Indiecast - Olivia Rodrigo + Black Midi, Plus: Fartlow

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

Last week, Olivia Rodrigo released her highly anticipated debut album Sour. The full-length effort includes three absolutely massive singles, and sets Rodrigo as one of the biggest stars on the planet. However, some of the discourse online was criticizing the praise, questioning whether critics have any place reviewing “teenage” music. On this week’s episode of Indiecast, Steve and Ian dig into Sour, and this confounding divide.Later in the episode, the duo also discuss Cavalcade, the new album from English experimental rockers Black Midi. In the midst of an era of music consumption that gives listeners exactly what they want, Black Midi is the rare rock band with a significant profile that is unafraid of irritating people. At a time when boundless musical comfort food is at our fingertips, the buzz around the group is equal parts confusing and exciting.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Ian is plugging I Won’t Reach Out To You, the new EP from Michigan punks Hot Mulligan. Steve wants listeners to check out his recent interview with Michelle Zauner of Japanese Breakfast, whose forthcoming Jubilee is a big contender for indie album of the year.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we'll be talking about Olivia Rodriguez and Black Midi. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? You know, on a day, how I'm doing on a day like today, I'm just thinking of what my grandfather, Ignatz, Markovitz, told me shortly before his passing.

I know. Yeah, he, he was full of wisdom. I'm going to try my best to do a, you know, a Czechoslovakian to pack a day, unfiltered cigarette smoking accent here. He's like, Ian, every day there's a main character on Twitter and your job is to not be him. You know, this guy full of sage advice. And then he, and then he probably said something inappropriate about the waitress at Denny's when we were at the time.

But, you know, I think about it because, like, You know, today, like, we are in historic times in that, look, there are days where, like, a music writer is the main character on music writer Twitter. Like, we talk about that a lot. And now, you and I have, you and I have been the main character in music writer Twitter from time to time. You know, in the interest of full disclosure. Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, that's not the best day. It's never for a good reason.

And, you know, now we are in a time where the main character on Twitter, Twitter, like the real Twitter, is someone who was, like, reviewing Kimbra albums on Pitchfork in, like, 2015 for, like, a wildly different. Like, Steve, do you want to explain what the, like, to make it in very clear terms what the hell we're talking about right now? Because I, well, I don't know. How deep do we want to get into this? Yeah. Because this person is a trending topic, but not for their given name. but for a name that has been applied to them on Twitter that I think is a very funny name. But also, I don't, it's a little strange because we be like aiding in the dunking of a person who's already being dunked on a lot.

I mean, do we want to wait over this? I think there's a lot of people who may know who we're talking about and those who don't. maybe it's best that they don't know what we're talking about. Maybe they're living lives of richness and experience, and they don't need to dwell on these sorts of things. So I don't know, because you and I were talking about this before the show, it's like, do we want to bring up this person? Just fucking say it.

It's like on the tip of my tongue. I really want to say the name. But, you know. But why don't you say? Yeah, okay. It's like we're both afraid to say can you. You know, we're going to say, Candy Man three times and Candy Man's getting up here.

I mean, I'm of several minds about this because on the one hand, like, the Eve Fartlow controversy is born of like, rich. There you go. You did it. It's born of like really, really, like, awful circumstances, you know, with, you know, the violence in Israel and also, you know, things that are happening in America. And, you know, on the one hand, like, that stuff is, like terrible. And it, like, really just, like, disturbs me on a day-to-day basis.

But also, like, this is, like, legitimately, like, unquestionably fucking hilarious. Like, and it's just, it sucks that. It's, like, born of such an awful, awful thing. Yeah, and, you know, and she wrote a piece, I believe, was for Tablet, where the lead of the story is something like, I don't remember the first person who said E. Fartlow, but that person lit a fire. It is a lead worthy of, like, Biggie and Juicy or, like, Mob Deep shook ones. It's just, like, one of those lines you remember. for the rest of your life.

And I mean, and that's just because we're immature people, that we find the idea of farts being lit on fire to be funny. You know, even if it's an accidental thing there. But here's the thing with me with, like, on the one hand,

it's like, you know, no matter how bad of a day I'm having, like, it's not going to reach that level. Anytime I've been the main character on Twitter, I've never had Seth Rogan laughing at a joke made about my name. On the other hand, like,

This person's audience has, like, grown. This is, like, in some ways, been the most successful music writer to something else pivot since, like, Cameron Crow, you know? Like, they're opening up reverend. I guarantee they're opening up, like, weird, like, right-wing revenue streams that, like, we're out here trying to write, like, a review for a couple hundred dollars. We're asked, you know, who knows what sort of, like, Sheldon Aedelson money this is opening up? Like, this is a real chest. not checkers move here. There's going to be like a fart low episode of Joe Rogan

within the next three months. Yeah. And, you know, God bless you, you know, whatever you need to do. Can't knock the hustle. Look, we're all people at the end of the day. We all need to eat. So, you know, whatever you got to do, whatever you believe in, you know, go with what you're doing.

I want to pivot to another form of Twitter discourse that. that was happening in the past week. And that was about the Olivia Rodriguez album, sour. I almost said sore. I don't know why I said sore. Sour. And you and I, we didn't talk about this album last week because I think that shows how out of touch we are.

I hadn't heard the whole thing yet. Yeah, that's true. I didn't get in advance of the Olivia Rodriguez album. But there was this conversation going on about music for teenagers. because apparently there was maybe like a person or two who made a disparaging comment about the Olivia Rodriguez

album saying this is music for teenagers and there's all these 30 and 40 year olds on Twitter raving about this album and the idea of this being a little strange that all these older people are into teenage music and there was a lot of defending

of older people listening to music made by, you know, high schoolers. And I don't know how you feel about this. I mean, I, this conversation, it's an example of something that I see more and more lately on social media where people either, you know, exaggerate or they even invent critics of something that seems universally liked in order to rail against them. Because in my feed, there was like universal acclaim for this album, which, by the way,

I think is a pretty good album. I don't know maybe we should talk about the album first Yeah let's talk about the album To me the first song on the record Brutal Yeah Is by far the best song on the record It's the song that I saw like a lot of people

Referencing And it has that great line about parallel parking Which I thought was great I think that's a great Can't relate I am fucking awesome at parallel parking Like maybe this is where I grew I was awesome

I was a prodigy Like LeBron James of parallel parking I can't relate to her You are You are like a feat of modern science in that regard. I think it's a common touchstone, I think, of teenage anxiety to be worried about the parallel parking portion of your driver's test. It war my heart to see that teenagers are still stressing out about this, even though they

have the benefit of, like, cameras now in the back of, you know, where they could see the car. So I really like that song. The rest of the album, I think, is okay. It's not, it doesn't stand out to me as much as that one song. But, you know, it's like a first record. It's like a lot of people's first record. It's more about the potential of the artist. And then they go on to make a second or third album.

That's really great. And she's so young that she's still, like, developing her artistry. She's going to be a way different songwriter, I'm sure, by the time she's like 21, 22. So I'd be curious to see how that unfolds with her. I mean, like, what do you think of that record? Well, you know, you brought up brutal. and of course that's the one we're going to like because a lot of people have correctly pointed

out how it's quite similar or it just sounds not dissimilar from say like Illuminati Hotties or like Pom Pomp Squad or you know like Elastica. Yeah that like that kind of like like that kind of theater kid slash improv pop punk and also but also before we go on like we got to talk about the fact that

when we're talking about like pivots There's a guy named Daniel Nigro who does a lot of the collaboration with this one. He's been this kind of behind the scenes guy for a while. You know, just like he's done work with Sky Ferreira, Carly Ray Jepson. And this guy was in a band in the late 2000s called As Tall as Lions, who I reviewed on Pitchfork in 2009. They got a 4.4. Like, as tall as lines are a band that this is what I imagine, like, people who hate foxing think

foxing sound like. That's how I'll describe their band. But now here he is. That's a deep indie cast reference, by the way. Yeah. Referencing, like, we're talking about Olivia Rodriguez, the biggest record on the planet, and you're referencing a record that only our audience would know. Yeah, as tall as lions, look, that's a band that's like probably pretty popular amongst people

who grew up to be indie cast people. It's kind of like quasi-Christian, like, Snow Patrol-ish sort of stuff on Triple Crown. Did that make Pitchfork's Top 38 reviews, by the way? It must have been number like 43 or something like that. It was in the also receiving votes. But, you know, with this record, it's like when I listen to it, I have this, I have an opinion that is like pretty much death on Twitter, which is to say, I can appreciate it's this is not for me.

You know, like this is, It's something where I can appreciate the craft and I can see, especially if, like, you're someone who's, like, primary beat is pop music and trends of teens. But, like, I listen to this. I'm like, yeah, even when I was a teen, I wasn't listening to stuff that really sounded like this. So, but to your point about, like, the arguing with no one, we got to give a shout to, I think we can call him a friend of the pod. Our, you know, our Twitter pal, here you go, is at Kill a Cow with K's. he said there's always someone on Twitter. You're really sucking up to our audience with this one, by the way, because I know he's probably listening. Yes.

This should be like, you know, premium content where people are to pay in order to be directly referenced in an episode. So you're getting a freebie, kill a cow. Yeah, but he's, he like made the tweet that like really encapsulated this whole controversy. He's like, there's always Twitter, there's always someone on Twitter arguing with no one, saying stuff like I was, but I was told Steph Curry wasn't a good shooter. And this really came up with, we talked on a previous episode about like Billy Eilish being like criticized by a couple of Twitter trolls. And then there was a New York Times article recently about her, I think it was British Vogue cover shoot, which was a lot different than her previous press photos. Like on the first album, it was like very concealing, like wearing baggy or clothes. And now she was wearing lingerie.

And this article in the New York Times is about this backlash. And, you know, you give it the slightest bit of scrutiny. And, like, the primary source was, like, this German bot, which has, like, tweeted maybe three times. And so, yeah, when we think of, like, yes, I know there exists some sort of, I don't know, back, like, if you look hard enough, you can find people on Twitter saying, oh. There's grumpy people on there who are probably saying, like, oh, why is everyone care about this album? Yeah. And, yeah, they exist out there. But, like, is there any evidence that that has any influence on?

how this stuff is discussed or covered. No. I mean, absolutely not. I mean, look, and this isn't just about, you know, Olivier Rodriguez. If you look at the culture at large, I mean, there has never been a moment in human history where it was more acceptable for adults

to be into teenage stuff. I mean, adults read YAA fiction. Adults watch comic book movies. Adults are into pro wrestling. You know, adults are into video games. And I'm not knocking any of that stuff. I mean, I'm sitting in my office right now. surrounded by like music posters and it's like a glamorized version of like my teenage bedroom.

So like I live in an adolescent world too. Like we all live in an adolescent world. No one wants to grow up. We're all just dwelling on teenage stuff all the time. So to act like there's this stigma, it just kind of makes me say like it just feels disconnected from reality. Yeah. Like this is like one of the most praise records of the year.

If we're going to talk about teenage music that, like, does have a stigma, let's talk about the 21 Pilots record that came out last week. I mean, I think... Their biggest song is about how nobody wants to grow up, like, stressed out. So, but the thing, you know... But they're a big teenage band. Are they? Yeah, they are. I mean, like, I remember I wrote about their last record, and I wrote about it from the perspective, kind of like what you're saying before about, like, feeling like this isn't for me.

Like, I'm not a 21 Pilots fan. but like if you dig into their fan base and their mythology, you know, it's really deep. And like the people who are invested in it, like are really invested in it. And most of them are like really young. I mean,

they're their teenagers or they're, you know, maybe now they're in their early 20s because they grew up with those earlier records. But, you know, like that kind of teenage music doesn't necessarily get a lot of shine. I mean, because teenagers,

they're not just listening to Olivia Rodrigo. You know, they're listening to punk. They're listening to metal. They're listening to, you know, hip hop, really any kind of music that's aggressive or emotional. I feel like that still is in the wheelhouse of, like, young people. And maybe there's a stigma with that, like a band like 21 pilots that still doesn't really get reviewed. Well, my take on 21 pilots is that, like, if we're talking about, like, the critical mindset,

there is absolutely nothing more embarrassing to that realm of writer than a teenage boy. And so if you listen to like 21 pilots and you think, I mean, also they like remind you of like sublime. They, you know, just like white boy hip hop. But like I think that you get the perception sometimes that like I think there's a sense that like teenagers are only listening to one thing like you're saying. It fails to consider that, like, you know, teenage years are when people also go through their, like, Pink Floyd phase or their, like, Led Zeppelin phase or, you know, or they, like, want to listen to anything besides Olivia Rodriguez because that's, like, what the popular kids are listening to and they can't relate to that at all. Now, granted, maybe things are different in high school than, like, what, you know, we experience, but experience. But, like, I spend most of my day, like, in my real life job around people who are from ages 16. to 25.

And like, I would say that one of the, the most futile thing you can do is try to anticipate what they're thinking because so much of their lives and culture are predicated around like either confusing or pissing off people are age. And, you know, I think it's, I think the, it's not even so much enjoying music that or art that is made for teenagers. And who's to say what that is? I mean, this is the most popular shit on earth. it's made for everybody.

But I think there's a maybe more, I think the critique maybe is more towards like people R.H. who try to maybe front like their like teenage whispers, you know, that they're people who like, it's not that like they enjoy it, but they can like analyze it on a deeper level. Like I just think of Professor Frank who's like doing the pop-up ball like mower.

He's like, I'm enjoying this in ways that you can never, ever possibly perceive, you know. That was a Simpsons reference. Premium content. Premium content. Always. You know, well, I was going to say, like, when we talk about, like, music for teenagers

and how people felt like they had to defend that concept. Yeah. I feel like that's invoked more in the opposite direction where if someone were to say, like, write a review of Olivia Rodriguez, and they didn't like the record. Which I didn't see, by the way. I did not see any negative reviews of that album. I mean, Pitchfork gave it a 7.0. that's maybe like the least effusive thing.

Yeah. Written about that. And the Stan Army didn't come out as far as I know. Which is great for them. Yeah, good. Hats off to the Rodrigo heads for showing some restraint there. Or maybe they're like, you know, they're actual teens and like they're not reading, you know, the most trusted website and music. Who knows?

Let's pretend that teenagers are totally invested in the critical discourse and that they love music criticism. so much. Let's just assume that for now. But like, I feel like it's invoked more like if you were to say be like a 50 year old music critic and you listen to Olivia Rodriguez and you said, this songwriting is overwrought. It's, you know, the production is

derivative. You know, if you went off on it, I think then people would be saying well, this music isn't for you. This music is for teenagers. Like, how dare you put this down when you aren't really part of the audience? Like, that's when I think that's invoked more. Then all of a sudden,

It's not okay for adults to listen to teenage music because they've engaged in it in a way where they don't like it. I think that's where it comes up. Like you silence people with that. And it's funny because we have a reader question that is related to this. And maybe I'll save some of my other thoughts on this for the answer to that. But yeah, I don't know. I just think that's a really sort of convenient way to dismiss any kind of critical. criticism of a record to then say, well, everyone should be able to like this, but then if someone

doesn't like it, then it's like, well, it's because you're this, that, or the other thing. I just think of Bob Lefetz's, like, who, like, is there going to be, like, didn't, like, Taylor Swift write a song about, like, something like Bob Lethsets wrote about her? I think this is. Yeah, that's on mean. Yeah. Yeah. So is, is Olivia Rodriguez and LP2 going to get, like, you know, the as tall as lines guy to, like,

like just get in the lab and write a song about like the one, a dude with like a thousand followers who said, I don't know, this music's really for teens. But then again, by the time that album comes out, she'll probably be 20. Yeah, that's true. Maybe she'll feel the same way. Maybe she'll look back out and go. That wasn't my best work. The second album is the best.

The darker more introspective, Olivia Rodriguez's sophomore album. I mean, I think the thing with the Rodrigo album is that it really, I mean, it's not just, it's not just that she's a teenager. She is writing from a very specific point of view that is very teen-centric. Like, that song, Driver's License, which I'm, like, I wasn't a big fan of that song, really. That song does seem like pretty overwrought to me. But at the same time, I think it's authentically overwrought. Like, I, it's overwrought in a way that feels genuine to the experience of someone who, you know, was dating someone, and then you broke up and then you're driving past their house all the time.

Couldn't agree more. I mean, so in a way, I feel like, I totally understand, like, why that song the way it is, even though it may not really speak to me. There's, like, a song on that record, and maybe I misheard this, but isn't there, like, a lyric on that record where she's like, it's like another breakup song, and she's talking about, like, this bed that we made together. Yeah, but if you're a teenager, though, you totally think in that way, you know. That's like you were married.

It just sounds like, you know, it's like a marriage ballad or something. Like with that kind of lyric. I was like, that lyric kind of made me go like, really? Like that, okay. Shouldn't it be like, I don't know, anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I think though that like it, you're right in that it comes across its like teenage

awkwardness like kind of honestly in a way that a lot of pop punk does as well. But it's like once again, it's like if you listen to a pop punk song, you think about like an embarrassing teenage boy, not like a kind of teen stand in, a lot of people are age one for themselves. And you see that in a lot of art where you see like a teenager. Like I don't, I'm not saying that's happening here, but like when I see in a lot of TV and movies, there's like, yeah, this is very clear that a 35 year old is writing this high school character for them. Like not because it's realistic because it's like this idealized version of like how they

might want to see themselves. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely this thing among adults where. They want to project all this wisdom and soulfulness onto children. Maybe because they feel like when they were teenagers, they were misunderstood by people. And so when they see teenagers now, they project like, well, you're like me when I was that age. And you're smarter and you're more soulful than you get credit for. When in reality, I mean, like when you're a kid, like you're just a kid, you know, you're just figuring it out. I mean, you know, you are dumb about a lot of things.

And that's okay. That's the age to do that. Like, that's totally cool. And you're dealing with all these emotions for the first time. And of course you're going to be overwhelmed. And it's going to feel like the end of the world. I mean, that's how it should feel. It's like bowling for soup said in their hit song, High School Never Ends.

High School never ends. Oh, man, you are like, you are slang for the Indycast listener today. You're bringing a bowl of soup reference in here. bowling for soup. I say bowl of soup. That'd be a good band name, bowl of soup. Bowling for soup's a much better name.

Well, no, I was just going to say, I think there's going to be like a British post-punk band called bowl of soup. They capture the absurdity of our modern existence vis-a-vis soup, you know.

Exactly. The overwhelming, you know, information overload. Yes, and of late capitalism is encapsulated in the name bowl of soup. the new band from England. Catch a Montoura with Squid this fall.

Okay, well, let's move on to our mailbag segment here. And by the way, thank you for the people who left us reviews. I'm told that we got a huge surge in the past week because I asked for some reviews in our previous episode. If you haven't left us a review and you like the show, please leave us a review. It is helpful for us. You don't even have to leave a review.

just like want to leave a rating. That would be great. Unfortunately, you can't do like the point three or point five. It has to be either like a whole. Actually, I think you can do half stars. You can do a point five. But give us five stars. I mean, we're begging here.

We're groveling for praise here. So help us out. It helps the show. Please do that. Also, I just want to remind you of our email address. It's Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. We always get lots of letters. We can't get to all of them.

But we appreciate hearing from you. We love our listeners. You guys always come up with wonderful questions, including this one, which is related to the discourse about Olivia Rodriguez. We were going to do this last week in our episode, but we ran out of time. So we wanted to make sure we got to it. This comes from a reader named Colin.

He's in Colorado Springs. Thank you, Colin. Hey, Stephen Ian. I'm really enjoying the podcast. and I know you're more likely to be my question if I start with some flattery. So let's get that out of the way. Yes, Colin, you are correct. Now I'm going to skip over some of the...

He gave us lots of compliments here. But we want to get to the meat of this here. So, Colin, we read your compliments. We appreciate them. But we're trying... We just begged for compliments a minute ago. We want to be a little less disgusting. So we're going to skip that part of the letter.

He says, what I really want to talk to you about is getting old. I've gathered from the podcast that I'm nearly the same age as you. I turn 40 this year and as I surrender to an ever-receding hairline in an invasion of salt in my pepper. Part of my newfound midlife crisis is feeling increasingly awkward about listening to new young bands. For example, I was recently listening to the album Gammie Gang by Origami Angel and while I really like that album,

I cannot feel like the old dude in the mosh pit who all the young people are sort of trying to, trying to avoid or even laugh at. The question I have for both of you is whether, as critics who are no longer spring chickens, speak for yourself. Yeah, you said this one was flattering, dude. I'm the springiest chicken there is. You ever feel this kind of awkward tension while listening to young bands?

Or in terms of your work as journalist, do you ever wonder if your perspective is far too removed from the people making the records you review? The way I usually answer this question is for myself to think, who cares what anyone else thanks. I like it and that's all that matters. But as critics, I wonder if you ever feel an extra layer to that existential crisis, thanks in advance for reading my question and keep up the good work, signed Colin. So yeah, we were just talking about this with Olivia Rodriguez. Colin is getting a little more specific here talking about indie bands who are really young and going to shows and the awkwardness of that. I have some thoughts on this, but I'm curious

to hear what you have to say, Ian. Because you're around like youngsters all the time and the emo world, I imagine. Yeah, I mean, he brought up Gami Gang, which, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's funny because like, you know, they're in their 20s and they write from what most people would consider like a high school perspective, but it's way, way, way more how I might remember my high school days of like just kind of being, feeling like weird at school and like, you know, uh, using like Neutrogena acne wash and playing video games. Like that to me is like, like, people forget that to high school experience as well. Like, going home playing Jetmodo and like listening to Weasers Pinkerton.

But yeah, I mean, it's something that comes up obviously a lot because, you know, like most people like by our age, they either like have pivoted out of, you know, young indie rock and like going to jazz or something like that or like, like, you know, like hip hop or like and you know, that stuff I like too. but, um, I mean, the thing about, like, I think I'm at an age where it's no longer awkward. Like, me, like, people talk about like, god damn, I feel, I'm 31 at the modern baseball show. Like, I've never felt so old in my life. And yeah, when you're just a little bit older, like, maybe then it's awkward. But I think that at this point, it's just established that, you know, I am older and I'm coming from a different perspective. Um, it gets weird when you see like the drama pop.

like pop off on Twitter and you remember like, oh wait, these are like 22 year olds on Twitter and imagine what it might have been if I had Twitter at that age. So I mean, but that part's weird, but I mean, at shows, it's like, yeah, people know that like I'm just, I'm like the writer who's going to write about this stuff, not that like I'm trying to like fit in or whatever. And this is just like the music that does it for me. And you know, one of the things I learned pretty quickly is that you never want to be the old guy kind of gatekeeping. You see this all the time with rap where, you know, like people like, yo, this ain't real hip hop like five years ago. Like anytime you go on, if you watch like hip hop videos on YouTube, no matter what year it is,

there's always like, yo, this is real hip hop, not like these, you know, stuff that's happening five years in the future or whatever. And like this happens like 10 times over for Lil Wayne. I used to be a little more of like, yo, I'm not feeling like where Emo is going right now. But I mean, it puts you in a weird position

because on the one hand, you don't want to be the old guy gatekeeping. But on the other hand, and this comes up with like the Olivia Rodriguez stuff as well. It's like, do you really want to just credulously

accept what the kids are doing in the interest of like not feeling washed? Yeah, I mean, right. And I think that's the tension that a lot of critics face as they get older. And the idea of, yeah, you don't want to be the scold, but you also don't want to be like, you know, the Steve Bishemi Giff.

Where, you know, from 30 Rock, we have the skateboard over your back and you're acting like you're 21 years old, even though you're not. I mean, I think that's kind of an awkward thing. I know, like, for me, I mean, just to go back to what he was saying about feeling awkward at a show, look, no one cares. You know, no one's looking at you and judging you

based on you being at this show, they're there to see the band. So I think any self-consciousness that you feel about that, you just have to say like, well, look, I mean, who cares? I'm just, unless you're making a spectacle of yourself, you know, and like trying to start a mosh pit or something. I mean, I think just be you. No one really cares that you're there or not.

Just enjoy the show. I will say, like, as a critic, you know, sometimes, I never feel self-conscious about liking what I like. I think you like what you like, you follow your heart, your instincts. I mean, if you're going to be a successful critic, you have to do that. There are instances, however, where I feel like as a commentator, I don't need to be at the center of this conversation. You know, it's like I'm really interested in hyperpop, for instance. Like a lot of that stuff I've listened to and I've enjoyed it.

But I also feel like I kind of would rather read someone who's like in their 20s right about this. Because they're actually native to this culture. They've like been immersed in this for a good part of their life. and they're going to have a perspective on it. That's just different from mine. I mean, the analogy I would make is, you know, like if you're, like, really into, like, uh,

like, like French culture, like you love France and you, and you know how to speak French and you love wines and you love cheeses. Uh, as an American, you're, you're still not French. You know, like the French people are French and they're the authority.

You, you would, you could admire that stuff, but you're not going to, like, put yourself up as the authority on it because you're still an outsider. Yeah. And, and I think that,

is the best way to approach this to have like a little humility with this. Like you have an open mind and you like what you like and you embrace change and you embrace new things that come along. But you don't feel like you have to center yourself as like the expert on it. You can take a step back and listen to other people who are maybe more a part of that world who can explain what this thing is. To me, I think that's like the best way to go with this sort of thing. I think the smartest thing I've ever done as far as explaining my situation or just like my relationship to the music that I cover is that like I make it very, very clear that like I am not a part of the scene.

Like I have not been in the basements for the most part. Like I did not like I was not. I'm not an alumni of some, you know, basement scene in Philadelphia or Chicago or whatever. Like I am an observer and a fan of it. And that like I do not claim anything. kind of punk credentials, which, you know, on some level people might say, like, oh, that, you know, you're a pose or whatever, but, like, I don't really give a shit. I think that the bands don't mind that they have someone who's, like, removed from, you know, that kind of micro-insular scene,

like writing about them. And, I mean, it's freeing, you know. It is, it, and like you said, like, one of the things that you learn, I think, when you get older, and this is something I talk about a lot, like, in my real life job, when people are, like, wondering if everyone's looking at them. It's like, for the most part, no one's thinking about you anywhere near as much as they're thinking about themselves. So, you know, right. Yeah, if you're at the show and, like, you're wondering what this 23-year-old is, like, thinking because, like, you showed up wearing the same clothes you wore to work or whatever, it's like, they're worried about, like, you know, how much drinks cost or whether, you know, their friends are going to, like, catch a ride home or whether they're going to play the song. Like, they so don't give a shit about you. Yeah, and I think, especially like now, I mean, you know, who's going to judge someone for going to a show at this point?

Yeah. You know, we've all been, we've all been cooped up. You know, we're all ready to, you know, live our lives again. And, like, someone's going to judge another person for, you know, enjoying music at a concert. I mean, that's their problem, not your problem. But, like you said, there is no problem because they don't care. No one cares. No one cares about anyone.

we're all the protagonist in our own movies in our head. I believe it's called the protagonist of reality. Yes, exactly. I think I read that. The world didn't exist before we were born. Then we were born. The world existed. Nothing happened before us.

Our perspective is the only thing that matters. I mean, that's how we feel in our heads. That's how everyone feels. We lack object permanence, which that's another band that's going to go out on tour with dry clean this year. Object permanence really digs into the, That's not banal enough. I don't think, I think that's a little too, well, maybe that would be more, that'd be like a song title for the band that we're going to be talking about next, perhaps. Again, King of the Segways.

Can I get, I'm complimenting myself now. I'm patting myself on the back. Yeah. Can you imagine? Like, I really think at some point we should do this, like maybe like 2021 pitch for a quest, we should do it live to let the people know, like live as in like on camera, to let the people know. Like this is, this is like real, like, off the dome stuff, man. These segways are not planned. See, like, I think if we did a live event, the whole audience would be like guys and hoodies standing against the wall on the opposite of the state.

Like, no one would stand in front of the stage. Everyone would be against the wall in the back because that's our audience. It's like it's the guys in the back. Yeah. The guys and the women in the back who don't want, you know, arms folded. Who are worried about, like, being judged for being a little bit older because they're the one guy in their group who's still, like, indie rock like we see you if we uh like if we sold tickets like the most expensive tickets would be the ones in the back and like the ones in the front would be free it's like yeah you could sit in

the front you don't have to pay anything but if you want to stay in the back it's a hundred dollars and we would clean up it'd just be people paying a hundred dollars hand over fist it'd be great um let's talk about black midi yeah let's talk about black middy speaking of teenage music yeah some kind of teenage i want to i want to meet that teenager that's into this band um This is a band from England. They formed in 2017. Incredible musician names in this band. The lead singer of the band is named Giordi Griep.

Oh, yeah. And his picture that I've seen is like from the onion like voices on the street. Like it's just an incredible, like if you look at the Stereo gum article about Bob Dylan where they had 80 people talk about 80, like on his 80th birthday, there's a picture of this guy, Jordi Greep. Like, his name is Jordy Greek, man. Like, I gotta know if... That's like Kurt Vial level. Like, wow, that is his real name.

I wrote a review of their record that's out today, which is called Calvocade. And I had a joke where I said that if Thomas Pintz, like, if this band didn't exist, Thomas Pynchon would have invented this band because it's such pinch-esque names, like the bass player's name Cameron Pickedon. Wow. And then the drummer actually just has kind of a regular name. His name's Morgan Simpson, although he's my favorite member of the band. Just a killer.

like just a kick-ass drummer. They put out their first full-length album in 2019. It was called Schlagenheim, which is a made-up word, apparently, that just sounds weird, which is the black MIDI aesthetic, I think, in a nutshell. They have a new record out today. It's called Cavalcade.

And this band is often lumped in with this wave of British post-punk bands that we've talked about in previous episodes that includes bands like Squid, Dry Cleaning, shame, Black Country New Road. And I feel like that is a bit of a misnomer for Black Middy because I think if you listen to some of those other bands, and I like some of those other bands quite a bit, and some of them I don't really like.

But Black Middy, to me, doesn't really sound like a post-punk band. They are, I think, a world unto themselves. There's, you know, Fusion era of Miles Davis influences here. you have like 70s Prague rock especially on this new one. I made a joke about this in my review, but like I wouldn't be surprised if these guys went through a Mars Volta phase. Oh yeah. Especially with some of their song titles. This is a record I like quite a bit.

You know, we're going to be talking next week about our favorite albums of the first half of 2021. And I would definitely put this album up there for me. and I think I like it because of the range of adventurous music influences that are on this record. I mean, they really are going all over the place in a way that I think is really unique right now. Like, there's not another band that I could really describe as being similar to Black Middy right now. I think they're in their own lane. I also appreciate the fact that to me they're one of the few bands with a significant profile in indie music that seems unafraid about irritating people.

Like, there's, there's, like, moments on this record, like, that song, John L, the, the, the, the, the, the first single, which we talked about a bit. That's, that, that, that's, that's, that's, that's the accessible one. That's, like, the banger. I guess it is, I mean, when it came out, a lot of people compared it to Primus in a somewhat joking way, although it's just, like, the beginning part that's, like, Pramace. There's, there's, like, a middle part where there's, it's, like, this ambient thing, and then they go into, like, a post-rock section in the back half. it's really all over the place. And a lot of the record is like that. It's a lot of time signature changes. I really feel like the middle of the record

is basically like a four or five song suite where one song goes into the next. But we've talked about this in other episodes. I mean, I think in the streaming platform era, the incentive to be abrasive or strange or annoying or all these things, it's non-existent because it's so easy to click off a song.

And I really appreciate that Black Middy doesn't seem concerned with that. I mean, this record, I think, is even less accessible than the first one. Yeah. They're really kind of going deep with this. I mean, are you into this band? I mean, I feel like I like them maybe more than you do.

I like Black Middy because, like, you were saying, like, I don't hear them so much as, like, a British post-punk band, you know, dissecting the absurdity. of our daily interactions. Like, they are just, like, you brought up Mars Volta. When I first got this album, you know, I was talking about it with someone who's also very much into Black Midi.

And I was like, oh, yeah, I really like their first one. And he's like, yeah, they go real Genesis, like Prague Genesis on this one. And, you know, to me, look, I don't listen to a lot of Genesis, particularly like Prague-era genesis. Like, for me, it was like, what songs that I hear on the radio? I probably heard I can't dance a lot more than advocacy. have or whatever. That being said, but like this stuff just, it, it's so challenging and inaccessible. And it, it reminds me like of, I don't know, it reminds me almost of like mid-aughts indie rock

in this, not in like in the fact they sound like arcade fire, a broken social scene, but like their first album was fun to me because it reminded me of like those hype bands from back in the day, like wilderness. Like that's going to be a real deep cut. If you know, who wilderness is. Oh, yeah. Oh, there we go. Again, the Indycast fan, they're going crazy.

Someone's head is getting like blown off of their neck right now because of that reference. These bands that would like come out of nowhere and like get like a 9.2 on pitchfork on their debut album on like Domino or 4A.D or whatever. And then you would just like clown the shit out of them on album too. But like, you know, I think what's refreshing about Black Middy, even in so much as the music just it really kind of whips ass. Like it's very complicated and, you know, abrasive in a way that's not all that dissimilar from some of the more out there, hardcore or emo or screamo that I listen to.

But it's the fact that like it's so difficult to project emotions through them, like in the same way that a lot of music happens right now. Like I would like when you look at like, and this kind of ties into the Olivia Rodriguez conversation about like what the perception of what quote unquote music writers are into and what the reality is. You look back at the past few years and even God knows that maybe even the past decade and it's really a personality driven narrative. You know, even like really unconventional challenging music like Fetch the Bolt Cutters,

for example, it doesn't sound like much else. But at the same time, it's all through the framework of Fiona Apple who everyone knows and it's very legible emotionally, and you can feel the feels with it. Black Midi is just completely impenetrable, and if you want to just like like it because the music whips and you'd think that it's completely different

than anything else out there, that's your in. You know, like I don't know if anyone emotionally connects to Black Middy, and that's refreshing to me in a way that reminds me of bands like Liars or Dear Who, or even something like battles. back in the day.

I think it's a nice relief from A, I think a lot of the top, you know, A-list indie rock sounds like, you know, Ace Hotel Lobbymuseum music these days. Yeah, I mean, it's not an autobiographical record. It's not a diaristic record. There's a, it's a theatrical record in a lot of ways. There's a song in here about Marlene. Well, yeah, I mean, there's literally a song called Marlina Dietrich on this record. We're talking about the great film star and, and, and, and, you know, it's a song. stage performer, which I'm trying to think of like another indie band that you would even think would

write a song about Marlina Dietrich in 2021. I mean, this is, they're really digging into some obscure areas on this record. But yeah, I mean, I think you make a great point about how there really isn't like a cult of personality with this band. And it seems very deliberate in that regard. Aside from the fact that like they don't have a cult of personality, they're seeing this these, like, difficult, like, artsy weirdo type people. But even, like, even compared to, like, similar artsy weirdos, like, Eves Tumor or York or, you know, Moses Sumney or whatever, there's still, like, that one person, that personality and, like, this narrative you can talk about, like, how they're deconstructing

masculinity or things of that nature. There's, like, nothing like that here. Yeah, and, you know, and this is a band, I mean, I'm curious to see what the reaction is to this album. Probably positive. Well, I mean, critically, yeah, I could see it getting good reviews. I'm just wondering commercially how this album will do because Black Midi, they did come out ahead of a lot of these other bands that have gained a foothold in the past, say, year, year and a half. And I think compared to a band like Dry Cleaning, who, by the way, I've come around on that band.

I enjoy that record. I actually like their EPs a lot. Their EPs are a little more. raw than the record, but the record I've come around on. That's a band, I mean, they sound like the poppiest band in the world compared to Black Midi. I mean, they seem way more accessible than this band. So I wonder if some of the heat will move off of them, because that first record was really hyped. And I saw them on that tour. They played a small show here. They played 7th Avenue entry, which is the side venue of 1st Avenue here in Minneapolis.

Pack to the gills. People are really excited. I just wonder if their audience is going to be people that read like guitar player magazines and their magazines. Maybe they're going to end up being, like, if we're going to talk about festivals, I don't know if this one's coming back, but like there's one in England called Arc Tantient, which is the sort of festival where like a lot of like math rock. bands, you know, like, you get like a lot of like math rock kind of like emo bands playing that

gig. Like I'm trying to think like who are the headliners for that kind of thing. It's like, you know, Opath or, you know, Rolo Tomasi or I think Swans played it one year. This will destroy you. Like you could easily see Black Nitty appealing to that type of like guitar player, straight up like nerd, like nobody moving at the festival. kind of show. I mean, in San Diego, they're playing at the Casbah, which is the same venue. I'm just looking online. It's Dan Deakin and Ice Age. Those are the kind of people that, and yeah, those are the kind of

that's the kind of level, I suppose, they're at. I mean, are they just like a hipper Mr. Bungle? Would you say Black Middy? I mean, they kind of have that. I don't know, man. It's like, oh, kind of have that feel to me a little bit, like where, and again, I like them. I'm a fan of this record. I like it a lot, but it just seems like a record that most people, even in the audience, is not going to connect with. Yeah, maybe it's like one of those bands that gets like lumped into that male manipulator music sort of joke where like you're going to get that like that meme where like the one

guy's like talking into the girl's ear at the club and like you like fill it in. it's like talking about like how like black midi is going in like 1512.5 time signature or something. Like it's going to, it might take on like a tool-esque component in the future. Right. You know what? Good for them, man. If you want to tap into the tool crowd, that one's going to sustain you for life. Well, we're definitely, I mean, it sounds like we're already making a case for putting them in the Indycast Hall of Fame here.

I mean, this sounds like totally something that we would endorse. And again, shout out to Morgan Simpson, the drummer in this band. Sick drummer. Sick, sick, sick drummer. I mean, come on. Like, how many drummers can you talk about in contemporary indie rock? I mean, there's not that many that just jump out at you like that. Seeing him, like, seeing this band live, like, he was the dude I looked at the most.

Because it's just like, I want to see what that guy's doing. I mean, I love drummers anyway. But I was like, oh, I just like want to see this guy kill it. And he did. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we want. we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So if we're going to talk about, like, I think one of the missing links in what we've been talking about this entire episode is, like,

the rise of pop punk. Like, there's a lot of pop punk on the Olivia Rodriguez album. It's kind of a main driver of a lot of, like, you know, Travis Barker is like a pop savant right now. But a lot of, like, actual pop punk, like in the trenches, pop punk is being overlooked. And I think a band that kind of embies that is Hot Mulligan. If we're talking about like Michigan emo slash punk bands, you know, like greet death, dog leg, mover shaker, bands like that. Like Hot Mulligan, as far as popularity just kind of dwarfs all of them, they are like super on the low popular. And they released an album last year called You'll Be Fine, which had like four or five incredible songs and the rest of the record was, you know, pretty good. It held sir, but it wasn't, it was kind of like that you CD sort of ratio.

they've come back with a new EP that comes out this Friday that is I Won't Reach Out to You. And, you know, they kind of toned down a little of the more grading aspects. But it's very much like a band where you can see them be like serving like a Taking Back Sunday sort of role for people. Like granted, the band's going to be seen as Taking Back Sunday years from now. It probably sounds nothing like them. but if you're into like kind of early taking back Sunday or like the wonder years but like more toned down this new EP will very much be for you they also have a song called featuring mark hoppus which that's the title of the song mark hoppus is not on it but of course mark

hoppus finds out about it and he gives a thumbs up it's a it's a five song 12 minute EP uh they're a band that's like do a little digging into hot mulligan they're like one of those band that is like low-key way more popular than you think. So and this the CP is probably the best thing they've done. So yeah, I think that this is, if you if you like the pop punk side more of Indycast core, this is a band for you. All right. Sounds good. I'm going to do a shout out to something I did. Oh. Some, some rank self-promotion here. I wrote a, uh, it was an interview I did with, with Michelle's honor of Japanese breakfast that ran on Thursday. I think it turned out really well. She's very smart person.

We ended up talking about Wilco and built a spill for a fair amount of the time. And that's something she brought up, not me. He is very smart then. Yeah, maybe she thought like, oh, I'm talking to Steve, so I have to know your audience. Feed him some stuff that he's going to like. But next week we're going to be talking about our favorite albums of the first half of 2021. So we're not going to get a chance to review the upcoming Japanese breakfast record,

which comes out on June 4th, which is Jubilee, which I. which I think is a really strong candidate for album of the year. If we're talking about albums that have come out already, to me it has the feel of like those expansive, big tent indie records that we all love from the 90s and in Otts. Like when I was talking to her, I brought up records like Arcade Fire Funeral, Bright Eyes, I'm Way to Wake It's Morning,

that second Joanna Newsom record. And she didn't say that she had those records on her mind, but she definitely saw the connection between her record in those records. It's definitely Michelle's honor embracing big, beautiful sonics. She wanted to make a big sounding record, and I think she pulled it off. It's a great record. I really love the first two Japanese breakfast albums, too, but this really feels like the album where she makes the transition

from being a critically acclaimed and much-loved kind of cult artist in the indie world to being, I think, on the A list of people that we talk about in the indie sphere. So that's a great record. I'm sad that we're not going to be reviewing it next week, but I know we'll be talking about it again because I really do feel like it is one of the Big Tent Records. Really in a, I mean, there haven't been, I think, a lot of big tent records. So, like, to me, this feels like an oasis in a desert. Yeah.

I feel like this is an album that, like, you're going to be singing on a lot of year-end list in November and December. Yeah, and moreover, like, we got to give a shout out to Japanese breakfast, like, just killing it in the festival circuit. Like, they are playing, like, everything. And you got to respect that in a way. Like, you know, strike while the iron's hot. And yeah, you're right in that it feels like kind of predestined, like,

to be one of those, like, appear, like, that taking that, like, St. Cloud slash Punisher role of, like, the number three album. them on every year end list. I mean, I think it's going to, I mean, we don't know what's coming out, obviously, for the next six months, but I think this could be a number one record. I think it definitely would be considered a top record of albums that have come out so far. Also, I mean, Michelle also happened, you know, she wrote Crying in Hmart. That book came out this year.

Yeah. Number two, number two on the New York Times bestseller list. So she's already written a hugely successful book. Now she's going to have this record come out. And I have a feeling that people are going to love it. Oh, absolutely. I would expect them to love it. So 2021, man, she's ruling this year.

Yeah, it also kind of comes back to what we were saying about like the personality driven, you know, narratives, you know, because like, regardless of like what you think about like the music or the books, it's like this is someone you want to root for. Like this like, like it helps that the record is good. But at the same time, like you could look at this a mile away. It's like, yeah, this is going to be like one of the big ones. Well, and we talk about this in my piece, but, you know, Michelle, I mean, she kicked around for a long time. Shout's a little big league. That's a good game.

You know, so she wasn't this overnight sensation. I mean, she had to, she had to, you know, go through a lot of trials and tribulations for a long time to get to the position where she's at. And I don't know, she just strikes me as like a really talented, hardworking person. She did, you know, she obviously wrote this book. She has this record. She's like directed all of the music videos for the singles from Jubilee. So I don't know. She just does a lot of different things. It seems like she does a lot of different things really well. Yeah. So hats off to her.

And I'm sure we'll talk about Jubilee more in the future. But yeah, it's a great record. That book is really good. You know, she's killing in 2021. So good for her. Could be the Phoebe Bridgers of 2021 as far as like, you know, multimedia, you know, saturation in the indie world. Like, you know, but she deserves it.

Also shout to that. I think the first Japanese breakfast song was like a split with foxing back in 2011. There you go. Search out that EP. It's like it's Adam Sandler and Uncut Gems. This is history right here. That's awesome. Well, we're out of time for this episode of Indycast.

So thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com. backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.