Indiecast - The Last Great American Indie Band

Episode Date: September 18, 2020

This week, Steven and Ian make the argument that Deerhunter might be the last great American indie band. It’s an interesting claim, but one that makes more and more sense as the discussion continues. It all starts when the duo is digging deep into the band’s 2010 album Halcyon Digest in celebration of its tenth anniversary, when they reveal that Deerhunter is the last band in the true sense of the word: an entity that exists as a collective, rather than an identity that’s actually driven by one person.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, we have Lomelda’s impressive new album 'Hannah' and Jeff Tweedy’s forthcoming book 'How To Write One Song.'Sign up for the Indie Mixtape newsletter at uproxx.com/indieSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, we hash out trends. In this episode, we'll be revisiting a classic album turning 10 this month, Halcyon Digest by Deer Hunter, and then pivoting to a larger conversation about the evolution of the American indie rock band in the past 20 years. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? So I just want to preface this episode by saying this is like the first push down a slippery slope of nostalgia for fall 2010, which was easily the darkest period of my life. I remember a lot of traveling for a job I hated, like getting drunk at comedy festivals in Des Moines being in like hotel rooms, catastrophic breakups losing that job. and also some of the most impactful music that I've ever heard. It seemed like a new classic album was coming out like every single week. And I guess it brings up the point that I think about a lot, particularly in 2020, where it's is like, you know, my life is much more stable. It's do I need to experience these cataclysmic personal events to love music to the same

degree I did, you know, 10 years ago? Or is it the music's fault? Like basically what I'm saying, Steve, is that I do this podcast. podcast because I'm too cheap to pay for therapy. I was going to say that like this show has really taken on like a confessional edge for you. I feel like there's something that we learn about your personal life in every episode. It's like a microphones record, this podcast for you. You're like really digging into the minutia of Ian Cohen.

And that's why I always ask at the top of every episode, how are you? Because I feel like it, you know, normally people will just say fine or whatever. They're not giving a real answer. You always give a real answer. And I feel like we're learning about Ian Cohen, the enigma of Ian Cohen here. Am I an enigma? I feel I'm prim. I feel like people who follow me on Twitter know me better than like most people do in my real life.

But that's something I probably need to look at. The title of your microphones-esque record will be the enigma of Ian Cohen. I think that should be the title of your debut. Outstanding. And it can get an 8.0 from Pitchfork, but not the best of music. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really the only, you know, the only outcome that I would actually want. So, I'd be the first person on Twitter to, like, be mad about getting best new music. That's true.

Yeah, maybe not getting best new music is the new best new music. Exactly. So before we get into Halcyon Digest, let's give a little background on Deer Hunter because I feel like, and this is going to be something that we talk about in this episode, that Deer Hunter, I think, for us, a slidious. river really of a generation, not even a full generation, but maybe like a segment of a generation. This, I think, is a very important band, but I wonder to what degree people older than that or younger than that really know about this band. So that's going to be something we talk about a little bit later on. But before we get to that, let's delve a little bit into the history of Deer Hunter.

They're a band that they formed in Atlanta, Georgia in 2001 by Bradford Cox, the singer, guitar player, keyboardist, main songwriter, Jack of All Trades, and the drummer, Moses Archeletta. A few years later, they ended up inviting Cox's childhood friend Lockett Pund into the fold, and he ended up being, I guess, like, the George Harrison figure and Deer Hunter, the secondary songwriter who I think provided a very important counterpoint and made this feel like a real band, which is something, again, we're going to talk about a little bit later on in this episode. For me, like the first I heard about Deer Hunter was in 2007 with their record cryptograms. I'm sure I read about it on a pitchfork.

I think it may be like an 8.1 or something. But they put out the fluorescent gray EP after that. And then I think Microcastle was the one where people really thought, okay, this is like a major, major band. And I have to say like I've been listening to Deer Hunter this week in preparation for this episode. Microcastle and Halcyon Digest, very close for me. I go back and forth on which one I like more. I might actually lean slightly toward Microcastle, but they're both really great.

I should also mention Weird Era Continued was another record that they put out in 2008. Sort of like the strange underbelly of the Deer Hunter sound, as the title suggests. This is all, of course, building to Helcyon Digest, which comes out again in 2010. And this ends up being, you know, I think the high water mark in terms of, of their critical appeal. I was going to say their commercial appeal, even though it's still a pretty modest commercial appeal. This was never like a huge selling band.

I don't know like where they peaked in terms of being a live attraction. I've always seen them. I think the biggest room I've ever seen them in was like a thousand people. I feel like I don't think they ever graduated the theaters, really, unless I could be wrong about that. Depends to you mean by theaters. Yeah, I suppose. Like a small theater maybe.

Yeah, they played pretty decent rooms in Los Angeles. Like, I saw them in the same place where I saw a hum slash mineral co-headlining show. And also where I saw like a show with like, say anything, modern baseball and symbols, e guitars. So I mean, like, popular, but like not the national or like, you know, outdoor amphitheater popular. They're doing maybe like the 1,200 seat theater. They're not doing like the 3,000 seat theater in your town. So before I talk about how I feel about this record, I'm curious, like, for you, Ian, what are your memories of Healthy Undigest? I mean, we know that at the time it was very critically acclaimed.

I feel like in the short term, it was considered one of the great records of the decade. I think when Pitchfork did their mid-year, I'm sorry, mid-decade list, it was number three, like, of the greatest records of the 2010s. What are your feelings about it then and how have they changed over the years? Well, I think I have to set the scene for people who may not have been of age when Deer Hunter was first coming up. And actually, it's funny. Like, if you want to look a bit of Ian Cohen trivia, I used to work for this place called Georgia Lawyers for the Arts in 2006, like back in the day. And apparently, like, I found out later that one of their clients was like Deer Hunter in the Turn It Up days. So it's like I could have met Brett.

I was mostly helping people sue Little John for like apparently ripping off artwork or whatever, but that's neither here nor there. But yeah, 2007 to 2009, the kind of lead up to Halsey on Digest, I think it, I know sometimes this can feel like a Larry Fitzmaurice like tribute podcast, but he said, and I feel like I need to read this to give people some context. He said last year, all you need to know about how music criticism has changed this decade is that Beyonce's Ford didn't even crack pitchfork's top 20 of that year and was bested by an Atlas Sound album that I regularly forget exists. Imagine that happening now. Atlas Sound, of course,

being Bradford Cox's side project, his side solo project. Very good side project, by the way. Excellent side project. Yeah. And by the way, that album was parallax that he's talking about awesome record. It's Alpsum, Palsian Digest. That's the that's the pinnacle of Atlas Sound right there. Yeah, and I think what it's not what people might typically say of the, you know, the time where music writing was oftentimes seen as like a fantasy baseball league that reviewed records. But what it means is like it's hard to conceive at the current moment a point where Bradford Cox, like his every move was the center of the indie rock universe. From 2007 to 2009, he was very prolific. and this was when I started writing a pitchfork. And he put out records like every single year,

whether it was himself or Atlas Sound or sometimes two Deer Hunter records in a year. And if you kind of ascribe to indie rock being a certain form of indie rock coming, like Crout Rock, Shugays, like the cool stuff, in other words, Deer Hunter really stood for that. And Cryptograms is a record. It took me, like initially I thought like this band

just a bunch of bullshit hype. Like, it was one of the last of, like, the pitchfork bands where, like, that site was way, way, way more enthusiastic about that band than, like, other places. You don't kind of see that. Like, most publications are kind of in lockstep now. But with micro, with Cryptogram's a record, I just, I love that record, more so than Microcastle. But that and Weird Era continued, there was like this potential surrounding Deer Hunter where

the guy was so prolific and cryptograms had you know seven minute interludes of like noise or instrumentals the the midsection of microcastle went kind of ambient atlas sound records were also very scattered so he was kind of this hero in the sense of okay like he's making incredible records at this rapid clip but they'll never be like an arcade fire or or like a national like they'll never scale up like that because there's just two standoff. fish too inaccessible. There's just something very counterintuitive about them. And then and then Halcyon Digest happens, which is like their version of an arcade fire or a national album where every song tries to be the one. There's no ambient filler. There's no instrumental.

Sailing is, you know, kind of the one song people, you know, can fast forward through. But what, what shocked me was that it was kind of a validation of like everything that people were saying about Deer Hunter where like he's an incredible songwriter, just an incredible soundscaper and it was all put forth in this very accessible like this is our leveling up album like very obvious about it. And so it immediately drew me in because like it I just love event albums and Deer Hunter recognized that this was an event. album and it completely paid off. They changed producers to have Ben Allen on there. He's the guy who did in the previous year, Meriwether Post Pavilion, and he washed out album. So this, as far as like a

2010 leveling up album, like this is the genuine article. And I think that it's earned every bit of praise. Like, what did you think about it at the time? Yeah, I mean, everything that you're saying rings true. And I think if you listen to this show, this episode feels in a way like an extension of our arcade fire episode. Yeah. Especially in the sense of like there being a moment where

indie rock bands felt that if they made a certain kind of record, like the level up record, I guess that you're talking about, that they actually could become like a big band. And I think that Deer Hunter did have those aspirations. They were certainly showing them on this record. And yeah, it wasn't outrageous at

the time to think like, oh, a guy like Bradford Cox actually could, you know, not be as famous as Beyonce, but like, maybe exist on the same plane. Like, maybe Deer Hunter could go gold or, you know, they could end up being this, like, festival headliner. It didn't seem that outrageous at the time. Again, because of what you're saying, this momentum that they had bubbling up in terms of their critical acclaim and also, I think, just their creative energy. They were putting out, like, really great records that felt a little unformed, that you felt like, I love this. much, but there's still other places that they can go and make it even better. It felt like

healthy on Digest was the realization of those feelings that people had for Deer Hunter. I have to say, too, that like revisiting the record this week, I was pleasantly surprised. Maybe that's surprised. Maybe I was relieved, I guess, to find that this record still is fantastic. Like, I really think it holds up well. And what struck me about it is that it didn't really feel like an indie rock record to me, it felt more like an alternative rock record that you remember from like the 80s or 90s. It had that feel to it, like a violator by Depeche Mode or like a, even like a Siamese Dream by by Smashing Pumpkins. Like records that not only have great songs, but they feel like a world onto themselves.

There's an experience, I think, that you take when you listen to this record. It has like an epicness to it that I think, you know, you don't really associate with indie rock, like, of the 2010. and certainly not after. And you mentioned Ben Allen before. He worked on Mary Weather Post Pavilion. He was definitely, I guess, a producer of the moment. This record sounds fantastic. I mean, like, just sonically.

It just, like, you want to listen to this on headphones. It just envelops you. And, you know, even, like, the album cover, like, it's this, like, very sort of strange alluring, but very seductive image, which, again, that just reminded me of, like, those kind of classic alt-rock records where you look at the cover and you're like, wow, like, what is in this?

You know, just knowing Bradford Cox a little bit, like I've interviewed him and reading other pieces, you know, that he's been involved in. It just seems like that must have been an ambition for him. I think he was very aware of that lineage. But, you know, I think another noteworthy thing about this, too, that we need to talk about is that Deer Hunter, I think, pretty much fell off hard after this record. Not so much creatively, because I really like monomania. It came out in 2013.

That's a really good record. I think that was sort of a deliberate left turn away from the more sort of accessible thing that they were doing on Halcyon Digest. But in terms of, like, their critical esteem and their reputation, it seems like they hit a mountain known as 2013. And again, like, I keep referencing our... previous episodes, but, you know, we talked about a few episodes ago about how 2013 was like the beginning of this new generation of indie acts. You know, you've got Heim, Lord, 1975,

other acts like that. And it was like, that coincided with Deer Hunter making a less commercial record, you know, changes in the larger sort of environment and Deer Hunter kind of deliberately kind of turning away from maybe the mainstream of indie. And it seems like that that's affected their legacy ever since then, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I mean, as far as like when I listened to Halcyon Digest now before like I get into Monomania, I think you alluded to like the completeness of it. There were like zines with it as well. The album cover has a story behind it. And it is that kind of record where you think about everything you could learn about indie rock, but just at a like just put in HD like a much bigger scale. And that's how it's similar in a way to

like Siamese Dream or like Depeche Mode that's coming from this left field sort of you know roots but just kind of blowing it up and yeah it just sounds amazing right now it's like it's a they don't make this anymore they don't make them like this anymore type of record like the sound of it I actually tried to price an even tied pitch factor that's a $500 guitar pedal that helps you get the sound on earthquake and helicopter and he would allow Like that's the kind of record it is. It just has these, it's a very indulgent album. And I mean that in a great way where you just want to pick apart like how did he do that. Even with like basement scene where he records I think on a four track. But the completeness, the wholeness of Halcyon Digest made it made monomania a record like that like a logical step. Now we also have to point out the fact that even though he put out an Atlas sound album that was really well received in two. 2011, Deerhunter doesn't take three years to put out a record usually. Like it was cryptograms in 07, then fluorescent gray, then microcastle and weird error. That was like all within two years.

And then as you say, 2013 happens with monomania, which is a lot of people just given the fact that you know, Bradford Cox writing from like a very queer perspective being from Georgia gets compared to Riem a lot. And this was, you know, their monster monomania. It was louder. It was raw. It was kind of glammy. And it was pretty well received at the time.

I reviewed the fading frontier and monomania for pitchfork. And like I gave them like, you know, pretty positive reviews. And they're like, hey, we want to give this best new music now. I'm like, okay, sure, twist my arm. It's kind of the opposite of every emo album. But like what happened was in those three years, we talk about 2013. as being, we talk about the bands that were rising and creating this new sort of image of indie rock. We have to talk about the records that sort of signaled the end.

I want to, I think in 2012, Centipede Hertz, like that is kind of, that, that was the end, like Animal Collective's album. That was the first time it was like, wait a minute, these guys aren't leveling up. They're actually making this weird, dense record. And I don't think I like it that much. Well, that's another album, too, that took three years for them to come. That was another band that was like pretty prolific. Absolutely.

And I think like in a way, the fact that they took so long affected how people ultimately felt about them. Like monomania seems like a record that should have come out like pretty soon after Halcyon Digest. You know, it's like the it's like the dirtier follow up, you know, like what you mentioned Monster. I always think of like what Green Day did with Insomniac. You know, like after Duke. Wow. That idea of like. Great, great comparison.

I never. The Green Day Deer Hunter Connection is. established. Well, I'm just saying like Green Day did what Deer Hunter should have done because like Green Day had that they had this big, I mean, Duky obviously, much bigger album than Healthy on Digest, but like they had this huge hit and then they're like, well, we got to kind of change the decks here a little bit. We're going to do like the fast, hard fast like follow up right away. And yeah, Animal Collective and Deer Hunter, they took a long time. And it, I think in a way it almost, it signals like like a panic maybe. Is it?

it's fair to say like we're like we we have the heat on us now and we're not sure what to do i mean yeah it feels a little bit like that also we have to mention like only a year prior like deer hunter still had enough juice where a locket punts side project lotus plaza released a pretty well-received record um spooky action at a distance great record oh man don't get me started I'm Lotus Plaza, man. Like, that is probably, that might be like my third favorite record in the Deer Hunter universe.

Like that, yeah. Right after Halsian and Microcastle. I love that album. Yeah, they still had juice in that way. But like Monomania, you get the sense there. It's almost a little bit like reflector as well where it seemed like at the time,

like Deer Hunter's reputation kind of outstripped what they put out. And I do think in a way, they expected that album to be popular. I recall people, you know, talking, they interviewed Bradford Cox and like him being kind of disappointed at like the sales. And they really thought back to the middle was going to be like a hit. I mean, it could be a hit, but, you know, not in 2013.

And this is where, yeah, the decks really started to shift. Because like if you, I think we're going to talk about this in a bit about how if you're not like of a certain sweet spot in terms of age. Deer Hunter might not have meant a heck of a lot to you. Deer Hunter is going to be a ban for a very specific age group. And then by 2013, the world had moved on. And Deer Hunter was still making good records, but you couldn't really say they were at the Vanguard anymore.

And I think in a way, like, we'll probably look back on the Deer Hunter legacy. And like, I guarantee they're going to be people who say Monomania is easily their best record. Oh, yeah. That is like that is a contrarian choice. I think it will, I think it'll age well. But at the time, you know, it just signaled a decline, not just for Deer Hunter, but like for the error they represented. And I mean, when we talk about like, in 2013, there was like such a push to like really embrace, you know, pop, like even in the form of like indie pop that like even Deer Hunter releases a good.

are very good, not like totally great record. It's kind of seen, well, this is, we need to push this aside, you know. It's kind of throwing out the baby with the bathwater of an era, an era of indie rock that, like, people wanted to put behind. I mean, for good reason, it was very exclusionary in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's just amazing how there's these moments in time where you can really feel bands that aren't actually that old just seem old overnight. Like, Deer Hunter just seemed like they were.

of a different generation. And I feel like that was, I feel like you could tell that in the moment even. Like when we look back on it, it is like really obvious. But I think even at the time, there was something in the air where if you were really into that deer hunter record, which I was,

I will say that unequivocally. And I still really like that record, Minomania. But like, you know, you weren't going to, uh, be mistaken for being at the vanguard of like critical thought at that time.

If you were hype in the deer hunter record. And, you know, I tweeted this out earlier this week where I said, just because I was talking about listening to Healthy On Digest, and I said, you know, I wonder if Deer Hunter is going to be remembered as like the ultimate old Gen X, I'm sorry, young Gen X old millennial band. Essentially, if you were born between 77 and 83, which I think we both were, you look at Deer Hunter in a certain way, I think you would be more likely to revere them if you were born in that time. if you were born later or born earlier than that, you may not really care about Deer Hunter. And I should say that, like, I got some pushback from that, from people that were in college in the late odds who were into Indy Rock, like, you know, from like, you know, college in like 2008, 2009, 2010,

who were like, no, we really like Deer Hunter, too. That was like a huge band for us. So that makes sense to me that if you were maybe in college at that time, you were a pitchfork reader, you would have been really into Deer Hunter. But one thing that really rang true to me, and this I think speaks to a point that you've made many times, it came from a pitchfork editor, Andy Cush. He made the point that, like, in a way, Halcyandajas should have come out in 2009 because it's more part of, I guess, I guess that's true only in terms of like the critical narrative. But if Halsey and I just had come out in 2009, it might be more remembered now just because it fits more with what was going on. indie music at that time, then it does really in the 2010s.

It relates like a little bit out of time in that regard. And it just reminds me of that point that you've made many times that like when we talk about decades, the decade should end with the zero year and begin with the one year. That like 2010 should be part of the odds. Yeah. Which is the same way like Kid A was like the end of the 90s to me. Right. Same with like Sigel Ross.

And yeah, like 2001 to 2010. You know, you could kind of see that with the way Halcyon Digest, as you mentioned, like was very, very high in a lot of mid-decade lists and kind of fell as the years went on because, I mean, it's just so, it feels so hard to, like, access a time when that was the, you know, the pinnacle of Indy Rock. I mean, I think about, and also, like, I should, yeah, people in college 2007, 2008, 2009, I can imagine Deer Hunter being huge. Like, I feel as if most of my in real life friends who follow music are the type of people who say, oh, yeah, like I used to read stereo gum and pitchfork in college. And then they kind of stop just because their life goes on. And then so it's kind of frozen. It's like Deer Hunter might be the last band that they really were into.

I think about Deer, like, the moment it kind of crystallized for me, Steve, have you ever been to a Golden Voice Festival? You know, I don't think I, well, wait, they do Coachella. They do Coachella. They do FYF. I think primarily Southern California. Right. No, I don't, I've never been to Coachella. So, no, I've not been to a Golden Voice festival.

Well, Golden Voice, you know, their roots are in punk rock and in Southern California. So with Coachella and, like, particularly FYF has became kind of a Coachella Jr. Like they all, like, it's as big as both of them became, they always throw a bone to like the 40-something indie rock people just to show their, like, like, This is how, like, the weekend will be playing at the main stage at like 10 o'clock. And you could go see like swans or drive like Jayhu in like an enormous tent play to like 50 people. And when I go to these festivals, like it seems like deer, it seems like Dinosaur Jr. Or like Yoletango is playing every single time. And, you know, I'm amongst my fellow olds, for lack of a better term, you know, being 38 makes you an old at the time.

And we thought like, you know, these bands were too kind of the vanguard of indie rock, like from 93 to 2000, like painful to, you know, and then nothing turned itself inside out. Like, if you were following indie rock, like, Yola Tango was like the center. Like they were the coolest thing going. And I think the same for Dinosaur Jr. And then at a certain point, they still kept making great records, but there was just that like kind of tipping point where they became. not like radio ed they became like a band for old folks and I would talk to my friends at these festivals and say like what kind of band right now is going to be this in like 10 years

and like the immediate answer is deer hunter I think in a lot of ways like they might you know if festivals ever come again they might be that band that gets kind of thrown on just out of habit and they'll still make great records but I think that it'll be hard for people who weren't there at the time to really access how this was the center of the universe. I think in a lot of ways, there's shape-shifting nature,

like, worked against them. Because when you think about, like, the bigger bands from, bigger indie rock bands from that era, like the National or Arcade Fire, or Fleet Foxes, or Animal Collective, like,

you can tell when a band is sounding like them. They have these very specific signifiers, but, like, how would you tell, if a band was influenced by Deer Hunter because Deer Hunter's sound is so slippery and I think that's one of the reasons that they kind of have faded

even at the time where they're a new era of bands who were like, yeah, we were inspired by the National or we were inspired by Arcade Fire. It was, it's hard to see like Deer Hunter kind of manifesting in modern bands or at least the kind of indie rock bands that like garner attention in the current day.

Maybe that'll happen in 10 years' time, but I can't think of a band where you would hear it's like, oh yeah, that is deer hunter influenced right there. You know, I was just thinking about your sort of, I guess, continuum of once cool bands that now become old people bands, which I think is a very, like, great point.

You know, dinosaur junior, yola tango and, you know, putting Deer Hunter in that continuum. I don't think you can underestimate the degree to which how certain bands, become written about in a particular era, like as these, you know, I guess paragons of artistic integrity or paragon's of cool, however you want to put it. And like how that ends up alienating, like, the generation that comes after.

You know, like the kids who read the... There's like a five-part episode about that. Oh, yeah. I think that happens over and over again. It's like the kids who, like, read rock critics, you know, writing about, like, the greatness of a particular band that may be that they tried to get into at some point and they just felt like, I'm not connecting with this.

It almost becomes, I think, like, a point of resentment for people of that generation where they're like, I am not only not going to like this, I'm going to, like, reject with this, like, represents. And I'm going to maybe even go in the opposite direction. Yeah. In a lot of ways, resentment is, like, the fuel of the music critic narrative. Oh, absolutely. It's the thing that keeps it going, like, kill your idols.

I mean, it happened, like I saw it happen myself with like when, you know, we upended deer hoof and DaVendra Banhart. It's like, you know, the hell with this stuff. Like, you know, and it'll happen again. Like, I think that's what oftentimes gets lost in conversations about the future of, you know, music writing or indie rock in general. Yeah. There's a band right now that is going to be deer hunter, which, you know, that's a great place to be. but yeah you're going to look back on

2019 or 2020 it's like really I guess I guess you had to be there I mean that's like the nice flip side you know if you're a band out there and you feel like okay we're not getting the respect we deserve or we're not even being being reviewed there is an upside to that

sometimes historically like where if you aren't over covered in the moment it allows people of like future generations to rediscover you or to feel like there's room for you in their narrative, that it hasn't just been overcrowded with all these music critics, you know,

writing, you know, very flowery think pieces about your brilliance, you know? But yeah, I always love playing that game in my mind about like, okay, what critically adored thing right now is going to irritate the kids

that when they grow up, they're going to, like, want to do something totally different from that, you know? And I think that's great. Because like, yeah, like,

is like, you know, we might want to think that like the list or the canon or whatever it is that we've created right now in the moment is, is going to be the last one. You know, this is the correct one. It never is. Someone comes along and they turn it over. And that's great. That's the way it should be. But one thing I want to talk about here, too, kind of pivoting away from Deer Hunter is just like the evolution of like, I'm going to say American indie rock bands. I want to make it more specific because I think Deer Hunter to me, they represented. a certain archetype of an American indie rock band that I wonder like, not that there will never be another band like that, I think there's bands today that you could maybe like in a deer hunter, but it does seem like in the past 20 years, like the way that we conceptualize bands that's clearly changed pretty dramatically.

Like if you look at like the early aughts, the age of the strokes, yeah, yeah, yeah, as Interpol, and then you mentioned the National earlier, they were a part of that as well. There was still this idea that a band should be, you know, every member being an important contributor. They're in all the band photos. You know, there's this idea that if it's not like a strict democracy,

at least it's everyone contributing like a communal type vibe to it. And I think Deer Hunter did have that. We've talked about, I think, Lockett Pund being like the, I think, most crucial counterbalance to Bradford Cox in this band. I can't believe you've gone this long in a healthy undigis episode had not mentioned desire lines, which is like, I think,

the great Deer Hunter song I think it's overrated. I just can't get down with that. I just can't understand how that's become the one. Oh, my God. I like it, but I just can't understand

how that's been the one that people have rallied around. To me, I... We just drove this episode into a ditch, right? Yeah. Well, that's cool. I've heard other people say that.

and I understand it, but I do not agree. But what would be your, like, number one, Deer Hunter? I mean, nothing ever happened is to me definitive. Yeah, that's a great song, too. Yeah, it's kind of similar. But, like, that's the song when I, last time I think I saw a Deer Hunter in 2015 at that, you know, at that, at that play at that theater in Los Angeles. They played nothing ever happens for like 20 minutes. Right.

Like this was the point where they were like just, that was like their thing. It's like, we're going to play nothing ever happens for 20 minutes. I'd also put helicopter up there as being kind of definitive. He would have laughed. I was going to say he would have to pick a Bradford song, you know? I was going to say he would have laughed along with nothing ever happened. Those would be my like right after Desire lines. It just turns like my favorite songs.

And I've heard a lot of people like when I was talking about Healthian Digest on Twitter this week. Many people I think rightly pointed to he would have laughed as like one of the great album closers. certainly of like the last couple decades and I would agree with that but anyway going back to talking about American bands I would say especially like in the last 10 years

and I think we've talked about this in other episodes but like it feels more and more now that bands aren't really bands it's like one person who started the band and maybe ended up putting their early records on band camp and then they end up becoming successful and then they have to recruit a band

to tour essentially like that's the story of car seat headrest, the story of snail mail. I think there's lots of other examples. Then you have also something like The War on Drugs, who, if you don't know this, I am a fan of the War on Drugs. I like the War on Drugs a lot.

But I think, you know, you look at them, and obviously Adam is the focal point of that band. He's often, he's the only guy in their press photos. He's on their album covers. In a way, they're almost like Wilco to me also because the other constant member is Dave Hartley, the bass player, just like in Wilco,

John Sterrett is the only other guy who's been in every lineup along with Jeff Tweedy. Anyway, I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I mean, are we over the age of bands at this point? Are we over this thing that like bands actually mean something important? Because I feel like part of this was always that

even if it was just one person, like a Billy Corrigan or something, like an autur who's in charge of everything, it was still important, like, symbolically to have this sort of band facade because that meant something to people. And I feel like maybe we're over that now. Are we, though? I mean, I think in a way that's kind of where things have shifted towards. I do think that, I mean, look at it.

It's hard enough for two of us to do a podcast together. Like, think about what it's like to be in a band. Right. four people like in that van every night making no money and um being in a band is just a super hard thing to do and particularly uh when you think about how uh people's interests have shifted now like you let's suppose you know you want to do an indie rock song or maybe like an electronic type song or um you know it's just easier to do it on band camp and figure out the rest later um you know, even, it's weird because when we talk about like, I mean, the 1975, that's a band.

You know, that's in a weird way. They're like the most modern. They're the most modern of indie rock acts, but like, you know, the drummer George Daniel, like he's still very much contributing member. Like, even if you can't name the other people, I think one of the things that appeals about them is that they are a band. They're all in the press photos. Maddie's the guy who says all, does all the quotes. but I think bands are important for a certain style of music like as someone who you know similar to the Steve likes the war on drugs I tend to like emo and a lot of the greatest artists in that

realm tend to be banned you know like Foxing that's a band the world is a beautiful place and I'm a longer afraid to die the lineup shifts constantly like I think one person who was on the original record is still in the band but you know they're a collective, Joyce Manor, that's a band, even though Barry's like the guy who is seen as the forefront. And also, those bands tend to break up pretty quickly. So I think that if you're going to be in a project that has a short shelf life, yeah, I think that's important. But now that live music has been completely taken off the table, it's even less important to present as a band.

you know that would like I've seen so many of the bands that you've mentioned ones that have become like band camp successes putting like a touring act together like the early shows those are rough man they eventually you know get to a point where things are solidified but you can kind of skip that point right now and I think that there is still a craving for bands I honestly like I think if you want to look at the band that is most similar in terms of trajectory to deer hunter.

You got to look at Big Thief. Also a band on 4AD. Also very prolific. Also, a very strong focus on the mic. But everything about Big Thief, like they put themselves, like, we are a band. We're all on the photo together. Right. There's a lot of musical interplay.

And so, and I think that specifically appeals to people in a throwback sort of way. I think Black Middy. last year, people kind of, I think that was a throwback sort of buzz band as well that it's like, oh, cool. It's like for British looking, and they look like they're in a gang. It's like this is appealing to me on a visceral level. So I don't think that they've become completely irrelevant. I just think that it's so hard to be in a band.

Yeah, for all the reasons that you said, I mean, and also I think it's hard to market a band. I think it's easier to have one person in the press photo than four people. And, you know, even in a band like Big Thief, you know, Adrienne Linker is definitely the focal point of that band. And she's been putting out solo records as much as Big Thief records lately. And I'm curious to see how that evolves over the years. You know, I guess in the same way that, you know, Bradford Cox was putting out Atlas Sound Records. Adrian Linker is doing that with her own records. she needs to have some sort of like cool solo moniker though, you know.

She needs her own Atlas sound, I think. But yeah, you're right. And yeah, the Black Midi example I think is really interesting. Because I think there was an element to the excitement around that band that was very sort of, it reminded me like early aughts talking about like strokes type bands, you know, that this was like, even though they were very much not like that musically. I mean, they were, they're like this pragy, mathy, just crazy sounding band. Which is itself like early aughts if you're thinking about things like Deerhoo for like Lightning Bolt,

which was also big at the time. That's true. But yeah, I just wonder, you know, I think more and more that bands are going to be like the War on Drugs or to name a non-American example, Tame Impala. Kevin Parker, I think, really being, I think, maybe the definitive example, of this because, you know, he starts the decade in the 2010's making this, I think, great, but, you know, you can call that psych rock essentially, which is absolutely. Very much a subgenre, very rare for a band to break out of that ghetto, you know, and they

exploded out of there. But now you look at him, and because he doesn't have the band identity, he can go and, you know, do songs with Travis Scott, or I was trying to think of the dude, the producer that did, uh, uh, that worked with Bruno Mars. Mark Ronson. Mark Ronson. Mark Ronson. Mark Ronson. Mark Ronson. I've interviewed you, Mark Ronson. I couldn't remember you. Uh, you're listening. Mark Ronson, we apologize. I got to say too, Mark Ronson, uh, looks a lot like my former editor and friend, Sean Fennessee. And I remember Sean assigned me that story on Mark Ronson. And I was like, wow, I'm like writing about Mark Ronson. And my editor looks like Mark Ronson. If Sean is listening, hopefully takes that as

a compliment, you know, both good-looking guys. But anyway, you know, he can go in these different arenas very easily. It could be very fluid, and then he can go back and do Tame and Pala. It seems like in a way, you know, as much as I love bands and I want to see them continue. Like, it is liberating in a way, I think, to break out of that structure in the way that he has. I think what also you have to mention, the irony, which it just dawned on me is, like, when you think about, like, Bradford Cox and Atlas sound, In 2009, 2010, like early 2010s, like it felt like 75% of my inbox sounded like Atlas sound.

Like a guy, like it was kind of proto chill wave in a way. And like I think Atlas sound became more influential than Deer Hunter as far as pointing where the next decade would go. And also here's the point that doesn't get brought up enough. Bradford Cox, when he performs as Atlas sound, changed. chances are it's solo so he can get all like the entire booking fee goes to him um and i've seen i've seen shows where atlas sound opens up for deer hunter so just imagine the double dipping that goes on right there like it's a very savvy it's a very savvy business move well good on bretford cox for for finding a good loophole there i'm glad he could get paid you know however he's getting paid

But yeah, just to wrap this up, I feel like, again, we loved Healthy Undigris in the moment. And I do feel like this is a record that holds up from that era, which you can't say about every, you know, signpost indie rock classic from the 2010s or, you know, 09 or, you know, that whole sort of, I guess, end of the odds period. I really feel like, you know, in the moment I felt Healthy Ondigest was one of the best of those records from that time. And I think I still feel that way. It really holds up for me. I like it more than when I first heard it. I'm really interested in seeing like how it's, because, you know, it's about to turn 10. The 10-year anniversary cottage industry is going to be very rife with this one.

And I honestly think a lot of people who are writing about it were probably from that era and we'll talk about it in the same sort of nostalgic way that we do. I would love to hear what like a 22-year-old, you know, hearing Halcyon, Digest for the first time might think of it. Someone who is into Indy Rock, but perhaps didn't grow up, you know, with Deer Hunter being like the North Star. I honestly like it more.

Maybe it's just me being stubborn of like wanting more records like Halcyon Digest rather than like embracing what's new. But I just hope it doesn't get kind of lost to the sands of time is this totem of a scene of indie rock that a lot of people want to forget, you know? I mean, my suspicion is that that record would hold up better for a 22-year-old than other records of that time, just because I feel like when I hear younger people complain

about Otts-era indie, especially like late Otts, they're complaining about like the theatricality of some of it, the preciousness of some of it, like the sort of artyness of it. And I say this as a person who still loves a lot of those records, but I I think that for... Just say dirty projectors, Steve. Well, I wasn't just talking about them, but there's a lot of other bands that kind of fall, I think, under that umbrella that I still really enjoy. But I understand when someone comes to that after the fact and feels that it's a little too much, maybe. And I don't think that Deer Hunter, though, really has any of those attributes.

I think it's something different in a way might be more approachable for people. by low on deer hunter guys those of you are looking at absolutely now we've reached the part of the show that we call recommendation corner where Ian and I recommend something that we're into this week Ian what is your recommendation all right so I'm going to bring up the new lo-meldro record called Hannah now if you

you know kind of follow the indie scuttle butt of the times like this is probably not an under-the-radar record but if you don't then it probably is and also, you know, a few weeks ago, Steve talked about a Bill Callahan record. So I think this one's fair game. Yeah, we don't need, you know, look, these are people who are just listening to our show were the only music critics that they listen to, the only ones that they need to listen to. So they probably don't know about the Lomelda record.

Exactly. So, and that's why I feel comfortable bringing it up. So Lomelda's music, in kind of a big thief sort of way, it, like, presents a little bit as fulky, even though it isn't folk. I've seen her perform quite a few times, like in that axis of, I think I've seen her open for Alex G or maybe it was Pine Grove or Japanese Breakfast. It's kind of in that realm of maybe start like some unnecessary controversy here by mentioning like, you know, double, double whammy and exploding and sound, those labels that

are kind of adjacent to a lot of the bands I like, but I don't always connect with those bands the way my peers do because I think there's it's kind of music where it was like they had an emo face two years ago they're really embarrassed about now and now they're kind of like went to college and got into pavement or things like that but lomelda is someone who I've you know I've connected with to a fair degree like she puts out records at a pretty regular pace and every time I listen to them I'm like driving to work on a Friday when the record gets release and it's this very like thoughtful beautiful music that makes me just want to like lie out in a field instead of going to work. It like makes me think of like maybe what my early 20s would have been like if I went to an

expensive like private college and like the Northeast. But I don't think she's ever like put out a record that's really hit me from front to back quite like this new one does. Even though like it was recorded in Texas and she's a Texan, it has this very much kind of autumnal like upstate New York kind of feel. field to me. And it's an interrogation of like kind of what it means to be an artist. A lot of the songs are named after herself. There's one song with a chorus where it just like mentions low Yolotango, Frank Cosmo, Frankie Cosmos and Frank Ocean. And it's a record that really

snuck up on me where I think like at a time where like I'm listening to music less and less, this one's like more of like a balm, you know, B-A-L-L-M, not like B-O-M. be where I like wake up in the morning I'm like huh like this song is in my head oh now this one's in my head as well and it kind of gets under your skin like that and I think kind of easing into you know fall and also at a time when uh you just kind of want to be a little bit like calmer more serene but like at the same time not completely like twee this record is just it really threads a very thin needle for me so I think this is, you know, her best, it's a very strong catalog, but this is the one where I think that she kind of levels up and, you know, makes a record where I can point to this, like for people who aren't necessarily following, like, Howdy or bands from that points, like, here, you can have this. I think it doesn't require any sort of backstory. This is a good record.

I'm with you. I like this record a lot. I've been with Lomelda for a few years here. I was actually supposed to interview her a couple of years ago at South by Southwest and she didn't show up. Wow. She didn't show up. So, but that's okay. I understand a lot of things going on. I didn't want to be at South by Southwest either. So, you know, it's an understandable thing.

But anyway, this is a good record. Definitely get into it. What I'm going to recommend is actually a book that doesn't come out until October, but I read it this week. So it's front of mind. And I'm an author, so I always like to encourage people to pre-order books because it's good for a book if you can pre-order it. Even though this guy really doesn't need my help, I don't think.

It's How to Write One Song is the name of the book, and it's by a guy named Jeff Tweedy, who you might have heard of. This is his second book. He wrote a memoir that was very well received called Let's Go So We Can Get Back. This book, though, is different. It's not a memoir so much. It's, in a way, it's like a self-help book, if I can describe it that way. It's a self-help book that posits songwriting as a way to improve your life.

Because I know, like, for me, when I think about songwriting, it's this very mystical process. When you often talk to songwriters, they often don't want to analyze how they write songs because they say that there's some sort of like conduit from God that they're just like channeling music and it just comes out. That's honestly something that a lot of musicians say. But the great thing about this book, How to Write One Song, is that Tweedy basically demystifies the songwriting process and breaks down his own process. gives advice on how to write lyrics, how to approach, you know, words in a different kind of way, how to, like, record yourself, you know, the best way to really just to get started as a songwriter. Even if you're someone who's, like, not a professional musician, if you're someone who just, like, wants to be creative.

Because I think essentially the idea of the book is that creating things is good, even if they're bad. Even if you write a bad song, the process of discovery that takes place when you're able to create something in the moment is one of the best things about being alive. And when I say that, it maybe sounds hokey. But like when you read the book and coming from someone like Jeff Tweedy, it actually does really resonate. And I really enjoyed the book. And I think that if you're curious about songwriting, even if you don't want to write songs, but you're just curious about how people go about putting songs together, it's a really, fascinating read. So again, this book, I think it comes out October 13th, but you can pre-order it now. It's called How to Write One Song. Yeah, I want to buy this book. In quarantine, I've gotten a lot more into just like messing around on like logic and garage band. And yeah, I could use some pointers from Jeff Tweedy. And I think it would be a good counterbalance to like a lot of the records I listen to where they talk about like how being in a band is absolutely miserable. So yeah, we, in Conclusion, Indicast is a land of contrast.

When I was going to say, too, like, I've written three songs myself since reading this book. And I think at some point, you and I should share our songs on this show. Oh, my God. We should put ourselves in the vulnerable position since we've always been judging other people for making music. We should. Okay. So here's what I'm going to do. An Indicast talent show, we'll drop our songs.

So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to, like you said at the top, I'm going to take the raw audio from this. just put it over like some loop shoe gaze type stuff like in logic where I just use all of my plugins and I'm going to make my microphones in 2020 except whatever you call it like the enigma that is Ian Cohen like you heard it here first you this is this is the raw material you are hearing the the the future bonus tracks and demos well I hope you're part of history right now I hope that someone starts a podcast where they review the art that's created at ADCast. When we do our

Indycast talent show at some point someone needs to do a podcast and they can just give us the business about how terrible our art is. I can't wait for that to happen. But until that happens, we have to leave you this week. We hope you enjoyed this episode, but we'll be back

with more reviews and news and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box. Peace.