Indiecast - New Music From Phoebe Bridgers + This Is Lorelei, Plus: An Old Deftones Album Leaks and The Most "Relevant" Music Critic Ever Is ...

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

The conversation begins with speculation about the leak of the historic "lost" Deftones album "Eros" (1:27), as well as a brief Sportscast on Giannis leaving Steve's one-time home of Milwaukee (7:17). After a quick Fantasy Album Draft update (16:37), the guys talk about new album announcements from Phoebe Bridgers and This Is Lorelei and how they feel about their respective prospects this year (19:22). Then they look at the week's new releases, including albums (33:40) before reviewing an online controversy this week involving Anthony Fantano (39:49). Finally, in Recommendation Corner Ian recommends the latest from Chanel Beads and Steven recommends the English band Swim Deep (56:08).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Amazon Music. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about new album announcements from Phoebe Bridgers, and this is Lorelei. And we discuss who the most relevant music critic of all time is. And you only have two choices. Catch what those are.

Anyway, my name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's the one who leaked Aeros online. Ian Cohen, Ian, who are you? I mean, look, it's all love with me and Deftones, you know, Chino, Steph, A, Frank, and the new bassist Fred. But I told them at the end of my interview with them for Vice last year.

It's been six, seven years. RXK nephew, a deal of deaf tones, is an idea whose time has come. Do it, or I'm leaking the copy of Eros I found on the stylist.com message board. And they chose BK the ruler. you saw what happened, I am a mad of my word. You're like the joker of long-lost, you know,

2000s, I guess it's 2000s-era album. It's 2000s era. And I'll just say, maybe they're just mad because they didn't make your best lost albums of all time list. Yeah, that's true. So anyway, we're talking about this album, Eros. It's a Deftones album recorded in 2008. It's the record that they were working on when their original bass player passed

away. Chi Chang? Mm-hmm. Yeah, he got into a coma. He died in 2013, but that was the last one they were working on when he was still, you know, conscious. Right. So he had a car crash in 2008. So this album has been shelved, legendary record.

It actually leaked briefly early this week. I don't think it's online anymore, but for those who might have grabbed it. That is one of the big lost albums of the last 20 years. Yeah, I would say so. It's been this thing of legend amongst the Deftones community because it came at such an odd time for the band. Like Saturday Night, Saturday Wrist would be a great 33 and a third because they worked with Bob Ezrin. They worked with Dan the Automator. I think Rico Kasich or something like that was in there at one point.

It was just this colossally complicated, expensive album that ended up being kind of a moment. popular but now like the 20 year olds love it and so eros was supposed to be this kind of return to form comeback but they actually ended up doing that on diamond eyes so it's yeah and also just with the legend of chi chang um but you know chino was always like it's not finished it's yeah there's some placeholder vocals and the people who have heard it have said yeah it sounds like half finished deftones there's clearly some placeholder lyrics some like uh stock synth uh uh sounds in there and I mean I don't know about you but the proliferation of heavy shoegays over the past 15 years means I've listened to like hundreds if not

thousands of songs that sound like half finished deaf tones I don't know if that makes the genuine article more appealing yeah and then there's also all the baggage of just the tragic circumstances of the record I'm sure that that's not something because you would think that under normal circumstances if you have this half finish record that's legendary and you wanted to put it out that you would just go back and and put on some overdubs, finish the songs, but I'm sure those guys, because of the car crash and what happened after that,

it's probably not something they would really want to revisit. It's best kept in the vault. I find that with a lot of these lost records, that they tend to be better as an idea than as an album. Like this record, if it had come out, it might just be one of the mid-career Deftone's records that people don't love or maybe it's underrated, but it doesn't have the same appeal.

But now that it's this lost record, it's a mythological object, it has a stature that probably exceeds the actual music on the album. Exactly. And that's also, I mean, that era of Deftones, like 2003, the self-titled, like through Diamond Eyes, like before Diamond Eyes,

like that is a, if you go to Dio Adelos Deftones, which is a festival where they pull out, out like the deep cuts, they don't play a lot of music from that era. They'll play cherry waves from Saturday at risk because that's become like the TikTok hit. But, you know, from all, accounts, like the session's really good, but it's a pretty dark time in that band's life. And I mean, I respect anyone who doesn't want, you know, the demos to be leaked. I don't show anyone drafts of my work before I turn it in. It's such a violation. I don't know if you feel the same. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I have listened to records that were released against the will of the artist. So I guess I've violated that in the past. I don't know. It is tricky. I mean, I think about this with Prince sometimes because obviously Prince has been passed away now for over 10 years. But he had all this music in his vault that he didn't want to put out while he was alive. And now it's being gradually released now that he's gone and he doesn't really have any say in the matter. And that seems a little weird to me.

I don't know. It's an interesting ethical question, I guess. I guess I tend to give into my curiosity as a music fan and listen to it. But now I feel bad. Now that you've taken this ethical stand with Deftone's music, it's making me rethink some of my greedy music fan. pulses. I just want the music. Yeah, but I'm also the type, even when bands share demos, it's like, hey, I'm working on this album. Like, do you want to hear the demos? I'm like, I actually kind of don't. So that's, yeah, I want to hear the finished product. The process is sacred.

It's the same for me. Uh, whenever I'm working. Wasn't it awkward too as a music critic to give input on the creative process as it's happening? Like, I feel weird about that too. Yeah, even if they're not asking for input, I just don't want to do it. Yeah. I just don't want to do it. Yeah, I just feel like, because I've had that happen too, and I just feel like that's not really my role. Like, I'm not the producer of this album. Like when I write reviews, I never think I'm giving advice to the artist, you know? I never think, like I'm, I think some people see criticism that way that, oh, you should, it's like you're giving constructive feedback to the artist. But I don't think that that's the role of the critic.

I think the role of the critic is to talk to the audience. to talk to listeners. Well, maybe that mindset is why we're not top five relevant, you know. Well, speak for yourself, man. I don't know about you, buddy. But me, I'm entering that with a bullet, I think. Let's talk, let's do a quick sports cast here because a very big thing happened in my life as a sports fan. And that's Janus Ante Coupo finally traded from the more.

Milwaukee Bucks to the Miami Heat. And I guess the only good thing about that is that he didn't go to Boston. Yeah. I was worried that he was going to go to the Celtics, which really does seem like that was a better destination for him in terms of actually winning something. I mean, because Janus, he's had a very weird last five years. I mean, he won the championship in 2021. And ever since then, I mean, the Bucks have been.

slowly falling apart and now quickly falling apart. You know, he's been hurt. He's been hurt in the playoffs. He feels like a non-entity in the NBA at this point. He's still obviously a great player. But I also feel like Janus, I feel bad saying this, because he is one of the great athletes in the history of Wisconsin sports. Wisconsin is where I come from.

He's the greatest Milwaukee Buck of my lifetime. or at least when I was around to see them, I mean, I wasn't around when Lou El Sender was playing for the Bucks. But in my lifetime, Janus is clearly the best buck. He transformed Milwaukee. You go downtown. It's a much different place than when I live there. I left right before Yannis joined the Bucks. It's a totally more vibrant place downtown since he's joined the team.

But he is a bit of a corn. ball? I mean, it's bad to say that. I feel bad saying that, but he's kind of corny. Yeah, the Calciads were just really where everything went downhill. I couldn't vibe with him after that. Yeah, and even some of his press conferences where he would talk about, like after the bucks would get kicked out of the playoffs again, and he would do these press conferences talking about how, you know, we didn't get defeated, this is another step on the path to a championship. I mean, that's like the kind of thing that sports writers will tweet about and saying, oh, isn't this great? What a great attitude.

I kind of resented that as a sports fan a little bit, watching that. It's like, dude, no, you just got beat. And like, we were the number one seed. Like, we should have advanced further than this, I think. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel did this massive story, basically telling the story of the last five years and the bucks and, like, what happened. and behind the scenes. And it's a great story, very well reported, but it's very depressing to read if you are a Janus fan or a Bucks fan.

It just goes to show, like Doc Rivers, like introducing him into your organization, just seems like a terrible idea. Like the detail from this story that stands out is that when Doc got hired, he installed a $90,000 golf simulator into the Bucks practice facility. That's a bad thing, and that's a bad thing, how? Well, it just seems like a metaphor for Doc Rivers as this massively, you know, sort of overhyped ego maniacal person who just seems totally overvalued. Like, he has all these relationships with people in the sports media, and it seems like it's given him this outsized reputation that obscures his total inability to, like, when in the sports media. and it seems like it's given him this outsized reputation that obscures his total inability to, like, winning the playoffs or to really, like, or, like, the way he can undermine a team, like, the way he did the bucks.

I don't know. I mean, I'm a Sixers fan, so I saw that firsthand. Well, exactly, yeah. I mean, I was trying to think of, like, a music equivalent to Doc Rivers, like, someone who seems totally overvalued, but yet is just, treated like an expert. And the only example I could think of was like Bob Lefzitz. Do you know that guy? Rick, Rick, Rick. Yeah, Doc Rivers is your Rick Rubin. You bring him in. But Ruben has done more than Doc Rivers, I would say. In recent times? Well, I guess I'm That's what I'm saying. I'm saying like recently. Yeah. That's like Doc Rivers gets these jobs.

Because, you know, he has that reputation. But now you bring him in and it's like, I mean, he's like slightly less poisonous than Jason Kidd. Right. Well, I think, didn't he also coach the box? Or am I wrong? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. These guys just get passed around in the NBA.

The Rick Rubin thing, that actually is a good comparison. So is there a results may vary equivalent for Doc, you know, the Limp Biscuit album? Because, like, Rick Rubin, he's produced the most successful Chili Peppers albums and the least successful Limp Biscuit album. Like, that's his legacy, essentially. Yeah. So I guess the chili peppers are like his 2008 Boston Celtics. He was the coached that, right? He coached that team, right?

Yeah, that was the Mbuntu team. Right, right, right. And that's kind of like a Rick Rubin sort of thing, you know, like the kind of like quasi-bullshit spiritualism. But, you know, if we're going to go in on like the sports metaphor, like I need you to confirm this because you know his work better than me. The Janus going to Miami feels like an Andrew. Watt sort of deal where it is like what a washed team would do to feel revitalized.

So Janus is the Andrew Watt? Well, I haven't quite worked it out yet, but the meeting of Miami and Janus feels, because like, you know, he's like over the age of 30. He's like played for 14 years or something like that. He's been unavailable. And it just seems like this, if you haven't followed the sport, that this is. is, oh, they're like relevant now. But in reality, it's just like kind of a kind of this like superficial, uh, coding on

a kind of washed organization. I also, I also love the fact that the Bucks, um, you know, drafted two of like my least favorite guys in the draft. Like they're going to be terrible. They're going to be like Nets bad for 10 straight years. I know. I meant YHWH nail gun of the draft. Everyone thinks everyone's hyping it up.

Hasn't identified a single. useful skill. Nate Ahmet, I know you like him because he's got, like, you know, he's the son of Pearl Jam's bassist, but that is like, oh, this team doesn't know what they're doing, like wilderness phase. But I mean, you would trade that like 10 years of being asked for like one championship, right? I guess. I mean, it's just, it sucks when it happens after. You know, you'd like to think that it happens before and you're building up to something. And the bucks were, and the bucks were bad forever, really, before you honestly. came along. So it's going to be depressing. I hope it doesn't affect the city that much because,

again, I think like these superstars, they do have outsized impact on these smaller cities where, you know, you're having all these people come downtown and, you know, you're selling out games. And it really, it's bigger than just the team. It really helps to transform, you know, the businesses that happen in the area. So that, that makes me feel bad. It's harder to explain to those people. like, oh, yeah, the books are going to suck for a long time. They're going to suck for a long time. That means that you're not going to have like 25% of your bar business as a result of that. To go back to your thing, though, the Andrew Watt thing, I think a better analogy. And I say a better analogy, because this is an analogy we make all the time on the show.

But it's a very flexible analogy. It works for many things. I think Janus is Dave Navarro. And the heat are the red hot chili peppers. And they're about to make their 100. minute this year. It's going to be a one hot minute season coming from the heat. Because yeah, you got like, you're just going to throw Janice in to a team that was once great and now is on hard times and you could get the superstar in there. But I don't know. Is that going to work well? We'll see. But yeah, it feels very Dave Navarro, one hot minute coded to me. Is Buden Holzer like the danger mouse of this? Like, I'm really stretching my, I'm really stretching my red hot jelly peppers metaphors.

Well, he would have been like the R.E. Marshall. He would have been like the Michael Bynhorn. Because Bynhorn produced Mother's Milk. So it was before Blood Sugar Sex Magic and Rick Ruben Cabin. Yeah, Larry Sanders is the Hill L. Slovak. You know, tragically cut down by, you know, substance uses, or maybe it's Vin Baker. I don't know. But, yeah, we've got two hours worth of material.

on the Bucks Red Hot Chili Peppers Connection. Subscribe to Amazon Music. Yeah. I mean, we really do overplay the One Hot Minute metaphor, but it's so applicable to so many things. I think I'm going to write something where I just liken things to One Hot Minute. I think there's so many things you could liken to that.

Let's get to our fantasy draft here for a minute. We still have one album left. in our draft, and that's Tucker Zimmerman. And this is the last score, because my team is all set. It looks like I'm going to win. You are going to win. I haven't looked to see exactly what Olivia Rodriguez score is. But did you look up Tucker Zimmerman?

Like, what's he at right now? Yeah, you were up by seven. Olivia Rodriguez is 89. And basically, like, this is what I've learned about college baseball, is that if there's like a 10 run lead in the seventh inning, they call the game. And though Tucker Zimmerman's not on Metacritic yet, I see Album of the Year has like an 81 score. I think we can call it. Like this is, this was the hiding quarter.

Okay. Yeah, because I had Rodrigo with an 89, which is a little lower actually than I would have predicted. I thought she would have been in the 90s, but I'll take it. Ice Age was an 87. I don't know if that's gone down. It's an 86 now. 86. Okay.

still very high. Fricco was a 79, McCartney was an 85, Kurt Vial was an 82. So I had a very solid team. Jesse Ware really screwed you. I think that was ball game right there. Yeah, that was the bellwether. I think that was like the first one I picked.

And it just shows that, you know, much like the bucks, or much like one hot minute, we need to retool the clown show. Yeah. My drafting strategy was stuck in 2022. I need to update before we head into next week's draft. Well, that'll be fun. I'm glad I won.

I think you're still up on me career-wise. I think I've only won like two or three times. Three times at the most. It's competitive now. There was like a long streak where I was just like the Yankees tier, Red Sox. And now it feels like a lot more even. I just think in the critical landscape right now, it's going to be harder and harder to predict because there's just so many, there's just not that many people or many outlets that are going to qualify for the Metacritic score anymore.

I think it's going to really come down to leaning on British artists. I think because the British, you know, the skitties of the world, they're still being represented at Metacritic. where state side, I think it's getting a little thin. So it'll be interesting. We have to decide who can transition the best in this new era. This is like the money ball era, really, of the album draft. Well, let's talk about a couple albums that are going to be coming out in the third quarter, I guess, of this year. The big one that was announced this week.

is the new Phoebe Bridgers record, and I'll read from the pitchfork news brief on this. Phoebe Bridgers has cemented her return with the announcement of a new album, Lost Weekend, her first solo record in six years. The Punisher follow-up is due August 14th via Dead Oceans, so she's still sticking with the indie. A month before she heads out on the massive Lost tour, album details are thin on the ground, but you can check out the cover art online, and there's a YouTube video that apparently has been set,

and that's going to be announced, I guess, the day that we're recording. So by the time you hear this episode, the first song from the record will be released. As we're talking right now, we haven't heard any music from this record. So we're not going to talk at all about the music from this album. We're going to purely do Inside Baseball Industry Analysis Talk. And look, we've talked about Phoebe Bridgers a little bit already, talking about the big show. She played at Madison Square Garden, as well as some of the sort of under the radar, or at least performatively under the radar promo event she's done.

These little club shows that she's done in places in Texas, and I think some other places maybe in the Southwest. And, you know, we tend to be very critical of the publicist community on this show. we poke fun sometimes at at PR campaigns. But I have to say, like, this Phoebe Bridgers rollout, I think has been very effective so far. I feel like Phoebe Bridgers knows, she's self-aware about the fact that she is probably the single most overexposed indie artist of the early 2020s.

I mean, you had Punisher, which was a big hit. And then she rolls right into Boy Genius, which was another just huge hubbub. And it seems like she's been very conscious of underplaying this album a little bit. You know, again, she's been doing these promo events that, again, are, I would call them performatively under the radar because she knows that the press is going to be covering these things, but they still have the patina of not being these major media events.

You know, she headlined Madison Square Garden, which was obviously a huge deal, but she charged $1 per ticket. And I feel like most people talked about the phone policy at that show more than the music, which was an interesting thing. I know we did. Yeah, well, I feel like, I mean, that wasn't just us, though.

I think everyone was talking about that. But she's really kept her music underwraps. I mean, she was really encouraging people not to record the show. That was partly why she was keeping the phones and the yonder pouches. But I don't know. I think Phoebe Bridgers is a very smart person.

She's a really good songwriter too, but I think just the way that she has built her career has been very canny. You know, her smarts, her team smarts, I mean, it seems very sharp. And the way she's come back, so far I think has been really strong. And maybe she's studied the other boy genius artist.

I feel like Lucy Dacus had a hard. harder time when she came back and then Julian Baker did that album with Torres that really kind of came and went. I feel like people didn't really even talk about that album one way or the other. But I don't know. Beebe Bridgers is back. I mean, this album's going to be huge, obviously. We're talking about it now. We haven't even heard the record yet. I'm sure when the album comes out, we'll be talking about it a bunch more. But I don't know. I don't know what you think, Ian. But I think she's been very clever with this so far. Yeah, I think it's a good move. I imagine it will be, it will not be like an Olivia Rodriguez style thing where, you know,

they're not Nardois and Anthony Fentano and Pitch 4 cover story. But I think it's worth reiterating how long it's been since Punisher. It predates Indiecast. Punisher does. So it's been, that was 2020 when they had to change the digital release date because this is before Juneteenth was a federal holiday. That's how long ago it was. So yeah, she bumped it up a couple days because people were upset about it having a June 19th release date.

It feels, yeah, it's like a Trump 1.0 release, even though like the phenomenon of Phoebe Bridgers and Boy Genius still feels very much of like a Biden Corps sort of thing. But I also feel like now with this and Olivia Rodriguez, we got a Charlie X, the X, X, the X album coming out in July, possibly Clero. I think some tent polls are starting to emerge. Like, it's sort of like the NBA. It took about six months for, you know, 2026 to play meaningful games. And I'm interested to see how it turns out. I think that she's navigated the backlash, like inevitable backlash pretty well.

And there's a good chance this album could be the number one album in the country, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think she was always the biggest star in Boy Genius. Without a doubt, yeah. That album, I don't think that band is playing MSG without. her. I mean, she just played MSG by herself. And she does have that combination of writing the kinds of songs that people obsess over and also being just like a really engaging media personality. Like I've interviewed her a couple of times.

She's like one of the better interviews that you're going to get, especially for her generation. I've said this before, but like in person, she's a lot funnier than she is in her songs. or songs tend to be a little more downcast, a little more somber. And then you talk to her and she talks like a surfer girl, you know, and is very witty and, you know, profane and rambunctious. And she has that ability to engage people. It seems like on this press cycle that she is going to be avoiding the media. I will say I've made my own overtures trying to get an interview.

I'm sure every person in music journalism is trying to talk to Phoebe Bridgers. and it's been communicated to me that she's really going to be engaging fan communities in a more direct way rather than going through the media, which I think is a very smart move, even though I would like to interview her, as well as a bunch of other people. Give us traffic, Phoebe Bridgers, is what I'm saying. But from her perspective, that seems very smart to me. Yeah, I think so as well. I think that having been born in kind of like a show-based community, she can navigate

this stuff a lot better than a lot of similar artists and I think that's shown and I yeah let's it's a relatively short album release cycle it comes out I think in less than two months um yeah it's a this one will this one is like an automatic most valuable album cycle uh candidate for the indie castes at the end of the year and I'm just very interested to see if it is like Phoebe bridgers type beat stuff you know like over the past several years, I can't remember what it was, but there was, like, one artist who got, like, an actual, like, a major label deal by doing, uh, not parody, but like, Phoebe Bridger's style songs on TikTok. Right.

Uh, yeah. I mean, the, the album cover makes me think it'll be, it's like one of those, like, late 90s. They're going electronica. You know, we got beats and loops, but, um, I'm a little disappointed by the album title. Lost weekend feels a little bit plain Jane, but, uh, yeah, I, I, I am, interested in engaging with new Phoebe Bridgers music and instead of the idea of Phoebe Bridger's music, which is not happened for a long time, at least marine personally. I also want to mention that, well, actually before we get to This is Laurel. I was just going to say

quick that August, normally a sleepy month on the music release calendar, there's like a lot of big records coming out in August. I don't know if you saw like that, that Brandon Flowers country record is coming out. I think the same day as the Phoebe Bridgers album. There's a bunch of albums coming out on August 21st, which is, again, not typically, to me, a big release date. I feel like a lot of albums get bumped to September and October. So that'll be good for us, definitely, a lot of stuff going on. This is Lorelei, who we've talked a lot about on this show. We're big fans of Nate Amos, and this is Lorelai, as well as his other band, Water from Your Eyes.

he officially announced his record after, I think, an extended tease. I feel like people knew this announcement was coming. But he finally announced it this week. It's called The Singer in My Band. This is the follow-up to Box for Buddy, Box for Star from 2024. One of the more critically acclaimed indie rock records of recent years. This album is coming out on September 11th. It's going to be his first album with Matador Records.

And we've also talked a bit about this. This is Laurel I recently on the show. We talked about Nate when he signed a Madador records. And just the prospects of this album. I mean, I've been talking up this record for a while. I was able to hear it a little bit early this year. A little birdie slipped me a link, and I've been listening to it. And it's an interesting record because we just talked about the Brandon Flowers country album.

there's definitely something in the air where things are leaning very country lately where you have artists who maybe don't even make country music traditionally inserting a little bit of twang into their music. And I think this record is another example. I think Nate Amos has had that element in his music already. But this is definitely him

going more toward that on this album. He hasn't made like a full-on like Waxahatchie record or anything. but there's more of that flavor going on here than before, which will be interesting to me. I do think this record is going to be very well received critically, though I do wonder if for certain kinds of people, if him, because it's not very water from your eyes like that more anarchic, weird indie rock thing that he does. This is more, this is kind of like a straighter singer-songwriter record in a lot of ways.

and again, more twang this time than there was before. So I'm very curious, I guess, to see how that's received. Yeah, we've been talking about how, and maybe this doesn't feel true anymore with, you know, Phoebe Bridgers coming out. But it's been a pretty weak year for big indie releases, not just like musically, but media-wise. And I like the new song. It does not, at least to me, feel like a shot across the bow the same way, like taxes or. she's leaving you were for manning fireworks and getting killed. And I don't think this is Lorelei really operates on that level, which can be, you know, bad for the media

part of us, but good in terms of I don't think we're going to be seeing people in bad faith mocking this record or mocking people who are into this as Lorelei, the same way people do with MJ Lenderman and Geese. I think this will be very well received and I think it should be and I think that this is Laurel, I would just continue to make good records. You know, it's not going to be a culture changer. It's not going to auger any sort of, you know, big changes in the way indie is perceived or the way like indie guys are made fun of. But yeah, I mean, it's, I am looking forward to this record. I think it's well deserved the, I guess, make-up call for the previous records not being as

celebrated as they were. But yeah, I also, I also want to bring up, did you see the Biba Doobie album? Yeah. It got an hits. Yeah, it was announced. What's that album called? Do you know? A pylon. Pylon. Yeah. That was, because that was just announced before we started recording, right? Or was that yesterday? That was yesterday. And yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the, this is Lorelei leaning country. Definitely appeals, I think, more to your sensibilities, whereas Biba Doobie. And an artist, I have a join on a song-by-song basis. This has the guy from Pine Grove, a guy from title fight, Chino Moreno, the two guys from the 1975 that everyone knows.

And Brendan Yates and Haley Williams are now just going to be on your record. Like there's a MJ Lenderman and Katie Crutchfield guest stars on one side, and then Haley Williams and Brendan Yates on the other side. Yeah, you just hit a button. Yeah, you just got to have that. You hit a button and they show up like a half hour. Yeah, no, I've enjoyed Biba Dubey as well in the past. I mean, I hate saying the name.

I always feel like an idiot saying the name. But Biba Dubi, who is one of those artists that I feel like streams a lot better than she's written about. I think she's actually like a bigger star than maybe is the perception in like music critic circles. And I think that guess list speaks to that. I mean, because she definitely has the Rolodex and the budget to just hand out work. to all of these indie bands. But that would be a cool record too, I bet. I mean, with that lineup, and again, I think she makes, like, you know,

enjoyable indie pop. And now she's kind of going for more of like an indie flavor, clearly, on this record. So that'll be worth checking out when that album drops. Do you know when that album comes out, Ian? I think September. And I'm looking forward to this because she dropped the Doc Rivers of Production, as far as I know, because Rick Rubin produced her last album. Oh, there you go.

Oh, okay. Full circle. This will be her path back to a championship. Let's talk about new releases out this week. We'll run through this quickly. There's a new Beth Orton record, the ground above. I've never really listened to much Beth Orton. I feel like we're music critics in our 40s.

Like, we should know more Beth Orton music. I know, didn't she date Ryan Adams at one point? And that's a terrible way to... I thought you were to say, hey, wasn't she? on that like chemical brought like the the ballot on the chemical brothers album there was some ryan adam's connection with it and that's a terrible credential i apologize for that i'm sure it's true no because there was those on love as hell didn't he like write there's like songs about love as hell about her yeah like english girls approximately i think is about her oh my god elizabeth you were born

to play the part oh my god i had no idea i was i'd be able to that quickly excavate song titles from love as hell but yeah i mean she's had a long distinguished career yeah i mean she's had a long distinguished career. Yeah. And so all respect to Beth Orton, her record is called The Ground Above that's out today. There's a new Chanel Beads record. Your Day Will Come. I don't go deep on Chanel Beads. Do you know? Yeah, I'm going to be talking about that one in Recommendation Corner. So there you go. You'll be hearing all about that one. So we'll save that for that. There's a new Goose record. Now, this is something I can talk about. Big Modern. And I wrote about this on my substack evil speakers a couple weeks ago. I should say, I think the

streaming version of this record came out on June 12th. This is the physical version coming out today. So I wrote about it. I think it's a really good record. Guse is an interesting band to me because they are obviously the big ascendant young jam band right now. They just played Massad Square Garden. So they're a big deal, but I've actually found

myself enjoying their albums more than their live shows lately. they're actually like a good studio band. Whereas live, especially lately, and this is going to sound like a weird criticism of a jam band, but they're big on like the 20 minute songs lately. And I don't know if that's their forte. I actually feel like Goose is better in like the six to ten minute range. And you get that on this album because they're actually good songwriters. And this album is them leaning into sort of like a soft rock, yacht rock, 80s type thing.

And they're good at doing that. I like them in the studio. So this is a good album, Big Modern. I think it's their best album, actually, in the studio, as the albums are. They're all in the studio. There's a new muse record, Ian. There's a new music. This used to be a big deal on our show.

Talking about music. From top 10 to not mention it all, man. That's tough. It's called the wow signal. The wow signal. Wow with an exclamation point. Wow in all caps. That's all I got.

Jeremy Larson, if you're listening, I'm sorry. responded to your emails about me reviewing this record. I just took that the time. The streets want you to write about the new Muse record? Yeah. Let me guess. You're going to give it like an 8.5, right? Is this going to be like a best new music?

Is that why Jeremy wants you to cover this? Because this is an album that Pitchfork loves. Or is it a slow pitch down the middle. It's something you can just trash and get a good laugh out of it. Recently they had a, they did a good, I think they did like a Sunday review of origin of symmetry or something. like that but you know the last time I wrote about this band was

2018 and the takeaway was like this band like they've survived the worst of not even backlash like forward lash and it's like they've kind of become self-aware and just aren't as fun to talk about anymore

that was the album that they like kind of adopted all that stranger thing stylization and right you could tell it's like we're in on the joke now like doing that that Eve 6 sort of career career move. Yeah,

I can't be bothered right now. Yeah, like when you start being in on the joke, I feel like you get one pass at that. But if you make it your whole thing, it just becomes tiresome. But if you do like one tweet or one music video or one interview where you acknowledge,

like, yeah, we know people clown on us and we understand that, then it's endearing. But I agree. It gets a little too much. I like, there, you know, there is a sweet spot.

with Muse in the 2000s where they were just a pleasurably grandiose band. Origin of Symmetry, Black Holes and Revelations. Like, I like those records. One of the best guitar hero bands of their time. But, you know, I think it just becomes, they're almost like Guar now. You know, like where they're knowingly silly. There's like the Guar of Arena Prague slash Radiohead Rip-offs, you know, and it gets to be a little too much.

But God bless them, the wow signal. Maybe we'll talk about that next week. It gets pretty slow this time of year. Yeah. So maybe we'll end up ranking Mews albums next week if we're really desperate. This is a Switchfoot album, Ian, Forever Now. Switchfoot, the Christian rock band. Yeah, San Diego Legends, although I have to make sure I'm not confusing them with Shinedown.

Shine Down's the Florida one. Yes. Switchfoot is the San Diego one. Yes. They do the, they, Switchwoods just had a festival, they used to have a festival, right, in San Diego. I think, what was it called? You tell me, Ian. You tell me, baby.

They did the Broham in, in, in, in Encinitas. Apparently it's still happening. But, yeah, I mean, look, I might have to, like, get in, not get into Switchfoot, but I might have to become aware of that, like, I'm really, really deep right now in my book chapter where I talk about Pedro the Lion and tooth and nail. and, you know, Christian, alternative rock. And so, yeah, maybe I'll have to, maybe I'll have to get into Switchfoot a little. You know who you have to get in touch with is friend of the show, Rally Walker.

Rally Walker, he is a student of Switchfoot. He would point you in the right direction. That tracks. With them. Let's get to our final topic here before we get to Recommendation Corner. And this is something where, okay, I'm going to relate something very tiresome. I'm doing it for you, although you've already read my piece. I wrote about this on my substack this week, evil speakers.

But I know you were confused by this. And I think I helped clarify this for you. It's a controversy this week involving the internet's busiest music nerd, Anthony Fantano. And if you aren't familiar with him, he is a music critic who posts video several times a week on YouTube and he has an account called the Needle Drop which has over 3 million

subscribers. He is the most visible music critic on the largest video platform in the world and by many metrics is probably the highest profile music critic anywhere going right now.

And he's been mired in controversy this week because I'm going to say this slowly, Ian, because this is very convoluted. But it started, as far as I can tell, last weekend, he posted an interview with Olivia Rodriguez, the aforementioned. Very big star, obviously, number one album in the country, very good get for Anthony, also a sign of his prominence. He's getting possibly the biggest pop star going right now, non-Taylor Swift pop star. So we interviews her, and the Swifties get very

upset about this online. Because there's an ongoing feud going on between Olivia Rodriguez and Taylor Swift relating to songwriting credits on the first Olivia Rodriguez album. There's a song where she interpolated part of a Taylor Swift song and Taylor Swift was like, I'm going to sue you if you don't give me credit, although she technically didn't say sue. It's very unclear what exactly happened. It was all behind the scenes. But anyway, this is something that Swifties, the very toxic, aggressive online swifties have taken it upon themselves to basically hate Olivia Rodrigo forever for this and to rail against anyone who platforms her. So they're mad at Fantano. So they end up digging out this review that he did of a Halsey album. Are you still with

me, Ian? Have you fallen asleep? No, I think I've got it. So they dig out this video that Fantano did, a review of the Halsey album, The Great Impersonator. which is an album I've never heard, so I won't comment on its quality or not. Frankly, I don't care to listen to it. I'm not interested in any level. Again, that's a statement about me, not the album. But anyway, they dig out this interview, and they pull out some quotes from the interview out of context, but that make Fantano look bad.

This prompts Halsey herself to come out and to rail against Fantano. calls him like a 4chan nerd or something like that just lays into fantano Halsey of course we all remember her from when she wished another 9-11 on pitch for it when they criticized one of her albums I don't think it was the same album

I think it was a different album No this feels like a 2019 sort of thing Halsey has a history with music critics so she's reeling against Fantano but again this is because of the Olivia Rodriguez go thing. Are you still with me, Ian? Yes. I am

with you. Okay. So anyway, Variety, now we're getting to the point. We're getting to the point of our conversation. It's been a long preamble, but we're getting to the point of our conversation. Variety, they call up Fantano and they interview him about this, and he says the following. And this is a quote

that was pretty clear to me, but then you have a different read on it. And in the comments of my substack, some people had a different read on it. So I guess we'll talk about this. He says, I don't have to prove my track record to Halsey. I have been the most relevant and impactful music critic of my and any generation for over 10 years now. You can't really debate that. There's no music critic bigger than me who's had more impact than me for as long as I have consistently.

And if I die tomorrow, nobody's going to outdo that right. So when he said that, and by the way, I'll just say Fantano, I've interacted with him a little bit. I interviewed him myself last year for Uprocks. All my interactions with him have been friendly. I'm good with Fantano. I don't agree with a lot of his opinions, but I respect what he does. He has a big audience. He's making it work as a music critic, so all respect to him.

But when he said this, I wrote about it. my read on this is that he's saying he thinks he's the most relevant and I hate the word relevant by the way but let's just say he's saying I'm the most important I think that's a cinema do you think that's a fair synonym for that yeah important yeah I think important impactful you know relevant is just it feels like so loaded yeah it feels like cosine or right like all these other kind of marketing terms Yeah, it's such a marketing. And also, I don't know what that means, really. But anyway, I read this as him saying,

I'm the most important music critic ever. Like of all time, basically. You read it differently, right? Yeah, I did read it differently. Like, what's your read on that? Because you're saying that he's saying that I'm the most important of the last 10 years? So here's how I'm framing it.

for over 10 years now, I have been the most relevant, impactful music critic of his or any generation. What I take that to mean is that for 10 years, he's been the top dog. For the past 10 years, he's been, he's not saying that I don't think he's saying he's the greatest of all time. Like, the way I view it is if Shea Gilgius Alexander said, I have been the best player, I've been the best NBA player over the, of my or any generation for the past two years.

And I don't think he would be saying, I'm better than LeBron all time. I'm better than Steph Curry all time. I'm better than Michael Jordan. It's just like, I've won the MVP the past two years. LeBron hasn't. Michael Jordan's been out of the league. That's me.

So in that analogy, you think he's comparing himself to players who don't even play anymore? Yes. See, that doesn't make any sense to me. To me, if you say, like, I'm the greatest player of my generation or any generation, What you're saying is not only am I top among people that I'm playing with right now,

I'm also better than anyone who's ever played. I'm thinking what he means is that, like, for people of who aren't of his generation, like say Robert Crisgow or like Rob Sheffield who are still going, I think he's saying, yeah, I'm bigger than them. Yeah, but like wouldn't that mean like my generation, doesn't that mean generational cohort? Because like I, because to me, wouldn't you just say, like, if it was just the last 10 years, why would you put the generation in there? Wouldn't you just say,

I'm the top music critic of the last 10 years? Because that would cover the generational thing. To me, if you put the generational thing in there, to me, generation means eras. It doesn't mean like groups of people because otherwise there'd be no reason to denote generations. You could just say, I'm the best, I'm the top music critic of the last 10 years.

I think what that might be doing there, and boy, this feels like a leap. that I don't think I'm going to convince you is that he's the fact that he is a audio or audio video music critic I think people

say that would make people say well of course he's like the most important music critic of the past 10 years derogatory because shit's gone downhill. It's all YouTube now but I think what he is saying is that you know there you think of a guy like you know

the August the venerated of music criticism who are still going and I think he would say that my stuff still is more relevant than anyone

like the top dogs so that's my interpretation I would love someone maybe we get on the show to do a follow-up yeah that would be great come on because to me generation again

it means like a group of people in a certain amount of time so by him saying generation any generation that then he's saying like of any group or any era of the past. That's to me what if he doesn't mean that, then this is a very muddled statement.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with muddled because I think that people tend to say, I think that like this is something I've learned like in my real life job, which is that, um, I think people have difficulty saying exactly what they mean. And I think maybe this is due to the fact that he's,

you know, like a verbal person rather than like a writer person. you know, not known for his like sharp criticism, but I think the bigger question I have is maybe less about the like what he's actually saying than is it true. You know, like regardless of which way we look at it, like whether he's, you know, the top dog, if you were doing for, you know, Grantland 2.0, the championship belt of music critics. He's been holding it for two years. Well, that's why this is important because if it's ever, I would say no.

But if it's last 10 years, I would say yes. I mean, I don't think this really, I mean, for individual people. I mean, the thing is, is that we're in an era now. We're for writers. Typically, you were part of a publication. So, like, if you're right for Pitchfork, for instance, pitchfork is the brand. Like, Pitchfork gives albums 8.3s, not individual writers.

So it's harder to matter as an individual in that system, whereas Fantano is, he's got his own channel. He's been an independent for a long time. I think now we're at a time where it's probably going to be more independent writers than there were in the past because of things like substack. So maybe that'll change that conversation a little bit. But yeah, clearly he's the biggest. He is the single most famous name in the last 10 years. I still think ever I have a problem with.

Although I will say to his credit, he's in the conversation. Yes. And his point about, like if you want to, again, to make this to sports, because they do this with LeBron and Jordan, like when you compare those two players, the thing with LeBron that people say is that it's his period of dominance, the extended decades of dominance that matters. He may not have as many accolades as Jordan had or championships, but the length of time is the argument for LeBron.

And you'd probably say something similar with Fantano. Yeah, I'm going to steal an argument from Chuck Klosterman's new book. our boy football when he talks about the greatest of all time versus the best player of all time. Like he makes the argument that Jim Brown or Jim Thorpe. Actually, Jim Thorpe is the greatest of all time because that's the concept that people have of what it means to be the greatest. Whereas, you know, it's not necessarily, you know, whoever, like Emmett Smith, who I believe still holds like the greatest, the most rushing yards in NFL history. And I can think of it like, you know, with golf or tennis, like maybe more individual sports where you think of, you know, like Tiger Woods, even though like, you know, Rory Montgomery

or whoever might eventually win more titles. So I don't think he's the greatest of all time. I think, you know, that's almost the guys that you've. Yeah. Or most visible. Because greatest is a whole other conversation. Yeah. But if we're talking like relevant or important or visible, I mean, I did my own top five list of most relevant.

And again, not favorite or best, but like people, and I based it on what are the names that people say to me when I say I'm a music critic? Like what are, like what are, like, or if you said to an average person, name a music critic. Like, what are they going to say? You know, so on my list, I had Robert Crisco. I also had Kurt Loder, because I think for a certain generation, like he is the, even though he wasn't technically a critic on MTV News, like he is, to me, like the Walter Cronkite of music criticism. if you grew up in the 90s. And to me, he'd be someone, if we're going to do like the dominant eras type debate,

like he was way more famous in the 90s than Fantana was now. So, so I would say Loder over him. But then at number one, I had Philip Seymour Hoffman playing Lester Banks. Like that is the most famous music critic of all. It's not Lester Bangs. I had him at number two. It's Philip Seymour Hoffman.

as Lester Banks. That is the number one thing. A average person, if you say name a music critic, they're going to pull up a GIF of Philip Seymour Hoffman on the phone talking to William Miller about think pieces. So it's a fictional character, which I kind of mean as a joke, but also I think that's true in a lot of ways.

Yeah, the fact that it's a fictional character, I think, makes it an inappropriate choice for number one. I think that speaks to, you know, the general lot of music writers. And, yeah, it's that, like, I think that for years and years and years, like the fictional portrayal of Lester Bangs, like, or it's so crazy because, like, most people don't think of, like, I think most people think of, like, high fidelity. Like, people use, like, record store guy and music critics interchangeably.

I think, you know, John Cusack and high fidelity might have been that, which also says a lot. but look at work a few years back we had this patient who like immediately recognized all the album cover tattoos I have she would like ask me like out of nowhere what's your favorite Bjork album like this is a person and she also called me Fantano because I wore a red and black flannel on her first day and she did not know I was a music writer like I figured okay this person knows I write for pitchfork I guess and then they didn't find that out to like five months later And I think that is, you know, it's a very small sample size, but I think that Anthony Fontano is a music critic that would be known outside of people who read, you know, all music criticism, like outside of music Twitter. I think that's absolute, like that people would know who he is.

Also, I think it's important to say that he had like kind of beef with Drake and was actually able to kind of fight back. Yeah. I don't think any music writers could do that. He's fighting back against Halsey. I mean, he doesn't back down at all, which is another thing I admire about him. But it's also something that, yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, it speaks to his clout that he could, he didn't have to go into hiding after all these people came out that he stood tall and he was able to take a lot of that stuff. So good for him.

Good for him. And good for Phil's humor Hoffman as Lester Banks. You know, he's the top music critic of all time. Yeah, I feel as if we're going to have to do like a podcast that explain kind of like TV recaps where we like we do a podcast that explains the thing that just happened. And kind of go like this felt like House of Dragon where I had like no idea who was fighting who. I need someone to explain to me. And that's why speaking of like individuals doing their thing, subscribe the evil speakers. We've now reached part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something we're into this week.

Ian, why to go first? Yeah, so I'll bring up the aforementioned Chanel Beads as a New York artist by the name of Shane Lavers or Shane Lavers. I've never had to say the name out loud. So if you're listening to Shane, help me out. Their new album is called Your Day Will Come, not to be confused with the 2024 Chanel Beads album, Your Day Will Come, which I had also mentioned in this space. I love this trick of giving your album the same name, especially if it's not self-titled like Crystal Castles and Led Zeppelin and American Football have done. I would say that Chanel Bees operates in this space that has broadly been defined by people who are more online than myself as Cloud Rock. It's this kind of eerie, somewhat psychedelic take on bedroom indie rock that feels like a throwback to the Altered Zone era. If this was 2010 or 2012, this would be in the running for like an 8.8 or a 9. There's some unsettling catchy songs, some ambient interludes, some kind of jazier sort of

trip hop happen. very immersive more glossy than their last one and if you're the type who still checks out the gorilla verse bear year and list like myself to find stuff that they missed out in the end of the year this will be up your alley this will probably be a top 10 in that big fan feels like a leap uh you know they're moved up to jag jaguar uh which is also in the kind of secretly canadian universe along with phoebe bridgers so chanelle beads your day will come i can't wait to listen to this because it's been a pain in my ass on apple music because it grew itself in with the last Chanel B's album.

So can't wait until it's on streaming, which is today. So I want to talk about a band from England that I've been listening to a lot this week called Swim Deep. This is a band that I would liken to a lot of the groups that I know will be meaningful to you, Ian, bands that followed in the path of Coldplay or that were popular around the same time talking about bands like Travis, who I know predated Coldplay. That's why I'm, I know you in particular will call me out on that if I don't note that. But, you know, Star Sailor, fans of that ilk, just making very pretty melodic, somber, melancholy, British guitar rock.

Kind of the equivalent of what we have in America here with, like, pretty country rock and like a Lord Huron vein. Like bands that maybe don't have much of a profile publicly, but they just are always popular because there's always going to be an audience for this kind of music. And I've been getting those kind of vibes from this band Swim Deep and their new album that's out that actually came out last week called Hum. And it definitely sounds like a record that like you or I would have bought from Best Buy in, in 2006, like for 799 or 699, even has some vibes from your beloved band Hours.

I know. Hell yeah. You haven't brought up hours here on the podcast in a long time. But, you know, you have, like, the singer with, like, the lilting kind of melodramatic vocals. You have these, like, these, like, billowy guitars that, uh, that rise and fall with, you know, the heaving of one's emotional outbursts. Um, it's the kind of band that I don't think has, like, a ton of personality in terms of, like, the personality, it turns of, like, the cult of personality.

Uh, but you put the tunes on and it's a very enjoyable record. And I'm always going to. to have a soft spot for like a well executed version of this like parachutes era cold playesque type rock so again the band is called swim deep the album is called hum um and yeah put it on it's a good yeah i i'm glad you brought this up because i've seen that name and i assume they're one of those bands like still woozy or you know del water gap that has been super duper popular on spotify over the past five years or so but i mean you're bringing trash You're bringing hours into the mix.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm hoping this is true. Like, I know you compared, I was about say Doc Ellis, dove Ellis to Travis, and, you know, that was what got me to listen to this. But this sounds like the real deal. So I'm looking forward to something maybe like seafood or JJ72. I'm stoked. I can't wait to listen to this.

Yeah, you'll get some JJ72 from this for sure. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out, next week.