Indiecast - The 2021 Year-End Indiecasties

Episode Date: December 17, 2021

2021 is finally winding down, and on the final episode of the year, Steve and Ian are celebrating with the return of Indiecasties, the semi-annual Indiecast awards show. Who will take home this year’s Indiecasties, widely regarded as the most prestigious award in indie rock? Tune in to this week’s episode to find out! Included in this installment of the Indiecasties are awards for:“Why Isn’t This On Your List” Award: Consensus Album That is Truly OverratedNominees: The Weather Station, Olivia Rodrigo, Cassandra Jenkins, Japanese Breakfast, Snail Mail, and moreThe “Hey, I Actually Like The Album!” Award For Artist You Came To Like This YearNominees: old LPs from Sonic Youth and the new efforts from Tyler, The Creator and Dry CleaningMost Annoying Music StoryNominees: Phoebe Bridgers smashes her guitar on Saturday Night Live, Lana Del Rey defends the Capitol rioters, St. Vincent’s entire Daddy’s Home album cycle, the “can adults like Olivia Rodrigo?” debate, and Foxing’s fateful Pitchfork review.Most Memory-Holed Album Of 2021Nominees: Lana Del Rey’s Blue Bannisters, Kacey Musgraves’ Star-Crossed, Drake’s Certified Lover Boy, Iceage’s Seek Shelter, Lorde’s Solar Power, and more.You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we hand out our annual year-end award, The Indiecasties. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. See him in this holiday special on Amazon Prime. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? First off, if I had a holiday special, it would be on like Tooby or like one of those other kind of like low-rents, service. Peacock? Yeah. Peacock's too classy. I, you know, I want one of those channels that, like, I go to when I want to see movies like kill a season or something like that.

Is Crackle still around? Well, you know what? Watch my holiday special to find out. Crackle, they had comedians and cars getting coffee. I think that was their big franchise, and then Jerry Seinfeld took that to Netflix, so I don't know what's on Crackle now. Yeah,

kill a season would be on there probably. Painted full, like all those movies, like all the movies that I, it's like, wait a minute, I didn't see that movie that this rapper I like started in 2002. Maybe this is where I see. Like the rapper movies and all those straight to video Bruce Willis movies. I think are on crackle. Yeah. I mean, like, look, man, there's too much overlap with the streaming services already. So I like ones that are more specialized.

Look, you can watch all two and a half hours of kill us. season and then my holiday special, make a night out of it, make it a new Christmas tradition. We should say what we're referring to, though, with that, right? I mean, because we're referencing, by the way, this is our last episode of 2021. We're taking the last two weeks of December off. And I'm reconsidering that now because this week was so packed with news that maybe it's just going to go hog wild through the end of December.

Yeah. Because we're making jokes about this announcement that LCD. sound system is doing a Christmas special on Amazon Prime, and you have a bunch of indie people, people in the indie community reacting against this, because it doesn't seem very indie of LCD sound system to be working with one of the biggest corporations in the world, a corporation with some would say questionable business practices. Also in the past week where you hear about like the tornadoes hitting in, you know, the mid-s southeast. than like with the way like Jeff Bezos

didn't make safeguards for people to not work during tornadoes. So, you know, the timing's off. Yeah, I'll give it that. Yeah, not great. Yeah, not great timing for James Murphy. My only thing with this is that is there anyone out there who is invested in the integrity of LCD sound system at this point? I mean, I know a lot of people love that band.

Yeah. No shots if you love that band, but this is a band that faked a farewell concert at Madison Square Garden. and made a documentary about it. I feel like that was the end of the innocence with this fan. If you were happy... Well, you know, I know a lot of people were happy that they came back and there was that album, American Dream.

Is that what it's called? American Dream was 2017. Is that one been memory hold? Like, I... Do people actually still like that album? I remember it was like one received. I'm not, you know... Is it their Coda or is it their present?

No, in through the outdoor. Is it there in through the outdoor? I don't know. My connection to the LCD sound system hive is pretty distant at this point. I mean, didn't they just do 20 shows in Brooklyn? And there was some sort of like American Express tie-in, like Express customer and got the VIP experience. I mean, I don't know if James Murphy is not Ian Mackay. You know, I don't think, and he's under no illusions that he's Mr. Indy ethics.

or anything at this point. So I understand people might be disappointed that they're working with Amazon, but this is not the band that I would feel like, oh, I'm blown away that they would do something like this. In fact, I would totally expect them to do something like this. Yeah, when you think about LCD sound system as this like long-form commentary

about New York culture and appropriation and, you know, gentrification. I mean, this is the logical endpoint. You mean, I, what always disappoints me about stories like these is that, you know, people use, like, a moral standpoint just to criticize something that's actually, like, corny. You know, it's like, no one is harmed, really, by LCD sound system, you know, let alone LCD sound system themselves or their fans or anything like that. It's just like, yeah, this is corny. Just say so. And also, like, it always bugs me when, like, where was this critique of LCD sound system when they were actually making music that deserved.

critique in its own way. It's like, okay, now you can get a free shot because they're doing something corny and wrap it up. It's like, it's too little too late as far as I'm concerned. Well, look, I'll say I was a fan in the aughts. I like those first three records. And again, I don't begrudge anyone who's excited that they came back. But I'm sorry, I can't get over that, you know, the spectacle of that Madison Square

Garden show. and they made that very ponderous documentary about it. Yeah. Where James Murphy at the end is crying while looking at all the band's gear like in their loading area or whatever. And then they come back five years later and totally cash in on all the festivals

and all that kind of stuff. I don't know. I just can't take it seriously anymore. The bloom was off the rose at this point. And again, if you love that band, that's fine. Enjoy the Amazon. Christmas special or holiday special. I don't know if it's tied to any one holiday.

But there was some hand-wringing this week because not only did you have the LCD sounds like some story, but then there's a story, which I think is much funnier. Oh, it's so much funnier. It speaks to your point about, like, you don't need to moralize it. You can just laugh at it because it's pretty corny. Yeah. Is Arcade Fire doing the corporate event for a cryptocurrency in Las Vegas? Yeah.

They played a concert for this cryptocurrency company. First show in two years. LCD, wasn't it like Kings of Leon and Steve Aoki also on that show? I mean, it's just like this Russian nesting doll of like cornyness. It's like A, corporate event, B, it's NFT, C, it's in Las Vegas, and D, like, Kings of Leon are also involved. And by the way, like Kings of Leon, we should really get, they were like one of the first bands on this NFT. Oh, yeah. They had a record this year, right?

Yeah, cutting edge. Right. They had a record, which I cannot remember. The name of the album wasn't cutting edge, right? You're saying it was a cutting edge movement. No, they were like, I think the first band that offered, like the first major band that offered some sort of NFT tie-in with their album. Right. Yeah, but I'm just trying to remember if that album came out this year.

I'm pretty sure it did. You know, one of our Andy Cassie categories is memory hold album, King's of Leon, that wasn't nominated. I think that's a snub. That should have been nominated in that category. Can something be memory holds so deeply that it actually escapes the most memory hold albums? That's it. You are the true winner of the memory hold category if you weren't nominated because we forgot that your album came out. But when I saw this story, it did make me think, okay, is this going to be similar to the Everything Now album cycle, like where Arcade Fire was planting these stories in the press?

that generated all this negative buzz, and it was this meta thing with the content of their record because everything now was this satirical look at internet culture, and now maybe they're going after NFTs. It just made me think of, you know, finite content, finite content, finitely content.

Is that how the song? I don't remember how that song actually... There's a song called Infinite Content. Yeah, I don't remember it. But this would be finite content Oh, fungible content or something. Fungible time. Yeah, exactly.

Because the whole thing with NFTs is that they're finite, that there's only one of them. Right. So this could be like an everything now type sequel. Yeah. Where they're doing this concert as a stunt. And then after this, they're going to write like a fake stereo gum concert recap of it.

Winking at the music press a little bit. I don't know. I'm just saying I'm throwing it out there as a possibility. Yeah. I think you're giving arcade fire way too much credit. Well, you know, they're tricksters. They're postmodern tricksters. Yeah, they're not good at it, though.

Like, what you're assuming is that they have, like, a real command of sarcasm and camp. And I think everything now proved that they are, they have absolutely no grasp of that whatsoever. But I think, like, the thing that annoys, like, I'm not annoyed at Arcade Fire in this. Like, oddly enough, I'm more just kind of annoyed about how, like, with LCD sound system, people are trying to bring this up as like some sort of like moral conundrum like how could arcade fire do this when you like just just say it's corny don't introduce a moral angle and also like bands have been doing corporate like indie bands have been doing corporate shows for so long like under the radar um and like I mean this is how a lot of them like actually made ends me

you know what I mean did this get leaked or did they announced this I find it hard to believe that, unless again it's part of a postmodern trickster, PR campaign, this must have just gotten leaked somehow. I don't know if it got, I mean, it existed. I don't know if they were trying to hide it. Maybe they were just like, look, this is going to happen, but we're just going to, like, get through it. And, I mean, I really hope that someday there's just more of, not an ex-posé because I want

to do a gotcha moment, but, like, I think that corporate shows. like this one have been the lifeblood for a lot of indie bands. And, you know, it's just like, okay. Like, it's the same way that sometimes when you're a writer, you do a bio for a band on a major label because, like, well, my name's not going to be on it. And the money's good. So this is something that's going to help me pay rent. I mean, look, I remember, like, like, Beyonce did, like, a $2 million gig for,

like, Omar Gaddafi's son. So, I mean, they're... Which is probably worse. Yeah. Yeah. If you're, you know, performing for Gaddafi's son, that's probably worse than this. I don't know. Maybe Gaddafi's son's actually, like, cool and shit, you know?

Maybe he's, like, trying to, he's trying to break from the family tradition of dictatorship. My question with the Arcade Fire, like, the Arcade Fire show, though, like, this is, like, the most indie cast question imaginable. But, like, of course, like, I think the fact that, like, Succession had its whole season made us, you know, get off our billions kiss. but is Arcade Fire's like very real NFT concert worse than the Hold Steady playing a fake Axe Capital private event? Well, yeah, because it's real. But is it like they got paid real money though? Yeah, well, I'm sure the Hold Steady made money. Yeah, not as much.

I think, you know, there's a, I mean, we're through the looking glass here a little bit with the hold steady on billions because it's like is the idea that Bobby Axelrod likes this band? Is that a comment on Bobby Axelrod? Because I know Brian Copelman, who's a friend of the podcast, I know he's a fan of the old steady, so I think he just wanted to get them into the show. True. But, you know, I also think of like the Sopranos and the fact that like Tony Soprano loves Journey. It's kind of a comment on, like, what kind of guy he is, like a guy like that would like Journey. It's not necessarily an endorsement of journey. It's more like, this is part of his character. It's something that a middle-aged guy in New Jersey would like. But also playing like a hedge fund. Like, I mean,

NFT, you could make the argument that it's at least somewhat like futuristic. Playing a private event for a hedge fund? Yeah, I don't know. So like, are we saying then that in the billions universe that the hold steady's ethics are compromised? I think so. Yeah, I mean, like Like, what is a more indie cast question than, you know, debate, vis-a-vis the arcade fire doing a NFT concert assessing whether in the fictional universe of billions, the hold steady would face the firing squad on Twitter for playing a hedge fund private event? I think it's just, to me, the arcade fire story, it's funny because it's arcade fire. Absolutely.

It's funny because it's that band, you know, because Kings of Leon doing that isn't as funny as Arcade Fire doing it. That's like part of the job description to be the Kings of Leon and doing something like the NFT concert in Las Vegas. Right, exactly. And you kind of feel like, you know, Godspeed because, you know, they're at that point in their career where they should be doing things like that. Absolutely. I'm sure they made a ton of money doing that. I mean, it's similar to another big music story this week where a veteran indie rocker is acting very much in character. You have Jack White.

He's going to be doing a tour. I think it's called the supply chain issues tour. Yeah, great name, by the way. It's a great tour name, by the way. Jack White is, he's funny.

I'm going to defend Jack White. I think Jack White gets too much flack at this point. I think he's funnier than people give him credit for, and that tour name is part of it. But he has this policy, it appears on his upcoming tour where, and he's playing big rooms. He's playing like arenas.

Okay. Where he's going to be taking people's phones away and putting them in these little sacks. And you can apparently get your phone back if you go to a designated area, but he doesn't want people to have phones. And I just want to say, like, I've seen Jack White in the past few years, and I went to a show as a much smaller show where he did this. And I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

I mean, it was kind of weird because I'm like everyone. I'm a phone addict. I'm constantly reaching for my phone, and it wasn't there. And there were a few times where I panicked because I thought I lost it. And then I remembered that it was in a bag. somewhere. My only comment on this, though, is that of all the annoying

things that people do at concerts, looking at a phone to me does not even make the top ten. Is this really that big of a problem? I tweeted about this. I wish they would put people who talk throughout the entire concert in a bag

and put them off to the side. That's something that should be banned. People who talk all the damn time, or the people that, if the performers trying to tell a story between songs, like the people who just like whistle constantly. Put them in a bag. Yeah.

Off to the side. The phones, to me, it's just not that big of a deal. But I also don't think, I mean, I know there were people online acting like this was some sort of, you know,

great intrusion on Jack White's part, or they're not going to go to the tour now because they're taking the phone away. Again, this happened to me. I don't think it's a big deal to take a phone away. Yeah. But I also don't think phones are that much of a scourge that this is rectified.

Did you say scourge? It kind of came out wrong. It came out wrong. We're not editing that in post-production, by the way. No, we got to leave it in there. I feel like this is a bit now on the show where I mispronounce words, and I think people enjoy it.

But I mean, are you annoyed by phones at shows? I guess maybe it's a generational thing. I'm just not, I don't even notice it anymore. People on their phones is like the least of my concerns. I can totally understand if the band itself, you know, feels like it diminishes the show somehow. But, yeah, the people who talk, the people who, you know, whistle or, like, the people who, like, try to talk to the band while they're playing, you know, like, this all comes out as me saying, like, oh, yeah, I love live concerts except for the people who go to the shows. It's the truth, though. Yeah, it really is.

But you know what? Like I think like with the arcade fire, like with LCD sound system, this one in particular stands out to me is like, why don't we ask the people who might actually go to a Jack White show what they think about it, you know? I think most of the people who are moralizing about this right now is it being, it's like, are you really like a Jack White solo show in 2021? Like are you really the audience here? I think this is a situation where I really actually do want to hear both sides.

I want to see the Washington Times or Slate article from some Bob Lefset's type character where they talk about how this is like the revolution. This is the revolution that needs to happen within live music, not any of this live streaming or TikTok, but taking away phones. And we're all going to sit by a campfire in the middle of Madison Square Garden, and listen to Jack White tell his tales. I mean, my sense is that people who would most likely go see Jack White are either indifferent or they're in favor of this.

Or they're just looking at their phones because of like, you know, they got to check on the babysitter or something. Yeah, but I don't know. To me, you know, like when you look at social media and people reacting to this, I think people who are on Twitter all the time are probably more likely to have anxiety about not having their phone. You know, because these are probably the worst. phone addicts that there are. And I'm putting myself into that camp, okay, because I'm on Twitter all

the time. Yes. I know I'm a phone addict, and I just feel like you're going to see a disproportionate amount of people who don't like a policy like this on social media, because those are the people who are most neurotic and obsessive about their phones, whereas maybe normal people, again, would be indifferent to it or would lean toward being in favor of it. So I don't know. Again, It's not that big of a deal. But again, I'm having second thoughts about not doing shows at the end of December, because if we have this much gold in mid-December, I just worry about the gold we're going to be missing after this episode during our break.

But, you know, it is what it is. Yeah. Also, we got to mention, like, why we're recording on a Wednesday, like, why we're recording on a Wednesday as opposed to our usual day. I think we just need to let our listeners know about the policy going forward, which is that at least until February, we are always going to record the day after Big Thief puts out a new press photo. I don't know if it's been put out yet. No, it's out there.

I had my first viral tweet in a long time just by pointing out that big, I mean, like, people, like, people say, oh, yeah, they got that rug rats drip right there or. Yeah, they look very hippie-ish in that photo. They look more hippie-ish than, like, fish. Like, if you look at a fish band photo or, like, any jam band, they don't look nearly as hippie-ish as Big Thief. Yeah, the utility vest without an undershirt. I mean, like, these guys are just, like, all four of them are pulling just the ultimate heat check with this outfit.

I love it. Yeah, I love it, too. I mean, and I'm going to, this is a warning for our listeners heading into 2022. I'm going to be beating the Big Thief drum pretty hard leading up to their record. I think it comes out. February, yeah. Just a word of warning. I'm going to be doing some serious standing on this show for Big Thief up ahead.

So hopefully we have a strong Big Thief constituency out there. I think we do. I'm pretty sure we do, yeah. I'm pretty sure we do. Well, okay, let's get to the meat of our episode. We had a long banter segment, but we have... This isn't banter. This is like...

It's not the meat of the episode, but it's like substantial appetizers. They are. I mean, this is an action-packed episode. Like, we're leaving you with a heater here. We're not going to be around for the next two weeks, but hopefully this will keep you all, you know, feeling, you know, sustained while we're gone. Let's get to the Indy Casties here. Now, for people who aren't familiar with the Indycasties, every year, Ian and I like to give away awards to people in the indie community and not just like the usual awards, like best song, best album, but we have very very, you know, even. specialized categories. And because we'd like to honor the people who not only make great music, but create great content for us to talk about. Yes. On this show. So I feel like that's who we end up honoring the most.

The content makers, the discourse drivers. The real heroes. The real heroes. Yes. Is there anything you want to say before we start handing out awards, Ian? Nah, I mean, this one's interesting because, you know, last year we did the Indiecast, these, Indie cast had only been around for like half the year. Now we just have so much more discourse to pull from.

So yeah. Yeah, we are not skimping on this one. This is a year-end extravaganza. It just might be like the Emmys where we're four hours in and they just got to play our music off. I mean, like last year too, we had a half a year. It was also the pandemic. So there were no tours.

A lot of albums weren't being released. I mean, we were really scrounging in 2020 at times. for things to talk about, for the most part, not a problem with that this year. Lots of things to talk about, as we'll see as we get into our award. So our first category is, why isn't this on your list?

The award for the consensus album that we think is truly overrated. Yeah. So, you know, yes, because we all look at lists, we all see the albums that are claimed, and we've put out our own list, and sometimes people say to us,

hey, why is an album X that seems to be on everyone else list, why isn't it on your list? And it's because we think it's maybe a little overrated. So these are the albums that we've nominated in this category. The nominees are The Weather Station, Olivia Rodriguez, Cassandra Jenkins, and here's where it starts to get a little spicy. Japanese breakfast, snail mail, and turnstile. A shocking nominee.

Yeah, look, they weren't in our top five. And we're pretty much rock guys. And on most publications lists, Turnstile ranked higher than it did in our individual list. So I think it's just like more... It was really like the only rock record. Yeah, it is the only rock record that exists in 2021. Like, I...

What a fucking world we live in when like turnstile is like, is like number one on like spin, you know? Well, and we both love... Oh, love turnstile. The turnstile record. So we're just saying that like... It might be overrated by definition. Yes, exactly.

In terms of it's the scale of the praise that it's gotten in proximity to other records that we would talk about on this show that we think would be worthwhile. Yeah. Only in that sense, but we both really love that record. Japanese Breakfast and Snail Mail are two, I think, I don't know if those are your winners, but those are more your... Because I like both of those records. I like them too. Japanese breakfast was in my top 10. So I like that record a lot.

And you don't know this because this hasn't been published at the time that we're recording, but it will be published by the time we post, which is that the Up Rock's Critics Poll published on Thursday, the number one record, Japanese Breakfast, Jubilee, top the poll. So maybe that gives it more ammunition for being an overrated record. Yeah. It seems to me that that's an album that a lot of people like a lot, but it's not necessarily a lot of people's like number one record. And I feel like that got to number one because of a plurality of making top tens, not necessarily because it was the most passionate choice for people.

Because that's where it would be for me. It's a record I like a lot, but it's not like my favorite record. So, yeah, I mean, I think that was like a nomination for me. like snail mail I like that record I also think that it kind of it's

I can say that like my being a little bit cool on it is due to very boring reasons like it kind of falls off in the second half you know there's nothing like philosophical about it

I just think oh it's it's very top heavy but um and also I would say like some of the more genre specific albums I think are overrated like it you know I shouldn't like I'm not an expert on ambient jazz or R&B, but, you know, when I see albums like floating points

or Jasmine Sullivan like that high, I feel like they should, you know, win over people who aren't necessarily experts in that realm. You know, like the way like Sisa or Solange's album did, I just listened to the Jasmine Sullivan album. I'm like, okay, this is pretty good. Reminds me of like, you know, a couple, you know, thematically of like the Missy Elliott songs like, you know, all in my grill or so forth. and just an odd choice as like a consensus for me.

But like as far as like indie stuff, Japanese breakfast, I think it's indicative of like people really wanting to see. Like I have, I think it's a good album. I generally root for Michelle, you know, to win in this industry,

which she's clearly having a fucking phenomenal year. And, you know, perhaps if I were, I get the feeling if I were like 10 years younger, I would be super, super, super. into this album. But when I think about it in the context of, and I know this is somewhat reductive to compare it, say, like, you know, Phoebe Bridgers or Snailmail or, you know, Mitzki album, you know, like, look, they have much more in common stylistically than they do differences. I never get the real wow moments from Jubilee that I do from those artists or really even like

previous Japanese breakfast albums. I think it's just this, it doesn't quite work as pop for me. I'm gonna like put out a real hot take and say like, B-Sweet is probably my least favorite song on that album. It makes me think of like going to clothing stores or like being stuck in an Ace hotel or something like that. It just, it reminds me, like I know Jack Tatum from Wild Nothing co-wrote that song

and it reminds me of the Wild Nothing albums where he tried to go kind of pop and It's like, yeah, your voice doesn't really work for this. So I don't see time vindicating me on this album, but I think that, and I don't think that people are dishonest about liking Japanese breakfast as much as they do. It just seemed like a kind of a foregone conclusion that a 2021 Japanese breakfast album was going to top the polls no matter what. It's interesting, though, to me, because I feel like when the album came out,

the reviews were positive, but they weren't over the moon. I don't know, but I feel like they were like super-dooper positive. I mean, but like it didn't get the best new music from Pitchfork, although it ended up, I think, at number 14 on their list. Saw that coming from a mile away. I don't know. I'm a little surprised by how it has ended up on these lists. And again, I attributed to it being a record that a lot of people like quite a bit in a year where there's no real, like, dominant record. Yeah.

You know, like, there's no, like, obvious slam dunk album of the year. So an album like that that a lot of people like that the plurality of the likes elevates it. And that's my theory on that record. At least according to Metacritic, it's got the same score as Tyler the creator, Lil Sims, Adele. So, I mean, it got... Really? God, that's really surprising. Yeah, it was very well reviewed. So, for me, this category comes down to two albums.

It would be Olivia Rodriguez or The Weather Station for. me. Yeah. And the Rodrigo record, there are moments on it that I like quite a bit. I tend to really gravitate to the bubblegum pop punk songs on that record, the more paramour type songs. And it's my hope for her as she moves forward that she leans more in that direction. Because the other part of the record are songs in the vein of her huge hit driver's license

where it's a lot of melodramatic ballads about. you know, breaking up with your high school love. And I don't know. Those songs just don't really work for me as well. And I realize I'm saying that as a 44-year-old man. It's not pitched at me, but still, you know,

I mean, this was like the number one record picked by Rolling Stone. Yeah. So, which, by the way, Rolling Stone, they've really revamped their style. They used to always be the magazine that would,

you could count on for, you know, to put you two and Bruce Springsteen and Bob Dylan in their top five. And like, they totally go on in the, opposite direction with their list this year. Like the War on Drugs, for instance, which I would feel like would be a band that would appeal to the classic Rolling Stone Reader.

Like, that didn't even make their top 50. Wow. It's a very pop list, which I think is an interesting pivot for them. So anyway, like the Rodriguez record, I kind of like it, but I feel like it's an interesting debut that I think her next record, I'm curious to hear. And I'm hoping that she goes more in that paramour pop punk direction. could be really great. The other record,

in more of like the indie sphere, would be the Weather Station record. And this is a record that, you know, I appreciate its thoughtfulness. I think it's very well made. But it reminds me of like a movie that like Eddie Redmay would be in

called like the elephant in the balloon. And it gets nominated for like eight Oscars. Yeah. And the critics really like it. And people say, what a classy film. And then they never talk about it again. after award season.

Like it has that quality to me of a record. Prestige. It's a prestige record. It feels very self-serious to me. And it just feels a little dry. You know, and look, I'm willing to concede that maybe the problem is me. Because there's a lot of smart people who put this on the year end list who probably have better taste than I do.

And maybe I'm just missing it. But I don't know. To me, that's how this record hits. And it just kind of kept me from appreciating. I'm just curious to see how people feel about that album in five years. You know, maybe I'm wrong. But I don't know, that's just how it feels. That would be my prediction for that record.

I'm thinking maybe it's got like some kind of like a who kill type future where it's like, oh, really that one? She has like a pretty long career. Yeah, she does. Well, so did two years. And I think she's got a lot of goodwill. It seemed like the kind of record where there were fans of hers who enjoyed her body. of work. Maybe it's similar the Japanese breakfast thing that you were talking about where people

just felt like... Lifetime Achievement Award. I like this artist a lot. This few, in this record, you know, it's a climate change record. It feels like a statement type album. And maybe people just felt like I want to get behind this artist because I like her catalog and she's maybe feels a little unsung, which I respect. But yeah, just for me, I didn't really connect with it. Yeah. Let's get to our next category. Yes. Do you want to introduce this one? Yeah. This is the, hey, I actually like that album award. It's one for an artist that you end up kind of liking throughout the year. Because I know that there's always the temptation to release the hot take immediately.

And then you got a backpedal on Twitter or what have you and think, you know what? Now that I've actually withstood the initial narrative, I actually kind of like this. So I know for me this happens with both legacy artists. and new artists. Did you have any of those like that this year? Yeah, I did. I mean, I think in terms of like the 2021 artist,

the obvious answer for me was dry cleaning. Because I remember when New Long Lake came out and the reviews were published and people were very excited about it. I was a little resistant to it. We've talked about this on the show about, you know, British post-punk bands getting overhyped out of the gate.

and I think I felt that way a little bit with dry cleaning. And also, you know, Florence Shaw, the lead singer, I think her vocal style was a bit of an acquired taste. So it was just something I resisted for a while, but the record just wore me down over the year, and I really came to like it. And it ended up being a top 10 record for me. Just because I think also musically,

there's just more going on than I think I originally gave it credit for. I think, like, the guitar riffs are consistently, you know, muscular were exciting and just the contrast between the music and her voice. I just really got into it. I also have to say, too, in terms of like the legacy thing that you mentioned, I think that's a great point. And I feel obligated to say this on the show because going back to Big Thief, I feel like I've talked about the previous two Big Thief records, the ones that came out in 2019, UFOF, and two hands as being a little underwhelming. And I have to say that in light of listening to the new record, which I've been listening to a bunch, which has sent me back to

listening to the big thief catalog, I'm on board with those 2019 records now. I actually think that they're really good. Those seriously undervalued and underappreciated. Well, look, we're talking about ourselves. I know. We're talking about, and again, I feel obligated to say this on the show because I think I've said a couple of times on here

that I wasn't that into those albums, and I'm now into the full catalog. You know, I'm not just the first two albums' truther anymore. I like the whole catalog. So now it really is a question of like, the five albums test type thing. Are they going to go five for five with this next record? And so that's going to be an interesting conversation to have as we get into the next year. But what was it for you? Like what were the things that grew on you this year?

I mean, this is really going out of character by saying that like this year I really did try to do a deep dive on Sonic Youth. they're a band who's informed basically all of the indie rock that I actually like, but their extreme New Yorkness has really just been off-putting for me all these years. And so I actually listened to their earlier stuff, like, you know, leading up through, say, goo before they got into the whole like, you know, Thurston Moore guitar orchestra, like spoken word, NYC Ghost and Flower stuff. Yeah, you know, not totally on board, but I can. could say I like Sonic Youth. I also could say it's still more fun to make fun of them. I am not going

to get rid of that. But as far as like the contemporary bands go or artists, I think Tyler the creator in the past has just been a real generational divide type thing for me in the same way that I imagine people maybe 10 years older than myself, maybe never gotten to Wu Tang. But with rappers, I think if they stick around long enough, I tend to gravitate towards them because they're kind of like a life preserver in the realm of hip hop where it's like, I just don't get this new shit.

I need something that lets me feel that I'm like keeping up with the narrative. And, you know, the new record had DJ drama on it, which, you know, I loved all the mixtapes that came out in the mid-2000s. And he was actually, you know, really rapping again as opposed to like the kind of Neptunesy or NERD type R&B pop that he did with Flower Boy and Igor,

which I thought were very overrated. I'm never going to put his stuff like number one on my ear end list, but it also, the new record that he put out gave me the inclination to maybe revisit the past couple and see if I hadn't been overly harsh about them. I mean, it's entirely creator's like definitely a generation. artist, I think one that really puts the dividing line between, you know, a new realm of music writers and the old realm. And yeah, I straight up enjoyed this one a lot more than I thought I would. I mean, talk about a fascinating evolution over the past 10 years. Yeah, seriously. Goblin

2011 to, you know, to this year. A pretty incredible and fascinating arc for Tau of the creator, for sure. Our next category is a big one. This is a big category for us. Most annoying music story. The nominees are, Phoebe Bridgers smashes her guitar on S&L.

That was this, there's no way that was this year. That was this year, baby. Lana Del Rey defends the January 6th riders. The Daddy's Home Album Cycle. Oh, yeah. Classic. The Ken Adults like Olivier Rodriguez.

debate, both sides of that debate, and the Foxing Pitchfork Review. Yeah. A lot of heavy hitters in this category. I have a feeling I know where you're going to go on this. Who is the winner for you? Well, I mean, I would say, obviously, is Ice Age getting deep six from a lot of year-end list? But no, I'm...

Oh, yeah, I'm nominated. What kind of year-end would this be if we didn't, like, have a nice age gag? Man, I'm just like a... Like, even just bringing up these stories again just fills me with, like, like most Sizzlach choking on my own rage here. But, oh, God. But I got to say for me, it was the Foxing Pitchfork Review. And annoying because I couldn't really talk about it while it was actually happening

because I was torn between, okay, well, this is a band that is, you know, for many reasons, associated pretty closely with me. And likewise, you know, on the other side, it's like, you know, one of my employers. But, you know, it's not so much that it, I think that someone mentioned that like, hey, this is like just as Earth. This is like an old school Ian Cohen style review for an Ian Cohen ban. Ha, ha, ha, ha, how does it feel? I thought we had kind of gotten past that sort of stuff. But what annoyed me, I mean, if you can even get past the fact that it was like a very odd sort of punching down.

that you don't see a lot of. You know, people would ask, like, how did this become a bigger controversy than, like, the deaf heaven record or the Lord record or Kanye? Like, all these lightning rods, which were released, like, in a very close proximity to this one.

And it, I mean, it just to me just really struck me as, like, a real punching down in a way that, um, I, I just, unlike those, you just had to wonder. if the person writing that review actually heard the album or like listen to the band, you know, because it reminded me of all those ones that I did back in 2011.

I mean, I've reviewed more Foles albums than Foxing albums. They don't sound like Foles at all. So you're more annoyed about the review than like people overreacting to it? I'm annoyed about the review. I can live with it. But it's the reaction to it, how it became a huge story, you know, about people like, you know, non-musicians asking like can, you know, should, like, is it uncouth for Foxing to be as disappointed as they were about it? And, you know, as someone who's, like, received criticism for their writing, it's like, they should

absolutely, look, I don't think their manager should say, like, music writing as it should never exist. I think they kind of did an unforced error. I'll disagree with Joseph Marrow right there with that. But, you know, what annoyed me. Although the band themselves reacted great to it. I mean, the band themselves were like, hey, you know, that's fine. we're glad that they wrote about it. Yeah.

The manager, I think, you know. Off the grid, yeah. Yeah, he went rogue, I think, with that in a way that he shouldn't have because I think he heard the band that he represents. But something I wanted to bring up with you, and we've talked about this before. But, like, one aspect of this foxing story is that I do feel like, again, that there's this chip on the shoulder that people in the punk emo community have about pitchfork specifically, but about music coverage in general. about like their band's not getting enough respect. And I've seen this again with turnstile on year end list, people saying like,

well, this is the token hardcore band on all the lists. Why aren't they're more hardcore bands? It's like, do you know how many genres don't get any albums on year end lists? You know, I mean, give me a break.

It's like if you're in an underground scene, why do you care about mainstream publication lists? It just seems to me to be, it's like an experience. excuse to feel like oh nobody respects us nobody gives us enough credit it's like but who cares like why is this something that matters so much i would say for them it does matter because you know i interview them it's like they all grew up reading it and you know i think for a band like foxing it really is like a key to getting to a different level um but also it what annoys me now is that this is going

it like just it just haunts a very very good album like people are like well, you know what, any publicity's good publicity. This is, it would actually be better than if it, like, you know, it's got a seven and no one talked about it. It's like, that's not true. Like, they, you know, they've gone off Twitter for the most part. They don't seem to be having as much fun online. Now, mind you, they're going back on tour with Manchester Orchestra, which is, you know,

another band, which has experienced the slings and arrows of the critical community. It just- They don't care, though. Yeah, they don't, they're too, they're big enough where they don't have to care, but. I mean, but like I've talked to him. Like, they honest, I think they have a great attitude about it, which I think is the right attitude that, you know, our success does not depend ultimately on a pitchfork review. Because, I mean, let's say pitchfork gave that record an 8.1, you know, would it have gotten as much attention as, like, the review that they got? I mean, there's no way that that would have happened.

And I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, I, and I, I, and I, I, and I, I, and I, I, I don't think that much better. Unless pitchforked a. decided to make them like a, like one of their pet acts, you know, that would be maybe the only way. But if it was just like a nice review, I don't think it would have made that big of a difference. I think that it just kind of like, it's got, it put a stink on the record that isn't going to go away. Maybe not. But for people who really care about foxing, I don't think it'll matter. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm just annoyed at the fact. annoyed at the fact that like the one punching down that happened was for that. There were much more deserving people. There were much more deserving people. Well, my most annoying music story, and this was hard to choose. I actually just changed my choice. Oh. Because I feel like we had to talk about this because it was one of the most talked about annoying music stories of the year. So I got to give the nod to Phoebe Bridgers smashing her guitar on SNL. And I chose this one because I think it's a great example and we're going to shout out

Kill a Cow. Again, Twitter user Kill a Cow. A listener of the show, his Steph Curry tweet, you know, the idea of inventing someone to get mad at on Twitter. Yeah. And that's basically what this was. And I'm implicating myself in this because I think I tweeted about this along with many other people. But, you know, it was basically an instance of like a few random people complaining that Phoebe Bridger smashed her guitar. Brooklyn Dad Defiant, I think, was the main. I guess he's like, he has like a big following, I guess. But he's also a total like resistance zombie, moron. You know, we don't need to worry about him.

But it's like one tweet. I think David Crosby didn't like it either. Brooklyn Dad Defiant and David Crosby. But it just becomes this thing where. people feel to need to put the cape on for Phoebe Bridgers to defend her right to smash a guitar on SNL, just because a couple people tweeted something. And that drives so much of the discourse now. And a lot of times it's people who don't even have a platform,

or a platform much smaller than Brooklyn Dad Defiant and David Crosby, just some rando who will tweet something. And then a million people will quote tweet it. And they'll defend the right of Phoebe Bridgers to smash a guitar when there's no threat to her. She's not really being criticized in any kind of real way. It's just like this phony, trumped up conversation that happens. And it just happens like every single day in social media. And this was, I think, one of the most egregious examples of that.

I have so much trouble even getting up the energy to like relitigate this one, which I guess proved that it is indeed the most annoying story of 2021 because I could definitely like gin up some anger about the people who like invented the Olivia Rodrigo haters or the people. Oh yeah. You know or like it's just with the guitar smashing. It's, remember like all the Olivia Rodriguez reviews that were like,

she made a great album deal with it. Yeah. Oh my God. She's the new rock star and you can't handle it. There was all these people, all these, like, you know, rockist monsters out there just waiting to discredit Olivier Rodriguez when, in fact, she has a tremendous amount of not just industry support, but critical support. I mean, that record was very well received. Yeah, and continues to be. But it was just like the defiance of the headlines on so many of those reviews who was just like.

Don't kick us rock people when we're down. You know what I mean? Like, let, like, I honestly just can't. I cannot. wait to I really wonder if her next album is going to be like one of those like Lord or Claro or Billy Eilish type things where it's like a retreat from fame and uh I really wonder if that's the way that's going to happen I hope not again like I said I'd like her to make a dukey like your duke's like this like a broad appeal pop punk record I think that would be amazing don't

make the depressed record about anxiety where everything sounds really quiet and everything's a ballad. Like make a big shiny rock record. I would be first in line for an album like that. We shall see if like Pop Punkin is still like the dominant mode of music in 2023. Well, we'll see what happens. Let's move on to our next category.

Do you want to do this? Do you want to read these nominees? Absolutely. So this is the most memory hold album of 2021. We were talking about before, although like honorable mention for Kings of Leon, But we forgot to put in this category. We forgot to. It was so memory hold that we forgot it actually existed.

So we're going to nominate Laudadale Ray specifically Blue Bannisters. Casey Musgraves. I want to say Casey Musgraves because I get her wrong and say Casey Chambers, multiple episodes. Drake certified lover boy as opposed to Scary Hours 2, which did come out earlier this year, which I think was just as equally good as a nominee. and we just threw in at the end Ice Age, Lord, Weezer, both albums, Food Fighters.

Greno Van Fleet, I think, is a dark horse. And also, like, I know that people were talking about, like, the ska revival. Was that memory hold by the year-end list? Well, what were the big ska albums that would have been in the room? There were, I mean, it was a cool story. I was happy to see it, but it's like,

yeah, like getting an article on Brooklyn Vegan isn't like the equivalent of the impression that I get being on the radio every five minutes. Well, it's like Rosenstock's, Jeff Rodenstock. Yeah, Skodream, right. Did that come out this year? Yes, it was last year. No, no Dream was last year. Scott Dream was this year.

Okay, so that would have been the album to do, but that's sort of connected to his previous record. It's not a full-fledged standalone record. Maybe that is what affected it. I mean, Jeff Rosenstock could do. an, you know, original Sky record that could get that kind of shine.

Yeah, maybe. We shall see. We shall see. So my choice for this is Blue Bannisters, the Lennedell Ray record. She put out two albums this year. The first one was Chem Trails

Over the Country Club. I saw that on a bunch of year-end list. I think John Caramanica put that on his list in the New York Times. So that's a pretty big one. Blue Bannisters to me, that record, I think it came out in November, October, November.

And it really just seemed to come and go. And one thing I'm factoring in with Lana Del Rey is just the overwhelming acclaim that her previous album, previous to Kemp Trails, Norman fucking Rockwell, which came out in 2019, just measuring that acclaim versus what I thought was much more muted, certainly for Kemp Trails and for Blue Bannisters, I thought, was kind of non-existent. I mean, with Norman fucking Rockwell, people were literally calling her like one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

I mean, the pitchfork review of that is likening her to almost like every single notable rock songwriter. Joni Mitchell and so forth. Bob Dylan. So to me, that's the answer to this. Because again, it's one thing to say like, well, people don't remember the Food Fighters record. Well, of course, you know, they're at a time in their career where they're more of a touring act. I don't think that there's an ex-well. Although that album, I did see it come up on some year-end list.

I think there's like a sneaky argument that that's like their best album in a decade. Craig Jenkins put it on his list for Vulture. I mean, it probably is their best album in a decade. I don't think so. I mean, I'm saying that as someone who could not give less of a shit about a new food fighters. Like, if you tell me it's their best album in a decade, A, it's probably true. And B, like, that's a pretty low bar to clear. Yeah, that's true.

What's your choice for most memory hold album? All right. So, I mean, I think the inclusion of Drake is instructive because it feels like, I mean, oh, like, no one's really like talking about it. Like that album, Drake albums never, ever, ever go away. Like, you know, way too sexy, got nominated for a Grammy. It still is on year end lists for magazines that also, like, do articles about, like, shoes. So I don't think that's it. And also, Casey Musgraves, I think people kind of came around on that one.

For me, the answer, if we're talking about straight up indie rock, I think we got to mention Darkside, the Nico Jarre and Dave Harrington Project. Like, that album was like one of 2013's, like, big, big releases. And that just kind of came and went without much attention being given to it. Like, I got no blowback for that review. But the answer here's got to be. Lord, solar power. Because I think with every artist that we had mentioned, whether it's Lana Del Rey, whether it's Casey

Musgraves, whether it's, you know, Billy Eilish, big-time artists who made more muted albums, all of them have people caping for them in some capacity. But solar power, I think that one just really fell off the grid. in a way I mean I think it is in a position to be rediscovered in future years particularly depending on whether Lord makes another quickie album after this to kind of get the momentum back or just like never makes another album

which is also maybe even possible but yeah I think that one like I didn't see people even make an attempt to call that one underrated on year end list you know this is an album that you snuck in at the end of our nominees and to your point, it's an album I forgot about. It's an album I probably should have put in the,

because I thought of Lana Del Rey right away. I thought of Casey Musgraves right away, but I didn't think about the Lord record. I mean, does the Clare-Role record also fit in here? I mean, like, because I like that record when it came out, but it doesn't seem to have hit in the same way that her previous record. I think it does.

I think that it does. I think that it does have a fan base. I think it's a lot more muted. I think that it maybe snuck into a few year end lists here and there. But I don't see it having the same impact on Clero's career as Solar Power did with Lord. She's just kind of operating on a much different level as far as popularity. I think that she, I, like, I'm not as like, I don't see, I see Sling as kind of a left turn as opposed to a, the flop era

the same way solar power did. Like solar powers, the rejection of that album just seemed very, um, the rejection of that album just seemed like very much like, wait a, this, this isn't like a disappointment.

This is actively bad. Yeah, and it's interesting with Lord because obviously she came out in 2013, that record, pure heroin and the song Royals, which was a huge hit. Yeah. And then melodrama comes out,

and that's a big, critical hit and obviously has a lot of people who love it. But it wasn't a huge commercial hit. No. It didn't have a song like Royals that, you know, that put her, you know, at the top of radio airplay. Sort of like when the pawn for Fiona Apple in the same sense that nothing was as big as like criminal or shadow boxing, but, you know, nonetheless. But then it's like instead of making extraordinary machine, Fiona Apple makes a record like solar power, you know, like it, you know what I mean? It's like, I think Fiona Apple, she reinvented herself as someone who didn't need to make hit singles because she just made these really ambitious records that, you know, people love. It's interesting to me, just like, you know, as you were saying, like, how this is going to affect Lord.

It's hard for me to figure out how popular she is right now. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I mean, this could be a record that does dramatically downscale the amount of high. hype her fourth record. Like, is Lord going to be in the arcade fire, like playing a half-empty MSG

type part of their career? I don't know. I think she could sell out MSG, but like, can she sell out an arena in Chicago or Kansas City? Yeah. That's something I would question. All right, so we're at

our final category of the night. I don't know. Is this like the biggest award? I don't think we... I don't, I don't select between my favorite children so and I'm also not going to you know act like any of the like they're all number one they're all great yeah I mean if we were if you're gonna structure this like an actual word ceremony we probably should have put most annoying music story at the end yeah that's like the best picture

of the indie casties but it's okay I do like the the idea that all these categories are equal they all mean the same to us our final category is most 2021 album of 2021 the albums are or the nominees are St. Vincent Olivia Rodrigo Taylor Swift for the red redo

and Lil Nas X What is your winner in this category? I mean all of these are incredible nominees like this is a really difficult choice

but if we're thinking about not the best album of 21 2021 but like the one that I think really sums up what it was like to engage with music. I have to have to have to have little Nazax in there. And I don't mean that as like a diss or even like praise for that matter. I just think that little Nazax as an artist represents kind of what I would consider like post quality in that like from most like it's like I've heard the songs and you know they seem pretty good. But like the

music itself like almost doesn't even matter. And I think you could throw like doja cap. in there as well, like, even though Doja Cat has, like, you know, huge radio hits in the same way a little Nas X does. The fact that, like, this album exists was all that really needed to happen to me. People, when this album actually came out, like, it was, I mean, you want to talk about, like, the comparisons that were happening with, like, Lana Del Rey. I mean, like, this was, like, this is Little Richard meets David Bowie, meets, like, Elvis Presley.

you had to refer to Little Nas X strictly in terms of like the rock and roll hall of fame like stuff you learn about and like elementary school type artists and you can I also don't think that Lil Nas X like you have like I don't think you'll hear his songs in the in the supermarket like you don't you could actually not engage with their music at all but there's still a cultural force and so I think that this this signifies the way, like, I mean, what is IndyCast, but like a podcast talking about music without talking about the actual music sometimes? Yeah, I would say that like Lil Nazax really embodies that part of 2021,

where it felt like I'm not even reviewing music anymore. I'm reviewing narrative. So my choice is, and one reason I picked this one, because I felt like we could not let the IndyCassies go by. without digging into this album. Yeah. It gave us so much this year. Yeah.

So that's why it's my most 21, my most 2021 album of 2021. And that is Daddy's Home by St. Vincent. And similar to what you were saying about, you know, the discourse taking center stage. I mean, this was another example of that happening. Not by design. I don't think. I think, you know, there was a narrative with this. record that, you know, St. Vincent, she won, she made this concept record about her dad going to prison

and then coming out of prison. And I think she wanted to make this irreverent 70s Bowie Funk type album with a naughty edge. And it just got away from her a little bit and how people talked about it. And I think that's a very 20-21 type thing to happen. I'm also intrigued by, the idea, and we've talked about this in other episodes about how, you know, in the early part of the 2010s, there was this period where the big indie stars of the aughts, it seemed like they were pushed aside a bit for a new generation of artists to rise up. And I wonder if we're in a similar stage right now. Because if we're talking about, you know, memory hold albums or albums that didn't really stick the landing this year, you know, we have like the

St. Vincent record. We have the Lord record. We have the Lana Del Rey record. And this is not to say, I mean, their next records might be great. Yeah. And they may just be going on. But I do wonder if we're at a point where even if they do make good records after this, if their time at the center is passing and we're now going to see a new generation of stars emerge in the next few years. Yeah. And I feel like Daddy's home to me. It feels like a little bit of a best. Bellwether potentially in that regard as this is like a record that it you know similar to the Lord record it just feels like it wasn't executed as well as it should have been and it feels like it could mark a turn in a career. I would say that's just as true for like yeah like as in 2017 where you know LCD sound system and the national and grizzly bear and uh

broken social scene put out records that basically put them in classic rock. I wonder if that's the year that we saw with like St. Vincent, Lord and so forth, where when we look back several years from now, it seems more of like a pivot. It's like, wow, yeah, this is like old head music now. Right, right. Yeah, we're, if you're going to go see them live, it's more about the catalog than whatever new album they're putting out. I wonder if... Babysitter, core.

Yeah, and, you know, of course, it's impossible to know at this point, but, you know, I feel like there's historical precedence for this sort of thing happening. And this decade is going to have its own stars, obviously. And some of them we're seeing, you know, maybe Olivia Rodriguez is going to be one of those decade-defining stars. Or maybe a person who hasn't come out yet. You know, it might be a person who's coming out next year or in 2023. So that's very exciting to think about And we'll see what happens But we will be there

To review it and to hash it out In 2022 and hopefully beyond But for now we're going to sign off This is our last episode of the year Thank you for listening Thank you for attending the indie casties We'll be back with more news and reviews And hashing out trends in the new year

Yes And if you're looking for more music recommendations sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to Uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.