Indiecast - The Future Of Bandcamp + The Rolling Stones

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

The Fall Albums Fantasy Draft is heating up between Steven and Ian. After Steven jumped out to an early lead, Ian has been slowly creeping up and it's looking like he might seriously contend for the top spot (7:21). After spending way too long hashing that out, the guys move on to a conversation about the recent layoffs at Bandcamp and what this might mean for the future of the beloved online indie retailer. After so many major indie-rock stars have sprung from that platform in the past decade, are we on the verge of a post-Bandcamp future? (16:10)From there Steven and Ian talk about Rolling Stone's recent list of the best guitarists of all time, and what "best guitarists" lists say about the publications that produce them. Also: Are we now in a post-guitar hero society, where music fans no longer worship displays of instrumental virtuosity? (30:38) After that, they talk about the new Rolling Stones album, Hackney Diamonds, and Steven presents a theory about why the Stones haven't translated to younger generations like other classic-rock acts such as Steely Dan and Fleetwood Mac (46:33).In Recommendation Corner (58:56), Ian raves about the new Jane Remover album while Steven goes in for rowdy country-rock band Dusk.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 160 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast on this show. We talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the future of band camp, the best guitarist of all timeless, and the Rolling Stones. What a combination.

My name is Stephen Heighton, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He cried when M83 played Midnight City. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? Okay, so to clarify, I did sort of kind of cry when M83 played Running the Flowers at the show I saw them at last Wednesday. I actually left before they played Midnight City because that was going to be the encore.

And to start off, I feel like I owe an apology to all of our younger, you know, read like 28-year-old listeners. Because we always talk about like how young people don't know how to act at concerts these days, particularly after the pandemic. but I saw M83 at this new venue in Del Mar, which it's on something called Jimmy Durante Boulevard to give you a sense of like what Del Mar is like. But yeah, I mean, it's a perfect venue to see M83 because as I mentioned to a very small number of people, like North County San Diego is just now catching up to Los Angeles hipster culture in 2012. I think local natives and fits in the tantrums were playing a week before. But from seeing M83, I can tell you that like 40-somethings don't know how to act at shows either. Incredible show.

But when people at this age at 40 and above, for the most part, talk about, like, I love going to concerts. Like, they don't mean seeing, you know, a cool new band at the 200-cap venue in town. What they mean is that, like, they're going to gather up all their friends and get super wasted on a Wednesday night and, like, talk through the entire show. that was the M83 crowd. Like they put M83 put on a fucking amazing show by the way. I think fantasy is going to be both like a memory hold and underrated album by the end of the year.

But and also like there were some things going on with the Wilco show that I went to. Like people don't know when to stand up or sit down. Like they'll sit, they'll stand up for like the really depressing Ghost's Born songs they played because they know them but like not get up for the energetic cousin songs.

Yeah. I think we've established this is a global problem. Yeah, I saw Bob Dylan twice last week, and I had very good seats. I was like fourth row center. It was unbelievable. I was very close to Bob. And the first night I went, there was an extremely drunk wine mom behind me who was cackling the entire show.

And, you know, Bob Dylan, he's playing the entirety of his latest record, Rough and Ready Ways, brilliant record, not really a laugh fest type record. Songs of loss, songs of mortality, you know, reflecting on the passage of time. You know, this is not a comedy show, but like this very drunken wine mom just laughs the entire time. And it was distracting, you know, and it's a similar thing that what you're speaking to here, it's not just the young people. This woman, And, you know, she was like one of those, she was clearly, her and her husband and they were clearly wealthy. She was like one of those, like, well-kept, 55-year-old women going to the tanning salon a lot, a little bit like leathery, you know, that kind of look, that kind of middle-aged woman look. And just drunk off her ass on white claws, just drinking white claws, just slamming white claws.

And she's having a great time. And, you know, I did the thing, like, where you do, like, the half turn. Yes. I did about six half turns. You know, and you feel like, you know, if someone half turns me, I just need one half turn. And I'm like, oh, shit, whatever I'm doing, stop doing it. I'm disrupting people around me. I did, like, six half turns, no response at all.

And look, God bless her, she's having a great time. I'm sure that's, like, one of her best concerts ever, even though she didn't hear any of the music. But yeah, very irritating. I mean, we are like in boom times right now for live music. I was listening to one of my podcasts, The Town. I think I've talked about that on this show. I'm a big band of the town. Matthew Bellany, shout out.

Lucas Shaw, frequent guest. He had a recent episode about how we're basically, like, in 2023, the grosses for tours, it's like higher than like pre-pandemic. levels. And a lot of that has to do with Taylor Swift and Beyonce both being on the road. I think that those two tours alone account for like a quarter of the money that's being made right now. But still, a lot of people are going out to shows. And I think you're right. You've got a crowd going out to shows now who think of a concert as being like a nightclub. You know, like you're in a nightclub. There's music on the background, but that doesn't mean that you have to curb your

conversation. You're there in the environment, not to see a show, but to be out in public. And for those of us who actually want to listen to the band or the artist on stage, it's very annoying. Yeah, I will say, though, that your, you know, wine mom and, you know, craft beer dad experience at a Bob Dylan show in Milwaukee cannot top me seeing Wilco and Santa Barbara. Well, yeah. That is just an incredible, that was just an incredible tableau of like the wealthy and highly medicated. Oh, yeah. I mean, look, I think your crowd is more interesting.

I would rather see Bob Dylan in lovely Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which by the way, gorgeous the first night and terrible the next night. Like just raining the next night. But still, I loved being in Milwaukee. Milwaukee, one of my favorite cities. I lived there for about eight years. Haven't been there as much lately. Just a great city. You know, you got to visit there out there.

I'm getting some chamber of commerce money from Milwaukee here. I'm trying to boost their tourism. Yeah, I had a good-ass time there this summer. That's right. You were in Milwaukee. I was in Milwaukee. Apparently it was striving to be the Portland of the Midwest before the pandemic hit. Yeah, I think, I'm hoping that they get beyond that.

Their word's not mine, by the way. Right. I mean, there's like a lot of these rust belt cities that are very self-conscious about, you know, wanting to keep up with like the trendy cities in America. And it's like, you don't have to be Portland. You're Milwaukee. There's like a lot of great Milwaukee things that Portland doesn't have. Just be Milwaukee, man. The best corner tavern city in America.

Just great bar culture there. If you want to go to bars, if you're a functional alcoholic. Or non-functional. Or non-functional. Or non-functional. It's the place to live, but, you know, great vibe, really nice people. Yeah, great city. I love being there.

Let's do a fantasy update here. Yes. Because things are heating up. You know, we've talked on this show about how your number one pick, Sufion Stevens, was maybe a little underperforming. His Metacritic score right now is 87. I think we both agree that that's not really reflective of the love of this album. I think if there was like a recount, you know, people,

could re-review or rescore that album it would be in the 90s I I feel like that's gonna be a lock top five album yeah on a lot of lists but anyway it's an 87 we got we got to we got to go with the score that we have you had Lorraine mm-hmm which is another really good record I like that record right record I don't know if you've like that's like such an interesting record again like combining like a lot of different things. Sonically, just really interesting, really cool things going on in that record. I killed your dog, is the name of that album, by the way. And then, yeah, Jamila Woods came out last week, 84 for Jamila Woods. Strong. You know, you wanted the mid-80s, I think, for that, and you got it.

I was expecting bigger things. It's like, it's like the fantasy version of, like, the running back who racks up, like, 112 yards and, like, doesn't get the touchdown because they give the fullback, the one-yard dive. Well, like, what were you realistically hoping for? 86, 87? I don't know. Okay, so not that far. Yeah, not that far. Minor disappointment.

But I think we're shaping up for something here where every point's going to matter. Yes. Okay, so I'm at 346, and just to quickly review, Olivia Rodriguez, my number one pick, 91, Mitzky, my second pick 90. So I've got 290 plus on my team. You don't have any 90 pluses yet.

I think that's going to change. soon. Arm and Hammer, 86, slow pulp, 79. I'm happy with that one. It was 77. I checked last night. That's a 77 now. It went down to 77? Yeah, that's an anchor. Oh, man. You know, I was skeptical of that. So I lost some ground there. I'm at 344 now. Damn. I was skeptical of that pick when you first made it. Like, you've been dogged me for that. Yeah, it's like picking,

since the drop. Sequan Bark, like the person in the fantasy league who hasn't paid attention to football in like five years and picks like Sequan Barkley and never four. Don't compare me to that guy.

Don't compare me to that guy. I went with my heart there. Maybe that wasn't the way to go. I went with a record that I like a lot personally. It's a great record. And I thought people would be stepping up.

I feel like that's a low score for them too. I feel like that's not really representative of the response to that album. 100%. That's the score. score I'm stuck with, so I lost some ground there. So you have Sanfa this week.

Early returns look good on that one. So you're hoping, you gotta, I mean, you don't have a 90 yet. So you're gonna want a high 80s for Sampha. Do you think that's gonna deliver? I'm looking at Album of the Year because it's not on Metacritic yet.

And the first couple scores, like they all like, we're looking at some 80s, some 90s, so it's possible. It's very possible. I'm at the I think the floor here is like an 84 or something if I had the guess. Or I could be very wrong. I don't know. Yeah, I would be shocked if it was like below mid-80s.

Yes. I think you got at least the mid-80s. You could use a high 80s for Sanfa. Let's just assume Sanfa gets like an 87 or so. Yeah. I haven't added up your scores. Have you edited up your scores? Yeah, I think I need it.

If I get an 87 from Sanfa, that means we're tied going into Taylor Swift versus Marty Stern. Okay. Which is like a true David and Goliath situation here. Taylor Swift was not the number 188 best guitarist of all time, according to Rolling Stone. So let's not doubt Marnie here. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think of a good sports analogy for this. What would this be? I'm going to speak as a University of Virginia graduate.

This is like Virginia number one seat against UMBC or Shamanad. So that's where I'm coming into play. It's tough because I think Taylor Swift, this is the 1989 Taylor's version. And, you know, we're at like a crazy moment right now. Like we're even by the standards of Taylor Swift media coverage, you got a lot of writers here who need to get a room. with Taylor Swift. It's getting a little like gross with the

PDA with Taylor Swift. It's very over the top because of the Ares Tour. You know, she's definitely on a high. I think you are a lock for a 90 plus with Taylor Swift. Fingers crossed. And I think it could be like a

95 or so. Is it going to be doing like Tim reissue numbers? Well yeah, that's a 99 on Medicare. That's the top rated album right now on Metacritic. And Marnie Stern, again, my best hope is that, and we've talked about this, I'm really counting on you 45-year-old freelance music writer person out there to be reviewing this album, to be giving it a good review.

And I only need, I actually want fewer reviews. Like, I think the fewer reviews, the better for me. It's kind of like the slow pulp situation, like where the more reviews that accumulate, that score continues to go down. I need like four or five people. I know the exact writers who need to do this. Let's get like David Raposat of retirement. Let's get Rob Mitchum out there. We need the 2006 pitchfork heads.

I mean, I just feel like realistically, though, my best hope is like an 85. I don't think I can, you know, think of going in the 90s. So I really need Samfa to underperform, and I need Marnie to overperform to have a shot here. I'm worried, though. The Marnie Stern-Taylor-Swip matchup is terrible for me. Yeah. That's terrible. This is a terrible position to be in.

And I just got off to that early lead. I was feeling really confident. I got the two 90s. I mean, but is Slow Pulp? Is that when they write the column, when they write the sports column about my team, is Slow Pulp going to take the, are they going to take the blame for this? I don't want them to. It's not their fault.

I think critics are in the wrong there. I think it should be a higher score. It's a great record. I don't know, though. This is not falling well for me, though, right now. Yeah, I think the next time we do this. And by the way, we should do this like every quarter. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. This is fun. I think we need to rule out, like, certain types of albums. Like I mentioned this in the draft. I feel like picking Taylor Swift was like kind of a cheat code. So I think going forward, no reissues, no live albums, none of that stuff. Well, that's not a reissue, though.

That's technically a new album. I don't think you can say, yeah, I think no reissues, but I think the Taylor Swift thing, it's just the unique wrinkle of this season. And, you know, my team. top people aren't going to be that far behind her, I don't think. It's just like the ones in the middle. Like, that's what matters. It's not even, like, there's the no-brainer first round pick, but it's like the third and fourth pick that really matter. Maybe Taylor Swift is going to say something about, like, you know, Israel and Palestine and that's like your best code.

Oh my God. She just goes on Instagram with like... She can do you know, like, the Amy Schumer bit. Yeah, like, she's got like the black screen with like the white text and, She's like, I've been ruminating on Israel, Palestine, and then she just puts her foot in her mouth. Yeah. By the way, if there are any Taylor Swift fans listening, please do not take this as like us hoping for this. Like, please don't get at. Please don't come at us. No, this is purely in terms of the competition here. You know, I am, I, that's what I need.

I need an Instagram post gone wrong. That's going to be the thing that saves me. so I'm hoping for that. Hopefully that will happen. Let's talk about Bandcamp. Not the American Pie joke thing. I'm talking about the website Bandcamp, which has been going through some weird times, some bad times lately. I'm just going to read from a pitchfork story about that this week. Just to give a little background, I guess, before I read this excerpt.

Bandcamp, of course, is this site where independent musicians can go and they can post their music and sell their music to people. And it's been this great thing in independent music for like the past decade. There's so many artists that have essentially broken through because of band camp. Carseat Headrest is a band that comes immediately to mind.

There's many others. Alex G. Mitzki. Alex G, of course. Mitzki. Many of the biggest stars in indie music right now, indie rock, got their start. because they were popular on Bandcamp.

It's really hard to imagine the current ecosystem of Indy Rock without Bandcamp. But now we're in a situation because of some corporate shenanigans going on. They were bought by Epic Games, the company that does Fortnite, a while back, and now they just sold BandCamp to this hilariously named music licensing service called SongTrader, where for whatever reason there's no E between the D and the R. It's song trader. Edgy. D.R.

Which just seems like, it seems like a 30 rock joke. Like a 30 rock did an episode about an indie music website being bought by like the worst company that you would want to own this nice little corner of the internet. Like that would be the joke that they would make. Yeah, it strikes me as like a Silicon Valley type joke. It's like removing vowels. in that realm is like back in, I guess, the 90s where you would change an S to a Z or like a C to a K. Vows are corny. No vows. That's edgy. So, anyway, they get bought by this company's SongTrader.

And Song Trader, they come out initially and they say, you know, it's going to be status quo. We're not playing to make any big changes. And, of course, when a company says that, you know that you need to. to be scared because the opposite's going to happen and the opposite happened this week. And again, this is from the pitchfork article. Roughly half of Bancaps staff got the axe. A departing software engineer tells me the writer, I think that was Phil Sherburn, that cuts were spread out fairly evenly across all departments except for customer support

and editorial, which were hit harder. This former employee estimates that only three support specialists were retained. A current employee tells me that the editorial department, and kept three editors and a designer. And that Bandcamp daily, the site's robust music publication will continue on. Bandcamp's former executives, meanwhile, and this is a quote, all vanished on September 28th, and no one has heard from them since. The leftovers, man.

That's fucked up. Yeah, it's very foreboding. Now, it should be noted that Bandcamp, according to the company, has been profitable since 2012. So you would think, well, why do you have to lay off all of these? people is a profitable company. And of course, we're seeing the thing that we see over and over again where you have this nice little corner of the internet and it gets bought by an evil company. And you can't just have a situation where you're profitable. There has to be constant growth. You have to show that we're growing, we're dynamic, we're constantly changing. And what that

inevitably does is it guts the company and takes everything that people liked about it away. I don't want to talk too much about the music writing aspect of this. The people who lost their jobs, I feel for you, I'm sorry, I've been there, I know what that's like. I'll just say that there's always something better around the corner. You know, like when I lost my job, it's scary because you feel like I'm never going to be able to work again. No one's going to hire me. But there's very capable people that work there. It's a very well-regarded place.

I have all the confidence in the world that the people who lost their job. jobs there are going to land somewhere that's better and you're going to have a bright future. I actually don't think that this is as significant as a music writing change as it is for a music listener change. We don't know what the future of band camp's going to be. The fact that they're cutting customer support staff is alarming to me because that seems important if you are dealing with sales of music and, you know, the thing with BandCamp is that buying digital music is one of the most soulless things to do. Like if you go to Apple music,

it's awful. No one likes to buy music there. BandCamp managed to make buying digital music like feel good and fun. You know, it's like the one place where you want to buy music in the same way that you want to go to a record store and buy records. They managed to do that. The fact that they're cutting back on their staff makes me worried that it's not going to be as well-run of an organization anymore and that there's going to be more friction now

in terms of the whole sort of experience of being on band camp. You know, this is like the one place, really? I mean, not the one place, but it's one of the places online where people still actually buy music as opposed to just streaming it. and there's a culture there where people want to buy music because they feel like they're supporting artists.

There's this very sort of recognized back and forth that goes on where, you know, you feel good about it. You know it's not just going to some faceless corporation. You feel like this is where artists are going to get the most money from the music that they sell on the site. and I worry that if that is somehow diminished or in whatever way goes away, that there won't be something that comes along to replace it. Because we're already in a culture now where people are conditioned to not own music. You know, we are encouraging people to look at music as something that they only passively absorb from Spotify. And Bandcamp is one of the only things that pushes up against that.

So that's my main worry here, and I think that's the headline here, is the potential destruction of that one-on-one ecosystem here where you feel like listeners are actually connected to the artists that they're listening to. I don't think that you get that from any other platform. It's what exists on Bandcamp. I think it's their brand. And I just wonder if that's in danger now. Yeah, I do think it's in danger because, like, God, you sent me back all the way to, like, 2007. of like trying to buy an album from iTunes or whatever. It's just like the worst.

I think I bought like Erica Badu Mama gun off that. Otherwise I cannot remember anything else. I think I bought it because I just couldn't find it on like whatever music pirating site was popping in 2006. But yeah, I mean, it sucks for the music writing component because it was like one of the few places where you could write about like weird stuff. But I mean, you're right in that the way people are going to remember. band camp. It's obviously it's cultural imprint is not as big as that as MySpace, but when you say my space music, it gives you an idea of like, you know, what that era was. And when you say band camp music, you know, you think, oh yeah, like Frankie Cosmos, Alex G, you know, car seat headrest,

things of that nature. And yeah, I mean, I do wonder, I mean, maybe there's a different type of, you know, a way to buy music that's in the future. But I think with Band Camp, what people liked about it. It was like a central hub where all artists could, you know, they had band camp Friday. That was very popular, you know, because of the charitable cause. And also it was, it made an event out of buying music, which is a fucking insane thing to be able to do in 2023. And I think now, like, you know, the lesson is something along the lines of like, you know, physical media, own your shit, no website's ever going to really be looking out for you, whether you're talking about writers or musicians,

then, I mean, yeah, it's easy for, I think, people of our age to wrap our heads around owning music in some sort of format, whether it's like hard drive or physical. Because, like, we've done that for a significant period of our life. But I think that to talk to, like, someone who's, like, 18 or 22 years old, it's like when you see the arguments in Southern California where, like, man, it would be so much cooler if we had like real public transportation in the same way that like new york did but that's just not the way our cities were designed and uh you know it's it's sort of the plot of singles if i'm

remember it's like people love their cars um we all know it's better but it's like really hard for people to make that pivot if they're used to something which is far more convenient so i think it's well yeah and especially with digital music oh absolutely young people will go on discogs or they'll go to record store and they'll buy vinyl. And there's clearly been a resurgence of that in the last several years, but like the idea of paying for like invisible music, things that just exists online. I think that is so anathema now to how people engage with this sort of thing. And it is important, though, that people do that because look, not every band is going to be able to press their album on vinyl, you know, or if they do, they might have to wait several months because of the black

at these printing presses. And it's nice if you're someone who is recording in a bedroom and you made this record that you can just throw it up online and that you could maybe even make some money from it because people are going to buy it that way. I really think that Bandcamp is like one of the last bulwarks in the sort of complete memory-holing of buying music online. Because we are really, we are virtually at that place right now. you know because no one is buying mp3s on apple music these days unless you're 85

still i think you can still do that i mean like if you're like 75 years old you're doing that but other than that like no one under the age of 75 is buying music that way because it's a terrible way to buy music it's a it's a soulless experience you um sometimes can't transfer files from like one device to the other it's like a very weird situation and uh Bandcamp managed to make that process fun, which, again, I feel like that is virtually impossible to do. Like, they did the impossible with Bandcamp where you felt like, yeah, I want to buy this download, and it's something I can feel good about. You know, and I'm going to have the music. I don't have to worry about it not existing anymore.

I can download it, and it's going to be mine forever. And I'm also supporting an artist that I love in a very real, tangible way. And speaking of 75-year-olds, I did look, you can buy the new Rolling Stone singles for $1.29. Well, there you go. Beautiful. So, I don't know. I mean, we should say that Ban Camp still exists. Yes.

As of now, it's not like it's gone away and we're writing the obituary here. But I think, again, there is reason to be concerned because the company that owns them now, like so many companies that buy, you know, beloved Pletka. platforms, the current owner doesn't seem to have any affection really for what this place is or understanding of it. Fundamentally misunderstanding the appeal of it. I think about like someone mentioned like when Matt's in on Succession just says like, you know, with the network's just going to turn it into a series of pipes. I mean like Ban Campbell exists, but like the goodwill, you know, like the goodwill behind that company is really what made it what it was. then you're just kind of gutting that right now.

Like, people might still go to Ban Camp, but, like, it just won't be, like, people won't, like, I won't post Band Camp links, you know, on general principle, maybe anymore. I don't know. Well, I mean, I think people should still continue to support Van Camp because there's still a lot of artists on there. You want to, you think of it as supporting the artist and not the company if you're against the company. I mean, I don't think it's a matter of misunderstanding what is good about the site. I think it's a matter of like not caring. Like they just don't care.

And that's what a lot of these vulture type companies operate from that they look at it. You know, like the dude on secession is like just like a box of stuff that they can sell to other people. They could like break it down and just turn it into like a quick cash grab because that's easier to do versus actually sustaining some. and caring about and building it. It's much easier to just like take a sledgehammer to something and be like, oh, like, do you want this spare part? Do you want this spare part? And then it's decimated and they can just move on to something else. I mean, it is a terrible cycle that like we as the audience, we gravitate to these things because they're great.

And we make them valuable because of our attention. And then someone else comes along and destroys it because they can mind. monetize our attention better that way. It's just such a terrible thing that we're seeing over and over again. That's seen everyone's fault. But when the, when the Mattson comes from Indycast, well, I mean, if a Mattson does come with a billion dollars for Indycast, you know, we might be singing a different tune. Yeah, we're taking the money. I'm sorry. I love this podcast, but I also love, you know, independent wealth more. Well, let's talk about something a little less depressing, and that is the recent list of the greatest guitarists of all time that was posted by Rolling Stone last week.

250 guitarists on this list. This is an enormous list here. One of the biggest lists of guitar players of all time, and I want to talk in a minute about the utility of ranking guitar players in this moment in time, because I think it's an interesting, thing because I feel like we're in sort of like a post guitar hero era you know like where

the sort of like fetishizing instrumentalists I feel like that doesn't really happen that much anymore outside of certain circles like if you are reading guitar magazines obviously it happens if you're in the metal world I think it happens there to the jam world obviously but I'm curious to get your take on this list itself I feel like you have more opinions on this than I do. I'll just say,

I didn't read this list too closely. I mostly consume this list from, like, social media posts from people complaining about the list, which, by the way, if you have people complaining about your list,

you've won. So Rolling Stone, hats off to you, you won here. I did scroll ahead to see if they put Jimmy Hendrix at number one, because I'm like,

are they going to do something clever here and put, I don't know, St. Vincent at number one or something. They didn't, do that. They put Jimmy at number one, which is the boring, predictable choice, but it's the right

choice. You got to put Jimmy number one. So I'm glad they didn't overthink that one. I think sometimes I make lists myself, it's a very strong temptation to throw a curveball at number one because you don't want to fall into the same old thing. But don't disrespect Jimmy. Put him at number one. My other big thought was how Eric Clapton has totally fallen off the map on these lists. I feel like these lists were made for Eric Clapton. When I was consuming these lists as a teenager in the 90s, Clapton was always neck-in-neck-neck-with-Jimmy Hendrix. It was Jimmy at number one, Eric at number two. And if it was like a stodgier magazine, Eric Clapton might be number one.

especially like post tears in heaven you know like he had like a resurgence going on so Eric Clapton as hard as it is to conceive of now like he was a pop star for a while in the 90s yeah Jesus you're right completely memory hold the unplugged era

yeah when he had like the Jason Priestley haircut you know like that era and the glasses he was a big deal but I think he was like at number 30 on this list and speaking of St. Vincent like she was ranked one spot higher than Clapton was, which, you know, I think a lot of that has to do with, like,

sort of things outside of music, you know, the fact that he's like an anti-vaxxer and, like, his racist comments from the past have surfaced. But also, I think it's justified musically. I think he's a really boring guitar player. Like, I like him in the 60s after that, very boring. So I think it's justified. But anyway, I think that's interesting. I was mad that Jerry Garcia was still ranked.

below Eric Clapton? No, he was ahead of Eric Clapton. I'm looking at the list right here. Was he? Yeah, he was literally number 34, Jerry Garcia, 35, Eric Clapton. Oh, I thought Clapton was 30. No, Neil Young was 30. And Clark of St. Vincent was 26, like a head of Buddy Guy, but below John Fresonté.

Okay, because someone tweeted at me and said, Eric Clapton at number 30, St. Vincent at number 29. maybe this guy was looking at a different list. Because the guy was like, I can't believe this. Right. Like, he was angry that Clapton was at 30. And I was like, yeah, I agree. That's like way too high for Eric Clapton.

But anyway, I know you're dying to talk about this. Like, what'd you think of the list? I mean, I short-circuited after, like, reading the first five, you know, because, like, if I wanted to go, like, number by number, I would lose my fucking mind. Because number 250, like, the very first inclusion is anti-year-old. any summers from the police who's like, you know, it's a very distinct, very influential style of guitar playing, which like resonates to this day. Totally.

Also, like, I don't give a fuck what else Leslie West has done with his life. Like, if you write the riff from Mississippi Queen, there are not 244 guitars better than you. Also, like, but, you know, and that's just the first five. Also, like, 243, like Aaron and Bryce Desner, it's like, wait, we're including two guitars from the same band, which they do throughout the list with like Radiohead and ACDC, which, yeah, I mean, that's just like, and also they put snail mail at 242, her, H-E-R 233.

I mean, like, this is just getting warmed up, you know? Well, that's the other thing. There were like some indie rock inclusions here that were a little weird to me. Like you had, like, Lucy Dacus was on the list. You had Courtney Barnett on the list. And it's like they're both really good songwriters. I don't really think of them as guitar players. Like I don't really understand the rationale for doing that.

I mean, I think a general criticism I will make of these guitarists lists that we see periodically from like non-gatar magazines is that they, I think, overcorrect from the guitar magazines. Like you expect guitar magazines. to be super into chops and be like, oh yeah, like Joe Satriani is like the ninth best guitarist of all time. Or Steve Vi is like number five. They're both on here, by the way. They're both on there, as they should be.

Yeah. My point is that I think like, you know, like Rolling Stone or like a spin or pitchfork, if they do lists like this, I think they overcorrect and they emphasize like tastefulness. Like these are tasteful guitar players. And I feel like if you're going to be on a guitarist list, you have to be able to shred. Like, there has to be at least a couple riffs that I can hum. Like, you mentioned Mississippi Queen. One of the greatest riffs of all time, I agree with you.

That automatically gets him like into the top 200 at least. I mean, probably should be like top 100. You got to be able to hum some riffs and you've got to be able to recall like a sick guitar solo. At least like a like several. And if you're just someone who's like tasteful, but you don't have like a, memorable guitar solo. Like, I love the Desners. I love the national. But like, you know, actually, I mean, I think they do have some solos. Yeah. Especially in their recent records. Yeah. I don't know. What's that one from like the darkness? Fuck. I already forgot that

2017. The system darkness, that one. That's a good guitar solo. Yeah. There's a, yeah, they have some, but you know what I'm talking about. I think that I think that these mainstream publications, they overcorrect from the guitar magazines by not caring about chops enough. Like, you, you should be able to just rip a sick two-minute guitar solo if you're on this list. If you're not, I'm sorry, you're a fine rhythm guitar player, but you don't belong on this list. Yeah, I think that, I mean, even if we're talking about, like, sick riffs, like, Kirk Cobain should not be at number 88. Like, this is, you know, he's had, like, some of the most memorable riffs and guitar solos of all times.

You would think they wouldn't overcorrect on that. But like, look, any, when it comes to the lists, it's... Did you say Billy Corrigan? Billy Corgan is not on this fucking list. Okay, that is, like, insane to me. Because, like, look, if you're gonna... Yes, he's had a somewhat... Also, like, yeah, Frank Zappa over the edge.

Like, there's just... I, like, I know with every list, there's, like, a temptation to cook the books in order to like make a certain type of point. When I did the best emo songs list of all time, I had to, you know, there was some element of that as well to make sure it wasn't 98% dudes. And I think that that's kind of happening here

with this list as well. Like, I mean, here, like, you mentioned the, you know, both the recency bias going on here and like what it's, you know, kind of going up against, which is the old guitar world style, you know, evaluation of music.

Like, the recently bias ensures that there's going to be a lot more women guitar players on here, which, you know, is great because I mean, if we're going to talk about, like, a list like this, we've got to talk about guitar world in the 90s. Like, like, I know how you mentioned, like, I'm saying like a lot. I know you mentioned how, like, you'll get CDs for like 10 cents just to recreate your collection from the 90s. I want to find a way I can go on eBay or something to pick up all my issues of guitar world from the 90s because you will get like huge artists saying the most out-of-pocket shit in that magazine. For example, Brian Setzer and Reverend Horton Heat talking about how their music is the true sound of youth culture, not Bush, or Billy Corgan had a monthly column where he talked shit about Steve Lukather from Toto. who by the way, Steve Lukather's on this fucking list, and Billy Corrigan's not.

Well, Steve Lukather is known as, like, one of the greatest guitar players of all the time. Hold the line. It's a great fucking riff. Well, and also just him as a session guy. You know, he's, like, one of the big session guys out of L.A. He was, like, a really good friend of Eddie Van Halen. All right. Like, so, like, if you talk, like, he is in that guitar world type.

Like, I'm actually pleased that he made the list because he's totally a guy that, like, someone from guitar. world, like, would just go off on. Like, they would just love Steve Lukather in a way that, like, a more mainstream music critic wouldn't appreciate. You know, going back to what I was saying before, I do think it's interesting to do a list like this now, because I do think that we are post-G Guitar Hero, post-worshipping people because of their instrumental prowess. Like, I don't think that...

that that culture is as central to music now as it was maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I mean, and I think this has been true for a while. Like, I was thinking about that spin music, that spin magazine, best guitarist list that they put out in 2012, where they put Scrillix on the list. It was like a number 100. And that was like another sign of like, oh, yeah, we're going to talk about guitarists, but like we're also acknowledging that maybe worshiping guitar players is. Pass A in a lot of areas.

See what we did there? I mean, that's like every list. It's like hiring a new football, like a new college football head coach. It's like, oh, we're doing, check out what we're doing now or like just read as like improve flavor. We're making a statement. Yeah. Yeah, like we're making a statement about ourselves like with this list.

And I think guitarist lists are uniquely positioned to do that for a publication. Like we are going to make a statement about where we're coming from by why, but by who we put on here. And again, I think there's some exceptions. I mean, again, like if you're in the jam world, you're worshipping guitar players. If you're in the metal world, I think you're worshipping guitar players, and you're caring about that. And those are both shred-centric scenes, so you're going to see that. But, you know, does anyone know who the guitar player is for most artists now these days?

And when you see them, are they actually doing something to distinguish themselves? I mean, usually for a lot of bands, you know, there's not really an opportunity to just, like, show up, like, what a good guitar player you are. It's almost like it's discouraged to do that. Shout out to Rat Boys. I think they're an exception. You know, they've got that song Black Earth, Wisconsin, where there's, like, a long guitar solo, which I appreciate. But, yeah, I don't know. I just feel like, you know, maybe punk is the blame for this.

Like, like, punk being such a central tenet now for. so much like certainly indie rock where it's almost like you're being self-indulgent now if you're like a really good player i mean i think there has been some pushback to that you know we have like black midi coming on the scene um although is greep that dude georgie greep is the singer actually he plays guitar too so does he play guitar i mean i think of the drummer in that band is being the virtuos like if you're doing like a like the drum like it's great to have like a And that's another thing. It's like how many like truly great drummers are there?

Like drummers who can just, you know, play sick beats. I mean, there's not a ton outside of, again, the jam and metal world. This is a quick tangent. But, you know, speaking of guitar players, like I saw the Taylor Swift movie, the concert movie. I saw it with my daughter last weekend. And I had to laugh because, like, they show her band. And the guitar player in her band,

because like her show, it's like very state of the art. art, it's very pop-centric. But, like, her guitar player is, like, a total Nashville studio cat-looking guy. Yeah, like, righteous gemstones band-looking type, dude, yeah. Right, yeah, exactly. He's, like, a 50-year-old guy with, like, a Justin Bieber haircut, you know, and playing sick guitar, like, great guitar player, obviously. But I just thought, like, okay, Taylor still has some Nashville in her, in her, man.

She's got, like, this dude who's probably going to, like, go play on some Brad Paisley songs after the end of this tour or something. But I don't know. I mean, does what I'm saying resonate with you? I mean, I feel like we don't really worship instrumentalists anymore. So it's interesting to have a list like this now. Yeah, I think where this kind of misses the mark

in terms of like modern influence is that it completely ignores like the new psych rock scene. Like you would think they'd have like someone from like King Gizzard or like Ty Siegel or something like that. Stuart McKenzie. Stuart McKenzie from King Gizzard would be like a totally obvious example. If we're talking about influence, like, come on, put Mike Kinsella on there. He invented more or less an entire genre of music that thrives to this day. Also, like, I've had

way too many off-the-record conversations with modern bands to ignore the influence of Mark Kosselik on guitar. I know they ain't putting his ass on there, but yeah, look, this is kind of a necessary list in terms of, like, reconstructing the narrative about guitarists. Like, if we want talk about like how wild guitar world was. I remember, I'm thinking about like all the letters to the editor that would get sent when like doll parts would be one of the tabs. Like this is only three chords. Fuck this. They would say the same thing about basket case. But I'm thinking, and I swear I'm not making this up. There was this huge essay in one where this guy was talking about how the riff from Barakuta was cool. But this guy couldn't take women guitars seriously until they made a guitar solo at the level

of hotel, California. I swear this was real. I am not making this up. And it's like, it took up like five or six pages. They would also like write fan fiction about like what would happen if like Jimmy Hendricks was still alive. Oh man. Yeah. I love it. Guitar world from the 90s is a fucking trip. Man, you are, I'm going to get on eBay after this episode and just started buying up guitar worlds.

I can't wait. We're run out of time here. So let's talk quick. I want to talk to you quick about the Rolling Stones because there's a new Stones album out today. It's called Hackney Diamonds. I wrote about it for Uprocks. I have a column that, I don't know if anyone's going to read this thing.

This is like one of the crazier things I've written lately because what I did was, well, here's the thing. This album is getting great reviews. And it's getting the kind of reviews that you could probably predict that the first Stones album in 18 years or the first original Stones album in 18 years

would be getting, which is a lot of people saying, this is the best they've sounded in years, they're revitalized. It's the best album since Tattoo You, which is like from 1981. So I wrote a column where I compared Hackney Diamonds to every Stone's album after Tattoo You, starting with undercover in 1983, going through steel wheels, voodoo lounge, Bridges to Babylon,

a bigger bang. I cannot wait for this shit. This is like worthless knowledge I have in my head about late Stones albums that no one cares about. Like I'm the only music critic. Maybe it's me and David Frick. Yeah, under the age of 50. Yeah, I'm the only one under the age of 50 that cares at all about late period Rolling Stones. Because, like, I like this album.

I think this is, like, a really fun album. I think half of it is genuinely good, and the other half is, like, enjoyably stupid. Like, that first single, Angry, the one that one that Sidney Sweeney is in the video, that's such a dumb song, but, like, I enjoy it. And then they have the, the next single was Sweet Sounds of Heaven. with Lady Gaga and Stevie Wonder. That's actually like a really good song. Like I think that's as good of a song as you could hope for from the Stones at this point in their career. But I had a weird reaction to these reviews because I was like, wait a second, you're dismissing Voodoo Lounge.

You're dismissing Bridges the Bribalins. How dare you? So I felt compelled to defend those albums. No one's going to read this column. It's like 3,000 words, me talking about late period stones. but I'm glad I wrote it. But I'm curious, like, and I always have to ask this about bands pre-1991,

do you care at all about the Rolling Stones, Ian? Like, is this band, are they relevant to you at all? Like, have you listened to them? What's your take on the stones? What I love about the dynamic of indie castes, that is a legitimate question to ask me. Right, and I'm not being sorry, like, I'm genuinely curious.

Yeah, I mean, I'm a professional music critic, and like I've not let I don't think I listen to a full on Rolling Stones album until five years ago. Right. And I don't think that's unique, by the way. I would imagine a lot of critics of our generation and younger would say the same thing. But I want to talk about that in a minute. But anyway, continue. I had, I did have a classic rock phase in high school.

And I've thought a lot about like why bands, for example, Led Zeppelin or the Beatles, the Dors, Pink Floyd, had huge phases with all of them and not others. For example, Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones, Neil Young, why I gravitated towards one and not the other. And I think what came to me is that Zeppelin, Beatles, they all stopped making music by the 90s. When I saw, you know, the Rolling Stones, what was it, Love is Strong, that was the video where they're all giant there's like giants making out in the city. When I saw that on MTV, it didn't make me feel, they didn't feel more contemporary to 14 year old me. It just seemed like old-ass people trying to be relevant in mid-90s.

And when I listened to Zeppelin or the Beatles, like that, there was magic there. And also they have a very small, relatively speaking discography. So, you know, you can listen to all the Doors albums and be done with it. And at the time, I could see the influence of, you know, Pink Floyd, especially on Smashing Pumpkins, Led Zeppelin, on Soundgarden and so forth. I could see the influence on bands I love, whereas the Rolling Stones, as an MTV viewer, all I really knew was that the Black Crows were really into them and that that extremely shitty primal scream album was...

How dare you? How dare you? Rocks is one of the dumbest songs. I kind of love how dumb it is. but it's, you know, between Screamadilica and, like, Vanishing Point and Exterminator, the, that give up but don't give out or what have you. Rocks, just, that's a band that understood the assignment. So that, yeah, that song is, uh, I love that song.

How is that not a cover of rocks off? I know, they sing rocks off in the chorus, but it's not a rocks off cover of the Stone song. Also, they put a Confederate flag on their cover. It was a William Eggle. thin picture, but like, yeah, it's like, yeah, they changed it. They changed it. Yeah, yeah, you go on Spotify now, and it's just like this cheesy band photo. Yeah, it sucks.

Replace the Confederate flag. You know, I think you're onto something there. I think the thing with the Stones is that for several generations of people now, they've always been an old band, and they've always been a band that's understood to be past their prime. And it's funny, I read about this in my column that, when people talk about late period stones, like it's generally believed to be referring to anything after Tattoo You. Tattoo You is looked at as like the last like unassailably great album that they made.

And everything after that is late period. But that's like a 40 year pan of time. Like their late period is like twice as long as like the rest of their career. It's like a really odd arc. And, you know, I think that explains. why the stones don't resonate with younger people, because that's my sense. I don't feel like they have that cross-generational appeal that other bands have. I think another thing, too, is that the stones aren't memeable for whatever reason.

Like, if you look at the artists from the classic rock generation that have translated, because I follow, like, a lot of different, like, strands of, like, classic rock Twitter. Like, there's so many different classic rock bands that have, like, their own corner of Twitter. I mean, Steely Dan is the most obvious example of that, a very meabable band. But you also see that with the Beatles, you see it with Fleetwood Mac, The Grateful Dead, Bob Dylan. Like, I follow all of those, like, I follow accounts that are, you know, devoted to those artists, and it's all younger people, and they're all meaming those bands. And there is something about those artists where you can make fun of them in an affectionate way as an expression of your

fandom. You can make jokes about Steely Dan, not from like a I hate Steely Dan place, but from a I love Steely Dan. Isn't this a great thing about them? It's funny, but it's also rolled up in what I love about them. And the stones don't lend themselves to that. And I was thinking about them. I think this is also true of like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Who, like other artists that I feel like haven't translated in the same way as those other bands that I've mentioned.

And none of them are particularly memeable, and they're also very male. There's a macho thing, I think, to all of those groups that for younger people, I think younger audiences get turned off by it. And certainly with the stones, you know, there are aspects to their music and their history that are, shall we say, problematic. And I say that as someone who loves the Stones. I will say that, ironically, the most meable part of the Stone's career is their late period. Like, there's some funny shit going on in the last 40 years.

Like undercover, their 1983 album is insane. There are an insane song. Like, you have Mick Jagger singing about the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. You know, you've got like just really weird songs. You've got like dirty work, the cover of that where they're wearing like the multi-colored sports jackets. And you've got like the Harlem Shuffle video, which is awful. It's like them interacting with cartoons. Sort of like a...

Opposites a track. Yeah, it's like the pre-opposites a track video. MCCat has entered the chat. You've got the video for mixed emotions where Mick is wearing an aerobics outfit. Oh, I've definitely seen that one. He's prancing around. Like, that is a mean... Like, Jagger as, like, a social media presence, like, he gets this.

Like, he does goofy things on Instagram and Twitter. Like, when the Stones were on tour, he would post all of these sort of goofy tourist-type photos, like him posing in front of, like, landmarks in whatever city that they were in. And it seemed very sort of, like, wink, wink. So I think Mick gets this. Mick is very smart with this. Like, I think he's like, okay, I'm trying to meme the stones. I'm trying to work us into that meme world.

and it hasn't quite worked. And I just feel like, I don't know, the mailness of them and these other bands and I don't know. It's like you can't make, like, you can make fun of the stones if you don't like them. But I don't know, for whatever reason, they don't have that sort of affectionate joshing quality that I think these other groups have. Although they do with me, and they do in this column. So maybe I can turn the tide.

I can meme the stones single-handedly by focus. on the late period of their career. Yeah. I mean, I think with the stones, there might be, I guess, maybe a reassessment of them. I think that the era you mentioned, like the extremely fucking goofy 80s period, which every band was going through that is a very, it's a very rich territory. But as far as this new album goes, you know, having no real context to think of like what the best albums. Like with you two or REM, like I know what it means when they say, oh, it's their best since automatic for the people or is their best in its octong baby.

I've never heard tattoo you as a whole aside from the singles. So I have no context to evaluate this thing. But, you know, I listened to it. And by the way, I emailed someone that gave me the new Rolling Stones album. It just makes me think of like all the other promos that have been big league for me. It's like, oh, I can't give you a download of this album, right? now, this small indie band where it's like Rolling Stone, yeah, go for it. You know, this is about as good as I can expect from a band of people who are about as old as

Joe Biden singing primarily about like getting laid and or not getting laid. It's not embarrassing. It's stupid in a way that's very enjoyable. And I think the best way to evaluate this is I tried to think of this thought exercise. Like, what if this was a new band called Hackney Diamonds making the same. exact album and you think of it this way. How many times did that band have appeared on the cover of NME by now? Right. Exactly. This is like the best album that Monoskin could hope to make. This is like the peak of Monoskin and it's like mid-level for the stones. So yeah, that is a good

way to think about it. Like if this was like a return of rock band from England that was just getting a ton of press, you'd be like, oh, this song, Angry. This is a great throwback. to like Sleaves Rock of the 1970s. Yeah, this band has really got it. And then you learn, oh, wow, these guys are a combined 400 years old. It's amazing that they're still doing this. We've now reached a part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? So if you follow me on Twitter, you know that there's a new awake but still in bed out. Now, today, that's fucking amazing. And I'll talk about that. I want to give that more time later on. But in the meantime, there's also another record out from an artist called Jane Remover, who I interviewed for Stereogum early this week. And I want to give some attention to that. Her last album, Fralty, is on my shortlist for favorite albums of the 2020s thus far.

It's this album that tapped into a lot of youth internet scenes. I didn't understand a lot by, like, Hyperpop or DigiCorps and made it like an album, something that has heft and, you know, potential for legacy. So I interviewed Jane, and she's 20 years old. This is definitely the biggest age gap of any artist I've ever interviewed. Anyway, their new album, Centsis Designated, is out today. And it's really interesting because in terms of sound, it's somewhere between Ethel Cain, which is another artist who I imagine will be very important

over the next few years in terms of the narrative, and Def Tone's Passenger. There's a lot of like six-minute songs about illicit stuff happening in cars. It's very long, post-rocky, storytelling. It sounds like a big leap, not in the sense of leveling up, which is the way we usually talk about it. But I don't know how this album is going to be received. It's very daring because it could be, I could see it being hailed as a masterpiece or just a total flop from people who really want them, really want Jane Remover to go back to the digit core, like, you know, teen week style sound. So I love it when an artist has something to lose and they make an actual risk.

I don't know how this album's going to be received. I think it's great, and I'm hoping it's going to be well received, because I think they're incredibly talented artists, but it's very rare for a record like this to come out and me have no fucking clue how it's going to be received. So Jane Remover, since it's designated, check that out today. Yeah, I was listening to this record after reading your interview, and I really like it a lot. I can definitely see why it's connected with you, and it's a really good record.

So, yeah, it'll be interesting. That seems like an album that, regardless of how it's received now, it's going to build on reputation. It just has that kind of feel. And, man, she's so young. That's incredible. Yeah. 20 years old.

These kids, these kids with their music, it's amazing. I want to talk about a band from Appleton, Wisconsin. Hell yeah. Because this is a really good band. They're called Dusk. They have a new album out today. It's called Glass Pastures. And you may know the leader of this band, Amos,

pitch from another band from Appleton, Wisconsin, Tenement. Very well-regarded punk indie rock band from the 2010s. I'm not sure exactly what the status of Tenement is at this moment if they are on hiatus or if they're broken up, but Amos has been devoting his time to dusk lately. And this is a band that's more like in a country rock vein. I would definitely group them in with groups like Wednesday rat boys, Flory, you know, these groups that have really brought back, you know, sort of countryish influences with like a heavier guitar sound and like lots of chugel. And this is basically my favorite genre of 2023. If you're a band writing countryist songs and you put some pedal steel guitar on there,

I'm probably going to talk about you in Recommendation Corner. And that's definitely true of this record as well. And it's just like a really good country rock record. So if you were into those other bands that I mentioned and you are like me, you're like, I need more. I need more guitars. I need more people trading off on vocals. I need some pedal steel, all that stuff. I need some chugel.

Glass Pastures is going to be the record for you. Definitely check it out. Great band, dusk. Whatever Amos pitch does, I'm on board with. And look, I'm glad that he's waving the flag for Appleton, Wisconsin, because I'm here as well to wave the flag for Appleton, Wisconsin. So that is the rock capital of the world right now. Appleton Rock City.

Love it, yes. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixedape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.