Indiecast - Revisiting The Albums Of 2013

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

This week Steven and Ian reach back to a momentous year in music and both of their lives: 2013. One man discovered the joys of Phish and jam bands that year. And the other man fell hard for the burgeoning emo revival. Somehow, they both managed to also listen to music that wasn't Phish or emo. And we discuss a lot of that music in this episode.Before we get to that, the guys talk about the upcoming tour pairing emo legends The Hotelier with Foxing, which is a big deal in Ian's world. But will audiences turn out? They also answer a listener question about The Idol in comparison to another poorly reviewed HBO show about the music business, Vinyl (11:01). Steven has seen both shows and he has some thoughts. (Also, the conversation also drifts back to Tulsa King, as it often does on this show.)Finally, Steven and Ian get to 2013 (21:56). Our categories include "Most 2023 Album Released In 2013" and "Most 2013 Album Released In 2013" along with more straightforward fare like "Most Underrated." They also try to figure out if there's a difference between the "best" and "favorite" albums for the year.In Recommendation Corner (1:02:14), Ian goes to bat for hardcore favorites Militarie Gun while Steven praises U.K. singer-songwriter Hamish Hawk.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 144 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, we review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the albums of 2013. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He will be following the hotel year, Foxing Tour like it's the emo Grateful Dead. Ian Cohen, Ian, Ian, how are you?

I promise I've spent all morning trying to come up with a joke for the equivalent of like getting recognized in the parking lot and being offered with it for the emo revival. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's like being handed to Yerba Mata or something like that. I do nitrous, do a nitrous truck show up at emo shows? Is that like a thing? I mean, like the nitrous mafia?

Yeah, because that's a big thing in the jam world. No. It's funny because like, you know, because we're Tulsa King fans. There was like a nitrous mafia subplias. plot on Tulsa King, which is how you know that's, that's, uh, that's arrived. Like, do you know what I'm talking about? Like, like, you, like, the show ends and these people show up with tanks and you pay like 10, 15 bucks and like you suck on the hose for like a little bit or, or you, like, inhale, like, from a balloon. And, like, you're just totally going crazy for about, you know,

I don't know how long, like, not that long. I've not huffed myself, but like, I've, I've, I've walked over bodies of people who have been helping. Oh, geez. Does that happen in the emo world? Is there any equivalent to that? The emo world is like highly like drug and alcohol free. You know, the shows are, I mean, they kind of have to be given that with the younger audience. They got, they, they have to find shows to do like all ages.

I mean, that's obviously not the case with this particular one. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe there's going to be, maybe, maybe emo sixth wave is going to be riding on a wave of nitrous. But yeah, I'm familiar enough with that subplot of the Tulsa King, which it's a phenomenal subplot. Their whole treatment of drugs on that show is just so written from the perspective of like someone who might live in Sylvester Stallone's brain in 2023. But they were ahead of the curve on nitrous, though. I haven't seen that brought up as a plot point on any prestige TV show. So I will give them credit for that, like the nitrous thing.

That is like a real thing out in the world. And I don't know. There needs to be like a sopranos of nitrous, I think. You know, like organized crime, but it's nitrous. Like that's just such a dirty topic that's appropriate, I think, for 2023. Yeah. We're really setting the course for 2024 prestige TV. I just want to be very clear here.

Are you saying that the Tulsa King is prestige TV or that nitrous is just something that prestige TV won't touch. Like, that's the dividing line between... You know, I think it is because of Taylor Sheridan's involvement. You know, he is one of the big TV kingpins. I mean, Yellowstone, is that a prestige TV show? I don't think so. I don't know.

I mean, we're at a point now where prestige TV is so degraded. I don't really know how to define it. Like, how do we define it? Is it like something that's on HBO? That, for sure, is prestige TV. but like is FX still prestige TV at this point? That's a great question. Maybe maybe we go into like TV cast with that one.

But I think that like I think it's like calling Yellowstone prestige TV if we're going to like circle back and like make it relevant to the show, which I do believe we can. Because look, I would love to talk about Yellowstone Tulsa King. But it's sort of like calling like the 1975 or Vampire Weekend indie rock in that it still feels kind of true. even if it's not technically true. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's really interesting that we have this hotel year foxing tour, which is totally up your alley, and yet I was able to redirect it to Tulsa.

Well, you know, like I figured you had like a good five, ten minutes on this tour. I mean, it's an anniversary tour. This is like the hotel year coming back. When was the last time they toured? I mean, it's like when goodness came out, that would be, what was that? 2016. So, like, they haven't toured since then, right?

I think they might have done some touring into 2017, perhaps, and they came back a few years ago for the counterintuitive records. Like, they had a day-long festival in Boston, like Oso Oso played, Prince Daddy and the Hyena and so forth. But they haven't toured since, like, 2016, I think, or 17. The last time I saw in play was at Pitchfork Festival 2016. and I think they did in 2016 an opening run for Jimmy Eat World. But yeah, they've not been around for a while.

I've shown no real interest in, you know, making new music, Christians in a totally different place in their lives. And this, yeah, it's interesting because this is like a joint anniversary tour. Foxing's The Albatross came out in late 2013. And, you know, I've known about this happening for probably a few months now, which is probably why. you know, the iron's not hot, so to speak. And I've just got like kind of mixed feelings about it in general. Like, look, I'm going to be there. Like, I might go to every show in Southern California.

But, you know, like this past week, it was also the 10th anniversary of The World is a Beautiful Place and I'm no longer afraid to dies whenever with F ever. Shout to Patrick Lyons at Stereo Gum. And, you know, he mentioned how when the review ran at Pitchcock. Fork like two months after that album dropped. It was like a 7.8 in the B or C slot and that was like super important apparently. Like I always suspected it, but like I never quite saw it from an outside perspective. And, you know, I guess that kind of plays into the clearly unhealthy personal investment I have in seeing, you know, these bands succeed, which by and large on a commercial level, they

haven't. Like the only reason this anniversary tour can happen is because it's a joint tour. Like, I don't think Foxing or the hotel year on their own could, you know, demand that that kind of audience. Like, as a co-headliner, they're playing the same venue that Sunday Day real estate did in San Diego. And so, I don't know. Like, I'm, like, excited. I'm happy that, you know, they're finally getting a bag. But, like, when I go to that show, I'm going to be, like, super nervous about the crowd.

It's like, uh, did people really, like, like this music? Are people still listening to this music? I mean, I'm sure they will. it always ends up okay but like you're worried that people aren't going to show up like yeah like i'm worried that like this music that i cared so much about and like that i spent so much of my like uh you know if we're going to talk about 2013 that's the year i kind of pivoted towards like covering emo for the most part and it's like i just hope for these bands sake that like when they come out there's excitement about it you know there's excitement online of course

but I've always been just a little bit unsure about how much people in real life vibe with this music. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because we're going to be talking about the albums of 2013. And I wrote a column this week for Up Rocks where I ranked the 30 Best Records of 2013. and I tried to obviously talk about my favorites, but leaven that a little bit with what seems important in retrospect. And I have to say, I didn't put either one of these records in my top 30. And I think you could make the case that maybe I should have put the hotel year.

Well, that came out in 2014, so you're off the hook there. I mean, because like the Foxing record, I don't think of that as like their best record. It's not. It's not. And here's the interesting part. It's like the one that, the most Foxing fans are into.

And, you know, the band has talked about many a time that, how difficult it is for them to evolve past songs like Rory and the Medic, which are like they're by far most popular songs. But, like, songs I don't really like that much. And I've told them, like, I don't really like The Medic. They got to play that every show, though. I mean, they wrote it when they were teens. And, you know, with Foxing and The World is,

and like a lot of bands in this realm, there's this circumstance where they make these very popular or beloved songs when they're like 18 or whatever. And the fans glom onto that. And by the time they've evolved into something more interesting, that fan base has moved on. And they've not been really absorbed by like the indie sphere. So they're kind of maroon.

The hotel year never really had to deal with that because they stopped making music in 2016. But like a lot of these bands who did keep going, they just sort of plateaued, even though they've made better music. Yeah, it'll be interesting. I think at the shows that you're at, they're going to do fine. Oh, yeah.

I mean, California will be fine. They're actually playing in Minneapolis before they get to you. Because it looks like they're doing dates in November and in February. It's like two different things. And they're playing here in November. And I don't know how often either one of those bands have played here. Like, Foxing, I know, hasn't really headlined here. very much. They played here with Manchester Orchestra.

But, like, you know, I've lived here since 2015, and I don't, I'm pretty sure, like, they didn't really ever come here, you know, in the back half of the 2010s. And the same with the Hotel Year. Like, if Hotel Year played here, it was probably a room like 7th Street entry, which is, like, 150 people or so. So, yeah, it'll be interesting. I don't know. I mean, these things are always hard to measure, because the people who love these bands are very vocal about it. And that can be distorting in terms of how popular they actually are. But I don't know.

I mean, I get the feeling that there's probably going to be like a lot of younger people who have heard about these bands, or especially hotel year. You know, and they're going to look at this as their opportunity to see them. So they might get a lot of that audience. Like I could see a lot of 14-year-olds, 15-year-olds, 16-year-olds showing up. Circle of Life. Who read the Ian Cohen when they were in grade school, the Ian Cohen review, and now they can go see the band for real.

Let's get to our mailbag segment here. We want to go through this relatively quickly because we got a lot to talk about with 2013, a very interesting music year. You want to read our letter here, Ian? Yeah, absolutely. So our mailbag question comes from Matthew from Libertyville, Illinois, and I know that city because I remember reading that Tom Morello and Adam Jones from Toll went to high school there. That's the only reason I know Libertyville.

Oh, wow. Yeah, Matthew, Libertyville, hell of an Indycast town. That's a Chicago suburb, I believe. It is. And Matthew, hey, hi, guys, Matthew from the northern suburbs of Chicago here. So true indeed. All the dreadful reviews of HBO's new show, The Idol, remind me of another fictional HBO, quote, rock show, if you want to call it, that vinyl.

Like the Idol, if I remember correctly, it was also pretty poorly reviewed, although not as negatively and for different reasons. Did either of you watch it, it's one and only season, and did you enjoy it? I found it very entertaining, despite all the cliches slash ridiculous plot lines. Definitely a guilty pleasure for me,

though maybe it's just I like Bobby Connaval, Ray Romano, pretty much anything that takes place in the 70s era rock and roll setting, whether it be fictional or real. So thank you for your email. here, Matthew. Matthew was asking if I watched a show that involved Martin Scorsese

and Terrence Winter from the Sopranos set in 70s, New York about basically classic rock and the record industry. Of course I watched this show. The show came out. I believe it was 2016. That sounds about right. Maybe 2017.

And like Matthew says, it was on for one season. I don't remember if I watched the entire. season, but I definitely watched multiple episodes. And it was terrible. It was a really bad show. And the thing

that was bad about vinyl that I think is actually good about the idol is that on vinyl, the idea is to show like how fucking awesome this world is and how fucking cool

Bobby Carnival and they really stack the deck in his favor. Like, basically, like, Bobby Carnival, he plays this, um,

like, record label guy. And he... Hold on. See, I think you need to say what this guy's name is on the show.

Oh, do you know it? I don't know. I'm looking at it. It's like, Richie Finstra. Like, that's a really great 70s rock name.

Richie. Richie. He's playing Richie. And, um, basically he's, like, responsible for discovering,

like, every significant fan of, of, of, era. Like, I think they connect him to, like, the Velvet Underground and the New York Dolls, and you know, he's, you know, shooting pool

with, like, Sid Vicious or something. I mean, I made that part up, but it's like, it's like a lot of stuff like that. And it just becomes, like, really tiresome to watch. Like, if you're watching a show about how, like, fucking cool somebody is, I just don't think that works for a TV show. The strength of the

idol is that it's showing, like, how craving in and awful the pop music world is. And I just think that's like a better strategy to take. Like, I think in anything music related, if you're in a fictional, you know, setting, and you have to show something that's great, I think that is always really hard to do.

It's always easier to show something that's bad, I think. And that's the strength of the idol. And I have to say, you know, the idol is better than vinyl, okay? That's not high praise, but it is better than vinyl. Put that on the fucking trailer. Like, better than vinyl, Stephen Hyden and Uprox. It is better than vinyl.

I've only seen one episode. I don't know if you've seen the show you. I've only seen one episode. There's been three, I think, so far. Yeah. And, you know, it looks good. It's, like, well shot. The cast is, like, really good.

You know, Jane Adams, in particular, plays this record executive who's, like, really cynical and kind of evil, and she's pretty funny. on the show. The weird thing about the idol is that the weekend is like so non-charismatic on the show. And

you know, people have like said he's a bad actor. I'm going to withhold judgment on that. I wonder like because he's playing this creepy character. So he's not supposed to be like a likable guy. And I just wonder like maybe he's an amazing actor because maybe the weekend actually has

all this magnetism, which you would assume because he's a big pop star. And he's such a good actor that he's able to, like, restrain that for the sake of this role. And maybe that's going to pay off down the road. I don't know. I don't know. I don't hate it as much as a lot of people seem to. I think it's a pretty watchable show, at least based on the first episode. But, you know, having said that I haven't felt strongly compelled to watch the next two yet. I mean, I think I'll do that, but maybe I won't. I don't know. Have you seen any of this yet? No, I've only watched, like, clips of this show, and this leads me to believe that, you know, for all, for as much as this show is just getting slammed in the press for various, and, you know, what seem like very valid

reasons, it makes me think that, like, the weekend is kind of the photo negative of Harry Styles. Like, I think it would be fair to call those two the biggest pop stars, or biggest male pop stars going and that they're like kind of boring and dumb but for equal and opposite reasons. Like the weekend is just kind of very boring in his portrayal of like, you know, sex craze debauchery. Like he has just like very basic ideas about like what's dark and like what's, you know, sexy and what's like, you know, living on the edge. I remember, I remember we're not going to somehow talk about Kissland in this 2013 episode, which I thought that guy was cooked at that.

album. But I remember seeing him on tour. And it was just like he showed a lot of like, you know, Japanese porn while he played or whatever. And it's just like, it seemed like he was trying to make a point, but I just think he wanted to watch porn while he performed. And I think that's sort of the idol. And I guess Sam Levinson in, you know, kind of a nutshell there, where they, I think the issue with the idol is that it thinks it's a lot smarter than it really is. It's like trying to make a point about society. You know, the same way, like, Euphoria wants to make a point about society, but anything you hear about Sam Levinson, it's more just he wants to see Sidney-Topoulos as much as possible.

And I think this kind of gets until, like, why, when it comes to, you know, television or movies about the music industry or just about, like, the process of being in a band, you either need to go, like, full-on documentary or mockumentary, because, like, otherwise you have these you have this dissonance with reality, which makes it impossible to focus on anything else. That happened a lot with the little I've seen of Daisy Jones in the 6th. You mentioned this with like vinyl, how you, like, they'll have like one guy who's responsible for signing the Velvet Underground. And, you know, he also discovered the New York dolls.

And, you know, similarly with like Daisy Jones and the 6, it's like, oh, by the way, like, we rejiggered this. So, like, their best friends somehow invents disco in New York City. And so for, I mean, maybe that's like entertaining if like you're not like us and you don't have like super granular knowledge about how the music industry actually works. But yeah. And also I don't know about like I've heard the songs on the idol and this gets to something that really, really I can't get past in most TV shows or movies about the music industry. It's that they show like an artist who's supposed to be like super popular and is soon to be awesome. I mean, it's just like the shittiest music imaginable.

Like, drive shaft, visiting day. You get that sort of effect where it's like, this music, like, it's supposed to suck, right? Like, I'm not supposed to believe this is good. That's what I was trying to get at before. The problem with any TV show or movie about a band is, you know, talking about Daisy Jones and the Six. Like, you watch that show and you're like, okay, this isn't Stevie Nix. You know, like, this actress playing a Stevie Nix type character, like, she's not as good as Stevie Nix at being a rock star.

So there's just a disconnect that instantly happens if, like, the person in the show or movie is supposed to be great. But if there's someone who's, like, trying to be great and they're failing, that's a much easier bar to clear. You know, like, if you're trying to be Stevie Nix and you're failing and you can make it about, you know, trying to be successful and but just not having the talent or the charisma to do it, like, you can portray that. But it's really hard to portray a great musician or a great athlete authentically in a movie or TV show. I mean, that's why the movie Air, when that came out, like, they don't show Michael Jordan. Because if they did, it would instantly fall apart. You'd be like, that's not fucking Michael Jordan. I know who Michael Jordan is.

Yeah. You know, like, so they just show the back of his head and they take him out of the center of the story. That's what you have to do. It's like walk hard is a good. great music movie because he's not Johnny Cash and we're not supposed to believe he's Johnny Cash. He's a buffoonish character who's making fun of the cliches of these type of movies. That's why it works. But if you're trying to like recreate something that's great and you want the audience to think

it's great, it just never works. You can't pull that off. Almost famous, I think, did a good job with that and that like the band in that movie, Stillwater. Yeah. Like, they're, like, kind of an average band. Like, they're not, like, fever dog is not supposed to be a great song, you know? And it's authentic for that reason.

If the idea was, oh, this band is as good as Led Zeppelin, it'd be like, okay, they're not. Yeah. But if they're as good as, like, Fog Hat, it's like, okay, I can buy that, you know? Yeah, I don't know if, like, fever dogs is as good as slow ride. That's true. Yeah, I mean, what is, though? I kind of slagged

Foghat there Foghat has some jams Slow ride And Tulsa King Fog hat We're like are totally renegging on our promise From last episode

To drive down The demographic age Yeah I know We did two TikTok Leads in a row And now we totally have reverted back Let's get to our main topic this week We're going to be talking about

The Albums of 2013 And like I said earlier I wrote a column this week for Up Rocks where I ranked my 30 best albums of that year. I almost said favorite, but I don't think I did strict favorites. I tried to have a wider view, although it's like 65% my favorites and 35% taking a sort of a consensus look at the year. But I want to talk about this with you.

And we're not going to rank albums. We're just kind of, we're going to look at certain categories that we've made up to talk about records from this year. a really interesting year. I mean, we've talked about this before on the show, but this feels like the beginning of the 2010s this year, like where on one hand you have this class of artists who put out their first record in 2013, or maybe like their breakthrough record, and they became the defining artists of the 2010s, talking about groups like Heim and the 1975 and Lord and Charlie X-C-X-X and all the way down the line.

And then you also had like artists that were coming out of the aughts, and now they're in the middle of their career. And like there's a lot of like fascinating flawed records that came out this year that I actually really like. And we're going to talk about that as we get into this. But I don't know. Do you have any overall thoughts on 2013? I mean, does this year stand up for you as well as like,

a really interesting year in recent music history? Well, absolutely. You know, I think that, like, 2011 is where the 2000s ended. That's when we saw, of course, the introduction of artists like, you know, Frank Ocean and, you know, the weekend. And that's when the 1975's first single came out. I think they were still known as the slowdown when sex dropped. But, yeah, 2013 is just a, I mean, that is a before and after year for me.

personally. I look back on some of the mixes I made for myself. And the first half of the year was still like, you know, all indie stuff. Like I think if we were just going off the first half, probably waking on a pretty days would be like my number one album. And then in the middle of that year, the dead

fucking center, that's when I started to learn about this little thing called emo revival. And, you know, honestly, like that, I don't want to, like, I'm not using hyperbole when I said that, like, like completely shifted my life over the past 10 years. That changed everything as far as like how I viewed

music and how I covered music and you know just what I was as a writer. So I mean that is a real like this is probably the most important year of my life as like a music writer. And the thing about it is that a lot of the records when I look back on them that came out in that, you know, emo realm, a lot of them like are not that great. Like they're good. They're important. They're important. but like I had trouble saying oh yeah like intersections by Intuit over that's a classic I mean it sort of is but it's like not something I'm going to nominate for any categories here but or the dangerous summer oh god Catholic girls that song is so fucking good um I don't I don't know if I heard any other music from that band um I just I the only thing I vaguely remember is them having beef with absolute punk which is also shout property of Zab and we cannot have a 2013 episode without mentioning that.

But yeah, this year is interesting because everything we talked about on previous episodes about like, you know, churches happening and Haim happening and like indie rock going in a more pop synthy direction is true. And like conversely, like also going into more, quote, feeling stuff music sort of thing thing is happening as well. So we have these two concurrent trends, which I think have. really dictated more or less everything in the time since. You know, when you were talking about in the middle of the year making this pivot to

emo revival, it reminded me that in the middle of 2013, I had a similar pivot to jam band stuff. I wrote a column for Grantland in June of that year about fish and defending fish and making the case that they're an important band. And I think I saw fish for the first time that summer. So I had a similar thing in that year. Completely different kind of music, of course. But that really rewired my thinking and thinking about the jam world

and also just thinking about what bands do live, live recordings, and that becoming a big part of just how I listen to music. So I didn't write about that in my column because it wasn't pertinent to albums, but that isn't interesting. interesting thing that we both had these shifts in our tastes and like what we wrote about. Yeah, and both Grantland columns. I wrote about, like, there was so little emo coverage that I could actually call the Wonder Years and a great big pile of Lee's pop punk in Grantland and not get like completely trash for it. Like, I think people were just so happy to see those bands covered.

But yeah, shout to Grantland. Oh, gosh. See, and I wrote about the Wonder Years too. year and also modern baseball in the same hell yeah column um wonder years just missed the cut of my top 30 I ended up putting like the pup record in there kind of cheating that came out in Canada in 2013

which I realized but you know I have international readers we have a lot of Canadian readers you know I'll give the I'll tip my cap to them and pup just being an example of a band that really did not get covered all that much or talked about at all, like in what you want to call prestige music publications. And of course, now 10 years later seems like one of like the important bands that emerged during that period.

So they're an example of a band whose stock has gone up a lot in the past 10 years. And then there's other artists who have gone down a little bit. And we might touch on some of that as we get into this. But let's get to our categories here. Our first category is most influential or prescient album of 2013, or we're calling this the most 2023 album of 2013. And again, this is a record that, like, might have been acclaimed in 2013, but, like, now we just feel it's, like, all over the place.

Like, you could just see its fingerprints on a lot of different artists. What is your record for this category? This was a harder one to do than I anticipated because if this was like two or three years ago or like pre-pandemic, let's just say, like the obvious answer would be something like, you know, Lord's Pure Heroin or Heim, you know, days are gone. But in the, you know, especially with Lord making, you know, solar power and album that like really kind of shifted where her career was going. I feel like some of those records, like they peaked a little too. too early in their influence to, you know, celebrate them on like a 10-year anniversary show. But, you know, as I was looking back on the year endless, I kind of had to step outside of the, you know, indie or guitar-focused sphere.

And the one that stands out to me is like the one that is still going and is still, you know, is still coloring every single thing that's happening in this genre. I had to go with Earl sweatshirts Doris. This is maybe one that's been a little overshadow. shadowed by I don't like shit, I don't go outside or some rap songs, but I actually interviewed Earl sweatshirt back in 2013. I forgot about that completely. It was not a great interview. But this kind of set the trajectory, not just for like the, you know, the establishment of odd future as this critical and popular, you know, this monolith. Because I think that was

the year Tyler, the creator, put out Sherry Bomb, and it wasn't that well received. But Earl Sweacher. I think it was Wolf that year. Was it wolf? Maybe. Gosh. Yeah. Well, either way, it was like one that was just like not that well received.

But like what Doris did and I'm saying influential slash prescient, I don't know if I completely love what it did. But this set, this set the trajectory for rap to be very insular of kind of mumbly, but not like an Amigos mumble rap way. And just like removing drums from production. like when you think about all the a good deal of like the critically acclaimed rap music that comes out now

whether it's like you know Wiki or Mike or Navi or you know or not Navi sorry Mavi or like Navy Blue it gets into this kind of Earl sweatshirt like what I've seen drizzably called like pots and pans rap where it doesn't bang it's just like a guy being very thoughtful you know kind of muttering and it's very insular

and I think that kind of limits we talked about this in the Billy Woods discussion last week, who I think, you know, he predates Earl Sweathe, but kind of comes in that same sort of mode of like, you know, big event rap records, you know what I mean? Because there are a lot of event rap records that came out that year. Nothing was the same. Jesus, which we'll surely talk about.

But this one, I kind of think, got into the small, this kind of kicked off a small ball era of rap. And we're going to hear like Earl clones probably for the next 10 to 20 years. So not in a record I love that much, but I think that's got to be the choice. Yeah, this album was on my list, and I made some more points

to what you were just talking about, where it does feel like this album helped to create the blueprint for what critically acclaimed rap records were going to be in the 2010s. It seems like that's kind of like what our critics are, like if it's a record that in some way resembles Doris,

I think like that. that really set the tone for that. And it is interesting to think about odd future at this time where they come into the 2010s as, I think, like, the last stand of, like, openly provocative like pop music.

Like, where the goal is to offend people. And Tyler, the creator has, like, a little bit of that on Wolf still, like, carrying over from Goblin, you know, which was like this just think piece generating machine. I think that was 2011. that record came out.

And it is interesting to see this shift and just like what it says about pop culture in general how that kind of provocation just totally went out of style. And like we really haven't had anything like that since to that

degree. I mean, you know, we have the idol, but I don't know it's not the same thing to me as like what Odd Future was doing or like what Eminem was doing before them. but I'm going to go back to a record that you mentioned and you said peaked early I'm going to disagree with you

I think the answer is days are gone by Haim and the thing about this record is that the aesthetic of that record is so pervasive now in indie music that maybe in some ways it seems invisible you listen to days are gone

and it doesn't seem as innovative as it did at the time in terms of just taking classic rock influences and combining it with like Shania Twain, Destiny's Child, music of that nature, that was just you know, in the

not too distant past before 2013, it would have been verboten to have on anything that was considered indie or indie pop or whatever, however else you wanted to define Haim. And I just feel like if that record didn't exist, I don't

think indie music or however we're, it's so weird to describe this as indie music because it doesn't really feel like it. But like music that's covered by pitchfork and stereo gum, let's define it that way. It would sound completely different, I think, without days are gone. It's alt, it is such, I think, a building block of like indie music, pop music, just music in general in the popular sphere. So I see what you mean to a degree that maybe it's peak two. early, but I still feel like that if you just look at like what is acclaimed, what is popular, Haim is all over that still in 2023.

So to me, I think Earl's sweatshirt, that's a great answer, but I think Haim for me is still like such an important touchstone from that year on music now. Yeah, I think that you're absolutely correct in that it's like so pervasive that it becomes like almost invisible. Like I honestly think that you could actually consider like. like Daisy, something like Daisy Jones in the sixth in a very bizarre way, an extension of it, because I don't, it, it sort of felt like Fleetwood Mac was kind of understood as this, I don't know, like, consensus touchstone before 2013, but it's definitely like going forward.

Like, we're never going to have to argue for like Fleetwood Mac's place in the canon ever again. Or like Cheryl Crow or Shania Twain, you know. It was a shift in Fleetwood Mac. It wasn't rumors Fleetwood Mac. It was Tango and the Night. Right, good point. It wasn't like the 70s, like your dad's album. It was like the 80s version of it.

And that was an important shift. And we've been in that zone now for 10 years. And I kind of hope we're getting out of it because it's starting to feel a little tired. I mean, I like Days Are Gone. I think it's a really good record. And I like a lot of what it spawn. But it's been the sound for like a long time now.

it kind of feels like we need to move on to something else maybe. All right, well, let's get to our next category. And this is something, maybe it's the opposite of our first category. It's the most 2013 album of 2013. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, we're saying that this is the album that we most associate with this year. I mean, you could construe it as saying that this is the most dated album of this year. But I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

I have an answer that came to mind immediately. But I'm wondering if it aligns with yours. Like, what is your choice for this? So I really made an attempt to get like super kind of like in 2013, like what the culture meant at that time. You know, just kind of more of like a social text. But when I like take a step back and like look at like dated, I think that word always gets a bad rap because it assumes that something hasn't held up. But it also can mean that this was just so on the money in terms of what it did at the time that you can't remove it from that year. And so when 2013 was the last year I wasn't full time in school or working.

So, and this is going to sound completely crazy. I spent like a lot of time just like walking around the Glendale Galleria. I'm not sure why I did that. I think maybe it was because it was air condition and just gave me something to do. And so that means I went to a lot of clothing stores. And boy, let me tell you, the one album you could not escape in 2013 was Disclosure Settle. When I think of 2013 and like, you know, what songs were happening in clothing stores, what songs were getting synced, what was happening in terms of electronic music, you cannot get more 2013 than settle. You know, we talked about like the 10-year anniversary of that fairly recently.

It is, it may have kind of influenced music going forward in kind of a weak sauce way. But I also think it was sort of an end point for a lot of trends that were occurring at that time as well. You know, you hear that one song defeated no more from the guy from friendly fire or friendly fires. You got like a Luna George on there. You got like Sam Smith prior to being like a massive pop star. When I'm thinking of like what's going to be a two. 2013 era movie, like what the cues are going to be. You got to go with disclosure set.

Although that being said, I think that movie Zula that came out last year that had 2013 cues, they had like Migos Hannah Montana. But I don't think that's the one that really defines 2013 as much as disclosure did. So that's a really good answer. It's not my answer. My answer is, you know, we're just talking about like, like Haim, Lord, 1975, these young artists who emerged in 2013, who came to define the decade and who are still famous in 2023.

Well, there's another artist who emerged in 2013. And I would argue that there was a time where this person was bigger than all the artists we just mentioned. And in 2023, it's almost like this person is MIA. And that person is Chance the Rapper. I thought you're going to say, I thought you're going to say magical clouds. Oh, no, not magical clouds. Chance the rapper, acid rap. And, you know, I wrote about this in my column.

I think that the most telling indicator of how esteemed chance the rapper was in the mid-2010s is the fact that Donnie trumpet in the social experiment, their album surf, which does anyone remember this album? Yeah. Does anyone remember this album at all? I do. Donnie Trumpet and the social experiment was ranked number 21 on the best albums of 2015 on pitchforks list. Donnie trumpet. They had to change that name. They had to change that name, by the way.

It's only because of a chance to rap. That's how much people loved acid rap. And I just feel like that is such a remnant of like early second term Barack Obama. you know, like where you still have like a little bit of that sort of centrist enthusiasm from his first term, you know, that idea of, you know, America can be a melting pot and we're all together, you know, that enthusiasm, which of course by the end of his second term was completely gone. But it still existed a little bit in 2013. I think that album, Acid Rap, dropped like three months after the second term inauguration. I just feel like that is such a remnant of like 2013. I guess I'll expand it to like mid-2010s.

And yeah, a chance to rapper. Like, where is he now? I mean, it's, he had the wife guy thing, I guess. Yeah, but. But it just seems like he fell off a cliff. There was a time though, like where he seemed like, oh, he's, yeah, he's the, he's like the man. Like, he is like the next big thing in rap. And it did not happen.

Oh, I think, oh, it totally happened. I want to be clear. It didn't happen, but. It didn't get, it wasn't sustained. No. It was very much a product of its time. Yeah, I think even before coloring book, which I, which was, you know, the 2016 one that solidified him as, you know, a very short-lived generational talent.

I think he, like, headline pitchfork festival. And it was either 14 or 15. This was prior to coloring book. He was that big, especially in Chicago. And, um, I fucking hated. Chance the Rapper. Like, I hated his voice so fucking much. I hated the voice.

I hated the beats. I hated the kind of cloying, like churchy sort of, you know, youth counselor vibe of Chance the rapper, you know, and you're right in that it. I think coloring book might be a little more dated. I think acid rap people will look back on. People look back on that still with like good vibes. Like, yeah, you know, he was still kind of up and coming back then and the excitement was justified. Like, I feel like coloring book, that's really where, like, people are going to disown that one.

But that's a very good choice. That's a very good choice for most 2013 album. And coloring book? Can you imagine? It's called coloring book. That was the title. People were, like, comparing him to, like, Stevie Wonder for that reason. I mean.

Oh, my God. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. So our next category is very straightforward. It's Yisis, yay or nay. We're going to yay or nay Yisis. This is the album that, I think we can both agree,

that in the moment was the most exciting record to come out in 2013. It was the most fun record to write about and to talk about. And it's a record that is at least in the conversation for the best. album of 2013. I didn't put it at number one on my list for reasons that I'll get to in a moment, but obviously Kanye has had his thing in recent years, and maybe that colors how people feel about this record. So, Yis, Yer Ney, where do you fall? Or is it Kanye or Kanye? That doesn't work either way, but, so I listened to this record recently, and, you know, there'll, regardless what you think of Kanye right now. There's like a lot of music that I feel somewhat shitty listening to,

even in private. But with like Kanye or like Morrissey, like they're not, it's not like, you know, straight up sex creep stuff, which makes it very difficult for me to listen to with a clean conscience. But with this album, um, of all the Kanye records, I feel like this is the easiest one to revisit. Also the one that still maintains the same impact when I first heard it, when I play this album, and I'm going to listen to it to the gym. There's nowhere else where I'm going to listen to this album. It feels like I'm like Kevin Gates trying to start a car battery with my bare hands. And what makes this album hold up really well, in my opinion,

it's kind of counterintuitive where, like, the music of Kanye West is so exclusively about Kanye West. It's impossible to separate the art from the artist. But even up to my beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, He tried to present him as this kind of complex, even likable dude in parts. Yeez is just straight up nasty. There is like nothing redeeming about Kanye West on this album. His politics are like super like super kind of nasty. His sexual views are super nasty.

And the album itself just sounds super, super distorted. It's like 10 songs for 35 minutes. And it still sounds like the most exciting. exciting music ever made when it's actually playing. And I think people hold on to this one when they're like when they think that there's maybe some shred of hope that Kanye can make good music again because he was there like he he was every bit an asshole, like every bit like a terrible, irredeemable person on this record. But the music was still great.

And now you think to yourself, well, I don't know, maybe he's still got that in him. Because you're never going to get another late registration. any means. You're never going to get in my beautiful, dark, twisted fantasy. It's within the realm of possibility that he might just make an album so musically engrossing that it could justify the other shit, which he was doing as recently as 2013. So high yay on that. So I'm giving this album a yay as well. And I agree, when this album is on, and I'm talking about on-site, black skinhead, bound to really like the second half of the record.

It's a brilliant record, and I think it stands like with anything that came out in the 2010s. What I was reminded of revisiting the record is that there's also some real dog shit tracks on this record. And I'm going to say,

I really think, I am a god, is one of the worst songs to ever appear on a record that is considered a masterpiece. I thought you were going to go for I'm in it or something. I am a god is so fucking stupid. And it's a song that I think in the moment

you listen to and you thought kind of like what you were just saying that this is like Kanye exposing the worst side of himself unapologetically. That there was maybe some sense of like self-awareness in that song. And I just feel like he has no presumption of self-awareness anymore.

So that song is just like this idiotic expression of like petulance. Like where he is literally like doing like the Napoleon dynamite like go like into the microphone. It is so obnoxious. Like I cannot defend that song. But I still put it in my top five because on site Black Skinhead, like the best songs on that record are absolutely brilliant. But I have to single out I am a god for derision because that is a fucking horse. horrible song. I will say that it is everything you said, and that's why I think it's awesome. It's like, it's like a dumb, hardcore song. It's like, I don't, the word. Do you actually listen to it,

though, when you listen to Yeez-this? Like, when you're at the gym, are you like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, muddle through I Am a God? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not thinking, like, oh, let me, like, break this down. Like, let me break down. I'm like, make heavy thing go up. That's what I'm a God does for me. But even musically, it's not good. musically it's not good lyrically it's horrible I don't know I think that song's indefensible at this point

it's like not even funny like I think at the moment people thought like oh the croissants line boy that is dated it's so stupid it's such a stupid song but overall

I'm yay on uses let's get to our next category let's talk underrated most underrated album we're not going to do overrated because I think the overrated albums are obvious from 2013.

I mean, we talked about random access memories. You know, that's the album that everyone says is overrated. I think that is a little wrongheaded. But at the same time, that did win a ton of Grammys and topped a bunch of lists, and I don't necessarily feel like it deserved all of that. Anyway, we don't need to beat up on that record anymore. Justin Timberlake, 2020 experience. JT. is taking enough hits.

So it's skipped overrated. Let's go to underrated. What's the most underrated record of 2013 for you? Well, it's a little record that I thought you were going to bring a most overrated. It's this humble little project called Reflector by Arcade Fire. No, when it comes to underrated, this was a little tough for me to suss out. But I'm thinking of this big picture because that is the year my favorite album from a very underrated band came out. And I'm talking about No Blues by Los Campesinos.

they're an interesting thing to look at because they are massively influential and beloved in a very you know by a very select amount of people but their best we talked about this a little bit last week

about like best comeback records this would be a comeback record because I think for a little bit they were taken for granted and you know maybe seeing as like a remnant of a previous era of like quote buzzbands but no blues I think is their

end to end best record the production is just so in your face and catchy. The songs themselves very in your face and catchy. And they just kind of shed whatever remnant of like being kind of like a late aughts buzz band to just make great songs that still maintain their view of like their songs about like food and soccer and sex. That's you can you can make a career off that. So I feel like even within the Los Campesinos discography, it's a little bit underrated just because it's not the first one. But I know it'll never be on any 2013s list. I know it'll never be in any 2010s list.

So that's why I'm just giving a little special shout out to No Blues from Los Campesinos. So on my 2013 list, I wrote a lot about a kind of record that I described as a hangover record. and this is a record that I describe as coming from an established artist or band, maybe they're on their third or fourth or fifth record, they're in a dark place, and they're working through those dark vibes musically. And I feel like there were a lot of records like that in 2013. And these are albums that I would not describe as like the best albums of the year,

but they are some of my favorites, just because I really like it when a band is in the middle of their career, and they're working something out. And it's not perfect, but it's a really kind of fascinating listen. So, records that fall under this category for me that came out in 2013 include the self-titled MGMT record, Come Down Machine by the Strokes, like Clockwork by Queens of the Stone Age, and the record I'm actually going to call the most underrated for me of 2013 monomania by Deer Hunter, which I think is the definitive hangover record.

of 2013, not just for Deer Hunter, who at the time were coming off of Halcyon Digest, which I think is still regarded as like their high water mark. It was certainly the high point of their acclaim. And I don't know what that record did commercially, but I'm guessing it's the best-selling record of their career. At least it's got to be up there. I'm pretty sure it is. I would hear stories about how like the post-Halcian Digest Deeruner,

records were like not good sellers for 4 AD. Yeah. So Monomania comes after that. It's a darker record. It's noisier. It's less melodic. But it has, I think, a lot of sleazy appeal for that reason. Deer Hunter at this time, too, I think, represents something about the indie music of the

aughts and where it was at in 2013. Because I think this was the moment where you started to see a. a lot of those bands become less prominent. And they were now going to be bands that maybe people like you and I were into, but they were not going to be at the center anymore because of this new generation of people that were coming up. Monomania to me just totally represents that shift. So it's a hangover in a microsense and a hangover in a macro sense.

And I have to say, like this was a record when it came out. I think I felt like a little disappointed by it. And listening to it now, I feel like, oh, I wish there were more records like this. This would probably be like one of my favorites of the year if it came out in 2023. So yeah, this, I think that whole group of records you could make the case for being underrated. But I think monomania probably the best out of those. And I just think it's significant for a lot of different reasons. Yeah, I gave this an 8.3 best new music at Pitchfork, which for dear,

On like the deer hunter scale, that's like an abject failure. So you're right, even if it was a claim that still esteem is like a significant step down from them like running shit for real. Like it was all Bradford Cox and Panda Bear up until 2013. So I think it's not like centipede Hertz style. But nonetheless, I do think it does represent a shift away from the kingpins of laid aughts indie. So as we're getting to the end here, I want to make a distinction. We have two more categories. One is Best Album of 2013, and the other is Favorite Album of 2013.

And I made this distinction in my column, and I want to do it here, too, because I do think there's a difference between Best and Favorite. There's a record for me, for instance, that I think is basically perfect that came out this year. that it's just hard for me to deny that that's the best record. And I love the record. But there's another record that is the album I've listened to the most, and it's the one that I have the most, like, the happiest memories associated with. And it just hits me different in a more favorite kind of way,

even though if I were looking at it objectively, I wouldn't necessarily call it the best album. I think it's one of the best albums, but it's definitely my favorite. So I don't know if this distinction means anything to you, I want to find out but like do you have a best and a favorite album of 2013? I definitely think there is a distinction

between best and favorite because when it comes to the best we're talking about the albums that like were at the top of every year end list and I get you know I'm sure everyone who listens to us knows where you're kind of going with it but I tried to come up

with a distinction between best and favorite but this is very odd in that for me they're the same one. Like, this would not be the case in most years. This year it was because I can't, like, I would say that, you know, whenever, if ever, by The World is a Beautiful Place is like my favorite, but it's like, for real, my third favorite, The World is a Beautiful Place album. So I can't really say it's my favorite of the year because that to me is sunbather. It's, to me, that is the best record and it's also the one I listened to the most from that year, which is interesting because

I remember us having a discussion about how it's a really hard album to throw on, like, casually. But I found that not to be the case. Like, someday there gives me something that no other record had at that time and hasn't done since even, like, it just kind of instantly render, instantly perfected a form of music,

which is like black metal or metal with like shoegaze and post-rock textures. it perfected it and just rendered everything else that came after it, like redundant and obsolete. Like, I don't think we'll ever see another metal record elevated to that degree. It is just such a perfection of form. And emotion, like, I also joke at the time it was like the emo. It was actually the emo record of the year as well because the entire, you know, thrust of it is like, you know, George driving around the San Francisco, like, like, the upscale parts of San Francisco wishing he was like on a lawn chair next to this really rich

girl. So there's just so much longing and self-loathing in that record that it almost makes an emo by default. So I wish I had a more interesting answer, but the honest answer is that they're both sunbather. So you basically didn't look at the concept here. You're just totally punting on it. Fine. I will be the one who follows through on the concept. No, I, Sun Bay there's a great choice. It was actually my number one album of 2013 in 2013. And in 2023, it was at number 10. And that's only because for me, this is not a record I throw on really at all.

Like when I put it on, I listen to it. It's a beautiful record. It's a very, like you said, emotional, cathartic type album. I'm just not in the mood usually to listen to 10-minute black metal songs with like shoegaze guitars. But there's four-minute interludes as well, or they buy opiates. Yeah, I mean, it's a great record. It's just not something that I put on a whole lot.

For me, the best record of 2013 is Modern Vampires of the City by Vampire Weekend. And this was a record. I didn't want to put it number one going into my column because it's such an obvious answer. This is obviously a very acclaimed record. I feel like if you were to poll music critics, maybe not now, but like certainly in 2013 this would have been up there with

Yeezis and the self-titled Beyonce record. It's definitely the most acclaimed indie rock record to come out in 2013. So I didn't want to be that obvious, but you know, I was revisiting this record and I was like, it's pretty much perfect. Like the production's great, the lyrics are great, the instrumentation is great, everything is in its right place. And it's also not too perfect sound. it's like perfectly perfect within that realm.

I don't know. Comparing it to like Sunbeather, for instance, the thing that Sunbather doesn't have that modern vampires of the city does have is the lyrical element. You know, I don't know if there are lyrics on Sunbathe but I have no idea what they are. And I don't know how anyone would know what they are.

So that's an edge I'd give to Vampire Weekend there. Again, I just think it's such a well-executed record. It just fits the definition of best for me. but if I'm talking about favorite it's got to be Kurt Vile waking on a pretty days and you brought this up earlier this was your favorite before you made the emo revival pivot

it is just such a record kind of baked into baked no pun intended into my life at that moment of time I feel like it's a record I'd probably listen to almost every day for like several months that year and it's an album I still revisit

and really enjoy and I don't think it's the best record I think I put it at number five on my list but it's just a record I never tire of and it is one of just like my all-time listens like if I were to like rank my most listened to albums in the last 10 years

this would be up there maybe like with loss in the dream I mean it'd be between those two both Billy dudes making broken down sounding heartland rock I mean that's obviously where my heart is. So yeah, that's the distinction for me.

Vampire Weekend Best. Kurt Bile favorite. Love them both, though. Yeah, waking on a pretty days. Yeah, I was almost thinking that was a prescient album as well because I think even more so than Lost in the Dream, which came a year later, that predicted a kind of indie rock mainstreaming of dad rock. Like, I think that, like more people have kind of maybe integrated that than,

even though there are like extremely obvious lost in the dream, you know, ripoffs. But yeah, I know, I try, if I'm being honest, I have, like, my favorite is the best. And also, like, I feel less bad about it because, like, Sun Bay there was always, like, the number six or seven album of the year on most year end list. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, want you to go first? So today, which is Thursday, you'll be able to read it by the time this episode airs. I have a profile on military gun. If you've been following me on Twitter,

if you've been following the discourse about hardcore, punk, whatever you want to call it, you know about this record, Life Under the Gun. You've heard about the hype of them being signed by Rock Nation Management, you know, like Tuchet Amorae and so forth. And they're on Loma Vista records. So this album is super important in terms of like being a heat check for hardcore.

Like can this stuff be commercially viable after the turnstom? style effect. But it's a really good record in its own right. It's coming from like a hardcore framework. It doesn't sound like hardcore at all. Let me be very clear. They're hardcore dudes, but they're very influenced by guided by voices, by Joyce Manor, by Lemonheads, by Oasis.

And, you know, it's not a revolutionary record by any means, but it's 12 songs, 27 minutes. The songs are short. They're punchy. They have great hooks. They have rough vocals. And, yeah, there's just a lot. lot of goodwill surrounding it for now. So this is a record I kind of, as embarrassing as it sounds,

I kind of needed it to be good because, you know, this, I hate to be disappointed by something that has people excited. And I think that, you know, I think that they hit the mark here. So military gun, life front of the gun. Good record. I'm sure you, you will not, I'm not the only one talking about this record this week. So are you saying that this record's too big to fail, that like big hardcore, not this album fail? Some might argue that military gun is the picture parlor of hardcore power pop. Oh, man, that's a deep reference this week. I'm going to go with a record that actually came out in the spring,

and I only heard about it a few weeks ago after a reader named Alex on Twitter, recommended that check it out after I posted my mid-year albums list. It's an album called Angel Numbers, and it's by a UK singer-songwriter named Hamish Hawk. and this is a record that like I was digging into it a little bit this hasn't really been reviewed all that much state side and I really think it's like one of like my favorite sleeper records that have come out in 2023

and the way I would describe it is just think of like the Smiths if they had a singer that sounded like Scott Walker that's basically what this album sounds like it's really pretty anthemic jangly British pop rock with like a deep voice kind of crows trunery singer and really literate lyrics that are funny and sad at the same time.

Just like a really cool, pleasurable, like record. And I am a little surprised that it hasn't caught on because, I mean, we've seen a lot of certainly post-punk acts come over from the UK that have gotten some traction in the press over here in America. But it seems like Hamishawk has really kind of flown under the radar. So I'm going to help bring him up into the radar here. a little bit with this album. It's just really good.

Again, it came out in March, but you can still listen to it now. Still sounds as good as it did back then. Still available on streaming platforms. Yes, it is. Again, it's called Angel Numbers. It's Hamish Hawk, H-A-M-I-S-H-H-H-H-H. Look him up on your streaming service of choice. Really good record.

I'm enjoying it a lot. He's no picture parlor. He won't see him on the cover of N-M-E. I actually listened to this record as well, because I think this belongs in a category of like UK singer-songwriter art rock records that like pop up on Metacritic with like an 88 or something score

based on four reviews and I listen to it I'm like yeah, not really for me but I could see why people like it and I would see why it be up your alley. It's up my alley. If you like my picks, I think you'll like this one. So definitely check it out. All you Steve Heiden listeners out there.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.