Indiecast - New Music From Ethel Cain + Japanese Breakfast, Plus: Is Bonnaroo Cooked?

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Steven and Ian begin with a quick Sportscast about their respective favorite NFL teams — the Packers and the Eagles — facing off in the playoffs in the weekend (3:23). They also review the (unlikeable) programs left in the College Football Playoffs (7:56). From there, they discuss the recent album announcement by Japanese Breakfast and whether they like her new single (14:29). They also look at the lineup for this year's Bonnaroo and whether it confirms Steven's suspicions about festivals being in a downturn (25:22). Then they review the latest release by Ethel Cain, Perverts, and whether it is deliberately aimed at alienating her more pop-minded fans (34:10).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the "Ozark Mountain emo" band Pomfret while Steven recommends the new solo record by Geese singer Cameron Winter (50:17).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 221 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On the show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about a new album announcement from Japanese Breakfast, a new festival lineup announcement for Bonaroo and the latest album, or I guess EP, it's 90 minutes long by Ethel Cain. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He's doing okay down there in Southern California. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? Yeah, we're going with sincerity posting to start out this week of Indycast. I feel like San Diego is, is fine, largely unaffected. You know, there's just this thing where San Diego just so often tends to be insulated from a lot of the awful catastrophic things that are happening like an hour or two up north. my heart goes out to like every single person I know who lives in the L.A. area.

I've lived in some of the places that have needed to evacuate. And, you know, there's not much I can do except just like semi-good wishes and prayers and vibes. And yeah, because it's, it's fucking apocalyptic down here. Yeah. Yeah, this is we, I wanted to start the episode by shouting out all of our listeners and, friends and compatriots who live in Southern California. I mean, the footage has just been horrifying to witness. I've reached out to people that I know in the area,

you know, and they're talking about evacuating their homes. I just saw a post from someone I know who lost their home in a fire. And look, the important thing is that people are safe and they will be able to rebuild their lives and their lives and their possessions. But that is a devastating loss. I mean, you can't minimize the loss of a home of all of your personal belongings, photos, records, books, things you've collected over the years.

It's really sad. And if you're really in the thick of it, you're probably not listening to this episode right now. But, you know, if you just live in Southern California, if you're in these areas, just know that we're thinking of you. And we're so sorry. You know, I'm texting friends and I'm saying, I'm sorry. It seems like such an empty thing to say.

Like, what do you say to someone who has lost their home or might lose their home? You wish that there was something more profound or helpful. But hopefully, just knowing that we're thinking of all of you. And if you're a religious person, if you're praying, we're all behind you. and, you know, this is a temporary thing that's happening, and you'll be, I think you'll be okay in the long run, but I know those words probably ring hollow right now. So we're going to do a show.

We're going to do what we do. We're going to talk about, I guess we're going to talk about music. We're going to talk about sports first, because that's what we do on the show at the beginning. We've got to do sports cast because we talked about the possibility of this last week, and now it has come to pass that in the NFL playoffs, Round one, my team versus your team, Ian. Yes.

Packers versus Eagles. And I'm expecting this to go as well for me as the fantasy drafts have gone. You won last time. Well, I won the latest one, barely won. But I'm just saying historically has not gone well for me. Yeah. I mean, Packers have like a mixed history in Philly with the playoffs. There's, of course, fourth and 26th, the worst play of my life.

Fred X. Totally shredding us. But the year that we won the Super Bowl, the last year that we won with Aaron Rogers, our Super Bowl run began on the road in Philly. So there is that history there, if it really matters. All I know is that Jordan Love screwed up his elbow last week in a horrible game against the Bears, which we lost.

I was very confident last week that we were going to win the game. And of course we lose. Jordan Love, his elbows hurt, and the team isn't letting the media watch him practice. So you know that's a great sign right there. And then our other quarterback, Malik Willis, he screwed up his hand, and he's a little iffy going into the game. So even our backup, I don't know what the status of him is. So I don't know. Is Jalen Hertz cleared yet on the concussion protocol?

Has that been settled? According to ESPN, he looks, quote, sharp. So, yeah, I mean, he is like one hit away from his brain turning into consistency of like rice pudding and us having to rely on. I mean, can you imagine like Kenny Pickett versus Malik Willis. Like I looked at the Packers depth chart and there is no third quarterback. Now, mind you, the last time the Eagles did get to the Super Bowl, they did it against a 49ers team that was, I think quite literally putting Christian McCaffrey under center and having to run the triple option. because all their, like, Brock Purdy was hurt and the backup was hurt. So I feel pretty good about this game because I do not trust the Nixiriani Eagles

unless it's against the banged-up team that has a record that doesn't reflect their talent. Because they also lost one of their best receivers to an ACL tear last week. Like the Packers are not coming in with a lot of heat. Do I trust the Eagles to stop the Baker-Mayfield juggernaut? Absolutely not. what I do hope for is that, well, what I see happening is that they're just going to, like, give Sequan Barkley the ball 45 times. And then even if they win A.J. Brown and DeVantz Smith, they're going to complain about not getting the ball enough. And then it'll just, like, end in tragedy.

But, yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to root for the Eagles when I do want to see the Lions win. So, yeah. I think the Lions are going all the way. They looked amazing against the Vikings. I know that they are playing scrubs on defense. but whoever they put in, they're able to scheme them up and dapp them up and give them the comment. I don't know what they're doing there. I will say, though, that I do not trust for that shit

to work against Pat Mahomes, where it will absolutely work against Stampton. Well, yeah, I don't know if they're going to... When I say go all the way, I mean, I think they're going to get to the Super Bowl. I don't know if they're going to win. Because it does feel like... I feel like the NFC has...

I think it's a stronger field, but I think the top teams are in. the AFC. Yes. So I think, yeah. So, like, if you look at like one through seven in the NFC, I think it's stronger than one through seven in the AFC, but like I would rather take the Chiefs, Ravens or Bills, over any NFC team.

So we'll see what happens. I would like to see Lamar get over the hump. Oh, absolutely. Him or Josh Allen. Right. Exactly. Either one of those guys would be, but you, yeah. You know it's not happening.

Yeah, the Chiefs at home, I mean, how are you going to bet against them? I don't know. It feels like it's going to be Chiefs, again, even though on paper, it absolutely should not when you have Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen looking like, I don't know what, Superman out there, just incredible quarterback play. That's going to be an amazing game. Assuming they both win in the first round, it's going to be Ravens Bills second round, which to me might as well be the Super Bowl.

That just seems like just a kick-ass game. We got to talk about college football playoff too here quick. And you were right about your Georgia Bulldogs. I was feeling confident about the Packers and I was wrong. You were feeling pessimistic about the Bulldogs. And they lost Handily, really, against Notre Dame. Yeah, I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous for a fan base that has won two national championships, like within the past decade.

But I still think that UGA fans, and like myself included, like, there is a sense of fatalism where you just know when they're going to lose. And it's almost entirely vibes-based. It happens every time they play Alabama where I'm like, they're not going to win this game. Notre Dame vibes just felt off. You know, Gunner Stockton played pretty well all things considered. And I do think this team would have beaten Penn State. But everything just about that game just felt wrong, you know,

because the team's been off all year. It's sort of like the Eagles last year where it's like they have the record to get in and maybe they could turn around, but there's just something that is not clicking. They're not dominating. But now we have the pleasure, you know, quote unquote, of seeing like four of like the most loathsome fan bases make it to the end of the road. Right. I mean, like Ohio State's fun to watch because they just have, they have like a better. wide receiver course than like probably you know there's at least three NFL teams that would trade right now for the guys they're putting out on the field yeah I mean so but otherwise I mean it's like

not like Notre Dame Texas Penn State like are you watching these teams and thinking oh yeah this is like championship caliber football right here yeah I'm just wondering with the Ohio State receivers you think they would play as well for a different team because of the sticker situation because they're getting the stickers at Ohio State. I think that explains their great play. If they were at Michigan or they were at, you know, wherever, maybe they don't play as well. I'm wondering, too, like, do you get, like, extra stickers for winning in the playoffs?

I think you do. Like, that's not even me being, like, ironic. I think, like, for bigger games and bigger plays, you do get, like, a higher level of sticker. You get, like, the coffee ones. Or maybe it's, like, a larger sticker. Or maybe, you know, you get to pick the sticker. I don't know if there's, like, animal stickers. that you can put on instead of the, are they stars?

I think they're stars, right? Well, I gotta ask you this, because, like, I'm wondering if you're like you're yay or nay on, like, putting guitars on a, putting sticker on a guitar, like, the same sort of deal, like, you come up with, like, a sick-ass riff, you get a sticker on your guitar and you end up looking like the guy, like, Billy Joe Armstrong or whatever. Yeah, that's true. I'm anti-sticker on guitars, just for the record. Well, not for, like, playing a good solo.

If you just put cool stickers on. Because you like them. That's a different story. So the day that we record Thursday, tonight it's Penn State and Notre Dame. So by the time this episode is out, one of those teams is going to be in the national championship game. And as you said, you got Notre Dame, the most self-righteous college program of all time. And then you have Penn State, which was the second most self-righteous college program of all time until, you know, We all know what happened.

We don't need to get into that. Is Texas by default the most likable team here? Because you got McConaughey in the mix. I mean, Texas isn't particularly likable, but I feel like in this field they are, and they're probably going to lose. I would imagine Ohio State's going to win it all. Yeah.

Ohio State, if they don't do what I do sometimes when I'm playing EA college football 25 and I'm getting kind of like bored and I play two games in a row and I'm like throwing into triple coverage or just like trying these like double reverses that like never ever work in any iteration of the game. There's no way they should lose. But they have lost two games this year just playing the dumbest brand of football like against Oregon and Michigan. Yeah, I mean, Penn State, like I got to give a shout to them. Like my brother went to Penn State. I had some great times at Penn State when I was in high school. I'm in a fantasy football league with 10 other guys from Penn State who are my brothers,

returning brothers. They pick Sequoan Barclay way too early every year, except this year it worked. It's Sequan Berkeley, isn't it? Sequan Barclay. You're saying Sequan. Yeah. Oh, gosh, like me doing the mispronunciation flub on an Eagles player who went to Penn State. Like this is not like some of Steve's flubs.

But it'd be like me saying Jordane Love or something. I mean, what's going on here? Yeah, but, you know, with Penn State, like, they're, I feel like they don't, most of the people I know went to Penn State, like they know better than to be entitled because every single time they've faced a team of equal or greater strength, like a Michigan or Ohio State. Like, when the games actually matter, they lose. You know, they beat SMU and Boise State, which is like a slightly rugged couple of weeks in the ACC. and Notre Dame, I guess, kind of counts with that as well. I don't like, they know they're the third best team in the big 10 at best. So even beyond like the whole Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky thing, like there's a real little brother aspect to this school.

They've not been, you know, a top five team in like since the mid-90s. So if they get to the championship, cool. If they win, fine. I mean, Baylor won a national championship. basketball and their previous coach covered up a fucking murder. So I don't know. I feel like the Pense thing is worse. I think that's the worst scandal in college history.

It's the worst. It's the worst. The Baylor one is the most unbelievable. Yeah. Like they had a guy on the team kill another guy on the team and the coach covered it up. Yeah, that guy, like they tried to make it like drug related. But the fact that we even have to argue about this is just showing you how fucked up

the state of collegiate sports are, though. All right, well, enough sports cast. Let's get out of there. It got a little dirty there at the end. Let's start talking about some indie rock here on Indycast. There is a big new album announcement this week from one of the big stars in the indie rock world. I'm talking about Japanese breakfast, also known as Michelle Zoner. She put out an announcement this week that she will be putting out her next record on March 21st.

and it's called for melancholy brunettes and sad women. And sad women are in parentheses. She put out a single this week called Orlando in Love. I should mention that this record is produced by Blake Mills, who is a very well-respected guitar player producer. He's probably best known in indie rock world for doing the Alabama Shakes record, sound in color. But he's done other things as well.

Really good producer. That actually makes me even more excited about this record. I'm a Japanese breakfast fan, but I think he's a really good producer, and it makes sense for him to be paired with Michelle. I actually like this single. I thought it was pretty good. I think I like it more than you do. I'm curious to hear your thoughts here in a second.

I'm wondering if this single is representative of the album as a whole. Again, it's called Orlando in Love. And I'm reading here from the Rolling Stone article announcing the album. It says that this song is inspired by Renaissance poet, Mateo Maria Biodaro. I know I've butchered that one. And also, it's based on a composition by that poet called Orlando in a Marato, an unfinished epic containing 68 and a half contos, as well as writer John Cheever's riff on the poem.

So really highfalutin stuff here with this song. And it is this, I guess you could call it orchestral pop. There's a very lovely string arrangement on the song. I'm wondering if maybe the record on the whole has more of an orchestral bent or if this is a curveball. I have to say that I kind of miss the rock band version of Japanese breakfast. She's been moving away from that. I think Jubilee still has.

had a lot of those elements, but you could see her moving more in an indie pop direction with that record. This album, curious to see if it's even more going away from that. So I'm curious about your thoughts on this record, Ian. Should we start with the album title, though? Rolling Stone, when they announced this record, they said, this is the headline, Japanese Breakfast, have a new album on the way, and the title is so damn good. That was all caps, right? I think they did all caps on that, right? I think all their headlines are still caps. Are all caps. I think that's how it goes.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Rolling Stone on this one. I don't think this is a good album title. I'm not the only person to make this observation. I think it's like a pretty obvious observation to make. It sounds like something that Taylor Swift would have workshoped and rejected. You know, there's sort of like a cleverness to it, a little bit of like melodrama to it, but also like a little cutesy and maybe faux literary. I don't know.

It's like trying a little too hard for me. Do you love this album title? Well, before I saw the actual album title, I think there was rumors or chatter going around that it was going to be called Melancholia, which is a way worse album title in my mind because that's like not even really trying. That's like a poochy-ass album title

for something of this nature. Parentheticals and album titles, mean, you know, like what's the story, you know, and sad women? You know, maybe that could, that would be actually kind of, that's a fire album title. I mean, the album title is a lyric in the first, you know, in the lead single, which as far as my opinion, I do agree that I miss the rock band Japanese breakfast. I miss Little Big League, her pre-Japanese breakfast band. and I am on the record saying Psychopopop is by far my favorite album of hers.

This, you know, if we're talking about like pretentious album titles that are like kind of self-aware, but not really. I mean, you can go back beyond Taylor Swift to Smashing Pumpkins because, you know, Machina and the Machines of God. This song, like, made me think of like what would happen if melancholy was led off by Cupid DeLock. Like, that's the song that this reminds me of the most, which, which, you know, which, you know, is like a two-minute interlude featuring harp. This feels too short and slight to be. This feels like one of those like teaser lead singles as opposed to like the big comeback that B-Sweet was.

Yeah, I don't love it. I think that it, you kind of need like a Billy Corgan or a Kate Bush to really sell something like this. And even with all like the flourishes, something about it feels a little non-committal and timid and I don't know just like throwing lines together um you know I I was just curious about like how this out like a if a Japanese breakfast album was going to come out uh you know because of all of her other side hustles I don't want to say side hustle I you could argue that uh crying in Hmart was like more popular relatively speaking than uh Japanese breakfast but oh totally I think that's definitely true

Yeah, because like, you know, I think Crying and Hmart reached an audience where it's like, wait, she's in a band too. Right. Yeah, it reached a, and I say this with all due respect, kind of like a basic Barnes & Noble going book audience that Jubilee did not reach yet. Yeah, there's like the Oprah book. I don't know if it was literally Oprah Book Club, but it was that kind of book. Yeah, it's like forever at forever and ever and ever, ever going to be in the display at Barnes and Noble when you first walk into the store. I do wonder though, like we talked on last week's episode about the prediction of whether, you know, the class of 2021 or like, you know, your boy geniuses, your, and so forth, whether that, you know, that wave of musicians is on its way out. And I'm wondering if like this is kind of a canary in the coal mine.

I don't think that she has the same sort of, for lack of a better term, insane fan base or the same parisocial relationship with her. her fans, but I do wonder if this is going to be indicative of how other artists of that realm might be received. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, she's an interesting case because, you know, in a way she is more popular than almost any indie rock person you could mention as an author. I mean, that was a big book. It's being turned into a film. I'm sure the book will have another wave when that movie comes out, especially if it ends up being good. But as a musician or as an a band or whatever you want to call Japanese breakfast. I mean, she doesn't, she's not as big as

a Mitzky or Phoebe Bridgers or a Lucy Dacus like the big, big stars of the 2010s. And, or the 2010s in the 2020s. I could be wrong here, but I feel like the reception for Jubilee was positive, but it wasn't overwhelming. I feel like people like the record, but it wasn't necessarily thought of as the album of the year.

Am I wrong on that? I don't think so. I mean, I think that that was a record where it was like, yeah, it's a big deal and it's going to be on the year end list. But like I don't think it had, I think it when you like talk to people in the wild, it's sort of like I kind of wish I liked it more. It's like I like Michelle. I like Japanese breakfast. I like what they're about. But like, I just, I don't think it had that. I just don't think it had that consensus classic kind of thing going on with it. It was very, it was, you know, like kind of a, it was a foregone conclusion that it would be well received and that it was going to be positively received. And this is why I don't think there's going to be a backlash at all. Like, I don't think you can backlash this artist, right? It might not hit that hard this record when it comes out. And maybe I could be completely wrong about this based on the record.

but you're not going to see what you saw with like Lord, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, again, I'm curious how representative this song is of the record. Is this going to be a further refinement of her sound in the way Jubilee was? Or is this a curveball and are there more rock band type moments on the record? Because I do think that the core of her fan base, I don't think it's an unusual opinion to prefer the early records. I think a lot of people like her, you know, what is it, like the first two or three albums, maybe more than the records she's been doing lately.

So, and the fact that she's working with Blake Mills, it leads me to believe that it's probably more like the single, the rest of the record. It's got to be very tasteful. Yeah, so, and I'm not sure if that's like a great direction for her. Like, I don't think she's, I don't think people are going to be like hating this record. My guess, and this is such a bullshit. guess because we haven't heard this record yet. But we're just doing blind prognostication here.

But I would guess that this album could potentially be like a mid-seven type album, mid-to-upper-seven, which is that a backlash? No, but it's like a little underwhelming. You know, I wonder if that's the direction we're moving in. But again, blind prognostication here. We don't know. We're basing it on the single, which I like more than you, but it's not quite what I want from her. I think I would have liked her to do a Will Yip record more than a Blake Mills record,

even though I like Blake Mills as a producer and as a musician, but like a throwback more to her earlier sound. I think that would be something I'd be more excited about. And maybe this record is that? Well, I guess that we'll find out. I just want to say, if we're going to talk about naming things, I got to give a shout out to my man Dan Behar, who put out an announcement this week that there's going to be a,

another destroyer record coming out called Dan's Boogie. And the first single is called Bologna. So tip your cat to Dan Bajah. Yeah. Tip the cap to Dan Behar. He knows how to name things. Bologna as a song and Dan's Boogie as the album. Let's move on here to our next topic.

I want to talk to you, Ian, about Bonaroo. Because they announced their lineup this week. And we were talking last week about, you know, our predictions for 2025. And one thing that I mentioned was just talking about festivals. And festival business may be taking a step back or facing some sort of economic reckoning. Because it seems like the lineups for these festivals, just keep getting progressively worse and, like, more nonsensical. And like, just more sort of. homogenous across the board.

And so I feel like this is a story that we're going to need boots on the ground journalist covering all year round. And this is the latest installment in that story. I'm just going to look at the poster here. Just read some of the headliners here. So it's a four-day festival. On Thursday, the headliners are Luke Combs, Dom Dala, who I assume is some chicken shit DJ or something.

Right? Australian to boot. Any name I don't recognize, I assume, is a chicken shit DJ. Sammy Virgie, no idea. I don't know who that is. Marcus King, I know who that is. He's like a jammy, kind of bluesy guitar player. Green Velvet, no idea.

Two Hollis, no idea. Insane clown posse. I know who they are. Friday, you got to have the creator, John Summit. Again, a chicken shit DJ. Correct. Glass animals, the last act on the top line. Tipper.

No idea. Goose. I thought that's a Tipper gore. No, it's Tipper. Then Goose. Goose, of course, jam band Mavens. Red Clay Strays, they're a country rock band. I know them.

They're a pretty good band. Rainbow Kitten Surprise. I mean, come on. That just screams chicken shit DJ. And Megadeth. Yeah. So the last act on the second line so far is a curveball to like dirtbag. 90s culture.

I love it. Rainbow kitten surprise, though, I will check you on that. They're kind of like an alt rock sort of band, like one of those kind of invisibly popular streaming slop sort of bands. Ah, okay. So my ignorant dismissal was off base, apparently. I apologize for that. I should mention, too, that King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard

is doing a residency at Bonaroo. So apparently they're playing throughout the weekend. They're not listed individually on the posters, but they're in the upper right-hand corner in a little bubble. So, of course, very jambandy, along with Goose. Maybe there'll be a Goose King Gizzard standoff. That'd be awesome. Saturday, Olivia Rodriguez, Avrilavine, Justice, Nelly, Glowrilla, Mount Joy, R.L. Grime, Bidabudiby, Tyler, and Jesse Murph. I don't know who Jesse Murth.

I don't know who Jesse Murth is. Don't know that. And then finally on the last day you have Hozier, Vampire Weekend, Queens of the Stone Age. Lizzie? L.S. Z? Maybe. L. Z? No idea. Fuck, man. Chicken shit DJ, I'm guessing. Remy Wolf, Ray, Roble Otis. Okay, Royal Otis. Like, we got... A royal Otis.

Yeah, they're a very, very popular Australian rock band. And I've, like, I've recommended, like, us kind of going deep on bands like this. because like Royal Otis and like the chats, they're these, kind of like a meal in the sniffers. They're kind of these like real punk rock Australian bands that get super duper popular. And, you know,

play on the second line of festival posters such as this one. And then you have dispatch, role model, and Barry can't swim. So I don't know what to say about this. I mean, Bonnero used to be a jam band festival. you still have some remnants of the jam band history there, of course, like with Goose and King Gizzard

especially as you move down the poster. I guess MJ Lenderman, I see he's playing the festival. He's on the fourth line. Yeah, I noticed that. He is up, yeah, below slightly stupid, a San Diego institution and whoever flip turn is. I mean, I know JPEG mafia is.

Yeah, right. But that's the best way to see M.J. I think opening for slightly stupid. I think that's really what you want to do. You know, if he did open for slightly stupid, more people at my work would probably know who he is. That's true. Because aren't they like a sublime rip-off? I don't know if they're a sublime rip-off, but they're like kind of in the same sort of, the same sort of realm.

They're all like in the same way that like every time I pass by the House of Blues in Hollywood, social distortion was playing. every time you go every time you drive by like the casinos here in san diego slightly stupid is playing okay well yeah i'm i'm gonna respect southern california and not make any more slightly stupid jokes yeah i think they're more kind of like p o d than uh sublime okay okay um so yeah i don't know this i think this is playing into the theory that these festival lineups are just growing and incoherence. I mean, I can kind of see what they're doing.

It seems like they're making like, okay, Saturday night's a pop night. That's Avril Levine and Olivia Rodriguez and he got Nelly on there. Sunday is maybe more of like a middle of the road like indie rock night or alt rock night. You know, Hozier, Vampire Weekend, Queens of Stone Age. Friday, I guess maybe is like the younger person night?

Tyler, the creator, glass animals. I think Megaday you got Dave Mustaine. You were on there. I'm just imagining Dave Mustaine watching

glass animals and goose what his reaction would be. I'm just imagining him in the sweating bullets video. I was not say

sweating bullets. With that facial expression watching glass animals from the side of the stage with his arms crossed. That's my comedy. I don't know.

I don't know what to make of this. It just seems like you threw a bunch of names in a hat and you just emptied it onto a piece of paper and you're like, okay, this is the lineup. Whatever order it fell into, that's what Bonaroo is going to be this year. Yeah, I'm shocked you didn't put more respect on the name of Remy Wolf's insanely fired 1970s pool party super jam. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Remi Wolf's getting a lot of run on this one. But I think that I don't feel any sort of like emotional investment in this festival. I've never been, never really wanted to go.

Like, Coachella is the only one I could ever do because, like, there's not as much camping. But, and I need to shower at the end of the night. Shout to Hot Mulligan, the only, like, remotely emo band on here. But, yeah, I think that, like, this is in the same way, like, Coachella is always going to be a Southern California, kind of maybe sort of kind of electronic leaning influencer festival. Bonnaroo, I think, maintains enough shape as a jam band adjacent festival. And it's, I just love all the streaming slop in here. Like, I actually kind of like the fact that I don't recognize a lot of the bands on here.

Because it's not a resolution of mine. But I think that, like, we're almost being neglectful or, you know, critical malpractice to not know who the streaming the streaming slop is. Like, I feel like, yeah, maybe we should listen to Wallows, you know? Maybe we should be listening to Mount Joy, just to see what it's like. That can be a project this year. Maybe we should have a segment on the show where we're like, the streaming slop artists of the week.

And we just give someone to listen. We're like, okay, yeah, maybe this week we listen to Green Velvet, whoever the hell that is, you know? Yeah, you're going to listen to Rainbow Kitten Surprise. That's what we're going to do. I'm going to assign you two bands. from like the third and fourth lines of any festival lineup and you're going to do the same for me and then we're going to instead of recommendation corner like look you know it's going to be some

emo album for me i'm going to tell you what dope lemon or claptone is up to maybe we'll do that next week we'll just assign each other some homework and uh will it'll be streaming slop artists of the week and we'll have a couple of them that could be a good time all right well that's enough about bonneroo let's talk about the big big indie rock album of the week. And Ian Coens, was this your number one pick or your second pick? FK.A Twigs was number one, but, you know, this could have been my number one. It's on my team. And yeah, it's currently got a 74. This is probably the lowest score anything that's ever been in our fantasy draft has achieved. I think this one's over before it begun.

Yeah, I think I might have tricked you into that. That might have been my Jenae mine trick here of the draft. Not intentional, by the way. But anyway, we're talking about the latest album from Ethel Cain. It's called Perverts. And for those who don't know, Ethel Cain is an artist originally from Florida. And she really came on the scene a couple years ago with an album called Preacher's Daughter, which is this sprawling sort of Americana type record, but there's elements of singer-songwriter pop, like ambient metal, sort of lo-fi indie rock, some country music is in there. there. It's just like a big kind of fascinating Heartland Rock record with like these storytelling lyrics that are really dark and kind of deal with like an underbelly of America, the kind of thing

that you get from like David Lynch films or like Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska or Lana Del Rey to whom she's frequently been compared. And it's a record that I'm a fan of. I've really gotten into it over the years. I think it's a really interesting record. I think it really shows Ethel Cain as being one of the more distinctive singer-songwriters. And something that I really appreciate about her is that she isn't someone who is necessarily being straightforwardly autobiographical. I'm sure there are personal elements to her songs, of course. I mean, she was raised in a sort of a strictly religious background, and you can hear

that influence in her songs and the things that she's writing about. But it's not the sort of like plainly. stated almost journal entry type songwriting that we've been getting from like a lot of people, a lot of singer-songwriters in the indie world lately. It is more, I guess, going back to that idea in the early 2010s where you had people like Lana Del Rey, Father John Misty, I'm even going to put the weekend in this category as well because he did start off in more of like an indie rock world where you have these people who are sort of building personas and building worlds around their music.

And I really like that kind of songwriting, and Ethel Cain is a part of that. This record, perverts, I mean, it's aptly named, I'll say, because this is one of the more perverse records that come from a budding superstar that we've seen in quite some time. First of all, it's build as an EP, even though it's 90 minutes long. So it's 15 minutes longer, actually, than Preacher's Daughter, but this is classified as an EP. and there's been some interesting framing with this record

where it's not really presented as a full-fledged follow-up to Preacher's Daughter. I guess that's why maybe there's the EP framing there. But the music itself is pretty confrontational. And not always in like a loud, abrasive sense, although there are sounds like that on the record, but more in sort of like a droney, spacious, almost like unmelodic sense really,

where you have multiple tracks on this record. I think there's four of them that are over 10 minutes long. And look, I like long songs, but a lot of these songs really are not really dynamic at all. It's like long, ambient tracks where you might have like a loud, clumping beat. You have what sounds like room noise, recorded like in an abandoned tire factory or something like that. Some sort of like industrial noise going on.

Maybe like by the 11 minute mark, you'll get some synth line that comes into the mix that is vaguely melodic and draws you in. But you got to wait about 600 seconds to get to that point. There are some like really like pretty kind of slow burn ballads on this record. There's a song called Punish, which I guess was released as the single. If you want to call it that, There was a music video for it before the album came out.

That's one of the more conventional songs on the record. There's other instrumental type songs or songs that have like very minimal lyrics. That to me remind me of like an interstitial track from like a cure record, you know, or like some other goth record. Or maybe be the beginning of a cure song, you know, before Robert Smith comes in. But, you know, on Preacher's Dogger, he had the song American Teenager, which was this very good. grabby single. It sounded a bit like a red era Taylor Swift song if it

had been a demo for born in the USA. You know, it had that kind of feel to it. Very anthemic, very grabby. And even the long songs on Preacher's Daughter, they build to something satisfying and they feel like songs. And a lot of this album does not feel very song

oriented. I don't know if your feelings on this are colored because this might torpedo your fantasy team, Ian, but I'll I'll say like as someone who grew up in the 90s in the alt rock era and grew up with artists that routinely made records like this, like after you have your big record, you make your sort of like FU record or you're like, I'm freaked out by fame and I want to shrink my audience type record. I have affection for this kind of album and I appreciate what she's doing. I mean, I will say that compared to something like in utero or kid A, which are like two of the more famous examples of that kind of record. I mean, this is barely an album.

I mean, those albums are albums, and they were considered initially to be alienating, and then eventually people loved them, and they were, like, people's favorite record by those bands. This album, I don't expect to have the same kind of life, but I don't know. I appreciate it as a gesture, perhaps, more than I love it as music.

Yeah, I have, shockingly, divorce myself from my belief about how it's going to affect my fantasy draft. I already joked. This was the equivalent of the Buccaneers taking Bo Jackson with the first pick and he threatened to play baseball instead. Right. Yeah, it's 90 minutes long, as you mentioned, which I don't think, like I think people really need to put this into perspective because it can be hard to keep track of this stuff in the

streaming era. But this is longer than every single Godspeed, you black emperor album. just to give you, yeah, because like I was listening to a lot of albums from 2000, recently, like DeAngelo's Voodoo, and nothing turned itself inside out, Yoletango, and like those all, like, man, these are long as fuck. This is 10 minutes longer than all those. You know, I listened to it only once because we're recording on the 9th, and it came out on the 8th, and I did not get a advance, so, and it's 90 minutes long.

Yeah, are yay or nay on grouper for you? I have to push because I haven't gone deep. enough on grouper to give a verdict. Okay, yeah. So this is sort of like in the way that Kid A, I imagine that back in 2000, you know, electronic music snobs would say, oh, they're just ripping off square pusher. They're just ripping off A-Fex twin and doing it in a more commercial style. I mean, this is sort of like the grouper version of that, which, you know, I got to respect

that. I think Ethel Cane killed it on the 10-minute version of American footballs for sure. that which would be like by far the most accessible song on here even though it's 10 minutes long and I'm interested in it as a statement because a lot of the reviews of this record have pointed out like that it is indeed anti-fame because her fan base is kind of for lack of a better word insane and a lot of this is like kind of pushing back on it and you know how efferves, Ethel came in a Tumblr pose, talking about how, like, kind of feeling violated by what people expect from her or what people feel entitled to.

And I would agree that this is, you know, to use your framework, a very anti-fame, extreme album, if it was an actual album. Like, I cannot stress how much that hedges on what I think would be, you know, the daring, daring nature of it. because a lot of the reviews have kind of soft peddled what they think of it. It's like, yeah, yeah, this is kind of like a throat clearing or just like a diversion from the real follow-up to Preacher's Daughter. And so they're kind of, like, I mean, 74 feels like a weird sort of middle point between like praising it through the roof as like a metal machine music type FU. And on the other hand, it's like, yo, I don't.

actually enjoy listening to this. Well, I will say that, because, you know, we've talked about the length, and I don't think it's necessarily about the length. This could have been 90 minutes and had 25 pop songs on it. True. And it would have had a different feel. Or this album could have been 50 minutes, but because of the nature of it, it would have still, I think, felt like a challenging listen, just because there are so many tracks on

the record that are really just about... this sense of like discombobulation in giving that feeling sonically. It's about drones and just not even a drone, just like room noise. I mean, that's what a lot of these songs are. And I think that's what makes it difficult. And to me, a record like this is why I'm glad I don't write for a place where I have to give a score to an album. Because I do think if I had to give it a score, it probably would be a low score. score. But I think with a record like this, it's more interesting for me not to do the

yay or nay, but to write more about what this record sounds like and what I think maybe the motivations are for it. Because it clearly, I think, is not intended to be a full-fledged follow-up to that record. No matter how sprawling it is, I think it is a record that I don't want to just call it a provocation. I think it definitely is a provocation. But I also think, in light of what you were saying about her fan base, that it feels to me like an attempt to de-center herself from her music because she's not really visible here.

And there is this cult of personality to her that I think has been a little overwhelming in the way that people have glommed onto her specifically. And it feels like this record in a way is her attempt to be like, okay, I'm taking myself out of my own record. And not only are you not going to hear my voice a whole lot, I'm not even going to give you

a lot of the sort of melodic things that I was giving you before. I'm going to really kind of put you into this blank space. I'll say like I listen to this record on headphones at a pretty good volume. And I will say that it did take me to a place when I listened to it.

It did give me a feeling listening to the record. Am I always going to have 90 minutes to sit around with headphones and listen to this front to back? No. But if you think of it more like a movie, and less like an album, I think it becomes a little more attractive.

Or maybe like an art installation more than an album. Because to me, it's more like that than like a regular record. Yeah. And I also think with the kind of the intensity of the fan base, it's not like a pop fan base for Ethel Can. I almost wonder if like this is a move that's going to kind of work where it's like, yeah, like as a fan base, we are kind of shitty. Thank you for like putting us in our place, mother, you know.

I do think that there's going to be a component of that. I don't think this is going to chase off the squares. I don't think there's a lot of squares in the Ethelcane fan base. But yeah, I think it's a cool album to just start the year off with because, you know, right now there isn't a heck of a lot else being released. Like album-wise, there's a lot of announcements. And so you have time to sit with and process a 90-minute album that dropped on a Wednesday for some reason. Yeah, that's another thing. I kind of like that she did that, though.

Thank you for doing that, so I don't have to guess at what this thing sounds like. It's closer to the old release date, which is Tuesday, which I miss. I miss when it was on that day. But, yeah, I mean, I'm going to disagree with you a little bit. I think that there are quite a few people who probably loved American teenager and put that on their playlist. And that's how they got into Ethel Cane. And that there probably will be people who just hate this record. Maybe it gets them off the train a little bit.

and then that's going to leave the people who are going to take loving this record or defending this record as a point of pride. We're the real F-L-King fans. We get what she's trying to do. And all these other people, you just like that one popular song. I actually think that there probably is a bit of that in her fan base. And look, that's a trick that people have done forever. Radiohead, hey, you just like creep?

You just like, okay, computer, we're going to put some bleep bloops on a record and we'll see what you think then. or Nirvana, like we're going to hire Steve Albini to make our record, and it's going to supposedly be alienating, although it doesn't sound that different from Nevermind. This record, in contrast to those, I think this is a legit break. I think this is a much more extreme version of this kind of record than we've seen from.

Because, you know, if you think of like modern examples of that, like I would put the Kendrick record, Mr. Morrell and the Big Steppers in that camp. I think that was a record that was like pretty alienating for a lot of people. But even that is like a little grabier than this album. Like it's still like bunny bear, you know. Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, Bunny Bear 22 a million. That's a pretty radical break from, you know, the Bunny Bear, Bunny Bear record that won the Grammy.

But it's still, at the end of the day, it's still Justin Vernon writing songs. And if you get past the initial shock of the difference, it coalesces as a, as a, Bunny Bear record, I think, pretty quickly. This does not really. It is a real break from what she does. And again, I respect it. I appreciate that she's done that. I'm glad that she's not just chasing the Bop economy that like every other big pop star is. So I, you know, as a Gen Xer or as like a older millennial, whatever I am, I like that. But I'm still going to listen to Preacher's daughter more than this record. Yeah. And I also think how much like our view of this is shape. by our experience of like paying money to hear something like in utero and kid A and you know how this

is on streaming and I you know she's all she's experimented with a lot of like ambient stuff in the past so it's sort of like you know in utero or kid A where it's like it's not like completely unprecedented what you're going to get from them but it's just taking like some of the more alienating parts and expanding it to make it the entire thing so I respect the hell out of this and sounds like you do as well Maybe when it comes time for year-end, we're going to put Punish in our top 10 just because, like, yeah, it's my most listened to song because it came out earliest in the year. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens.

All right, we've now reached the part of episode that we call a Recommendation Corner when Ian and I talk about something we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so January tradition, like none other, is me publishing Up Rock's best emo albums list at least a month after all the other year-end list have run. you know what, it gives you the opportunity to check out records that in no way, shape, or form appearing on any other year-end list. So I'm going to talk about the last album I included on that list, which is Palm Fretz. You'll be back when things fall apart. I want you to go, as I say that name, look at the album cover. It is a bunch of people in front of a house. So you have a pretty good idea of what this album is bringing. They describe themselves as Ozark Mountain Emo. They're from

Springfield, Missouri, which is like Missouri State University, and I'm like the Vince McMahon meme when you talk about stuff like this. It's like emo, Ozark Mountain emo, college town emo. It hits all the marks. And so you know exactly what this is going to sound like. And it does that sound really, really well. I think the most indicative part of this album is that there's one song where they pull out a riff. That sounds exactly like the hotel years, your deep rest. And it dawned on me that these people were nine years old when that album came out. So if you want to hear an emo album where like home like no place is there is classic rock, you're going to like pomfrette. So, yeah, for 2025, we're starting out with wheelhouse emo. This is like the meme of Matt Damon

aging into the old man at the end of saving Private Ryan. That's a total moment for that. I want to talk about a record called Heavy Metal, which is not a heavy metal. Which is not a heavy metal. record. It's a record that is totally unlike heavy metal. It's by a guy called Cameron Winter, who you might know he's in a band from New York called Geese, not Goose, not the jam band, but Geese

from New York. And this is a band that's really grown on me over the years. They put out a record in 2023 called 3D Country that made my year end list. And Geese is this kind of jammy, proggy, funky band that is all over the map

but has a lot of swagger, a lot of juice and that record is really good if you haven't checked that out. The records that Cameron made by himself that he called heavy metal is not really like that at all. Actually, in a funny way, a band I would compare this record to is Ian Cohen favorite Black Country New Road. It has that vibe to me of sort of like an art rock theatrical, not quite emo, but definitely more in that Artie range and Cameron Winter in Geese and also on a solo record

he sings in this really low kind of croonery type voice which is a real I think love or hate it type vocal style and I'd even say for me when I first heard Geese like his vocals I didn't really know what to make of it and over time I came to like it

this record I'm putting it in my recommendation corner even though it's not a full-throated recommendation. I should mention by the way this album came out, not this year, but it actually came out in December after year end this season. So for the people that get upset about year end list coming out too early in December, this record is an example of something that got passed over because a lot of the year enlist already came out. But anyway, for me, I don't totally love this record yet. It is kind of a challenging record. I think some of the black country new road-like

elements are slowing it down for me a little bit. But it feels like the kind of record that I'm probably going to end up loving the more I listen to it. And I really respect what Cameron Winner is doing because I do think he is with his band geese and with this record trying to do something different in the indie rock space, something that's not just immediately gratifying, but something you do have to sit with and take some time with. So I appreciate it.

Even though I'm not fully on board with this record yet, I think I'm going to get there and I really like what he does. So Cameron Winter, heavy metal, I'm giving it the recommendation. Corner from me this week. Yeah, I've listened to this record and, you know, I find it interesting. I think that Geese is a band

that's going to be embraced more in the future. I think some people were like kind of turned off early on because they seemed like a New York hype band, but they're getting more interesting. And this record is definitely interesting. I heard someone describe the vocals as Bonnie Prince Billy off. Galaxy gas, which is a very, that image is burned in my brain.

But, um, see, I would say it's like Huckleberry Hound doing a Morrissey impression. That would be my description. And I, and that's complimentary. Yeah. From me. Uh, but yeah, definitely, if you haven't heard 3D country by geese from 2023, that does get my full throated endorsement. That's a great record.

Definitely check that out. That about does it for this, uh, episode of Indycast. you all for listening. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash

indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.