Indiecast - The Hold Steady + Wild Pink

Episode Date: February 19, 2021

This week, Steven and Ian are discussing two of the most exciting indie releases of the week. First up is a passionate discussion of Open Door Policy, the new album from veteran rockers The Hold Steady. Steven appreciates the band’s long-running arc and recent comeback, while Ian has never connected with the Beat-style of what he calls “dude writing.”Next up on the docket is A Billion Little Lights, the new effort from Wild Pink’s. Led by singer-songwriter John Ross, who moved to Brooklyn after college to be a film composer, Wild Pink’s latest is undeniably cinematic and meditative, a stubbornly un-flashy affair that was originally intended to be a double album about the American West, but was eventually condensed to a lean 10-track affair.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Ian is vibing with New Music And Big Pop, the debut album from Another Michael, while Steven is enjoying Call In The Mess, the forthcoming sophomore album from New York outfit Nervous Dater.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talked about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we're going to be talking about new albums by the Hold Steady and Wild Pink. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? You know, Steve, as much as we are a music podcast, I like to think of indie cast as more of like a conceptual piece about kind of

Zen ideas about impermanence and the flaws of memory and the inexorable march of time. You know, one day you're here and the next year, I'm remembering some guys. And I think that this past Monday really made a point of that because on the 15th, on the 15th, actually, of February, it was the 10-year anniversary of the release of Frank Ocean's nostalgia ultra, which I could have sworn. that came out in the summer. Like, because I remember having like a strawberry swing, uh, inclusion on like an August 2011 mix. So, you know, there's apparently six months of time where like the biggest, maybe the most definitive artist of the 2011's was just not on my radar. And secondly, well, and we didn't, uh, we didn't, uh, we didn't mention that in our, uh, any R&B.

We should have mentioned that the 10th anniversary of Nostalgia, was on the horizon. I think it was, it was on Tumblr or something. It wasn't like a proper release. that's a part of it. But also, I was expecting maybe like a 10-year anniversary piece on one of my favorite albums from 2011, which was the Yuck Self-Titled. And it turns out they broke up instead. Now, I think that was surprising to me, if only because I didn't quite realize that they were still going. I remember the last album they put out was called, it was like actually called Stranger Things and

this was maybe like 2018 or whatever like when Stranger Things was an actual thing so yeah very poignant I don't remember I didn't know that at all I knew their first record and I remember liking it and then they just fell off the map

for me but I know from like reading on Twitter that it seems like they had a pretty good following after that first record there were some good tributes being made you know like when you went into your impermanence soliloquy there. I thought I thought you were going to talk about Rush Limbaugh kicking the can this week. Limbaugh died. You know, does he have an indie rock connection?

No. The Limba ever do? No, most of the time if you were to hear him referenced on music, it would be like rap albums for obvious reasons and also the Slayer song Dittohead. And, you know, you don't really want to post a Slayer song because they've got their own messed up politics too. It's kind of a lesser of two evils sort of situation in that regard. Yeah. Was that Slayer song like a Rush Limbaugh tribute? Like was that a deliberate like shout out to Rush? I'm pretty sure it was like against Rush Limbaugh given the fact that it came out in 1994. I think like Latterday Slayer like the kind where you just only see them in the news when like Kerry King or something like that says something stupid. Maybe they would have been like maybe that would have been a tribute. But I think like 94. I think that was like I. I think that was like I. I. I can't remember the exact Slayer album, but like... Oh, that... I mean, that was like peak rush limbaugh.

Yeah, exactly. Like 94. So that, I mean, they were... If they weren't fans, they were tuning in. They at least knew the term ditto head. I'm surprised they don't have a song called Feminazzi. I feel like that would have been a total Slayer song title. I think by that point, I think by that point Slayer was still kind of considered like, you know,

like kind of a radical sort of band, like on the good side of things. But, you know, like, I think an exorable march of time, like, pretty much all, you know, all of your favorite metal bands end up doing, like, something problematic. I mean, last year I had to go through it when the guy from Deftones revealed himself as like a flat earther slash anti-vaxxer. And, yeah, it's just, I mean, we could have an entire show about, like, all the things our favorite acts from the 90s have done to, you know, lessen their esteem in our eyes. could have like five episodes about Billy Corgan alone. You know, the thing with Limbaugh, and you know, we don't want to go too deep in the weeds with Limbaugh here. You know, there might be, maybe there's indie cast listeners who love Rush Limbaugh.

You know, you might be out there, you know, we'll just leave it as it is. But one thing that I resented about Rush Limbaugh dying, I guess that was on Tuesday. No, it was Wednesday. He died on Wednesday. is that he upstaged the death of Carmen. Ah, yes. The Christian rock singer who I think his death was announced like at... In the morning.

In the morning. It was like 9 or 10 in the morning central time. And then Limbaugh died, whereas his death was announced like an hour later. So there was like a brief window of like Carmen appreciation, which I was like maybe one of the few people saluting Carmen because I actually. saw Carmen live. Wow. In like 91, 92 at the Brown County Arena in Green Bay. It was like some youth group thing. It was like one of the first arena concerts I ever went to. And for those who don't know, Carmen, he's this kind of weird dude who was in the Christian rock scene of the 80s

and 90s. And I called him like the Robert Palmer of Christian rock at that time. Because he was like a middle-aged man, he wore suits, and he had a song called The Dick of Jesus. Dick to Jesus, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was like his biggest hit. Yeah. It was Carmen. It's spelled like Car Man. Yeah. What happened. Yes. What happened on that morning, like, okay, in addition to, you know, the many, many real ways in which, you know, my lovely girlfriend enhances my life, she grew up in like the church and you know she showed me a bunch of Carmen videos last year, particularly like addicted to Jesus. Like those videos are like avant-garde art.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you kind of have to see him to believe him, especially like the talking parts in the middle where it gets kind of like boys to men. Oh, yeah. But I woke up and she's like Carmen died. And I was thinking like, wait, like that, you know, that kind of twee rap act that like K-A-R-M-I-N, Like, oh, yeah. That's what I thought it was.

Like the white, Carmen, like they were, like, they would do like the white people versions. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And they ended up on SNL for some reason. I think so. And I think they also changed their name. At some point. Yeah.

So I thought that was who she was talking about. But as it turns out, it was the, it was the guy that you're referring to. And, you know, like it. Yeah. Her growing, and she's also been on several podcasts. You can check out the Heathen podcast about that. But the opening the door for a lot of the things that you're describing, like the big, like Christian youth stuff, I can't believe I was really ever covering like particularly emo and DIY type things without a real fundamental knowledge of that world because there is such a connection. Oh, totally.

Like 90s Christian Rock, I think. I don't know. I wonder if there has been a book written about that or if there's a documentary on that. If there is, I'd love to read it or see if it's a movie. I mean, I think that's such a fascinating world. Well, David Bazan had a documentary out, I believe, last year. And from Pedro the Lion, of course. And there was like a good deal of footage from Cornerstone.

And Cornerstone Festival, gosh, you would see like Norma Jean over the Rhine and like Pedro the Lion, like alphabetically. just a really crazy combination of like really polite folk but also kind of metalcore and like Christian adjacent music like me without you or whatever yeah it's it's it's a fascinating world but then you had bands that like were you know because you're talking about like indie groups that have like Christian connotations that can kind of go between both there were like Christian acts that had like legitimately huge hits that were like to finally appreciate. Yeah, DC Talk, the the album Jesus Freak.

I'm on my old podcast, Celebration Rock, Raleigh Walker. I was about to say. He and I, he and I went deep on Jesus Freak because that was like, that album came out when I was in high school and I was still going to church at that time. And like Jesus Freak was like the soundtrack of like every like youth group meeting. You know, you put that record on. And I think that album went platinum. I mean, it was like a sizable hit.

Yeah. And then you had jars of clay. Amy Grant. Boys. Yeah, like having Michael W. Smith. Like, they all had like pop hits. It's very fascinating. And I feel like after that, it became more of the like...

Switchfoot. Switch foot. Switch foot. MX. Kx came from Christian Rock World. Tooth and nail, baby. Whereas I feel like... Later on, when you get into the 2000s and 2010s, it's more bands that are like vague about their Christianity, like where they could be talking about a girl, they could be talking about

the son of God, you know, it's just like a general expression of love and devotion. So they're a little bit cannier. I mean, Creed is another band that was like kind of connected to that as well. So yeah, it's a fascinating world. So anyone listening, if you're aware of a book or. a documentary that kind of dives into like the dc talk newsboys world i would love to see that or maybe we need to do that ourselves we need to just stop waiting for someone else to do it and make it a indecast project but yeah shout out shout out to carmette indecast presents shout out to

carman totally upstage by rush limbaugh yeah upstage by rush limbaugh we're given carmen is due here on indecast that's right um let's get to our mailbag segment here and this question comes from Dan in Connecticut. And thank you, Dan, for putting where you're from in your name. I feel like that's a good model for other listeners to follow when they ride into the show. It kind of sounds like this is like, you know, long-distance dedication, Casey Kasem, you know, like American Top 40. That's probably like a super old reference that like the Zoomers and the millennials won't understand. But anyway, two things I wanted to share after this most recent episode.

Number one, please don't change the format of the intro by framing it around annoying stuff that happened over the past week. You guys have a great gag going where you ask Ian how he's doing and he sighs before laying all his qualms out for the world to hear without ever answering your question. Well, thank you. That's not a bit. That's not a bit, man. It's organic. That's not a bit. That is me bearing my soul for the world to hear.

but I appreciate the fact that you enjoy it, Dan from Connecticut. Yeah, and, you know, I mean, we normally talk about, like, annoying music narratives this week. I don't, there weren't really any that jumped out to me this week. Maybe I, maybe my filters were just really good, uh, on Twitter. The post-Febe, the post-Feeby hangover, I think that's what, whatever is. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the previous week was like bananas.

Yeah. And I think everyone just felt like, uh, all right, let's take a week on. off after the guitar smashing debacle. Number two, when you get around to the Animal Collective episode, which we've been talking about doing one, to do an Animal Collective episode at some point, which I think we'll do pretty soon, I would love to hear a post-mortem on Yeasayer. Maybe it's because I was 24 at the time of Odd Blood coming out, but I believed they had a shot at becoming huge.

Kind of related, I want to share and remind you guys that when Yeasayer played 2080 on Letterman, was one of those moments when Dave was genuinely taken by what he had witnessed. Unfortunately, you can't find that video on YouTube anymore, but it's another example like that time that future islands played on Letterman. So, anyway, keep it up guys, love the show, Dan in Connecticut. So Dan wants us to talk about Yaysair, and I just want to say that, like, I picked this question intentionally because I knew Ian would be all over it. And I think I wanted to butter you up a little bit before we talk about the hold steady, you know, which I expect. to be a contentious conversation. But like, this is a band I don't really have any strong opinions on personally. I guess all I would say is that I've been thinking about this era of indie

rock, you know, this like early 2010s era, like a lot lately. And it kind of ties into like the yuck thing that we were talking about earlier. That, that Yuck record. I was listening to the Palm of Violets this week. Do you remember that band? Best of Friends. Yeah, that's kind of very, very different sort of vibe. But yeah, Palm of I think I reviewed one of the their albums? Or maybe I'm thinking of the vaccines. They're, they all kind of mushed together. Kind of like in the same vein, but Best of Friends is a great song. Every rest of their records is solid. But just like thinking about that era in general as like a time when you had like a lot of, for lack of a better term, like B-list indie acts that

could still get on David Letterman, you know, and I think Yaysayer, I think at the time they were perceived to be like, I think they were critically acclaimed in some circles, but they were, you know, like a notch below, like, Animal Collective and Grizzly Bear and dirty projectors and, like, that art rock indie hierarchy of, like, the late odds in early 2010s. But just thinking about that as a time, like, where you had this sort of robust scene where you had, like, these Beelist acts, where you felt like could still have, like, a pretty good career and, like, good exposure. And I don't know if that exists as much really now.

It seems like you have to be... It seems like there's like a core of about maybe say a dozen indie people that get a lot of attention that will get on television and, you know, pop up on social media pretty regularly. I mean, a dozen might actually be overly generous. It might just be like Phoebe Bridgers and like two other people. But I don't know. So that's, I guess, my thought on Yeasayer, that they're kind of part of that like pre-2013 era of indie that I'm curious about. and we're about a decade removed from it now, so it seems like a natural time to reflect on it.

I almost want like a Nuggets-style compilation that compiles all these bands so we can just be remembered, or we can just be reminded of this era, because I feel like a lot of these bands are kind of ball through the cracks. I put together last year a 10-hour, let's-remember some guys mix,

and I mean, I think, like, I can post that, you know, when we announce, when we go live, it has a lot of those bands. Yaysay would actually be too big for that list. But you're right in that, you know, the way that there was like this robust B list of indie rock type acts, like almost makes that era seem like, you know, the 90s compared to now, you know, because like in 2013 or like 2010, it was like, man, it would be cool if like these bands

would just go platinum for no reason, like the B list of that era. But now it's, you're right. I got maybe this B-list slash, you know, upper-middle class exists and we just don't recognize it. But, you know, with Yeasayer, gosh, I have a lot of opinions about, we could do an entire episode of Yeasayer if it really came down to it. But you're right in that I think they're not like the definitive Banviara in the same way that, like, say, Animal Collective or MGMT or Dirty Projectors or Grizzly Bear were. but I think this is a concept I've toyed with a lot in my writing is that I think the definitive

like the bands that really define what it was like to be there at the time are like the B-listers. Like the number 34 album of the year defines the time way more than the number one because you know, here I was watching an episode of Search Party. Great show by the way. And they flash back to the scene where the characters are graduating from NYU and it's clearly supposed to be like 2009, 2010-ish, and they're at a bar and you hear Grizzly Bears two weeks. You know, that's a great one, great, great song to let you know that like, yeah, this is the era.

This is New York. I would have went with Matt and Kim's daylight to really drive at home. Oh, man. But like, yeah, two years prior, like, you would have heard probably like a mainstream song to let you know it's 2007. You would have heard like all my friends, you know, the LCD sound system version, not like, counting crows. And you would have heard like maybe paper planes.

But if you were to play 2008, like that just hits the bullseye of like Brooklyn, 2007. And it's just in a way that doesn't really transcend its time and place. And, you know, they were a band that like kind of like were a little late to the party. You know, they kind of sounded a little bit like TV on the radio, a little bit like Animal Collective. They had the floor tombs. They had the wavy reverb. They had the harmonies. but odd blood man

what a record like they just don't make them like that anymore and I mean in the sense that like the songs on that album are either incredible or like really bad and I don't think you get that kind of like like a numerical rating system just does an album like that no justice because you have like ambling out

and like one and matter red which are just really awesome state of the art like B list indie songs for lack of a better term. And then you get like, there's one song, Rome that kind of reminds me a fish in a way. That's like, okay. And also there's like the other song with the, I think the lyric is like like, like everybody's talking about me and my baby, making love to the morning light. Like that's towards the end of it. And, um, and you have to like if, if you get anything out of this episode, please look up the ambling album album video. Like it's, it really needs to be seen to be believed. But also it's, it's worth looking at

because you see that, you see those visuals, and you realize, like, that was what was hot in Indy Rock in 2010. And any time you think, well, you know, this is where we're at, nothing's ever going to change. Like, we are stuck in this 2020, 21 trend cycle. Like, just look at ambling out because all things are fleeting. And, like, what seems like cool now, like, in five years, I guarantee, like, we'll be talking about whatever that is now. You know, kind of a side note with where I thought Yeasayer could have really like gone the distance and at least been, you know, kind of like a local natives for Brooklyn, like where they aren't like, you know, the national per se, but they still like carve out this really cool space of just making really good music. But then Fragrant World in 2012 came out. I think with that album, they kind of messed up because there was like a press photo for that album where like they all looked like they were like smelling something weird.

and you name the album's fragrant world and so the jokes wrote themselves but you know I wrote the review for that record and I'm told that it went live like right before the encore of their record release show and for that reason like you know that kind of killed the night and like the manager's still mad at me for that reason

he'll I think they'll pop up every now and again on Twitter to like talk shit but yeah just just just 2012 freelancer memory Steve That's what the people want. I was just thinking, like, you said, like, oh, we could do an episode on Yaysayer. I feel like it would be you monologuing for 50 minutes. I would say, like, how's it going again? And then you would talk about Yaysayer for 50 minutes because you just had, like, several minutes of talking

about Yaysayer way more thoughts than I've ever given to this band. I don't really remember anything about Odd Blood. I remember the album cover. Oh, my God. Yeah. But, I don't know. But, again, I have a lot of affection for that early 2010s era. and definitely post your 10-hour playlist.

I would definitely like to dive into that. You get my nostalgia going here. So let's segue now into our hold steady conversation. We're talking about the hold steady because they have a new album out today. It's called Open Door Policy. I think it's a really strong record. I did a story on this band that ran last week. It was sort of like an oral history in a way of all their records,

looking at the arc of their career. and, you know, I have to say that, like, I somewhat dreaded talking about this on the podcast because this is the band that Ian and I, I think, have argued about the most in the time that we've known each other. And whenever this band comes up, you know, you sort of like reflexively scoff. That's happened on this show, too. Like, you, and I know you can't help it. And I imagine it's maybe the same feelings that you have talking about the 1975 with me,

because I, especially at this point, I tend to sort of reflexively scoff at them whenever they come up. And it just got me thinking, because I was trying to think, well, how can Ian and I connect with the Hold Steady? And I was trying to think of like, what links the Hold Steady in the 1975? Two bands that if you looked at them superficially, you would say they have nothing in comment. Vagrant Records. I figured it out. It's vagrant Records. Let me just run this by you and you can tell me if I'm insane. I feel that what links the 1975 in the Hold Steady,

is that both bands are writing about a youth culture and a specific moment in time. So Craig Finn, for instance, he's writing about the punk scene basically as it existed in the 80s and 90s, and he's writing about these characters who are sort of moving in this space. And he's setting it to music, where the band is setting it to music,

that speaks to the people who would most relate to stories set in the 80s and 90s. So it's this sort of like fist-pice. pumping arena rock that I think, for the most part, we consider it to be sort of like a bygone era of music, even though there are still bands making that kind of music. But the peak of that where that was at the center of the culture is obviously passed. Then you have the 1975, and you have Maddie Healy, who I think in a similar kind of way, he is writing about sort of like the youth culture of today. And when I say youth culture, I'm talking about people

who are in their teens and 20s, you know, young adults, essentially. And he's sending it to music that would make sense to that audience, which is this sort of like streaming platform, pan genre kind of music touching on pop, indie rock, R&B, all that kind of stuff. So I think in that respect, which is a pretty broad connection, but I think there's a very that would be the similarity there. Does that at all make sense to you, that theory? I hear what you're saying and I can generously see it but I think that you can make that argument that like really anyone can be the whole steady of their demographic. I think the major difference.

But no, you can't because they're writing about something I think specific about like there's like young people. Like the thematic concerns I think are similar. Like not everyone writes about like young people operating in a specific. space during a particular period of time. You know, I think the 1970... Boys and Girls in America is... I think Boys and Girls in America is a 1975-ish title. That I can allow.

And it's very pink and there's like sparkles on it and stuff. So, again, not much of a connection aesthetically, but like I think philosophically, I think you can make a connection there. Like, that would be the comparison I would make comparing these two bands that, in every other respect, you would never put in the same sentence. And I'm only doing that in the context of this show. So we can, I'm trying to reach out to you here, Ian, so that we can maybe find some common ground on the hold steady.

Because your position on this band, I just find to be confounding for me. Maybe you should say what it is, because, I mean, because we've had this conversation for years now. But, like, I mean, this band, like, irritates you, right? right? Yeah, it's interesting because I, in some way, yeah, it's a, it's kind of in the same way that like I don't like hate Ice Age, but it's fun to kind of have a bit. Like, I think with hold steady, with bands like this, it's like I would much rather listen to the hold steady than a lot of other bands. But like, you know, I think there's like a narcissism of small differences type thing going on because like when I look at the hold steady, um, as far as like what they represent, what they sing. And about. Their fans also like list on Spotify is basically like the, I mean, it's like every band I like. Like it's Japan droids, it's Titus.

It's like, how do I not like the hold steady? And I've had to think about it for a long time. And I've thought really deeply. And when I look, I have to like look back at the source of it. Like I first became aware of them on Separation Sunday, which I think the people that Craig Finn sings about on Separation Sunday probably have heard some Carmen. in their lifetime. So that,

there's the connection there. Because it is kind of like a, it is kind of like a, you know, a prodigal son or a prodigal daughter or whatever you want to call it type story. But, you know,

I look back at like 2005 when, you know, I was aware of almost killed me and I tried with separation Sunday, which, you know, my, in 2005,

like I was really on the cutting edge, so to speak. Like, everything I liked, like, everything I liked was what you would see on the year end list. There was almost like 90% over. overlap. And, you know, what I didn't like about 2005, you know, I wasn't totally in on LCD sound

system. I wasn't, I hated art brute, hated art brute. And I think that like kind of pointed out with the whole steady they have in common is like kind of a self-knowingly clever sort of approach to songwriting. And also like around that time, I've just kind of realized that like the Bukowski Karowak sort of like a mindset of like kind of hyper-masculine male writing didn't really appeal to me as well, which is why I don't really get down with, you know, anything besides the 59 sound from Gaslight Anthem or really the weaker-thens or mountain goats. I mean, like they don't really write like Bukowski or Karowak, but there's a lot of overlap in that sort of kind of hard scrabble, like, you know, tough guys sort of writing.

And so I think the whole set he definitely combined these two things. when I listen to Separation Sunday, I feel like they're a band that's about rock music rather than a rock band. I listen to them as if it's someone talking to me at a party about a thin Lizzie record. And I think the what I, and I actually like boys and girls in America because it felt kind of more like live action than Separation Sunday and the stuff that came after. Like it felt like a song I would hear at a party. It felt like the sort of like a song like a whole steady album that people the whole setty would write about would hear. But like the bands that we talked about like kind of coming in after the fact like in 2000,

would you say that stay positive was kind of the beginning of their decline as an A-list act? Well, I think that record. I mean, that's like maybe my favorite record of theirs. And I know like when I talked to Craig and Tad from the whole state, they talked about that being an extension essentially of boys and girls in America. That it was like recorded at the same place. They had the same producer. You know, they wrote those songs on the road.

I mean, I think the next record, Heaven is Whenever, is like where they really kind of dropped off. Like France Nicolet left the band. They rushed, in retrospect, they kind of felt like that record was overly slick. I know, like, fans didn't really like it at the time. I think that record actually has aged pretty well. There was a 10th anniversary. expanded edition that came out last year that has like a ton of outtakes that are like really good

and it's kind of an interesting record. I mean, the thing with the Hold Steady that I think is has made them even more endearing to me at this point is that they are a band that I think started out referencing classic rock in a pretty like deliberate kind of way in a way that I think was very unfashionable at that time. Like you mentioned LCD sound system. I think there are some similarities between like James Murphy as a songwriter and Craig Finn. The difference is that LCD sound system from the beginning was operating in this realm of like cool music. You know, that like that critics were going to really like that is always, you know, sort of considered to be, you know, quote unquote, like good music. Whereas, you know, Craig and Tad, when they talked to my story, I mean, they were very conscious of the fact that the stuff that they were referencing, like, you know, Springsteen and Bob Seeger and.

you know, thin Lizzy, stuff like that, especially at that time, was like, not cool at all. And, like, was not going to be something that critics were going to go for, which is ironic, because they were, like, a Critics Darling for about five years. And then, really for the last 10 years, they haven't anywhere near being a Critics Darling. Although I think the last two records have been written about pretty positively, and for good reason. I mean, I think they are one of those bands that has had them. the arc now of a classic rock band where they start out strong. They had this period where it was sort of like a wilderness time and now they've sort of reemerged. Like they're in the

some girls tattoo you era of their arc right now, which I think is pretty great. You know, it's funny, like your thing about, it's like rock, it's about rock music, it's not rock music, which I've heard you say before. And I don't agree with that, but I think that's a compelling argument against them, even though, I mean, that isn't true for me. And I, and I, I don't think it's true for people who actually like that band because they do have like a real sort of devoted following that has stayed with them even after they've no longer been the sort of critical band of choice. So if it was just purely about intellectualizing music, I think they would have faded a long time ago. They would have gone the way of Art Brute, who I don't know if Art Brute even still a band. I haven't heard from them in a long time.

No disrespect to Art Brute or maybe all disrespect to Art Brute. Yeah, disrespect our proof. That I'm sorry. Oh, God, the worst. I'm indifferent to them. I don't really have a strong opinion either way. But your comment about music about music, I think that to go to my sort of hackneyed theory from before, I think that applies at least as much the 1975 as it does of the hold steady. I feel like there's such a meta element to everything that they do where, yeah, they play all these different kinds of music.

but I feel like there's always sort of this like underlining of it. It's like, yeah, we're a band that's doing this, you know, and we're sort of commenting on it as we're doing it. And I have to say, like, I don't mind that personally. I mean, I'm a music critic, so, like, I guess I'm constantly intellectualizing music. So when bands do that, I don't care as long as the music is still good and they can pull it off. But I don't know. no, no, it's just interesting to me that you love Japan droids and you love Titus and Dronicus.

I think you're the only person who loves those two bands that doesn't like the hold steady. And I've just... Yeah, but with those bands, like, you're right in that, like, I am a music critic. I intellectualize music a lot. And I think about the times when I'm at, like, say, pitchfork festival, which, you know, the music writer Coachella. And I'm like, I find myself getting into a conversation. about like like a live action version of Twitter.

And it's like, I don't want to talk about this. And he like, can we talk about something else? And I think with Japan droids that like it was, they just made actual like rock music about like the emotion of it all. Like I felt like they were there with me. And I think with also with Titus Andronicus, like you would feel that like, you know, Patrick Snickles is right in the mix with you. And moreover, like Japan droids like. reminded me of like actual bands on Vagrant, like get up kids or saves the day.

And Titus Andronicus sounded more like bright eyes. So they kind of got me out of that like classic rock kind of mindset. But I think the connection with LCD sound system and Craig Finn is that like, you know, they even if, you know, like LCD sound system are about cool music, you never really thought like James Murphy was a cool guy. That's like, what better, you know, to win over critics, particularly in like 2005 and six than like, um, you know, cool guys talking about music that is in some way, shape, or form cool. But I never got that degree of, like, distance from Japan droids, like, or Titus Andronicus or, you know, whatever bands have come up in the dudes rock canon. But, I mean, I think with the whole SETI being kind of typified as a dudes rock band,

like, I think they've kind of like admirably weathered what sort of backlash they could have gotten from that. and they just kind of exist in this own sort of realm where that you don't have to have an opinion on the hold steady, you know, if you don't want to, like not the way you had to in like 2005 or six. But, you know, I do have to admire them like just kind of, you know, just pushing through. Craig made a couple of well-received solo albums. And now I don't think, like you get a couple of wise cracks about the whole steady every now and again. but I think they've

shown a path if Japan droids ever really do come back that they can just kind of exist in this place where you know they you can be you can kind of just rock safe it's like the rock and fun zone if you

to get a Simpsons reference going and I'll say too that like with the hold steady I like the fact that the lyrics and the music are sort of operating on different levels because I think that's the advantage to me or the strength of them versus a band like Japan Droids, which is a band I love,

but there's nothing going on lyrically with Japan droids. And I think those records suffer in the long run after that. Like if you aren't up late drinking heavily and listening to Celebration Rock, if you're listening to it in the light of day, it doesn't hit quite as strong, whereas I think withhold steady songs, there's such great storytelling going on in those.

And you can appreciate it on that level. or you can just tune out the lyrics and enjoy like really heavy riffs. And in that respect, they work on the same level for me as a band like Drive-B truckers works. I love that band too. That's the odd thing, you know? Yeah, exactly. I love the drive-by truckers back in 2005. Of course, I also lived in Athens, Georgia, so maybe that had something to be.

Yeah, that's the perfect place to listen to them. Well, let's segue to a band that we do agree upon. and I think it's fair to say that we are the loudest cheerleaders for this band and we're trying to implore the rest of the media to get into them and I don't know maybe we're just not persuasive

enough or it's going to take a long time but the band is called Wild Pink and you've heard us talk about this band on this show before if you know Ian and I if you read our writing we've written about this band they have a new record that's out today called A Billion Little Lights

and if you don't know Wild Pink, they're a trio from Brooklyn. Their first album came out in 2017. They're led by the singer-songwriter named John Ross, who makes a living by writing music for commercials. I think he still does that. When I interviewed him the first time

back in 17, he had just written music for a Lowe's commercial, which I thought was interesting. He's written music for all sorts of places. The next record, Yoke and the Fur, came out in 2018. that was, I think, an even better record than the first one. And now you have a billion little lights,

which I think is even better than Yoke in the Fur. And this is an interesting record. It was originally intended to be a double album about the American West. It was going to be this grand sort of concept record. And then I think Ross got in studio and realized that maybe it's best to just to pair this back and put out a single record of just songs. And that's what they did. And, you know, to me, this is the kind of band that,

I feel like should be popular. I mean, there's bands that I love that I understand why they don't become popular, because for whatever reason, it's just not connecting with, like, what most people want, and it's like, I accept that.

But, like, Wild Pink, they basically make, like, vibe indie rock with, like, really good lyrics. And, you know, like, they're sort of, like, a rutsier version of the war on drugs, basically. Like, on this record,

there's, like, beautiful, like pedal steel guitar parts. There's like violin in there, but it has that same sort of synthy, dreamy, rock sound that you hear on like loss in the dream and a deeper understanding.

And obviously a lot of people love the war on drugs, but like Wild Pink, even though like they literally slot next to the War on Drugs in the record store, you don't have to go very far from War on drugs to Wild Pink.

Oh yeah. You can just pick up both records or, you know, on your streaming service, whatever. It seems like the critical mass isn't quite there yet for this band. I guess I'm hoping that this is the album that is sort of like

the grower record for people that people gradually discover and they just end up listening to it all the time because, I mean, I think you and I agree that this, I mean, it's early in the year, but I think we both expect this to be among our favorite albums of 2021. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and also maybe just like a preemptive apology because I feel like, you know, when you get like that indie cast seal of approval, like it kind of puts you in that space of like you were like I understand while like young Jesus a band like them hasn't completely crossed over because you know they make pretty difficult like seven minute songs or what have you

but like I think about you know symbols of e guitars or empty country it's like when you get when you get the Indycastio approval you wonder if it just kind of limits you to like having the same dozen people rave over it over and over again but like with this one I like I do I do think that they've leveled up in a way that's like pretty blatant. I also think that John regrets the fact that he like told me about the double album. It's a good thing to talk about in interviews. But yeah, it's like war on drugs. Like it sounds a little bit like war on drugs. I don't actually hear a lot of war on drugs because like with war on drugs, it's almost like a Japan droids like hold steady sort of comparison where like I don't know, I don't think I know a single whole, I'm sorry, I don't

think I hold the, I don't think I know a single war on drugs lyric. I was listening to Red Eyes the other day and like, I think the only lyric I know from that song is woo. I like that thing he says where like the chorus comes in. That's all you need. Yeah. But with Wild Pink, the lyrics have always played a central part like of the music. Like even from, by the way, before the self-titled album 2017, you got like some of it, it sounds like punky almost. Like they had another song sounded like the 1975 that they just put out for a compilation. But he wrote from a way that reminds me more of like almost like Phoebe Bridgers or like Waxahatchie or what have you.

Like these albums where people like it's got like a really beautiful exterior kind of folky, very accessible. But like the lyrics are like very, very quotable. And I think the evolution that he's shown from like the first album was like very hyper-referential about like living in New York and just being in your own head full of like geographic signifiers. And I think that's the thing that keeps them kind of grounded and keeps them special because, you know, like a song like Lake Erie from Yoke in the Fur, it just sounds like, you know, a war on drug song or like a put like what you might say is like the a yeasayer version of a war on drug song. but the lyrics are about like a terrible car crash and like thoughts about space and time. And, you know, the new album as well has like references to watching Temple of Doom and watching heat.

And these things that like just, it's almost like destroyer in a way where it's, it just through it's from a very personal perspective, but it keeps you off balance. Yeah. Yeah. And it keeps you like constantly engaged. And it's this great combination, I think, of classic songwriting and, like, like, like really great sort of almost avant-garde, like, ambient-type elements, you know, which is also... Because Erie Gates, yeah.

Yeah, the Erie Gates records that he's put out, which are these instrumental records that at times it almost reminds me of, like, William Tyler's more sort of atmospheric stuff. Like, it has this, you know, their guitar records that have, like, this sort of spacey Americana element to it, lace with, like, some of the, like, mid-70s Brian Eno type elements, like art rock type stuff. But then you talk to him as a songwriter and he'll talk forever about like Jackson Brown and like he loves like

Tunnel of Love, the Springsteen record and he loves Tom Petty. He's definitely coming from that school of a songwriter, you know, where it's again songwriters that are writing stories essentially that like little vignettes that have these understated but really powerful payoffs at the end.

So that combination of like again this sort of atmospheric music and like just bedrock singer-songwriter type storytelling. It's something I'm always a sucker for personally, and I don't know if maybe people don't appreciate that as much generally. I mean, I feel like they do. I mean, you mentioned Phoebe Bridgers. I mean, Waxahachi, obviously, the St. Cloud. That was a big record in 2020.

And you don't have to squint your eyes too much to put this record like in that. like in that same kind of company. You know, it's certainly like working the same sort of aesthetic regions, I think, are similar. And he's really trying to level up with this one as well. Like, you know, tiny engines had their whole implosion now Wild Pink is on Royal Mountain, which has like Alvays and MacDemarco. And he, you know, they're working with Justin Pittsferrato, I believe the name of the previous producer, a guy who is like, you know, it does a lot of indie rock around Boston.

and now they're working with a guy who worked with like Cage the Elephant and Beck. The first video had like Annie from Schitts Creek, I believe, on there as well. And it's just all these things that in most years, like would signify this band is going to level up. They're going to be on festivals. They're going to or become like an opening band like for a big actual rock, you know, famous rock band. And I hear this album and I think like what does it even mean? Like what would leveling up even mean for a band like Wild Pink in 2021? Like how would we know if they had like reached another level?

I mean, I think this is the kind of band that I suspect is never going to have the big splashy breakout moment, you know, that we can all point to and say like this was the year of Wild Pink. My suspicion is that we're going to look back in 10 years and there's going to be all these people that sort of. gradually came to this band. And then we're going to say, like, wow, they sort of amassed this big audience right under our noses. You know, I think they could be that kind of band. That's my hope, anyway. I mean, I hope they have the big splashy moment. That would be great.

But there's something a little unassuming about this band, I think, that prevents that. Like, you know, we talk about stupid music narratives on this show all the time. There's really no narrative you can put to this band, I don't think. I mean, they don't work that way in the way that, like, a lot of artists do. But maybe the upside of that is that then they just won't burn out as quickly as maybe those more narrativey acts will. I know, that's my hope. Anyway, please listen to this record. A billion little lights.

Ian and I love it. It's great. If that's a detriment that we're giving it, the Indycassie of approval, ignore us. Sorry. Ignore us. And listen to it anyway. It's a great record. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? All right. So the record I want to talk about this week is out today on Run for Cover. You know, a label that usually deals in heavier forms of rock music, like basically 95% of it's produced by Will Yip. But another Michael's album, new music and big pop, comes out today. and it's much different than what you would usually expect from this label. They're a band that's been kicking around for a while. They started out in Albany, New York, and then I moved to Philadelphia.

And this album, it reminds me a lot of maybe like Lomelda from last year. It's got a sound of like kind of being big and orchestral, but also like Tweed. And I would think that this band was from Sweden if I hadn't been following them for that long. I think it's the falsetto vocals reminds me of stuff of like loony deer from, you know, you want to talk about like remember some guys. But yeah, I think with this one, it's a lot of it's about like kind of the experience of hearing new music. Like the first song is literally called new music.

It's about like hearing songs in the internet and the feeling about and how that feels and how it can open up new worlds. There's a second song in the middle called Big Pop sort of about the same thing. and I think for the current moment, like I hate, you know, putting like, what does it mean for the narrative being in quarantine? Like, I think we're beyond that. But with this record, it is in a way like a very gentle, calming, but not like wimpy album about the experience of like hearing music online and just being together with other people and like sharing thoughts about like what it means to be an artist. And yeah, I see this one as kind of a grower as well. I mean, even compared to like the whole setty and, you know, Wild Pink, if you want to consider those the big ticket ones.

Like this is a little flying under the radar. But I kind of see it having a very slow, like the people who would like this or the people who love like, you know, citizen or, you know, nothing but like want to have like a folk record they can listen to. I think this is the one for them. So I highly recommend this one, kind of a sleeper hit. And also, it's not the screamo albums I usually put in this part of this, in the episode. Nice. All right, well, I want to talk about a band.

Their record's actually coming out a week from today. But you can check out their singles on streaming platforms, which I definitely recommend doing. The band is called Nervous Dator, and the record is called Call in the Mess. And Nervous Dater is a band from New York. they're led by this singer-songwriter named Rachel Leitner. And I really like this record a lot. I got the promo, I guess, a few weeks ago, and it's been in my steady rotation ever since then.

I guess that's why I'm anxious to talk about it in the show. I'm jumping ahead a week, but maybe I can build up a nervous-dator wave going into February 26. But I would say that if you are a fan of bands like, say, hop-along or rat boys, I think you'll be into this group. I mean, this is a band that,

similar to those bands plays this sort of chunky 90 style indie rock but from the perspective of like a really strong sort of singer-songwriter in the middle. So like you get the you get the drive and the power of a band but you feel

like you're really getting sort of a singular perspective in the middle of the song and to me it's just like a great combination of like really melodic you know I think like pretty tough sounding rock songs and then like a real sort of sensitivity at the center of it.

And this band, they've been around for a few years. This is their second full-length record that's going to be coming out next week. They've also put out some EPs. So definitely investigate like their back catalog. And also, like I said, check out the singles. I really like the song Middle Child, which is the lead track from the record. And you can hear that now.

But yeah, again, I think for fans of, the kind of indie rock that we've been talking about in this episode really like hold steady wild pink uh you know sort of story oriented indie rock uh melodic melodic music with really good lyrics i think nervous data is definitely in that tradition yeah nervous data man like that in a weird way this is a band that like really makes me miss live music and because i feel like i've seen nervous dater in the past like open up for a lot of bands I like. I feel like maybe I'm misremembering them opening up for like say, oh, so, oh so or what have you.

But like I just know that if there was live music right now, I would definitely be seeing nervous data, you know, not just for their new record itself, which, you know, I also, you know, heartily recommend. But I, they're just like one of those connective tissue type bands, similar to like retirement party or future teens where like you end up seeing them like three times in a year because they're just also around a lot of bands that I also like. Yeah, well, you know, maybe we'll get to clubs in like 2023. You know, I guess we'll see how this vaccination rollout if that picks up at some point. It is time to wrap up this episode of Indycast, but thank you

so much for listening and we'll be back next week with more reviews, news, hashing out trends, all that jazz. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to Uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.