Indiecast - RIP Brooklyn Vegan (And Online Music Media), Plus: We Answer Listener Emails (Finally!)

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

Steven and Ian open with a conversation about Brooklyn Vegan, the long-running music site that faced heavy layoffs this week, and what that says about the rapidly evolving state of online media (:50). Then they talk about the week's new releases, including albums by Ceremony, Citizen, and the Mountain Goats. (24:45). Then they (finally) open up the mailbag, and discuss listener questions about musical revisionism, yay or nay (33:43) and whether it's a good idea to check the setlist online before a show (46:48). In Recommendation Corner, Ian recommends Now It's Overhead and Steven recommends Kiwi Jr. (53:10). See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indicast is presented by Amazon Music. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we respond to emails from you, the Indycast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He liked Brooklyn Vegan when it was exclusively about vegan stuff. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

2008 to 2012 right there. Yeah, you know, that's an interesting point because you would think, Brooklyn Vegan, which was started in July of 2004. I'm reading from the Wikipedia page here. Started in July 2004 as a blog that also covered vegan food options in Brooklyn before founder and editor-in-chief Dave Levine shifted its focus to exclusively documenting the live music community in the greater New York City area. And then it was purchased as a domain, I guess earlier in the year. And then they published their first article in August. 24th, 2004, so that's 22 years ago this month. The reason we're talking about this is that

there are reports online as we record this, which I think you confirmed, you did some boots on the ground reporting. You reached out to some confidential sources, but it appears that Brooklyn Began, one of the most famous, I would say indie music websites, has been shut down this week. The end of an era, certainly, perhaps the continuation of an era of decline,

not just for music criticism or music journalism, media online, but I would say a lot of media online in general. Ian, what are your thoughts about this? Do you have any thoughts? Yeah, I don't know if it's shut down so much as gutted, because I went there right before we recorded, and if it really

is the end for Brooklyn Vegan, they'll die as they lived, which is to say posting news stories about the 20th anniversary vinyl reissue of taking back Sundays louder now. So they're going to be like spin.com basically where they just have this extended life as a zombie being passed around to different owners and people that's trying to suck any type of value out of the domain name. Is that where they're at now? I mean, it could be. We were making fun of the fact that vice, like at least the online property now, there was, they just post these articles where it's three indie albums that will impress your barista.

And it's the most insane list I've ever seen. It's Jeff Rosenstock's wee cool and dismemberment plans change. I mean, maybe I'm the barista. But yeah, I mean, it's as far as like what is happening here, did some intrepid boots on the ground reporting. And I found out stuff that isn't, like I'm going to protect my sources, even though the information isn't really confidential. It's just the sort of information that you're not going to know unless you know. go to look for it. And so I want to read something from an interview that was done in 2023. I'll read it. In 2014, they started an artist management company MDDN, whose goals are

anything but managing artists in a traditional way, but rather supporting them and navigating a tough, often manipulative industry with transparency and empathy to help them create sustainable business and longevity in their careers. So they talk about some of the bands on there, like architects, water parks, bad omens. The sort of band you. you see on Warp Tour or in the House of Blues. This is the real takeaway right here. They've invested in Icons Group FCA Project M, an institution aimed at innovating music media for the modern fan through publications such as Revolver, AP, Alternative Press, and Brooklyn Vegan. That's from an article called The Many Faces of Good Charlotte in Alternative Press, which in that paragraph is a

publication they sort of basically owned through a shell corporation. So it's, I heard this was happening at alternative press and revolver too. So, wait, wait, wait. So just to clarify here, because you read a lot of boring business. I think a lot of people probably fell asleep. What you're saying is, is that Brooklyn Vegan is owned by Benji and Joel Madden of Good Charlotte. Or that they at least were involved in the site for a lot, which adds another layer of preposterousness. to the story.

I should say quick, shout out of support to anyone that was laid off from this. Andrew Socker, the editor over there, who we know a bit. He has a book coming out on email, I think,

I don't know if it's already out or if it's on the way to be, on the way to going out. But yeah, they had its first preview chapter released. And it's a, it's funny. It's a chapter that has like,

it covers a lot of like the writing I've done. But it's, This book comes out, I believe, September 8th, and we're definitely going to talk about it because it's a good book. It's about an area we're interested in it. And plus you and I are mentioning it quite a bit. And that's the same day my book comes out, actually. Is this it? So you can buy a couple music books that day.

But shout out to Andrew Soccer. You know, it's one of those things where when this happens, I always want to offer, you know, my support, my condolences. I also want to say, I'm sure on something. level, anyone who works in media now, if you're working for a company at this point, I would imagine that you are anticipating something like this happening at some point. And if we get into the details of who owns this company and I'm sure that they're stupid, you know, the good Charlotte people, I'm sure they're imbeciles, I'm sure they mismanaged, I'm sure there's a lot of that stuff going on in the background.

But there's also like a macro issue going on with online media and we've talked about it on the show. I remember at the end of 2025. I said that I feel like the days of the ad-supported text-based website that's free is over, or we are on the way out. I think this is another harpinger of that. You know, we just live in a world now where the architecture of the internet makes it impossible to exist under the old way of doing business that you and I came up in. I made a living doing this for a very long time, running for websites that where the idea was we're going to get a ton of traffic and we're then going to parlay those numbers into selling ads that people, you could sell the space around the articles that get all the traffic and that's going to be our business model. And I just want to say, I don't think that ever worked. Because now that we're exiting this period, because look, we're now in an era now where if you're going to survive, you need a paywall.

You need some sort of subscription, reader support to exist if you are only subsisting on ad dollars and not just in music writing. This is true everywhere. You're not going to survive. And this idea that we had for a long time that we're going to get a ton of traffic, and Brooklyn Vegan got a lot of traffic for a long time. It was one of the top indie music news websites. You would see links to their stuff all the time.

They had a very active comment section. They were notoriously mean in the comment section. I would say Brooklyn Vegan and the AB Club where I used to work, those were the two probably best known comment sections, at least in the music pop culture website world. They got a lot of traffic for a long time. It's a very well-known site. But, you know, it's one of those things where Google search doesn't work anymore for these sites.

You can't share links really on social media and expect to get any kind of traction. AI has eaten up a lot of the real estate in terms of searching and where you find links. And add dollars have evaporated with that. It's just the way this world is. And there's probably going to be other sites that follow Brooklyn Vegan not too far from now. And again, I'm sure the management at these places is also bad. But there's this larger trend that can't be avoided.

And I mean, I was thinking about this. The only time that there was like a ton of money, it felt like in online media was the 2010s. That's where you saw BuzzFeed and Vice, you know, building these huge offices. You know, they're buying up blocks in Williamsburg. They're knocking down businesses. They're going to, you know, take over

and they're going to become like the New New York Times. You know, there was that famous documentary with Shane Smith, and he was going back and forth with David Car, New York Times and Shane Smith was acting kind of smug and he was lecturing to David Carr about how the New York Times should operate, how they should be a business and all the things that they were doing wrong journalistically. And within a decade of that, the New York Times was stronger than ever and Vice had collapsed. And the reason why is that the New York Times started charging for their content in the late 2000s. And Vice was the epitome of this world where you sell ads and you take a ton of

VC money and that's how you build your business and it doesn't work. I feel like now you're starting to see people revert to this very old-fashioned idea from the 20th century where if you want a newspaper or you want a magazine, you subscribe to it and then it's delivered to your doorstep or your mailbox. That's the way media worked for decades in the 20th century and they made millions upon millions upon millions of dollars doing that. Then we had this blip in the 21st century where people were like, we don't have to charge, we'll just get a ton of eyeballs, and then we'll sell ads, and that will somehow, you know, make our business work.

I mean, Ben Smith wrote a great book about this called Traffic. Have you read that book? Yeah, I read that book, man. That was like, that was a real, yeah. It's essential. It's essential reading if you want to understand this period. But that's one of the takeaways of that book. that this idea that you could just have a free ad-supported site and monetize eyeballs,

it doesn't work because this passive consumption where you just have things put in your social media feed, it doesn't build an audience. The way you build an audience is by saying to people, if you want my stuff, you need to invest in it, then you care about it, then you're going to look for it. It's going to mean something to you. And I think this is a part of that. And there's going to be other examples. of this, I think, and we're going to be seeing more and more of them until there aren't any more

sites like this. Yeah, I mean, traffic was a, I had like mixed feelings while reading it because, like, a lot of the people in that book, like you were talking about, like, with vice, they are not the most sympathetic people. And at the same time, it's like, yeah, there was money there. I mean, there was money there. I don't know if we were getting it, but it was more along the lines of, like, yeah, I'll pay you $200 to review car seat headrest live. And, you know, Brooklyn Vegan is one, that I hate to see Go because I think we were on a similar timeline from like, you know, bitchy hipster runoff era to earnest emo coverage era. This is probably an extinction level event for mainstream emo coverage.

And by mainstream, I mean coverage by sites that review stuff other than emo or punk, you know? In this form. Yes, in this form. Because you're going to have people on YouTube doing it. You're going to have people writing newsletters about it. You know, whenever people say, well, this is the end. of music. No, it's the end of this form of it. Yeah. But there were other things before this and there'll be other things after it. And again, I think that this blip, because you talk about, well, there was money there. But, you know, the thing is, is that the Shane Smith were hoovering up. Yeah. 99% of that money. Like it was, and the minute that the money, Spigot was turned off, the writers got dumped over the side. You know, like this era, I have mixed feelings about it, but I don't have a lot. I don't have a lot of. of romantic feelings about it. I don't feel good about it for the business angle of it,

because I do think, you know, I romanticized that there were all these outlets that you could go to, you know, that there were dozens of places that you could read about music. That is great. And I wish that still existed. But the underpinnings of it, like the business model of it, I think was fatally flawed from the beginning. And I don't think it was good for writers. I think it was bad for writers monetarily, even if you were getting these nominal fees for what you were getting, I think it was not ever what the writing was actually worth. No. Because to me, these sites, I always felt like writers at these sites were never treated

as part of the money-making apparatus. The salespeople were treated as the money drivers because they were at the point of sale. They would go to advertisers and they would say, this is what we're charging, this is what you pay, and they would get a check. And then they would actually get a percentage of that check, and they were part of the success of the site. If the site did well, they made more money. Whereas if you're a writer, you're getting a salary. It doesn't matter if the site is doing better than what your salary is.

It certainly matters if your salary is better than what the site is doing. The minute the site is doing poorly, business-wise, you're going to get fired. but if it's doing better you're not necessarily going to make more money. So it wasn't good for writers and also it was bad for writers in that in order to get the traffic, you had to put yourself in the firing line of like insane people all the time on social media. Like the worst, like the best thing that could happen to your article is that it could go viral.

But it was also the worst thing that could happen because that's when once you have something that goes viral, that's when you start getting all the screenshots of things in your article that are taken out of context, you're being dunked on by all these people, and it's like, oh, I guess this means it's successful because a lot of people hate it. Yeah. But I'm also feeling anxiety for days on end because I'm being roasted every time I go on this thing that I hate, but I have to be here in order to make a living. You know, being freed of that, I feel very, that I think is a positive.

positive in the long run. I think about all the times between, and by the way, there is an article right now on Pitchfork that says News Brooklyn Vegan alt-press hit with mass layoff. Okay. All right. And emails to Brooklyn Vegan staffers with the exception of founder Dave Levine bounced back. So, yeah, I mean, I remember, God, so many times between, let's say, 2013 and 2015, where I was like going back to school and I would be in class or what have you.

I would see the exact phenomenon you would talk about, like these pieces of articles being posted out of context or a panicked publicist texting me saying, you can't say that in the, like, they didn't know it was off the record. Like, I don't miss that. I don't think there used to be a day where there used to be a time where there was like a main character on music writer Twitter every single day. Oh yeah, for sure. For sure.

I can't remember the last, I mean. It was never for a good reason. No, never, never. It's like, I would be giving people advice. It's like, hey, man, it's your day over the barrel. Here's how I dealt with it. Yeah, yeah, and it was always just, yeah, just curl up in a ball and wait for them to move on. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, they'll eventually get sick of it and then they'll move on to somebody else. That was always the advice. And it's really the only advice you can give because you can't explain yourself and you can't, you know, be snarky back because any acknowledgement of it just makes it worse. which is a rule that I've broken for myself many, many, many, many times because the short-term thrill of getting a burn back at somebody is irresistible to me, even though I know in the long run it's going to be bad for me. Yeah, my line kicks. I mean, you might want to watch that movie again because I don't think that that's,

it was definitely not romantic about those times and now it seems even more poignant. Yeah, I mean, you know, again, I do miss the the robust, environment of it. And I think when we romanticized that period, that's the part that we miss. That there were tons of sites. It seemed like things were more open. It just felt like more of a conversation. It feels much more isolated now than it did then. And so that part I miss. I mean, I was thinking about this with Brooklyn Vegan and also the AB Club that, you know, they had these crazy comment sections where

the AV club I think was more nuanced. There were parts of it that I think were really thoughtful and funny and great for the site. But then you did also have this element that I think was not good for the site. And I actually think that the editors there

catered a little bit too much to that element to it of the site and it made the site worse in some ways because it was good for our traffic to have all these people coming back. for the comment section. But I think one good thing about the comment sections back then is that it was a designated place where all the crazy people would congregate.

And it was like almost like a jail that they would check into voluntarily. Whereas now they're all just on the loose on social media. You know, it was nice to have that area for them back then. Yeah, I saw this one of my favorite metaphors of the past several years, this writer, John Semley, he was talking about the Odyssey and how there were all these like right-wing weirdos saying it was going to bomb. And that like Twitter and I guess the Brooklyn Vegan comment section or the AB Club comment section is like on the Simpsons where Marge made Homer like a special cake to ruin so that

he wouldn't ruin like Maggie's actual birthday cake. I feel like that's the sort of thing people need in so many walks of life, whether politics, sports, music writing. Just you need a cake to ruin, you need a special cake to ruin so that you don't mess up where the real people are. I mean, it's sort of happening now with social media platforms where you know, okay, Facebook is where all the boomers are. Right. Blue Sky is where all of the like most pedantic liberal people are. Yeah.

I guess Twitter now, as much as I hate to, because I'm on this platform, sadly, what is that like the crazy right wing platform now? with like some normal people. It's like grifter's AI. Porn. Porn. And like, yeah, like weird video. Like just like repurpose videos like where you see Matt Damon telling the story about how Goodwill hunting got made.

You just get that video like 27 times in your feed. So just a lot of slop with like right wing crazy people. And then threads is just for psychos. Yeah. That's where you know you have a social media addiction. if you're also on threads. It's like, what are we doing here? Like, who are you even talking to on threads?

You know, even Instagram, not as nice as it used to be. A lot of cranky people on Instagram, you'll just post, you know, your, you know, you post something about, like, your strokes review or something. And then you get immediate angry people in your, I thought this was the chill, like, cool place. But I don't know, even that place has been ruined. Yeah, I think LinkedIn's. pretty much the only pure social media place left because you know that people are being authentic about their business grinds that posting. That's true. That's true. Let's pivot away from Brooklyn Vegan here. I want to make a quick plug for some of our Amazon exclusives. We actually recorded a

Hall of Fame episode a few weeks ago was that. I think it was back in June. No, it was in July. No, I was July. We're doing once a month. And I think it was like one of those situations where it's like, oh shit, it's the end of July, we should do one of these. Which, you know, it's fun to do. So we got it up there. We're still, I think we're still getting in the rhythm of some of our Amazon exclusives. But we recorded an IndyCast Hall of Fame episode. It went up last month.

So go check that out, available only on Amazon Music. I'm actually going to New York this week. We're recording this episode on Wednesday. I'm flying out Wednesday night. and I'm going to be doing a couple of interviews for future indie cast episodes, two artist interviews that I'll be excited to share about artists with albums coming out in the next month. That's going to be really cool. And presumably that will be up barely soon after I get back. So sometime maybe in mid-August for those episodes.

But yeah, we're doing more interviews. Of course, Ian, you were the first one to do an interview. the first artist interview in Indycast history you did with Ben Gibbard. Was that like in May? Yes, that was in May because I did it like immediately after I got back from my vacation in Alabama. I'm like, yeah, whatever, I'll do it. Like I'll get, I'll be able to power through that. And I did the drive up to L.A., did the interview.

And I thought it turned out great. It's a pretty cool clip to show some of my coworkers who, they're like, oh yeah, I love that you are a tourist in high school, or it's like I was 12 and I will follow you into the dark game out. It's like, yeah, it's like, wait a minute, how do you know Ben Giverd? I'm like, then you got to like, then I got to explain like, you know, hey, I run a podcast and it's one that is sponsored by Amazon. It's a very easy way to explain to, you know, my co-workers, what it is I do here. See, I like that you have this Spider-Man, like alter-eas. with your coworkers where you're a mild-mannered dietitian and then you have this side thing where

they realize, oh wait, he's actually, you're not fighting crime. You are discussing indie rock music on a semi-popular podcast. It's a great thing. The one they always bring up is that I interviewed Migos back in like 2015. It was the worst interview I've ever done. It was on a conference call. Oh, man. It was unusable.

it never got published. They were so unprepared. It was impossible to hear them. But they enjoyed the fact that I did interview Migos back in like 2015 for a pitchfork column. I think it was like, yeah, I can't remember which one. But yeah, that was, that's the one they always remember. Why? I always wonder this with publicists where, and maybe they have their hands tied.

They're just trying to deal with their artists who aren't very accommodating with media. but like why even set up that interview? In what scenario was, was you Ian Cohen talking to Migos on a conference call? How was that going to end up being good for anybody? Because, you know, they want a good interview. They want this,

you know, to promote their artist. I don't understand like why they would even put you in that position. Because it's obviously going to fail going into it. They were so sorry. Like the publicist was like so sorry at the end of it. And it's, you know, like I know that with some artists,

you're like, hey, let's get them on the phone. They might be tough to get to. But yeah, that was just like, and they said something where I'm like, this is unusable right here. So it's like, they should be happy. This is not getting published. They were like, oh, let's order a pizza.

And then they call and it's actually you on the line. Like they tricked Migos into thinking that they were going to get some takeout or something. Yeah, this guy actually has activists. Well, let's. Let's talk about quick, just upcoming albums, or I guess, new releases that are out this week. Again, this is like the dog days of summer. We don't have a ton of albums coming out this week. Starting next week, things are really picking up.

August actually has a ton of high-profile releases, and that extends into September. But as far as albums that are out today, we have a new Ceremony album out, Tell Me Your Dream. I saw a ceremony live Many years ago I'm trying to remember They opened up for somebody And I can't remember Who it was

They are a Brooklyn band Right Are they from Brooklyn? I feel like they're from California Maybe they've moved to Brooklyn But like they've just been around For so very long They're from California

Like Roanert Park Because like that's the name of their album There you go Not even close Maybe they live in But no They're kind of like famous Like, you know, Rotter Park is like their big album from 2010.

And, yeah, they're from California. Yeah, so, you know, they've been around for 20 years. And a punk band, I feel like they dabbled in maybe darker, more palatable for mainstream taste, like post-punk in the middle there somewhere. You were absolutely correct. I'm trying to remember, like, what record that would have been. I'll tell you which one, because I reviewed it. Was it zoo?

No, that was, well, yes. because they had a two album run on Matador and Zhu was like where they were kind of going for more of like a garage rock sort of sound but the one you're probably thinking about where they tried to sound like Joy Division is the L-shaped man. That's it. I know that one because I reviewed it. I gave it such a terrible review. It was like a 3.3 and it's, you know, one of those. Again, we're talking about that era. They definitely read it.

They definitely like harbor feelings. And I don't blame them. Like I was really, really hard on that. but especially because the album cover looked like Kurt Van Houghton trying to draw dignity during that episode. But they're on relapse records now. They have that just, it's such a strange cul-de-sac in their career where they were trying to maybe get into indie rock. And look, this is a band that a lot of people who listen to similar stuff as I do respect. And yeah, like they're, you almost certainly saw them open for like a band that you like.

I respect what they do. I did not like that out when I reviewed it. But they're survivors. They've been around. I'm not going to listen to this, but you know. That might be an interesting exercise to think about albums from the 2010s that would be like VC money albums. Or like albums made for the VC money era of indie where you just imagine like was this album made for like Shane Smith to listen to in the back of his limousine? Probably.

I bet he loves ceremony. Exactly. Ceremony, I feel like L-shaped man would be an example of that. There's probably other records like that where, you know, it's an indie guy who now has a ton of VC money. He's living large, but he still wants to keep it real. So, you know, bands of that elk. Yeah. And they're definitely former hardcore guys.

Like, I think that's a big element of it. Yeah, you got your, maybe they got like the black flag tattoo underneath their, their, their, suit or whatever. Citizen has a new record out. Housian Blues. Citizen long-running emo band. I guess, yeah. They're like kind of in that galaxy of like post-hardcore.

They were bubble grunge, I guess you would call them. Another 2015 story. I remember posting one of their singles from everyone is going to heaven. This is like from an era where a lot of emo bands were trying to sound like in utero. The best version of that is Brand News Daisy. I posted it on Pitchfork's internal trackboard just to like take the temp because they're a band that's, you know, they were doing numbers. And I think I got the most negative reaction of just about anything I posted. They hated it so much.

They've been, they're an interesting band because they were super popular. They're like one of the big Tumblr bands. And in recent times, they've transitioned into more kind of sounded like block party. or like kind of straightforward indie rock. In the middle of it all from 2017. Good, good song. But yeah, Citizens just the band I've never really connected with. They're sort of along the lines of like a turnover, I guess.

Right. Just that. They never had like a moment. They never had like their peripheral vision. No. That one big record that. Well, some would argue that youth was that album. That came out in 2013.

And it was like, yeah, like soft grunge, I guess they would call it bubble grunge. balancing like balancing composure they're along the same lines as that but they just kept going and i've i interviewed them once they're like really cool guys they're from michigan or no they're from ohio they're from toledo ohio that was the speaking of websites that went uh under wondering sound let me interview it was a show of them fireworks modern baseball and the wonder years all together in the same green room at the house of blues that is 2014 right there Shane Smith rolling up in his limousine to that show. Do you think he showed up to that one?

I have no doubt that he didn't. Probably didn't roll up to that one. To their benefit. Or to their credit. John Carpenter has a new record out called Cathedral. John Carpenter, of course, the iconic filmmaker associated with great films from the 70s and 80s like Halloween and Escape from New York and Assault on Precinct 13 and on and on. Of course, he was also the composer for a lot of those films, composed a lot of

classic film scores and that's kind of been his thing now for a while i i interviewed john carpenter way back when i wrote for grantland and it was the same interview that john carpenter gives to everybody where he basically just talks about how much he hates filmmaking and how he just like wants to like play video games all day long and uh he's been making these albums that i think he makes with the feeling that he's going to listen to this music as he plays video games because it's instrumental, very cinematic, very much in line with the music he made for his films. I love John Carpenter. I love his attitude.

It seems like he just collects paychecks now for like whenever people want to remake one of his old movies. Seems like he's living a happy life. So God bless John Carpenter. Yeah, that rocks. Yeah, man, he's living his life. He's doing it right. Kiwi Jr. has a record out called Blown Up. I'm going to table that for now because that will be coming up later in this episode.

And then there's a new Mountain Goats record called Days. And look, Mountain Goats, a very prolific band. I feel like we both have talked about not being a huge fan of this band. I respect John Darniel. I respect him having the kind of following he has. He's an author. Seems like he's really become, he really carved out a place for himself as like a cult hero. You see him pop up on Stephen Colbert.

show when Stephen Colbert had a show. That's another show that's been gone. You know, another instance showing how widespread this is that the old media in all corners is slowly fading away. But yeah, Mountain Goats, I don't know. Is this going to be the record that turns you or I into a fan? Possibly. Who knows?

Yeah, probably not unless it's like a full remake of real estate's days. Oh, wow. We always talk about, because they're always putting out records. I think that's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, It's like a running bit just because he puts out so many records and it's like, yeah, respect him. Not really into it. Yeah. Just the voice.

The voice, I can't get past it. You know, and there's a lot of singers I like who have unconventional voices. John Darniel can't get into it. Even if I can respect the lyrics, I respect the hustle. You know, putting out an album every year. Good for you. Fans love it. God bless them.

I wish them the best. I'm trying to couch this in as much superlatives as I can because I know they're only going to focus on the negative part that we say we're not into it, but what are you going to do? Not for me, mate, not for me, as Liam Gallagher once said. I was about to say that sounds like something one of the Gallagher's would say. That's a popular meme. That's become my go-to now when I'm trying to be diplomatic about not liking something. Not for me, mate. not for me. Let's get to our mailbag finally here.

Finally. You know, every episode, we always have a mailbag part of the outline that we never get to because we end up talking too much about something else. You know, we end up talking about Noah Khan and the bathroom habits of his fans because that's the type of coverage that people demand from Indycast. But it's like Jimmy Kimmel with Matt Damon. You know, like the bit on that show that Matt Damon always gets cut out at the end of the show because all the segments run too long. That's how it is with our mailbag.

But now we're going to finally do some letters here. And we've had some of these emails for a while. We haven't gotten as many emails lately, probably because we haven't done a mailbag in a while. But if you want to hit us up, we want to do this more regularly than we have because we love hearing from our listeners. Hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. Do you want to read our first email, Ian? Yeah, I do. It's very short and to the point.

Yeah, so Lance sequestered in Memphis. Yeah, that's a whole stay. You're not the only one who can do it. Hey, guys, what musical revisionist history are you most on board with? Lance, Memphis. I love it. Very open-ended. This is a good question.

So he's asking us, he's talking about musical revisionist history. What he means is, you know, an instance where you had a band or maybe a genre of music where it felt like there was a consensus that this was good or that this was bad. And then another generation comes along and says, no, in fact, it's the opposite of what you always thought. And this is why. And that can be very exciting for people. That can also be very annoying for people, depending on where you fall, I guess, on the debate. Ian, I have a feeling I know what you might say here, but I'm curious.

Are there instances of revisionism that you are most on board with? Yeah, I mean, music revisionism is the engine of the music writing industry. I mean, like, you know, yeah, damning with faint praise now. But yeah, that's like, I can't tell you how many times I've just like lick my chops. It's like, oh yeah, this is time for the 20th anniversary for this record. I'm going to bring up all the old reviews. And, you know, that's how I'm going to hit work out. Because, I mean, you look at the past, I don't know, 15 years of my career as a music

writer and how much of that is attributable to. Def tones are awesome and they're like the modern day cure or it's okay to like emo now with some caveats. That has been the most, I don't want to say lucrative, but that has sustained my career for the past 15 years. But generally speaking, I think music revisionism is kind of a mixed bag because as nice as it is to do the reviews a second time around of fevers and mirrors and Andrew WK's I Get Wet. There's so much revisionism that you could say basically anything true. And you could say anything, it'll be true to at least someone. And you can even say stuff that isn't true just to make a larger point.

I mean, I was sort of radicalized by the pitchfork 80s and 90s albums redoes that I participated in. Just someone putting like Boys to Men's 2 on there. Like, that's not an album, you know? there's so many understandable impulses to reposition the canon with more pop and rap. But those albums are filler. Those are like a half filler, intentionally so. So I think musical revision isn't being made in bad faith. But again, we're all serfs on the content farm.

So I understand it, but I reserve my right to be annoyed by it. Yeah, you know, I would actually say that this is bigger than just music critics. Because I do think that regular people are constantly indulging in revisionism. And I often think that it's part of a larger backlash that each new generation has to the previous generation. And it might be because, oh, the previous generation was in charge of the conversation, and they were dismissing things that young people liked. And now those young people are older and they're in a position to defend that. I mean, that's probably the most common form of revisionism.

And it links up with what you were talking about with Emo. I mean, the reason why those articles resonated with people is that you had, I think, all of these younger people who read those original reviews and they were like pissed off about it when they were teenagers. And now they're in their 20s and they're in a position to do something about it. And they have a little bit more power and they can tip the scales. So I think that happens. And that's like a populist form of revisionism. And honestly, I think that any form of revisionism for it to work, it has to be, if not coming from the grassroots, it has to be supported by the grassroots. You can't just say any, you can't just be like, well, I think the Beatles are terrible. Even though people do say that, but that can't become like a predominant opinion if it doesn't resonate with a wider group of people. And I think that, scenario where it's typically music geared at a younger audience. That's the music that is most often subject to revisionism. There is also something on the opposite end where younger people start talking about older music that is really revered. And then that ends up getting toppled

by the younger generation. And this was actually a conversation that came up online that I've thought a lot about. I might actually write something about this. But John Lennon Imagine, I think, is a textbook example of a song where when I was growing up, and they did best songs of all time lists, like on radio stations, like 4th of July weekend. We're going to count down the 500 greatest songs ever. Imagine was always near the top of those lists. I would also say Don McLean's American Pie was also often at the top of these lists. And if it was a...

Hotel California as well. Hotel California, like stairway to heaven, you know, would be near the top of those lists. But I would say imagine has been singled out for a lot of ire. I think because, well, I mean, there's a lot of reasons. But I think anytime you call something the best, it is just a target for younger generations to knock it down a peg. I think that happened like with Sergeant Pepper for a long time. people are like, why is this the greatest album of all time? And I think it's always rooted in this generational rebellion.

It really boils down to, you know, screw you, mom and dad. You know, I don't have to listen to you. And this is how I'm going to act out. I'm going to say that imagine isn't the greatest song of all time. It's the worst song of all time. Now, I think you can make aesthetic arguments to sort of. support that. I mean, you could criticize the lyrics. You could say that the melodies may be a little too simplistic. I mean, I happen to think that imagine, and this is the correct opinion, everybody,

it's neither the best song nor the worst song of all time. It's somewhere in the middle. Pretty nice melody, good John Lennon vocal, lyrics a little simplistic, but, you know, not that objectionable if you don't have the context of it being presented as this profound generational statement, which, of course, it does have that so you can't it's probably hard to remove that from the equation completely well that that also we have the fairly recent memory of the uh what was it the coat like the gail godot uh was she the one like where they were kind of doing the imagine thing right no yeah right no yeah that was i i mean i feel like some of this anti-imagined stuff was like preceded that but yeah oh absolutely but that was the yeah that was like the steroids

moment for hatred of that song, for sure. And, you know, the worst possible presentation of that song. Just underlying all the, underlining all the worst parts of it. As far as the revisionism I'm most on board with, I guess I would say, because I've been involved with this a little bit, is this thing where you go back and you listen to the catalogs of great artists, like a Bob Dylan, he being the most obvious, example, and digging out albums that older generations didn't like and dusting them off and being

like, this is actually pretty good. You know, whether it's street legal, which I think actually is a great record, but, you know, the Christian albums or even an album like Empire Burlesque, like one of his crazy 80s production type records, that's something that's happened a lot with Bob Dylan. I think it's happened with a lot of artists of that ilk. I mean, you mentioned. You mentioned, the content creation industry and music criticism, a lot of times when someone like a pitchfork does their Sunday review, if they're going to write about an iconic artist like a Bob Dylan, they tend to focus on these second-tier albums that were maybe misunderstood when they came out.

Like when Neil Young was written about in that section, they did trans. His 1982 album where he has like the crazy robot voice. They recently did Power Windows by Rush, which not only is Rush, a band that was not critically acclaimed in their time, they did the 80s period of Rush, which within the world of Rush is controversial. So it was like a double revisionism, although I will say I love Rush and I love 80s Rush too. So I'm part of that, but that was like a double revisionism. It was like revisionism, even for Rush fans, because you're not only saying Rush is worth writing about here on Pitchfork, which would alienate the, you know, proverbial internet indie rock nerd. But now we're going to be like, we're going to even alienate the subgroup of Rush fans with this. So that's the kind of thing that I, that I practice probably personally the most.

So I guess I'm on board with that. Yeah. That, like, Steely Dan, I think is a big example. Yeah, like it's pretty much everything. But I think the question that Imagine brings up for me, and I think you are more prepared than most to answer this, which one has more esteem right now in our circles? Imagine or we didn't start the fire?

I would almost say we didn't start the fire. I would too. Which is a crazy thing to say. And it's the reverse thing. It's, it's, it's, it's, we didn't start the fire is, uh, you know, often thought of as like the worst song of all time or put in that conversation. So now it's like, wait a second. It's not the worst. It's actually pretty good.

And then with imagine, oh, that's the worst. I mean, that's the best song of all time according to Jan Winner or whoever. Oh, it must be the worst. So that's a great, that's a great parallel though. Yeah. We'll see what happens when we built this city. Yeah, once people start to clover for that, then we'll know that music revisionism

like needs the pendulum needs to swing the exact other way. Because it's like, you know, any song that's that popular, I don't think can be the worst, really. Because like the worst song really is a song that is musically terrible that doesn't connect with people. If it's a song that's obnoxious but it connects with people, there's probably something there that is meaningful. That doesn't mean it's great,

but to put it at the very bottom, I mean, it's very easy to talk yourself out of that if you want to do that. So, yeah, I don't know. Interesting conversation. I mean, I'm on board with revisionism. I have to say, even when it annoys me, because I love that history isn't set in stone, that it's constantly moving,

because that means it's. constantly interesting. If we just had a set of opinions that was carved into a stone tablet and people always felt that way, it'd be a lot less interesting to be a music fan. So this movement, I think, is part of what, it gives a lot of energy to these conversations, even when they're annoying, even when it's insufferable. Yeah, I take the bad with the good, I guess. Read our next question. We might have, I think we have time for one more here. This is, this, this, this, is a good one. This comes from Teresa in Phoenix. Thank you, Teresa, for writing. Longtime fan. Have you you guys ever discussed whether or not checking the set list before a show is something you're

okay with or not? I'm very firmly against this because I think it takes some of the magic out of a show, but I know people will do this due to traffic, which I do understand. What are your thoughts? Thanks so much and let me know. Love you guys. Teresa. Great question from Teresa. What do you think, and do you like to check the set list of a show? Because a lot of times bands, artists, they play the same set list every night. Setlist.com or set list or setlist. Is it setlist?

It's a setlist FM, I think, or setlist. Something along those lines. You can Google artist set list and you can, I feel like everyone now is on that app. It used to just be jam bands. But now it's like every kind of artist is on there.

You can find some kind of recent set list to find out what they're playing. Teresa doesn't like to look. because she wants to be surprised. How about you, Ian? Do you like to check the set list FM ahead of time? Yeah, I mean, they have like recent stuff. They also have like surprisingly old stuff.

As I've been working on my book, they'll have set lists from a show Bray did in 1998 at some college in like the Midwest. So I always feel like you got to be a little skeptical of that though because you don't know for sure. But yeah, you're right. You can find pretty obscure stuff there now. I mean, it's a great.

great site. I use it all the time. Totally. So when Teresa asked this question, I was preparing to see Death Cab for Cutie, which would be a great test case because this is a band whose catalog now spans nearly 30 years and is touring behind a very good new album, maybe not something that's at the 1999-200-level. So you know what to expect. You're going to get a lot of new cuts. You're going to get the obvious big hits from transatlanticism and plans. It's a Tuesday night. The venue is, it's at Gallagher Square in Peco Park, which is where the Padres play.

So it's got to be kind of a normy crowd. Something like 90% of the people yelled when they asked like, hey, who's this first time seeing death cabs? So I am absolutely in the space where I would do that because, you know, I got to record a podcast the next day. I need to get, I might be helpful to get a sense of like, okay, they're going to do transatlanticism or they're going to do Bixby Canyon Bridge. But the entire magic of this show is whether or not they're going to play, say, I was a kaleidoscope. I don't, like, I need to be

surprised if they're going to pull out something from photo album where we have the facts and we're voting yes. And you want to know what? The, my favorite part of the night is when I just completely perked up when they played company calls. There was also one great moment where they did a crowd sing along to I will follow you into the dark and just this one dude who somehow not me. yells photo booth like as loud as you possibly can so I don't do it there was one time I actually did though

and that's when I saw the cure in 2023 because this was at a venue we had to drive to and if we didn't leave right before the encore we would have been in that parking lot for an hour and a half yeah so yeah but and we found out

like yeah they're doing like this really broad deep cut set but the encore is like you know Friday I'm in love or close to me. So yeah, we had to do that then. Otherwise, no. Yeah, I have to say, and I'm not happy that I do this, but I often will check the set list

before I see the show. And part of it has to do with what you were just talking about. I am obsessive with planning my exit out of a show, especially if it is a, like, a bigger show, like an arena show or even a theater show. If it's a club show, I don't care as much because it's not that hard to get out of a club. But if you're in an arena or you're in a theater, any type of situation where you're parking, I want to get out of there. I want to walk out as they're playing the last song.

I am definitely that guy. I'm not proud of being that guy, but I have anxiety about being stuck in a parking lot. I have agoraphobia that's very specific to post-show parking lots. And I have to plan my exit so I'm not stuck. there. Also, I have been in situations during a show where maybe it was getting a little long or I was a little bored by the show and I wanted to see how many songs were left. So I've done that in the past. I will say that I think bands and artists are aware of people checking set list ahead of time. I mean, this is a real thing now. Again, it used to be more of a jam band thing

where people were very obsessive about set lists and they would talk about a bust out like a song they haven't played and however many shows and how that was a big part of that community and how that is really expanded to all sorts of different kinds of music. Taylor Swift, I think being a big part of that,

the heiress tour, all people would talk about her songs that she would play that were specific to each night. I think that actually did a lot. to spread the jam band way of experiencing these shows to like a lot of different types of music. So I think artists are aware of this and they're actually conscious about crafting their set list

to at least include a couple of songs that aren't in the set every night. So even if you are checking in advance, you are going to be surprised. So even if you are like me and you need to plan your exit, I still think that there's the capacity for being. surprised just because artists know that people are doing this anyway so i think that's a good thing but yeah i don't know if you can help it don't check ahead of time i do think it's probably a better experience don't be like me do as i say not as i do we've not reached the part of our episode that we call a recommendation corner where i and i talk about something we're into this week ian won't you go

first well i'm talking about something that's like kind of sort of new but mostly old um i'm deep in the saddle creek research phase of my book which has led me to find all sorts of fun facts about how much Connor Oberst loves Nas is the lost tape. But I've always been fascinated by the Omaha, Athens-Georgia connection, which was consecrated by Now It's Overhead, who are back. They released a new song earlier this week. They're going to release an EP. They are playing their comeback show in Athens 40-Wa Club on October 10th.

That's my anniversary. I probably won't try to convince my wife that we should fly to Athens, Georgia, to see him. because I don't know if they're a great live band. But now it's overhead as a great band. I really want to draw attention to their 2004 album, Fall Back Open. This is one of my shortlist Indycast Hall of Fame records. I'll mention it on Twitter, like once every eight months and get like two or three likes. But it's a really awesome album.

It's an interesting halfway point between the Martin Gore-led Depeche Mode songs in Coldplay. Plus there's a Michael Stipe feature at the end of it. Walls the great song too, let the sirens die from, from Dark Light Daybreak in 2006. And I love to recommend this band because it's a great reminder that, you know, these 7.2s or 3.5 star albums you see in the C review slot on any given day, they're classic to someone. So now it's overhead. They got three albums, one from 2001 self-titled, one from 2006. Their last one, Darklight Daybreak, and my personal favorite fallback open.

They're back. I hope we get more. New EP, two new songs, cover of Magnetic Fields. now it's overhead. So I want to talk about a band that I referenced earlier in our new album section of the episode, and that is a group from Toronto named Kiwi Jr. They have a new album out today. It's called Blowing Up.

And whenever I listen to this band, I always ask myself, why don't I listen to Kiwi Jr. more than I do? Because they really are one of these bands that has become quietly prolific in the 2020s. They put out their first record back in 2020 called Football Money. They've now put out their fourth record, which is called Blown Up. So that's four records in six years. And each record, I would say, is kind of the same as the last in a really good way. All the songs are really well written, got clever lyrics, you've got really good melodies in the verses that transition to these extremely catchy choruses.

it's just very well-made indie rock. And I feel like this group often gets described in the context of like 90s indie, especially pavement. I know like when their first record came out, they were often described as being pavement indebted. And I think that's because the vocals kind of sound a little like Stephen Malcolmis and the guitars kind of have that slack feeling that you get from 90s pavement records. But I really feel like the sensibility of this group is more. much more Canadian. Like, they remind me of groups like the new pornographers or a band that I love very much Sloan.

You know, these, again, kind of songwriter-oriented bands that are really good at making catchy, well-executed pop rock. And it's the kind of band that is so consistent. Now, when you listen to the album, you might almost think, oh, it's so predictable. Of course, the next song is going to have a clever pop culture reference and there's going to be a great synth part. and the guitars will jangle in a very alluring way that reminds me of all the great power pop records of the past. But really, this kind of skill, I think, is unique.

And Kiwi Jr. now is really building a body of work that I think, again, is very quietly impressive, which is another very Canadian quality to them. You know, there's an unassuming quality to this band that belies the quality music that they've been putting out on a consistent basis. So if you're not familiar with them yet, I think blowing up, is a good way to get into Kiwi Jr. And then go back and listen to all the other records. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week.