Indiecast - New Music From Car Seat Headrest And Jason Isbell, Plus: The Guy From Yuck Won An Oscar!

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

Steven and Ian begin today's episode by celebrating the recent Oscar win for Daniel Blumberg, who picked up a trophy for scoring the The Brutalist, and his apparently disavowed past as the frontman for underrated early 2010s indie-rock band Yuck (1:24). The guys stay on the "Remember Some Guys" tip by noting this week's reunion news for The Beta Band, who will also be reissuing their beloved 1998 album The Three EPs (7:14).After that they discuss the recent album announcement from Car Seat Headrest, their first in five years, and assess the current state of this late-2010s favorite (15:25). They also review the new Jason Isbell album out today, Foxes In The Snow (25:58).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the latest from Baths and Steven (in matters unrelated to personal hygiene) recommends the new album from The Tubs (59:19).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 229 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the guy from Yuck winning an Oscar, as well as a new album announcement from Carsey Headrest and a new album from Jason Isbell. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He's convinced that someone from Woo Life will eventually win an Academy Award Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? And I will just say it's not the guy from Woo Life. His name is Ellery James Roberts. All us true, Woo Lifeheads know that. But yeah, I think there's like a lot of 2011 remember some guys in the air right now because you were talking about the second pains of being pure

at heart album a few weeks ago. Wu Life's post-breakup fan, Lost Under Heaven just broke up recently. Youth Lagoon and Baths are making great records. Maybe I just need to look at what the hooray for Earth guy's been up to. I think that guy can maybe surprise us in 2025. Well, we have a great destroyer record coming up at the end of March. If you want to call him a 2011 guy because of...

Boni Bear as well, yeah. Bonnie Bear is coming back. But yuck. Daniel Bloomberg, of course, is who we're referring to. He won, or is it Blumberg or Bloomberg? I think it's Blomberg. Daniel Blumberg, won an Academy Award last weekend for best original score for the Brutalist.

And look, social media is a cesspool. We all know that. But it was a positive thing, at least in our corner of social media this week, to see the outpouring of love for Yuck, the band that Daniel Blumberg was in. Did he leave after the first record? He left after the first record. And I know this because I reviewed the second Yuck record for Pitchfork and I think an EP after that. I also reviewed a couple of Blumberg projects.

You know, to us real Blumberg heads, he's not just the guy from Yuck. He's the guy from Cajunton Dance Party and Upa and an album called Hebronics that I reviewed in 2013. Okay, but like, by the way, saying the guy from Yuck is not a put down because as we've seen this week, people love Yuck and they love that first record. And I would say that being the guy from Yuck is more of a honor than being the guy from Hebronics. But, you know, maybe the Bloomberg fans would, or the Blumberg fans would disagree on that. Well, I would tell you, do you know who does not like being that guy from Yuck?

Daniel Blumberg, because he's been. He doesn't like it. Yeah, he's spent so many years, like trying to distance himself. And I imagine that, like, because I read the pitchfork interview that was done about the Brutalist soundtrack. They don't mention Yuck once. I imagine that there's probably like a police zone talk. about this band with him.

See, which is odd because that's a great record. Oh, it's awesome. And I think you saw that this week in the indie rock sphere, people just remembering how good that first album is. And I wonder why he feels that way. Is it because of the band name? Is it because they are perceived maybe in some circles as being like a one and done band?

I mean, one and done because he left the group. Yeah. I mean, that has a lot to do with it. But I don't know. When I listen to that Yuck record, I mean, it starts with Get Away, which is just a killer song. It's a song that is so good that you almost don't listen to the rest of the record because you just listen to that song over and over again. But I listen to that record and I'm like, if this band came out now, they would be, I think, a, I think they would be a sure thing for getting on year-end best of list because there's so many. bands attempting to do what they do on that record, which is essentially 90s indie rock revivalism.

You know, you've got some Yola Tango, you got some Dinosaur Jr. All those types of flavors on there. And they do it so well. And it does show how, like, there's a lot of bands trying to do that. And I feel like, yuck, they nailed it so perfectly on that record. So, Blumberg, if you're listening, which probably not. You're probably listening to, like, prestigious film. scorecast right now, not indie cast. But if you are listening, take some pride in that record.

I think this week it showed that that is considered to be a classic in the hearts of many an indie rock fan out there. Yeah. And I know, and I've also listened to the solo albums. He's made under his own name, where he's kind of more into like improv, like Derek Bailey and Scott Walker. They're borderline unlistinable to me. But you could see the direction. he was going in, but I still think it's worth reiterating how nuts it is that this guy won a best original score Oscar, because you look at like Johnny Greenwood and Trent Resner, like, you know, you look at their original bands and there's like a cinematic component to it. You can see the vision, plus they're like kind of a value add with names, but this is the guy

who did suicide policemen and rubber, which is an unbelievable song. Also, their publicist, Daniel Gill, who I think is a friend of the pod, he pulled out a issue of Magnet Magazine that had Yuck on the cover. It's like, this is the band that made the best album of 2011. Like, that's an extremely 2011 magazine and thing to say. Yeah, I love the Yuck album, kind of like the pains of being pure at heart. If it came out right now, it would be just as big, if not bigger, despite like the almost complete deconstruction of the indie. journalistic field. Well, I mean, I just think that when it came out, 2011 is a very weird year for indie rock

in particular because, and we've talked about this many times, but that was in the beginning of a transition away from bands like that and toward more of a pop-oriented type world. Certainly in terms of what media was into at the time. I mean, I feel like a band like Yuck, or I think I talked about this with the pains of being pure at heart with their second record. belong. It was just catnip for critics who wanted to write thick pieces about how guitar music was irrelevant and now we should all just write, you know, sort of big love letters to Beyonce that are like 10,000 words long. Like that was the beginning of that in the early 2010s. So in a way,

I feel like this kind of record, people are more open to it now in a weird way than they were at the time that it came out. And there is something. going on, I think, a little bit and look, social media distort, so it's hard to put too much stock in that. You've got to take it with a little bit of a grain of salt, but there was an announcement

this week that the beta band is coming back, that they're doing a reunion tour later this year, and beta band is about 10 years before Yuck. So it's not exactly the same era. It's a pretty different era, actually. But Beta Band, again, is another group I think like Yuck, where

if you were writing the history of, music or indie rock of, you know, the early 21st century, late 20th century, you wouldn't necessarily focus on these bands. You wouldn't focus on Yuck or the beta band. They don't feel like they're the most important groups of their era. And yet when they come up, I do feel like there's like this untapped reservoir of goodwill that comes about. With the beta band, you know, they're this group. They're most associated with that one scene in high fidelity where John Cusack plays dry the rain in the record store and he says I'm going to sell five copies of the

three EPs by the beta band that's in a weird way their legacy now I think when people think about them but they are a band that like when I think about them to me they're like Radiohead if Radiohead had a goofy sense of humor you know that was the slot that they were in in my

mind you have the three EPs which is a classic but then you have Hot Shots 2 yeah which is the next record that's a really good record No, no, no. The self-titled came between three EPs and Hot Shots 2. That's the one with the Beta Band rap on it. See, I like that record too. Yeah, they went a little too wacky with that.

But the self-titled record, okay, so I missed up the order. It's funny that Hot Shots 2 came after the self-title record. But those are all really good records. In a way, they were almost too goofy, I think, where people didn't take them maybe as seriously as they should have, because they were, I think, fairly radiohead-like in terms of their experimentation and the way that they were trying to bridge the gap between being like a old-school English rock band and like electronic music and some of the sort of eclectic sounds that were going on at the time, you know, sort of the outgrowth of like the Beck Desperothers-Otelay

type thing. That was really popular in the late 90s. I think that they actually did do a lot of serious great music at the time, but they had kind of a goofy image, which I find endearing, but maybe that undermined them a little bit. But I was pleased to see them coming back. I never actually got to see them back in the day. Yeah, I never got to see them either.

And we're talking about the Radiohead connection. I was supposed to see the Amnesiac tour at Bull Run in Manassas, Georgia. The beta band was opening. So I was seriously stoked for that. And it rained so hard that day. that a ticket that said rain or shine. Like the show got canceled. We saw American Pie 2 that night instead.

Not a fair trade. Wow. Yeah, I know. That's like the most 2001 summer thing imaginable. But you mentioned like, yeah, they were kind of intentionally goofy. Like they would have like 15 minutes songs. I listened to the three EPs the other day, which I don't do too often because it's like five hours long. No, it's not.

I know. like 75. Come on. You need jam band ears, man. Yeah, I totally do. Jam band ears, that record flies by. Yeah. And here's the thing, monolith, one of my favorite songs on that record.

And that's the one that people always say, yeah, I skip that one. But, yeah, they did kind of come in this wave of post-back, post-beasties, Grand Royal, sort of goofy approach that, like, I would include super furry animals and corner shop and badly drawn boys. Something that sounds like so extremely. extremely dated now, but in a way I enjoy because you will not make music like that in 2025. And as much as I don't... Why not, though? Why can't we have more bands like that and less of the talky post-punk bands?

Well, if you're a British rock band, can you maybe listen to these records and take some influence rather than just regurgitating the talky post-punk thing? I mean, I like a lot of those bands, but I feel like we've played that out. I understand what you mean about it feeling dated because it was almost like the point of a lot of those. Yeah. Oh, we're a rock band that has, you know, samples. And we're also going to maybe have some Basanova in here. And it seemed like it was front-loaded.

I think you could do that, though, now in a way that felt more integrated. That also had the sense of fun that a lot of those groups had. Because I do think that that is missing maybe, certainly from like English indie rock lately. Or at least the stuff that's getting cover. I mean, like, I know that. I don't want to reduce, and no one who likes the beta band wants to reduce their impact to that one scene, even though it's like just such a perfect scene to encapsulate, like, what the late 90s were like, because nobody was like, you know, unless you worked at a record store and listened to stuff that

record store clerks like, you wouldn't hear like Nick Drake or Basanova or, like, record scratching on an indie rock album. And it was supposed to be this glimpse of a future that, did occur where genres didn't exist, but you had to kind of work harder to put those things together back in 1999. Now it's just like, it doesn't quite hit the same because like, yeah, of course everyone listens to everything all the time. But Hot Shots 2, though, is much more interesting because it's not, I mean, there is some samples. There's like a kind of a quasi rap song about pizza at the end of the record, but it's a little more serious. It's like their serious album. Also from

Heroes to Zero's. I listened to that for the first time. It sounds weirdly like you too. Yeah. Yeah, I like this band a lot. I'm glad they came back. And I also like the fact that it's like kind of a contained excitement. It's not like, oh, they're going to play like stadiums

or they're going to play like arenas. No, they're going to do like probably like a five date US tour at like the thousand cap rooms. You know, everyone got to make there. I'm going to sell five tickets to the beta band reunion. show joke, and we're all happy about it. I do like how the kind of fractured, decentralized nature of music fandom and music journalism has allowed things like the Yuck record and the beta band reunion to have like a commensurate response, you know? Yeah, I mean, because I do feel,

and to tie back to what I was saying at the beginning where we were talking about Yuck, I do think that there is a knee-jerk dismissal of some of these bands of Indy Rock's past, that we look at and we say, well, they're a band of their time or they're a band that maybe didn't define music at the particular moment. And then, you know, the world moved on to something else. And when these things happen, it shows like, no, there's actually like a lot of affection for this stuff.

And maybe that says something about how the discourse or the conversation is maybe a little too overly focused on other things. That there are these records and these bands that do mean something and are more significant than they might seem. Especially that first Yuck record. I do think that is such an interesting album because if it had come out five years earlier or like 10 years later,

I think it would be looked at differently than how it is, which is coming out at this moment where it was just preordained from somebody that this was not relevant really music anymore. And so therefore we don't have to take it seriously. And meanwhile, I think that there are records that probably ended up high on year-end list in 2011 that no one even remembers anymore.

And if you brought them up, there wouldn't be much enthusiasm. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but be that as it may, the outgrowth or the outpouring of love for Yuck this week and for the beta band, it made me feel good. It was a positive development in an otherwise cesspool of conversation. that exists online. Let's talk about something new that happened this week, which is an album announcement

from a group you might remember from the 2010s. Feels like it's been a while. It has been a while since this band has done anything. I'm talking about Carseat Headrest. They announced a new record this week. It's called The Scholars. It's their first album in five years

coming after making a door less open, which came out. I'm trying to remember if it was before. before the pandemic or if it was right as the pandemic was coming down. I think it was like right after. Yeah, I think it was like March or April. It was like May. It was May.

Yeah. I distinctly recall because I did review that album for Pitchfork like April, like very, very early pandemic, just like walking around my neighborhood, listening to that album because like, you know, I couldn't go to the gym. I couldn't do anything. It was, yeah, it's in a way like I haven't, I don't remember much of the music on that record,

but I do remember the experience of listening to and writing about it. It's very burned in my brain as like a definitive early pandemic record, which I think in some ways, like in this, like the pandemic obviously like, you know, put a lot of bands careers to a halt, but I oddly feel like the pandemic maybe sort of kind of help people

forget that this album was like a real flop. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting. album in a lot of ways and I'd be curious to go, I'm sure I will go back because I assume I'll end up writing about this new car seat headrest album which by the way is a rock opera

which I'm on board with I tend to support rock operas even when they don't really work very well and there was a single release from the record that I like it's called Gessamine I think that's how it's pronounced Getsamine

it's an 11-minute song which is not unusual for car seat headrest I mean they do have long songs so it's not like they're pushing their usual boundaries with that they've got a little bit of fish in them in that way there's actually a 19-minute song on this record which I haven't heard yet but I'm definitely interested

I mean with car seat head red songs they're long songs but they feel like sweets you know it feels like there's maybe two or three songs in the space of one song And I would say that that's true of this new song that was released. It definitely builds from a quieter opening section to more of a rousing conclusion by the end of the song in a manner that you could say is reminiscent of their most famous song,

which is drunk drivers, killer whales, that has a similar structure to that. But yeah, Carcy Headrest, they're a band. I actually wrote about this band in my second book, Twilight of the Gods, which came out in 2018. And when I wrote that book, I put them toward the end, and I was talking about them

as like a band of the future. Because it felt like in 2018 that this was going to be a band that was going to dominate indie rock for at least maybe the next five to seven years. And this was right after Teens of Denial, of course, which is a big record. And I think still

feels like a landmark record of the late 2010's indie rock. I mean, I still think it's a great record and it feels like an important album of that time. There was a long gap between that record and making a door less open. And I remember when making a door less open came out, there was a press cycle where Will Toledo.

And this was before the pandemic, you know, came down. He was doing interviews in a mask. Yeah, a gas mask. It was going to be like a motif of the album and the tour. It's like him doing, it's like his version of Bono doing Macfisto, I guess, from Zoot TV era. You know, he's adopting this persona for the record. And then the album comes out and there's like three different versions of it.

I don't know if you remember this, but there was like, oh yeah, God. There was like a CD version, a vinyl version. That was such a pain in the ass to review because of that. And a streaming version. And they were like mostly the same, but they were like slightly different. They were like different. Some songs were longer on one album and it was a weird thing.

And it just, I think it spoke to how confused that. album felt when it came out. The presentation felt muddled, the presentation of the actual record felt muddled, and then the pandemic happens. And you made an interesting case that maybe in a way that helped the record because it overlooked or maybe it excused how that album did. Maybe it would be looked at as more of a flop. I just feel like this band's been missing in action for a long time.

They made some live albums, right? Like I some live albums. Yeah. And I saw them open for Interpol at Madison Square Garden. And like, when was that? I think it was like 2022, something like that. And they were really good. I enjoyed the show.

I was a little surprised how well it went over being in this huge arena. I was like way back to. And there weren't a lot of people sitting around me in the section I was in. Yeah, I saw them in 2022 as well. Well, that was when I interviewed Bartiz Strange and he was opening up for car seat headrest. And the crowd was this, I mean, it was sold the fuck out for real. And I remember this bizarre crowd of like furries, which, because that's like Will Toledo is like a very public furry and like San Diego State frack guys. And they were all just like just kind of like chilling together.

And so, you know, the way I kind of view car seat headrest now is that I don't want to say that like, like a flop sort of helped them. But I do think that this band kind of better exists as a cult phenomenon on the periphery. And I compared making a door less open to Titus Andronicus local business, which was kind of the duller follow-up to their phenomenal big rock opera predecessor. Like teens of denial was kind of like the monitor to me. And in the same way that Titus Andronicus, made a quote return to form with an actual rock opera the most lamentable tragedy this kind of feels

like it's tracking as well and so i kind of am intrigued by carcce and headrest in like a bi-low kind of way where you know they may like you know like how the eagles did picking up like sequan barclay and saquan barclay and zach bond like these kind of bi-low sort of prospects and just like in a new environment they could really do their thing um i'm interested in seeing that also when we said like teens in denial being like a landmark record i think the real car seat headrest heads like the ones who were there since earliest band camp days would probably say twin fantasy is like that's the masterpiece yeah but i mean which sure but like in terms of like overall oh yeah indy rock it's it's it's teams of denial yeah for me it's not even close like teams and that's the big record i do think that

But considering the back catalog of Carcy Hadris, the pre-Indy fame catalog, they are a band that's like sneaky old in a way, you know, like where they have like a lot of records already, which does maybe influence these later records and whether you want to say that they're tapped out or not. I mean, to put it, I guess, in the least charitable way. Like is this a band who has exhausted their ideas? because making a doorless open, it felt like that kind of record when it came out. And just the fact that it took so long for it to come out

when Will Toledo previously had been a very prolific songwriter and record maker. I mean, that record, it had the feel like flop sweat to it. Like where now I have an audience and maybe I'm overthinking this record a little bit.

And now you have an even longer gap for this record. It does make you wonder, okay, has this band have they missed their moment? Have they, again, exhausted all of their good ideas at this point? I do like the single. I don't think it's as good as teens of denial or like the band camp records that precede it.

I mean, like, Twin Fantasy is the big record, but like there's other albums from that era that are also like really good. Monomania, baby. Two, the second best monomania of that era. Yeah. that record and I'm just trying to How to Leave Town. It's good. Yeah. That's a great record. I mean, I was a huge car seat headrest fan

in the late 2010s. And now they seem like a friend that I haven't talked to in 10 years. Yeah. And now they just texted me and they want to hang out and go get a beer. And it's like, on one hand, you're like, oh yeah, I had a great time with that person. And it'd be fun to catch up. And on the

other hand, you're like, oh, is it going to be weird and awkward? Like, when we get back together. We just sort of outlived our moment. And that's where I'm going to be curious about the Car Seat Headrest record as we dig into it. And we'll talk more about the album when it actually comes out. But yeah, Car Seat Head Rest and Courtney Barnett. In my mind, they're grouped together. Because I also wrote about Courtney Barnett in my book.

She was another person where I was like, oh, this person's just going to take over. They're going to be huge. This is going to be the Courtney Barnett era. And that hasn't happened. with her either. And it's nothing against either one of those artists. It just, it just goes to show.

Like, you can't really predict these things. If you don't know, like someone has a huge record. You know, like the, there was the, uh,

EP collection for Courtney Barnett. And then there was, uh, sometimes I sit and think and sometimes I just sit. Big record. A lot of people loved. And then since then, it's sort of been like,

oh, you're either not putting out music or the records you put out are sort of just okay. So, I don't know. It's hard to, maybe this is an overarching theme of this episode. You know, like, you're yuck in 2011. People like your record. And then 15 years later, you're writing Oscar winning scores.

Like, you don't know what's going to happen in your life. Well, speaking of not knowing what is going to happen in your life, let's talk about the new Jason Isbell record, Boxes in the Snow, which is out today, the day that this episode posts, March 7th. And this is a record that Isbel recorded by himself without his usual backing band, the 400 unit. It comes fairly soon after the last Isbell record, which was Weather Vains, that came out in 2023. And this record, I actually wrote about it for Up Rocks this week if you want to go check it out.

But this album is a divorce record. It's not officially billed that way, but listening to the record, hearing how it's presented, and just looking at the lyrics, it's pretty clearly Jason Isbell writing about his recent divorce from his wife of 11 years, Amanda Shire's. And if you're a Jason Isabel fan, I mean, this wasn't maybe a huge shock. I feel like he's been writing about marital discord

for a while now, the previous two records. I already mentioned weather vines, the record before that, reunions. There were definitely songs that seemed to be, drawing from that. There was the documentary that was on HBO timed with the release of weather veins, although it's more about

the making of the previous record, reunions, called Running With Our Eyes Closed, directed by Sam Jones, who of course did the Wilco documentary, I am trying to break your heart. Sam Jones, a great documentary filmmaker. Maybe you don't want to bring him in if you're having tension in your life. It seems like the Isaac Jotner

of music documentary. Yeah, I mean, he makes great movies. And that Isabel Dock, I think, is really good. Yeah, it was great. And although maybe for the people involved, it wasn't a great decision to be involved in it. I feel like the general impression is that Isabel and Shires don't come off great in that movie.

I would argue that that's actually a pretty brave decision on their part, like a lot of artists now. You know, if there's a documentary made about them, it's so stage managed. I mean, they're just so PR-driven. So to have a doc that is actually honest, I think it says a lot about the people involved that they're willing to present themselves that way.

But that stuff, it all informs how these records are heard, and it definitely informs this Isbell record, which, you know, he's playing by himself, just him on acoustic guitar. I mean, it's very sort of breakup album-coded, if I can put it that way. You know, the guy by himself pouring his heart out. And it's interesting because, you know,

Isabel, to me, is a very careful songwriter. He's someone that, I think, is a craftsman when it comes to writing songs. He clearly pours over every line. He makes records that I think are very carefully composed. Even his last record, Weathervanes, which was more of a band record. and I think one of the things I like about that record is that it's a little more loose in terms of where he allows the band to go. It's a little jamier, I guess, if you want to put it that way.

But he tends to be someone, I think, who really labors over the songs. In this record, I think you can tell that, like, he didn't do that as much. This record feels less polished than his previous records. And in some ways, I think that's a good thing because it gives a level of urgency to the record. There's, I think, hurt and anger on the record that's pretty nakedly expressed. That makes it, I think, a pretty interesting listen. I also think that these songs have more cliches in them than Isbel normally allows. There's a line in one song.

I have to look up my review. Maybe you remember what song it is. I'm thinking of a line. I don't know which one you're going to refer to, but I got one in my mind. He says, like, God said, hold my beer. Fuck, that's the lyric. That was like very like remind me of like the boy genius lyrics where I'm just like Jesus Christ, this is not going to age well.

Yeah, and I just feel like if he had waited a little bit, he would have cut that line. But this feels like a record. I think he actually recorded it at Electric Lady in New York. It sounds like it sounds like a record. He booked some studio time and he poured his heart out in these songs and then he put out the record. And again, there's an urgency to that that I think is admirable, especially for, again, an artist like Isabel, who I think is very careful in his songwriting. But at the same time, I think it just results in songs that have some, I think, awkward lyrics at times. I think

musically, it feels a little repetitive. Because I think Isabel actually is good at writing catchy melodic songs, even when he is in more of like a singer-songwriter Foki mode. And a lot of these songs, I think they sound a little alike to me. And it actually made me think about Zach Bryan listening to this record. Because Zach Bryan is someone who clearly has influenced by Jason Isbell.

And he has become just a huge star. You know, playing stadiums. He's like one of the biggest people and sort of country. music or Americana or whatever you want to call it. He's playing like the Big House at Michigan, which is like a 110,000 people go like are there, right? Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. And look, there's some Zach Bryan records that I like, but I think his weakness as a songwriter is that he writes a lot of songs that sound alike.

You know, he likes writing these acoustic broken heart ballads and musically they kind of sound the same. And lyrically, he repeats the same formula a lot. And I think it's really become glaring as his career has progressed that he seems to have a lane that's very narrow that he has trouble breaking out of. And in a way, I feel like this is Jason Isabel's version of that kind of record. And again, there's some good things about that, but I also think it's not him at his best. I think actually his last two records are really, really good. and this one feels like a step down to me.

I'm curious to hear what you think. I know you're not really up on Isbell. You're not as much of a fan maybe of his more recent work, although I know you go back to his early stuff, like with drive-by truckers and everything. Did this record register for you at all? I mean, this is maybe more emo, if you will, than some of his more recent stuff.

Yeah. And maybe like a dashboard confessional sense anyway. Yeah, I was actually more excited for this record than I had been for, I don't know, more basically any Jason Isbell album since I guess South Eastern when you know that that real pivot in his career where he like got sober and started becoming like eclipsing anything that was made by drive by truckers in terms of popularity and so um yeah the fact that it's like a raw divorce album because I do think that like Jason Isbell even with the albums before that I would

give a passing listen to it's very crafty very objectively good but they don't quite hit the way I want or need them to. And when I listen to this record, you know, you've talked about how just in the context of previous Jason Isbell records, there's more anger, there's more naked hurt. And for me, I just, I still feel like he's being kind of cagey with what he actually says. And when I was, when I was listening to this record, like, and this is clearly a me thing. Like, I'm not saying that like anyone should like see this as like a definitive state. But if you told me, like, it was just like a blind taste test, and you told me this was either the new Jason Isbell record, a new Zach Bryan album or like even like one of those post-cancellation Ryan Adams albums I've never listened to. I don't know if I'd be immediately able to tell the difference. I think what I really.

Oh, man, the Ryan Adams thing. I know. I'm going to call bullshit on that because if it was a Ryan Adams record, it would be him doing like a garage rock cover of, I don't know. Bruce Springsteen, Nebraska or something. Like, that's all Adams, I think, is doing at this point. Okay. Anyway, these are the ones I've not heard. But I think what this speaks to in terms of my taste, like, what I really wanted was heartbreaker, you know, like, I wanted something that was, like, even messier, even raw, or even, like, just putting stuff out there that might get him in trouble or, like,

possibly offend Amanda Shires. I don't know, like, you know, what her side of, I'm sure we're going to hear her side of it. I'm sure we're going to hear her side of this story soon. But I don't know. Maybe it's just that like at my age and I know it's not how this is supposed to work that I'm supposed to be more interested in Jason Isbell and music of this sort as I age. But yeah, I just was hoping for like the gut punch, the twist of the knife that didn't quite come through. But also that might just be the fact that I'm not in a position to really be bold over by breakup or divorce albums in the way.

I used to be like long before I actually was in relationships when I was like 22 or 23 years old if you said in the review like yeah this is a breakup concept I would immediately listen listen to it it did not matter what genre it was like that was how I vicariously lived through that stuff and I haven't thought like what are the good breakup albums of like the past 10 years you know well that's a I for whatever reason I'm blanking on them right now. I know that they're out there. I feel like there's like a weird millennial thing if I can be like if I can make generational proclamations. Please. Where it's almost bad form to present your music that way. I know that like the boy genius writers,

for instance, get really annoyed when people classify their music as sad girl music. You know, like people don't like to be pigeonholed. Like I make a breakup song or I make. a sad wallowing song in the same way that maybe artists of the past welcome that a little bit more. I don't know. That could be a totally off base. I think it makes sense because I know there's been like pushback on, you know, particularly like female artists, like if they sing about certain things, having it automatically be assumed to be about their personal life or just them pushing back on the term confessional. Whereas, you know, you look at like Heartbreaker and the ugly organ and like records of

that elk where it's like, yeah, this is clearly me writing about my life, you know? Yeah, and with Isabel, and I tried to be sensitive about this in my review because I think it is presumptuous of a critic or anybody to listen to a song and feel like, oh, this is like a journalistic accounting of the person's life, and I should take this as, you know, chapter and verse of what's going on with things that we don't know anything about as listeners. I mean, we're just, you know, rubbernecker's on the highway, really, with this kind of thing. But with Isabel, I mean, there is the fact that he has made his personal life a big part of his art. You know, him getting sober and making Southeastern and Amanda Shire's role in that

and him writing about their relationship. I mean, his biggest song on streaming platforms is if we were vampires, you know, which is this love song that he used to sing on stage with his wife. You know, so you can't totally separate the personal from the artistic with someone like Isbell, it's just impossible. All you can do is try to be sensitive about it and again have the humility to say, well, I'm just a person banging away on a keyboard. It's not like I have special knowledge of these people I'm writing about. But to go back to your thing, when you're talking about how you wanted this record to be like Heartbreaker, I think the strength of a record like Heartbreaker isn't necessarily that it's messy. It's that the songs are

really well written and that they're melodic songs and they stick in your mind. I mean, like Ryan Adams has made a lot of messy records that are not very good. You know, like, Heartbreaker, maybe the emotions in it are fraught, but like the songwriting is pretty disciplined, and the songs just work. And I actually think with Isbel, he wrote about his heartbreak in marriage more effectively on the two records before this than he does on this record. I think the weakness of this record is that the tunes just don't pop in quite the same way that they usually do on his records, in my estimation at least.

And, you know, to do the solo acoustic thing, that's a hard thing to do. I mean, you really have to have the songs for them to work in that format because it's so easy for songs just to sound like each other. If you don't have more going on arrangement-wise, you know, like Bruce Springsteen making Nebraska. It's like, how could he do that? Well, he had Atlantic City. You know, like that's a great song, you know, and he had, you know, used cars and he had just, you know, Johnny 99, like all the way down the line.

He had these amazing songs with incredible lyrics that could hold your attention. And that's what you need for a record like this. And I don't think Isbell delivered on this album. To me, it sounds like a record that he probably wrote quickly and he recorded quickly, which makes it interesting to me as someone who's interested in his career. but if I were to think about the great songs that he's written or the great albums he's made, I don't think that this will be among them. I think this will be a record that people go back to

and they'll look at as like an interesting side chapter to his career. Yeah, I do wonder if they'll like flesh it out later on, you know, like how Bruce Springsteen did with, you know, Nebraska. Like, well, they'll, like, do full band arrangements. Because just as someone who, like, plays guitar, like he's doing this thing where he's just like doing all these like little fills in between the chords and like the stuff that you do when you're just playing by yourself. And that kind of increases the similarity of things. And also like Nebraska does have kind of a diversity to it.

You know, like Johnny 99. You know, there's like a suicide influence there. It's not like it's his way of kind of making like a weird sort of New York punk album in a way. This one just, yeah, it just didn't quite, didn't quite like. land. You can tell these songs were like written in a hurry, which is great, but also it does sound like kind of clean. It doesn't also have that like four track, uh, kind of corroded sound to it as well. Yeah, I mean, Isabel ultimately, like he's not, I think a guy who is comfortable or maybe best suited to working quickly. Like, he's not like Zach Bryant. I, I even think

Zach Brian really isn't well suited to that anymore either. I think that he'd be better off taking 12 songs, polishing them up, maybe having a producer work on arrangements and really kind of present his songs in a way that makes them seem more dynamic. I think that's where he is weak, maybe at this point, where he's faltered. Whereas Isabel is someone who, I mean, he's worked with Dave Cobb. I mean, I feel like Isbell essentially has produced himself for a while now. He is someone, I think, who normally is, you know, he's working songs up with his band. He's really polishing up the lyrics on his own, and really honing them to a point where he can tell the story

that he's trying to tell in the most effective way. And I just feel like, these feel like rough drafts, not like the completed drafts that you normally get from him. Still a worthwhile record. If you're interested in Isbell,

definitely worth checking out. Well, I got to ask you this as like the real like DBT solo albums had, did Patterson Hood win this round? I don't know that. The Patterson record, you know, he, his record is more produced than normal. And he has, like, a lot of guest stars on it. I'm still coming around.

It's interesting because, like, with Patterson, I actually like him working more raw, you know, because he's not as polished as Jason. You know, he is someone who writes a lot of songs. And, I mean, Drive by Truckers is prolific. He has put a lot of solo records on his own. I'm not going to rule on that yet. I still need to listen to that Patterson Hood record a little bit more because that's a curveball for him too.

Both of those guys through curveballs recently, but they're curveballs for their specific sort of style, I guess I would say. Does Mike Cooley have any solo records? He has like a live record that he put out where he's playing songs by himself. And he, I'm trying to think if, I don't think he's put out an album of a,

originals, though, which he's not as prolific as those guys. Yeah. But I would love, I think that would be kind of cool. He's sort of like the guy that everyone who cares about these, you know, anyone who cares about drive-by truckers, I think everyone has a soft spot for Mike Cooley. Because he's just like the coolest dude. Yeah. In those circles.

And like, in his songs, he's not as prolific, but like his batting at, he has the highest batting average, I think, out of all those guys. Like, when he steps up to the plate, he's usually connecting and getting extra base hits, I think. So hopefully Daniel Blumberg and Mike Coley are listening to this episode as we give them advice on what to do next. We'll see. Let's get to our mailbag segment.

So we've booted this one a few times. So this question's like a little bit old, but I know Ian in particular you've been wanting to listen to, you wanted to answer this one. All right, so I'll read this one because I feel like you're going to have more of an answer for this than I will. So I'll tee you up here. Dear Steve and or Ian, by the way, this comes from Stinky Dave in Chicago. Stinky Dave, he sent us like several kind of snarky emails, which I think you'll tell from the tone of this email.

And we do have people out there like this that like to send snarky emails. Sometimes they're passive aggressive, putting us down a little bit. And it's like they're begging for us to read the email. And Stinky Dave, your day has finally come here. Long-time listener, multiple-time complainer. Setting the tone there. I've been surprised to hear what sounds like a general disinterest in Kendrick as of late. I think you're both on record as saying you weren't that interested in the beef,

with Ian saying that he felt not like us was like Nas just called Jay-Z Gay for three minutes in Ether. It also seemed like neither one of you were into GNX with Ian, that fucking guy. That's you. Yes. Stinky Dave calling you out. Talking about how it's like a Killer Mike solo record rather than a piece from the most important living rapper. To my mind, the dude has two albums that are firmly and the best albums ever canon. And the rest of his discography doesn't dip below really good.

Have I fallen into Stan territory? or are you two not giving the guy his flowers? Yours and Christ. Stinky Dave from Chicago. Stinky Dave, I wonder, is that something other people called him Stinky Dave or is he calling himself Stinky Dave? Is this like a George Costanza calling himself T-Bone situation? Or do you just stink, Dave?

And people call him stinky Dave. Here's a related email. This is from Christopher, who did not say where he's from. please say where you're from when you write us we like to feel the geographic reach of the show when we do the mailbag How do you guys define great rap

music? What excites you about it? I ask because usually when you guys bring up rap It's rarely with enthusiasm So here you go Ian, that fucking guy Tying you up Are we too mean to Kendrick?

Yeah, I mean First question and the second question What do we like about great man? Can I just say one thing quick before you go into your thing? Please. Is there a concern here that Kendrick isn't getting enough praise in the public? Like, are we worried that, like, Kendrick is, like, a genius on the fringes of society who's been ignored and he's going to die an unrespected genius? Like, is that the concern here?

Or, like, because I feel like there's a little bit of policing going on here, like, where, oh, A couple of people voiced some ambivalence about something Kendrick did. I need to write a letter. I need to call out people who are not just full-bore loving Kendrick Lamar. I mean, can we just be okay with this? That it's okay to voice criticism of him? And it doesn't mean that we think he's terrible, that it's okay to be critical of an artist who generally just gets across-the-board praise.

That's my only contribution to this. I'll cede the floor to you, Ian. I feel like these are your questions to answer. Yeah, I mean, in Stinky Dave's defense, it has been what, like seven or eight years since Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer Prize. Exactly. Where's the second Pulitzer Prize for Kendrick? Come on, people.

Give him his flowers. Yeah. Also, one of my least favorite phrase is giving a guy's flowers. That stuff is really past its sell by date. But, yeah, I mean, the, the, The thing is about Stinky Dave is that him and I kind of have very similar opinions, you know, more so than it might appear because I would also agree that he has two albums that are firmly within the best albums ever canon.

I'm more of a good kid, Mad City fan, but I think about to pimp a butterflies, perhaps like the definitive album of the 2010s. It's kind of like the messier fear of a black planet or stangonia to the previous ones of Quim and I, which is more co-conia. cohesive and when I like better. Look, damn, great album, but also one I cannot return to. It was just overplayed so much that it's going to take a long time for me to hear it with fresh years.

And I would also agree that like the rest of his discography doesn't dip below really good. I think GNX is like the rare rap album where I've said, yeah, it actually does sound better live. You know, the Super Bowl performance made it the songs pop when I was at, um, our union's picket line. There were a lot of GNX songs being played, and they sounded great on boomboxes and being played loud and crowd. So, yeah, it might not be an album I listen to in my car,

but it's one I can appreciate. That being said, I think that the Super Bowl discourse did really reinforce the fact that Kendrick has stands, but they function in a very, very different way than those of, like, say, Taylor Swift or whatever. because like the Kendrick stands, they will annoy you on Twitter in the kind of way that Stinky Dave does where they just like get mad that you're not appreciating them enough, but like they won't make you go private on Twitter or like they won't like docks you or they'll just like bring up like genius annotations and like, you know, crunch numbers about how Kendrick in jams more syllable rhyming than any other rapper except for maybe Eminem.

And yeah, GNX is probably better than 99% of the rap that I heard in 2024. But I'm also feeling like that my disappointment about that record is because I loved his previous record so much. Like I'm comparing GNX to say, damn, not like Boss Man Delo or, you know, Osama's son or whatever. So I guess it's just a kind of old man thing where I am holding Kendrick. It's like, yeah, I can't enjoy the Interpol record because I really want to turn on the bright lights. And so, you know, to the next question, and I'd love to hear like Steve's answer as well, because I do feel like, you know, of the two of us, I do talk more about rap. But what, how do you guys define great rap music? What excite you about it?

I mean, that's kind of ask me, like, how I define great rock music or like great music from any genre. You know, sometimes I want the most ignorant stuff possible. Sometimes I like pretty music. sometimes I like the avant-garde stuff that's pushing the, you know, pushing boundaries and freaking out the squares. And oftentimes I just like stuff that I remind, that reminds me of music I liked as a teen. And, you know, as far as, like, new stuff, though, this is something I've thought about a lot because it was not that long ago where I was, like, primarily reviewing rap albums for

Pitchfork. I mean, it was probably more like 2010-2012, which, you know, now is a new long time ago. But, yeah, and I find, I'm a little bit of it. disappointed that I can't, you know, grasp on to a lot of the new stuff I'm hearing because I feel like there's kind of two separate lanes. Like one, it's like the post-Earl sweatshirt stuff like Mike and Navy Blue. I find it kind of too insular and kind of dreary. It's like Doom without the fun. But I do really like Billy Woods because he does a lot of that stuff with a more fiery delivery. And then there's the stuff that I should like, like the post whole lot of red.

music for Playboy Cardi. Because when I heard that album, it really, like, just made me hear music with fresh years. I'm like, I know this is not the sort of stuff I should be into, but it's super interesting. But so much of the stuff I try to listen to, like, whether you call it, like, you know, tunnel, like, crunk, rage rap, like, the stuff that does track with my preferences, where it just sounds great at the gym, I just have trouble getting into that on an album long. level because like i've tried with osama son i've tried with boss man dilo and like these albums are always like 22 songs and 40 minutes and it takes about five of them for me to feel like this is

never going to end which i actually felt about a whole lot of red as well and i think that this isn't necessarily um i don't know like a negative thing i feel like rap is supposed to be in tune with what like 16 or 18 year olds want and should be completely incomprehensible to people like me. I really think that's the thing. And the fact that I'm not feeling this stuff right now is a sign that rap is doing things well. Because like, what do you want?

Do you want me to be like 45 years old and like, you know, talking about like Young Lean and Skywater? And, but I have wondered, you know, kind of to address the elephant in the room with like pitchfork really leaning into this stuff. Is this what like for a new wave of like indie listeners? Is this like animal collective or deer hoof? is this where the conversation is heading?

I don't know. But I've kind of come to peace with the fact that when it comes to rap, I'll probably just end up listening to all the first generation Wutang solo albums for the rest of my life. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're having two different conversations here because I'm just thinking about when we've talked about rap acts on this show in recent months. And the only things I could really think of are Kendrick Lamar,

his last record in the Super Bowl halftime show, and Dochi, who was on all these award shows and all these best of the year list and both of those artists operate in the mainstream music realm like they are artists that are on the Super Bowl halftime show that are on the Grammys that populate for lack of a better term is sort of like the crossover rap acts that traditionally have dominated music criticism discourse

at least like during our careers like if you look at the 2000s 2010s like the biggest artist came from that world, whether again you're talking about Jay-Z or you're talking about Kanye West or you're talking about Drake, you're talking about like all the odd future people. I mean, there's numerous examples. And it feels like that has dried up a bit in the last four or five years. But Kendrick and Dochi are in that camp now. And I feel like the criticisms that we've had or maybe I'll speak for myself that I've had are pretty specific. to those particular artists. You know, Kendrick Lamar,

being an artist where I don't want to just talk about his followers, because I think that that is, that's a distraction. It's not really fair to Kendrick. I mean, I guess I'm in the same camp as you where his post to Pimp a Butterfly stuff has just been less compelling to me musically. I mean, like, Mr. Morrell,

the Big Steppers was a record that, like, I respect it as a gesture, but like, as a listening experience. I didn't really enjoy it. I have to be honest, I haven't dug deep into GNX just because it came out at the end of the year and I was checked out by then.

I was on vacation and I didn't hear that record and I haven't really dug in deep, so I'm not going to offer an opinion on that. As far as hip-hop in general, I'm checked out on that too. In terms of like the underground stuff or the things that like pitchfork is covering where it'll be like some like internet-brained rapper

with like 3,000, an R's in their name. You know, like, I have no idea who this is, and I'm not particularly interested in it. So, like, I'm not going to give an opinion on, like, whether I like it or not, because it's irrelevant and it's not informed. I will say that I think hip-hop for me in general, it's a lot like what metal became in the last 10 to 15 years where it just seems like when metal bands come out, it's made for people who love metal obsessively and maybe only listen to metal.

and that music has its place and obviously the audience loves it but like for me I came up in a time where there were metal bands that were appealing to like a wide group of people and I think there is a different dynamic involved when you're speaking to the aficionados primarily and there's a lot of good things that can happen with that but I also think there's a lot of self-indulgent things that happen when you are only concerned with people who are obsessed with the genre. And I feel like with rap music, in my career as a critic, has moved more in that direction over the years. And again, if you're into that, God bless, and I'll read what you have to say about it, and you're the expert. And I'm not going to weigh in because my opinion doesn't

mean anything there. But it just makes it less encouraging to me, who's maybe more of a layperson, to get involved, because it just seems less interesting. And it just seems like you're talking to people who already know all the in jokes, who already know all the maneuvers, and it's great for them, and for everybody else, it's like you wandered into a party where you feel like you're not invited.

So I guess that would be sort of my general comment there. I don't know if any of that makes sense to you. It absolutely makes sense. I mean, it's just like, do you really want, you know, do you as a reader or us as people, people really want to like go there and like try to you know tap into this thing which is designed to keep people like us out you know we can appreciate it it can say that you know the culture has moved on but like um i i i only like something like dochi or kendrick

camar are not a part of that no not at all that's that's something different because like dochi being a major label artist who is clearly pitched toward the mainstream more of a pop audience than like a pure rap audience to me that's a different issue than something that is more niche, which may not necessarily be a niche because there's a lot of people that listen to it, but is more sort of cater to a specific audience than like these general interest artists

that we've talked about on the show, which I don't feel like is a moratorium on the genre overall. I think you can say something critical of an artist without it meaning something broadly about the genre itself. Totally. And if you are an Indycast listener who is up on this stuff, I am always looking for the new version of Flocka Valley. If there is an album that does that, please send it my way. We've now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so I mentioned this album a few weeks ago because it came out during a really popping week. But I wanted to give more attention to it. It's a Bath new album called Gut. I spent more time with it over the past couple weeks, and it might be maybe my favorite album of the year thus far, at least a contender for it. You want to talk about like 2011 guys. Bath started out in 2010 with an album called Cerulium, which was kind of like a chill-wavy

version of what like Flying Lotus and all those beatmakers in L.A. were doing and then kind of shifted to like Juju-Sty-Siles songs about like body horror and sexuality. and then he made, I think his most famous song was like the dating, the dad dating simulator. That was like 2018 or whatever. So this new album is a really interesting pivot because it's inspired in his words by Gillo Band and Daughters and Proto Martyr. But more often than that sounds kind of like passion pit. I say that as like a very positive thing. And the songs are extremely explicit about his sex life in a way that's more endearing than it is cringe.

putting it all out there, which I think is really awesome compared to a lot of albums that get discussed, like, you know, like Caroline Polichick or like twigs that like use like the club and sex and kind of like scare quotes, artsy sort of thing. There's no projection whatsoever that can be done here. I mean, uh, Will Wisenfield, the guy behind that's, he is writing really catchy, really kind of abrasive, edgier songs about, uh, kind of cruising and just going to clubs and just living his life. And there's really not much else like it right now. It is a very stunning record.

So Bath's gut, that's my recommendation this week. Man, that was like a roller coaster of emotion, that description. There were parts where I was like, I'm on board. The other parts where I'm like, I don't know about this, man. But I'll definitely check it out. That sounds pretty interesting. I want to talk about a band from Wales called The Tubbs. This is a band that I've liked for a while now.

They put on a record in 2022, I want to say. I think it was 2022 called Dead Meat that I liked a lot. You might know a couple of members of this band that used to play in a group called Joanna Grusome that had some love in indie rock circles. But this is a band that I've gotten into more, I'd have to say, than Joanna Grusome. And they're really hitting my sweet spot with this mix of sound.

where they take the form of a punk band, but there's a lot of British folk influence in what they're doing, particularly in the vocals of the lead singer Owen Williams, who has like a Richard Thompson-sounding singing style, also reminiscent of like Bob Mould after he left Husker Do and started making these like Richard Thompson-inspired solo records, and particular like Workbook and Black Sheets of Rain, like those early Bob Mold sort of in the gap between,

Hussker-Doo and Sugar. If that's your sweet spot with Bob Bold, you will definitely like the Tubbs. Anyway, this new album, it's called Cotton Grown, and it is definitely in the vein of dead meat. All the songs are about three minutes long, very punchy, very cool guitar riffs. There's usually some sort of melancholy lyric going on. It's a really good combination of, again, like a sort of pub band that plays punk rock with these really sensitive singer-songwritory type lyrics without it making it ever sound like a sensitive singer-songwritery type record. Really good stuff, really good band. Again, they're called The Tubbs.

The album, which by the way, I've not said the title of yet, it's called Cotton Crown. Really good record. Go check it out. I like it. Yeah, I recommended Baths. Steve recommended the Tubbs. Get it straight. That's true.

through a very clean recommendation corner. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indicast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter.

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