Indiecast - The Fall Of Pitchfork, The Weirdness Of 2024 Music Festivals + A (Bad) New Green Day Album

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

Steven and Ian recorded this week's episode a day earlier than normal, which means that the guys just missed the big (and bad) news about Pitchfork suffering massive layoffs and being folded into GQ. So they got together later and recorded an emergency 30-minute segment about what this all means for the fragile music media ecosystem and put it before the proper episode.In the proper episode, they did a quick Sportscast (27:09) about the shocking rise of Steven's Green Bay Packers and the even more shocking fall of Ian's Philadelphia Eagles. They also did an update on the Fantasy Albums draft, with Ian deciding for some reason to let Steven swap in the new Faye Webster album into his lineup. Will Ian regret this decision? We shall see! (34:21)After that, they take a look at early festival announcements for Coachella and Bonnaroo, which seem ... sort of random? Like, what is going on with these music festivals these days? They make no sense! (39:37) Then they talk about the new Green Day album out today, Saviors, which Steven thinks is very, very ... well, listen to the episode to find out which adjective applies. (57:28)In Recommendation Corner (1:14:25), Ian talks up the incredible new album from Glass Beach while Steven hypes his recent column ranking every Radiohead album, solo album, and side project.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 172 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey everyone. This is Steve. We are, me and Ian, we're talking right now. It's Thursday morning. We actually recorded our episode a day early this week. We recorded on Wednesday. And we're going to get to the regular episode here in a minute. But Ian and I wanted to have a conversation here about the pitchfork news. This came down, man, maybe like two or three hours after we've. not recording our episode this week. We normally would have caught it, but I had to reschedule this week for reasons that maybe I'll talk about next week. It doesn't seem appropriate to talk about right now.

But anyway, for those who don't know, it was announced on Thursday, or on Wednesday, I should say, that Pitchfork is being folded into GQ. Both publications, of course, are owned by Condé Nast. there were major layoffs at Pitchfork. It's unclear to me. I believe that there are still some staffers at Pitchfork, but some longtime people were let go, people who had been there for almost 20 years,

thinking of... Longer than even me. Yeah, people like Amy Phillips, Ryan Dombel, as well as some other staffers there. Of course, Ian and I send out our support and love to those who were in there. who lost their jobs this week. That's a terrible thing.

Although they're all very talented and very experienced people. I have faith and expectation that they are going to land somewhere and be just fine. But the state of pitchfork right now is in flux, to say the least, as we are recording right now,

there were no new reviews posted today. There actually is. Well, there is now. Yeah, because one of the things I was wondering is if, you know, Pitchfork was going to be stuck in this rictus grin for eternity with that 21 Savage review being the last thing ever published. But today they have a Bruiser Wolf review up and they have some news pieces. Because I didn't go up right at midnight as usually.

No. Because I know people were checking. And there's also, you know, they stopped tweeting for a while. I don't know if they're doing that again. I mean, they laid off so many people that it's almost unclear, like, who's even there to run the site at the moment. But, you know, clearly, Pitchfork is a very important publication, particularly in indie music. You know, are they still going to exist? Is it going to be GQ pitchfork?

Is it going to be the GQ music festival in Chicago now? I don't know. I was talking with a friend yesterday, and he was speculating that it might be like the New York Times and the athletic, where the athletic became the de facto sports section of the New York Times. The New York Times got rid of their old sports section. But this is in reverse, where pitchfork, you know, the vertical is being hollowed out and being subsumed into a GQ. So that, it's unclear what's going to happen there. Who knows if even Condé Ness knows what they're going to do. But I want to hear from you, Ian. I mean, look, I've written for pitchfork in the past, but I don't consider myself a pitchfork writer. You know, the things I wrote, I think I've got somewhere between a dozen

and maybe 18 bylads or something. Just I've dabbled there in the past, happy to have written for them, of course. But you've been a fixture of the place for a long time. I'm just wondering, like, what are your feelings right now, you know, in the aftermath of this whole thing? Yeah, you use the term folded into GQ.

I think we have to take Anna Wintor at her word and say that it's been evolved into GQ. Yeah, that's what she said in her statement. It was a very vague statement. Yeah, it's been evolved into GQ. We have assessed Pitchfork's performance. We feel that GQ does great music coverage and Pitchfork does great music coverage and we can essentially reduce redundancies. I mean, she didn't use that term, but that was the implication of the statement.

that was put out. Like it's it's it's it's quite literally breaking up with somebody and saying that we're evolving our relationship just that you're like no longer a part of it. I mean it as far as like how this actually happened. I mean I think that um I mean oh the past five years let's call it I've been kind of in a slow motion grieving process of yeah of of uh of I guess not being. as much a part of the site as a writer or as like a target demographic. Because, yeah, I mean, as I said on Twitter yesterday, like, I cannot, it feels weird to say this, but I think it's ultimately true that I cannot think of like something that's been this much of a fixture, a constant in my life over the past 25 years, and maybe even more.

I mean, distinct memories of being in the college library because I didn't have the internet and the place I lived reading about emergency and I in 1999. I mean, going back as far as as far back as like almost the site itself. And, you know, I've written, I think, more review. Actually, I know. I've written more reviews than like anyone else in the site's history by a factor of a lot. So, yeah. You're the Pete Rose of Pitchfork.

You are the batting champion of that site. And, you know, some people reached out to me yesterday saying, like, hey, man, like, you know, how you're feeling about it? And, I mean, look, I've, I wrote maybe eight or so reviews last year. You know, my heart obviously goes out more to the people whose, like, livelihood is endangered by this evolution, as it were. And, you know, like, I've gotten used to the concept that a lot of, like, what's happened over the past, I don't know, decade or so has been a shift away from a lot of the music and the kind of writing style that I did. So it was a little hard not to personalize that in a way that wasn't particularly healthy. But I think ultimately the direction it was headed was kind of necessary.

You know, it's, I don't think it was ever, oh, we got to like change up our coverage to, you know, get those clicks or whatever. I think people ascribe far, far, far too high of ideals and conspiracies to, you know, this place and they have from time of memorial but I think it just had to evolve it evolved in a way that like was in lockstep with music as a whole so I'm not like the type who's gonna say well they had it coming because they started covering you know Taylor Swift or whatever I mean yeah I mean because that's come up you know people saying like oh they're using like the pop-timism word like they would pop and like now they're being

punished for it which is like a ridiculous thing to say Do you really think that pitchfork would have been in a better position if they were just covering indie rock in 2024? Is there a thought like, oh, the money would have been rolling in big time if they had just done that? I mean, it's totally illogical. And if you, and you've seen chatter about this already, you know, from people in the know at Kandai Nest. There was a person from the company who tweeted about this talking about how pitchfork had really good traffic. They were among the most well-trapped. trafficked titles in the Condé Nast stable of titles.

And, you know, from what I understand, they were profitable. They were, they were, this was not a site on the way out. They were doing well. The situation here, I think, is the sale to Condé Nast to begin with in 2015. And look, we're going to find out more about this as the days go on. And, you know, there's a lot that we don't know as outsiders here. But looking at it from the outside looking in, it just feels like pitchfork started in Ryan Schreiber's basement. It grew because there were people who were passionate about the site.

It was an independent place. It did really well, but it was a relatively small endeavor. It wasn't a huge staff. There wasn't a huge business apparatus with it. they were able to thrive because it was a popular site and they were operating on, I'm guessing, relatively small profit margins. Yeah, they weren't paying their writers until like 2005 or 6. And then there was that window of time, I guess from 06 to, you know, 15 where it seems like from the business perspective maybe of that site. Like they were doing really well.

I mean, they were growing, they were trying different sites. There was altered zones. It was the film site with my ex. The dissolve. Shout to nothing major. I was there for all of them. My colleagues from the A.B. Club started that place after the A.B. club imploded.

And they were thriving. And you get into a corporate situation at Kandaneast. And look, I looked this up this morning. Do you know where Kondi Nass's offices are? It's like in the one world trade or like what the former One World Trade Center is, right? one world trade center. Now, I'm not an expert on office rentals, but I'm willing to bet that the rent in the World Trade Center is among the highest in the world. So just imagine the amount of money Kande Nast has to make just to pay their rent in this office building that to me

signals a sign of delusion in the 21st century, that Kande Nast is an old publishing company that still has tremendous overhead and is paying for this, I would say, unnecessary infrastructure that just sucks up so much money. You have these old school executives there, editors, whoever, who are, I'm sure, pretending like it's still 1992. You know, you've got the expense account. You're showing up at these events. Just spending tremendous amounts of money, throwing money away, essentially.

And you just think of like how many staffers could have been paid with the money that still gets thrown away at a company like Condé Nast because they don't want to accept that realities have changed. And if you want to be a successful publishing company in this era, you have to operate smaller. You have to be leaner. You have to be smarter with where you spend your money. And, you know, I just feel like because of those poor decisions, things like this happen. You have a company that, like, look, Anna Wintour, do you think she's ever read Pitchfork? Do you think she has any affinity for this site? She doesn't care.

There's no personal connection. You're thinking it's like Mr. Burns waking up from like his ether delusions, realizing he's financed the pin pals. Yeah, it's like a line on a spreadsheet, you know. It's a rounding error. Yeah, there's no personal connection there. And, you know, it's great up front. You get the money from this company. You get the prestige.

you know, being in the Kandai Nas stable, it put pitchfork in a strata where now they're getting national magazine awards because, you know, in order to get a national magazine award, you have to be in that cabal of media titles that are considered prestigious enough. And Kandai Nas gives you that prestige and that's great. But the negative side of that is that you're in a bloated company and it's filled with people who don't care about where you come from. They're not You know, like Anna Wintour wasn't listening to Deer Hunter in 2008. That's not true. She sent me a personal note thanking me for putting her on to Hotline T&T.

I think we got to give Anna some credit here. I mean, I just know, like, for me, you know, I think that in 2024, I mean, if we're going to look at pitchfork, if we're going to, like, look at this in a big picture sense, I think it's really hard to be a website that only covers music. Absolutely. And I was a little surprised that Pitchfork didn't make the pivot to like doing TV and movie coverage. I mean, I feel like they dabbled in that a little bit. Yeah, absolutely.

But, you know, looking at my own career, like, I've never worked at a place that only wrote about music. Like, I worked at the AV Club, and that was primarily known for TV and movie writing. And they did music too, but TV and movie brought a lot of people in. I worked at Grantland, sports obviously, as well as other pop culture. Uprocks, I mean, music is a big part of what we do, but like, so was food writing and travel writing and TV and movie and sports. And not only does that just bring in more eyeballs, it also attracts different kinds of advertisers, you know, and if you're going to just be at a music audience, I think that's really hard to do.

And the only way to me that you can survive as a music-only website is to go back to what pitchfork was in the beginning. A small site, you know, narrow profit margins, you don't spend a lot of money, you operate small. And I think that can work. I think you can actually probably make a pretty good living doing something like that. If someone wants to take that up. But to get sucked into a machine like Hyundai Nest, I just think, I don't want to say it's inevitable, but that personal element, that investment that the people running the place had at the beginning, I just think that gets diluted when you get sucked into that kind of place where they're not coming from the same place that this site came from in the beginning. Yeah, I mean, I think we all kind of recognize that something like this might occur eventually at with the Condé NASS sale or just that.

I mean, because it was doing pretty well. And also, like, I think compared to some of the other titles under that umbrella, it probably works on a much, much, much smaller overhead than, say, like, Vogue or whatever. But, you know, I think the reason that this seems so much more of an end of times affair than it otherwise would be if it was just, you know, the usual, like, hey, we're cutting staff is the fold into GQ. I think that was just like kind of a final insult because I like I wonder how this would be received if it was say folded into teen vogue because a lot of the things you hear about with teen vogue and I mean this is a compliment is that you know teen vogue is like covering a lot more politics it's covering a lot more about identity it's got like its finger on the pulse in a kind of similar ways that you know modern day pitchfork did and that would make kind of or just Vogue in general, but the fact that it was, you know, put into a publication that has the name, like, basically men in its title.

Yeah, I mean, the optics of it are not great. Just Pist4, yeah. If you consider, you know, the leadership at Pitchfork in the last several years, it was led by women. There was an obvious movement to put more focus on music made by women, music by people of color, music from the LGBTQ community. And GQ has been shifting a little more, because I read GQ. Oh, of course.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not like we're talking about a blender or something, you know, in 2002. I mean, yeah, GQ. It's folding into Maxim. I mean, I think GQ's done some great stuff. They've done some great music profiles. I mean, you know, there's good people working there, you know, Zach Barron. I mean, Chris Heath, I think, is still there.

He's like one of the great music. Yeah, Alex Paphamus. Yeah. Yeah, great profiles of all. time. But yeah, the optics of it, it just makes it feel like, oh, we're course correcting back to something that's more like dude-oriented or something. And that doesn't look great. I just like want to say one other thing, you know, whenever something like this happens, you know, publication gets shuttered, website shut down, people get laid off. You get the people coming out

saying music journalism is dead, music criticism is dead, you know, everything is over. And in the case of pitchfork, obviously, it feels. I think more intense because pitchfork is such an established name. I mean, you feel like this was going to be the site of all sites that was going to survive. And I mean, I'm not sure if they're done or not people are talking about them in the past tense. I mean, we'll see how things evolve, but certainly it feels like the end of an era. But I just like want to say, like, the people out there who are in their early 20s and you want to get into music writing, when Ryan Shriver started Pitchfork, it was a situation where, you know, the internet was just getting started,

and you were in a situation where people had to learn about music by reading music magazines. And it was a very stifling time. Things felt very consolidated. It felt like there weren't a lot of voices being heard. And you couldn't read about a lot of different kinds of music. I mean, the amount of music coverage was so narrow. I mean, if people complain now, oh, like, websites care too much about Taylor Swift or they care too much about Beyonce or whatever, it was way worse in the 90s because you had these corporate magazines that the focus was so narrow. There were whole genres that never even got covered at all.

I mean, certainly people can do a better job of covering different kinds of stuff now, but there's no comparison. Things are way more diverse now than they were 30 years ago. But Ryan Schreiber started this site because he felt like there was music that he loved that wasn't being talked about. And he made a site and it evolved over many years. And it became important because one, it was entertaining to read. Even people who hated it, it was entertaining to hate read. You know, you could hate read it. I mean, look at me, man.

I rereviewed Andrew W.K's, I get wet and fevers and mirrors. I was like reading this site like man fuck these guys I got a right for them yeah exactly and I hate these guys and I can't wait to see what they say next you know that was the thing so it was one entertaining and two it was a place that people went to because they knew they would discover music that they loved like they trusted the site it would so it was entertaining and it was useful to them and I would say if you're young start a blog and remember the audience don't write for other music or writers. Don't say I'm starting a site because we need to support music writing and it's like a charity. Don't take that perspective. Take the perspective of, hey, there's people out there who want to be entertained and they want to know about cool stuff. And we're going to do that for them. And if you do that, you can build something of your own. Like music writing's not dead. Music criticism is not dead. You can do it. You just have to have a vision for it and you have to keep the audience in mind. The audience is there. They want it. You know, you got to serve them. And these things,

getting subsumed by corporations who don't know how to build cool stuff, this creates a lane for you. This is an opportunity for you to do something cool and pick up the baton from the previous generation. So that's my pep talk. Don't listen to the pessimistic people. There's reason for you to be inspired and you can seize the day. I'm like Robin Williams now and it's a Yeah, I mean, I do wonder, you know, whether, like, whether this is going to lead to, I don't know, like a revolution or just of blogging or maybe coming back. But I think, I think of that in terms of what it was like being, like, in the, what some people would describe as like kind of the golden age of blogging of like, you know, mid-aughts or what have you. And even still, like, it was, pitchfork was still like kind of the sun of these blogs. revolved around. Like I remember a quote from like Ryan Shriver. We were just kind of talking internally.

And he was like, you know, when people say like, oh, you know, why doesn't pitchwork have a comment section? He would say, well, the internet is her comment section. And I think it'll just, this is kind of like where, I mean, I'm like sad for the state of like music criticism, but I'm just, it'll just be kind of odd to have it not there. You know, to have it just kind of like this kind of hollow space where, you know, even if it is functioning in a kind of an ESPN sort of way where it's just like where you go to check the scores and so forth. Yeah, it'll still be just such a massive adjustment. And I do wonder if there's going to, like every time something like this happens, people talk about like a defector type site emerging, like, you know, kind of

similar to stereo gum, which is a worker run, worker owned. And by the way, I don't think we can overlook the possibility that this may be like kind of a union busting sort of thing. Legal at Uprox, please tell me if this constitutes slander. But, you know, I do, when I think about that, though, the possibility of like a defector type, you know, uprising, I just remember what you were saying earlier, which is that defector works because they cover sports. They cover a whole number of other art forms besides music. And, you know, I do, I just wonder, like, how things will evolve, how the conversation will evolve without this kind of central hub where people go to for music reviews.

Because, I mean, we've always talked about this theoretically. Like, if pitchfork is shuttered, what happens to the music review? I think it'll still exist. But, like, will it matter as much? Like, I mean, you've seen a lot of, like, bands and PR people and label people. talking about like how this impacts them and how they're sad about it as well so i mean it is it is uh like you said it's very interesting and maybe interesting is like not the best word uh maybe you could say scary or foreboding but music existed before pitchfork you know and it'll exist

it after that you know what i mean something else will come along because look the audience is there people love music and they want to talk about music and they want to learn about music and it's just the matter of someone connecting with that audience or connecting with a audience you know and and that is your job if you're going to do this for a living you need to find an audience and those people are there and they want they want someone to communicate with them and um as sad as this is and again like it i don't know sad. Well, it's like, but are we doing the funeral for pitchfork? I'm still not totally sure what is in store for them, you know.

So I'm a little reluctant to talk about them totally in the past tense until it's definitively said that they're done. I mean, it's like they're in the hospital right now in a coma. You don't know if they're going to wake up or not. I mean, that's how I feel about pitchfork at the moment. So I don't want to say was instead of is with them yet. But again, I think if you're young, because I always feel like people always dump on young people and they always say you missed it. It was great 20 years ago, but it's over now and now you're screwed and nothing's going to be good because it's dead. And I don't want to be that person

because I do think when you see a world where there's a void, you can fill that void if you've got the right idea. So that's all I would say to those people. Like don't be dispirited. Try to look at it as an opportunity that if you're creative you can come up with something like the new way you know because look the 800 word record review with the number score next to it that's not the only way to write about music or to review music you know there's other things that we're fuck i'm fuck then i mean you could for instance start the world's first indie rock podcast i mean that is another way to review music um so anyway i don't know again we're sad about this our hearts go out to the people who lost their jobs. Again, I think you're all very talented people. I feel confident that you will be

good in the long run, but I know that you put your hearts and souls into that place, and it sucks to have an end this way. It just is. Well, on that note, yeah, by the way, I mean, I'm like wondering, since we're on a roll, like, if we were going to do an emergency podcast, I mean, we were probably going to do one anyway because, like, Sunday Day real estate it was teasing new music and we got an Anthony Keatus biopic. I mean, gosh, all that shit that got swept under the rug because

you know, the pitchfork calamity. Yeah. Yeah, I know. We'll have to save some shit for next week. Yeah, our emergency pod's going to be as long as our regular pod. So we should stop now. Let's get to the real Indicast. Here it is. Cue the music, Brian.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. on the show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, we review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the state of music festivals and the new Green Day album. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He hopes Nick Siriani is fired by the time this episode posts. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? I appreciate how in a week where we lost, not lost, but three godlike figures of the coaching for turn. and he stepped down, and then there's a guy who got to the Super Bowl just last year on a, like, given months to figure out, hey, what if we just like blitz, jailing hurts every single down, like a 12-year-old playing Madden? And this guy's got no answer for it at all. Like, how do you lose 32 to 9 to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and, like, in a game where Tampa Bay plays like complete ass? I'm just fascinated by how bad this team is now.

It's really saying to behold. And by the way, we're doing a quick sports cast here because the Eagles, Ian's team, they had one of the worst collapses I've ever seen from a great team. I mean, they were in the Super Bowl last year. They were 10 and 1 this year. Completely fell off the map. You got Nick Siriani. Maybe he's still emotionally bereft from the national anthem at last year's Super Bowl.

Like he hasn't recovered emotionally. From the power of that, he's still weeping about it. Completely forgot about that. Fuck. That's the thing I always think about with Nick Siriani. That stupid clip of him, you know, just, I mean, he seems like a buffoon to me. I can't stand that guy. He just seems like somebody who wants to present a certain image of himself to the world.

And it's so phony. I mean, he's like a Joe Rogan pro coach to me. Like he probably listens to Rogan, I would guess. It was like after Blonde came out, you'd see like all these indie guys like saying like, oh yeah, we sound like Frank Ocean. Now we're really influenced by that. And I think he's like part of that coaching fraternity where like everyone wanted to have their own version of Shaw McVeigh. So you get a guy who looks like they could just as easily be working in finance.

Yeah, I'm only interested in him keeping his job just to see what happens if they, like even if the Eagles start the preseason 0 and 2. You might see an on-field revolt. I'm in for that. I don't want to see a 7 and 19. I mean, putting Matt Patricia in as the defensive coordinator in the last

two months, I mean, that is like an all-time move. Yeah, it's like Rob Cavallo producing the new Green Day album. Like, where has this guy been hiding the past 10th? Well, I don't want to skip to the preview of the Green Day album, but that's kind of the equivalent. Yeah, I'm not in a hurry to talk about that album. I'll say that right now.

I'm dragging my feet to that conversation, but I feel like we're burying the lead here, at least for me, because the Green Bay Packers, that game that they played against the Cowboys, that is the most fun I've had watching sports in about 14 years, like since the Packers went to the Super Bowl in 2010. And it was a similar scenario that year because they went in as a wild card, and they had to win three straight road games in order to make it to the Super Bowl. I am assuming that the 49ers are going to destroy us this weekend. I am not feeling confident about that.

Oh, but it doesn't matter. It's like we beat the Cowboys. We're not even supposed to be here. That game against the Cowboys, it was like, and I'm sorry to be speaking in the language of Bruce Springsteen, I don't know if you'll appreciate this or not, but to me that... I'm not.

I'm talking with the boss. That game was like listening to the Jungleland Sacks solo for three hours straight. Like that's just how it felt. It was like so just triumphant and emotionally satisfying. You couldn't throw in like a Bodine's reference, like something a little more geographically specific? I'm just saying, the Bodians catalog as much as I respect it, does not have a moment sufficiently triumphant. I guess you could say the opening guitar riff of closer to free. The way that sounds, maybe you could say that, although I wouldn't want to listen to that for three straight hours.

But in the NFC playoffs, you've got the Packers, Lions, and Buccaneers, all from the division of my youth, the NFC Central. Right, the old NFC Central. Because it's the NFC North now and the Bucks are in the NFC South. But the NFC Central representing, we're probably all going to lose to the 49ers, but that's okay. I still love that the Central is representing. Shout out to Detroit, by the way.

Love Detroit, love the Lions. I don't know if we've ever gotten a letter or email from Detroit, but I'm sure we've got some Indycast listeners there. We've gotten from like other parts of Michigan, not necessarily Detroit. Like Detroit's maybe a little too highfalutin for Indicast. We like the more kind of ex-urban centers of Michigan culture. Who are the current indie standard bears situated in Detroit?

Like, is Greek death from Detroit? They're from Michigan. Okay. Yeah, Detroit, well. I'm sure they're Lions fans. Greet Death, they've got to be Lions fans. Yeah, I think so. We got a few.

Well, historically, though, obviously, you've got the great fans from the 60s. Well, yeah, that's... I was going to say the Stooges. You can go to Sponge right away. I was going to say the Stooges, MC5. You got Bob Seeger, and then you get a little bit later. You've got, obviously, the white stripes.

You got the band that Jack White beat up. The Von Bondi's, I can not believe you brainfarted on that one. Well, I remember, I was about to say Von Bondes. There was no brain fart there. I decided to be funnier to describe them as the band that Jack White beat up. Don't, hey, man, don't step to me on my knowledge of Upper Midwest, rock, okay? I am the kingpin of rock critics talking about the Upper Midwest. But anyway, great game by the Packers.

Sorry about the Eagles. Do you want Siriani gone? Because you said that you kind of want him to hang around just to see what happens. Are you joking there? No, I want him to suffer. Like, I want, like, just because, like, I agree with you and that when I look at his face, I just see someone who is, like, so over their head and wrongfully so. Like, I like Detroit because, like, Dan Campbell, like,

even though I think his whole bit is a little bit, like, full of shit. At least he, like, fully buys into it. Yeah, I think that Nick Siriani is, like, some version of, like, the tech bro CEO that's been put up as head coach. I need him to suffer. Like, they, he needs to suffer the repercussions for this past year. Because what I see is that if he gets fired now, some team's going to, like, pick him up as, like, an offensive consultant. And then two years later, he'll be, like, interviewing for the Panthers job. What if you get a shot at Belichick?

What if he wants to come to Philly? I mean, you want Belichick over... He's got the disposition, right? Belichick's got the disposition for Philly. I'd be into it, but I think this team is just so fundamentally broken. They just got to fumigate the place. I just feel like Belichick there makes all the sense in the world, and I think he could turn it around pretty quickly

because you've got a great team. It's just like... Vibes. Your offense? Yeah, it's bad vibes, but it's like, you know, They're showing like the replays of the offense and there's like nobody in the middle of the field. It just seems like they're just playing backyard football or something. Again, like me, like playing Madden.

Like, let's do four verts. Like that's their only, that's their only thing that they do. They do like curls or verts. And like that's like when I'm like just kind of zoning out playing Matt like playing Madden or NCAA football. I'm like, I'll just pick this play, whatever. All right. Well, okay, enough sports cast. For now.

We'll stop that for now. Let's do a fantasy update. You are on the board already. You picked the Kelly Uchis record that dropped on Friday. Currently has a Metacritic score of 87. Is that above your expectations, or is that what you thought she was going to be able to do for you? Yeah, I felt like mid-80s was what I was looking for.

And you know what, this is actually a good album. Actually, I know they're an acclaimed artist, but I really enjoyed this album. I listened to it while watching The Lions this weekend. And I was surprised by how much reverb is on it, like between that and like the ethereal kind of singing and lyrics I can't understand because they're in Spanish. It's kind of like a dream pop album.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good record. Yeah. And it was a very good choice. Again, I don't have a ton of confidence in my lineup versus your lineup. I think you had a really good draft. Again, the jazz pick. I thought, man, that's a really good pick.

I actually wanted to do a little proposition with you here because a new Fay-Webster album was announced I think the day after we recorded. It might have been the day that the episode posted last week. Fay Webster, again, very acclaimed artist. She's definitely on the rise. I feel like this record is a slam dunk. She was a second liner at Coachella, I think.

Yeah, she's really blowing up. She's doing very well. So, you know, I wanted to propose a little trade with you. You could say no, but this is what I'm proposing. You let me take Faye Webster. I'll give you 75 points and a guaranteed first round pick in the next draft. And you can pick first or you can pick second and get the two picks. But I'll just give you 75 points.

but you just can add right now to your score. And you get a guaranteed first round pick. So you get like six, six choices now? Yeah, but you have, you have like 75 points. So just added to your score. So you don't have another record, but you have like this. It's like I'm giving you a pile of money, essentially. And then I'm trading like a, I'm giving you a guaranteed first round pick.

do you accept that trade? Well, I'm trying to think of the mechanics of it. You see, I'm like tempted because I heard the Faye Webster song with Lil Yadi, and I didn't think it was very good. I'm like wondering if this artist has peaked. But 75 points, I guarantee she's going to top that. So the guaranteed first pick, I am so trusting of my ability to find diamonds in the rough that that is not a compelling choice.

So I'll think it through. I'm not saying no definitively, but you might have to sweeten the offer. What if I give you 80? You know, I think that the modern critical, I think the state of critical thinking right now, like guarantees that Faye Webster is going to get at least an 84. So not there yet. So are you officially turning down the offer or are you going to consider it? I will let you switch out any of your choices for Faye Webster.

Just straight up train. Yeah, you get to do a redo. All right. I got to dig out my lineup here. Where was that? Let me look here for a sec. Let's see. My lineup.

Okay, I've got the smile. I have Julia Holter. I have Serpent with Feet. I have Manic and Pussy. I have Katie Kirby. Okay. I'll take out Serpent with Feet. and put in Fay Webster.

I think that's a good call. Like I, you know, I was a little bit skeptical about that one for you because, yeah, I get the strategy. It's kind of, you know, they're an established kind of left-the-center R&B leaning artist, but I do wonder if that artist has peaked. So, yeah, I think just to make it more interesting, yeah, you trade a servant with feet for Fay Webster. So this is pure charity.

I don't have to give you any compensation. I don't have to give you like a future draft guarantee or anything. You're just letting me do this. Nope. We're, yep, just out of the kindness of my heart. All right. I'll take the charity. I'll take the charity.

I am not a proud man. I will take out Serpurn with feet. I'm putting in Fay Webster. Now I feel really good about my lineup. I feel good. I think this is going to be a good matchup. You won the first draft, so I have to try to even it up here. But I'm feeling pretty good about it.

So I guess I feel like a little emasculated that you just let me do this. That was not the intent, but I can see that perspective. All right. I'm not going to feel that way. I'm just going to take the charity and move on. Sometimes you need a little helping hand in life. There's nothing wrong with that. Let's talk about music festivals. Ian, this is a topic that you and I start talking about, usually around this time of year,

because this is when the big festivals start announcing their lightups. the biggest festival of all announced this week, which is Coachella. And, you know, we're getting to the point. And I think I'm already probably well past this point, where I don't know if I'm a good judge of lineups for these kinds of festivals. Because to me, this lineup looks kind of weak. But I'm not a 22-year-old college student from Southern California. You know, like, I am a 46-year-old man from Minnesota.

I am probably the last person that, what is it, golden voice? The golden voice, yeah, yeah. I'm like the last person they care about. But anyway, for the headliners, we have Lana Del Rey, Tyler, the creator, and Doja Cat. And no doubt. I love that at the end. And no doubt. Yeah, and like, okay, yeah.

So at the end, they have and then they have like, Dot, dot, dot, dot, no doubt. Like, what does that mean? Does that mean that they're headlining on Sunday, too, with Doja Cat? I think it's maybe, like, soccer or whatever, where you got, like, the striker you put in for, like, the last 10 minutes. Because, as we remember last year, like, Frank Ocean had to tap out and they just happened. Oh, we got Blink 182 ready to go. So, yeah, just bring out, like, your 90s, Scott adjacent, pop punk adjacent, SoCal artist, just in case, you know, Doja Cat.

or Tyler the creator somehow decides that this isn't worth their time. But I don't think that Golden Voice has completely forsaken our demographic. Because the thing that stood out the most to me about the line of is that blur. Like even after the disaster of 2013 that we've mentioned many a time on this podcast, they still have a bigger font than like Ice Spice. Right. Who is this for? They're like the second performer listed on Saturday.

Yeah. You have Tyler Creator number one who is a very worthy headliner along with Lana Del Rey. Doja Cat, there's kind of like a weird thing here where they have no doubt below. Well, they're not even like in the proper part of the poster. They're like kind of set apart. It's kind of like when you look at, like when you go to a movie and they decide like they're going to put like all the actors and then they say, and Robert De Niro as the grandpa or something. Like that's what no doubt is.

And this is like a no doubt reunion, right? Like, aren't they not together? I don't know. I honestly don't know. Like, they've always been in that sort of status of like, maybe they're around hiatus. But yeah. Do they have the juice in Southern California? I guess, you know, people care about no doubt there still.

I mean, absolutely. Especially when you look at this lineup where you have sublime, not with Rome, but with Bradley Knowles' son who's the same age as Bradley Noel when he died. Right. They were waiting for that. They're like, okay, we got to wait until he's

Bradley Noel's age and then we're going to plug him in. And they just like got rid of Rome. Like they used to be sublime with Rome. Now it's just sublime. I'm surprised they didn't go with like sublime with Bradley Noel's son. Like that could have been part of the new band title.

But now it's like, oh, we have like a DNA link to the. original lead singer so we can just go back to just being known as sublime. Yeah, like Zach Starkey status. No, no, I'm not going to make fun of Zach Starkey. I know that you're Oh man. Come on. He's great. I love Zach Starkey. I don't know. Maybe Jacob Noll will surprise us. Maybe he can play guitar like, you know, better than a motherfucking riot. Oh my God. But uh, the sublime thing, people keep trying to critically rehab sublime. Can we nip that in the bud? I'm sorry. I've defended a lot a questionable 90s rock.

So maybe I'm not the person to be thrown stones here. But like, Sublime sucks. They suck, man. I hate Sublime. They have, like, three or four songs that are still on the radio all the time. It is instant groaner for me when they come on. I'm sorry, I smoked weed in the mid-90s, too. I've got memories of listening to 40 ounces of freedom.

When I was 19, it was pretty fun back then. But come on, nostalgia has its limits. That band sucks ass. Yeah, between them and also, we don't get Blinkway to this year, but we get the Aquabats, which is Travis Parker's old band. I do wonder if the drummer from No Doubt, Adrian, something or other, looks at like Travis Barker and thinks, that should have been me. Because, like, you could tell from those old videos or just No Doubt's entire thing that he really saw himself as like the SoCal pop punk drummer that was going to be on reality television. And that guy just got completely while he pipped up in there. Yeah, it's funny.

Like, I don't like Sublime. As a matter of fact, what I got is one of my least favorite songs of all time. I think Blinkway 8-2 kind of suck. It's really amazing that I actually live in Southern California, given the representatives they had sent to Alt Rock Radio at that time because you had no doubt, Hey, Baby, another song I cannot fucking stand for the life of me. I do I do like some No Doubt songs. Sublime, Blink 182, like, I couldn't.

For years, for decades, I thought that was what Southern California was really like. And it still kind of is, but yeah, I am not going to be down for the No Doubt Revival, which is, you know, we got to write about something. There's no demand for that. There's no demand for that. I'm sorry. There's no demand. No one's asking for No doubt to come back. If you care about no doubt, you can, you know, hope for a Gwen.

Stefani's like you know solo record or whatever I mean no one no one is clamoring for no doubt to come back in this context it makes no sense I mean I who's gonna show up for that who's gonna show up for blur to here like the like the people you know the people were gonna be coming up for ice spice and Tyler the creator and like oh my god Grimes I cannot wait that's that's one of the most excited about like because what the hell are they gonna do like Because they haven't put out an album in four years. And they've more or less existed the past couple of years. It's like on the same sort of level as Azealia Banks, like more of a poster than a musician.

But here's the thing that stands out to me about the Coachella Festival or the Coachella headliners. Now, I remember in 2016, I'd gone to Coachella like every year from 2008, 2015. And when 16 came through, I'm like, damn, man, this is like different generations. I'm kind of done here. Like, imagine if you're, like, a music writer who began in 2011 and all the, like, Tyler the creator, Lana Del Rey are headliners. I mean, like, no, like, with all due respect, like, you could tell, this, like, if you told me, like, this was, like, Pitchfork Festival headliners, I'm like, yeah, that's, you know,

that's a good get for them, but not out of the question. Like, I do wonder if they do have, like, headliner, you know, capacity. I'm sure they do, but it still seems like, man, these don't seem like major gets. Yeah, I mean, and again, this might be generationally influenced. I mean, there might be a generation where that makes sense. I mean, Lennedore to me does seem like a headliner at a Coachella. Tell the creator, I guess I would put him to doja cat, I'm like a little. I think they got the most juice as a pop artist right now out of the three.

Yeah, I just wonder, you know, again, with these festivals, and I want to, I want to pivot in a second to, like, a broader conversation about these festivals, because there is something, I don't know, it's not something new going on. I think it's like a continuation of a trend where it seems really obvious at this point, that this is where we're going, that these are just based on streaming algorithms,

like the booking of these festivals, because there used to be this idea that festivals have their, like, specific identity. and it felt like there were actual human curators behind picking the axe on the bill and that, you know, this festival had a certain kind of sensibility versus maybe another kind of festival. And certainly there's lots of music festivals out there, particularly the smaller ones, where I think you can still find that. But these, like, gargantuan ones, like the main ones, just seem increasingly interchangeable.

Did you look at the Bonarue festival line? up like that is bananas because you know Bonaroo back in the day was the jam band right festival or if not explicitly jam band it would be jamming music crunchy I'd say crunchy crunchy crunchy and but you would also get like Radiohead did one of their most famous shows at Bonarro oh yeah and it was like um you know like bands that are known for live performance you know as opposed to just being a successful pop act like Doja Cat, for instance, there's no question that she's a successful pop at, but sometimes successful pop acts, it doesn't translate to being a great live act or even like a live act that a lot of people want to see. You know, there's lots of people that stream well, but they don't have like a live following.

And like Bonaroo was like the live following type festival. And you look at it now and like the poster looks like every other poster that you see. and the lineup is like all over the place. You've got, okay, as headliners, you have Post Malone, the red hot chili peppers, and Fred again. Fred again. Do you know who Fred again is? I do know.

So when you say that like it doesn't focus on the live act, I think about like how people say that Odessa, which is a like will be on every festival headliner for like a head, like top line for like the next 10 years. Apparently they got a really awesome live show. Fred again is a DJ or like a producer. Sort of like if I think it's to let's say what Creed is to Pearl Jam. Fred again is to Jamie XX. I don't think that's like a perfect formulation, but it's sort of that style of music but just blown up to a much, much, much, much, much, much more pop.

sensibility. I've listened to Fred against stuff. It is in the realm of things I could or should like, but I find it a little bit like tasteful and boring. But no, that guy's got juice. Yeah. And I'm looking, so he's the headliner on Sunday, June 16th. When you get to the second line, you have Megan D. Stalian, Jason Isbell, two friends. I don't know who that is. I assume that's like another electronic act. And then Carly Ray Jepson. It's like you're just pulling random people and throwing them together. Like, under the chili peppers, you have caged the elephant, which, okay, you know, local act, I guess. Cigarettes after sex, Diplo and John Battiste. Okay. Yeah, it just, there's no coherence at all to this.

It just feels like we're just pulling stuff that an algorithm is spitting out and throwing it on a bill. Like is, I mean, look, people listen to different kinds of music, so I don't want to say that, oh, like, if you like Jason Nisbel, you're not going to care about Megan D. Stalian. I'm sure there's people out there that like both of those artists, but I just feel like, you know, I was looking at the governor's ball. Oh, man, that one's grand. Line up to. And that poster looks exactly like the Bonnaroo poster, by the way. It's like the same kind of font. I think it's the same color scheme.

It just looks like there's some festival. poster maker that everyone's going to. It's like the kinkos of online poster makers, and they're using the same template for all these. But I just feel like the lineups are increasingly random and chaotic seeming. And I don't know what the logic here is other than we're trying to draw on lots of different kinds of people, and we know that when they get here, they're going to spend a significant amount of time

just talking to their friends and not really even caring who's on stage. So it's just about getting people in the door. It's about like if there's one person on the bill that can appeal to somebody, you're just going to broaden your reach and you're going to guarantee a sellout. I mean, is that, am I off base here?

Because these festival lineups don't make sense to me otherwise. I think they make sense to me in the sense that like it just reflects the kind of streaming or like kind of randomness of modern fandom. And also like one thing that does stand out to me is how, you know, for years there was every single year there would be some article about how Coachella has, you know, diverted itself away from its rock origins to like pop. And now I start to see on these festivals, these like, you know, festivals that started out

as rock festivals putting in artists that even like the pop-tomist critics, kind of drag on like Bebe Rexa and Dominic Fike and, you know, Renee rap. I like names that I'm familiar with just if I'm seeing them. I don't know their music, but I do

think that like it's not random to me. It's just like this is the state of festivals and just kind of it reflects where we're at currently. Do I like it? Not really. But again, this stuff's not for me. I do wonder not so much about like

the top, top of the heap festivals like Coachella or Bonaroo, but like hang out, like the hangout fest, the one that takes place in Alabama, like where you get, hey, we got the killers, we got Odessa, we got post Malone. Those to me just seem a little bit sad because it's like when a couple that's, hey, what do you want to do for dinner? And they just decide to get Chinese for like the five billionth time. It's like, I, like, are you excited to say, hey, we got the killers this year. We got Odessa.

Maybe I just need to see Odessa. Maybe that needs to be like an Indycast road trip where we actually see pretty lights or Fisher or like Fred again or these artists where, you know, as 40-something indie listeners, we don't quite understand the appeal. Yeah, I'm going to take a pass on that road trip, I have to say. Being in a car for a long time and then at the end of it is seeing, yeah, some shitty festival seems really depressing. Yeah, I mean, the killers, they're a headliner at Governor's Ball. And it seems like they have like the red hot chili pepper slot at Bonarue. Like do you need, I guess, one grizzled rock band, you know. Coachella used to do that too, but they stop.

Well, they have blur this year. And no doubt. I mean, that's what those bands are at that place. And then you mentioned Hangout Fest. Yeah, this is like another just crazy top line of the poster. You've got Zach Bryan, big country star, Lana Del Rey, of course. Odessa, of course. And then you get the chain smokers.

Sure. The next slide. They were available. And then Cage the Elephant again. Dominic Fike, Renee Rapp, Jesse Murph, and then it just descends from there. Caged the Elephant, of course, this revives one of my favorite indie caspits of all time where we try to figure out if it's about caging an elephant or if the elephant is named Cage. And I feel like every time this comes up, we figure out the answer, but then I instantly

forget it. So like this bit, it never grows old for me. Just imagining, like, do you know what it is? Is it about caging an elephant or is the elephant named cage? I wish we had this conversation when I lived in Kentucky because there would be so many people who went to Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green where they were from and they would have these like, oh, we saw Caged the elephant at this bar or what have you. Like, you know, when I went to UVA, how people would talk about Dave Matthews band. Maybe I'll just get in touch with the people I went to, did my dietetic internship with in Kentucky. I'm going to find this out.

Also, we should probably, like, do, we got to do a yay or nay or cage the elephant because like we got to, like, actually listen to this, you know? I feel like they were invented to open up for the black keys on tour, you know. Yeah. I feel like that was their lane. We're going to be the opening act for the black keys when they play arenas. And I guess now it's... They might be as big if not bigger.

Well, yeah. I mean, now they're like, we're going to be on the second line of the poster. We're going to be the one rock band between like an electronic act and like a, you know, pop star on Spotify that has way more streams than you would ever guess. And then you have KG elephant there. Like that's their role. Yeah, the black keys, like the band that was contrasted with Jack White in your band, your favorite band is killing me, not to be confused with the band that Jack White beat up.

Yes, exactly. which is the Von Bondies, a name I would never, ever forget. All right, so we finally get to the conversation I've been dreading for the past half hour. We're going to talk about Saviors. This is the new album by Green Day. It's out today. It's their 14th studio record. It's the first studio record by Green Day that I can remember listening to in a while.

We were talking before we started recording, and I was very impressed because you actually remember the name of the last Green Day record, which was called... Father of all motherfuckers? Yes. I don't want to like confirm that, but that sounds right, right? Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, I think, and I think, you know, for when they sold it at Walmart or whatever,

it was called Father of All ellipsies. And my memory of that is that it came out right before the pandemic. And there were all these billboards that they were put. up to advertise the record and it was like no Swedish DJs no dancing girls just rock or something like that

do you remember that campaign I absolutely do that's about the only thing I remember about it like I don't I have forgotten the fact that it was like a 26 minute long album you're right it came out February 2020 yeah and you know of course we had to

clown the no sweetest DJs but you know we're going to talk about about like how that might seem like silly to people like us, but I do think that was some pretty good messaging to solidify the type of person who'd be interested in a Green Day album in the 2020s. But yeah, I mean, you could, you could have told me that they'd put out like three albums since then or that that time where they made like, what was it, Uno Dos Trace, where they made like three albums. Right.

Was that the one before, were those the ones before that one? So that came out in like 2012 Revolution Radio. I'm like straight up looking at Wikipedia. Like I can, I'm not going to front like I actually know this shit. Also, Woodstock 1994. They released an album of that in 2019. Mm, okay. Yeah.

Did you know? I was, I didn't know that. You know, I was starting to think that maybe Green Day had gone soft. And then they put out a record called Father of All Motherfuckers. And I was like, oh. Jokes on me. man, these guys are still as hard as ever. I DM'd you while I was listening to this new Green Day album.

And look, okay, we're going to have a broader conversation about Green Day in a minute. I don't mean to just clown on Green Day. There are songs that there's that I like. And there's, like Billy Joe Armstrong, I think is a good songwriter. They have some definite highlights in their past. But I DMD you listening to this record. And I was just like, this album sucks. I'm sorry.

This album just flat out sucks. I was so embarrassed listening to it. Oh, God. Like that first song where he's like, The American Dreamers Killimé me. Yeah, it's like a bad version of that Menzinger song, America, you're freaking me out, which if you're like making shitty Menzinger songs, man.

Or like, do you want to be my girlfriend? Like that song, which sounds like bottom shelf weaser. I mean, there's just so many songs on this record that I think exhibit the worst side of Green Day, which is the overblown, really just desperate to get on the radio side, combined with this like misplaced sense of like political self-righteousness

that I have never felt was Green Day in their best mode. Like after American Idiot, they got miscast, I think, as a political band. After, you know, the first, you know, 10 years, of them being a famous rock band, they were known as like this goofy punk band, like that wrote fun, catchy radio songs. And now all of a sudden, with American Idiot, they were, they were like the punk rock U2, like they were going to be, you know, making serious political statements. And like with this new record, you know, the messaging on it is, well, it's coming 20 years

after American Idiot and 30 years after Duky. So it's like a combination of those records or something. And I've seen the word satire used to describe this record and to connect it to American Idiot. Like the Rolling Stone Review used the word satire. I think Armstrong himself has used the word satire. And I feel like I'm losing my mind when I see this because satire involves irony. You know, you need somebody, like for satire to work, what you're doing basically is you are saying something that you don't really believe for comedic effect in order to make fun of some institution and in some way maybe expose the truth about that institution. So Stephen Colbert, acting like a Bill O'Reilly like talk show host, that is satire.

Or Stanley Kubrick making a film about maniacs and creeps in the government who started a nuclear war. Like that's satire. Billy Joe Armstrong saying, I don't want to be an American idiot. Like that is not satire. There's no irony there. you know he's saying how he feels like and green day songs have never been funny at least not on purpose you know so that whole thing i think ascribes a level of intelligence that it just seems totally misplaced to me with green day but anyway that's my little rant about that but um i don't know

do you like this record am i like off base i because i think it flat out sucks i think it's getting good reviews i've seen people call it like their best album in you know something since American Idiot. And I don't get it. I mean, the production by Rob Covello, as you said, he's a longtime collaborator with Green Day. It's so bland and over the top, and it's mixed by Chris Lord Elge,

who's like a notorious mixer who just makes everything, just takes all the subtlety out of every song that he mixes and just makes it sound like a big, shiny wall of sound. that bludgeones you repeatedly. I mean, I don't know. I just think this record is like way overblown and kind of ugly,

and I really don't like listening to it. Yeah, I mean, well, I don't think it's particularly good. You know, I think we just kind of have to, like, you know, set the stakes for this. I cannot overstate the importance Green Day had for people of our age growing up. Like, I, you know, of course I own Duky, like 30 million other people. I never really cared about the band that much. Like, it was never an important record to me. But, yeah, I played when I come around and brain stew with the guy I knew in middle school at a drum set.

But here's, I don't know if this is like a shocking revelation, but I've never actually listened to American Idiot. You know, like you mentioned that it was like satire or what have you, but it reminds. Well, it's not, I'm saying it's not satire. Or a scene as it, you know. Or an important political statement. I mean, like, we could talk a lot. lot about just how weak the, you know, political music was in 2004. But, you know, in retrospect, like the reason I never bothered to listen to American Idiot, despite all the critical acclaim or

it's being seen as like, you know, the new London calling or whatever is that, in retrospect, it strikes me as like what a lot of quote resistance pop was during, like, let's say, 2017 or 18. It's like, yeah, I get the point. Like, I don't find this to be particularly energizing as a political statement. And plus I hear the singles everywhere. Like, I don't need to, you know, follow through with this. But, and of course, if I've never listened to American Idiot, you can be sure, you can be sure I've never given Revolution Radio or 20th century breakdown, a solid listen. And yeah, I listened to this album. It sounded extremely overproduced. Like, I wouldn't necessarily, I wouldn't be able to tell, like, right off the bat this was a Green Day album, I would have assumed this is like one of those, like, British post-Arctic Monkeys rock acts that gets massively popular in the UK.

But Green Day, I'm not mad about this album because I feel like Green Day exists in this, I guess I would describe it as like a post-quality sphere of like Metallica, chili peppers, Weezer, just these albums that come. out and there it's instantly memory hold aside from like the 24 hour fitness. I go to any of my work that shows videos from like latter day Kings of Leon, Blackberry Smoke and Tantric albums. Also, I saw a 2023 candlebox album at that gym. They put out now in last year. Like, I'm not making this shit up. Also, I saw the video for like tip of my tongue at least a dozen times in the past year. But I think the question I have about Green Day is like, did they still have like, not fans. I know they have fans, but like people who really vouch for them because teens wear Metallica T-shirts all the time nowadays. And, you know, Blink 182 is reestablished the relevance. The

chili peppers always bring out like really good tour headliners. And even like every shitty Weezer album like gets one or two people ranking their records. But like who are the Green Day people? Like do they still got hitters out there? I don't know. I mean, they're playing stadium. So I assume that that's not just like 50-year-olds who bought Duky 30 years ago. I mean, I would imagine that they are a band that if you're 11 or 12 years old and you're just starting to get into like rock music, they seem like a natural, you know, entry point for people because they do have, like the chili peppers, a ton of songs that still get played on the radio all the time. Like I hear Green Day songs in the wild all the time. And I'll say after, you know, being very harsh about Saviors, you know, in a broader sense, I appreciate what Green Day does as a radio band. I have listened to American Idiot.

I've listened to Duky. I've listened to a lot of other Green Day albums. I actually have some affection for the albums they put out between Duky and American Idiot that didn't do as well, like Insomniac and Nimrod. I think there's some good songs on there. I do feel like my experience with Green Day albums is that I usually start to feel a little sick of it by the end of it. I feel like the perfect amount of Green Day is about three or four minutes on the radio. And if it's when I come around or basket case or brain stew or, you know. Redundance my personal favor, but I don't think that ever gets played on the radio.

Or even like Geeks Think Breath. I'll throw that song up there from Insomniac. That's a good song. But, you know, my take on Billy Joe Armstrong is that he's a guy who sings in a fake British accent. He plays in a fake punk band, and he engages in fake political commentary to conceal the fact that he's just a guy that writes really good, catchy rock songs. Like, I think his strength as a songwriter is his melodic sense. He's really good with choruses. He's good with melody.

He writes songs that are very durable on the radio. And that is a talent that I appreciate. but like all those stuff around it tends to turn me off a little bit. And, you know, I feel like I'm among the only rock critics that actually is interested in late career albums by legacy bands. If only because I'm fascinated by the arc of people's careers. And I'm very interested in like what a band does when they're in their 50s. And they don't really need to make records anymore, but like they want to make records. But like there's not really an audience necessarily for that music.

I just think that's an interesting. dynamic and I like to see how bands react to that. So like in that sense I'm like I'm interested in this record but I have to say that like my least favorite kind of legacy rock record is the

we're trying to prove that we're still hard type record. And like that's what every Metallica album is now. You know I feel like Green Day they really try to underline the fact that like we're still punk. We're still you know

calling up. the man and all that stuff and I'm like this is our only hope to defeat the Donald Trump Republican I know you're making a Trump record like really come on man it's like I just don't think that's his strength I think his strength is writing really catchy songs I kind of wish he would just make just just make a pure power pop record just lean into that part of what you do that would be more interesting to me than like oh okay the American dream is killing me okay great. That song is not going to surprise me

coming from this band. Right. I mean, it's, I do think it's, it's worthwhile, like, you know, compare them to the metallic, because every metallic album,

like you say, it's like, oh, we still got it, you know, like, forget about load, forget about reload, forget about S&M. Like, we can still

fuck around and make another ride the lightning. And with Green Day, Green Day is just fascinating to me because, like, they're seen as this, they lumped in with this post this idea of like post-Nirvana oh the dream of the 90s is dead no one gives a shit about

creed anymore it's all pop punk and like bush and sponge this is our second sponge reference of the episode um whereas like very few bands cared more about creed than green day from the jump um and that's where insomniac comes in it's like that was their reaction to making like a 30 like times platinum album and um you know you see like it's in like it's interesting to see what happened after Duky because they started to become like this kind of modest Brit pop influence band on Warning and, you know, Nimrod and those were pretty good albums. Like you, they were going to be like this band that just made really good radio singles and then American Idiot happened. And then the next 20 years like Green Day had like thought, well, I guess

we kind of have to be the clash in some way. Well, or like the stadium rock. version of the clash. You know, not even like, we make combat rock every single album. Yeah, exactly. And not even, because combat rock is actually

like a pretty, like, varied album. There's like some weird songs in there, but it's like, if the only clash song you ever heard was should I stay or should I go, like that is like what Green Day is. Like that is like,

if you're only sort of conception of like what the clash can be, just like the most straightforward rock radio version of, that and there has been this sort of like gigantism to their music that I don't think always serves it well even though I do like the singles from American Idiot but I but again like you know the first Green Day song that really hit with people is a song about like masturbation right you know like that was their lane like they were flinging burgers at people and they were throwing mud at

what's that 94 and you know they they were in that lane before blink one 82 came along and kind of took it from them. But yeah, they were just like the goofy, obnoxious punk band that wrote really catchy songs that you heard a million times. And then it's like, oh, I wonder what Billy Joel Armstrong thinks about George W. Bush. That became something that the culture cared about. And I don't know.

I just feel like that is not what I personally want from that band or think that they do particularly well. Yeah, but when you look back at 2004, there was just so little in terms, like, in the past, you know, in the past like eight some odd years, we're just so used to like every piece of pop or rock music, having some sort of political valence. It's like hard to remember back in 2004 just how fucking weak that all felt. And so like a American idiot might actually be seen as like a what's going on for its times. Uh, strange times. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that there are people that were, you know, 12 years old. When that album came out and they thought and it meant something to them. I mean, I, I, uh, I, I, uh, I, I, uh, I, I, I, I'm not putting that down. I mean, I think that's a legitimate feeling to have. You know, if you're in middle school, I could definitely see how that hit differently

than it would if, you know, you were my age when that help came out. All right, we now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? Yeah, this should come as no surprise.

I want to talk about the new Glass Beach album, the second Glass Beach album, which is actually not called the second Glass Beach album, like the first class beach album. It's actually called Plastic Death. I have to stop myself from calling it Plastic Beach. And they're aware of that too.

But this album is out today. It is, I would describe it as it's like radiohead circuit in rainbows, but slightly more Prague and emo at the same time. Yeah, it's the review that Christaville do it over at Stereo Gum brings up. and I love this. Dismemberment plan circuit change, but also mid-aughts

blog rock. So obviously I love it. And I also have a very, very lengthy interview up this week at Uprocks. It's fascinating because, like, you know, they took five years to make this record and more or less sort of disappeared

in that time since. And I think it is a testament to, you know, what happens when you give certain bands five years to make a new record. because they all have like just super awesome chops. It's very impressive technically, just full of imagination. And yeah, I was worried that like COVID and any number of things would stop them from making another record.

And I'm interested to see how the audience for this record has evolved since then because it was a really out of nowhere success in 2019. And God, so much has changed since then. But yeah, this is one of my favorite records of the year. I would not be totally shocked if it was. end-to-end now in the year for me. But yeah, if we get five records better than this one this year, 2024 has been very kind to us.

So I am going to plug a column I wrote this week. It's about Radiohead. I wrote a list column where I not only ranked Radiohead albums, I incorporated all of the solo albums and side projects. And this is inspired, of course, because there's a new smile record that comes out next week called Wall of Eyes. I assume we'll talk about it on the show next week, but I write about that album in the column.

But, you know, there was a thing this month on social media where people were debating about, you know, what is the best Radiohead album? Some people said it in rainbows. There's other people who say Kid A. Okay, Computer, of course, is out there in the conversation. But, you know, Radiohead, it's a fun band to talk about this with because they have multiple great albums that, in a way, cater to different constituencies

because they are the rare band that has put out career-defining work in multiple decades, and they appeal to different generations. So that was fun to get into. But again, I had to take it to the next level, not only talking about it in rainbows and kid A, but I'm getting into like the there will be blood score. And Tom York, tomorrow's modern boxes and Adams for Peace, and how does that compare to the King of Limbs and a moon-shaped pool? So that column went up on Thursday.

I'm sorry, it went up on Wednesday. It's been up all week. That was a lot of fun to write. So please check that out on uprocks.com. And then we will, I'm sure, talk about the smile on the show next week. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box. Thanks.