Indiecast - The Best Music Documentaries + The Elephant 6's Legacy

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

The holidays are here, meaning it's not only time to tune out holiday music in every store but it's also time to chill out, lay on your couch, and binge watch movies. This week on Indiecast, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen share their recommendations for the best music documentaries to check out (or to put on in the background while decorating your Christmas tree). Plus, they look back on iconic record label The Elephant 6, which was a home for bands like Neutral Milk Hotel and The Olivia Tremor Control.In terms of banter this week, Indiecast talks Twitter's still-uncertain future and how difficult it would be to hash out trends if the platform shut down completely. They also imagine kind of music they'd play if they had a college radio show (hint: it'd be pretty similar to Indiecast).The Recommendation Corner this week has Ian shouting out Drowse's Wane Into It, which is a mix of slowcore-country combined with Mount Eerie. Steven shouts out Weyes Blood's latest album And In The Darkness Hearts Aglow.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 116 here or below and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discussed the legacy of Elephant Six and give some holiday music documentary recommendations. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He only eats emo turkey on Thanksgiving.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? Just a note, if we're, like, making jokes next year that merge my musical taste with Thanksgiving food, there is a popular turkey alternative out there in the market called corn. It's spelled with a cue. The fact that they haven't used to be ready for like our meat alternative turkey loaf seems like a real missed opportunity.

So if you are part of the corn, I guess it's corn, Q-U-O-R-N, this is the first time we've ever had like quasi-advertising on this web, on this podcast. But yeah, reach out. I got ideas. We should have booked ahead on that. You know, because we're recording this episode a week ahead of time. It's November 18th.

We're getting out ahead of the holiday for the episode that's posting the day after Thanksgiving. And we were talking about this that, you know, we've banked episodes before, but this might be a unique situation. It could be like recording an episode before the Kennedy assassination. or before 9-11. And of course, I'm talking about the fact that Twitter might not exist by the time this episode posts. This episode could be a time capsule of a simpler and more innocent time before the collapse of a social media platform that probably most of our listeners don't even use. You know, because it's like, what, like 19% of Americans or something use Twitter?

and it's like 150% of media people. But regular people, not so much. But it feels a little weird. I don't know what the world's going to look like once this episode actually gets out in the world. Yeah. When you said 19% of people in America use Twitter, I got the same feeling that I do when I go to Home Depot and see what toilets actually cost. It's like, I don't know if that's a lot or like a little or totally appropriate.

like whether 19% of America uses Twitter. Of course, like, then you have to consider like who has a Twitter account that only posted shit about IKEA Furniture back in 2009 and who were super users such as ourselves. But yeah, I mean, it's exciting in a way, but like also, I got the feeling by the time this episode airs.

We're just going to, I'm going to make some dumb tweet about like, hey, like, hey, this, on this week, Stephen and I hash out this. It's going to exist. It would be nice to see Elon Musk eat shit for real for once. But I also have to think about like I had this like existential crisis. Like where are we going to find out what's happening in, you know, like we rely so much on Twitter, I think, for our trends to which to hash out. Like are we going to have to like scour the dark web?

I mean like is this going to be like us hunting for radio head bootlegs back in 2002? Like going to message boards and whatnot? I don't know. I mean, as much as I like to complain about social media, I would say that my life has been improved on balance by being on Twitter. Certainly professionally, it's been on balance a very positive thing. So I am, as much as I hate to admit this, like legitimately concerned about what Elon Musk is going to do. I feel like the way I did when I was a teenager when I began questioning. the existence of God and realizing that if God does exist, he doesn't care about the people on Earth.

And the experience of being on Twitter right now under the Elon Musk regime is a little bit like that because the god of Twitter it appears that he bought the site just so he could post unfunny memes about himself. Because that's what he's doing.

I looked at, occasionally I like to, I don't follow him on Twitter, but I like to look at his feed sometimes. And he posted a meme of of like a gravestone with like the Twitter bird on it. And then like, it's like that one meme

or it's like a person sort of like crouching next to a grave. Yeah. And the person crouching also has a Twitter bird over the face. And I don't really know what that means. I think that, does that mean that like he's joking about murdering this site?

I don't know. It's a little too deep for me. I don't understand it. Being on Twitter now, it is like that no country for old men, Cor Mock McCarthy type thing where, yeah, God might exist, but God doesn't care about you.

And it's a cold, existential experience right now in the social media world. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Yeah, this is, yeah, I think it's more like the road, if we're talking Cormick McCarthy, which by the way, like I think it's given our taste in music and so forth, I'm kind of shocked that it's taken two and a half years to have like a Cormick McCarthy intro. But, you know, this is what Twitter does to an MF, you know.

Yeah, you know, it's funny too. The other weird thing about banking an episode is that you have to imagine a week in the future and what people are going to want to talk about in the future, even though we don't really know what's going to happen in the future. Like the discussion that we had right before we started recording was Ian mentioned that Nickelback has a new album as of November 18th. So today, the day that we're recording this, there's a new Nickelback album. It's called Get Rolling. And you like in, because on the album cover, it's like a 70s like Chevy van.

With a surfboard on top. the surfboard at the top like you liken this to it it looks like nickelback made a sublime record judging like a slightly stupid record or just like any of those other bands that like that that I would associate with like San Diego

um yeah I'm like really wondering if this is an attempt to I don't know I guess like rebrand in a hey we get it we're in on the joke sort of uh sort of deal um which is weird

because like the first single to my knowledge was called San Quentin and it's like about being like I it's like kind of like a Johnny Cash slash Metallica recording the Saint Anger video type deal also fun fact

they're getting not they're getting inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame which happens to be in Edmonton I'm gonna like just bring in a whole bunch of a whole bunch of mailbag questions like if I say

that is Edmonton, like the Canadian answer to Cleveland. I don't know. I don't necessarily mean that as a negative thing. But I'm very interested to see this album cycle for Nickelback because I think that they might just be pivoting towards that. I mean, we've talked about this on the show before, but like how some artists such as Richard Marks or Darius Rucker, not that they pivot to country, but they can pivot to self-awareness.

And I'm sure they'll get like some really kind New York Times. profile that doesn't necessarily like basically all born of Chuck Klosterman's original article on Billy Joel. Like that is to me one of the most

like a revisionist type argument for Nickelback. I mean I wrote I wrote something about Nickelback for Grantland like about 10 years ago where I made the case that there are far worse bands from their era than Nickelback.

Like if you want to talk about just unbearable butt rock type music, you know, like five-figure death punch. It's way worse than Nickelback. And I could just do a list of Nickelback like contemporaries that I think are far worse than them. What's interesting about Nickelback is, you know, again, I'm just judging this album by the cover.

I don't know if I'm actually going to listen to this album. I'm just going to analyze the cover. Is that it is like a kind of like a fun time party type album cover. It actually made me think of that. band Fu Manchu. Oh, yeah. Remember some guys here. You know, they were a band in the orbit of Queens of the Stone Age that was, you know,

their thing was playing like 70s FM rock type type music, like deep purple kind of thing. Let's put them in, that's in there as well. Yeah, so Nickelback, they are in that sphere legitimately. Like they're not a sort of an indie band emulating that. They actually are an arena rock band. but their subject matter, I just associate Nickelback songs with like, I'm angry at my girlfriend type songs.

Like I feel like a lot of the big, or like I want to have sex with this girl at the bar. That's maybe more of like a fun arena rock subject, but I don't know. I feel like so many bands of this ilk, it's just about I'm in my truck by myself yelling about how my girlfriend is getting on my nerves. You know, that's like the stuff.

And that's not really like fun time. music. I was looking at the press release for this record. I just want to read this thing quick, because I think it's a really funny distinction. I mean, it's true technically, but it's a funny thing to point out. They are one of the most commercially viable and successful acts of the 2000 selling more than 50 million records. Next to the Beatles, they're the second best-selling foreign act in the U.S. So it's like they're kind of classifying nickelback. And and the Beatles as like world music, I guess, you know, technically, because they're not from America. So I just, so next to the Beatles, so they're the best selling foreign act of all time.

I've never, I've never heard that phrasing before. I just thought that's funny. I love that even before, like, I couldn't believe that viable, like commercially viable was not the weirdest thing of that press release. It's like, yeah, like a foreign act. I mean, I guess more so than like, well, Neil Young's never really been like a commercial like artists of that nature. But, you know, yeah, I guess you're right. I don't know. Maybe.

Is that, I mean, but they haven't sold more records in like Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. I mean, that can't be right. Yeah, that's for sure wrong. Indicast intern. Do some back to check. Like Zeppelin and Floyd. Let's get on this. Well, I don't even need to fact check that.

I mean, there's no question that Zeppelin and Floyd have sold. more than 50 million records. I mean, Dark Side of the Moon by itself has probably sold about like 25 million albums. So even this weird phrasing, I don't I mean, unless they're just counting albums sold in the US and not worldwide, I guess

maybe that would be the distinction. But even there, I question whether that's true. I just love the idea of, you know, like, I love world music. I love Lady Smith Black Mumbazo and Nickelback, you know? I love

I love Mdu Maktar and Brian Adams I'm just into world music very funny but congratulations to Nicolbach again this might be this is going to be like a week old by the time we

actually post this episode so maybe this album will come out and they will have gotten that New York Times profile where they talk about how Nickelback is surprisingly nuanced And, you know, I don't know, some other revisionist.

Country Emo Rap's new star, Chad Crager. The thing with them, too, is that, is that really my favorite Chad Kroger song is the Spider-Man song. Hero. Josie Scott. And that's not a nickel-back song. Yeah, Josie. It's not a nickel-back song. It's very, because I always think of that as a nickel-back song, but it's not.

It's a Chad. He hoarded that for himself. He's like, this is a banger. I'm not giving this to the boys. Let's get to our mailbag segment. We're going to do two letters today because it's Thanksgiving. We want to commiserate with our listeners. Thank you all for writing in.

Hit us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. I say that address every episode, and yet I still hear from people who don't know how to reach us. So I don't know how closely you all are listening to us. But again, if you want to write us and we'd love to hear from me, you, Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. Ian, you want to read our first letter? I do. And also,

I don't know, maybe we need to, like, start, you know, getting a footprint on Mastodon or, you know, Discord or what have you. Mastodon is basically, Mastodon is basically like two tin cans connected by a string, right? I mean, that site seems super primitive.

Like, there's no way that's going to go anywhere. I heard you have to, like, find a server or something to log it. Have you read about, like, It just seems super complicated. I also saw something where if you talk about someone in your DMs, they get tagged, the person you're talking about? Did you see that? I heard vaguely about that.

And like, if you have to choose a server wasn't enough to dissuade me, like, the private DMs are like the most important feature of Twitter. Exactly. What kind of maniac thought that was a good idea? Or we're going to tag this person who's being talked about in a private conversation. You are a chaos agent, Mastodon. Like, I would never go to, they're probably, the people who are on that site, they probably are posting nudes of all of the people who are on that site. You know, they're probably posting social security numbers and home addresses, too.

They probably thought that was a good idea. I don't know, man. I'm not going on Mastodon. I don't trust those people at all. Yeah, well, check back with us in like three weeks. Maybe that's where we are. So anyway, this comes from Jenna in Brooklyn. Hi, Stephen and Ian.

I'm a huge fan of Indycats to the point where I pretty much shout out Ian's recommendations every week on my college radio show. I just got to give thanks to Jennifer for that. That really warms my heart. Which leads to my question, if you guys had college radio shows in 2022, what would you play? Would it be a theme show? Very curious to hear your thoughts.

This podcast has got me through my college experience so far. Big thanks for that. You guys are the best. Jennifer Brooklyn. Oh, Jenna, thank you so much. That's very nice of you to say. So I did not have a college radio show in college. I would have loved to have one, but I didn't have the connections apparently to hook that up.

I love that people are still having college radio shows in 2022 instead of having a podcast or going on TikTok or. whatever it is that young people do. It's very cool to see the old school technology still bringing in the kids, so to speak. The closest I got to have in a college radio show was in my 20s, I had a show on the local college radio station. That's Lawrence University in Appleton, Wisconsin. and the most indelible memory I have of that show was the week that this woman that I was engaged to be married to, she broke up with me.

I filled a thermos full of vodka and I went into the station and I just played like George Jones songs the entire episode. Should I be laughing at this? I know it's not. It is funny because, you know, look, it was a good thing that this broke up. I'm married to, I married somebody else who had been with her for a very long time, and it was the way things were supposed to be.

I mean, looking back, that's not a very original choice by me. You know, I'm sad, so I play George Jones songs. I mean, if I'm going to critique my own radio show from like 20 years ago, I would be like, you could be a little more original here than just playing sad country songs. Um, did you ever have a college radio show? So yeah, I had, um, to understand like what kind of college radio show I'd run now, uh, you kind of have to look at my history of college radio. Now, when I was at UVA, um, there was an actual college radio station, WTJU.

I think like Steve Malcolmess and David Berman, uh, met or hung out there. But instead, I was at WNRN, which was like the more mainstream alt rock station that happened to be staffed mostly by college kids and townies. So it was like this hybrid of you play nickel back during your shift. You played that followed by the white stripes, followed by, say, you know, the cure, like an early cut. But, you know, we have to talk during the commercials. There's no actual commercials.

And so that was the first part. And then when I lived in Athens, Georgia, I had a show and we're going to talk about Athens. vis-a-e-a-alphin-6 at W-U-O-G. And I had this talk, it was like a talk show more or less with a friend of mine called Jamie Radford. I was called Viewpoints where, like, quite literally, we would go every week or every other week, 45 minutes, we would just like completely fucking wing it, just like talking about whatever, whatever things that was on our minds. I think we had callers. You could call in, but I think we got one maybe like once every month. So this guy, Jamie Radford, he actually, you know, he's out, he's a lawyer now in Atlanta, pretty

successful. He's got like a band called The New Teardowns, like him and a bunch of Atlanta dads. He self-published a book. Like, basically, this college radio show is me and someone who's been, like, more successful in just about every venue of their career than myself. So you could argue that Viewpoints was the original indie cast. Same sort of format. Same sort of dynamic. And so, yeah, like, if you combine those two elements, which is me talking to someone who's, like, published books and, you know, made quite a few inroads in their career, but, like, occasionally talking about bands like ours and abandoned pools, you more or less have indie cast from those two different venues that I have. Can we change the name of the show to viewpoints? I like that as a name because what are we sharing here, if not our viewpoints? on various subjects.

By the way, good job slipping in an hour's reference. I was waiting for that because you were talking about alt rock from 20 years ago. I'm like he's going to mention ours or Jimmy Neco. There's going to be some

or was it distorted lullabies? He's going to make some hours reference. Absolutely. We played sometimes. I think sometimes was the only song we played in rotation. But like I'm talking injected. I'm talking about tantric.

I'm talking about Alter Bridge. I mean, if I were to have a college radio show in 2022, it would probably be just like straight up remember some guys from like DreamWorks or like V2 or those other like turn of the century, fly by night, like quasi alt rock labels. Can you name one tantric song? Breakdown. You got to listen to it.

It's the dumbest fucking song you've ever. heard. See, you could be making that up. I would have no idea. I am absolutely not making that up. I'm going to trust you that there is a tantric song called

Breakdown. But you could have said anything. You could have said like, you know, you know, bell bottom jeans or something. Like, that's the title of a tantric song and I would just go, wow, he nailed that one. You need to watch the video.

Like, if you, I promise you, watch the video. If you want to see the most 2001 shit imaginable, please watch the video the idea of a band calling themselves tantric Days of the new side project by the way

It's like you are so sleazy man I mean come on Even for Turn of the Century Alt Rock You are beyond the pale If I'm thinking of like A show that I would have now If I was in college

I have to think of myself Okay if I was 22 In 2020 or I was 21 years old, what would I be programming? And I have to just, I guess, assume or imagine that I would have the same taste that I actually, that I had when I was actually 21. And I imagine that I would be playing like deep cuts from like the Pet Sounds soundtrack,

or Pet Sounds box set, excuse me, like, you know, the 59th take of I know there's an answer, like the instrumental version. And I'd be playing that along with like, cuts from like the virgin suicides by air you know like that would probably be my radio show and this is apropos for what we're going to be talking about here in a minute about elephant six like i was in that headspace of you know digging like 60s music and like music that sounded like the 60s like that was my thing i had a picture of brian wilson on my wall you know like that was like the peak of my like worship of like

smile era beach boys so that would probably be my show and I would have some I'd probably call it like good vibrations or something yeah something stupid like that but yeah that would probably be my radio show I imagine if I had one in 2022 or I don't know

maybe the version of me that's born in the year 2000 I don't know what that person would be into it's interesting to contemplate would you be a different person if you were born in this century versus like in the 70s. I don't know.

Or maybe I'd be like the type of dude who instead of like scouring the smile sessions or smiley smile like on the person who treats silver side up by nickel back as my personal pet sounds. Yeah, or maybe I would be the neutral milk hotel guy. You know, like that would be my pet sounds. Speaking of which, well, we're not going to get to that yet. We have one more letter. I forgot that we have a supersized mailbag this week.

I'm going to read this letter. This is from Bowen in New York City. Big fan of the show and you're writing over the years. I assume that's both of us. My question for you is this. Do you have memorable experiences of seeing a good live act at the wrong venue? I don't mean a bad venue, but because the point is that I think some venues can work very well for certain bands,

but not work at all for other kinds of shows. Music whose strength relies on intimate connection with the audience might lose their power in a huge arena, or maybe a raucous punky act is stuck playing to people with assigned seats or you can barely hear the lyrics at a singer-songwriter show at an outdoor festival

that kind of thing. This is on my mind because next week always is playing two venues here. The first is King's Theater, a beautiful 3,000-seat venue for the 1920s, and the second is the Bowery Ballroom,

which is a sweaty basement about a fifth that size. I'd been to that venue. It's a pretty cool venue. For always, my preference is the second one. See, that's funny. I thought he was going to go with the first one for always.

because I don't know. But that's probably because I'm a 45-year-old man and I want to go to the theater. I want to be able to move around, be in a crowd, find my friends, go to the bar a lot, et cetera. Okay, but that's not really about the band, though. Yeah.

I feel like always would be better in the theater personally. But anyway. Molly Rankin, let's open up this fucking pit and playing, like, you know, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, because, like, a band like always, you're not dancing.

You're not, there's no, like, pit or anything. Aldo, I mean, fuck the pit. I don't care about the pit, but it's just going to be people standing in a sweat box. That's how I imagine that show. Whereas if you're in a lovely theater and you're hearing these beautiful songs,

it just seems like better to me. But anyway, back to Bowen's letter here. But that doesn't mean I would always pick the Bowery Ballroom. For example, the Sufian show at King's Theater on the Carrey and Lowell tour was one of the best concert experiences of my life. So, yeah, I could see that for sure, being good there. So, anyway, so Bowen's asking,

This is a good question. Good band. Maybe the venue is good too, but it's just not a good fit. What are your experiences with that? I mean, this has been the case with, like, literally the last two concerts I've seen. Now, when I see the fact that, like, Turnstile is playing, you know, the Blink 182 Arena Tour, and they're playing these massive festivals, you know, I think back to my experiences of seeing them right after Glow On came out.

Like, I saw them once at the Garden Grove Amphitheater, which is, like, half-seated, half-pit, which was fan fucking-tastic. That was like the first show I saw like post-pandemic. And I saw them at the Metro in Chicago, which is just like they said, like a sweatbox. And you can't be a impartial bystander at a turnstile show. That's like part of what makes that so triumphant. But then I saw them at Dia Delos Deftones, which is at like this field in Petco Park. And, you know, the show looked awesome.

looked like people are having a good time, but I was probably several football fields away from the stage. And I just got this glimpse of the future where it's like, how are this? Like, people are going to enjoy turnstile. And like, I don't think that people are going to turn on them. But it's just like this, like, I'm watching this. It's fine. I'm not thrilled by it in the same way that like those two concert experiences were like some of the best of like my, you know, the past 10 years. But the most of the most. agrees this example. I don't think I talked about this when it actually occurred, but I saw a death cap for cutie a few weeks ago and they were playing at this brand spanking new outdoor

auditorium on the UCSD campus, which, you know, this is the sort of place that you would see death cap for cutie. But, and this was like the inaugural show. And like most amphitheater, like most amphitheaters, you get like the seated audience and then there's a pit at the front of for general admission. The trade-off is you don't get to sit down, but you get closer to the stage. This one was formed, it was formed where you have the seated part, but like general admission is in the back on the lawn.

So there is this 30-foot gap where you would think GA would be between the band and the crowd. And Ben Kibbert, like right before he plays, I will follow you into the dark. He talks about how, yeah, this venue wasn't built when we booked this show. And if we had known that, like, we'd be this far away from the audience, we probably would have booked somewhere else. And the crowd cheers them on. It's like kind of a dick move because it's like this venue that this school built because they have like no real campus culture.

And then, you know, Ben Giver, it's like, yeah, this kind of sucks for a rock show. You know, sorry about that guy. It really changed. Is that just a bad venue, though? Like, what instance would that be good to be far away from the audience? It just seems like that was like a poorly conceived. Yeah. Like, a venue.

Yeah. I can't think of a band who's like, yeah, I want the crowd to be like 30 feet away. You know, there's the people in the front row. Yeah, I remember you talking about that, like, when that show happened. I just like, was it awkward when he went backstage and he saw the people that worked at the venue? I guess they weren't the architect of the venue, so maybe they wouldn't care. But I know for me, the most common occurrence of this is outdoor venues versus indoor venues. I feel like there are so many instances of artists who should be playing inside, who are playing outside, and it just ruins the experience.

And I think, honestly, that's true of probably, like, 80% of indie bands, like, if not more. You know, like, where you, like, when you go to the Pitchfork Festival, for example, I feel like most of those bands would be better to see in a club than outdoors, particularly, like, at 2 o'clock on a hot July afternoon. You know, I, like, do you want to see, like, a singer-songwriter? at that moment in time. Like, I really don't think so. I really don't know if I want to see anybody at 2 o'clock on a hot July afternoon. That doesn't sound very conducive for music. If you are going to see something like that, it should at least, I think, have some sort of

like upbeat party vibe. And I think generally speaking, like, that's the music that works best in an outdoor environment. Like, I'm not a Jimmy Buffett fan, but I would probably rather see Jimmy. Jimmy Buffett, you know, or I'd rather be in that crowd than see, like, say, Phoebe Bridgers play a headline festival set. Even though I like Phoebe Bridgers a lot more, I just feel like her kind of music, headlining a festival outside, it's like the worst way to see her.

You want to be in that King's Theater type venue. That seems perfect for her. So I think, like in the summertime, this happens all the time, I think, where you have artists who are, it's just like not the best way, uh, to see them. Um, the one exception I will make for this is I saw Bill Callahan like 10 years ago. He played on the campus of, uh, University of Wisconsin-Madison. And they have a really cool stage there where it's like, the stage is like right by a lake. So like the band plays in front of a lake, essentially. It's a very sort of, uh, you know, very pastoral type vibe.

And he played the night before the 4th of July, which is July 3rd, for those of you who are curious, what that day would be. But anyway, there was fireworks going off in the sky while he was playing, like, riding for the feeling. And, you know, it was this sad, kind of dower music, but the vibe was so distinct and perfect

that it transcended what, again, I feel like it's the common problem of that kind of music being put outside. I got to say, though, that in general, and again, this is probably because of my age, I like having the option of a seat at a show. If you're just in like the sweat box type venue that's like 500 to 1,000 people, again, if it's not like a high energy act, I find those to be. be kind of stultifying to stand in. Like if it's just a band like always,

which is a band I love, but the audience, I imagine, is just standing still, shoulder to shoulder. I don't know. It's just not a very fun environment for me at this time of my life.

I've seen people posting, like crowds at, like, say, Alex G shows, which you wouldn't think, you know, you would think of that similar to always where it's like people definitely aren't getting the pit going,

but like people are moving. I think it's maybe just like, I don't know, a generational thing in the same way that like, you wouldn't think people are like moving in a crowd when like the national would play and say like 2007. But they are. I mean, people who are young and excited, but it's not like seeing turn style, I think, you know. Yeah, or any kind of like harder rocking band, you know, like where at least you're going to be like pumping your fist or something to the band or singing along or shouting. Like that kind of. That kind of. You know, like, where at least you're going to be like pumping your fist or something to the band or singing along or shouting. Like that kind of. kind of environment in a small room is electrifying, but if it's just like a good band that people are just standing still for, I don't know. It's kind of dull, I think. It actually diminishes the music. When I've been in those crowds, I feel like I would rather just be in a theater or like at home by myself listening to this. This is actually kind of taking away

what I like about it, because people just aren't engaged with it. Well, let's get to our list of Topics this week, we're going to start by talking about Elephant Six. Now, do we need to explain what Elephant Six is? I think before we do that, we should just say quick, why we're talking about Elephant Six. There's a new documentary that had its world premiere this month. It's called The Elephant Six Recording Company. The film I've been told is still looking for a distributor. So we're going to be talking about a movie that none of you have seen, which will

hopefully not be too bad because we're going to talk about what Elephant Six is and in the significance of it. There was also a book that came out earlier this year called Endless Endless by Adam Clare. And I haven't read the book. I have the book. It's on my stack of books to read. But I haven't actually read it yet. You read the book, right? I've read the book, yeah. And did you see the movie? And I also read the 33 and a third. on in the aeroplane over the sea, which I also think is, I don't know,

that's like kind of Elephant Six canon. Oh, it's absolutely the canon. I mean, that is, did you see the movie, by the way? I saw,

I saw parts of the movie. Like, I saw, like, a lot of the trailer and, you know, bits and pieces online.

But, like, here's the interesting part about, like, what you said, it's looking for distribution. You can watch it online,

but, like, if you try to do it now, it'll say sold out. So it's like, it's not, the tickets are sold out, it's that if you try to watch it online, you can't

actually do that right now. Okay, well, I was sent a screener, so I watched the screener of the movie, and I thought it was pretty entertaining, but before we talk about the movie, let's talk about Elephant Six for the people out there who may not know

what this is. Basically, we're talking about a collective of bands, mostly situated in Athens, that got started in the mid-90s and peaked probably like in the late 90s, early 2000s. And the bands in this collective include Neutral Milk Hotel, which is by far the most well-known and popular to come out of this scene. But you also have of Montreal, Olivia Tremor Control, Apples and Steria Ero, Elf Power,

The Minders, those are the big ones. And they're all, the thing that links these bands is that, that they are inspired by the music of the 1960s, specifically the sort of psychedelic era of the Beatles and the Beach Boys. And these bands attempted to plug into what those bands did. Not so much their hits, but almost like a bootleg version of what those bands did. You know, it's like these bands were more influenced, I would say,

by like the Beatles anthology albums than actual Beatles records. Like, they wanted to emulate the sound of, like, the outtakes from the Sergeant Pepper era. The records that didn't get on the actual album. Is that a fair way to describe it, would you say? Yeah, I would say that a lot of what the documentary in the book brings about is that how they were a collective. Like, you know, they were, like, living on a commune for the most part, taking advantage of the fact that Athens, Georgia. you know, similar to Rustin, Louisiana, which is another college town that plays a big role in Elephant Six.

You know, this was a time where you and, like, your 12 friends could get this house and just play music all night and survive off. Like, they mentioned, like, literal bags of, like, stale movie theater popcorn because one of them worked in a movie theater. But, you know, when I think of, like, Elephant Six, as far as, like, their musical values, it's exactly what you bring up. which is a very, I think, 90s framework to tackle, like, music of the 60s. Like, as hard as it is for people to imagine now if, like, you're just paying attention to the indie zeitgeist. It wasn't just like, oh, these people are into the Beatles or the Beach Boys. It was this contrarian idea where actually the outtakes were better. It wasn't like they were playing, like, you know, like rubber soul or whatever.

It was like this weird combination of, like, the outtakes. but like early pop and it was very twee, very positive, very kind of precious and this kind of record collector approach. It wasn't, it was, it was still taking it from this angle of, hey, we're going to try to recreate the 60s and rarely not, like not even doing it in a way where it's like, hey, we're going to use computers now. A lot of it was about doing this like trying to find analog material, like analog recording, hey, let's get a zither, let's get a thererman, not trying to put it through a framework of like, you know, hey, we have pro tools now. Right.

Yeah. And there's a lot of, from that period, that I like. I feel like I like Elephant Six probably more than you do. Although I don't dispute the 90sness of that scene. I think you're right in that it was an idea. from that decade that, like, you weren't trying to sort of replicate the lushness of those official albums. It was more about doing something grittier and more lo-fi and not slick. Like, in the movie, Robert Schneider, who was the head of Appleton Stereo, and he was really

the George Martin, in a sense, of this scene, and that he was the one recording a lot of these records, including in the airplane over the sea, that slickness was basically his biggest fear. He never wanted to make a slick sounding record. And so that was really the aesthetic of that time. Again, almost like, if you listen to Olivia Tremor control, I think the aesthetic of those records is like if you were crate digging and you found this great lost masterpiece that was recorded in 1967,

That was, I think, the idea of those records, even though they were made in the 90s. The idea was to make a record that sounded like it was made in the 60s and just hadn't been heard for 30 years. The movie talks a bit about Neutral Milk Hotel and about the breakdown that Jeff Mangum had after in the airplane over the sea came out. I almost feel like this is similar to the Meet Me in the bathroom documentary where I feel like you could almost just make a movie about Neutral Milk Hotel, make them the focus, and maybe have these other people in the back. In the same way with Meet Me in the bathroom, that could have just been about the strokes. Because that's probably the most interesting part of the story, and it's the part that is certainly like the most commercial, you know, in terms of having an audience. How do you feel about Neutral Milk Hotel at this point? I feel like, I like that record.

I feel like it's a little overrated. I actually kind of like the secondary members of Elephants. a little bit more than neutral milk hotel. Like my favorite record probably of that scene is the first Apples and Stereo record, Fun Trick Noisemaker, which it's funny because Robert Schneider is such a central figure in Elephant Six, but Apples and Stereo are probably like the least affected of these bands. Like they seem like you could definitely hear the 60s influence, but it's not as overbearing as it is with some of these other groups.

like they just sound like they don't sound that different to me from like superchunk at times you know like a band like that it's like a noisy pop band um i remember seeing neutral milk hotel on their reunion tour and feeling like i was surrounded by an audience of mark david chapman's like it was so it's like it's the most intense audience i've ever been a part of and it kind of put me off that band a little bit and it made me understand like okay this is why jeff mangum is in seclusion. Because the people who love that band are, they really love that band.

And I could see how it would be disconcerting to be like in the eye of that kind of obsession from people. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you kind of have to consider in the airplane, like unless you really think in the airplane over the sea is literally the greatest album ever made or maybe even the greatest piece of art ever created by a human being. It's going to be kind of overrated. Like you can't, like,

The relationship people have with it is, like you said, like kind of frightening. That being said, I am a, I wouldn't say strictly in the airplane over the sea only type elephant six fan, but it's pretty, and they make this clear throughout the book. You know, with the documentary and the book, like Jeff Mangum is this presence who's like he doesn't speak on the record. You know, they have people speaking on behalf of him. but, you know, endless endless points out, like, right at the beginning that Jeff Mangum, you know, wouldn't speak. But, like, the way, the way people talk about him is, you know, very, in its own stuff, like, very, you know, it's very powerful. So, I like in the airplane over the sea, because it's like the, clearly the most emo of the bunch. There was always, especially with, like, Apples and Stereo, like Olivia Tremor Control, like, I think kind of like a play acting.

pretension, like, I don't think, like, pretentious in the term of, like, you know, like a French artist type way, but they had this idea of, like, what they wanted music to be and let that guide it as opposed to, like, the emotional content. And, you know, I always was able to enjoy this stuff from, like, a remove. But I never really emotionally connected with it. But I do think it's worthwhile to point out, like, how in some ways this is like a mere image of meet me in the bathroom in the sense that, you know, the strokes are neutral milk tell them. It's like, you can do something separate with them, but like this whole thing doesn't really happen without their commercial force. Or it doesn't seem

as significant. No. You know, like I think I, you know, I have very good friends who love Olivia Trimmer Control and like love like the music tapes. And I have to say too that I was surprised by how much I recognized like in the movie.

like instantly, as soon as I heard it, like the minders hooray for Tuesday, which is a record I haven't thought about in a really long time, but they started playing songs from that and I was like, I fucking totally know this song. So that was kind of crazy. It was going back to our college radio conversation, like it brought me back to my own college era, you know, hearing songs like that.

I was really struck by how indie music once upon a time really was really influenced by the Beach Boys. Yeah. And like the psychedelic Beatles era. Like the Beatles obviously still have a large profile. A lot of people love the Beatles. But like the Beatles aren't really influential, I don't think, on contemporary indie music. Like I don't really hear a lot of stuff that is emulating it to the degree that these bands emulated, like those bands.

Like with the Beach Boys, I mean, I don't hear any. Beach Boys, really outside of like power pop circles. Like that second grade record that I really like, the lead singer of that band, like he loves the Beach Boys. But outside of that, I don't really hear much of it. It feels like, was the peak of that, like person pitch, Panda Bear? I feel like that was like when that, that was like the pinnacle of that and then it started declining.

Like I feel like the Beach Boys were big for that sort of like Brooklyn art rock scene. I mean, uh, Panda Bear and Animal collective as Baltimore, but, you know, like, grizzly bear and things like that. They're canonically New York. I would argue, though, that, like, person pitch is kind of an outlier in that it didn't necessarily, you know, it didn't make, like, emulating the Beach Boys popular so much as, like, getting a Rowland 404 sampler. Like, I think that's really where things were taken.

When I think about, like, peak Beach Boys' influence, that would be, like, I think that crested once Brian Wilson actually put out Smile in 2004. Once that happened, I think we saw like a pretty significant shift in Indy Rock. And I think it's like worth pointing out like when we think about Elephant Six is this like countercultural force and you know how indie rock in 1999 or what have you differs from now. It's like liking the Beatles and the Beach Boys was seen as like a real revolutionary thing compared to like what Indy Rock. was at the time, you know, because this was like Drag City and this was, you know, trip hop. And there was like with bands like even like Bula or like Beatwood Sparks or that sort of wave of bands.

It was like seen as kind of contrarian almost to like the Beatles, particularly at the end of the 90s where it was like, you know, kill your idols, that sort of thing. And so you could see, I think this, I love this little detail about Elephant Six. They talk about the flagpole, which is an, which is a alt-weekly in Athens that I read a lot. Those bands, Elephant Six, weren't particularly loved by the flagpole. The flagpole was like super into Math Rock. Like, it's like, yeah, this is what's really popping. So you just have to kind of understand that like this was.

was in some ways so against the grain of what indie rock was. And I think that's what drew a lot of people to it. Well, it's also just the passage of time that affects these things. You know, like in the late 90s, pet sounds was only 30 years old. You know, it's about as old as like the Weezer Blue album is now. You know, so it wasn't, you know, being influenced by the 60s, it wasn't as, distant as it is now. Like now, you know, the conversation about 60s music has really changed where I feel like

in the 90s, people talked about the 60s like it was the greatest decade for music ever. You know, at least a certain kind of person that was into older music. It was 60s worship. And now, I feel like the 70s has totally overshadowed the 60s. And the 80s are, have gone from being this decade that a lot of people dismissed to that being looked at as like another golden era of music. So that has something to do with it too. I mean, you talk about smile coming out and maybe taking away some of the mystery, I guess,

of like that early, you know, of that psychedelic era of Beach Boys. But it was also that was around the time where people started reinvestigating the 80s. Yeah. And that pop era of the 80s. And that became, it wasn't. about worshipping Brian Wilson anymore. It was about, you know, worshipping, you know,

I'm trying to think of, like, who would be the Brian Wilson equivalent of the 80s? I'm coming up blank in terms of like... Yeah, or like some kind of like production, like Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis or something. You know, like some sort of like 80s production, maestro, that was the thing. Getting back to the documentary,

because I want to say, like I like this movie a lot. and hopefully people will be able to see it because I think it's an entertaining movie even if you don't care about Elephant Six because the characters in this movie really teeter on the brink of self-parody a lot of the time.

There were moments where I felt like this is like a documentary now parody of 90s indie rock because it's just like it's just like a lot of like nerdy weirdos basically with like crazy facial hair You know, and I say that with affection. This is all with affection, because I do have nostalgia and wistfulness for that era of indie music.

And it made me think about, because I love watching music documentaries all the time, but especially this time of the year. Because it's starting to get cold. I have associations with Thanksgiving with the two long-form Beatles documentaries. get back in the Beatles anthology because they were both released around Thanksgiving. And then of course you have like the last waltz being a Thanksgiving tradition

for a lot of people. And if you haven't seen the last waltz, I recommend watching it up there. Along with the Beatles anthology, which I don't know if you can stream that anywhere. That seems crazy. And it certainly get back, which you can stream on Disney Plus.

But if I was going to make a holiday music documentary, recommendation. And I think I'm going to rewatch this myself. This Elephant Sixth documentary, it made me think of Dig, the Brian Jones Town Massacre. Classic. And Dandy Warhol's documentary, which, Criterion Collection, if anyone associated with that company is listening, please do a criterion edition of Dig and have me write the liner notes, please. I beg you.

You don't even have to hire me to write the liner notes. Just release it because that movie needs an updated print. It looks kind of crappy. And I think it's hard to find at this point. But yeah, it made me think of that because that's another movie that like teeters on the brink of self-parody. And maybe it doesn't even teeter. I think it just full on goes on. But that's like another scene that was like based around.

you know, obsessing over the 60s. Although, like, that was, like, way more drug-oriented. You know, or, like, way more, like, decadent. Like, the elephant six people, like, they'd have potlucks and talk about organic farming. Whereas, you know, the Brian Jonestown people were, you know, doing hard drugs and having, like, all-night parties and stuff. And having fights on stage. But that's a movie I would definitely recommend. If you are like me and you want to watch

music documentaries over the holiday weekend definitely watch Get Back again I think I'm going to do that Watch the last wall It's maybe slip dig in there Are you a music documentary guy? So I think the

I just dig I cannot recommend that highly enough Because like you can tell The person who made it has like this Barely Concealed disdain for the people it's about Like it's you know Like the elephant six one people like it's made out of love but you know brian jones town it's like you know a bunch of drug buddies who

happen to make music um as far as like music documentaries i don't watch a lot of them like relative to being a professional music writer but i guess maybe it's ironic or just like extremely appropriate that um you know this is spinal tap uh walk hard and pop star are in my view like some of the funniest movies ever made, like the fake ones. And also, I don't know, if you're getting together with your family and want to feel a little bit better about, like, you know, your relational dynamics, I cannot recommend some kind of monster enough. Like, that's also one of the funniest movies ever made, but like not intentionally so. But, you know, when I think... That's a movie. That's a, that, I think that's a pretty good pairing with Get Back and the

last walls, too, because all those movies are about people who, you know, people who, you know, are in these bands and they may not really like each other anymore but they find a way to make it work and what is it and I can't think of a better metaphor for Thanksgiving. Yeah. You know, getting together with your family

could be tense but you still make it work. It's like that's what those movies are about. So I think that some kind of monster, yes, definitely add that to your Thanksgiving viewing. It'll help you navigate your own dysfunctional situations when you're sitting with your family and I don't know if you're still with your families at this point.

You know, you may still be home. So yeah, you might need some tips on how to survive that. Yeah. Otherwise, I mean, it's hard to go wrong with Summer of Soul that came out recently. And, you know, it hits a really good balance of having revelatory, you know, footage, but also inspiring, like, outrage. Like, I think a lot of music documentaries that have come out recently, And, you know, there's just been like just this massive outpouring of it has a lot of it either exaggerates the, the, the draw of the footage that they have or the access they have and also forces like the sociopolitical valence of it.

Like, you know, like I saw the juice world documentary. And in some ways it was really well made, but they tried to, you know, put this person out as like some combination of Tupac and Kurt Cobain. just basically a lot of documentaries kind of have to justify their existence. Another one, like, I think we have to point out that a lot of these documentaries should be put on with the intention of, like, not watching them, like, super intently. You know, like, get back. That was the, we watched that while decorating a Christmas tree. It's a great movie.

It's a great documentary to zone out, too. The song remains the same. It's like a classic. You can just put that on. and not totally pay attention and come in and out of consciousness. The one time I watched that was my first year of college. Someone, you know, you can redact this, Brian, if you think it's going to, like, put my business out there.

But someone from my dormmate from Holland, he passed me this, like, joint that he, you know, neglected to tell me he was laced with ketamine. So I watched the song Remains the Same in a K-hole. That is not a Sun-K-Mill-Moon song. But, yeah, this, the Viking scenes. and, you know, strolling down these pastoral fields and seeing them get to, like, live out there, like Lord of the Rings fantasies in real time,

that's like a band at the peak of their teetering on self-parody stage. So, yeah, song remains the same. Led Zeppelin. Yeah, that would be a good movie to put on, like you said, if you're decorating the Christmas tree, putting up the menorah. I'm doing a shout-up for our Jewish listeners out there. I was just thinking,

I like this idea of music documentaries that are metaphors for like troubled families. Because I just think, again, that's so pertinent for Thanksgiving. So you got Get Back, you've got the last waltz, you've got, what were you just talking about with that? We were just talking about some kind of monster, Metallica. And then another one I thought of,

which is maybe my favorite music documentary of the last 10 years. And I've probably talked about this on the show, but history of Eagles about the Eagles. That's another one that I think is appropriate for Thanksgiving because, again, you have people who hate each other. And hate everyone else, too. They just hate everyone. They hate the world.

But they somehow found a way to come together, make very mellow music, a trillion dollars. And it's just a heartwarming message for all of us again. If you're struggling to get through Thanksgiving, just think that as tough as your family might be, at least your dad isn't done, Henry. It could be worse.

You've not reached part of our episode that we call a Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So the album I want to bring up, and this is perfect for this time of year. It's a band called, it's not really a band. It's an artist called Drows, like drowsy, except with an E instead of a Y. And the album is called Wayne Into It.

Now, I just want you to hear the words, drows, wane into it. You could probably guess what this album sounds like, and it totally sounds like that. It's a solo artist from Portland named Kyle Bates. This is kind of an interesting thing that's happened over the past couple of weeks in Indycasts where between this and Gold Dust, great record, by the way, there's been a few bands who remind me not so much of slow dive, which is a pretty common influence in Indy Rock these days, but Mojave 3. They're more pop country side project. So drows, what they do, they're on Flandzer, which is a label that, you know, kind of specializes in like heavy, not necessarily

metal music. It's a kind of a combination of Mohavi 3, but like, Mount Erie. So the songs are super slow, smuttered, but they're peppered with these very specific lyrics about listening to like burial and one oh tricks point never. And if you want to hear music that like really brings on the onset of winter, I mean, in San Diego, that's like, you know, being 55 and, you know, as a high, this is a great record to experience this time of year. It's like one of those records that because it's so perfect for the weather, it might sneak onto your end list.

You might remember it's like, oh yeah, November 2020. I listen to that album a lot. So really low key, but it's an album that, yeah, if you're like shoveling snow or like just out at night driving home from Thanksgiving, this is the one to do. So I want to talk about an album that is out today as of the today that we are required. recording this episode, but by the time this post, it'll be a week old. But that's okay, because you can still listen to it, even though it's not brand new. The album is called In the Darkness, Hearts of Glow, and it's the new album by Wise Blood. And this is a record that I'm seeing getting really good reviews. Pitchfork gave it an 8.4, Best New Music. I have to say,

for me personally, this record is probably a notch below the previous Wise Blood record, which came out in 2019, that was Titanic Rising. This new record, I think, is really good. It's a continuation, essentially, of what Wise Blood has done on her previous records, which is this combination of, like, beautiful, soft rock, kind of carpenters-inspired-type music melded with, like, apocalyptic imagery. I feel like she writes the most pleasant songs about the end of the world than anyone on the scene right now.

This new record, it doesn't have like the one track that blew me away. Like Titanic Rising has that song Movies, which is just such a great song. There's a couple other just, that's a great song too. This new one seems like a little less grabby to me. I've had a little bit of trouble getting into it, but it's one of those records that I'm going to recommend because I feel like I am going to love this record at some point. And I like it right now. I'm not at the like 8.4 level with this record yet. Maybe by the time this post, this will be like my favorite album of the year. We'll see how it grows on me as the week unfolds. But again, I think

Wise Blood, what she does, it's such a singular vibe, such a singular sort of sensibility and aesthetic that I just love what she does even if I feel like this record isn't like my favorite thing that she's done everything that she does is worth hearing so definitely check out that record again it's called and in the darkness hearts a glow by wiseblood um me personally like 70s like soft rock is like a one form of music I typically not fucking stand but like wise blood does it really really well so even if I'm not like super into it like I can respect it. And I also know, like Jeff Tweedy and how to write one song just like can lose his goddamn mind off one song from Titanic Rising. So pretty trustworthy source. Yes. So check out that

record. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.