Indiecast - The Least Indie Coachella Ever, The New Jason Isbell Doc, The Walkmen Return, and Jason Molina's Legacy

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

Coachella is upon us, so Steve and Ian felt it was appropriate to talk about the music festival. But do you really need to talk about Coachella on an indie music podcast these days? This year's lineup might be the least indie-oriented in history, continuing a long-running trend favoring pop and electronic music. To illustrate this point, they revisited the 2013 lineup, a year when The Stone Roses, Blur, Phoenix and lots of other bands who might not even be booked at the festival in 2023 were the heavy hitters (3:13).Then they turned to Running With Our Eyes Closed, the recent HBO documentary about Jason Isbell and the making of his 2020 album, Reunions (15:14). Unlike most recent music docs, this film does not feel like a commercial for the subject. It is, instead, a very candid look at a marriage going through a rough patch. In fact, the film might be almost too honest in places; this is the rare music doc that doesn't flatter its subjects. Directed by Sam Jones, who also made 2002's similarly frank Wilco doc I Am Trying To Break Your Heart, Running With Our Eyes Closed ranks with the best rock films to come out in recent years.In the mailbag section, they addressed questions about The Walkmen — who recently reunited for a tour — and their overall legacy, as well as the career of Songs: Ohia singer-songwriter Jason Molina, who has emerged as an important influence on contemporary Americana and post-hardcore acts (33:11).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 134 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discuss Coachella, the new Jason Isbell documentary, and the return of emo. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's really excited about Fire Festival 2. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? Yeah, imagine my disappointment when I found out the Fire Fest 2, wasn't the reason Blink 182 was trending this morning. I felt like if you're going to do Fire Fest right, you got to bring the OGs. You got to get Blink on there. You got to get Jarl. I'm not here in Firefest too.

It needs to be let's do the old one right, or it's not real. Or it's just like a front to get like five new documentaries made. So for those who don't know, Billy McFarland, who is the impresario of the first fire festival. And I thought he was in jail. Was he ever in jail?

I'm pretty sure. Like, he might have gotten out. Okay. He's out of jail, apparently. Because I think he was in jail, but now he's out, and he's tweeting. And he said that Fire Festival 2 is going to happen. And I think if we know anything, it's that we should take Billy McFarland at his word. Yes.

So I'm sure he's not just blowing smoke here. I'm sure that we can all get our tickets and finally go. I mean, wouldn't this be Fire Festival 1? Because the actual Fire Festival 1 didn't happen. Well, it happened just in a very limited capacity. I think you got to keep the name, though. Like, I think that's the whole sort of deal with first as tragedy, second time is farce. Like people will want to go to Fire Festival too just to get off some good like TikToks or whatever.

And mind you, I don't think TikTok was around by the first Fire Festival, right? Wow. I think you're right. Because that was, was that like 2017? Yes, that was 2017 that happened. Wow. Were we ever so young as we were in 2017 pre-Tik-Tac? What was going on in 2017?

People tweeting about Trump? There was that going on. When that was happening, I remember. I was working at the at the at the at the at the at the at the center in Benton Kentucky and just like watching Handmaid's tale and hoping I don't get noticed by my like

bosses or whatever oh man the the Kentucky era of Ian Cohen that is that that's an interesting part of your catalog yeah but for the most part I was listening to like still I remember turnover and well actually White Reaper that was that was the time

I got super into White Reaper so yeah the White Reaper year Yeah, that was a big. No TikTok, lots of White Reaper. What a year, what a year 2017 was. So Coachella takes place this weekend. It's the first of two weekends. And I'm wondering if we are no longer obligated to talk about Coachella on this podcast

because I was looking at the lineup. And look, this is an ongoing conversation about Coachella. But this really seems like the least indie rock Coachella yet. And I mean that, not to say that there aren't any indie rock bands on the bill, boy, genius is on there. Who else is on there? Alex G. Wet leg is on there.

Wet leg. Eve's tumors on there. So there are some indie rockers. But in terms of like the major movers and shakers, well, here they are. So the headliners on Friday are Bad Bunny. Gorillas are like the second build band. I want to talk about guerrillas here in a second. Let's table that for a minute.

And then on Saturday, a black pink and Rosalia. And then Sunday it's Frank Ocean. Is there any reporting on whether Frank Ocean's actually going to show up? Is that, are we confident that's going to happen? Apparently, the nostalgia ultra car that was featured on the cover was found at Coachella. So I would say more likely than not, he's going to show up. So maybe it'll just be the car.

Like, just take out the car. Yeah. You know, like, like, you know, Night Rider, that car kit. Yes. You know, that would go to like county fairs and stuff. You talk about like, you know, I had to check your facts here because I would say that like, yeah, 2023 probably is the least indie rock one. But did you see last years?

I just decided to look at 2022. And do you remember who the headliners were? Well, Harry Styles, right? Was one of them? Was the weekend last year? Yeah, that was Swedish House Mafia and the weekend. Okay. They shared the headline.

And Billy Elish. So, I mean, yeah, again, this is not a new story. I should say that the other headliner, big performer on Sunday is Bjork. So Bjork and gorillas are like the elder statesmen and women among the top billed performers here. Yeah, I know this isn't like a new thing. I guess I was just really struck by how you have to go to like the third or fourth line in most cases to see any kind of indie rock at all. I think Boy Genius is the highest build of the indie performers.

If you can call them indie being on Interscope, one of the biggest labels in the world. You know, of course we use indie as a descriptor of music that goes beyond label affiliation. but they're a pretty mainstream band. I was also struck, I don't know how deep you went into this poster, because I was looking at the poster this morning, very intrigued. One thing I thought was interesting

is the prominence of 90s electronica acts. Oh, yeah. Like the Chemical Brothers are the, I think the fourth-billed band on Friday. And then Underworld is like on the second line. I think they're at the end of the, the second line on Saturday. And I'm intrigued by that.

I mean, this is sort of like classic rock electronica at this point. I could see that going over very well in the desert. Like, in a way, I would rather see Underworld than Alex G or Boy Genius at Coachella. You know, I feel like in that environment, that music works better than, you know, big-ticket indie rock does. Yeah, I mean, I also think that's a way that Coachella. Chola connects to its roots as ridiculous as that sounds. If you look at like the late 90s, it was bands like Underworld and Chemical Brothers and Bjork as well. I'm pretty sure that Bjork was doing those early ones as well. And yeah, of course, I would much rather see,

like as much as I, you know, it's cool that soul glow and knocked loose are getting, you know, that performance fee. I've been to Coachella when they've had kind of quasi-hardcore bands playing. and you get to see him at like 2 o'clock in the afternoon in this huge tent and not ever like it's not particularly full i mean you're happy for them but of course i'd rather see the chemical brothers of course i'd rather see underworld i mean give me fat boy slim hell yeah man i want to see i want to see the rockefeller skank i want to see uh the body moving remix from bc boys is fat boy still doing it is he uh is he still a thing is he touring is there like a fat boy slim like 20th anniversary tour of the Rockefeller Skank? Is that going on? That's way older than 20 years, isn't it? It's probably like 25 years at this point. No, I think he...

Yeah, I'm looking at Wikipedia right now. In 2018, is the last thing he did, which is the remix album. Okay. But he's probably on the road. He's probably doing like corporate events. Yeah. You know, like if Google wants to throw a party for the employees, you bring in Fat Boy Slim. and who else from that era would you bring in?

Maybe you bring in the band. Well, he would probably find some bullshit like moralistic issue with it, but he would probably take that. Oh, no way. He would take that check at this point. Yeah, but like, come on,

what kind of stand is Moby taking at this point? I think he's like a vegetarian, so he's probably not going to... Vegan. He's got that tattooed and he's got that tattooed on it and somehow you missed it. So he's not going to... going to be doing, you know, he's not playing slaughterhouses or anything like that. But other than that, I think Moby would definitely sell out. We've talked about this before, but I don't know, it just

tickles me to think about the 2013 Coachella, because, you know, we're 10 years on here. And I was looking at the poster for that. And we've talked about this year of Coachella before, because the Stone Roses and Blur headline one day. By the way, Damon, all the way, The Coachella mascot here. We got Blur in 2013. He's here with guerrillas in 2023. I mean... He's probably bad with the good, the bad, and the queen as well.

That's right. Right. The good, the bad, and the queen. All of the Damon Alburn projects are welcome at Coachella. I mean, it's pretty clear now that guerrillas are like way bigger than Blur ever were. At least in America. I mean, Blur is basically like a gorilla's footnote at this point, which kind of blows my mind. You know, and this is my age, I guess.

I mean, gorillas to me will always seem like a novelty band. The cartoon rappers with a little bit of rock mixed in. The kids love gorillas, though. They really, really do. You'd be shocked. just how many guerrillas t-shirts I see on people who are young.

I mean, like, you know, the fact that it is... Why, though? Why? Maybe the fact that there is a... It is a cartoon, or... Maybe there's just, like, really fucking emotionally moved by Clint Eastwood. I don't know, you know. I don't know. Yeah, it's very strange to me.

But anyway, going back to the 2013 lineup, you had Stone Roses and Blurter the headliners, and obviously, Stone Roses were not a great... headliner for Coachella. They were terrible. I was there.

It was like so fucking sad. Yeah. So this is like a transition for Coachella. I think they still sold out this year. But it was like, okay, we can't be catering to Stone Roses fans in 2013. But other acts on Friday, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, modest mouse. Lou Reed. Huh.

I don't remember that. Well, he canceled because he passed away later this year. I imagine he was already set. at this point. So he didn't make it to Coachella. Jurassic 5 and Grindrman. That set ruled, by the way. Nobody was there, but that's that rule. But Grinderman? Oh, yeah. Oh, I bet. But I'm the second line of the Coachella poster, Grindr Man. Kind of mind-blowing. I think they played opposite the weekend or something like that. Oh, man. It was just like, I love that like nowadays that, you know, you have like Chemical Brothers or like, or Underworld as like, the old head

uh tent whereas in 2013 you would have like grinder man and swans and drive like Jayhu yeah it's really the sign of the times there so Saturday Phoenix was the headliner coming off their flop album yes bankrupt era uh yeah bankrupt was the name of the record but was also in a way phoenix's state of business at the at the time they're the headliner and that was weird even in 2013 I wrote a column for

Grant like about that. Like, why is Phoenix headlining Coachella? The XX, Postal Service, Cigar Ross, New Order, Hot Chip, and Grizzly Bear on the second line of the Coachella poster. And then you get to Sunday, you have the chili peppers headlining. Okay, that's, it's the Josh Klinghofer era, though, of the chili peppers. Yeah. Not full straight.

I did not go to that. I did not go to that one. Yeah, it's like 75% of the. Chile Puffles. I drove home. Yeah, I drove the fuck home. Nick Cave in the Bad Seas. Nick Cave doing double duty as a Coachella. So he got paid twice, I imagine. Get that bag. Vampire Weekend. Social distortion. The second line. Hell yeah. Wutang Clan. That bill feels like it was 20 years ago. Not 10 years ago. I mean, some of those bands weren't around 20 years ago, but you know what I mean. It seems so far away. Like, Like, just, like, how many of these bands would even be booked at Coachella now, much less as a headliner? You know, like, like, would social distortion be booked at Coachella now? I mean, or even, you know, like the AAS, a fine band, but you just look at what they're doing. You think they would?

Okay, so. I think so. I think them, I think, I think, I think you could always get away with having new order there. That stuff always plays well. Postal service, sure. but like, yeah, vampire weekend, of course, as well. But, like, social distortion has, like, a deal with, like, the House of Blues around America, sort of like Elvis at that one hotel back in his Vegas days, you know.

Every single time I passed by the House of Blues when I was living in L.A., it felt like social distortion was playing there. Yeah, I just like to imagine whoever social distortion was playing opposite to, there's, like, 10,000 people there. And then for Social D, it's like 100 guys in like greaser haircuts hanging out. Fucking Rockabilly. The Teddy Boys, just the worst. Like, I mean, I don't want smoke with Social Distortion fans, but God, man.

I like Social Distortion. Like, I like that band. I just think it's funny thinking about them in the context of Coachella. 2013. And, like, I imagine Social D plays Southern California quite a bit. I don't know if you're going to go to Coachella to see SocialD. But I don't know. Maybe there was like, you know, someone who was there for like Glorilla

and they saw social distortion by accident. And, you know, they had their mind blown. They had their mind blown by bad luck and Mommy's little monster. I was wrong. Let's talk about this Jason Isbell documentary that debuted on HBO. I think it was last weekend. It was last Friday. It's called Running with Her Eyes Closed, and it's directed by Sam Jones, who also directed, I Am Trying to Break Your Heart, the Wilco film, one of the great documentaries, music documentaries of the last 20 years.

And like that film, this new Jason Isbell movie, it focuses on the making of an album. In this case, it's Isbel's 20-20 record reunions. And it's also like the Wilco movie centered on a troubled relationship between two creative people. In this case, it's Isbel and his wife and bandmate Amanda Shires. And I wanted to get your take on this because you saw the movie. I think you asked me like, should I watch this? And I was like, yeah, I think you'll enjoy it. Because I know you're not a huge Isbel fan solo.

But I think this is the kind of movie that even if you're not a huge, fan of Jason Isbell. You could get into this movie because it's just an interesting documentary. And in terms of music documentaries, what stood out to me is that this is the first music doc I've seen in a while that didn't feel like a commercial for the artist. You know, there's this trend now. There's so many music documentaries being made. And most of them are authorized by the artist.

And the artist essentially owns the movie. So they have a vested interest in putting out a certain image of themselves. And watching this movie, I mean, I don't know to what degree Isabel had control over this. But if he did, he allowed Sam Jones to paint him at times in an unflattering light. I think it ultimately makes him look good because he seems cruximate. courageous to have allowed this movie to be put out. It's for the same reason why some kind of monster, the Metallica movie, I think ultimately makes Metallica look good because they had the guts to, like, show this kind of terrible

side of themselves in this movie, which, by the way, I recently watched some kind of monster. That might be the best music doc of the 12th century. If it's not, it's in the conversation with I Am Trying to Break Your Heart and Dig and maybe a couple others as the best. But I don't know, this movie, it's so candid about the marital problems that Isbell and Shires are having at this moment in time. Part of me was like, oh, is this like too honest? You know, because, like, as a viewer, I appreciated it because the movie is riveting.

It's very absorbing, especially for the first hour. because it also gets into like the drive-by trucker stuff with Isbell, which could have been its own movie as far as I was concerned. I mean, that stuff was so interesting. But, you know, this is more than just sort of delving into like a band with interpersonal problems. This is like talking about a marriage. And there are scenes in this movie where I was cringing a little bit. Like there's a scene where Amanda Shires is talking about how she had Isbel

take an STD test before they hooked up. Yeah, that ruled. Because he was, you know, I don't know, sleeping around, I guess, in his single days as a musician. Um, and I just wonder, like, what's the cost benefit of being this open about your marriage? I mean, again, as a viewer, I was totally into it, but if I was like a friend of Jason's or Amanda's, I might be like, do you really want to put your business out there like this? It just feels like you're giving ammunition to every internet troll from now until the end of time. I don't know.

What was your reaction to this movie? I mean, again, I really like the movie, but it is like, I think, the rare music documentary where you actually feel uncomfortable at times because it is so candid. I mean, I wish Jason Isbell all the health and happiness the universe will afford him. But I mean, wouldn't you take this documentary

for like two hours of my coolly narrowing? drinking anecdotes about the drive-by truckers days. I was a little disappointed I didn't hear from him. I mean, I just loved, see, when I profiled the drive-by truckers in 2015, like I went to Athens and I hung out with them, and Cooley was like, I would love it if I didn't have to talk about ex-band members in this interview. Like, I don't think he was down, because they had all, because it wasn't just Isbell and Shona Tucker, there was like some other drama that happened after that.

in that band. But anyway, I'm sure Cooley was like, I don't want to talk about this. Yeah. I would just love to hear him just like in his voice, which is probably very similar to his singing voice, just talk about like how fucking hard they went.

Because I appreciated that part because it was just a confirmation that they were as wasted as I was at those shows at the time. And, you know, Jason Isbell at that time kind of looks like Matt Stafford. If like he played guitar instead of a quarterback, Love that whole era. But yeah, I mean, I think what immediately struck me is that, you know, it kind of looked like one of those King of Queen style sitcoms because, you know, you have Amanda Shire's in there.

Like she has like an MFA in poetry. She can sing really well. She plays several instruments, successful solo career. And like ultimately she has veto power over anything that Jason Isbell seems to do. and Jason's just like kind of this schlubby Alabama guy. He's like, well, I guess I'm paying for everything. So what are you going to do? And so that was a really interesting part of it as well because, you know, even if objectively speaking,

Amanda Shires might be more of a talent or a star or whatever. It's like we are watching this because Jason is Bell. And it's a really, it almost reminded me of like a more hands-on version of that thing we read where it was one of the Gallagher brothers. apparently his wife didn't like Oasis. I think the most cringe-worthy thing is when he picks up like a 12-string guitar. And Amanda Shire's like, I would fucking remove every single one of these things if I could. She's not into the 12-string guitar for some reason.

That's a very interesting thing. She just goes on a rant about how she hates 12-string guitars. Which, you know, to be fair, I mean, it does, you know, it does have a very distinct sound. And if you don't like it, you know, it might just have associations with music that you're not into. But, you know, I also love how she's, like, wearing all these, like, very oversized glasses. I think that would be the thing that would activate the troll contingent of Jason Isbell's fan base more than anything. Yeah, I mean, you know, going back to what you were saying, I mean, one thing that that's alluded to in this movie and it's not fully addressed is what happened. Like when two artists are together and they're in the same field, is it inevitable that you're

going to have some sort of competitive thing going on? Like that was something that I was observing watching this movie because, you know, you're talking about the King of Queens dynamic between Jason and Amanda. And I know what you mean, but it's also true that Isbel is more successful in his career. and he's more famous than Amanda is. And there does seem to be like some tension about like where they fit with each other in terms of their creative lives. And then you have the personal dynamic going on. It's a very interesting thing.

In a way, when I was watching it, I was like, this is sort of like if Jeff Tweedy and Jay Bennett were married. And I am trying to break your heart. Like if you also had that dynamic on top of all the. of the creative stuff going on. Because there is a thing in this movie, like, where they're in the studio. And at times, Amanda Shire's is, like, belittling what Jason Isbell is doing to the camera in a way that seems not quite productive. And then at the same time, he's saying rude things to her.

It's like a lot of passive-aggressive stuff going on. And it's the kind of thing where, you know, because of the access that Sam Jones has, he's able to show a lot of things without telling you. You know, like, it's not, there is a lot of stuff in the movie, like, where they're directly talking to the camera about the issues that they're having in their marriage. But there's also just like a lot of observed behavior in the movie that I think is fascinating.

And again, I love it as a viewer. There's a part of me, though, that's like, are they going to regret, you know, this movie coming out? Like, I don't know if I would want, like, my marriage to be exposed in this way. It's a very courageous thing to do. I just wonder, like, why do this? What is the benefit of it? Unless you feel it's, like, therapeutic in some way.

I mean, I know, like the Metallica guy said that about some kind of monster, that this allowed them to sort of work through their issues and that they felt the film helped them, you know, along with the therapy that they were doing at that time. So maybe there's that aspect to it. But I don't know, maybe I'm a more private person. Like, I wouldn't want to air. Because it's one thing to say, like, oh, our band is falling apart, but like a marriage is such a personal thing.

I mean, there's like a level of exposure in this film that I just, I haven't seen in a music doc in a while. Yeah, I mean, I could just imagine, you know, showing my creative process where it's like, okay, I'm going to go write about new pornographers for an hour. You could watch like an episode of Love is Blind, you know, it doesn't have the same frisson or whatever you want to call it. But I think that just, I think it humanizes them more so that makes them look bad. And I think a big part of Jason Isbell's appeal and I would say Amanda Shires as well is being kind of human. You know, like they're like, oh, I could see these as people I might hang out with. You know, I will say the one funniest part of this is, you know, in the beginning, there's that part where they're kind of pouring over like what's the proper. preposition to use in a song.

And Jason's like, Amanda won't tolerate a cliched lyric. And, like, later on, he's singing a song that rhymes like, friend with end and then pain with rain. Yeah. Ryan Adams or some shit. Yeah. I mean, there are elements in this film,

just like with some kind of monster. And I am trying to break your heart where... Yeah. The line between a documentary and the parody of a documentary gets blurry. You know, and I think it just goes to, show that all forms of dysfunction are a cliche in some way. Like any kind of fight that you have that maybe seems specific to your situation, if you pull back a bit, you can just say, well, that's a fight that any band has or any

couple has, and it becomes comedic. And there are parts of this movie running with her eyes closed that I think are sort of unintentionally funny in the way that you said. But overall, really good movie. I really liked it. And I would recommend it. Even if you're not a fan of Isabel, if you're just into music documentaries, I think this is definitely one of the better ones I've seen in a while.

So you brought this up to me, because this is totally in your wheelhouse. So I'm going to let you take the lead on this. But apparently CBS News this week did a story about emo. It's about how emo is back, and I believe it featured Demi Lovato, who I guess is an emo artist? I don't think she is, but CBS News, they have seasoned journalists, investigative reporters. So there was a CBS News investigation that concluded that Demi Lovato is an emo musician. So we learned something there. This story, because I think it talks about Emo Night as well with a couple other.

sort of shallow signifiers. Because I'm a big fan of, like, emo isn't getting enough respect, discourse. So is this story an example of that? Are we bringing back that discourse for this story? Did CBS News get it wrong? Or is this something that is actually good for the emo community? I mean, I don't even know if it's, like, a sign of maturity or just this kind of irreversible, emotional necrosis.

But I can't even get mad about this kind of shit anymore. I mean, first off, I thought it was even funnier that there was an article, there was an interview with Braid about the framing canvas reissue in People magazine. I think it was just online, but nonetheless, on people. The same guy did a hot water music interview for people before. Oh, people's, it's people's emo correspondent. They have their own investigative reporters in the emo community. Did this person also interview Demi Levato? I don't think so. I think he's more kind of the

the kind of the kind of like advanced social distortion kind of people where it's like, you know, they got like sleeve tattoos and denim jackets, but they push their kids in a stroller. It's like that kind of at-water dad look. But yeah, I mean, like whatever, do this. Like, it's like Averill Levine and Emo Night and Demi Lovato. I mean, as long as someone's talking about it

because like DIY indie emo, like this year is just deader than fucking dead man. Like I already told our editor, Phil, that I can't put together a top 10 list for December unless things change rapidly, you know? It's, I know that there's bands trying to like, you know, make

emo music now, but a lot of it sounds like, uh, like a retread of all the Tumblr core stuff like balancing composure and citizen and Sea Haven, which, you know, that stuff sounded like swagless bush back in the day. But hey, balancing composure's back.

And that's, I mean, that's kind of a big deal. The pitchfork track review I wrote for reflection was probably the most consequential thing I ever put on that site because, you know, people lost their goddamn minds and kind of showed that, hey, maybe we should start covering stuff from this era. But, yeah, good for balance and composure. You know, like many people from that era, they, you know, kind of disavowed emo and tried to get into SoundCloud rap and so forth. but yeah, it's kind of, there can only be one wick of face, brings eternal, and there's room for many tigers jaws. Wait, balance of composure was doing sound cloud rap? The lead singer John Simmons, who I've interviewed,

he got not sound cloud rap per se, but it was like, he wasn't like rapping, but it was still that kind of sound, that sort of 2018, 19 post little peep sort of thing. Okay, wow, that tall. totally passed me by. I was not aware of like the little peep era of balance and composure in the balance and composure universe.

I mean, I remember this band. I remember like when they came out in the early 2010s and listening to them and probably talking about them with you. And this is just another example of how things that do not seem consequential in the moment may

end up being important later on. Because as you said, this band had a big tumbler presence. And there was a certain generation of teenagers, I think, that were into this band. I mean, I remember listening to them and appreciating them sort of as like a pop grunge type band, more than an emo band. I mean, there was some emo elements maybe to what they were doing. But when I first heard it, I was like, oh, this is kind of like a throwback alt-rock thing. Oh, absolutely.

Which at the time was unique. I mean, that became something that became very pervasive as the decade wore on. But in 2013, it was kind of fresh and fun. And I liked the record. But I would not have thought that we would be thinking or caring about this band 10 years in the future. I mean, I was probably thinking about flying cars in 2013. No flying cars yet. Looks like we're not going to ever get the flying cars.

but we do have a balance and composure revival going on. Yeah, I mean, good for them. I just think about like the one person, like my colleague, Mike Powell, one of the greatest writers that he's kind of falling off the radar, you know, caring for his kids. But I remember he heard reflection. And he said to me like one of the most poignant pieces of music criticism

I've ever heard where he was like, I've never felt this way in my entire life. In other words, It was like kind of a passive aggressive diss. It's like, yeah, man, if you're like a classy kind of dude, you're reading books and whatever, yeah, you won't relate to this. But it was kind of like a turbocharged Lincoln Park or deaf tones or whatever. And I was just happy that like we were able to, I don't know, shine a light on that, at least for a little while. All right.

Well, let's go to our mailbag segment. Thank you all for writing in. It's always great to hear from our listeners. You can hit us up at Indycast Mailbag at GM. Email.com. I feel like I should say, or I should acknowledge that Ian, like, are you holding up? I know that you're sick here. You kind of have like a Tom Waits thing going on with your voice. A little throwy. Pay a tribute to a San Diego legend. Yeah. Are you hanging in? You're playing her.

I'm hanging in there, man. All right, man. I appreciate it. No days off. Do you want to read our first letter? I do. So this one comes from Patrick from Chicago talking about the Walkman. They are back after an extended hiatus. And Patrick wants to know what are your thoughts on them. How does their discography hold up? I'm seeing them in a few weeks and excited to be equally enthralled and bummed out by The Rat. So the Walkman, they have The Rat. No other songs. I'm playing. Yeah, like what do we think about this band? Patrick is asking.

Yeah. Well, okay, I have two things with this band. The first thing is that I think this is a classic example of a band that produced a song so great that in a way it kind of dampened the rest of their career. And Patrick referred to the song that we're talking about, The Rat, which was not an actual hit in terms of like the charts, but in terms of like Otts era indie is just like a huge song. and it's a kind of song where pretty much anything anyone ever wrote after that song came out they referenced the rat

and as the Walkman's career progressed and it became clear that they were not interested in making another version of the rat it seemed like people were bringing up that song to criticize their subsequent records and I have to say that I think that's like a little unfair

I'm actually a fan of some of those late period Walkman records, Lisbon in particular, which I think came out in 2010. I think it's like a great record. Yeah, that's a good record. And contrary to like the narrative on this band, I don't think they stopped making rocking songs necessarily. I mean, there's some rocking songs on Lisbon, but it is true that their music gets quieter as it goes along. and again it seemed like people were so infatu infatuated with the rat that they were almost angry that they weren't doing that more often so there's that I think the other thing with the Walkman is that I think the National drank their milkshake

so to speak in that it's a band that's similar to the Walkman in a lot of ways they came after the Walkman in terms of their prominence like the Walkman were at their peak sort of indie prominence, I would say mid-2000s. The rat came out, I think, in 2004. And then the National, in the late 2000s, they start to rise. And they're doing a similar thing, like where the National, they can have some rocking songs, but they also have this sort of hushed Leonard Cohen, Nick Cave type thing going on.

And they were just a more consistent band. You know, like the Walkman, I think, had a contrarian streak in what they did. They did a whole album where they covered the Harry Nielsen record Pussycats, which itself is a collection of covers. So it was sort of like an in-joke for like music nerds that like someone like myself would appreciate. But in terms of just like a general audience, I think they lost the plot a little bit. Whereas a band like the National obviously has shown that they can appeal to sort of like just regular people, not just indie music fans. So I wonder if there was sort of an element of that where they got overshadowed by a similar band that they weren't quite as good as good as, as well as just being overwhelmed by the rat. Because I think that that song, it looms so large in their catalog, again, to a degree that I think is a little unfair.

I remember looking on, like listening to The Rat on Spotify one time and it had like, I think, genius lyric posts where it has like, little blurbs or descriptions. And like it said with the rats, like the Walkman don't have a lot of songs like The Rat. And yeah, but I would also say thinking of a dream and Little House of Savages from Bowes and Arrows, like those also

whip. And if I remember correctly, I think the Meet Me in the Bathroom chapter about The Walkman is super short, at least compared to like Jonathan Fire Eater. And it just basically talks about like, yeah, man, remember the rat? That shit ripped hard.

And I'm like, yeah, I couldn't agree more. But yeah, I think the walkmen are an interesting thing. I do think you're correct in that maybe the National overshadowed them to the point where they might be seen as a little bit underrated now because they never got as big as some of the other bands that they came up around. And they never got as critically acclaimed. And also they never got as overexposed. But I would actually argue they're like an example of a band that's like,

extremely accurately rated in that, you know, the reason they're, they're not a worse band than Interpolar Strokes or LCD, or the national, but like, you can build an entire personality around liking those bands. But, you know, if you like the Walkman, you're probably between, like, the ages of, like, 35 and 50. And you're like, you're one of those guys I know in real life that, like, kind of stops reading pitchfork in college. So, I mean, they're a good band. You kind of had to be there. Every era has been. these types of bands. I'm not sure who they are just yet. But, you know, I like Lisbon. I think you and me is a good record. Um, but, you know, there's something about them going away from like

rock stuff, which is on the one hand understandable and predictable. But we all, I just want to see more bands get nastier and like more pissy as they get old. I think Cloud Nothings were like the one example of that. So, um, but yeah, I think they're a good band. Do I need to see them live? I mean, as long as they got the drummer. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, I, I think I agree with you about them being accurately rated. Um, there is an inclination to say that they're underrated just because they aren't talked about as much as a lot of bands from that era. But at the same time, like, I understand why they're not. And I understand why they weren't more successful. I actually think that they had a really nice career. They put out several records that for the people who

love them, they really love them. And, And that's more than most bands do. So I think that they should feel all the pride in the world over the fact that there's any demand at all for them to have a reunion. And I think a lot of these shows are sold out. Hopefully they'll play more. I have no idea if they have any interest in making another record. Yeah, the only thing I would say with them is that I think that they're accurately rated. The rad is their best song.

I wouldn't disagree with that. But, you know, give those later records a chance. You know, Lisbon in particular, I think, has a lot of just beautiful songs on it that, are maybe a little under-listen to. So definitely check that record out. Stranded, stranded's the one. Stranded, blue is your blood as a song I love a lot. There's some rockers on there too.

Like, woes me, a rocker, you know? But again, the rat, just like some bands that they make such a perfect song that kind of ruins them in a way. You know, I'm trying to think of other examples of that. But, and I'm sure I'll think of a bunch after this show ends, but it's like a curse. It's got you where I want you.

Yeah, or The Rapture, you know, House of Jealous Lovers, you know, like where you nail what you do so well that it's like, why even make another song? You know, because everything else you're going to do pales in comparison to that. Let's get to our next letter, and this comes from Michael and Boston, and I'll read this one. Hey, Steve and Ian, big fan of the show. I wanted to get your thoughts about Jason Molina and Soms, Ohio. Magnolia Electric Company just turned 20 about a month ago, and I've been sort of surprised about how little discussion there's been

about the album and Molina's career and influence. I really liked your discussion last week about Wednesday and capturing a sense of place. For me, Molina's music is inseparable from the southern Midwest, sort of the intersection of Heartland Rock and Southern Rock. I actually first discovered him by listening to JM by Strand of Oaks. Shout out to Tim. You can definitely hear his influence on that.

band, but I wanted to get y'all's opinion about Molina and his impact more broadly on the realm of Indy. Again, that's from Michael in Boston. Good question. Jason Molina. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Another yea or nay question. Yeah. Michael and Boston dropping yalls. I like that. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, the, the southern Midwest, that's Kentucky. I mean, I don't know if you've ever, I imagine you've driven through Indiana. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, that is a boy. Yeah, there is a lot of nothing on that drive to Chicago. Let me tell you. Yeah, it is like the empty heart of America, Indiana. It is a, it's a fascinating place. I mean, a lot of, like, famous musicians are from Indiana. You know, Michael Jackson, Axel Rose. John Mellencamp.

I think he's from Indiana. Yeah, I think he's sung about that about a million times. and it's always people, I guess, other than Melloncamp, it's a lot of people who kind of go off and become these outrageous figures because Indiana really is a place that, like, I think a lot of people feel compelled to escape. Unless you're like Molina or Mellon Camp, where you become, you know, sort of, like you personify the place.

Yeah, I think that kind of gets into what we were talking about with how a lot of indie music nowadays doesn't have a same sense of geography. And, you know, I think with, you know, when Jason Molina died and also like the 20th anniversary of Magnolia Electric Company, you know, a friend of the pod, Jay, who does the listen up nerds substack. He wrote about that. And he's from Indiana. And it's just like, with Jason Molina, I'm going to be honest, like back in his heyday, I probably got him confused with Mark Kozlik, you know, this like, these Midwestern guys make an 80-minute album. of like really sad, classic rock, heartland style music. And, you know, it didn't strike me as something I'd want to hear. And then once I did discover them, I was really happy. I didn't have that stuff in my life in 2003. Like, God knows I didn't need, like, more music about being extremely depressed.

But, yeah, I think that, like, not being from the Midwest has continued to be this kind of hurdle for me to like truly embrace what he does. And also like it is like very classic rock sounding. It's not like, you know, there's like classic rock influence stuff, but also like pretty acoustic numbers. I mean, this is just like Midwest Rust Belt music about wondering if you're ever going to get the fuck out of here. Yeah, you know, Molina is someone that I've always appreciated and I like a lot of his records, not just. as songs Ohio, but also what that band became, which was called Magnolia Electric Company.

There's a live album called Trials and Errors that I remember listening to on long drives through the Midwest. That album means a lot to me, along with the Magnolia Electric Company record. He's interesting to me as a influence because I think a lot of times with indie music,

If you hear something with a particular guitar sound, it gets linked to Neil Young and Crazy Horse. There is a very distinct Neil Young and Crazy Horse guitar sound that a lot of bands emulate. And I think that there's a good number of those bands that are actually influenced by Jason Molina. Because Jason Molina was among the first people to really take that, like, Tonight's the Night type aesthetic and apply it to like Americana. all country type songwriting of like the 90s and early 2000s. And that's just like a great aesthetic that a lot of people have glommed on to. And, you know, the most obvious recent example for me is M.J. Lenderman, who with his last album, both songs, he was pretty transparent about being like a Jason

Molina acolyte. And you can hear that influence on a song like, Taste Just Like It Cost. I mean, that is like a straightforward, I think, Jason Molina homage. The difference with Lenderman is that he has a more, I think, overt sense of humor that leavens the songwriting that Molina doesn't necessarily have, at least like not as, again, overtly as Lenderman does. My thing with Molina is that, again, I love his aesthetic. I do think that on his albums, which, as you said, they tend to be super long.

You know, he's filling out the CD, song after song after song. You know, he has like a fairly limited palette where it's a lot of mid-tempo dirges. You know, his voice isn't very dynamic, so he's kind of in a narrow range. And over the course of an album, it can get a little exhausting. Like, the songs can feel a little samey after a while. So that would be my criticism maybe of his records. But, you know, you get a song like Farewell Transmission, and it's like in, possible to deny.

I mean, there is a drama to that. That is very compelling. He recorded live in the studio. I think that was an example of his band not really knowing the song, like when he started playing it. So there is a real sort of... Jason Isbell sort of thing, yeah.

Very kind of live wire thing going on with that song. That's very exciting. I think there's a similar thing on trials and errors, the record I mentioned earlier, where you feel like Molina's on the edge, of something. And he might tip over into the bad kind of darkness rather than the sort of artistically redeeming darkness that you get throughout the rest of the record.

So yeah, I mean, he's great and I think he's more influential than he probably gets credit for. Because I think there are a lot of young singer-songwriters who get likened to Neil Young when they're actually Jason Molina people. You know, so it's almost like being influenced by Neil Young's second hand through Jason Molina. Yeah, I think that like an artist like Jason Molina's like influence nowadays, like might manifest more in like metal or like other kind of dronier rock music.

I think Cloak Room and other Indiana band is a great example of that. They're pretty overt about their, you know, Jason Molina worship. But yeah, I mean, if you're hearing like metal bands that kind of integrate those like seven minute songs like baritone guitar. Yeah, there's some Jason Molina in there. And yeah, I think that he's definitely an icon. Do I, you know, love listening to his music all the time? Well, no, I'm not driving through the Midwest anymore. But yeah, just be simple, like incredible fucking song. And it's just a strange thing to revisit his music, knowing how his life ended. It doesn't provide any sort of romance or like, you know, justification in the way that, like, people talk about,

like, Elliot Smith or Kurt Cobain, how their deaths, like, kind of emboldened the music in a way. It's like, this is just sad music of a sad guy who met, like, a pretty sad end. And, you know, if that's what you're going for, then it's really hard to, you know, come up with something that more suits that bill than that. We've now reached the part of the episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So I'm going to pivot a little bit from a conversation that we had kind of in our DMs recently. I got a word of this album from a band called Bruiser and Bicycle.

They are a Albany band on Top Shelf Records. And it was described to me as kind of doing a animal collective or stereo lab or fiery, furnace sort of thing, which, you know, I've talked on this show about fiery furnaces, but nonetheless, Animal Collective, Yolotango, Band on Top Shelf, this is obviously going to be my shit. And I was not super into it their new album, Holy Red Wagon when I first heard it, until I realized, wait a minute, I'm listening to this album all the time in traffic jams on the way home. This is not at all the way I'm supposed to be listening to this record.

And so as soon as, like, the weather got kind of nice, I tried it out again. And kind of similar to the animal collective albums in like the early 2000s, like, you know, arc, which it's now called, or sung tongs. This album is like wholly dependent on the weather, and I really enjoy what it's doing. In the same way that other top shelf bands like Knife Play, they kind of take from shoegaze and slowcore and make it something that sounds really modern and new, paranormal as well. Bruiser and Bicycle, they do that with a lot of what could be kind of described as pitchfork core in 2005, not just Animal Collected, but there's some Sufyan in there,

some Anathalo, if we're going to throw some things, if we're going to, you know, remember some guys. So, yeah, if any of those things sound compelling to you, I think that this is like where you need to go in 2023. So my recommendation is out of purely self-interest this week. want to plug a big feature that I have that went up today on Uprocks. I wrote a long column about Metallica writing about my 40 favorite Metallica songs, and this is in conjunction with a new Metallica album that came out today called 72 seasons that I think we're going to talk about next week, along with maybe Metallica in general. I had a lot of fun writing this column. It

actually reminded me how much I love Metallica and how I think, especially their 80s work, is like, it holds up as well as any rock music, I think, from that of that time. But they're also just a super fun band to write about. There is a lot of material that this band gives you, a lot of highs, a lot of lows. And I have to say, you know, I write these kind of columns a lot. And normally, by the end, I'm burned out on the band I'm writing about because I've just immersed myself for a long time in their music. This is the first time in a while where I actually still wanted to listen to the band

after I was done writing my piece. So even if you're not a Metallica fan, I think you'll enjoy this story. They are a very colorful band. Like I said before, I watched some kind of monster. Again, recently, I rewatched it. That's a great film. But, you know, there's so many other nooks and crannies in this band's history that I think are very fun to hash out.

So definitely check that out. And I think we're going to talk about Metallica next week. So I'm looking forward to that. Mandatory minimum Metallica. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indicast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mixedape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie.

And I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.