot stress how important that is because, you know, if for some reason the chiefs who are playing in a division with the least serious teams in the NFL somehow start fading, you know, they can't blame it on her. The way, like, you know, Cowboys fans got all up on Tony Romo when he started dating Jessica Simpson before the playoffs.

And, you know, I was just a little disappointed. Like, I really would. This could be more fun if Taylor Swift was, like, dating someone like a completely ass NFL team. You know, I want to see her sit through, like, one of those Steelers Browns Thursday night games when, like, you know, everyone's getting injured and it's like 22 to 16. You know, and whether she would do, whether she could live up to the standards of the ultimate QB wife girlfriend, Giselle Bunchen, who after the Patriots lost the Super Bowl, she like started talking shit about the wide receivers. I mean, is Taylor going to do that, like, for Cadarius Tony when he's dropping more passes? I mean, I guess just the bigger issue is, like, is this what's going to send you, you're, like, watching college football now?

No. Now that everything in the NFL is going to be viewed through a prism of Taylor Swift puns, and, like, Dion's got every college football team making Dusty Rhodes promo reels. Yeah, I've been watching more college football, actually, this year, in large part because of Deon. And by the way, we're making sports cast longer than I promise. But the Oregon coach, he's like on my list with like Nick Siriani as like my most dislike coaches in the game right now. Like that pregame speech he gave, I know you got to like hype up your team. Right.

But like the Flash versus Substance thing. Like I'm sorry. We're team Flash. Yeah. It's like you're wearing like green uniforms for crying out loud. Like you are not. It's like the most ostentatious uniform in college football. Like, give me a break.

Getting back to Kelsey and Taylor Swift, you know, it just rubs me the wrong way that she's, like, banwagoning on, like, the Super Bowl champion. Like, it is such, you alluded to this. It's like, oh, yeah, you're going to date the tight end on, like, one of the best teams in the league, like, the defending Super Bowl champion. I would respect it more if she was dating like Zach Wilson, you know, like, you know, like, you. You know, just a terrible QB in New York, you know, like, then I would be like, okay, this doesn't seem like so managed to me. You know, like you're, you're just making a bad decision. And I can get behind that, but this just seems like, oh, Taylor Swift is a winner again. Like, you're dating this winner guy and you're watching him beat a terrible Bears team.

There was a game that was like 70 to 20 this past weekend. was not the least competitive game. That was the Chiefs Bears. Right. Absolutely. Okay. Let's end sportscast. We're out of sports cast. We're getting back into Indycast. This would be the segue too. We have to do a fantasy draft update. I am the Miami Dolphins at this point. I am scoring big time. You haven't gotten on the board yet. Like none of your albums are out. Four out of my five albums are out. This week, Arm and Hammer dropped. And, Slow Pulp, the really cool up-and-coming Chicago indie band. They put out their record this week.

Arm and Hammered, 85 Metacritic score so far. That might change. More reviews might be coming in. Slow Pulp has an 82, both very respectable scores. My total score, and we're adding this to Olivia Rodriguez, who has a 91, just excellent first round pick by me. Mitzki was my second round pick. She has a 90. I have 348 points right now.

I have one more album left. It's Marnie Stern, and I'm going for the middle-aged guy at the publication who's going to give it like an automatic 8 at least or, you know, like four stars. Yeah. So I think I'm counting on like an 80 plus from her, which would put me, you know, what, like around 430 or so? So if you divide that by five, I'm going to do this quick. Just to figure out what average you're going to need to beat me.

430 divided by 5. Looking at 86, right? 86. You're going to need an average of 86 probably to beat me. Do you think you can do that? You think you have the firepower? Well, I think that my first shot across the bow will come next week with Sue. Fian dropping and God, I hate saying this, but like since the, since, uh, you know, it was revealed

he has this like total like medical catastrophe that like makes it almost difficult for him to walk again, maybe that's going to like amplify the urgency. Oh man. The praise. I know. It's so like it's so fucking cynical. So it's like it's like the inverse of injuries in sports. Exactly.

Like you don't want an injury in sports, but you might want an injury in the metacritic race. Yeah. And now if I had known that like. year of the knife we're going to be releasing an album. That has several elements. First, they had a catastrophic vehicle incident that, like, you know, the singer almost died. They're putting out a new record. It's like metal. So only a few people are going to be reviewing that. Yeah, I know. If it had I had known, but like, I'm still pretty confident that, you know, I'm going to make it up on the back end. But we'll see. You know, I think.

is your number one pick. He's going to have to give you 90. Yeah. I think he's going to do numbers. That album's really good. So you think it's going to go 90? I hope so. I don't know. I took that one because I didn't want you to steal it.

I think that Jamila Woods and Lorraine are going to be my big numbers doers. Well, you have Taylor Swift, the re-release of 1989, and I could see that being mid-90. Unless again, we're going to get the backlash going. waiting for the backlash. I mean, she's already survived her backlash. That's what's crazy about Taylor Swift.

She had the reputation era. And it seemed like, okay, she's on the decline. And then all of a sudden, Scooter Braun scoops up her rights to her songs. And she has this crazy renaissance after that. And it's just bigger than number. So it's like, is she going to have another backlash? I don't know.

Maybe she's already had her backlash. And it's just, you know, bolder rolling down. a mountain that's never ending. All right, so we'll see. I want you to get on the board here. You need some albums to come out because this is missing drama right now in our fantasy draft. It's going to be basically being.

Next couple of weeks, yeah. Next couple of weeks, we're going to make it a game. It's like all your starters are playing like the 10 o'clock, or I'm using Pacific time, the one o'clock game and then all mine are like the 4 o'clock and the Monday nighters. Right. I'm worried that I'm like the Atlanta Falcons. I'm worried that that's going to be the situation here.

We'll see what happens. Let's get to the albums we're going to be talking about today. Both albums that are out today, there's a new Wilco record. It's called Cousin. And there's a new Animal Collective record called Isn't It Now? 40-somethings are so stoked that we're bringing us back to Tri-Land. Oh, my God. Yes. Yes, the 46-year-old indie rock fan community rejoicing here.

We're grouping these albums together because they're both legacy acts that have been around for a while. I'm going to ask you a question. How many albums does Wilco have would you say, if you had to guess? Are we talking like straight up studio albums? Yeah, not EPs or live records as studio records. I'm going to guess 11. You're very close. It's 12.

Now, how many do Animal Collective have? Not EPs, not live records or studio records. I mean, does campfire songs count? Gosh, and their catalog is way, I'm going to guess 12, only because this seems to make sense. So, so Wilco and Animal Collective both up, this is their 12th record in both camps. And we're exploring an interesting phenomenon here because, you know, I like both of these records. But I would also say that I'm not terribly excited about them. and I was thinking about how with a legacy act,

you know, we often talk about, you know, bands, they start to fade over time, they're not as exciting and they're not as challenging, whatever. But I was looking at it from a different perspective, from like a listener perspective, and how there are examples of bands, and I would say that these are both examples that would fit under this, who are still making good music, and they're putting out records that I think

show that they're trying to do something different. You know, Wilco is working with an outside producer, Kate Laban. They don't do that very often. Animal Collective, there's like a 21-minute song on this movie. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. So that's like, you know, that's pretty out there. But I just wonder, like, is there like a number of albums from an artist where you just start

to get fatigued? And it doesn't matter how good the record is. You're just not in a place. where you actually want new records from them anymore. Because I was thinking about myself, and I love discographies, and I love, I'm a completist, I like digging into bodies of work, but there actually aren't that many artists

where I'm always excited about their new album. Even bands that I love, I eventually feel like, you know what, you've served me enough courses of this meal, I think I'm good. And again, it's not a judgment on the bands. It's more about me, and like what your tolerance, level is for new music from artists, even artists that you love.

You know, we're going to be talking about two of the greatest bands of all time in our next segment, replacements and Talking Heads. Replacements have seven albums and Talking Heads at eight albums. And I wonder, like, is seven or eight, like the perfect number? I mean, even for those bands, like, not all their albums are good. Like, you could kind of drop off the last couple in both cases. but does any of this make sense? I'm not even sure if I'm landing on this.

This is something I'm kind of like working through in my mind. If there's like a number of albums that's kind of perfect for an artist, and if you go over that, it's hard to maintain like an interest in what they're doing. I think you're absolutely right about that. I mean, like Wilco, they are a band. Like I said this in the outline. I was like wondering aloud if they're like underrated or, underappreciated at this point. And I know they're not, but like, when you think about like how

consistent and like how much they try to change from an album to album, you know, what more could you want out of a band 30 years deep? And yet I could kind of agree with you. It's like I can't see myself getting, you know, that stoked over, you know, album 12, which it feels like way more. I mean, I will continue to check out both of these bands just because they've made evolution of their sounds so much a part of their whole thing. But I think we're just talking about like the inexorable march of time and aging and, you know. But it's not about the band. It's like the listener, I think. Of course. As a listener sometimes, it's just hard to hang in.

With Wilco, I will say their previous record, Cruel Country, I like quite a bit. And that is a record I've listened to a lot. And I think I put it on my year-end list. They might have been like in the top 15 or 20. And the thing I like about that record is that it's Wilco playing live in the studio. And it is the closest that they've come to replicating what they sound like on stage on a record. Because for the most part, especially since Star Wars or so, they've been making records that are much more sparse, spookier, paired back. And I like those records.

And I think that in a lot of ways, this latest record cousin is reverting back to that aesthetic that you hear on records like Schmilko and O'Djoy. And there's some songs on this record I like quite a bit. But I have to admit that the more robust live sound of Cruel Country is more of what I want from Wilco. And that might be why this latest album isn't quite hitting me in the same way as Cruel Country did. With Animal Collective, it's an interesting thing with them because they're making the most conventional records of their career at this point. You know, that 21-minute track aside, which is essentially a suite of songs. It's like a big Prague rock epic with like, you know, probably like four or five different bits in it, something like that. They're making very hooky, accessible songs.

You heard that on time skiffs, which is the record they put out last year. and on this new one, isn't it now as well. And it is interesting to hear them almost like a semi-normal psych rock band. Like, you know, you mentioned electric feel before. I mean, there are songs on here that kind of remind me of like that era of MGMT, like just like a fun, infectious kind of pop psych type thing. and I really like it when it's on but it is a thing with Wilco

I'm sorry with Animal Collective where you know there's that mind-blowing aspect that their music had you know in the 2000s where you felt like I've never heard anything like this this is so unpredictable like what even is this and these records definitely don't have that

I don't know even if like these albums were weirder I don't think they'd that. And again, I think that's kind of on the audience because the shock of the new is gone no matter what. You know, like as you get deeper into a career, even if you're writing good songs, that ability to just like knock someone out because I've never heard a record like feels or I've never heard a record like Yankee Hotel Foxtrot or whatever. You know, you can't do that no matter how good your records are. So I don't know.

It's just an interesting thing being on a journey with a band over the course of like 10, 15, 20 years, you know, and how those things change over time. Even if the bands themselves haven't changed as much as you think they have in your own head. You know, I'm thinking with your comparison of Animal Collective, at least Latter-day Animal Collective, to MGMT, I'm wondering, like, there is a non-zero chance. that Travis Kelsey has heard, Merry Weather Post Pavilion.

Or maybe he'll like the new one. I don't know. Like, maybe he'll get into Animal Collective and that'll be, you know, it'll be this strange transfer of power and then we'll get like the swifty contingent of Animal Collective. But, you know, you mentioned how this is,

like, an Animal Collective album is like, I don't know, like weirdly conventional at this point. And when I think back to their 2000s run, which is some of the most, like, fucking incredible music, I've ever heard in my entire life. I think there was like this symbiotic thing where they were, you know, constantly evolving,

constantly changing, constantly challenging, you know, convention. But they were also like one of the most celebrated bands in indie rock. So it really felt like you're, you know, riding this wave, you know, like where this is where the most interesting shit is happening. And I don't think we see that as much currently for a vast number of reasons we've explored a lot on this on this podcast. But yeah, I didn't really like time skiff as much as I thought I was supposed to. You know, I've been lobbying for a re-appreciation of Animal Collective for a long time because for a while they were seen as this symbol of like, you know, blog rock or 2000s indie rock

access where it's like, I can't believe pitfork trick this into liking Animal Collective as if that was the only reason. But, you know, like, I like that magic. I like that unpredictability. And, you know, I don't go to Animal Collective albums for the songs, you know, for the most part. I do go to Wilco for the songs. Like, even if they were just to make the most basic, like, sit down, Jeff gets out the

guitar, you know, some tasteful drums, I'm going to get something out of the songs. But I need Animal Collective to, like, really push against, like, what it is. that they did before. Like, I really think they need to make their, not need to. I would appreciate if they made their embryonic,

you know? Right now, I think they're more in the, what Flaming Lips did when they just like here, here's the, here's like the eighth iteration of Yoshimi.

You're going to like that, right? So you want like a, you want like a noisy evil sounding record? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,

I don't know. I mean, again, I, I mean, I like time skiffs and I like this record too. They don't, feel essential to me.

And maybe that's what we're dancing around here is music that's good, but it doesn't feel like you have to have it. You know, this album need to exist, you know? And I just feel like, you know, we've talked about legacy bands recently. We were talking, you know, someone asked us like, how do you define a legacy band? And it is, in my estimation, a band that has already earned their stripes. So no matter what they do next, they're still. still going to be able to sell tickets, they're still going to have a good reputation because

they made four, five, six records that are great, and they don't really have to worry about what they do after that. And that's a great place for a band to be, but it is the double-edged sword is what we're talking about now, where even new albums that I think are good, they just don't seem essential because it's like, well, I already have seven, eight Wilco records that I love. you know, like, is this going to be in the rotation for me moving forward? I actually would say that cruel country has a shot at being in there more so than this record. Yeah, Animal Collective, I mean, the most shocking thing that they could do would be to, like, you know, become big because Travis Kelsey loves them and then Taylor Swift ends up on an Animal Collective record. Like that would be like the craziest thing they could do at this point.

It'd be the most surprising thing. Because like what else could they do really? That would be surprising. Other than, you know, because like what you're talking about like the evil noisy record. I mean, they've done that too before. But maybe that's just for you personally, the aesthetic that you most want from them. Absolutely.

And I think what we're like the kind of undertone of this entire conversation is if like, you know, I can speak for myself that a big part of like my. identity forming years was being like a huge Animal Collective fan, being a huge Wilco fan. And if they're not seen as essential, am I essential? Well, no. Well, the thing with Wilco, they're still like one of the best live bands. Oh, yeah. I'm seeing them in a couple weeks and I cannot be more stoked.

And again, that's why I'll go back to what I said about Cruel Country. You know, like with Animal Collective, you want them to make like the evil noisy record. With Wilco, I want them to make like the live in the studio record, you know, which I think what Cruel Country was. And like, I don't know, maybe they recorded live in the studio for a cousin, but it doesn't have the same kind of robustness. You know, you got like the strummy guitars and you have like the pedal steel. And then they're kind of, they were, there's a couple songs on Cruel country that go in sort of like a Grateful Dead direction. Like it's jammy and kind of like a cosmic country type sense. And I mean, that's the pivot.

I mean, that is the pivot that I'm still waiting for them to do, to just embrace full on being like a new Grateful Dead type band. Animal Collective got there first, I guess. Well, yeah, from a different direction, from like the Dark Star direction. I'm talking more like the American Beauty style, Grateful Dead, which they flirted with in the past. You know, they've played with Bob Weir. They've, you know, been at jam band festivals.

but I just feel like Jeff Tweedy, there's something in him that won't go full jam band. Like he can't allow himself to do that. You know, like the punk rocker in him won't go fully in that direction. I would love them to make a record that just totally embrace that. I think a cruel country, I think, flirted with that. I'm still waiting for them to go full on with that.

If they did that, I would be totally on board with that Willco record. We'll see if they ever make that. And that's why you have to, allow bands to make that 13th record. You can't stop at 12. That's true. That's true. And again, I just want to reiterate, like, I want Wilco to keep making records. I want animal collective keep making records. Even if I'm not totally excited by it, I'd like them being creative. It seems like they're doing what they want to do. And there is always that possibility

with these groups that they will knock you out. So, yes, please do not construe this as, oh, I don't want them to make records anymore. This is really. really a me, not them type situation is what I think I was trying to say before. Anyway, let's talk about bands that are even older than Wilco and Animal Collective. We're

going to talk about the replacements in talking heads because both of these bands they're having a moment right now. The mid-80s are back. You've got the Tim Box set, Let It Bleed Edition that came out

earlier this month has been getting great reviews. I wrote about it. My piece actually ran in August. I talked to Tommy Stinson about it. For those who aren't familiar, they ended up doing a remix of the album. Tim is known for having just a terrible mix.

And I love the record, so I came to love the mix, but it's without question that the remix that they did is very well done. It basically makes it sound like the replacement sound on stage. You know, so if you want like bigger guitars and more robust drums, this is going to be the tim for you. So that has been garnering like a lot of conversation. People love that box set. And then with the Talking Heads, you have the IMAX re-release of Stop Making Sense, their classic

1984 concert film. It premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival and now it's all over the country. I actually saw it this week. It was incredible. I mean, I love that movie anyway, but I had seen it in a theater years ago, but to see it in IMAX remastered, just incredible sound,

it was just fantastic. Now, both of these bands broke up in 1991. Really? Yeah, they both broke up in 91. Very interesting year. I mean, obviously, that's the year of Nevermind. you know, it's the changing of the guard. And we all know that you don't care, Ian, about music release before 1992.

And that's generous. So I'm curious, what do you think about these bands? And do you feel like, what do you feel like is their contemporary relevance at this point? All right. So to address this question, I'm going to just, if you allow me to indulge it, maybe the most embarrassing story I've ever told on this podcast. So we got to start by remembering some guys, kindness. If you're like a 2012 PBR&B type dude, you'll remember this guy.

He was kind of like a quasi-industry plant. Like he had incredible hair. And I was listening to this album and like I would, there was this one song that stood out. And I was like shocked at like how good the lyrics are and like how this like really deep emotional undertow that was completely absent from this like stuff that sounded more like kind of. a boneless version, a twin shadow or whatever. And I brought this up to some of the older heads at Pitchfork. The song was called Swinging Party. I did not know it was a cover.

And I'm like, how fucking embarrassing is that? Because like that is the same year that like I raved about celebration rock, which is an element that like clearly would not exist without the replacement. So I think it's interesting with the replacements in that they inform so much of the music I love and identify. with and I could talk about them intelligently and reviews and whatnot. But like, I thought about this as you were publishing your Martin Scorsese film list where it's like, like, A, like you've seen that many movies. Like, I'm jealous.

But there are certain, like, I don't know, movies or bands or books that if you don't read them in the super formative years of your life, it's like really hard to revisit them because their influence is so ingrained that. you can almost like avoid it like I first saw pulp fiction in 2017 what yeah I know right where were you in maybe before I just missed it and like I never bothered to you know check it out and then like I watch it's like okay this explains everything and similar with like velvet underground like Sonic Youth was kind of like that and you know like look Alex Chilton even before like I you know really dove into the catalog it was probably my favorite song of the 80s because like it sounds a lot

the Hooters and we dance. But, um, well, then why would, isn't Enwee dance then your favorite song of the 80s? I guess, yeah. Like, yeah, that's, that's your favorite song of the 80s. Yeah, it's got the, it's got the, it's. Yeah, that's like the Philly, hoagy water ice version of like the Midwest replacements, I guess. But, um, yeah, and, you know, both them made 90s, alt rock hits. I think the Hooters guy went on to co-write, uh, Joe Osborne's one of us, you know,

Paul Westberg. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, with the replacements, like, I don't have the same attachment to, um, you know, their work, I guess that like other people might, like, expect, like, all I knew about Tim was like, yeah, this album sounds like shit. Um, so when I listened to the new one, I'm like, wow, this, this sounds like it could have come out in 1994 or 2004. You know, like, look, the songs are great. Um, they're undeniable. Um, I even have love for Lay It Down clown. Like, I saw a lot of

people talking shit about that. Not because I think it's an incredible song, but like because I know it's about like Peter Buck buying speed. Which how could you not love a song with like I don't give a shit if it's like a one minute ambient instrumental. So yeah, I mean, with the replacements, like you would, it's it's sort of like how I think like when people would interview Interpol back in 2002 and they'd say like, yeah, we never really heard Joy Division or like the strokes would talk about yeah, like, tell us. television, that's, like, not really what we listen to. You know, that's sort of how I am with the replacements. And with the talking heads, love remain in light, never really went much deeper than that. Like, I heard the hits and I understood their influence and, like, how, you know, all, like, basically all tributaries of art rock lead back to that.

But, yeah, even when I was, like, religiously trying to scour the Rolling Stone and pitch for it, can spin best of the 70s and 80s list. Like, just never dug deep. I just wonder sometimes, like, how do people find so much time to, like, you know, watch all 30 Martin Scorsese movies or, like, you know, dig deep into all the Talking Heads albums. I just wonder what I'm doing with my life. Well, while I'm doing that, you are listening to, like, you know,

super obscure emo bands or, you know, stuff like that. So, like, we all spend our time doing different things. things that we're into. It's interesting with talking heads because there was a little kerfuffle online this week. People were talking about Stop Making Sense and I saw some younger people talking about how they feel like talking heads are overrated. And it's an interesting thing because I think with talking heads, this is similar to the band with the last waltz, like stop making sense in a lot of ways defines who they are to

the casual listener. Like when you think about talking heads, you think about David Byrne in the big suit, you know, dancing with like a lamp, all that stuff, jogging on stage of that whole act in 1983. And it is a version of that band that, you know, even as I'm watching Stop Making Sense in IMAX and loving the movie, I did think in my head, like, this is very 80s.

And this is something that I could see a younger person not liking at all. Because if you look at modern pop music or modern indie music, that version of Talking Heads is in a lot of ways like the opposite of where we're at right now. It's very theatrical. It's very up, like extremely energetic. Lots of people smiling and jumping up and down. And again, I love it. I think the music is great.

But I could see someone coming in. to that movie and just being like, this is way too much for me. You know, so if that's you, I get it. I would say that with talking heads. When I say you, I don't mean you. I'm talking like the proverbial you out there, like a younger listener, like the 21-year-old indie rock fan who's going to watch that making sense because older people won't shut up about it and maybe it leaves you cold for that reason.

I would say that if you listen to like the late 70s albums, like the ones they made with Brian Eno, like more songs about buildings in food, fear of music, and then leading up to Remain in Light in 1980, I think those records are a bit different. They're artier. They're a little more, I think, it's easier to connect what's going on now to those albums

than what's in that making sense. I think in a weird way, fear of music, which is like this chilly, introverted record, like the opposite is not making sense. I almost feel like that might be a better introduction for like the young listener who's curious about talking heads. Again, stop making sense I think is an amazing movie, but I could see it being too much for people

who don't have any other connection to this band. As far as the replacements go, they just seem like a band that even if you've never listened to the replacements. Like, if you are a four-piece rock band that likes beer and flannel shirts and, like, writing lyrics that are, like, funny and sad at the same time, like, you owe something to the replacements, like whether you know it or not. I mean, they're a band, I think, similar to the Beatles in that way that, like,

kind of like every band that, like, seeks to write their own songs and make ambitious albums, you owe something to the Beatles, even if you think you don't like the Beatles. just because they're so fundamental to creating the template of, like, what that is. And, like, for, you know, alternative rock or indie rock, rock bands, you know, that have some sort of, like, classic rock feel to them, like, that's what the replacements are. Like, there's so many bands that you look at now, and I'm like, yep, there's a little bit of replacements in here, whether they know it or not. You know, it's just such a pervasive thing.

So, like, I think replacements, in a way are more timeless. than talking heads are. Talking heads to me are much more of their era, whereas the replacements, I feel like there's probably always going to be a certain kind of person who gets into that band. Yeah. You know?

The replacements, like, both artists created a type of band, but like the replacements, and I mean, I think you could speak more to this as someone who grew up in the Midwest. The replacements created a type of guy, you know? Right. And like in a turtle type, yeah, I guess, yeah. Because they have a big female following as well.

Like one thing about the replacements is, you know, I see people sometimes, like, they roll their eyes at the mystique of the replacements. That's sort of like lovable loser thing, which, you know, that does get heavy handed. And, you know, Bob Mayer, my friend in his book, Trouble Boys, I think he dispels a lot of that because you read his book and you're just like, wow, these were just dysfunctional guys from like, from, like, from, abusive backgrounds and like there's nothing lovable about it. It's just really kind of sad and self-destructive. Having said all of that, the replacements would not be as relevant now and they wouldn't be as popular with younger generations if they didn't have that mystique. Like there's so many bands from the 80s that are good that like no one remembers now because they didn't have a backstory to them that you could latch on to. And for all again of like the skepticism,

that you can have of like rock and roll mythology, like mystique matters, you know? And I think that is a big part of like why some bands and artists are remembered and others are not. You know, when you're coming into a band, you need a narrative that pulls you in, that adds another dimension to the music that you're listening to, that makes it mean a little bit more. And, you know, the replacement's just being such a fuck-up band. And you have this record that, like, has great songs on it, but it gets screwed up at the last minute, you know, in the mixing process. And then, you know, like 30 years later or almost 40 years later, it's miraculously repaired. You know, it's like a great story.

And that's like how people get into this band. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I can't imagine, like, the replacements being banned. bigger, you know, like, that was always a thing around them. It's like, oh, if they only, like, could get it out of their own way. But, like, to me, the mythos of the replacements and the reason they resonate so much is that, like, they're fucking up and their self-sabotage is, like, a load-bearing part of the whole thing, you know? The songs are great and so forth, but so much of, like, even to the degree that I've, like, interacted with them, it's like, there's a sense of, like, failure and just like being like just getting close enough to realize how far away you are now

you brought up the comparison of i want to switch it back to the talking heads for a bit because you brought up the comparison with uh the band um you know last waltz which which one had more drugs in it i don't know i think the talking heads it's like they they're i think they're just kind of doing it natural i think they're just like that you know yeah you know i was i was thinking about that actually as i was watching it because the joke would stop making sense is that they're so coked up, you know, because they're so energetic. But actually, this time watching it, I was just thinking about all the time that they must have put in at the gym for that.

Like, David Byrne is in the David Byrne training videos? Well, yeah, of him dancing and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that. And, you know, he's such a skinny guy in the movie. So it's not like he's, you know, like, pump an iron or anything. But just to be able to, like, jog on stage and then sing. It just seems like, how is he?

And everyone's doing that. Like Alex Weir, who's like one of the supporting musicians in the talking hits at that time, he's like doing high kicking, like running while playing like these crazy guitar licks. I mean, they just, they must have been jogging like 10 miles a day at the time.

So I don't think that they were doing drugs. I don't think that, like their hearts would have exploded. If they were, you know, doing blow, you know, off the amps between songs. The last waltz, I mean, there's just a variety of drugs going on. Yeah, I mean, the infamous thing about, like, the cocaine bugger on Neil Young that they had to, like, cut out of the movie. I mean, that's just, like, one small example of the debauchery going on during that film. Yeah, I think with the, yeah, with talking heads, it's, like, kind of more of like a family-friendly sort of energy, which, you know, I guess would be less likely to resonate with, you know, younger audiences.

but here's the one thing I got to know about, you know, the talking heads as far as you being a lifelong fan of it. When did this must be the place become their most popular song? Because I've seen that reference at so many weddings, but it seems like a past five to ten years sort of thing. Yeah, that seems like something, you know, it's like, what's that pavement song now? Parnisher hopes. Yeah, it seems something like that. Like where, you know, I could see this must be the place being very playless friendly and very algorithm friendly. Like, I feel like that's just a song that a lot of people got pointed to, like, on streaming platforms.

I mean, I think it's longer than five or ten years. But, I mean, when I first got into the talking heads, like, after they broke up, essentially, like when I was in, when I was a teenager and I was going through that. thing of reading music books and going into music history and getting into them and stuff. So I don't know. I didn't have a sense that that was like the big song for them necessarily. But yeah, it's become like a, like you said, like a wedding standard at this point. And it probably is like their most famous song at this point. More than once in a lifetime?

I mean, it probably is. I don't know. I feel like it's overtaken once in a while. Because again, like when I was growing up and I first got into them, like once in a lifetime was like their most famous song. Absolutely. But I feel like this must be the places now supplanted it. Just because it has that like wedding song aspect to it where people who don't care about the talking heads,

they like that song because they think it's sweet. I think maybe it's more like a hallelujah than harness your hopes because like it was always big. But now it's just like taking a different sort of term. But look, I guess it shows. that it's at least resonating with people who are, you know, under the age of 45, 46. Yeah, it's interesting with Talking Heads because, you know, that song is taken in such a sort of earnest way. And it goes against a little bit like what they were like at the time. I think there was an irony to Talking Heads.

Absolutely, yeah. Certainly like in the David Byrne, you know, the way he wrote and the way he presented himself. There was always this, I think, ironic. detachment going on in his songs. I mean, like, one of my favorite talking head songs is Heaven, which is another song that you can interpret as a sweet song

about being in love, but you could also interpret it as a song that is commenting on, like, how we conceive of religion and, like, how... The way we talk about the afterlife, it's actually, like, a really boring place. You know, so you can do either interpretation of that.

tend to do the more romantic interpretation, but the other one is there too. And there's a lot of songs from that period where there's a slipperiness to them. That's how he wrote. But yeah, like that song being the song now that people love, it does re-contextualized talking heads a bit as more of like this earnest, you know, happy band. And then when you put it in the context of Stop Making Sense, which is, again, like such a up movie. It is so, like, happy.

You know, it does change, like, how I think they're remembered a little bit. Yeah. I mean, I think the big hits, like, you look at, you know, once in a lifetime, that is a very depressing song. And, yeah, I think there's just layers to it. It's a fascinating band, like, one of a kind. It's sort of like, gosh, I really wish there were, like, you know, big popular rock artist like pushing against the grain and like doing you know just mind expanding things

like them and maybe there are i imagine the indecast whatever version of it exists in like 2053 maybe we'll be talking about like i don't know del water gap or two-door cinema club as like the talking heads of our time we just don't realize it yet you've now reached a part of our episode that we call recommendation corner where ian and i talk about something that we're into this week i ain't want you go first all right so i want to bring up a album that kind of quietly dry about a week ago from a band called Good Looking Friends. It's wasted now. They are

I don't know if I'm putting them on blast by calling them a Brooklyn emo band, but they're from Brooklyn, and they sound pretty emo, and yes, Brooklyn emo does exist. You know, they don't have that descriptor in their band campaign. They say pavement, sad folk, but it's kind of emo. Anyway,

I've been following them since 2018 or so. They were more of a traditional Twinkle revival type band. They've evolved into something more diverse. There's straight up emo stuff on here, but there's, you know, folkier kind of alt-country songs, one called Shots and Beers. There's like a 73-second punk song, and the whole thing's over in less than a half hour. What I also like about this, it's kind of the opposite of the replacements where, you know, like, do you think of like the hard touring road dog band? But this

seems more like a band that is really just in it for the love, you know, might not tour beyond the tri-state area. And it's just like a really enjoyable, like, comfort-fewable. And it's just like a really enjoyable, food type album, if you like, you know, the kind of stuff I like, you know, kind of pavement leaning, but not totally into that park eight courts territory. Yeah, there's going to be quite a few albums over the next couple of weeks that, you know, hit that 2013 emo pleasure zone. This just happens to be one of them. So good looking friends, wasted now. The whole catalog is pretty good, too. So I have a couple of records I'm going to mention. The first is one of the records on my fantasy

draft indie rock albums team which is a record called Yard by a Chicago indie band called Slow Pulp. I thought they were Wisconsin. Well, they're from Madison originally. They're in Chicago now. And this is a band. Actually, I might end up talking about them more next week

because I have an interview with the lead singer that's going to be running on Up Rocks next week. But I just wanted to mention this record. Really good indie rock record. It's kind of like a big tent indie rock record, like the kind that they don't really make anymore and that there's like lots of different kinds of songs on there. There's like an alt country song. There's like some really kind of

zippy guitar pop songs. There's like some more kind of fokey songs. And they just seem like a band that has the potential that I think to be pretty big. And this record seems like something that a lot of people are going to get into as this year unfolds and they get a chance to hear it. So that's a really good record. Slow Pulp Yard. Check out my interview next week. I'll have more to say about them then. I also want to talk about a record that isn't quite getting the same push as Yard, but I think is really worthy. It's a record called New Shadows by a singer-songwriter named Jerry David De Sica. And you may know him. He used to be in an indie folk band called Black Swans that existed back in the aughts in early 2010s. And since 2012, he's been going solo.

And I really like this record a lot. And he is working in an aesthetic that personally means a lot to me. Basically, he is emulating the records that like Boomer era singer-songwriters made in the 1980s. So I'm talking about records like Trans by Neil Young, Tunnel of Love, Bruce Springsteen, I'm Your Man, Leonard Cohen, Empire Burlesque, Bob Dylan. These records where you had these older musicians working with synthesizers and drum machines and lush saxophone solos, and they're trying to merged that new technology or what was new technology at the time with this sort of old school poetic sensibility. And he's obviously not the first person to bring this sound back. I mean, the most, I think, famous example of this would be Caput, the Destroyer Record from about a

dozen years ago. I think John Mayer was working in this vein as well when he made Sobrock. But DeSica, I think, is really keyed into the perversity of a lot of those records. The sort of sort of strange yet beautiful lushness of these records. And you can tell he's a student of that era and he has an eye for the fine points. And this isn't just some broad homage. It really does feel like a record that is connecting with like the beautiful strangeness of those records. And that beautiful strangeness exists on New Shadows.

So definitely a record that I feel like is made for me and people like me. so I really dug it. And if you are on my wavelength, then Jerry David DeSika's wavelength. You should definitely check it out. Yeah, Jerry David DeCica is like an extremely Steve recommendation corner name. Yeah, I love it. He definitely looks the part.

Yeah, that slow-pop item is good too. It's just real, like I was saying, like comfort food. It just kind of hits all notes if you like indie rock. And it's one of those albums that like I feel like is going to be like in my top 20 because I just listened to it so much, you know, as opposed to it like innovating or doing new stuff, you know? Yeah, and I think, again, they're going to be a band that I think a lot of people like. Absolutely.

And their first record, you know, did well. I mean, they released their first record during the pandemic, which seems like a terrible time to launch a career. But it actually did pretty well. And you could see that they have a lot of momentum at this time. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped Newslet.

You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.