Indiecast - The Best American Indie Bands Of All Time

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

After a quick Sportscast about a big recent trade affecting Ian's favorite NBA team, Steven and Ian settle in to talk about America's 250th birthday — or the lack of talk about America's 250th birthday. Then they get some festivities going of their own with a conversation about the best American indie bands, focusing on four categories — the best of the 20th century, the best of the 21st century, the best of the last 10 years, and the best to never sign to a major label. In Recommendation Corner, Ian recommends The Ritornello Form and Steven goes for SML. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indicast is presented by Amazon Music. Hello everyone and welcome to Indicast. On the show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, in honor of America's birthday, we talk about the best American indie bands of all time. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's ready for the Jalen Brown era. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

See, I was previously in my Paul George era, which was being a podcaster who has, you know, being a podcaster who had a prescription pill probably living in Philadelphia, but now I'm transitioning to Jalen Brown, which is I think also being a podcaster, but just kind of more intellectual online annoyance. So yeah, I think this, I think this fits. Yeah, so all the bad boy podcasters from Philly apparently are just hitting the prescription pills. Yeah, we're doing a quick sports cast here at the top of the episode. For those who don't know, big trade of the NBA. And we're talking about this because it pertains to one of Ian's teams. The Boston Celtics, they traded Jalen Brown, one of their best players.

Also something of a malcontent, I guess, this year. Traded to the 76ers. The 76ers sent Paul George, who is Playoff P, right? That's his nickname, Playoff P. One of my favorites. One of the best. And it's a self-given nickname because no one, I didn't even really know what that means. off P, I guess because his name's Paul.

Yeah, and he, like... The P connotation is not very good. Yeah, he just, I think he had like a couple good runs in Indiana where he would get them, I think, to the conference semifinals, but, you know, he never really won much of anything. So it was a self-given nickname, which is why I love it. It also reminds me of Swaggy Pee, which is also an incredible nickname, given the person who has it. I was going to say, the Friends of Pee, the Rentals song from the Mid-Bendman. 90s, a little more indie cast-coded.

The Sixers, I think you guys sent some first-round draft picks. Yeah, and some second-round draft picks, which, you know, there's about 70 in any given year, apparently. Well, yeah, and, like, in the NBA, I mean, really, if you're not in what, like, the top 10 draft picks in the first round, like, how much do draft picks really matter in the NBA? Does it seem as impactful as it is in the NFL? Yeah. Right? Or am I talking on my ass with that? I feel like I'm repeating things I've heard on podcasts, but I think that, but that's true.

Because like a second round pick, I know that Jalen Brunson was a second round pick, but for the most part. Yergich, yeah. Yeah, you can get some people, but I feel like for the most part it's first round in the NBA. I mean, I mean, I don't know. I should stop talking. You know, I'm trying to act like I'm Ryan Rissillo here at the top of the episode. I'm definitely not deep into the NBA knowledge. But I mean, for you, as a Sixers fan, I mean, I guess this is a good thing.

I mean, this seems like another big trade this season. I mean, Yonis, you know, going to Miami being another big one. It just seems like all the teams in the East are doing these trades that are at best making them as good as they already were. But in many cases, it seems like they're getting worse. Like all the teams in the East are just turning into this like tasteless gruel. And I don't know if they, maybe they were so inspired by the feel good story of the Nix finally winning an NBA title that they're like, let's just lay down and let them roll again next season.

The East just looks like a like a bunch of mid right now. It is. But I also think that the New York Knicks entering 20, 25, 26 looked kind of mid so they can. can figure, you know what, maybe things break a certain way and it happens to us. But, you know, you're correct in that it seems like we are having a mono team in the East where, you know, there's just like a bunch of players being traded. And I don't think it makes any of them, like, legitimately better. I think you'll appreciate Jalen Brown and that he's like kind of the inverse ice age where, you know, the, the, like the actual stats look good. But the analytics say

he's maybe the seventh best player on the Celtics. And he was so mad online about that. Like he was the guy who I think broke down tape after the Sixers beat the Celtics and like talked about like he was like podcasting immediately after they got embarrassed on a national stage. I thought that was pretty admirable. But I think Adam Silver had said, you know, at some type of conference that he admired the NFL and parody and how every single NFL team has somewhat of a legitimate shot to think they can win a Super Bowl if things break right. I hate that.

I think the NBA is at its best when they have Supervill and Superteams, like the pistons and the Bulls and the 90s, Celtics Lakers. And now, you know, the Knicks can't run it back because of the second apron. I have cared way too much about the second apron. These people are billionaires. Just pay it. I am a complete abolitionist for salary cap. LeBron James is underpaid, Steph Curry's underpaid.

Paul George is not underpaid. He's making like $50, $60 million next year. But I want teams to benefit from their foresight and also pay for their mistakes. Like I do think the Nets should be terrible for the next 25 years. I think the Bucks should be running out Damon Lillard on one leg and Janus just sitting on the bench. Now you're going too far. And I got to say, if you're going to knock the. NFL for parody. Didn't the Indiana Hoosiers just win the national title in college football? I mean,

to me, that's a sign that as long as you've got some like Fat Cat tech billionaire that went to your college, that you could probably be competitive in college football. So I feel like that thing that you're saying about the NFL isn't quite on the level. The thing with salary caps, I agree with you on a worker level. Like if I wouldn't want a salary cap in my. I wouldn't want a salary cap in my field, but I do have to say that as a fan, I do think it's generally better for competition. And it's easy for you to say the net should be bad for 25 years. What if that was your team that was bad for 25 years? How about you to be bad for five years?

Okay. Like, that's a long time. I think it's nice to watch teams that are fun to watch and are competitive. That's my controversial take on sports, that things should be fun to watch and competitive. and it shouldn't just be the same teams winning all the time. Speaking of the same teams winning all the time, let's talk about America here. It's our 250th birthday.

I say our because we're both Americans on Saturday. And it's weird to me because I'm not the most overtly patriotic person in the world. But I like parties. I like celebrations. I like, you know, revelry in the summertime. And I feel like this event is so lacking in buzz. It's, and I know why it's lacking in buzz. I mean, I live in the country.

I can see what's happening. I know it's definitely related to Trump. It's related to ongoing trends in America. People feeling very dispirited and whatever you want to call the American dream. You know, people still believing that in that are not. not. But I do know that Americans like to party at least. Like we like to have a good time. And this 250, America 250, it's just striking to me by like how little party is going on. It's like the anti- Andrew WK event of the year. We are not partying hard. No one is talking about this.

Maybe I'm in a bubble. Maybe it is happening. But I know that there was like this America's Fair happening in D.C. I don't know if you saw any clips of this. I did. There's like nobody there. Like they're showing... Black Keys playing the arena. Exactly. It's like they... Whoever booked the Black Keys tour,

they're the ones planning this America 250 celebration because there's nothing going on. No one is showing up. There's no enthusiasm. And look, I was born the year after the centennial, you know, back in 1976. So I wasn't around for that. But I've seen documentaries. I've seen, you know, various references to that.

It seemed like people cared back then. And you think that's 1976. It's like right after Watergate is right after we got our butts kicked in Vietnam. It's a dark time in America. I mean, people were not thrilled. You got, you know, like gas lines and, you know, just terrible things happening in the mid-70s. And yet people seem to get excited. for the centennial.

Again, like, I've seen documentary clips. There's, like, parades. You got, like, the cheerleaders throwing the baton in the air, whatever that thing is. A majorette, I think that's called? A majorette? Maybe? I think so.

Something like, you got, you got that thing going on. No one's throwing anything in the air for this 250th. It's a bummer to me, man. Like, I don't care about Trump. It has nothing to do with him. I just wish that this could be a bigger, deal. I think as a lover of parties, I'm disappointed by how this thing has been a total wet fart, really, this year. Well, I mean, you brought up Andrew WK and of course his most popular song,

Party Hard, but he does also have on I Get Wet a song called I Love NYC. And I think that we are experiencing right now in America with the World Cup and the Knicks winning. So, yeah, The World Cup's been amazing. Oh, it's been awesome. Even though, like, it's been, even that's been kind of depressing because you'll see the Homeland Security and Department of War Twitter feeds, like tweet about defending our soil or what have you. And they cannot. That's just Twitter, though. You don't have to go on Twitter.

Most people aren't on Twitter. So they're not seeing that. Yeah, they're on blue sky or threads nowadays. But. They're on nothing or they're on Facebook, you know, with their grandparents. Yeah. Facebook Marketplace. that's really the last true social media site that's pure.

But yeah, I mean, with the 250th, I've had some friends who have questioned whether they are complicit in the American experiment if they celebrate the 4th July. But, you know, this year it's on a Saturday. I am doing the exact thing that our current administration. Wait, wait. So you have friends that literally said that? Like, am I complicit?

Yeah, they feel conflicted. You know, it's like, I don't feel super stoked about celebrating the 4th of July. But it's like, okay, but if you celebrate Christmas, are you a hardcore Christian? Or do you just like to give gifts and get together with friends and family and drink eggnog? You know, like, to me, that's what the Fourth of July is. Like, you don't have to be, you can be like agnostic when it comes to America. But it's like fireworks are cool. Having cookouts is cool.

You know, watching baseball on TV is cool. Like, you know, these things are fun. They don't have to, it's not like you're signing off. on American foreign policy or domestic economic, you know, policy or anything like that. I mean, it's just about America. It's just about having a party, I guess. And this should be a big party, I think. Yeah.

America's 250. To me, it's sort of like when we got that stimulus check with Donald Trump's name on it, like, I don't have to like the person who gave it to me, but I'm going to spend it how I see fit. And I think that what I'm doing on the 4th of July is something that would make the current administration proud, which is to say that I am going to watch a women's soccer game at the same venue. The last time I was there, I saw the Boy Genius concert where they had a land acknowledgement before they went on.

Ain't that America to quote John Cougar Malencamp. Yeah, I actually, I heard ROC in the USA at Ralphs the other day, and I'm kind of amazed that John Cougar Melanchamp made that song and that it hasn't also been covered by, you know, your Tucker Wetmore's of the world. I think that's a real guy. sure that it hasn't been, though? Like, have you been paying close attention to Tucker Whitmore's whereabouts? I mean, I'm sure someone has done that song. That's true, yeah. You know, at least live, maybe not on record. You're the expert, I mean, having written a book largely about

Heartland Rock, was there any sort of born in the USA type undertones to ROCK in the USA, or is it just about how America rocks? Well, I mean, I think he's talking about American music more than America itself. Because a lot of those Heartland Rockers, you know, they were critical of America, you know, especially in the Reagan era, the way that the government was cutting the safety net at the time and how that was landing on working class Americans. So to me, those guys always represented what I love about America, where they believed in the idealism of America, the America that we want to believe America is, and they were writing about it and addressing an audience where those things. things were pertinent, you know, and it was a time when you could have a song, like R.O.C.K. in the USA, you could, you could scoff at it. But, you know, the thing about a song like that is that he was able to address that song to a wide audience that was into it, regardless of

their political persuasion, in a way that you can't really do now. It feels like anyone who now is going to be doing like a John Mellon camp cover or a homage to him, it just feels like it's automatically mega-coded. Like that's been totally annexed. And if someone maybe of the left is going to bring that in, they're going to do it in more of a vibes way. You know, they're going to wear the, they're going to wear the denim jacket, but there's probably not going to be any political content to it at all. Like, there's not like a lot of, like that kind of music. Like, that kind of music. that Heartland Rock, it feels like from the left, it's not as political-coded unless it's an older person doing it. Unless it's like a John Mellon camp is still writing songs and being, you know, speaking out against the guy in the White House right now.

You know, and certainly Bruce Springsteen is still doing that. You got me pontificating about Heartland Rock. Yeah, this is a very dangerous, very dangerous tangent. We did a lot, a lot, 10 minutes of Mellencast. every episode. I know. Everyone's going to fall asleep and a half hour later, I'm still going to be talking about reganomics and trickle-down economics and Roy Bitton synthesizer sound. Before we get, because we do have this great conversation about American indie rock bands here at a minute, and I'm excited to get to that. But since we're on the America tip, I did want to

bring up quick, just to do a quick TV cast here. I started watching Landman this week, the the Taylor Sheridan show. It's been on for three seasons. One of the most popular shows in America. I don't know if you've seen this show. I'm curious why you chose Landman and not Yellowstone or the other shows in the Sheridan verse. I don't know.

Well, I was inspired because Taylor Sheridan, who's the producer-creator of Landman, as well as like 20 other shows. You mentioned... Not tour. You mentioned Yellowstone. He does... I forget the...

It's like 1823. Yeah, there's one with a bunch of numbers in. Right. The numbers ones, I don't know the exact numbers, but he's got those shows. I don't think he created Tulsa King, but he's a producer of that. The Madison. That's the one that's new. The Madison.

That's with Michelle Pfeiffer, I think, and Kurt Russell. He has this formula where he sets these shows in the middle of the country. There's usually some sort of crime element going on. And he takes a star from the 80s and 90s, someone who used to be in films and now is doing a TV show. So he had Kevin Costner on Yellowstone, Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren on one of the number shows. Kurt Russell and Michelle Pfeiffer and the Madison. Billy Bob Thornton is in Landman. And I like Billy Bob Thornton.

I'm a fan. I love his music first. And then I realize that, oh, he's an actor too. But no, he's good in the show. But I was inspired because Taylor Sheridan did this interview on Bill Simmons podcast, which was amazing. If you haven't listened to it, even if you don't know who Taylor Sheridan is, I recommend listening to this. If you're a fan of like megalomaniacal, super rich Hollywood people who turn their nose up at Hollywood, who have like an attitude about it, who have like a sort of like a bad boy pocket.

against the Hollywood establishment, even though they are now the epitome of the Hollywood estate? I mean, if no one, I mean, if Taylor Sheridan is not the Hollywood establishment at this point, then no one is. I mean, he is the biggest brand in TV. But it's an amazing interview because he just rails against studio executives and how he never takes notes and how he's this maverick, essentially. He's acting like he's Francis Ford Coppola directing Apocalypse Now.

He's at the con film festival at the press conference, banging his fist on the table, talking about this magnum opus. And then you watch the show, and it's like, mega dudes rock soap opera. That's how I would describe it. Just like mega dudes being awesome, drinking Mikhailobaltra at like 8 o'clock in the morning, leering at like busty blondes who were like just coming out of the woodwork and saying awesome things. And just the most preposterous show. It is a terrible show. And I'm really enjoying it. I hear that it gets pretty bad in season two.

Oh. I love how there's like a there's like a there's like a peak era of Landman and then that lasts one whole season. Well, I mean, it's bad now, but it's it's it's very watchable. It's a great summertime show. I mean, like a turn your brain off. and just like watch this preposterous set of plot circumstances unfold. It's great. It's also interesting to me too because we, you know,

I've talked about Alt country this year. Alt country, of course, is having a moment in the mid-2020s, like a lot of records like that in the indie world. And then there's another wing of that kind of music, which is the Taylor Sheridan wing, where, like, if you watch his shows, there's like a boilerplate soundtrack, where it's just one band after another that is doing this

like post Chris Stapleton Traveler bluesy country rock where you got like a growly singer you've got like the solitary twangy guitar cord that goes bwreel like at the start of the song that is like okay we're either going to like buy a Chevy truck right now or we're going to hear some down home shit like one of the two things are going to happen And there's just one song after another like that in these shows.

And I think like that kind of music and this kind of show, they both stream extremely well. Like the elites, you media elites on the coasts, you don't get it. You know, you don't write about this music or these shows, but like they're huge. It's like some of it's, it feels like in a way, like this is pop music in a way right now. In terms of the numbers. It's like the secret form of pop music No one wants to talk about But it's everywhere

And so I always laugh about that Like you just hear that Prowe It's sort of like the down home version Of the James Bond chord It sounds like Right exactly You'll see like a pickup truck

In the distance Driving into the horizon And you're Boiro You have like three or four of those moments In every Landman episode But it's comforting You know, it's reassuring to me at the end of the day when I don't want to think at all about anything.

Yeah, I haven't seen any of these shows myself, but my favorite television-inspired entertainment of the past couple of years is listening to Chapo Trapp House recap episodes of Tulsa King. And they're not like making fun of it. They're just relaying what happened without editorializing. And it sounds like the most awesome show imaginable. Like Sylvester Stallone is this maga, dudes rock wish fulfillment. he's like 85 years old and like 5 foot 5 but he's an unstoppable fighting machine like an irresistible sex symbol and also the canniest criminal operator in america and i'm not saying that like this is representing like the the real america or that it's secretly genius or what have you i think this this

this universe resists tv recap brain in a way that has absorbed stuff like love island and summer house which is intentionally dumb, but like self-aware sort of dumb. I do like how this is more like Conair and The Rock in the 90s, where if you were to watch it now, it's like, this is stupid, and yet stuff blows up. It has a cool villain, a cool hero, and you're not sure which one you like more. But this stuff sounds appealing because there's so much of the other TV

that we actually watch or at the very least indoor. I think on the exact opposite of this is Apple TV, which has kind of this house style of wanting to be trashy but clever about it, but socially upstanding. And you end up with these comedies that aren't really funny, like your friends and neighbors or maximum pleasure guaranteed, where we endure them much more than we enjoy them. And I like how the Taylor-Lheridan universe is it knows what it is, but it's not self-aware. And I think there's a distinction between those two things. Yeah, and I wonder if the people around Taylor Sheridan are aware of how silly it is, but he's not. Because I do think that some of the actors bring the right spirit to, like John Ham is in this show. You mentioned your friends and neighbors.

He's on that show too. John Hamm, he's like Seth Rogen. He's just in like every other TV show at this point, which I'm a fan of John Hamm. So I'm happy to see him there. I do feel like he's he's got to be aware of how stupid this show is. But he's bringing, you know, but he's playing like a, you know, the head of the oil company. I think he's got some self-aware bluster in his performance. It sounds like what he did in Fargo, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Although that's a much better show. It's a much better show, but it's like him playing a villain rather than this, like, lovable scamp. Well, he's not a villain, though. He's like a, he's like Billy Bob Thornton's boss. Gotcha. So, but he's not the bad guy.

But he's just like this blustery. And he'll do rants about the federal government every now and then. You feel like, oh, yeah, Taylor Sheridan is cutting one off. Because, you know, like, in that Bill Simmons interview, he, like, is railing against California, how much he hates Los Angeles. So he's definitely getting some of those monologues into Landman, which is entertaining. I mean, to me, this show, like, when I remember, like, when Girls was on, you know, they got so much media coverage. because so many people who work in the media could look at girls and they felt like, oh, this is about me. And there was something about that show that was almost like not a fantasy, but it was like, you got to see a version of yourself on screen that was maybe a little idealized.

Yeah. Even when Lena Dunham was doing terrible things. At least it was, she's on television and there was something, I think, aspirational about that. I think this show was like that for a lot of mega guys. You know, this is girls for mega guys. You want to be like Billy Bob Thornton You wish you could be as cool as him And even when he's screwing up

And doing bad things There's something glamorous about him Because it's Billy Bob Thornton You know So everyone needs a show like that I guess We all want to look on the screen You know

We're still waiting for the The prestige drama About podcasters who are music critics I mean hopefully that'll happen And so Well isn't there a show like that You told me what the... Isn't there a show about a music critic?

Yeah, this show called... It's called Loudermilk. It has Ronnamingston, and it's about a music critic. And again, I'm kind of riffing here. It is about a music critic who gets sober and, like, has to make amends to the people he wronged. But, like, he still has that kind of snarky attitude when he's doing it.

So he's, like, kind of this real talker. Every preview I've seen. of it makes it look like the single worst show in television history. Even like, and I'm not saying, oh, you know, this is like a little too close to the bone. It's, I think it's more a matter of this was a not good idea. And because there's so much streaming that can happen right now, you just need stuff to fill it. Yeah, I would, you know what, I would love to get our louder milkheads in the mailbag. We haven't done a mailbag in a while, but if you got Loudermilk takes, we're all ears.

I might have to watch Loudermilk. This sounds like my girls, you know, my chance to see myself on screen. Representation is important. Let's get to Best American Indie bands. I noticed this conversation was happening again online this week. I feel like this comes up periodically. It's a perennial conversation. Best American bands.

People are always arguing. about who are the best bands from America? And I feel like this is a tireless topic because on one hand there are, you know, countless great American bands out there that you could mention. But on the other, there aren't that many like dominant great American bands. By which I mean like just no brainer. Of course it would be this band in the same way that there is for England, for instance. Like if we were going to talk about best British bands, most people are going to say the Beatles. Some people might say something else. They might say a band from their own generation. But I feel like the hierarchy of British bands is pretty sad. Or if you're doing Australian bands,

you know, probably going to say ACDC. Maybe you could say in excess. But, you know, it's clear. Whereas with America, I don't think that there is like a clear cut answer. So it just lends itself to debate and again people bring this up all the time so I thought for our show for America's birthday because we're going to make a big deal out of America's birthday god damn it even if no one else is I thought it would be fun for us to talk about our choices for the best American indie bands of all time and I have four different categories here that we can go through best American indie band of the 20th century so maybe like a lot of the obvious choices we'll put in that category Best American indie band of the 21st century, so the last 26 years.

Then Best American Indie Band of the last 10 years. So maybe more for active bands. And then this was your idea. It's a good one. Best American indie band that never signed to a major label. That actually winnows it down pretty considerably. So why don't we get started? Ian, who is your pick for the Best American Indy band of the 20th century?

Well, this one was super difficult because, as I've said many a time here, my musical history does not extend beyond a Siamese dream. Yeah, you've only got seven years in the 20th century. It's not much. Yeah, although you could consider Gish to be an indie release, which is hilarious because it was like kind of a fake indie release. But when I'm thinking about the best American indie bands of the 20th century, I imagine we're going to have a lot of the same opinions. but to me it comes down to the band that in my mind defined college rock versus the band that defined underground rock, which is REM versus Sonic Youth. And these are bands that I admire a lot. Do I love them?

It's tougher to say, but I think I have to go tail the tape here because these bands do have a lot in common that they can face off on. Athens, Georgia versus New York City, not a contest. R.M. wins that one. Shout to Weaver D. Shout to the 41. Shout to all the times. I saw Mike Mills in person when I lived there.

And he was wearing kind of monster-era gear. He looked like he just stepped off that What's the Frequency Kenneth video. As far as who had the better song with the rapper, I think Sonic Youth's cool thing absolutely washes radio song. Oh my God. Yeah, not even close.

Yeah. Although there is an REM song with Q-Tip later on that no one remembers. I certainly don't remember that. On Around the Sun. They went back to the rapper. well after radio song. So there's two REM songs with rappers.

But yeah, cool thing is better than both of them. Yeah. Also, REM had two appearances on The Simpsons, but Sonic Youth had the better one. They were on Homer Palooza. Incredible guest performance there. I would say that the reason they broke up, you know, R.E.M. wanted to kind of fade into the sunset, whereas Thurston Moore was apparently sleep cheating on Kim Gordon with his publicist or something like that. Talk about Thurston Moore.

And as far as like peaks versus bottoms, I think REM had greater consistency. Sonic Youth had the famous 0.0 for NYC Ghosts and Flowers, which I think has been revived. But then REM had that like late period of around the sun and reveal that I don't think Sonic Youth ever had that on a major label. but overall I think both these bands represent the sound of indie rock as we understand it I think they are also incredibly important setting forth like the ethics of being an indie rock band but also being on a major which is a way of you know operating throughout you know as Indian major label rock kind of mixed up but if I have to choose one like the band I'm most likely going to listen to. I think REM because, you know, Sonic Youth is to NYC for me, but, you know, REM encompasses this

kind of southern mysticism, which is really a kind of an American mysticism. And so, you know, even if I don't love R&M as much as, you know, I would expect myself to, I think they have to be the greatest American indie band of the 20th century. So I also said REM, so we'll just get that out of the way. And I'm not going to equivocate. I love R.E.M. I think that they're the best indie band of all time from America. And I think that they're possibly the best American band. I would put them in the...

If we're just talking bands overall, they would definitely be in the conversation with a handful of other groups, Grateful Dead, CCR, a few of the other usual suspects. So let's just set that aside for a moment because I do think there's a lot of other good choices here that we could have said. the only real rival to REM for me is whether you want to call the Velvet Underground

an indie band. They were never on an indie label. They started out on MGM, so they were always in the major label world. But they are clearly one of the original blueprints for this kind of music. So if you want to grandfather them into indie rock, which a lot of people do, I think Velvet Underground would be the rival to REM. And it's interesting that REM in a lot of ways picked up the baton from the Velvet Underground. I mean, they covered the Velvet Underground a lot in the 80s.

I was, I first heard the Velvet Underground's music because of REM covers. I think that was a common occurrence. I think for a lot of people like me who grew up in the 90s before a lot of those Velvet Underground records were widely available. So REM, yeah, they would be the choice. I think Velvet Underground would rival them. All of the, our band could be your life bands. You could talk about Black Flag, like Husker Do.

Actually, the replacements aren't in that book, but I feel like they should have been. For some reason, I think of them being in that book, but they're not. But you could say the replacements. You said Sonic Youth, Dinosaur Jr. All the way down the list. Another band that I almost said

that I think should be in this conversation. in 20th century indie rock that you could say in retrospect at least in terms of their relevance I feel like people talk about this band more than REM or at least as much as REM and that would be pavement you know to me pavement is the other obvious

you said Sonic Youth they're an obvious answer REM's an obvious answer I think the Bob and Underground is an obvious answer and I think pavement is the fourth like that is the Mount Rushmore of indie rock in the 20th century I would say.

So Pavement would be the only band, the only other band I would bring into that conversation. I know there's people out there that want to say maybe built a spill or modest mouse. They have a lot of fans. They might even like them more than Pavement from the 90s. But yeah, I'm going to say REM. I'm only talking longer than that

just so we could have more of a conversation about this. But yeah, REM, 20th century indie rock, All-American. And just that they're from the South. I love that aspect of them. They have the Southern Bohemian thing going on. Great band. And they were a genuine indie band for the first four albums of their career,

and then they entered the major label world. So, okay. So that's a boring conversation, perhaps. We'll put that one to bed. I enjoyed it. So now we're out of the 20th century. So a lot of the obvious choices are gone now. So 21st century,

Best American indie band. What is your pick? All right. So I'm going to go with a band that's been releasing music pretty much since the turn of the 21st century. Started in 2000, still releasing music to this day. And, you know, this gets into a broader conversation, whether we can consider a band to be kind of an extended universe. But I'm going to go with Animal Collective in terms of, you know, how they have evolved. over the past 26 years. They have what I they have a deep catalog. They have a diverse catalog.

They're acknowledged masterpieces. There's next level like kind of the the the B tier. There's absolute garbage in there. But I think that they've had just such an interesting arc of starting out in noise and freak folk and these very, very underground sort of sounds, which I think they're similar to Sonic Youth in that way. And they dragged in a lot of avant-garde stuff into the. mainstream but then they kind of transition if you want to count panda bear of creating chill wave and then

with merry weather post pavilion they set a they set the kind of template for the 2010s with ben h allen and i think one of the most important things they've done and i think you can appreciate this is that even if they haven't brought in necessarily jam band sounds to indie rock i think they've legitimized like a jam band mindset with the way they'll perform entirely new albums live. They're kind of more of like the fish sort of jam band aesthetic than the Grateful Dead, which has always had some sort of purchase in there. And I think they've just expanded the way, expanded what people are willing to consider to be indie rock.

They've always been challenging. They've had good moments. They've had bad moments. And there's just so much to explore there. The caveat I will say is that the best 90s style indie rock band of the 21st century, I'd say that's Deer Hunter. They strike me as a lot more of like guitar, bass, drums, maybe the air to REM having been from Atlanta. And if they had continued to make more music, I would say that this would be a lot closer. But I'm going with longevity.

I'm going with Animal Collective. Okay. Well, since you already brought up Deer Hunter, I'm going to jump the line here a little bit in terms of my categories because I had Deer Hunter in my band that never signed to a major label category. Unless we're counting 4 AD as a major label, I don't think, I mean, they're like a major indie, but I, to me, they never went to like Warner Brothers or Geffen or anything like that. To me, they're the best indie band that never signed to a major label. So that's why I'm putting them in that slot. And I just think that their run from like 2007 to 2013, to me is the best sort of pure indie rock run of the 21st century. Rivaled only by Animal Collective.

I think that's a great pick. I think in terms of just like a pure indie band, what you think of when you think of indie rock, Animal Collective absolutely deserves to be mentioned among the best of the 21st century. I think I'd give the edge just on my personal preference to Deer Hunter, but I didn't want to put them in the best 21st century indie band for me, because I'm going with a personal favorite, and anyone who knows me knows what I'm about to say, that is the war on drugs.

And I'm saying this band, because again, they're my favorite indie band of the 21st century. I would say that the case I would make for them is that their run, unlike some of these other bands, I feel like their run of greatness spans a couple different decades.

I think they've put out significant albums in the 2010s and in the 2020s. I mean, they've only put out one studio record so far, but it's a great record. I think most people that like this band would consider it one of the big records of their catalog.

I also think that they have had a huge influence on the sound of indie rock in the last 15 years. I also like the fact that they are a band that is in the indie world, but they symbolize something a little bit bigger than indie rock. I think that the sound of the band, the sensibility of the band, goes beyond just the insular world of indie. And it's become really, you know, like we were talking about Heartland Rock earlier. Like the War on Drugs, like their brand of Heartland Rock, has in many ways become the common form of it, at least in what we call Heartland Rock.

I mean, a lot of the Heartland Rock that was being made in the 80s has now been annexed by country music. But the vibe of Heartland Rock, the feeling that you get from listening to it, that's the war on drugs, really. and it's always fascinating how they recreate that feeling without actually sounding a lot like the bands that they've been likened to where they don't really sound much like Bruce Springsteen but people always compare them to Bruce Springsteen or if you just look at the actual records they don't really really sound that much literally like Tom Petty

it's more like they recreate the feeling of listening to those kind of records I mean really they're much more like the Water Boys for instance than they are any of those bands. There's something more sort of, you know, 80s indie rock to them, more than like 80s stadium rock to them. And then filtered through like a 90s, more of like a noisy type thing. But I just think that just as a band, as a collection of music, it's great, but also just like what they have personified in terms of their sound,

I think is really important. And they're just a personal favorite of mine. So they get the nod from me in the 21st century. Obviously, they've since signed to a major label. But I think that they're probably the records that they're going to be remembered for the most are the records they did when they were on Indies. Yeah, I somehow forgot that they've released albums in three different decades because, you know, Wagon Wheel Blues was like 08 and then 2021. And yeah, I mean, War on Drugs, undeniably a primary color. now of indie rock and going to be that way for the foreseeable future. So I think that's a good pick.

You know, it's like kind of in a way that it's hard to imagine the sound of indie rock. And I think that a lot of what we're hearing right now with like Alt Country or Heartland Rock, that's down, even if it doesn't sound like the war on drugs, it's a, I think it's downstream of them bringing those sort of influences back into the picture, not back into the picture, maybe into the picture for the first time. Yeah, and I think a lot of those artists, if you ask them, they had a lost in the dream phase at some point where they were really into that record. And it probably brought them into other kinds of records, you know, using that album as a gateway.

So I definitely could see that being a common node for many artists. Well, okay, since I already jumped the line with my best band that never signed to a major label. Why don't you just say yours before we get to the best indie band of the last 10 years? Well, if I were to jump the line, I'm going to say for the band that never signed to a major label, not my favorite band. And this is going to be, this has been a tough conversation because I've had like bits where I've made fun of some of these bands or what they've influenced. I'm going to put pavement in there for the best band that's never signed to a major label, not because, not necessarily because I think they've made my favorite music of a band that never signed to a major label.

But when you think about an indie rock band, when like you try to picture what one looks like and what one sounds like and how they interact with fans and how they present themselves in the media, it's pavement. Like that is what you're thinking of. And what they established is, I think forever going, in the same way that like the Velvet Underground is a template, Rolling Stones is a template.

Pavement is the indie rock template for better or worse. And I think that because they never signed to a major label at a time when that would have made a major difference, they will forever be the band I think of as indie rock. Now, you mentioned- That seems so painful for you to admit. You're so grudging in your praise. So why are you still so grudging about pavement? Like, what?

Is this like the Billy Corrigan in you that can't? The killer in me. I feel so much, you seem almost broken as you're expressing this. What is it about pavement that still you can't get over the finish line with them? Well, with pavement, and this comes up kind of sort of when I'm writing my book, is that pavement is sort of this like mocking older brother to a lot of the emo music I'm writing about in the 90s. where it's seen as like, you know, childish or it's seen as like not worthwhile on its own volition. I think that there's, you know, a lot of emotion in pavement's music, but it's done up in a way

that is, you know, kind of prioritizing cleverness. It's kind of prioritizing at least the appearance of not trying, even though like we've all seen that like they're trying very hard. And so what pavement represents in a lot of ways is what I am against more so than the music itself, although stereo, I can't stand that song. But you mentioned before Black Flag, and I kind of kept this discussion more into indie rock rather than punk, because if we're talking about the best band I never signed to a major label, I mean, Fugazi has to be in this conversation as well.

And yet I don't think of them as indie rock. I think of them as a punk band. And so they don't feel like they totally belong in this conversation. Well, in the same, it's kind of similar to the Velvet Underground, though, that they predate a lot of what we call indie rock, but a lot of indie rock bands were modeling what they were doing after Black Flag, if not sonically,

at least in terms of how they pursued their career. And they're also in maybe the most famous book about indie rock that's ever been written. So I feel like they are part of the genre, whether you feel like they belong musically or not. So I don't know. I think they would be. But let's talk about best.

best American indie band of the last 10 years now. What is your pick for that? This one was tough to me because this is a question of peaks versus consistency versus what they've provided versus future projection. And I would say that Alex G came to mind because of the consistency of what he's done, the influence of it. I mean, there is a entire- He's not a band, though.

I know. And that's, although nowadays, yeah, that's why I couldn't say it. So I'm going to go with what a bit of a, I don't know, maybe a surprising or like projection choice. I'm going to go with geese. I say that because getting killed has done for me what very, very few records have in the past 10 years. It's made me excited about like where things are going in the future. I'd say 3D country is a record that, is, I think, going to be like the bends for them in the future in that it's always going to be this idea of like, oh, but like I really wish they'd get back to that sound. I was considering foxing in there, but two of their records, which I really love, predate the past 10 years. And so I couldn't quite get there with them, although I do think that they are one of the most fascinating

and ambitious bands of this era. I think of that, I think of them as emo and not indie rock, though I've been trying for years and years and years to get emo. See, now where you keep doing this thing where you're being too, like, fine-tuned with your definitions in terms of like, well, it's emo. It's not emo. It's emo. It's not indie rock where it's punk. It's all indie rock.

The indie rock umbrella is much larger, I think, than you are giving it credit for. Yeah, it probably is. You can be indie rock and not emo, but I think if you're emo, you're indie rock. I think you are. I would love for that to be the case. So buy my book. I mean, yeah, exactly. So you're saying, so what was your final point?

I'm going to go with geese. You're going to go with geese. Geese, I would say, if the question were the last five years, I would be tempted to say geese. But I think if we're talking 10 years, looking at the entire span of time, to me, the obvious answer was Big Thief. And that band only gets,

dinged because of the last maybe few years, maybe not being as strong. I know that there's a lot of people that love double infinity, so they wouldn't even make that distinction. They would consider that part of the great run that they've had. But I think when you look at, you know, the records they put out in the late 2010s and then into the early 2020s,

to me they're the only band that I would liken to, like, a deer hunter that put out like a bunch of records in like a five or six year span where you just felt like every record was essential. And you could tell in real time this band was on a real heater. I think in the last 10 years, you know, it hasn't been a great time for like prominent indie bands. I mean, there's obviously a lot of great indie bands that are putting out music. But in terms of indie bands that really could like command the attention, you know, it has been more of an era of solo acts. I mean, you brought up Alex G. being one of them. You know, and I'd brought up the

war on drugs earlier. I mean, I'm sure the knock against them would be, are they really a band in the studio sense? Because Adam has been not a one-man band, but definitely, you know, they don't work as a collaborative unit necessarily in the studio all the time. And a lot of bands operate that way. They operate, you know, the Kevin Parker-Tame Impala model has become very common, which is something I write a lot about in my book coming out in a few months. Is this it? But Big Thief to me is the clear counter example of that. A band in a classic sense.

You have a dominant singer-songwriter, obviously, an Adrian Linker, but just the way that they collaborate on stage. It's a real band in a throwback sense. I think Wednesday would also be in this conversation. If we're talking about influence, they've been the most influential indie band, or among the most influential indie bands of the 2020s. I mean, there's so many artists that have taken Carly Hartzman's aesthetic, you know, or part of her aesthetic and run with it, you know, put their own spin on it. You know, that combination of old country and shoegays. I mean, you hear it everywhere. But yeah, Big Thief to me is the big example,

even if they've fallen off a little bit, maybe in the last few years. But the five-year thing, I'm with you on Geese, I would say. The last five years, yeah. And projected going forward, you would think, if we're talking bands,

like best band of the 2020s, they're definitely maybe in the poll position for that. You know, we'll see at the end of the decade, I guess, for sure. Yeah, I figured you were going with Big Thief. And yeah, I would say that they are absolutely the best 90-style indie rock band of the past 10 years in the same way that like Deer Hunter was for the previous decade. But I think that just kind of speaks to how much I love getting killed in that that, to me, that peak compensates for what is a longer run of excellence for Big Thief.

We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talked about something we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so we got good old-fashioned emo from Las Vegas, like good old-fashioned meaning circa 1997 from a band called the Rittanello Form. The name of the album is Majority Rule and for whatever reason and they dropped this album on a Sunday, maybe it's someone's birthday, but this was put on my radar by the band First Day Back who, in my view, put out the best record, emo record of 2025.

And they're kind of creating this extended universe alongside Racecourse who has put out, in my view, best album of 2026. I wish I could have saw them when they came to San Diego. But their set was at 11 o'clock p.m. on a Sunday night. Who does that? I just can't imagine. No, I can imagine being 23. But this is more towards the prettier side of mid-90s emo. You can think of the quieter mineral songs or maybe Jimmy World Circus Static prevails, but they have the co-ed vocal element that is almost required nowadays, sort of like the anniversary or Rhina Maria. Am I bothered that the best emo of the current day or at least the kind that's getting a bit of critical run

seems so throwback a little bit. I'm still waiting for the home like no place or the harmlessness that will just explode the boundaries what emo can accomplish. But if you're listening, you tell me what band is doing that. We'd love to hear it. Yes, because we want our listeners to tell us what music to listen to.

That's the only reason we do the show. We don't want to tell people what to listen to. We're looking for your input. So, yeah, we need like a listener recommendation corner at some point. I want to talk about a group that's not really a group. It's more like a collective of musicians who occasionally get together. They improvise a bunch and then they record it and they put out an album. That group is called SML.

That's three letters SML. This is a group of musicians based in Los Angeles. They are in the jazz world, but it's sort of like an indie adjacent jazz world. A couple of these musicians, bassist Anna Buttrus and saxophonist Josh Johnson, played on the latest Flee record, the trumpet record that he put out a few months ago. But they are also big shots in the improvisational jazz world. And this is a band that I've been hearing a lot about from my good friend Rob Mitchum, the king of indie jam.

He swears by this group. He's been a fan of them for a long time. And he's been telling me about them. And I've dabbled in their recordings. And I couldn't really get into it that much until this new record. It is officially built as a live record. It's called Spontaneous Music Live is the name of the record. And the title is self-explanatory.

They basically went to the show, didn't have anything planned. They got together. And they took the business. They took the best bits from this show, and there are two mammoth pieces on the record, each about 24 minutes long. And it's really cool music. It's totally mesmerizing. It totally sucks you in. Obviously, it's not the kind of music where you're going to be hearing compact songs or hooks.

So it might be a bit of a challenge if you don't listen to this kind of music that much. I would say that for most of the people maybe in our audience, who are maybe dad, in like Miles Davis records from like the 70s, like his fusion era. If you're that kind of person, I think that you'll find something to like on this record. But for anyone else, you know, I feel like the appeal of this music is somewhere between like watching a great athlete and watching a great magician, where you're thinking, how do they do this? And like, will they be able to pull this off? And from that perspective, I think that there's something exhilarating about listening to a record like this.

There's a band from Australia called The Necks that do something similar, where they're just going into the studio and just improvising and recording what comes out. And I think as a feat of musical brilliance, it's very impressive. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be like a great piece of music. But I think SML do pull that off on this record in a way that they don't totally pull it off on their other albums. So I recommend checking it out. You can find it on any street. platform you want to go to or you can go to band camp and purchase it there, which I recommend

doing. Again, the band is called SML. The record is called Spontaneous Music Live. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week.