Indiecast - New Music From Big Thief, Turnstile, And Pulp

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

Steven and Ian open with a conversation about Miley Cyrus stans lobbying Metacritic to disregard negative reviews of her new album (0:00:. What could this mean for the future of the Fantasy Albums Draft? Speaking of the draft, it's coming down to the wire with reviews of new albums by Alan Sparhawk and Little Simz (8:10). From there, the guys talk about a new album announcement from Big Thief, as well as a new single (16:21). Then they review new albums by Turnstile (24:36) and Pulp (36:02).In Recommendation Corner, Ian goes for the shoegaze band clairaudience and Steven talks up the Chicago indie trio Lifeguard (54:18).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 242 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast on this show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about new music from Big Thief, Turnstile, and Pulp. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's standing trial for crimes against the new Miley Cyrus album. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? You know, it's been a minute since we've made an intern joke,

but I really do think we're going to need someone on staff who can, like keep a spreadsheet of which pop stand armies want to do what to pitchfork. Like Halsey's the one who wanted to do a 9-11. Riley Cyrus is the one whose fan base is kind of doing a Maha style. Like, you know, pitchfork is the Dr. Fauci of Metacritic or whatever and that like we need our license revoked. This one's super interesting. I can understand how, you know, all the articles and books we've,

read about how pop stand armies help people develop identity and community. And then you have people who are treating Metacritic as if like it's this powerful force that determines whether or not Miley Cyrus gets to record another album. If she doesn't go below 70, it's sort of like the movie Speed. Yeah, it's really weird. The focus on Metacritic and we're hypocritical here for making fun of someone for caring about Metacritic. But there was a thing this week. There was a viral tweet sent out by a Miley Cyrus Stan account. By the way, is there a sadder phrase in the English language than Miley Cyrus Stan? I mean, Katie Perry's stand account.

Yeah, that's pretty sad too. But just going to bat for Miley Cyrus, I guess these people got on board with Hanna, Montana, and then they never got off because nobody grows up anymore. So you're just a Miley Cyrus stand, your whole life, you're going to bat for her. This account, they posted a message that they sent to Metacritic. It's a complaint about the review from Pitchfork of her latest album, which is called Something Beautiful. They're charging bias against Pitchfork toward Miley Cyrus.

And as supporting evidence, they took screenshots of tweets from people who have written for pitchfork but didn't write this particular review. I guess there was maybe one screenshot from the writer of the review who was Madison Bloom who did a great job with her review, by the way. Shout out to her. But they're going to Metacritic here.

They're going to the cops. Yeah. On Pitchfork. I've never seen this before. Maybe it's happened. But appealing to Metacritic to remove the pitchfork score from

from Metacritic. I mean, this could set a precedence for our fantasy album draft. Yeah, I didn't know you could do that. I know, me neither. Like, can I go to Metacritic and say, this score from the skinny

really screwed me this year. Can we remove this because the skinny is biased against whoever? Do you know anything about this Malachi Cyrus record? I was actually reading about it, and it's kind of bonkers. like the cast of characters that she's brought together to work on this record.

Have you looked at this at all? So my understanding is that it's sort of like, I think it was like lemonade, where there was like Ezra Canning and like Father John Misty. Like this is sort of like the C tier from the same sort of era. I mean, I don't really mean scene tier because it's got, you know, like model actress and always. But it's also got, you know, I think foxogens up in there somewhere. It's just like a real interest. Yeah, Jonathan Rado, Alico Hanley from.

always. You got B.J. Burton, Sean Everett, Adam from the War on Drugs. Cameron Winter is on this record. Like, she's keeping track of the latest indie rock heroes in bringing them into the album. Apparently, I'm reading from Metacritic here, this album is inspired by Pink Floyd's The Wall and she's described it as a visual album that centers around the theme of healing. Yeah, because that's like what the wall was totally about. Oh, man.

I mean, this makes me want to listen to this record. Yeah, totally. But, I mean, on paper, I love this record. Although, like, Miley Cyrus does do this. Like, she is a dilettante, I think, like, throughout her career. She did that thing with the dude, Wayne from Flaming Lips. You know, she likes to bring in other people. And I don't know if it's, I mean, in the Flaming Lips situation,

I feel like they were using each other. I mean, Miley Cyrus trying to get some alt rock or indie rock cred. Wayne Coyne, I don't know what he's doing. He wants to hang out with Miley Cyrus. All these indie rockers on this record, you know, they're getting paid. So good for them. I hope they got paid. I hope, well, whether they're getting paid or getting points,

I just hope they got something for their troubles. I'm sure they did. Yeah. Come on. They got good lawyers. They're, I mean, you know, again, like I'm looking at the producers here. Like, Alec from Always is listed as a producer. Jonathan Rado is listed as a producer.

Molly Rankin, producer. I mean, there's like 12 producers on this record. But, yeah, I don't know. Like, Miley Cyrus, I get Taylor Swift, I get Beyonce. Miley Cyrus just seems like a B-level pop star to me. The passion is odd to me. I was thinking about, like, an indie rock equivalent, you know, like where, you know, if someone

was like, yeah, I don't care about Spoon or Big Thief for Vampire Weekend. I love Cold War Kids. You know, like, would that be the equivalent? Like, something like that? I think it would have to be, like, one of those big indie acts that, you know, is super popular, but, like, never makes, like, idols, maybe, I don't know. Or, like, I love cigarettes after sex. Yes.

Like, that's my band. Cigarettes after sex is the truth. And I'm going to go after whoever writes, a negative review of them. The funniest part about this whole like gotcha thing that the, the fans are doing it, it's like, I think it's a couple of friends of the pot. I think like Eric from endless scroll and Jacqueline, there are people who maybe have written a combined, like, less than 10 articles for Pitchfork.

So it's not like they're finding out that, you know, if I review a muse album, they're like pulling up all the things I've said about them. This is like so tangential to the actual piece. You are really, like, begging for scraps right there. I'm really invested in the, in the Metacritic decision, though. I want, like, the New York Times breaking news article, like, in the same way that I find out, like, everything that's happening in the White House. Like, I want the Metacritic scoop. That would transform our fantasy album draft.

If you can game Metacritic like this, I mean, I think they're going to hold firm. They're not going to take out pitchfork. Of course not. I just wonder, though, like, are the Miley Cyrus stands? Are they, like, pooling their money to hire a... private and investigator to look into like Jeremy Larson's tweets. Alan Dershowitz is on the case. We're doing a full-scale investigation and finding out that Jeremy Larson tweeted something

about Miley Cyrus at the BMAs in like 2013 that was disrespectful. And we're going to use that against pitchfork in the trial. This is like Hulk Hogan and Deadspin all over again. They're going to crack the case. At the federal metacritic tribunal, they're going to just drop the, the case file on Jeremy Larson, like Tom Cruise, going after Jack Nicholson, you know, you can't handle the truth. It's going to be a beautiful thing.

Speaking of the fantasy album draft, things are heating up, Ian. My album that I had came out last week, the Alan Sparhawk record with trampled with turtles, trampled by turtles, I should say. Trampled with turtles? You wouldn't want to be trampled with turtles. I mean, the turtles are getting trampled with you, whereas you're being, there's turtles on top of you who are trampling you. That's what's happening. The turtles are doing the trampling.

Anyway. The Duluth folk rock scene does not want you to mess this one up. You don't want to mess with turtles in northern Minnesota. They're brutal animals. They will trample you, among other things. That record has an 81 right now. Of course, I had to pick this record because I had to pick this record because I, screwed up and picked Lennadale Ray and that album got delayed.

You have Lil Sims this week. Critically acclaimed British rapper. I feel like every album she puts out is nominated for like the Mercury Prize. Yeah. I think she's won the Mercury Prize once, but she's been nominated multiple times. Yeah, she's like the Beck of the Mercury Prize. That's right. The British Beck.

That was your record this week. What does that have? So that's like an 84 and I'm like starting to get a bit worried because the NME called the record raw, flawed and deeply human. Because like that's what I want at, but it's an eight. How come that's not a 10? That's a thing the NME says in a 10. You're telling me it's deeply human? Deeply human.

Not not medium, not superficially, not deeply human. Does anyone ever been like half-assed human? Like it's just kind of going halfway with the humanity? Crafts for man machine, half-assed human being, you know. I mean, I'm making jokes. I've probably called something deeply human in the past. I don't put that past me. The Miley Cyrus stands, they're going to investigate me,

and they're going to see that I use deeply human in a review back in 2015, and I'm going to be cooked. So we're really close right now, right? Yeah, so I was pretty excited because going into last week, I believe you were up by three and I'm looking at this and Sparhawks going to hold steady. You know, it looks like, you know, the pitchfork review ran, which is probably the lowest one it's going to get, but it was still positive. And Lil Sims, I was expecting that to be like a 92 and then eventually start to creep down to the mid-80s or something like that. But now it's starting at an 84.

But here's the thing. Billy Woods, I haven't checked into which review did this, but it went from an 89 to an 88 something. time in the last week. So now you're up by one. Now you're up by one with, I guess, three weeks left for things to shake out a certain type of way. That's a nail biter. So like Lil Sims,

is it just the British places that have reviewed that so far? No, it's like the, I think it's like the print ones, like your mojos and your, you know, whatever the opposite of the skinny is. But the British, but not American outlets yet.

Not yet. Okay, so I don't know. I feel like she would do better actually on the other side of the pond than here maybe. I don't know. This pitchfork like Rolling Stone,

are they gonna review Little Sims? Yeah, I mean, I think she's made like a pitchfork year endless at some point in the past. But, you know, with like Calli Uch's that's like another one where I'm like, maybe I'm one album past the peak, you know what I mean?

So now it's just like running, like in the B slot with a 7-7 instead of an A slot with an A. Yeah. So far, uncut. The skinny gave it an 80. Mojo record collector and NME. 80s across the board. Wow.

Yeah. I was relying on them. Who's on the Little Sims beat for Mojo? Because I feel like Little Sims would be outside their purview. Like they're reviewing like live at Pompeii, Pink Floyd. They're giving that like five out of five stars. Well, Mojo thinks it's her finest work yet, but it is only an 80. This is a shout to I'm looking at Steve chick.

Real name, no gimmicks. Yeah. Steve chick, isn't that like the Christian comics? Wasn't that Steve Chick? You'd know better than me. I don't know. I'm going to Google this. That sounds familiar to me.

Or Stevie Chick? Is that? Legend in two games, if so, you know? Maybe not. I might have just totally. Or Jack Chick, I guess. I think that might be it. Anyway.

All right. Man, these are always, well, I guess, did I win? decisively last time? Yeah, you won going away last time around. Right. It was like one of those, it was like one of those NBA playoff games where like a team's leading in the third quarter and then you just kind of see them give up like, okay, we're going to like save it for the next game. And then all of a sudden it's like a 39 point victory. So are you going to go to the Metacritic tribunal and get them to take out the review that lowered the Billy Wood score? Because that would make us tied. Yeah. Or say like, look, I've seen the internal discussion, Billy Wood should have been

hire a pitchfork. No way, that's an 8-7 or whatever. God, that's a nine. Yeah. So, let me see if I, let me, let me like infiltrate the Miley Stans, the Miley Cyrus stand base to see if they got a contact. This is a big case. This is a big case in our world. This could really, you know, this is like Citizens United of our thing, I think. I was thinking of the O'Bannon versus the NCAA, but I like yours better. Yours is more accurate. I'm trying to think, like, do we cheer for the stands to win or do we not want them to win? Because like, editorially, I don't want them to win. But in terms of the draft, I do want them to win because it would make the draft more fun if we could appeal directly to Metacritic to take out reviews that lower our scores. So I'm conflicted.

They can barely keep that site functional. Like the music page isn't even on the front and like you, there's so many like dead links. You can't do anything on the search. I really don't think they've got like legal, you know, lawyering up to figure out, like, if they got a case here. So, uh, I think that, I imagine this will be a thing that will, like, die in two days. But, you know, I, I actually don't want to underestimate the Miley Cyrus fan. So, uh, more to be revealed.

Man, Pino Pino Piano was on the Miley Cyrus record. Hey. Wow. Naomi Campbell is on. That's just like, that's like, no, what, didn't Prince do that? Well, is she doing like spoken word stuff? I think so, yeah. Okay.

Wow. God. Yeah, Diamond and Pearls era. That was actually on the symbol album. I'm not going to listen. I think I've decided I'm not going to listen to this record, but I'm going to put it on my year-end list just because the Wikipedia page like rock so hard. Like I love this album on paper.

And because the reviews, not just from pitchfork, are uniformly bad. Just down the board. I think Rolling Stone gave a good review to it. Four stars, yeah. But it's pretty bad otherwise. But, God, on paper, it's awesome. I really like it. So I'm not going to listen to it, but album of the year.

Yeah, what was that movie that, uh, the France Ford Coppola made Megalopolis or something like that? Right. That's what we're dealing with. That's a good, yeah, good comparison. Megalopoulos, great in theory. Did you see that movie? I did not. I saw it in the theater.

And, yeah, it was one of those things where after it was done, I didn't want to talk about it because I didn't think it was good, but I didn't want to, like, crap on it. You know, because there were people that were cheering for it to lose, and I have too much respect for the man, Francis Ford Coppola. But, yeah, it's not very good. I wanted it to be, like, Gonzo great and campy, but it's just kind of boring. I'm sad to say. I could say this now. We're several months separated from it. Give my real opinion.

The Coppola heads are going to go talk to Metacritic to you now. Copla stands are going to be flooding my Twitter account. New Big Thief album is on the way. It was announced this week. Their first album in three years, it's called Double Infinity. It comes out September 5th. Two days before my birthday. How about that?

And they put out a song from the record. I think it's the first track on the record proper. It's called Incomprehensible. And this song is incomprehensible. No. it's a pretty good song I like the song I don't think it's a home run

it's interesting with Big Thief because I feel like they have a track record of putting out a single from their record that just rules yeah you know was that song time escaping from the last thing was the one for me from that record

little things yeah I mean but that was like a year prior to the release of that record you know what was the one from like not from two hands right that was a big deal Yeah, they just knocked it out of the park. This song, I think, is solid, but it's not a home run. But, you know, it's interesting because I feel like a trend this year is artists who came

of age in the late 2010's, early 2020s, let's just call it the Trump era, or like the early Trump era. I feel like they're bricking a lot of their records this year. And we can go down the list of artists that put out albums from that era this year that aren't very good. I mean, like Lucy Dacus comes to mine immediately. I mean, I wasn't a huge fan of the Japanese breakfast record. That album was, I think, generally well reviewed,

although I feel like it kind of disappeared immediately after it came out. And there's other records. So Big The falls into that category. I don't think that they're going to be susceptible to that. The track record is so good. They haven't put out an album in a while, but, like, Adrian Linker has continued putting up music and Big Thief is a different thing,

but it's definitely in the Adrian Linker universe, so she's continued to be consistently, I think, really strong. So it's going to be good. But yeah, this song is, it's pretty good. But I wouldn't say it's my favorite Big Thief song of all time. Yeah. You know, as a note to the listener, this episode might sound a bit different

than other ones I'm recording on a different mic, a different computer. I've just had like electrical problems at home, so I haven't been able to be online all that much in the past few days. But it seems to me, and maybe that's why I'm about to say what I'm about to say, but it doesn't feel like this one is as eventful. It doesn't, as past big beef albums. One thing that, like really surprised me is that, you know, like you said,

they're constantly making music, but their album releasing years or three years apart. It seemed like they were like super prolific at the beginning. But then it's like 2019. Yeah, they put out two. records, but the next one came out in 2022, but that was a double album. And, you know, Adrian Lankard put out, what, like a 30, 40 track live album recently that I think you talked about. And, yeah, I think that this finds them in an interesting space because they had, you know, I think it was the bassist who left the band under somewhat mysterious slash acrimonious circumstances.

But, yeah, I think with this record, like one of the bands that, you know, Big Thief is way bigger than Deer Hunter, but it's sort of a similar path in that they were like super prolific at the beginning and then, you know, like Adrian Linker's solo albums might be like their version of Atlas sound and maybe Buck Meek is Lockett Punt in this metaphor. But just to how much dirtier and more distorted this sound, like is this their monomania potentially? I mean that in the sense that it's much more scaled down. This is like a nine song record. It's maybe an album that gets a claim, but also represents them post-peak. It was monomania was well received,

but at that point, it was like, okay, Dear Hunter, the music critic narrative no longer revolved around them in the same way that it had three years prior. I like the song, but the energy feels different around this one.

Well, you know, I was thinking about this because you made this point in the outline and I think it's a good point. I do think that in terms of like the critical community, it's really changed in the last year because of the disintegration of Twitter. And you don't have a situation that you had in the last 15 years, like where everyone is in the same place talking.

You got some people at the blue sky side. You got some people on the Twitter side. I'm trying to straddle both worlds, but I don't really like blue sky, the vibes there. I'm sorry, it's just not my place to be. So I think it's hard for any record to feel in a way as big in the critical community as records did, I think, before that, just because of people not being in the same place and the conversation's not unfolding in the same way. It's much more sort of bifurcated, I feel like. So I'm not saying, I think you make a, I mean, look, they put out like a career to find a. record last time. It's going to be hard to follow that up. In your comparison, how'll

Cian Digest? Like, how do you follow that record up? You know, you can't really even top that. You've got to go in a different direction. So I think there's some maybe validity there. But I also just think that in terms of like music critics, it's really hard to know like what the pulses now, I think. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And it's been, Like a lot of things happening in 2025 is something that was like true to a certain extent before, but now it feels extremely true. Like we talk about that Japanese breakfast record and how it feels like it disappeared for us. Like maybe it hasn't. Maybe it's like super popular, but just not in ways that we can quantify.

And this is also, I guess, like a parallel to how it was tough for us to tell in the Spotify era was really popular because there used to be this central thing. If you saw it on MTV or if Billboard or if you saw it heard it on the radio, that was a very tangible way to tell if something was popular. And then things started to atomize once you got to streaming. And now with the critical consensus, there is no longer that central node, aside from Metacritic, I guess. But yeah, I just don't know. I mean, in a way, I think there's some positives to that because, you know, back.

in the day, I feel like there were music critic cops that would police other people's responses to things. And there was a lot of pressure to go with the pack. And I feel like that has really gone away. Yeah. Maybe it's because some of the preachier people are on the other platform. You know, I'm just saying some of that, you know, some of that, I think, has changed. But, yeah, I don't know. The negative side is that if you want to take the pulse. And it's not just music critics, it's anything. I mean, any type of pop political or sports or whatever you used to go to Twitter for. I mean, the internet in general feels like it's falling apart.

And I'm usually like an optimist with these kinds of things. And like lately, like with the AI situation, I'm like, are we entering dystopia? It feels like in a year, we may not have the show. It could just be like AI bots doing this show. Indycast bought 3,000. Look at those clowns of Metacritic, yeah. I don't know. Again, I'm normally an optimist, but I'm feeling a little,

I'm feeling the digital chill lately for sure. I'm pretty concerned about where things are going. But anyway, segue from the DOOCast here. You know, I'm going to start going into some reverie here, start drinking whiskey at 10 in the morning. Let's talk about the new album. from Turnstile. It's out today. It's called Never Enough. I wrote about this album for Up Rocks. And I'll just say what I said in my review. I think this is one of the best albums of 2020's first half,

certainly rock albums. And I just think it's a really fun, melodic, hard rock record. I've talked about this on the show before. I love hard rock bands who are mainstream that make melodic, catchy songs. That was the music that I grew up on, whether it was Guns and Roses, deaf leopard, going into the grunge thing, Nirvana Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, going up into like deaf tones and big band Halen, one of the first bands I ever liked as a really little kid. And it just feels like that music has gone away from mainstream culture in the last 20 years or so. And Turnstile has brought it back a little bit. I think they are, the best hard rock melodic band working right now notice i said hard rock not hardcore that's part of

this band's narrative that's the scene they came from um i'm not interested in talking about whether they're hardcore or not i mean we'll talk about that i guess a little bit but they're so clearly to me part of that lineage i was just talking about mainstream bands that make just kinetic fun summertime cookout, you're at the swimming pool, you feel good when you're listening to it type hard rock music. Like the head banging songs that make you feel happy and not evil. That's music I love. And Turnstiles brought it back. And I really appreciate that about them. And I think we're going to talk a little bit about the conversation around Turnstile, which is a little bit different from the actual band, because the band to me seems, for the most part, gileless in terms of how they

approach music. I don't really detect any type of pretension in what they do, even when they kind of go off into these artier tangents on their records, and that's something that people have celebrated, the experimental side of the band. And on this record, you know, at the heart of the record, there's a couple songs that kind of blend together, and there's like electronic music elements going on. It kind of goes from punk to like more of like an ambient thing. And, but I never feel like that stuff is self-serious when I'm listening to Turnstile. It's always very digestible, very likable. Again, I feel like likeable sometimes is used as an epitette against rock bands,

but I think it's really hard, actually, to make a song that sounds just as enjoyable as this. I mean, there's a breeziness to this band that I really appreciate. And I just think this record coming out at the beginning of summer is just the greatest thing. Like, this is the greatest timing. I always appreciate when bands line up with the season that they should be played in, and that's turnstile in the summertime. So, yeah, I like this record a lot. I haven't talked to you about this.

I think we've talked a little bit about it. You were a big fan of Glow on. You wrote the review for Pitch for it. How do you feel about this as the follow-up? Well, you mentioned how this is a really great summer record, and I agree with that. And also what really helped glow on was that it came out, I think, in August of 2021. Like, and I would say like the definitive piece of when, I don't know how to describe, like, when things basically were starting to, when concerts were happening again, and things were maybe sort of kind of starting to open up during that time, there, I think the definitive version of Glow on is the hate five, six record release show in Baltimore. Like, if you really want to know what that time was like in, I guess, late summer, early fall, 2021,

watch that. I also remember seeing Turnstile play not at Pitchfork Festival, but in Chicago during Pitchfork Festival in September of that year. And I brought a couple of friends who, you know, mostly listen to rap. And they saw that show. And they're like, this is incredible. Like, this is the best show I've ever seen in my entire life. And like, don't get me wrong, not all rock shows are like this. But yeah, it was just like, I mean, that album was going to be big at any time. but it was right place, right time. And yeah, this is a fun summer record. And I do enjoy it a lot.

Like, I tempered my expectations. Like, there's no way you're going to make another glow on, or at least an album that changes the game or changes the way people talk about, like rock music in the same way. And to your point, I also appreciate how in your review you brought up Def Leppard in Van Halen's Panama before the words, hardcore or even punk. It reminds me of when I was doing the Sunday review of Def Leopard's hysteria, the conversation about metal and how Def Leopard was like talked about as a metal band, even though just like barely any metal in what they do.

It's just that their hair, their guitars, their presentation. Yeah, I guess we'll call that metal. And so. Yeah, they look like a metal band, but they're a pop band. Yeah. Their whole deal is what's great about them. Yeah. Like compare how they look compared to like the Scorpions at the time.

Like they would say like, yeah, we look more like Durand, Duran. and also turnstile, conventionally attractive band. So, yeah, I think with this, it'll be interesting how this gets received. I think it's going to be overwhelmingly positive. There might be some people who think, yeah, it's not quite as innovative as, you know, glow on, you know, what could be really. But your piece and also Eli's at Stereo Gum, like, he's writing from it very much from like, this is not hardcore. And let me talk to you about hard. He likes it too.

but you know what both of these seem to bring up is something that I've been thinking about for a while but feels more true now is that when you describe this record as fun like and I I think vibe is a good word to say it like it's very vibe based record definitely yeah and I and it's in the same way that like Taman Paula is like this is kind of like their version of the slow rush to me which is it's not currents it's not lonerism. It's not the things that like completely like completely changed the language of rock music or guitar-based music. But it's fun. It's like vivy. You can have a good time. It's good for

festivals. And I think what people have or at least what I've seen from people who aren't, you know, haven't followed turnstile this whole time is we just lack the vocabulary as a narrative or as music writers to talk about a fun, really well-performed, well-constructed rock record that isn't innovative. You know what I mean? Right. Like, you do this with pop all the time.

But with rock, it just doesn't happen. Well, when we talked about this last week about how big mainstream rock bands have traditionally just been crapped on by music critics. And I do think that there has to be some sort of punk element to a big-time band for critics to get on board. If there's not, I think they just have a hard time wrapping their heads around it because it doesn't come from the place that critics believe music, rock music has to be relevant. You know, rock music has to be experimental. It has to be sort of revolutionary in some way. It can't just be pleasurable. You know, it can't just be like fun to listen to. If it is,

then there seems to be a lot of suspicion about it. And I wrote this in my review that I do think, And I think I said this on the pod, that a lot of the hardcore talk about turnstile to me feels a little like cope for music writers who don't want to admit that this band sounds a lot of, they sound like incubus. You know, they sound like a lot of 90s rock bands. They sound like, I mean, I think Deftones is a very interesting analog because, like, deaf tones had like an inverse relationship with their genre of origin, which was New Metal. You know, like people always talked about Deftones being like the good new metal band.

I'm putting good in quotes. And they had to sort of transcend their genre, whereas with turnstile, hardcore is almost like a calling card. It's something that you can call them rather than calling them just like a rock band. And you mentioned Eli Ennis's piece for Stereogum, which I recommend everyone read. He did a great job with that. It was funny how we came from opposite sides, but arrived at the same place, I think. Yeah. Where he's coming from it as someone who loves hardcore, knows a lot about that scene.

and he's talking about how Turnstile stopped being a hardcore band a long time ago, but he's not saying that in a critical way. He loves the record. But he's saying, no, this is just a rock band. And they're really good at being a rock band. Whereas I'm coming at it from, I love, again, this lineage of melodic hard rock bands. I don't really care about hardcore. And I'm like, no, they're a rock band.

So we came to the same place, but we came, like, from opposite sides of the field, which was pretty fun to read. I think our reviews came out, like, within an hour of each other. Yeah, totally. too on that day. But yeah, I don't know. It's a, again, super fun record. We're both on board with it.

I definitely feel like I'm going to be listening to this a lot this summer. I ordered the CD. Oh, yeah. I have glow on on CD. This is such a CD band. This is like a put the CD in your car and listen to it all summer long with the windows down, which is the highest compliment I can give any record. Yeah.

Yes. I mean, with the CD piece, like people I know who really, know their stuff about like audio recording and production would say that like glow on was the most 1998 sounding snare like it's sound like it sounded like andy wallace you know had their hands on it like yeah totally yeah it's like the drums remind me of never mind and yeah i think with this album like how will it be you know held up in you know in the in the public sphere i i think the a lot of it does sound like specific glow-on songs with more reverb, but I think it's also a reflection of where they're at.

Like, um, I haven't seen like as good professional videos as the hate 5-6, uh, glow-on record release show, but, you know, that was in like a 750 to a thousand cap room in Baltimore and the never enough release show, which I think dropped a couple of weeks ago. Like that was like in a field for like 10,000 people. And it looked awesome. Um, so yeah. So, yeah, it just is turns. saying like, yeah, we're in arena rock band now.

Like, we open for Blink 182. Like, good for them. It's so rare to get this kind of record. And will it make year-end list in the same way that Glowon did, which I think Glow-on was the best reviewed album of 2021, rightfully. So, yeah, I think that this, right, it shows that like Turnstiles still got it. I'm sure there will be some reviews that say, oh, it's just kind of like Glow-on part two. It's their antics.

It's their room on fire. But those are great records, too. So... Yeah, and again, I just love that there's a record like this still, that this can still exist and that people can embrace it. And yeah, you can go see this band at the local arena and have a great time. That just warms my heart. I'm glad they're out in the world fighting the good fight for hard rock music. All right, well, let's change gears here from a band that once made a record called this is hardcore.

How about that? They literally called themselves hardcore. Talking about pulp, of course, the Brit Pop Legend. They have a new album out today. It's called Moore. And it is the first pulp record in 24 years. And, you know, I was thinking about how aging bands like this have really figured out how to make their comeback record. You know, like there used to be a time like where a band like this, you know, they would break up or they go on hiatus or they'd go away.

And then they would come back and like they would try to sound modern. you know, they would have modern production techniques, they would bring in like a hot new producer, maybe they're going to have like features from like cool young artist to try to make them look hipper than they are. And this is true of this record, and I think it's also true of like the Stereo Lab record that came out a couple weeks ago.

It's like these bands, they just know that all we have to do is make an extremely us record. You know, a record that like sounds like us, like a record that we could have made 20 years ago. And it's funny that it took so long, I think for people to figure this out, like we had to move through like the 80s and the 90s and seeing people either going like that young hip route

or like hiring Rick Rubin and doing like the Johnny Cash American recordings. Like I'm going to write songs about death and like how I'm super old. Throw all that away. And it's like, no, we're just going to do what we do. And so I'm a fan of the. this record. I think it's actually like quite a good record. I kind of wonder if I'm going to be

listening to it after this episode. I mean, if I'm reaching for a pulp record, it's probably not going to be this one. But I really admired it. I was listening to it and I was thinking like, damn, Jarvis Cocker is 62 years old. And like, he kind of makes more sense as a guy in his 60s. He has like that Leonard Cohen thing, like where he's like aged into his persona. You know, like where As a younger man, you know, maybe he's sort of aspiring to this sort of like lounge lizard, cool guy vibe. And now he's actually like an old guy doing that. And in a way, it makes more sense. Yeah, because I think when Pulp, I know they started when like he was super young, but by the time they got, you know, like headline Glastonbury, they were kind of older than a lot of the bands that they were as popular as.

And I think that they appeal to, certainly an American audience is to like kind of old soul type people. Like, you know, like kind of like a Nick Cave guy where it's like, yeah, I know they made music like a couple decades ago. But to me, they've always been sort of 50s or 60s or, you know, so yeah. And I made that as a compliment. Like they've like you could, there was absolutely no doubt that when you were going to go into this record, it was going to sound like pulp. And, you know, lo and behold, what does it sound like? It sounds like pulp. That's awesome.

And yeah, I enjoyed it. And I think you get to a point. Like, the one thing, you mentioned buying a turnstile on CD. I need to have this album on CD. Like, I bought this as hardcore. Not so much because, like, I listened to this music and think, yeah, this is like, I can't remember. It wasn't youth, but they definitely had, like, one of those big Brit type producers from the 90s doing their thing. I need to read the lyric sheet.

Like, it is just not the same experience for me to go on genius.com. It would actually be pretty funny if, uh, if Jarvis Cocker was on there, annotating his lyrics, like he's Will Toledo or like, uh, or like, uh, you know, Playboy Carty or something like that. But yeah, it's like, you know, the second song on this record is about him, like, looking at a woman on the train and, uh, just doing like the most extremely pulp things. And, um, yeah, it's good. It's being well reviewed right now.

if I knew it was going to be out this quarter by when we did our fantasy draft. There was, I mean, we would have fought over this one probably as number one because you're, you're going to get the 45 year old, uh, uh, and up music writer doing it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to review it enthusiastically. I think it's-old music writer community is eating on this record, man. Eating.

Yeah. Uh, loving it. Yeah, but I also think that it's sort of, like, like those records you've talked about with, like, the Stereo Lab one or, you know, if we want to bring it back to the emo world, when Braid made a new album in 2014 or the American Football comeback album, they were really well received and people like them, rightfully so. But like at the end of the year, they weren't making a year endless. It'll definitely make the mojo one or whatever. But yeah, I think it's going to be, like, when I want to listen to Pulp, I'm going to go for this as hardcore. You know, like when I want

that, it's like right now when I'm on my way to work and I'm just trying to be, like, to get familiar with it, you know, for the purposes of this episode. Yeah, I'll listen to it, but I don't, it's a good record. Is it A-List? No, I don't think so. Yeah, like, in the outline, I think you compared it to like a good Latter-day Franz Ferdinand record. This is exactly. Yeah. I think that's a good comparison, because there are records like this, you know, think of like the My Bloody Valentine record that came out, MBV, yeah, 20-some years after Loveless. That feel, I think that record felt more like a real statement. Yes.

You know, like, oh, this is maybe their best record, or it's in the running for, like, their best record. Like, this record, to me, feels more like, it's really good, and I'm happy it exists, and I assume that they're going to be touring, and I've never seen Paul, but they, I saw Jarvis Cocker, actually, once at Pitchfork Fest, but... What year was that?

Was that, like 2012, 2013? Could be. I mean, I was probably there too. But, uh, yeah. Yeah, he was like wearing a suit and it was like 150 degrees outside. Just looked. But he didn't look sweaty. That's how cool he is.

He didn't look sweaty at all. Um, in the hierarchy of like 90s Brit Pop, British Rock, where do you put pulp? Uh, well, I guess this is a question of like where they stand in terms of reputation. Like I would say, no, just, no, just like your personal preference. Yeah, yeah, just for you. Okay. Well, they're definitely below the verb, and by that I mean urban hymns. Like, to me, that's just, like, the epitome of it.

Right. I think they're below blur. I think that they're below oasis in terms of music I enjoy. But, you know, that kind of varies because, like, so much of the music I love from all those bands is concentrated to such a short period of time that I would, yeah, I would put them, like, fourth at best. Yeah. I think I would too. I would put Oasis number one for me, obviously. I'd have the verb up there too.

I'd actually put Supergrass up there as well. I mean, I was just thinking about like, well, hardcore. This is hardcore. That was 98, I think. Yeah, that was my last year of high school, yeah. Because I was thinking about like 97 for that, for Brit Pop. Just a fascinating year because you have the blur self-titled. You have In It for the Money by Supergrass, which is, I think, a masterpiece.

You have Urban Hems. by the verb, which I also think is a masterpiece. And then you have Be Here Now, Oasis. What a year, man. Yeah, and also, I think Radiohead puts something out there. Oh, of course. Yeah, a little album called OK Computer, which is probably my favorite album of the last, you know, 35 years or so.

Is it 35 years? No, it's from 97. It's like almost... 28, 28 years. Yeah, 30 years would be, yeah, 30 years. Can't add it up. This is why AI's coming in. It's picking up our brink.

brains. Let's go to our mailbag segment. Thank you all for writing in. It's always great to hear from our listeners, or it's like great 98% of the time. The other 2% is maybe we won't talk about that. But anyway, thank you for writing in. You can hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. This is an interesting email. I thought you would maybe get into this one, Ian. Do you want to read it? Yeah. All right. So this comes to us from Mike from Kansas City, not Max, Kansas City. Sorry about the cheese, but, yeah, actually not. Mike's Kansas City. I love the idea of Mike's Kansas City, like being like a spite store for Max Kansas City.

Yeah, like the McDowell's or from coming to America. All right, so listening to your most recent show when you mentioned the upcoming Grizzly Bear tour and the success they almost had, it may remember my favorite grizzly bear moment. Do you all remember when Jay Z was stumping for Grizzly Bear? I think he said stuff like it reminded him of the days when hip-hop was starting. He heaps... I will get into this, believe me. He keeps some real praise on them.

For me, this was the moment where I felt like they were going to skyrocket into the iconic indie rock legends they were meant to be. So this got me thinking, do you have any favorite, let's just call it crossover genre endorsements for indie rock? The ones that come to mind are Kid Cuddy's love for MGMT in one of my favorite vibe moments live ever. Or more recently, how the rapper Mike will often mention King Cruel as a defining band that helped him make music.

The endorsement can be in the form of sampling, reference material, or even just attending an unexpected show, such as John Waters going to see Trapped Under Ice late last year. Shout to Baltimore. Either way, love your thoughts on best unexpected or cross-genre endorsements for indie rock. Pardon the glaze, but it goes without saying. Love the show. Love y'all's writing. And once more, plus one for keeping sportscast alive and well. Nice.

Nice. Yeah, we didn't do sportscast. We didn't do sportscast this episode. We could have talked about the NBA Finals. I feel like the NBA finals could probably use some publicity from us. It feels like it's going to be maybe a bit of a struggle. I'm excited for the NBA finals. I guess by the time this episode posts,

well, I've already seen Game 1 and hopefully Indiana's making it a series. I mean, like, OKC is so favored in this series. And it's like, I know that they ran through the opening rounds here pretty handily, but they've never won anything. It seems a little extreme. I don't know. I think people are underrating Indiana. We'll see what happens. But anyway, he kind of willed a sports cast into the mailbag there just by mentioning it.

The thing I thought of immediately, and this isn't, I guess, indie rock, but I do think it's a fascinating thing is how cold play has been embraced by the hip-hop community over the years. Like so many rappers love cold play. And, you know, we can mention Jay-Z at the top of that list, but, like, Chris Martin was on a Kanye West record. There's, like, a huge, there's, like, a whole, like, Wikipedia page talking about just, like, all of the hip-hop artists that have either sampled Coldplay or, you know, talked about how much they love Coldplay and interviews. So I always think that's funny just because of Coldplay's image as, like, this white bread band that, you know, music critics love to crap on for being boring. and yet you have all these rappers who like just think cold play is the shit. Yeah, it's sort of like that economy is. Yeah, it's sort of like with rock, yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, so I think you gave me unintentionally a shout to a Coleplay album ranking list that will probably be publishing the day this post. I shied away from just going straight up on the 20-year anniversary of X and Y, which is that the best Coldplay album? You're just going to have to read to find out. I love that you seize the first. upon the 20th anniversary of X and Y.

Like, is that any other music critics calendar? Like, not just the Coldplay album, but, I mean, it's between, like, two huge hits. And that's, like, kind of like, the weird disappointment. It was a big hit, too. That's true. It was the best selling record, I think, of that year. Yeah, it was the first to go number one in America. And I also talk about, like, how maybe the most 2005 pop culture moment is the 40-year-old

virgin that scene where Paul Rudd and. Seth Rowe's playing video games. Like, you know how I know you're gay? You like Coldplay. X and Y came out two months prior to that. But yeah, look, I would figure you'd like X and Y more than that. Oh, I do. That's their arena rock album.

I'm an X and Y fan. I'm just saying that in the realm of Coldplay records, I feel like that would not be the album people would seize upon to write about them. So I think it's a very idiosyncratic choice. Going with you, also hating, I'm wide awake, it's morning. and love an X and Y your 2005 music opinions is just incredible

I love it Yeah so So to Mike's question of like Do I remember when JZ Reps for Grizzly Bear I like post Maybe more than like I rep X and Y on Twitter Like I'll post the 2009 article

Written by Tom Brihan Where it's so It's so hilarious Because they superimposed this grainy picture of Jay Z on a Grizzly Bear. And the headline is Jay Z. Rets for Grizzly Bear. And I quote, what the indie rock movement is doing right now is very inspiring.

That is such a, like, when I was, like, when I was listening to two weeks, you know, I'm thinking, yeah, this is just like cool Herc. You know, back. This is exactly. That was. That was the peak, though, man. 09. Yeah. Things were popping that year.

You know, Animal Collective, Grizzly Bear, dirty projectors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's Blitz, the X-X, yeah, all that stuff.

It was, it really was an incredible movement. But yeah, I just love that story so much. Because, yeah, like, you could have got a dross to, like, or like Daniel Rosson doing,

doing a hook on the blueprint three. Yeah, like, why, well, that album was asked. Yeah, there should have been, like, a collision course album with Cusley Bear and JZ. It was all good two weeks ago. Like, that would be great.

Collision course, part two. Instead of Lincoln Park, it's Grizzly Bear. And it'd be fun, like, if Jay-Z just did Collusion Course albums every five years, like whatever band was, you know, popular at the moment. So,

you know, maybe do, like, a sleep token album in 2025. Closure Course 7. I'm thinking back to the Made in America Festival that used to be in Philadelphia, where it would be, like, all the rock, all the rock nation artists, but like, you would get, like, on the lowest stage,

possible like touchy amore and balancing composure so uh yeah maybe do like one with all those mid 2010's like kind of quasi post hardcore bands we got great ideas here but this is brilliant yeah it's good jasy on the horn man get him on the horn yeah yeah chopo traphouse willed their rxk nephew song about john fetterman into the world this is what we're doing in our podcast but yeah as far i mean this is it's such a great question i'm thinking about the this picture that where i Martha Stewart at a Godspee, you black emperor gig. No, I'm not going to check to see if it was AI. I'm pretty sure it's real.

But, you know, I'm thinking about talking about AI. There's like this category of internet content where it, I have to describe it as pre-AI because it looks so uncanny that it just has to be AI. It almost kind of looks like AI slop. And the one that immediately comes to mind is there is, an episode of Jimmy Fallon where I want this this had to be like maybe early

2010s where Mark Kozlik is on playing Mistress which is a Red House Painter's song but his backing band is the roots wow you gotta look that it's it's not like dark web stuff like he is there he is playing this

song and like you see Questlove just holding down the beat like looking super cool on the RXK Nephuvie I'm thinking about that spiritual cramp out from a few years ago where they had an R.SK nephew feature. Another one,

and this is not indie rock as well, but I remember like in 2009 or something like that, like Big Boy revealed himself to be a big Kate Bush fan. Yeah. He has gotten so much mileage out of that. Yeah.

Because like he's made like a lot of not great music on his solo albums. But yeah, I mean, that comes to mind too. And I think it's, just, it's not as, you know, like Danny Brown, I think is maybe the person who, uh, is the biggest connector from the indie rock world to the rap world nowadays. Like, you know, I saw him open for knocked loose. He was on the most recent Jane Remover record. Um, yeah, like, we could spend hours and

hours and hours talking about that. But unfortunately, the, nothing's ever topping, uh, nothing will ever top what indie rock movement is doing. What the indie rock movement is doing, what the indie rock movement is doing right now is very inspiring and you want to know the best part about this story is that you see Jay Z and Beyonce at a grizzly Bear show and the song that like they're enjoying is ready

able. That's like not even one of the hits. That's like one of the songs on like Beckett Timis that like people don't really remember. Well he's a true head. He's a true head. He's going deep. I'm not just a two weeks guy. I'm going deep into the record. I'm digging the deep cuts just shows you that Jay

was totally sincere. And I should say, too, just to bring this all full circle, you know, Miley Cyrus working with always on her new record. Yeah. That's a bit of a thing here, too. So, you know, kind of ties it up into a bow like that, I think. We've not reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? So I've been practicing saying this band's name because the band is called Clare Audience. It is not to be confused with Cloradience, which is the opening track from Stephen Hyden Bright Eyes favorite Cassadaga. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I've had to look up how to spell this band's name. But yeah, so I'd never heard of their new record.

It came out a few weeks ago. It's called Letters from Emptiness. And I'd never heard of them before, before our pal Larry Fitzmaurice, described them as actually good shoegaze, which, you know, I'm always a little skeptical about that designation because I think this is particularly true with, like, positive reviews that you see of good, shoegaze bands or, like, even the stereo guise. mid-year list where every good shoegaze review talks about like, yeah, this genre is like super oversaturated and there's so many uncreative bands, but not this one, not this one that I'm writing about. But the good news with this record is that it's only kind of shoegaze. It's very much in that cranky records lane that incorporates ambient and drone and maybe a little

sprinkling of late 90s electronica or like IDM and also some shoegays. basically I don't even know if we've done a Indycast Hall of Fame where we've inducted a sunny day in Glasgow but like every single thing they've ever made

is a candidate for that love that band they've never put off enough music I wish they'd come back this is about as close as you can get in 2025 to a band where I can say

hey you want like a cranky day in Glasgow cranky spell with a K as a label I can drop that recommend and if you like that should be enough for you to check this out

Yeah, that sounds cool. I might have to dig into that album. I haven't really listened to a ton of sunny day in Glasgow either. I've got to dig into that band at some point. It's all good. All of it's good. I want to talk about a band from Chicago called Lifeguard. They have a new album out today called Ripped and Torn on Madador Records.

And if you like Madador Records historically, Lifeguard is an extremely Matador sounding band. They hail from Chicago, very young members. They're a trio. I think in Chicago, parents train their kids to form indie rock bands because it just seems like they produce a ton of bands and they're all really young and they all like were born, you know, in the 2000s. And yet they sound like just classic 90s indie rock. I don't know how they do it. These parents just must be playing, you know, pavement records and guided by voices records like in the womb. And these kids just come up and they're able to make that kind of music.

extremely well. And my reaction to this band, it was sort of similar to this other band I talked about recently in Recommendation Corner called The Convenience, a band from New Orleans, and similarly a young band that just makes kind of straight down the line indie rock. It is the kind of music where you think, wow, is this just referencing something I like or is it actually good? And you listen to it enough times and you're like, no, this is actually good. It's like really well executed. And this is a a band where I feel like this record is really good and it's teeing up something that they're going to do next. Like I feel like this is the kind of album that you introduce yourself to people and then like in two years, that becomes the album that is your calling card.

So I'm buying stock at this point anticipating that this band goes through the roof in the future. I think that they have a good shot of doing it. Again, they're called Lifeguard. The album's called Ripped and Torn. This album's getting some good press. I don't know if you've listened to this yet, Ian. Yeah, I have. And we talked about, like, pulp being a record that's going to be well received from the 45 and up music critics.

I also think that's the case with Lifeguard. Like, kind of the same way that the horse, like, you know, they're, like, connected to horse girl. It's kind of a similar sort of thing. So what this record reminded me of is the first women record. Like, if we want to talk about, like, remember some. remember some women, I guess. Well, even though they were all guys, shout Cindy Lee. But yeah, because I had an inclination to listen to that self-titled women out in 2008. And this kind of had a similar sort of sound to it. I was talking with like Larry and he was saying, like, yeah,

this reminds me of a car occult. I'm like, God damn, this is like some real remembering of some guys. But yeah, I think that they're a good band. I think that there are well studied. I think they, in the same way that you're like, yeah, this is like way too. catered to my taste for me to not be skeptical. I'm like, their taste is too perfect. Like, in the same way horse girls are, where it's like, yeah, they don't have any, like, did they have like a, like a shitty music phase? Like, it just makes me think of like all the 13 and 14 year olds I would see at Pitchfork

Festival where it's like, man, you are skipping over some real formative experiences if you're listening to like pavement at that age. But I just think it's the parents. I think the parents, you know, they're taking these kids to like Reckless Records. when they're like two years old and they're indoctrinating them. It's just like we're going to brainwash you with indie rock from the time you're a very small person and you're just going to grow into these like super beings of indie music

and you're going to be indie music prodigies. And just like how they do that like with gymnasts, you know, like you get the gymnast early. You get like the tennis prodigies. Like in Chicago they're producing indie rock prodigies. You know, Stephen Malcolm has just moved to Chicago. This is probably related to that. They're bringing in Melchmus.

to be like, you know, I don't know Harry Potter well enough. Whoever the teacher isn't Harry Potter. That's who Malcolm is. I don't know either. For the Academy of Indy Rock in Chicago. I'm on to you, Chicago. I can see what you're doing. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast.

We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.