Indiecast - The Evolution Of Folkies Sufjan Stevens And Fleet Foxes

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

On the new episode of Indiecast, Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen dissect the new albums by two very successful indie acts who originated in the aughts: Sufjan Stevens’ 'The Ascension' and Fleet Foxes’ 'Shore'. While the rollout of 'The Ascension' took on a more traditional approach, the arrival of 'Shore' came as a surprise, with the release timed perfectly to coincide with the autumnal equinox on September 22nd at 9:31am EST.While Hyden was initially resistant to Sufjan Stevens’ early work and Cohen felt similarly about Fleet Foxes’ early work, both have come around to the recent releases from each respective artist. 'The Ascension' is some of Stevens’ darkest and angriest music to date, and 'Shore' represents Fleet Foxes at their most attainable and melodic.In this week’s recommendation corner, we have the new self-titled album from Teenage Halloween and the long-awaited new Deftones album Ohms. Sign up for the Indie Mixtape newsletter at uproxx.com/indieSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, we hash out trends. In this episode, we're going to be talking about albums by two very successful indie acts who originated in the aughts. Sufian Stevens and Fleet Foxes. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

Steve, you know, do you remember back in the day, like I, I know that basically every one of our episodes starts with back in the day. But do you remember back in whatever day it was, you know, when you would like a band and you would be kind of ahead of the curve and then a couple years later, maybe other people start catching on and maybe you start to feel a little possessive, you know? Of course. Yes. That's not been the case for me. Pretty much ever since I've been a music writer, like if I like a band, then a couple years later people start catching on, it's probably because. I spent those past two years very actively pounding on the table demanding the people listen to this

band. But in the past couple of weeks, I'm starting to get that old feeling again because, you know, after walking the wilderness in 2017 and 2018 alone, in the past week, in the past two weeks, it has become super cool to dunk on idols. And man, like, where were you guys in 2018 when they were eviscerating toxic masculinity? I mean, I'm like kind of joking. That's actually like, that's actually like what gives me like weird sort of feelings nowadays about like, you know, when I see bands getting dunked on, I sort of feel bad for it to the

point where I kind of might have to check out the idols album to like maybe take a new contrarian viewpoint. I don't know, man. I'm feeling very confused right now, which is what I'm saying. I'm glad that you were able to shoehorn idols into this episode because otherwise, we would never be able to justify talking about that band. You never know, dude.

What if they actually like achieve their goals of like ending racism? Like everyone said, their last album did. War power to them. I hope they make it happen. But you know,

there was that story this week where some dude from Sleepford mods and fat white, fat white family, which I was thinking. Yeah. And I was just like, man,

I wish people in America gave a shit about any of these bands because we could talk about this and dig into it, but like nobody cares. Who cares about idols? And a lot of people do, but I mean, in England, at least, but, come on, like in America. I don't know. Didn't you say, like, at a pub show, you used, you're a bunch of idols t-shirts?

Like, at those sort of shows, but also, I sort of wish that, like, American bands would get into it the way they do in Britain. Like, frankly, I don't, I don't listen. I could care less about Sleaford mods and, like, that way. family, but the fact that they're like all going at each other and like, you know, I don't wish that, you know, Noel Gallagher and Ian Brown would say like coronavirus is a hoax, nor Van Morrison, but like, I don't know. It's, I feel like they're saying more interesting things, you know, because when you talk to enough bands in America, you, you hear like what they say like under the

radar, but they don't take this stuff publicly. So if I have to give any sort of, you know, recommendation to like look at the UK music scene as opposed to American rock like that's it I'm there for the beef man oh yeah I mean look I am a public lover of rivalries

I love it yeah bonus episode but again my problem is that no one cares about these bands in America so it's like you'd be like talking about some sort of interscene like you know battles between basically bands that just

inspire think pieces like that's what I think of idols essentially being in America. They're a band that people write about, but it's like, is this like Gabbo? You know, I'll make a substance reference. It's like, they're like the Gabbo of Indy Rock. It's like, does this band actually exist or is it just something that people talk about? You know, I don't know. That's our next episode.

Who was the Gabbo of 2010's indie? Because I got a few ideas, man, and it definitely ain't, and it definitely ain't idols. Well, see, I thought you were going to maybe bring up the Rolling Stone albums list in this, in this intro. Steve, an hour is just not long enough to even begin to scratch the surface of that. I mean, all I'll say on the Rolling Stone list is I'm just going to quote the dark night where there's that famous line where they say you either die a hero or you live long enough to see your album fall out of the canon.

Yeah. That is, you know, that's all I'll say about that. You know, and I think we have a lot of other things to talk about in this episode. We have two pretty big records by... Yeah, let's talk about it. the canon. Let's talk about the aughts canon, if we were. Exactly. I feel like this is, you know, I was thinking about this that

this is like a year where like a lot of the aughts heroes are coming back. You know, we had a bright eyes killers episode. Now we're doing a Sufjohn Fleet Fox's episode. Am I missing any? Tokyo Police Club,

I'm ready for that album when it's dropping. Tokyo Police Club. Yeah, they had some bangers. Like don't, like, do not get it fucked up, man. Those first two records, those first two records go. Is that considered landfill indie? It kind of is. It's like Canadian landfill indie. Oh, yeah. We have to do like a North American landfill indie episode to balance out that British

list that came out recently. Well, let's talk about Sufian Stevens. Now, a little background, of course, before we're talking about the record. Sufian Stevens, of course, one of the biggest stars of Aasera indie. And really, it's still. is like a pretty big star in the indie sphere. His breakthrough record comes out of course in 2005. It's the record Illinois. And that's a huge critical hit. Tapped all sorts of critics, you're endless. It's also like a pretty like decent sized commercial hit as well. I think it's still like his most famous album probably by a wide margin. Would you say like I think it's his most iconic. I wouldn't be surprised if Carrie and Lowell, like, did better maybe commercially, just...

Maybe. I just feel like... If Call Me By Your Name, maybe was, like, you know, his song from that, that might be his biggest hit. But I think if you were to, like, look at the definitive, like, if you were to describe what Sufion Stevens is or what he did, you would say, like, yeah, Illinois, that's the one. I mean, I read the Atlantic profile that ran, I think, either this week or last week. And the lead of that story is the writer talking about how the public was... told him not to ask about the 50 states project. So I feel like that's a sign that Illinois is still like his calling card that people are still

wondering, hey, when are you going to make the other 48 albums about, you know, American States? And the funny thing about it is like if you want to look at how, I don't know, indie famous Sufion Stevens is, like around last year there was a really awesome ringer piece about like the 50 state project, like how it began. And like they weren't celebrating an anniversary of any record. It was just like, hey, this is something that's still on people's minds. Exactly.

And you get a really cool. And you get some really cool indie, like, inside baseball stories about, like, how the pitch for score of Michigan was, like, changed over a weekend. And if it, like, weren't for that, this, we might not be having this episode. I think Zach Schoenfeld wrote it really interesting if you're, like, into indie rock ephemera, particularly of, like, the more of the Wild West early aughts. So anyway, the Illinois comes out in 2005, but preceded by Michigan, as you mentioned.

Yeah. And then he makes the age of odds in 2010, which I think for a lot of people has become the sort of interesting Sufi on Stevens' record, the interesting curveball. I know for me personally as someone who was a little cool to Illinois when it came out, that's a record that I gravitate to a little bit more.

And we'll talk about that a little bit later in this episode and how it, I think, links to the new record in a way. You reference the record, Carrie, and Lowell, which came out in 2015, this song cycle, very personal record about a family tragedy, another huge critical hit, a very beloved record. And of course, he's putting out other albums in the midst of these two that aren't sort of full-fledged Sufion Stevens project.

You made reference to his contributions to the Call Me By Your Name soundtrack, which garnered him an Academy Award nomination for the song Mystery of Love. All this is leading to the new record, The Ascension. And this is a record that Stevens himself has described as his angry, than most political album. I made reference to that Atlantic profile before. And in that story, he says that I'm inherently a pessimist. And he goes on to say that typically in my music,

I try to put on a more cheerful facade. I guess Carrie and Lowell being the exception. But in this record, I'm really letting my pessimism show. And it's interesting because we'll talk about the lyrics here in a minute. But I feel like there's two things going on in this record where you have these poetized lyrics and music that I think is the poppiest of his career. Like when I was listening to it, I kept thinking of Depeche Mode in 80s synth rock. Now, it's possible that that was implanted in my mind because he literally says,

I'm not your personal Jesus in the song video games. So maybe that was just sort of like a suggestion to me. But I think there is that sort of, again, Depeche Mode, Tears for Fears feel to a lot of the songs, as well as I was getting some like almost like nine-inch nails like the fragile vibes from this record, maybe just because of the epic nature of it. And there's some gothy overtones to some of the songs. And then there's other tracks like the single sugar that almost like maybe think of the chain smokers, which is not a, you know, a complimentary comparison perhaps.

I don't necessarily mean it as a put-down. But again, just kind of speaking to the poppiness of this record, I have other thoughts on the album, but I'm just curious, like, what do you think of this record? So I'm glad you brought up The Fragile. I mean, it's kind of stealing my bit because, like, it does sound like Depeche Mode in some places, but what I get is, like, the one that came up to me is like smashing pumpkins a door and the fragile as well, like kind of that late 90s post-electronica alt rock where it's not, like, the synth sounds are like kind of gothy and rudimentary and very hollow.

out. But in general, like also, like those two records I mentioned, this one's really fucking long. Like, I'm not going to lie. I have not been able to sit down and listen to the entire album front to back. I mean, a number of things that could attribute to that. Like, first off, it's a really long record, but so are other Sufian Stevens albums. But, you know, what happens sometimes is that, like, I think nowadays, when you, most people experience the record, like when it drops. Records don't leak anymore or anything like that. And it's like it's hard to find that much time to sit down and like absorb an album. And that's like I feel like I'm like becoming one of my real life friends. Like you know, I don't know what like what people are like in your life.

You know, the people you socialize with and talk about music. But most of my friends are like, oh yeah, I read stereo gum. I read pitchfork in college. But you know, they kind of lose touch. and, you know, because they get like real jobs and they're not following music writer, Twitter. I'm like, I feel like I'm becoming one of those guys in a way because like a Sufion Stevens album, like that is like hold the phone, put, you know, put the kids to bed. I don't have kids, but, you know, figuratively speaking. And just like focus on this. And it's like, you know, I listen to bits and pieces of it.

And, you know, it's kind of the way I did with age of odds. to me that's like it's just like really imposing and I think that's kind of the point of this record one thing that's like stood out to me though is even with you know winning an Academy Award and his ability to sustain

he didn't win he was nominated oh well that's what I get for not actually winning that's what I get for actually not watching these things but yeah like he over this panel 17 years it's really hard to find someone who's sustain their like goodwill and popularity better than he has despite the fact that he puts out like real albums every like five years and am i crazy for thinking that this album like the reception

of the singles has been very very lukewarm oh yeah that's definitely true i think especially given that it's a sufi on stephen's record you expect a certain level of excitement and i'm not getting that uh from this record and at the time that we're that we're that we're recording this episode. I haven't seen really any reviews yet. I've only seen I have profiles. How are the reviews so far? A couple of like super positive. Others sort of talk about like how it's it's a dense really challenging work and you know in a way like his pessimism or like a song like America for example and those and those songs like kind of it's hard for them to stand out because that's what everyone's writing about.

Yeah, I mean, you know, the thing with this record, you mentioned the length. It's like an 80-minute record, which, as you said, that's fairly typical for Sufian Sevin's record. I think Carrey and Lowell was, again, the exception, it's about a 40-minute record. The thing with this record, and this is also going to sound like a backhanded compliment in a way, but it is made in such a way that it's a zone out record, I think, in a lot of respects. Yeah. That the tablet that he's working from, like, sonically, is relatively, like, narrow. Like, it is, again, this sort of synth pop sound.

And in that way, it's not like The Age of Odds, which is this very dynamic record. It's all over the place. It's noisy. It's proggy. It's, I think, more deliberately confrontational than this record, you know. as I was saying before, like there is this dichotomy on the album where lyrically, uh, it is this, again, very aggrieved, angry, you know, upset about the state of the world in the country. There's also a lot of spiritual overtones to it. And I have to give a shout

out to Chris Deville over at stereo. Oh, yeah, he killed it. He did. That's the only review I've read about, of the record. He did a really good job of breaking down the religious overtones of the record. That was sort of the focal point of what he wrote. Um, but music it is not angry. It is a very sedate record. Yeah. And it is, it does feel at times like one of those chill out

playlist that you hear on Spotify. And I have to say like for me, you know, I don't know how intentional that was. He has talked about how he was trying to offset some of the anger of the lyrics. I think in a way he almost diffuses the anger a little bit. It's not like a record like pure comedy, for instance,

where the lyrics are foregrounded, and I feel like Father John Misty on that record almost made the music simpler. I think one of the complaints of that album is that it wasn't musically dynamic enough. And it was lyrics front and center, like you couldn't ignore the lyrics. And if you weren't down with it,

you were going to hate that record. Whereas with this album, I think it's a lot easier to tune out the lyrics, and maybe that's a good thing because some of these lyrics are like pretty trite. Yeah, I wonder if that's like an intentional thing when you look at like, make me an offer I can't refuse or run away with me or video games for that matter.

Like whenever there's an artist who's accumulated a body of work like Sufion Stevens and like has so much goodwill, yet you always like give them the benefit of the doubt with something like that. It's like, oh, what he's doing is challenging the subtext of trite pop songs, not like adding on to that pile, which I think he's probably doing right here because like I want to give. give like video game the benefit of the doubt because like what he's saying is like you know, I don't know, like a critique of like like basic like he's not saying like, like, you know, getting off your smartphone or whatever. It's like talking about playing video games or like watching TV and how that makes us all kind of like zomified or and it's like this is not a new

sentiment, but you have to wonder if like that's if he's, I don't know, trying to let. I don't think people are looking. I don't think Sufion Stevens is really going to tilt our political. conversation at all. Well, that's the thing, like, you know, and, you know, more power to him for writing the record he wants to make and saying what he wants to say, but it's like, I'm not looking for like an angry political record

from Sufiann Stevens. Like, this isn't like a Run the Jewels record. Well, run the Jewel's is like backyard barbecue music nowadays, man. I know, but like, you know what I mean, but that's like the brand. Like we're going to, you know, we're the like middle age rap group, but we're also going to do like the sort of old school like protest song, like Barry on the nose type of doing that sort of thing.

And, you know, like when I first saw video game in the, is it video game or video games? I think it's video game. Because there are a lot of, there are a lot of songs here that like kind of reference previous pop songs like Sugar and Runway with me. I think it's video games. So you don't confuse it with video games, the lot of Del Rey song. Yeah, I was hoping that it was going to be a Lion Del Rey cover when I first saw the tracklist thing, but alas, it's not. But yeah, you're right, there is this thing almost where

he's using form as a, like, the pop song form as like a way to critique mass culture. Because that is like one of the themes of the record, this idea of like entertainment being like a narcotic for the public and dulling us against, uh, the realities that we're, uh, being faced with and, and maybe making us more complacent than we ought to be. You know, I, I, I will say, say that like one of the things I really admire about this record is that I think it does exhibit once again his talent as a songwriter that um you know he can do these sort of grandiose you know Prague folk epics like Illinois he can write a more confessional strip down record like kerry and lull or he can do these more lush poppy records like the ascension that have this

sort of subversive undercurrent to it and I mean to me like this record, as epic as it is, and as long as it is, it's always very listenable. Like, there isn't really much on this record that, like, turned me off. Maybe the criticism of it is that there's also a lot, again, that feels more like zone-out music. Because it's so long, it starts to feel a little bit like Sonic Wallpaper as you're listening to it. Like, I listened to this album quite a bit this week because there was an album that was very

easy to put on while I was working on something else. and I could enjoy listening to it but I didn't have to necessarily pay too close of attention to it all the time like it could just sort of blend into the background very easily in the same way that those Spotify lists do

you know those chill out Spotify lists yeah I think this is going to help out this record in the long run like regardless of like how it's received when it finally comes out my guess and I base this on how similar records from similar artists our face. You know, it's like maybe the reception initially is a bit lukewarm, but

it sort of sneaks on it year endless. And like a year from now, people are like, oh yeah, that's Sufian Stevens album. It really held up better than I expected because people are probably going to give it more attention because it's Sufian Stevens. You know, people are going to like, you know, take the time to really dive into it and explore the layers underneath, like what I think is intentionally kind of an electronic placidity. I don't know if that's a word or a Queens Reich song. But, all right.

Episode 8, Queens Reich. We finally got the pun in. But I think, like, when I listen to this record, even if it doesn't, like,

necessarily, like, push Sufian Stevens to an even higher echelon of, like, stardom or popularity or critical acclaim, I also,

I think it's just going to, it'll probably be nominated for some Grammys, maybe even win a Grammy, just because of, you know, who he is. I think like he's playing the long game here, which is great because his pace, we won't hear another Sufian Stevens' proper album until 2025.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for me personally, I tend to prefer Sufian Stevens working in this mode of like sort of like more electronic sounding music versus his folkier side. Like I said before, like when Illinois was the big thing in indie music in 2005, I was I was one of the skeptics of that record. that album to be like a little too much. I was all in, man. All in. Even for the era, I thought like, this is like a little too like overly theatrical and precious for me. This is like like the worst of West Anderson.

He was on stage like with angel wings and stuff like all that stuff. It's like, but like when he made age of odds and I think this record too, I just, I think I'd just respond to that that side to him a little bit more. And, you know, and I'll say too that like my feelings about. his aughts era work has changed over time, too. I mean, Sufian Stevens is someone that, I think, if you care about indie music, you have to contend with his work. He's just one of those major artists.

And, like, even if you don't respond to it, it's not your favorite thing. And I'll say, like, I don't revere him in the same way that, like, a lot of other people do. But he's so obviously talented, and he's had such a clear impact on this corner of the music world that you have to pay attention to them and you have to like take them seriously. It's appointment listening. Right. Absolutely. So, you know, again, I think we're,

I mean, you need to listen to the whole damn thing, man. Like, you know, through your calendar. I've heard the whole thing, but like, I've not, like, honestly, I want to just say that if Madden 21 wasn't like complete dog shit, I might have listened to it. That's a completely different thing. But, like, that's how, that is my process. I put on the latest iteration of Madden,

and I just listen to whatever new records are out for like a couple hours. But this one, it's just like the most buggy video game ever created. And you know what? This is just completely tanking my fall. So if the quality of our episodes slip in the next month or so, like, don't blame me. Blame Madden 21. All right. Well, okay, we'll screw you, Madden 21.

Yeah. You derail the end. Bring back NCAA football. That's all I'm saying. But yeah, and again, I'll say like, I'm enjoying this record. I like it too. Why not? And as the fall unfolds, I look forward to listening to it more because, again, there's a lot to absorb.

And I'm sure my feelings, and perhaps yours, Ian, too, will change as we listen to it more. Now let's go to Fleet Foxes. Another band that came out of the odds, they formed in 2006. Their self-title debut comes out in 2008, and that's a huge hit. They're like even more than Sufion Stevens. They are like a huge mainstream sensation. They come back in 2011 with the album, Helplessness Blues. That's also a big hit.

And, you know, they are one of the signature bands of this era of indie, this rustic era. You have them, you have Bonnie Vair. You have like the dark was the night scene, that whole thing. Oh, yeah. Music that is hearkening back to, you know, the music of the 60s and 70s in a way. but also has this very sort of millennial appeal to it addressing contemporary concerns. They become these sort of touchstone artists for people who were young at that time. And then Fleet Foxes, they go away for a long time.

Robin Pecknell, the band's frontman, and really, it sounds like he is the one making almost everything on their albums. Like I think he, I read an interview this week where they tour as a band, but it's basically just him in the studio. kind of going along with what we were talking about last week with bands, how bands don't really exist anymore. Fleet Fox is in essence another band like that. Well, I think that you have like Sky, who's the guitarist. Like I think he does a lot of the production. And also, they'll always be a band to me because they have Morgan Henderson in the band now.

He's a guy who plays like, you know, he'll be the guy playing like French horn on stage and like other woodwinds. And that guy used to be in Blood Brothers. So I will never let people forget that a guy who used to be in Blood Brothers. is now in Fleet Foxes. Right. Well, of course, they also had a dude that used to play drums for them, who now goes by the name, Father John Misty. And I have to say that, like, Fleet Fox is for me,

even though they're a band I like, they are still primarily the band to me that Father John Misty used to be in before he started his solo career. Like, they're the prequel band to his career in my mind. Not for a lot of people, I know, but that's how it is for me. Anyway, there's this long six-year gap where there's no Fleet Fox's music. And Robin Pecknold went to become a college student. He's doing like the Rivers Cuomo thing where he's like, I want to go to school for a while

instead of being a rock star. But then he comes back with the album Crackup, which is this record that I tend to think is more impressive than good or more impressive than like fun. You know what I mean? Like it's a record that I put on and I'm like, wow. like the production and the construction of these songs is like really great and it's like kind of complex and there's this great sort of it goes between like beautiful folk and like noise and back to beautiful folk but it's not like a terribly like fun record to put on like I know you reviewed it for pitchfork right and I gave it a really good score I gave it a I gave it a very good review for pitchfork and I very rarely listened to it in the time since but that being said that doesn't mean it's like not a record. I still think it's extremely impressive. And I interviewed Robin earlier in the week and he called it kind of a prestige object. He's proud of it as well. But like all the things that you mentioned,

like it's the kind of record where if you give it, your undivided attention and get pretty academic with it the way like you would when you're reviewing a record and like you want to say smart things and make it seem like you dug into the record a little more deeply than other people have. It really becomes even more, more of a, more of a, you know, you know, a monumental work because a lot of the things that were overlooked about it, you know, lyrically, it's, it's a very political record about like, you know, police violence and being in protests and a lot of things that could be kind of overshadowed by how pretty the vocals are or the fact that like the lyrics are pretty impenetrable or that there's like a lot

of like ancient Greek mythology referenced in the song titles. But it, in a way, like I think was kind of par for the course for Fleet Foxes because, you know, leading up to the release of the new record and interviewing Rob and I put on helplessness blues as well. And once again, I'm like, this is, you know, very impressive record, beautifully done. And it's like, when was the last time I listened to this? You know, like, Flea Fox's albums, like, those two are ones that I, I'm very impressed by. I think that they're very, like, I think they're one of the most definitive and strongest band. Like, they, they don't miss. But it's not something that, like, I have an emotional connection to. Whereas, you know, the 2008 records, that's just been, like, absorbed through

osmosis. You know, nowadays, like, I can, one of my favorite jokes I do with, like, my girlfriend is any time I hear, like, a late aughts, like, indie classic and, like, the supermarket, like, White Winter Hemnal or, like, the first time I did, it was Ariel Pink's round and around. I'll just, like, look over to her. It's like, this is a very important song for my culture, you know? It's true. There's a lot of songs like that by Fleet Foxes. I mean, I really think of like that first Fleet Fox's record as like, you know, the Obama

era beginning, you know, like the enthusiasm of the Obama era, you know, like if there's ever a documentary made about 2008, like you're going to play something from that Fleet Fox record. That or Deer Science by TV on the radio. I think that is, oh. I just think there's like, you know, there's something sort of like hopeful about it. And again, it harkens back to the 60s. bit with like those CSN type harmonies on it and yet again it feels very much tied to that era so I think to me that's always very linked with like that late aughts moment of like oh Obama's going to come in

and save us you know which of course now we look back on with a certain changed perspective on it but like when you're talking about crack up and again I think that record is really impressive but I think it is an interesting comparison with the new record which is called shore and of course that record came out on Tuesday at precisely 9.31 a.m. Eastern Standard Time in accordance with the fall Equinox, which, you know, praise Fleet Foxes for knowing their brand and not being to brandish it. But, you know, you were talking about all the things with crack up about how, you know, there's references to Greek mythology and there's, like, lyrics about police brutality and all this. And I have to say that for me, my appreciation of Fleet Foxes is grounded basically in, like,

melody and harmony. And if I am paying attention to the lyrics on a Fleet Fox's record, it's probably not a good sign because I really just want punchy, beautiful folk rock songs. I think that is what they're best at doing. That's what they did on that first record. I think the next two records get a little lost in the weeds for me sometimes with how convoluted they are. I think with Fleet Fox's songs, if they go on a little too long, they become boring. Like, a Fleet Fox's song should be about three or four minutes long. It's a perfect length. It delivers a hook. It delivers the harmony and the melody, and I'm usually on board with it. And it seems like Robin Peknell agrees, at least on this record, because Shore is basically

every song's about four minutes long. It's very punchy, very beautiful. To me, it's the most direct and accessible record they've made since their debut, and it's probably my favorite album that they've made since their debut. And it just made me think, like, before we came on this episode, someone brought up Band of Horses on Twitter, and you were talking about how the first two Band of Horses records are fantastic. And I'm... Oh, man.

I'm obviously... Everything all the time, man. Don't even get me fucking started. Oh, man. Like, I'm way on board with you about that. It almost made me think, like, oh, man, now I want Band of Horses to make their version of Shore. Like, because I feel like there was a sort of back-to-basics element

to Shore? I don't know if it was deliberate, but it does feel like I'm going to make a record like our first record because I know people love it and I'm good at it. And it's like, oh man, band of horses should do that too. I want all the aughts bands to kind of go back to basics here. But I mean, am I off base with that? I mean, to me, like that's the appeal of this record

because I really like it a lot. Absolutely. And I think that when you look at the reasons for why Shore turned out the way it did. When, you know, Robin has been very up front. It's like, it's not because of like the reception of the record in any way, but when, when, when, when you consider like what it took to like play those songs, like the, the tour was like really exhausting, uh, complicated.

Like the shows were like three hours of pop usually and playing these six minute, very dense songs. Um, and he took the view of like, if I'm going to make like another Fleet Fox's record and not take like three, four, four or five years. Because even on helplessness blues, he admitted to like kind of struggling with writers block, what he wanted to do was just like put out a record, you know, fast, collaborative, breezy. And, you know, in a way like kind of a counterbalance to what crack up did. And I think that's why you see, you know, especially if we're going to compare it to say the new Sufion album, like the reception of the new Fleet Fox's album has been largely

positive, where it can be seen kind of as a referrefer. random almost on crackup, which I think for some people, crack up is going to be like the contrarian's choice for the exact opposite reasons that you think the new one is their best since the self-tide. That's their age of odds. Oh, yeah, that's their age of odds. You know, just like I love, and I'm sure like I'm going to, it's funny, I had a recent moment with crack up where I was,

where I pulled it off the shelf because I have a CD rack in my office and I have that album on CD because I love CDs. I pulled that out and that's how old school I am man and I was like I'm gonna it's like I remember liking that record when it came out I wrote a positive review of it I'm like I'm gonna really get into crack up and I listened to it and I was like I'm enjoying it but I turned it off in the middle I was like I was like that's enough I just got tired out by it whereas this new flea fox's record I've just been listening to it over and over again and And I think in a way, you're probably right. I think maybe this record over time, people might get sick of it.

Yeah, I think. You know, but like for now, though, I'm enjoying how breezy it is and how it's just kind of delivering the directness that I want from this band. Yeah, and I think, you know, when I listened to it the first time, like over the weekend, you know, I was driving up the coast. One of the things that Robin pointed out was that he wrote most of his lyrics while in the car. He would take these trips upstate New York. York and like just drive for eight hours at a time with nowhere to go. He I'll put his stuff on

blast. He has a Toyota forerunner. He he likes to go surfing and camping. Like he's he's living that life now. And I think that's the kind of record it is where it's very collaborative, very like kind of take the focus off me and my like academic woes at Columbia University and just given something breezy. And like, in a way, it's almost more suited to the moment than an album like The Ascension because I think that what gets overlooked, particularly when we have to like think of every single piece of music in the context of our political state is that people want counter programming, you know? Like you you want like an album that you can kind of throw on and just maybe like enjoy yourself for like 45 minutes at a time before you go back to like just

worrying about how like our entire society is crumbling. But yeah, I think one thing that like I would say a little disappointing about this record is when you look at like everyone that he got involved being like a couple of members of Grizzly Bear, Hamilton Lighthouser, a couple of like new artists is that man, I just wish we could get one song with with Robin Peknoll than Josh Tillman together. Oh yeah. I don't know if like they, I don't know if they, I don't know if they. their relationship is like as people.

I think they're pretty chill with each other. I think they congratulated each other when their records dropped in 2017. But I just try to picture like what, like maybe they'd have like a ghost face Rayquan dynamic or like one of those classic rap duos where you get like the one kind of excitable guy and the one dude who's like kind of the more of the straight man. Like I just wish at some point those, because he talked like Robin talks about like how much He wants to kind of divert from the usual album cycle and do more collaborations and one-offs and these things that have a lot less pressure on them than putting out this massive 55-minute block of work. And I come like, guys, just please make it happen, you know.

Yeah, you know, this is part of me that'd want to see that too. And I mean, I think there was a period like where they were not getting along, mainly because like I think Josh Tillman would make veiled dissing. Not very veiled. Not very veiled. Very overt. You would talk about how he was just completely miserable. And look, I've already stated my bias in this regard. I think he's exceeded what they've done on his own.

To me, the difference between Tillman and Fleet Fox's is that he writes beautiful songs that also have really funny and insightful lyrics, whereas I don't think Fleet Fox's lyrics are all that good. I again, I tend to think like if I'm paying attention to their lyrics, then it's not a good sign. I think they write very underrated lyrics. I don't know. It's okay. It kind of veers into precious this a little bit.

But like I think what happens with helplessness blues and like crack up the reason that they get such positive reviews despite the fact that, you know, maybe people like you and I sort of put them away for a while is that when you really lean into what. Robin's writing about, it's not these like kind of frivolous, like folk rocky sort of thing. Like as much as I love band of horses, when I lean into their lyrics, I'm like, I don't, like, the guy's got a song called Wheat Party. Like, I don't really know what's going on with those, but. See, I'd rather have that. Because I just feel like, I don't know if Robin, I appreciate his earnestness. Fleet Foxes need, flea foxes need to make their dudes rock turn. That's what you're saying. Well, well, I'm just saying that I think, you know, again, like he seems like a very earnest guy, very thoughtful, like a very nice person.

I'm sure he's a smart guy, but I just don't feel like his lyrics are all that insightful like when I've listened to them. That's my personal take. And going back to the Tillman thing, I wonder if on some level he looks at Fleet Foxes as high school

and like, do you want to go back to your high school? You know what I mean? But I don't know. It would be great. Like if they did like a duets record or something, if it was just like Tillman and Pecknull or they did like a song or two, that could be pretty cool.

Yeah. Indie cast needs to make it happen. Or should we go back to what we were saying earlier where they should start hating each other again and start doing some disses. That actually would be even better, I think. Yeah, because Josh Tillman is no longer doing the media thing, which to me is like,

I don't know, I feel like when Andre 3000 stopped rapping and started singing, it's like, dude, you're just giving such an incomplete, you know, view of your artistry. Oh yeah, it's like It's like Jordan retiring from the NBA in the mid-90s, man I hope he comes back and does interviews because I don't know, I've said this in many episodes

Can't leave rap alone, the game needs him Yeah, I don't know though I feel like he's going to stay away for a while And that's probably smarter for him Career-wise But being a journalist He needs to think about us, you know Exactly

Can someone please think about the podcasters once in a while. All right. We've now reached the part of the episode that we call Recommendation Corner where we talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, what do you recommend?

All right, so when I was looking recently at the Young Jesus Spotify page for fans also like one of the things that really cracked me up is that it was pretty much all bands that have been mentioned on this podcast. It was like wears and stay inside, stay inside, dog, like bands that really don't have a heck of a lot to do with each other,

but it leads me to think that maybe Indycast is becoming kind of a subgenre, maybe. I think so, Indycast Rock. Yeah, and in that event, like, my recommendation this week is pretty much within that realm. It's a band called Teenage Halloween. They just reached their self-titled new record on Don Giovanni, I believe, last week. And if we're if we're talking about like rolling stones list or like any sort of canonical list, like I think looking back on it, any any 2010s list that doesn't contain against me as transgender dysphoria blues is like kind of kidding itself. I think when we look at that record as setting forth a new path for like kind of like popular punk rock where it's music that addresses.

I guess whether it's like transgender dysphoria or like, you know, queer culture or just like different races or whatever. I think that really opened a lane for a lot of punk rock bands to do to engage with those sort of things in music. Absolutely. To engage it with music that sounds like very like fest like dude, like kind of dudes rock sort of music. and I think Teenage Halloween's record is very much an example of that. They are maybe the most New Jersey band you could imagine. They, not just in the sense that it sounds a little bit like Titus Andronicus where it's punk rock, but they put like, you know, some horns in there as well.

But if we're thinking about like bouncing souls or lifetime as well, and I think the vocals in some way remind me of get up kids. So if you like put all those things together, but just kind of addressing what it's like, like to be, you know, a queer person in 2020, like, struggling with or just like non-binary and struggling with those things and just our political system or like what it's like to try to like have a job these days. It all comes together and it's a very easy listen because it's about, I think it's like less than a half hour, but very punchy, very anthemic. Never really goes over the top and like where the skis, you know, go over a person's head. Like I, I,

think that it's a record that might have a little trouble finding its audience because this is the sort of thing. He makes you think, oh, I want to see this live or it or has to compete with, you know, Sufion Stevens and Deftones and, you know, Father John missed, not Father John Miss, see flea foxes for attention. But this is one where I can see the people who would like this kind of music. Basically, if you like anything that we've talked about here in recommendation corner, Teenage Halloween is going to be like right up your alley to the point where I'm like kind of shocked that it hasn't already happened. Well, the album I'm going to be talking about is something that like I feel like one of us

had to talk about this record on this podcast this week and it's the new record by the Deftones. Idols. Oh, Deftones, damn. It's called Oms. It's their ninth record. Of course, you and I both love Deftones. You love Deftones even more than me. Your big Deftones booster. Are you the biggest deftones booster in modern music criticism, would you say? They asked me to write the bio for the new record, which is why I won't be reviewing it. There you go. In some ways, I guess.

I mean, granted, there's probably like someone who at like, you know, Kerrang or like, you know, one of those sort of publications that's been like really putting in the work since like adrenaline. But I think that, I don't know, I would say that maybe in the indie sphere, I've been beating the drum for Deftones like maybe longer and harder than anyone else. It feels very rewarding right now to like think that like DefTones is on the level where it's

where it's like something that's considered like extremely important not just from the Kerang or like Rockhammer people but like amongst indie listeners. Well they've had a very consistent career of course. They've been around for 25 years. I actually interviewed Chino-Marino

recently where we talked about his entire discography and it was a great piece that did really well and I think the reason why readers responded to it is that Chino-Marina was very candid about the band's output talking about album sometimes not really being to his liking

and one record they talked about in particular was the previous Deftones record Gore which he had talked about being for him an instance of the band being really kind of disengaged from the process and it really became one of those things like where he felt like they knew that during the making of the record, but it was almost too late.

They had already made the record. So they put it out. They weren't terribly happy with it. That leads to... I cannot stand for the... I cannot stand for the Gore Slander. I think that record's awesome. But I totally get where they're coming from.

And of course you would say that because you're the biggest booster of Deftones in the Indiesphere, so thank you for saying that. But Chino was saying that he wasn't a big fan of Gore. leading up to this new record, Oams, and it does feel like a retrenchment in a way of them trying to almost like reboot themselves in a sense. They re-teamed up with Terry Date, the famed hard rock producer

who had worked on the first four Deftones records, hadn't worked with them in 17-some years, gets back involved in this record. And, you know, this is such a cliche to say about like a late period record by a legacy band, but it does feel like a return to form in a lot of ways. It is, I think, the heaviest record that they've made in a while. Like, if you are a fan of, like, those earlier Deftones records that Terry Date worked on,

and maybe you haven't been as, you know, into them lately, this is, I think, a record that you're going to want to reconnect with. And listening to it, it actually made me think a lot about the hum record that came out to see your inlet, where I think there are elements that those two records share specifically heavy riffing guitars and like cool synth sounds sort of laying a bed underneath them. There's a couple songs on the Deftones record that does that extremely well. And I do think also that the type of person that is going to love the Hum record, and I, we're both in that camp, they're definitely going to respond to this Deftones record.

Like, this is going to be the record you're going to want to hear this week more than these sort of folk rock records that we were talking about in the body of our podcast. If you're like, I don't want to hear Sufian Stevens or Fleet Foxes, I want something harder. This Deftones record is the one you're going to want to put on. Exactly. And I think that like the Hum reference, it totally makes sense because Hum is, you know,

always been one of the biggest influences on Deftones. They were actually one of the bands that played at the Dia Delaus Deftones Festival in 2019, them and like Megan East Stallion and other acts like that. But I mean the new Deftones record, like my opinion of it, I, you know, I don't think Deftones have ever made a record that's anything less than like pretty good. And I think this one is, it's really strong for a lot of the reason you mentioned. I think if I did have an issue with the ones that, you know, like Diamond Eyes or Koinojokin or Gore, it's at the production is was super like radio rock, like totally brick wall. then like if you listen to it on headphones, it kind of sounds like just,

it's like, it's almost like too loud, which is something you probably shouldn't say about a Deftones record. But I think that this one almost, almost similar to, um, sure is that in a way, it's a bit of a referendum on an album that wasn't entirely popular

amongst, uh, you know, the band or the listeners. It's more like, yeah, here, here's,

here's what we want. You know, we know, we know you, you want to see Steph Carpenter play a nine-string guitar. I mean, I get Carpal Tunnel just looking at these videos. This guitar is just out of control. I think it's the type of record that will be very well-received,

particularly because, you know, the type of person who's going to review a Deftone's record in 2020, it's the type of person who was very into the band. They get this shot once every four years to, like, here's why Deftones is, like, as important as all these other bands that seem cooler. And will it, I don't know, will it stand the test of time

alongside like white pony or around the fur? I'm not sure. But I definitely think that this one, when we start to inevitably do, you know, Deftone's ranking albums on Twitter, I think this will hang in the midsection.

You know, it's definitely going to hang higher than like, say, the self-title, their Saturday Night Rist, but a little below the first tier. So it's like, Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a strong deaf tones record for people who love deaf tones records. Yeah, I mean, I think for a, I mean, and I think like a legacy band that's like 25 years into

their career, like, that's a pretty great achievement to like get into the middle. You know, honestly, because you're not necessarily looking for the band. I mean, look, if they made a record as good as White Pony in 2020, that'd be incredible. But, you know, that's not terribly realistic. I mean, bands don't usually do that. But to do a record that, like, is maybe like they're, you know, what, like fourth best record or fifth best record? That's like a pretty great achievement, I think.

Yoletango status, you know, like, release that really good record that, like, maybe pops in at number 42 on your end lists and, you know, just keep it moving. And, you know, you're not going to hit the high watermarks of the 90s or 2000s. But, I mean, the fact that, like, Deftones are around this long. And when you look at, like, who their peers were, not even just, like, the new metal bands, but like, I don't know, like smashing pumpkins or whatever. It's kind of amazing that, like, they're still making records that are not just like tolerable or not embarrassing, but like super good. Yeah, like once they move the needle.

Yeah, like they're one of those bands that you're like, oh yeah, like they have a new record coming out. I actually want to hear that. I'm excited about it. Like I have an expectation that this is going to be good, which, yeah, like most bands that put out their debut in 1995, I don't think you would say that about in 2020. although I guess Hum Are they the exception? Because is Inlet their best album? No, I would not say it's their best album, but at the same time, like they...

I mean, they don't have as many albums. It's definitely in the top three. Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think it's a pretty... I know, it's awesome, but I wouldn't put it up against, like, you'd prefer an Ashton. I think that's the classic. But to me, but, like, also, HUM wasn't releasing albums, you know, like throughout the

2000s and... the 2010s that like I can't think of like it's really hard to think of a popular rock band who's you know been as I don't know if prolifics the right word because they don't release albums

particularly often but who have sustained that level of quality for as long as deaf tones have no I they're really I it's really it's really really hard to think of like anyone aside from I don't know maybe like radio head

Yeah, or, I mean, you mentioned Yola Tango before. They're a band that still puts out. But I'm talking about like a popular rock band, like a major label rock band. Absolutely. And they are, I think, prolific in that sphere. Like, to put out a record at their age every four years or so, I mean, that there aren't, I mean, like Radiohead, for instance, they've put out four records, what, in the last, say, like 15 years or so, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, they put out albums like every five or six years now. So yeah, like for Deftones to continue that pace, I think, is pretty impressive. So we love that record, I think, or we're at least recommending it, both of us. On board, totally. And I'm going to definitely check out. Best record we've talked about today. I'm going to check out Teenage Halloween.

I'm excited to do that for the Indycast core fans out there. We have come to the end of our episode. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out. trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.