Indiecast - Soccer Mommy, Plus: Beyonce, Drake, Tim Heidecker, And Goose

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

Soccer Mommy's Sophie Allison quickly became one of the buzziest indie songwriters with her 2018 debut, existing at the nexus of '90s indie, alt-rock, and 2010s DIY music. On this week's Indiecast episode, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen discuss her new album, Sometimes, Forever (36:11), and debate whether it's an instant Album Of The Year contender or missed the mark.Along with discussing Soccer Mommy, Indiecast talks about news from arguably the two biggest names in music: Beyoncé and Drake. Both celebrities announced new albums just hours apart from each other, with Drake's house-leaning Honestly, Nevermind debuting the next day (2:09).In the Recommendation Corner (51:41) this week, Ian tells listeners to check out Candy, a Richmond, VA metalcore band who have leveled up their music in recent years. Steven shouts out Kentucky songwriter S.G. Goodman, whose sophomore album Teeth Marks is out now.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 94 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discussed the new album by Soccer Mommy. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. I also refer to him as college football daddy. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you?

You know, the funny thing about that is that you're the one from the Midwest. You're an actual father. You're really into Jason Isbell and drive by. truckers. I mean, and also just, but, is it college football your main sport,

though? It absolutely is, but I mean, you, you have the framework. You have, like, the potential to really just be that,

like, if you ever decide that hashing out, indie rock trends is no longer a direction. You want to take your career in, like, there is just so much potential for you in,

you know, in college football, Twitter, just pivoting to that completely. Also, I should mention that, I have yet to adjust to West Coast time, and I've been up since 4.30. It took me a few minutes to realize what college football daddy was referring to.

Yeah, you know, I don't know if it's corny to still be making soccer mommy jokes, but I figured, why not? I guess that's like a dad joke with college football daddy in there. You know, it's a little bit of a stretch. I mean, look, I am about to go on vacation. This is a, we're recording on Friday, June 17th. This is a banked episode. So we're recording this a week ahead of when we're posting.

When this episode actually goes up, I will be in a northern Minnesota cabin on a lake. I'll be boating. I will have been boating for several days at that point. So I'm already thinking about that. I'm a little distracted. So yeah, you had your vacation earlier this month. Now it's my turn. We're just banking episodes left.

and right. I guess we're already kind of missing things. We know, for instance, that there's a new Drake album, which is out on the 17th. Yes, it just dropped the morning of us recording. It's already proving to be very divisive in a way that, like, I didn't expect a Drake album to be. I think there's just, I mean, look, he's still one of the biggest, if not the biggest, artists on the planet. I'm sure this will spawn many

hit singles as certified lover boy did. But I don't see it in the same way as like appointment. Oh, I got to stay up past bedtime, i.e. 9 p.m. on the West Coast to listen to this new Drake album so I can be part of the discourse.

It sounds like it's an entirely him singing over dance beats album. Yeah. Which, you know, that's passion fruit. album. That's not the worst idea. Maybe I'll find a few songs to like about it. But I think at this point, like, Drake albums no longer are the appointment listening they used to be. I think that it,

I don't even know if, like, we would have covered this as like the meat of an episode. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we talked about his last record, uh, certified lover boy, which, um, you know, again, it seemed like the pattern of recent Drake albums where there's a lot of songs. He's throwing a lot of material out there. You expect that there's going to be memes generated from whatever he's doing on the latest record. I mean, it's funny to be talking about this now, because again, we're recording on the 17th, this album just dropped. The discourse will already be a week old by the time this goes up. So, you know, you mentioned that there was a backlash already. I wonder how that's going to play out. We don't know. I mean, people might be listening to this

and thinking, what a funny time capsule this episode is from a week ago. The React in this album in real time. There's also a new Beyonce record that was just announced. Yes. That is coming out in August. It's about a month. I think late July. It's Renaissance Act 1.

So I don't know if this implies further releases, but what, I mean, I was wondering, and we've talked about this on previous episodes, like what the reaction would be to a new Beyonce record because of, you know, the fact that she's still. like, you know, a billionaire and has spent the past couple of years, aside from the live album, mostly doing like Lion King or, you know, just kind of Disney adjacent stuff. And, you know, it's safe to say that on the previous episode we talked about like 2016, the year of lemonade being kind of a time capsule. People are still very much in the, no, you calm down. Like, please run me over with a truck kind of a reaction to a Beyonce. Well, that was, that was the

pitchfork subhead. Yeah. said something like, no, you calm down. Like it said, new Beyonce record, no, you calm down. Which I thought. They're a little sassier lately over at Pitchfork. With their, with their social media presence and some of their headlines, they're being a little, being a little sassy. Yeah, I don't know. Again, we're having this conversation about Kendrick Lamar, where, you know, Kendrick and Beyonce,

maybe the two most critically acclaimed artists of the 2010s, along with Frank Ocean. Like, that'd be the... Fiona Apple, I throw in there too. Yeah, but, you know, Fiona being a person who drops a record every, you know, 10 years. I mean, those, those, I feel like those three were the real trifecta. I mean, maybe bring Fiona Apple in. But, you know, it's been six years since she's put out a proper record. And I'm always curious, like, that is a long time in pop music.

Are the kids that are coming up, the kids that were like, say, 11 years old when a lemonade dropped, and now they're 17. Like, how do they look at Beyonce? You know, is it the same way that, like, people of our generation would have looked at, I don't know, like Madonna from, like, 1987 to 1993? I mean, still a big star, but definitely had changed in terms of her prominence in the culture. I don't know. I guess we'll find out.

One thing we do know for sure is that there's a new Goose album. There is a new Goose album. but you haven't heard the Goose album yet. Well, I haven't heard it in full, but I did take the opportunity to listen to the singles that were available. And, you know, you put all of those singles combined, and it is longer than a Joyce Manor record. But I'm very interested in hearing this because, I mean, with Goose,

I see what I was surprised by. And by the way, like, I went into this album knowing nothing about what Goose actually sounds like aside from the fact that they're a jam band. that... Yeah, we should say quick, and we've talked about this band

a little bit, I think, in the past. Like, I wrote a big feature on them. Um, I think that was in March.

I called them America's next big jam band or the next great jam band, I think I called them. Um, and they've been kicking around for a while now. They're at the point now

where they can headline red rocks and sell it out. They, uh, actually the weekend that this show post, they'll be playing two shows at Radio City Music Hall. I know one of them was sold out. I don't, I don't know what the status of the other one is.

But this is the next band in the lineage. You know, they're coming after fish. Fish is still really big. I mean, they're not coming after them in the sense of like going after their crown. I just mean that they're the next, it feels like in the secession of like big name jam bands. It seems like Goose is on a trajectory where they're going to maybe be playing arenas and amphitheaters like Fish does now, like in maybe three or four years. But yeah, they have a new album out today. it's called Dripfield.

And you said you've heard the singles from it. Yeah. How do you feel about it? So I think back to, you know, having been back at college and remembering the fish fans that I was friends with who were, this was around the time I think Billy Breaths came out or farm. It was it was the era bordered by Billy Breiths and Farmhouse. So like 96 to 99. I think it was more like 98 to 2001. Farmhouse was like 2000.

It was like 2000. Billy Breeze is 96. All right. So those are the albums that I remember them being like, hey man, like I know you're not into this jam band sort of thing. But here's like, it's like an actual album. It sounds like it could be on the radio.

And I think that I was surprised by what I heard on the Goose album. I mean, these songs are like five to seven minutes long. So they're not trying to be like down with disease or whatever. other fish singles were. But it surprised me how kind of indie rock it sounds. Like this sounds like a band that could have been on secretly Canadian and open for real estate back in the day.

Yeah. And so I wonder if they, I don't know if they're like the, you're the expert here. Like they don't sound to me so much like fish as perhaps like my morning jacket, like a jam band that could still move in like indie rock spaces. Like, is this there, it still moves, maybe? Well, I think Billy Breeze is a good comparison because that was, I think, the first Fish album where they were actually able to make a record

that wasn't just trying to replicate the live show. Like, the songs were relatively concise. I mean, those songs obviously were jammed out once they were played live, but it was a record that made Fish fit more with, like, the alt-rock bands of that era. And I would say that this Goose record, Dripfield,

has a similar vibe to that. And you mentioned them sounding like indie rock. And I think you're definitely on the right track with that because this is a band. These are all guys like in their late 20s, early 30s. They grew up listening to Vampire Weekend,

Bonnie Vair, Fleet Foxes, local natives, bands like that. Those are the formative bands for this group. While also listening to the Dead and Fish and Umphreys McGee and all that stuff. So it really is a band that's melding those two scenes. I think even more so than My Morning Jacket,

who have, like, jam-like tendencies, but for the most part, they're not playing... They might have, like, one song. It's usually, like, Steam Engine is, like, their big jam vehicle that they'll play for 20 minutes. But for the most part, you go see My Morning Jacket. They're not, you know, going too far away from the studio versions most of the time.

Whereas a band like Goose, They'll play these songs on this record that are five and seven minutes long and they'll end up being like 15 minutes long live But it is I think a testament to this band that they do take making record seriously And it is a record that I think Even if you're like I don't want to see a band Play you know a song for 15 minutes. That's not my thing You could still I think get into this record and enjoy it's like well I'll just enjoy the studio stuff It's funny that we're talking about

of this because this is we have a mailbag question that's related to this so we'll probably talk about goose again later in this episode i'm always thrilled to squeeze goose into indecast but um i want to ask you quick i wrote a a column earlier this month on the new tim highdecker record uh which is out today it's called high school and uh of course tim highdecker one half of Tim and Eric, probably the most influential comedy show of the last 10, 15 years, certainly in terms of internet comedy. I mean, am I wrong there? I feel like a lot of stuff that we see on the internet comes from, like, what they did

on their show in the audience. Kind of a blind spot for me, surprisingly enough. Like, I've enjoyed everything I've seen about them, like cinema on cinema. And, yeah, it's like the Tim and Eric show. like that's just not something that I've really ingested. I guess I missed my window for it. But yeah, you're definitely not wrong. Maybe there's like another thing that someone could identify.

It's like, oh yeah, clearly that. But if you, I think just off the dome, like that being the most influential, it's definitely one of the most influential. And one of the themes of that show was taking, you know, different forms. forms of media, especially like old media, like VHS type media, and deconstructing it and like putting it back together in these like grotesque shapes. Like to just, like, I don't want to intellectualize this too much because I think at its core, it's just like a silly, funny show.

But I think there is a commentary in a lot of what they do about show business and the media and like how gross a lot of it is. And you just have to exaggerate it a little bit. Like to sort of underline how just insane a lot of the media that we consume is, which is, I think, one of the reasons why that show resonated with people. And it was interesting talking to Tim about his music because as he's moved along in his music career, he started out doing parodies and more sort of, I guess, you know, comedy music. I don't know what the right term would be. He started out doing that in the early 2010s, but as he's progressed, his music has gotten more and more straightforward and more earnest to the point where his latest record, I would say, has no satirical element at all.

It's a record where he's writing about growing up in the early 90s as a teenager and all the things that impacted him at the time. And, you know, when I talked to him, it was interesting because, I mean, we're around the same age and we have, you know, sort of similar tastes in music. big singer-songwriter fan. He loves Bob Dylan and Paul Simon and people like that. And his record is like a very straightforward version of that. And it's interesting to me because he's going on tour where he's doing

his music, but he's also doing his stand-up, which is a piss take on stand-up, basically. I don't know if you've seen his stand-up comedy special. No, I've not. But he's basically playing a character where it's like the hackiest stand-up ever, just going through all these different tropes.

Like there's a bit that he does about how his wife wants to take him to the opera. And, you know, and he's just being an asshole the entire time he's at the opera. Stuff like that. But like that stand-up character is also named Tim Heidecker. You know, and his character in cinema, which is like this megalomaniac, you know, jerk, is also named Tim Hydecker. But then he's also doing music as Tim Heidecker, but it's himself. It's just a lot of different layers of like meta sort of kind of. commentary going on in his persona.

It's really interesting. I mean, and I feel like it's probably confusing to some people, although I think people who really like him get it, but I don't know. Like there's a blurring of lines between his persona and who he actually is, and like his records are like where he can actually be who he is. Yeah, I think that I would love to find a person if they exist who like listens to this Tim Heideck around because they're just really into like

space bombs label or whatever. and they're like, wait, this guy does comedy? What's up with this? Where it just completely submarines the entire thing. I love the, I always love when, like, artists open for themselves, you know, like, the times I see, like, Atlas sound open for Deer Hunter. Get that bag to him to Hideker. I had not listened to any of his records prior to this one.

And I wasn't, like, overly surprised by what I had heard. I knew he was kind of in that, you know, singer-songwriter. like kind of, I would describe it as like, you know, Foxogen extended universe sort of vibe. Right. And what he's worked with Jonathan Rado in the past from Foxygen, he's not on this record, but, I mean, that's definitely not. Did you know that?

No. He worked with Rado. No. Okay, well, then you just made an intuitive observation then because, like, he's, he's tight with him. He's tight with, like, Wise Blood and Mac DeMarco. Kurt Viles on this record. I mean, so he's definitely in, like, an indie rock community.

in Los Angeles. We were working with a lot of those people. Yeah, and when I heard the song like Sirens of Titan, like, you know, which is like about a Kurt Vonnegut book and about, you know, going to hear him speak at a university and say,

I love that one line. I was fiscally conservative until I got that college degree. It's like, it reminds me if like you would just adjust the dials a little bit. It could be a Father John Misty song in both its content and its delivery. but, you know, like, I enjoyed it. And also, like, I got to wonder what it's like to be somewhat,

like just straight up musician who's operating in this realm. And, you know, to see Tim Heidecker do it this well, even when he's got all this other stuff going on. It's got to be kind of demoralizing, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, he's just a talented guy, so he can do a lot of different kinds of things. But, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that the Sirens of Titans song because we talked about that. He actually said that

he saw Kurt Vonnegut speak in the early 90s and Vonnegut talked about how he was a supporter of Bill Clinton and Heidecker actually heckled him for that because he was, you know, he came from a conservative family so he just followed what his parents were into at that time and it wasn't until he got a little bit older and he read some books and he went to college that he turned it around it. I mean now he's like a pretty vocal you know, guy on the left.

He made an anti- he made an anti-Trump record in like November 2017 but it was like not like resistance. I was like, what was the name of it? Too dumb for suicide.

That was the album he made. Well, and you mentioned Father John Misty. He covered one of the songs from that record I think just in concert. But there's a song I think it's called like Trump's Libbon driver. Trump's private pilot, yeah. Trump's private private pilot

And it's like some from the perspective of Trump's private pilot and Father John Misty covered that. Yeah, I also like on that album, there's a song called Forchan, but it's like F-O-R-Chann. So maybe you think it's like for, you know, a tribute to cat power or something like that as opposed to, you know, the online four-chan. Yeah, exactly. Well, and it's interesting with him too. I keep saying interesting. but, you know, I think with Tim and Eric, there is an element of their fan base that lurks in those dark corners of the internet, you know, just because there was something so irreverent about that comedy and sort of like purposely off-putting that it also attracted kind of some of the worst people on the internet who have adopted, you know, some of the tropes of like Tim and Eric's comedy.

and I think he's had to react against that a little bit because he's made it very clear that he is very strong progressive and again if you follow him on Twitter there's no irony in his presentation he's very earnest I think about a lot of different things and when I talked to him he was a very thoughtful person he definitely was like not in character and I don't know like how many comedians you've interviewed

but it's always interesting when you talk to him a comedian who is known for, you know, having a very, like, a reverend persona, but then you talk to them and it's almost like they're relieved that they don't have to be funny in a conversation, you know, that they can be just themselves. And that's always like a, you know, like a fun type of interview to do. Yeah, I mean, I've worked with many, many comedians in the past. And yeah, it's, it's, I can see why it's so much more stressful than being a musician because, you know, You could be whatever the fuck you want When you're up there making songs

You'd be sad You'd be angry, you could be happy But comedians, like you gotta be funny And that, like, if you're not funny You can't, you know, just play a 20-minute jam You can't like turn up the reaver Because there's nowhere to hide if you're not funny And yeah, that explains just like why comedy

Is so much more of like a grueling And demoralizing line of work Yeah You know, yeah If you're interviewing a musician And there's no expectation that, oh, they have to pull a guitar and start singing in an interview. But if you're interviewing a comedian, I think sometimes, you know, people immediately want them to be funny. And it's like, okay, now we're going to do sort of a jokey interview where I'm setting you up and you're going to do quips.

And when you interview a person like that and they realize that you're not expecting them to do that, you almost feel like a palpable sense of relief from them. It's like, oh, wait, I don't have to do bits the entire time. I can just talk and be myself. So that's always an interesting thing to do. But yeah, I would know, I mean, comedian seems like the worst job than the world. It's pretty terrible. I've compared it oftentimes to like boxing in that,

at least this was the way it was before, before things like got democratized with funny or die. But it was like, you know, with boxing, you have like, like, you got to like really slum it out. And then once you make it, you've like really made it. There's just this enormous stratification between those people who are successful and those who are just kind of slugging it out and, you know, probably ending up with some kind of brain trauma from like, you know, doing seven straight shows at the chuckle Hutton in Indianapolis at like 12 and 2 a.m. Yeah. Yeah. And you're also surrounded by terrible comedians all the time too, which is another kind of torture, you know. It just seems like, it seems like bad comedians are some of the, worst people on earth. You know, just like bad people, you know, you don't want to be around.

Like, not only that they're not funny, you know, there's maybe something shady going on. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the bad comedians I saw in my old line of work were actually like really nice guys, but just like once you saw them perform stand up, you just could not look at them the same anymore. I mean, we can do it like, I actually don't want to do an entire episode about my time working in comedy because I wasn't a comedian. media myself. I worked on the management, like, the entertainment side of things. But yeah, it was, it was a profound, it was really awful. And it is in a way that I don't care to explore right now, directly responsible for the kind of lifestyle I lead right now. So, yeah, I mean, someone needs to

write us a letter about Ian's comedy past. And then we can talk about it. We have an excuse to talk about it. All right, well, let's get to our mailbag segment here. Thank you all for writing in. You know, like I said earlier, we've had a couple banked episodes this month. So we've had a big backlog of emails that we're trying to get through here. We haven't gotten to all of them. And I'm sorry if you write us and we're not able to get your email on the air. But we appreciate you reaching out.

And we have such nice people that write in. It's always great to hear from you. If you want to hit us up, we're at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. We actually have two letters in our mailbag today. Do you want to do the first one? Absolutely do. Because I feel in some ways this one's direct, it doesn't always break down to, oh, this is a Steve question, this is an Ian question. But oftentimes you can tell like the readers trying to lean a certain way.

It's like, hey, Ian, I want to talk. Oh, Steve also, I love the pod or something like that. This guy loves the podcast. And thanks for all the work you put into it. It's my only source of English indie music conversation since I live in Quebec. And I don't speak much English with most of my friends. So again, thank you. So we got Quebec qua, I believe that's how it's pronounced.

I'm going to butcher. I'm going to butcher the pronunciation of something today. So Jean-Paul asks us what we think about the weaker-thens, that they offer a healthy dose of what Steve might call Hartland Rock and certainly have some pop-punks-slash-em-o influence for Ian. So I'm curious if you enjoy them. Listening to the last latest album by M.J. Lenderman, a Indycast favorite, I'm reminded strongly of the weaker-thens, but being that they're Canadian,

It's hard for me to situate their level of influence. Am I remembering some guys or am I name dropping an obvious group that a number of U.S.-based bands might have enjoyed? Cheers, Sean Paul, or Jean-Paul. Sean Paul did give me the light. Never. Sorry. Yes.

Jean-Paul, thank you. And I took French in middle school and high school, but I don't remember a word of it. So just take it from me. I'm glad you know English so you can hear us talk. We should say quick, I guess, just for those who don't know. the weaker thens. I think they're a fairly well-known band, but they're not super well-known. This is a Canadian band, like Jean-Paul said. They have, I guess, I feel like they're broadly described as an emo band, although I don't think that that's totally accurate. Like Jean-Paul says, there's also,

I think, some, you know, like Heartland Rock type stuff. I think that they're best known, maybe primarily for the lyrics. I mean, this is one of those bands where a guy is talking and telling stories. You know, I think you could group them in with the Hold Steady and the Mountain Goats. I would say, like, definitely Jawbreaker slash Jets to Brazil. Like, I'd say the weaker thans are not directly in emo band, but they are so revered in that space that... I feel like that's the core of their fans. And they've been around, I mean, it's like about...

20 years at this point, isn't it? I mean, do they go back to the 90s? Well, they do in that John K. Samson, I believe, was in Propaganda, which is, yeah, which is another, like, very important band for a lot of people. But, yeah, I don't know if there's, like, a name for this genre of, you know, like, I just imagine, like, a guy, it's like a guy with, like, sleeve tattoos in a bar reading Bukowski and just, like, having a beer in the middle of the afternoon. Like, that's just what they do. Like a talking Like talking beer Yeah, exactly

I would call it that You know Like a 38 year old guy Who's into home brewing Maybe possibly We're very much type of guy in this But you know what Like that's

I don't think they mind That is a very reliable fan base Like the whole steady Good people Yeah like it seems like a very good fan base Good people Smart people Maybe take themselves a bit seriously

you know, like otherwise they'd be into music where you just like kind of point and shout the whole time. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny because we've described the weaker then in such rich detail based on their fan base. But like the music itself, I mean, like, I'm very curious if like you are into that. Because like you tend to be into more like the whole steady, you know, the Niam. I don't know how you feel about like Jawbreaker though. I like Jawbreaker well enough. I'm not a huge fan. but, you know, I appreciate what they do.

You know, you recently suggested that we do an episode on legacy bands that are blind spots for the both of us. And if we were to do that, I think the weaker thens would probably come up either by me or by you. This is a band I've dabbled in, and I have to say that my dabbling didn't necessarily inspire me to go deeper. It just wasn't something that really connected with me, even though on paper, I totally understand why it should. and I would say the same thing about the mountain goats, who are probably the ultimate example of that for me, where I look at it and I admire John Darniel as a writer. I appreciate the impact that those albums have had on people,

especially some of the earlier records that they put out when it was essentially a solo project for Darniel. It seems like they've evolved more into a conventional band in the last several years, you know, like with John Worcester being on drums, and I forget who else is in the band. I know John Worcester, though, has been the anchor there for a while.

I gotta say that, and I say this as someone who loves the hold steady, that my problem with both of those bands, like Mountain Goats and Weaker Thens, is just I find the vocals to be deal breakers for me, especially the Mountain Goats. There's just like a, I'm trying to think the right word. Choose them carefully.

There's like a hectoring element to the lyrics where, again, I think a lot of the words are good, but it's almost like they're delivered like a finger being jabbed in your chest. And it doesn't really give you a chance to let it land on your own terms. And I don't know. For me, it just has not connected. It tends to turn me off pretty quickly. I had a pretty similar experience. I mean, you know, I think back in like 2004 or five, like my girlfriend at the time was really into a plea from a cat named Virtue, which is a song The Weaker Thens make from like a depressed guy, like is hearing from his cat, which I thought, oh, that's super clever.

It was really aligned with a lot of the indie trends at the time. But, yeah, I've dabbled in Weaker Thens just because, you know, you're running the circles that I do. And it's just nonstop about their importance about John K. Samson being a genius. and yeah, like, the issue is I think the words are great. And, you know, I really enjoyed John Darniel's new book, Devil House. I've also had trouble really connecting with Mountain Goat's albums. I also think it's kind of funny that, like, John Darniel is a guy who pops up in, like, Facebook conversations I find myself in with music writers.

And, man, that guy does not like the smashing pumpkins. I'll tell you that much. He really doesn't. Really? I recall that, like, he just got to. really, really mad about the smashing pumpkins, which, look, I think, why? Well, I mean, this can be an entire episode, but you think about, like, how Billy Corrigan rubbed people the wrong way, particularly people who, you know, were kind of like outsiders and really into like indie rock values.

I mean, he had beef with who, like Kim Gordon, Courtney Love, uh, Steve Albini. I mean, you name it. Billy Corgan beef with Steve Malchmus. So I can understand how someone of like John Darniel's like, you know, tastes and age might really fucking hate smashing pumpkins. But yeah, it's fun. I think the weaker thens are just the kind of band that I missed my window with. And I think, you know, me without you is kind of a similar band. But then again, I don't know, if I were like really more intent on listening to the

weaker thens back in the early 2000s, 2000, you know, the mid-2000s, you know, the mid-2000s, I love bands like Bright Eyes and Okerville River, which are kind of working in a similar lane, but were more emotionally and musically unhinged and demonstrative. Like, I just needed it to be like super extra and not clever, you know? Like, I just, I just think that the weaker thans are a band I can respect and also I can live without their music. And, you know, fortunately, most of the people I know who are like weaker than's obsessives, they get it. They understand it's not for everyone. They're much less Hectoring than the music sounds.

Yeah, they're a nice fan base. So they get it. And they're Canadian. They're from Manitoba, not just Canadian. They are Manitoban. I'm still hung up on this John Donnell thing. Like, get over it, man. Like, you're still upset about, like, indie politics of the 90s?

I mean, come on. I think he just hates the music. I think the lyrics. Oh, yeah, that's, okay. That's his right. But I'm just saying, like, if you're still, I see this sometimes, people form an opinion in the 90s and they're still holding on to it. You know, they're like, oh, yeah, Stone Temple Pilots.

Like, they ripped up Pearl Jam. I hate Stone Temple Pilots. Like, it's 30 years later. Can we, like, drop the, you still invested in, like, the alt-rock politics of the 90s? I don't know. It just feels like we got to move on. Yeah, we definitely never, we definitely never hold us to opinions. We formed in the 90s.

Well, yeah. Other people do that. Not us, though. Yeah, that's true. All right, so I said at this top that we had two letters, but I'm looking at the clock here. We've already gone past 30 minutes, and we haven't got into the meet yet. And I feel like I'm going to make this rule right now,

that if we're not to the meet by 30 minutes that we have to rip-cord, whatever we're talking about, and get to the meet. You know, we got hung up on the weaker thens and talking about stand-up comedians. I think there's a lot of overlap. Like, the weaker-thens are kind of a band that you could easily imagine a stand-up comedian being the opening act. Also, I want, like, you get the meat in 30 minutes or less to be, like, our new slogan or something like that. That's true.

Can we, like, arrange something like that without a brawl? Yeah, we got to get some T-shirts made, you know. The meet in 30 minutes or less is our new motto here on Indycast. Do comedians still open for bands? That seems like a terrible gig for comedians. On the last Jawbreaker tour, that's a show. actually happened. It was like quite a few. Like I think Kyle Canane was one of the guys. Oh yeah, he's a total indie rock opener.

Yeah, like a lot of Chris Gethard. I mean, that's been like kind of that dude's entire thing is just being aligned with us. Like, you know, fest. Right. Fest adjacent type bands. That'd be in other episodes. We rank indie rock comedians. All the all the comedians are indie rock adjacent. you know, Kyle Canane, Chris Gethert. Irene, too. Yeah, she opened for

Drawbreaker in Chicago. Yeah, they're countless. I mean, you know, Aziz Ansari used to be that. Yeah. I mean, I know, like, in the 70s, you know, you hear stories about like Steve Martin when he was just getting started having to open for the Doobie Brothers or something.

And it just seems like a terrible gig. You know, people just want to hear music and then you have to go on stage and tell jokes for 25 minutes. I just wonder how receptive people are to that. But I don't know, maybe they're like, oh, cool. Chris Getherd. I love that guy. And I'm waiting to see Jeff Rosenstock or something.

And Chris Getherd comes out. This is great. I'm sure he's open for Jeff Rosenstock. He absolutely has. Or at the very least, Jeff Rosenstock and pup in that whole like side one dummy realm. Yeah. get harsh show. Okay, so we've already blown our,

the meat pledge, because we just got distracted again by comedians. We keep getting sucked into comedian talk. This is unbelievable. This is going to be comedian cast before long. Let's talk about the new Soccer Mommy record. It's called Sometimes Forever. It is out today.

This is her third album. You probably know Soccer Mommy already, but for those who are just getting acquainted, She is a singer-songwriter from Nashville named Sophie Allison. She first emerged in 2018 with her debut record Clean. Then her follow-up color theory came out in 2020. Both of those records were really acclaimed. I think especially Clean was a record that ended up on a lot of best-of-year-end list in 2018.

And here she is again with her third record, sometimes forever. and this album is notable because it's produced by OPN. 10 Point Tricks Never, who has really broken out as a producer. He did a lot of work on the weekend's most recent record, Dawn FM, and now he is working in the indie rock realm. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this record. I have to say that when I heard OPN was involved with Sophie Allison,

that I was really intrigued because while I like her first two records, I can't say that I like them as much as other people have. She's working in this 90s pop rock lane that has become really popular in indie circles, especially among singer-songwriters in the last two or three years. And she was really at the forefront of that. And she has some nice songs, but I've never been bold over by her record. So like when I heard that she was working with this producer who's very renowned, it just seemed like, oh, this is going to be an opportunity maybe for her to break out a little bit.

And I don't know if she really does. Like, I don't know if I would know that OPN did this record if it wasn't in the press release, you know? Am I wrong? I mean, how do you feel about this record? Well, I mean, just kind of think, like, thinking back on like soccer mommy and her, like, trajectory throughout the late aughts and early 2000s. You are absolutely correct in that she is, if not the most indicative artist of this, you know, kind of central nexus between, you know, like maybe Whipsmart era Liz Fair, but also like 90s alt rock like cleaner Cheryl Crow, but also

like late to mid-aughts DIY. I mean, it's a sound, I think of clean. It's a record I like a lot. I put it up there with like all like the first always album or jasms everyone were everybody works or even ohso osos basking the glow as albums that are like kind of deceptively like they're minor classics and that they don't sound like these big breakout albums but they sound like maybe 85% of like my promo pile but like done so much better that you begin to appreciate just how much craft there is into it uh color theory was an interesting record to me uh in that so Circle the Drain. Fantastic song.

One of my favorites of that year. Also, like, one of the last albums I remember really liking prior to the pandemic. But it kind of writ large a lot of the issues I've seen with bands, like artists of that ilk who started out as bedroom performers and then had to kind of build out to a band. Color Theory, the production was, like, really, you know, it was really slick and also just kind of mid-tempo. sound like she kind of needed like a band that, you know, was working with her like the entire time as opposed to, okay, here are my songs. We're just going to build out the rhythm tracks after

the fact. I didn't like that one as much, but that one also had a really strong presence on 2020's year endless. I was also really excited to see that she was working with one Otricks point never because, you know, this whole sound, it's become, like we are just so oversaturated. with like 90s alt rock revivalism, that it's really hard to stand out, unless like the strength of the song writing is so crystal clear that it can kind of overcome that. And so, I mean, and it's also just kind of like an unexpected,

it's kind of an unexpected collaboration. Because you figure if she was, I don't know, trying to build out that sound, it would be like John Congleton or Chris Walla or someone like that. This is the first time I've heard when a Trick's Point, do a straight-up indie rock record. And, you know, the first single shotgun, I could kind of hear his touch on that. Like, I love that Daniel L. Patton's used the term, like, textural fascism to describe, like,

why he likes certain keyboard sounds. And there are some places where that really comes across on the record. But I think the most interesting thing going on here is that in the same way that we, you know, bands like us, you know, Soccer Mommy and Snail Mail and such have, you know, recreated the, like, recast 90s indie, like 90s alt rock. 90s alt rock eventually had to, uh, confront electronica and trip hop. And the big departures on this record are like straight up like sneaker pimps. Yeah.

Like portis head. It's like really, it's so, it's so, I guess, fitting that that. the big departures on this record, or like the big departures, a band like this would have to make in 1998 as well. Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, I was expecting something similar to what 1 Otricks Point never did on the weekend record, which was help give, and what he's done on previous weekend releases, which is just give his records this sort of eerie 80s soundtrack type vibe, which is something I think he's been really good at. He's obviously done that. on his own records, but as a producer, that seems like, that's certainly one of the things I associate

with him. And I thought, oh, he's going to give her records this great sense of atmosphere, which is something I think is missing a lot sometimes on her records, which seem like a little straight to me. And when I was listening to this record, it actually made me think about this interview I did last year with B.J. Burton, who is a producer, who is most famous for working with Bonnie Vair on 22 a million. He also produced the last two low records. And if you know anything about those albums, you'd know that Burton's aesthetic is essentially to take pretty music and make it sound ugly. You know, if I had to reduce it down, like that would be the simplest way to put it. And he worked with Soccer Mommy in 2001 on a single that she put out called Romcom

2004. And Allison talked about this when the song was released, that she had this demo for a while. and her instructions to Burton were to take the song and destroy it. And when I interviewed BJ Burton about this, he said that he initially gave her like a very noisy production. It was very, very much him, very deconstructed and kind of fucked up sounding. And her label or her people or whoever said that the song was basically too noisy and that it had to be toned down because they wanted to get this song on the radio.

And he basically decided, well, I'm not going to fight it. You know, that's just the way it is. But it made me think about this record, because I do think that Sophie Allison, it seems like she has this instinct that she wants to take her songs in a more adventurous direction. But then for whatever reason,

whether it's her or it's her people or whatever it is, it ends up getting watered down, I feel like. And I just wonder if, like, Soccer Mommy is on that, runway now, like, where there's this expectation that she's going to follow, like, the Mitzki Japanese Breakfast, Phoebe Bridgers path, where you start in the indie world and you become an

indie star and then you become a mainstream star who can, you know, open for Harry Styles or perform on Saturday Night Live. Like, it seems like an album like this might be a gesture in that direction. I just wish it was bolder. I just wonder if there's a version of this record that was maybe a little more radical and it was eventually you know, the weirdness was taken out and we ended up with the record she ended up putting out.

Yeah, the thing to me, the thing is though that like the ones that are the biggest departures, like the ones that are like the most portershead, the most trip hopper, or like the big misses for me because I think that you know, your dog or

circle the drain or shotgun or blood for that matter or bones the first song in this record that really shows where her strengths lie but like when it gets more like production intensive and tries to be like menacing or abrasive i don't think that uh it really works as much so it you're right in that it's kind of stuck in this like neither here nor their territory where there are a couple of good songs in the beginning that are just a little more unconventionally produced than say a, you know, color theory. But also, it's not like the bold departure that you think it would be. Because, I mean, when I saw, oh, soccer, mommy and OPM together, like, I'm thinking to

myself, just based on that description alone, this is like a potential, like, top five consensus album of the year, just because of the narrative is so irresistible. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know if she really quite followed. I mean, maybe you could see her following the Mitzki Japanese breakfast, eventually playing Saturday Night Live sort of deal. I just, one of my favorite, one of my favorite moments from 2020 is hearing Bernie Sanders pronounced the name, Saka Mommy or however we did it.

Good, good times. But yeah, it's, I, I'm also wondering, though, whether this out, and like, look, I have, I've always thought to, like, about some of these, like, Laurel Hell, for example. Oh, is this the one where, like, people, not necessarily turn on the artist, but, like, maybe it starts to de-escalate and that's never been the case.

This record made me think of in the same way that Clean made me remind me of Death Cap for Cudies. We have the facts and we're voting yes in terms of the guitars and the lyrical content. I think about their album plans, which was super clean and well-produced and like a lot of the old school fans kind of hated it, but I loved it because I was like, you know, 25 and super emotional. And I don't know. maybe this is going to be someone's plans,

like the not as good record that they still love. But I was expecting this to be like, oh yeah, the third soccer momia where she like becomes this elite songwriter. Maybe that's just like my own fucked up narrative thinking and expectations. Well,

I mean, you brought up Laurel Hell, and I think of this album in the same context as Laurel Hell, where I felt like Laurel Hell was an album that was making gestures to being, a mainstream pop record but was still in an indie world type situation and it didn't seem for me to be satisfying in either way. It just seemed like to be splitting the difference in a way that just diminished the album. And most people like that album and she's done very well with that. And

so it leads me to believe that even though I don't really like this album from Soccer Mommy, that it will be big. I'm doing the George Costanza thing like where whatever, I'm going with the opposite of how I feel. The opposite of how I feel is what's actually going to be the successful turnout here. So the fact that I don't like it, that's probably a good sign for Soccer Mommy. Probably means that she's going to be really big with this record and she's going to be opening for huge pop stars and be on her way. And best of luck to her. I hope that happens for her. But yeah, for me, just in my personal view here, I just think that this record, it doesn't deliver on the potential of this pairing. I think that this album could have been a lot bolder and more interesting

and given us a different look at what she does. And instead, it feels like a treading water to me. I don't feel like she's really pushing it forward with this record. What I'm hoping, what I was like kind of hoping for, aside from, you know, this being an amazing record. And by the way, like, well, if Indycad doesn't like it, that really bodes well for the commercial prospects. That's right up there with like, we're going to give you the meat in 30 minutes or less as far as our taglines, but I was kind of hoping for even like a tremendous failure, you know, because gosh, I am so worn out by 90s alt rock revivalism that I'm just hoping that we get somewhere different soon, but like I don't think that's going to be the case. The next Biba Doobie album,

Beach Bunny, they're all going to be super. These are all like big albums coming out in July that kind of mine that similar sound. And don't you think, though, that this lane is full now? I don't think that there's going to be another new person to go in this lane. I think that we've hired all the applicants that are going to be in this lane, and they're going to write it out, and we're going to see what happens. But, I mean, this has been going on for a while now, this trend. I don't know if there's much room for, like, newcomers. I think if you're an aspiring singer-songwriter, you might want to pick another lane.

Because I just feel like the field is closed, I think, at this point. Don't you think? I don't know. I don't know how much farther you can push this if you're not already established at this point. Well, because we're saying this, I guarantee the next big thing is going to emerge on TikTok doing like 90s all rock. They're going to sound like, I don't know, like the first Po album. Yeah, but like we're getting at the point now past like early aught stuff. I wonder if that's going to be the new reference point.

If we're going to follow the common theory that nostalgia goes in 20-year waves, even though we already had like an early odds revival, at least of the New York stuff, but maybe, you know, we're now going to have people that sound, you know, we talked about follow-up boy last week. I mean, maybe that's the new thing. Maybe we're going to have a bunch of follow-up boy sounding singer-songwriters. But pop punk is back, didn't you know? Oh, yeah.

Well, that's true. Context collapse. That's really what we're dealing with here. I love the anti-indicast endorsement, by the way. I think people are now going to be lobbying us to say, do not like my record, because that will mean I'm taking it to the bank. I'm going to be opening for Harry Styles within three months of your pan. I think that, you know, like the reverse jinks here,

I think that could be a good part of our brand moving forward. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Record Edition Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, want you to go first? Yeah, I mean, despite the fact that there's, I think, on the same day, Duncan Sheik and Pete Yorne put out records. I'm going to have to kind of steer away from the expected record. We didn't talk about Sheik or Yorn?

Gosh, we are fucking up big time. I like Pete Yorne. Yeah, I fuck with Pete Yorne, definitely. He was on Celebration Rock, by the way. So, you know, always feel loyalty. to the old Celebration Rockcast. Music for the morning after. Fucking great album.

I think that was an Indycast Hall of Famer recently. Yeah. Day I forgot, underrated. I'll even go to Nightwalker. I'll go to that record too. Yeah, no, Tricks Point Never. If you're listening,

you and Pete Yorne really need to meet up. But instead, I'm going to talk about a band from Richmond. It's Nightcrawler, by the way. Sorry, I said Nightwalker for Pete Yarn. Said Nightcrawler. I don't make sure I get that right. If nothing else, we got to like,

they pledge allegiance to like Pete Yorne's catalog but yeah Richmond hardcore band called Candy they made an album in 2018 called Good to Feel with an extremely not safe for work cover art but they're back for their first album in four years. It is called Heaven is

here. They leveled up from Triple B a great hardcore label to relapse records and just to give you an idea of what to expect on this album. Here's some of the song titles. Mute a world of shit, human condition above human opinion.

Again, this is like one of those albums that I can highly recommend if you, if you're not a mellow ease into the morning sort of person such as myself, if you're like, I got to hit the gym by 7 o'clock so I can deal with work. I mean, I love my job, but nonetheless. This one is, it's a leveling up in a way you would expect from a hardcore band to level up, which is to say the production's better. there's more electronic things going on. The entire album is 30 minutes,

but it's only because the last song is 12 minutes. And I would just recommend this to anyone who kind of misses the older code orange sound, like who kind of wishes they didn't go so WWE with it, which, by the way, I love that aspect of code orange. But yeah, with this one, if you just want to like break shit or just like punch a mirror or like, I don't know, break a school bus over your knee. Candy, heaven is here.

That's the kind of bound for you. And I imagine, Steve, your recommendation will be in a very similar lane. No, it will not, actually. This is not for the people who don't want to wake up to world of shit in the morning. That seems rough. That's like, instead of drinking coffee, you're just pouring it on your arm. That's what I imagine, like you're waking up in the morning and doing that. I'm going to recommend an album that I've actually been listening to a lot this month, not just this week.

We haven't done recommendation corner here for a minute. So I feel like I have to play ketchup here with a record that I really love a lot. It's called Teeth Marks by an artist named S.G. Goodman, who's a singer-songwriter from Kentucky. This is her second album. And I've been describing it to people as a really good compliment to the Angel Olson record that came out early this month. If you remember the latest Angel Olson record, which is called Big Time, is really in this sort of lush, retro country, psychedelic type vibe with really big productions and really just gorgeous vocals. And again, you know, that's probably my favorite Angel Olson record that I've ever heard.

And this record by S.G. Goodman Teeth Marks, I think, is really much in the same vein, although I would say it's more stripped down. It doesn't quite have the grandiosity of the angel. Olson album, but it has a similar, I think, vibe of melancholy and beauty. There's also queer themes on this record as there are on the Angel Olson album. I would say that the S.G. Goodman record, though, like, it rocks a little harder. Like, there is a blue collar aspect to a lot of her writing. She's writing about small town life and dealing with economic, sort of inequality and just like how a lot of talents in middle America have been ravaged in recent years by, you know,

just a myriad of problems. And she's really writing from that perspective. And there's actually some songs on this record that remind me of like CCR, like that kind of blue collar vibe. Got some chugally songs on there, which are great, along with the more sort of slower, more beautiful songs. But yeah, I think this is a really special record. And I really have been enjoying playing it here. In the summertime, I think it's a great album to play at dusk. So, wake up to Ian's record, blast some world of shit in the morning.

And then when you're chilling out later on, maybe put on teeth marks by S.G. Goodman, I think you've got a recipe for a well-rounded day. Yeah, we've got a good life plan here. Yeah, I'm interested in this record. You know, S.G. Goodman, M.J. Lenderman. I think we got, like, we are one away. Like some singer-songwriter in like the kind of sunbelt, you know, maybe from Tennessee, is going to like rename themselves as like AJ something or other and, you know,

get the Indycast seal of approval. Yeah, initial core. Yeah. We've got initial core coming up. It's going to be great. Well, that about does it for this episode of Indycast. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.