Indiecast - The 'Meet Me In The Bathroom' Documentary + Phoenix's 'Alpha Zulu'

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

New York City in the early aughts became a hotbed for indie artists when bands like The Strokes, Interpol, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and more suddenly ignited a new era of indie rock. On this week's Indiecast episode, hosts Steven Hyden and Ian Cohen revisit that nostalgia-inducing era by sharing their thoughts on the new Meet Me In The Bathroom documentary, which uncovers footage from the '00s NYC music scene (26:18). Plus, they review a new album by another early aughts band, Phoenix, who just dropped their first LP in five years, Alpha Zulu (49:23). When it comes to music news this week, the biggest story comes from... Taco Bell? The fast food chain tapped Turnstile to use one of their songs in a commercial, prompting Steven and Ian to wonder if Taco Bell handing out cash to indie bands can mend the touring industry (8:52). Plus, Indiecast talks Elon Musk's Twitter takeover and whether or not they'll decide to shell out $8 a month to keep their verification (:25). In this week's Recommendation Corner (59:51), Ian shouts out the Canadian band Arm’s Length and their new album Never Before Seen, Never Again Found, which hearkens back to peak 2013-era Tumblr. Meanwhile, Steven recommends Bob Dylan’s Philosophy Of Modern Song, which is the musician's first book of new writing since 2004.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 113 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. On this show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we review the new Meet Me in the Bathroom documentary and a new album by Phoenix. My name is Stephen Haydn and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. I wonder if he's going to pay $8 to keep his blue check. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? The haters and losers have said that you could not put a price tag on the Ian Cohen Twitter experience, but, you know, as it turns out, it's $8, which is down from 20. I mean, like, I think that was the kind of bait and switch that, like, makes $8 seem reasonable, because the first thing that I heard was that it was going to cost, like, $20 a month to keep your blue check, and I'm like, yeah, fuck no, I'm not, like, paying $20 for anything. But now, like, $8, I mean, it sounds kind of reasonable if only because I want to, like, Airbnb my account to like, you know, pay 10 bucks. You can rank proto-marter albums. You know,

have a blast. So you are, you're giving Elon credit here for being a mastermind of business, setting up an expectation that you're going to have to pay $20 instead of, and then he presents $8 is going to be the fee. And that's going to make people forget that it currently costs $0 to be verified. For those who don't know, I feel like we need to fill in the background here, because not everyone is as Twitter poisoned as you and I are. That Elon Musk, the real-life Bond villain, one of the richest men in the world, he bought Twitter last week for $44 billion. And he has floated out the idea of charging people to be verified, which means that if you have a blue check next to your name. In the past, that meant that

you're supposedly a person of consequence and that we have to make sure that we verify who you are because there might be impostors out there. People, you know, imitating you. There's people out there like imitating Ian. There are. There really were at one point.

Are there Ian Cohen impersonators? I mean, I think there was. I definitely think there was like an if not an Ian Cohen parody account, but like just something that like maybe more or less like repackage my reviews or something like that. So I was going to ask if this person was a chaos agent and saying things like, well, the new Wild Pink album is pretty mid.

Yeah. You know, or, you know, Black Country New Road, that album is trash. You know, just doing the opposite of your opinion. You can definitely find those opinions on a certain mainstream account,

but neither here nor there. So, you know, we can laugh about it. this. I have to say, though, that on balance, Twitter has been good for me professionally. I am on Twitter because of my job. I've been on the site for the past 12 years. I've made a lot of connections, done a lot of marketing and of my work, and networking with other people in the biz, which has been helpful to me because I live in the middle of the country. There are no music writers around me

without the bird account. I would not have access to the music industry in the way that I have in the last dozen years. So I am appreciative of the site. I feel a slight twinge of anxiety about the Elon Musk era because on one hand, if you pay to be verified, I feel like that's putting a big sign on your back that says big fat loser. at this point. You don't really want to admit that you're giving Elon Musk money to say that you are a person of like minor consequence. It just feels humiliating to do that. But on the other hand, I can't completely rule it out because maybe that's going to help me market my shit when I need to market it. And maybe it'll be harder to do if I don't have the checkmark. Have you noticed,

like, have you been bleeding followers since Musk bought the site? Or is this just me? I've lost like a net. I've lost like 150 followers or something like that. Which hasn't happened to this degree since Trump was elected. Like when Trump was elected in 2016, a lot of people, I think, got off a social media. And then they probably got on later. So I don't know if this is people just bolting or if it's bots or what, but I'm bleeding here. Ian, I'm bleeding to death at the moment. Yeah, and I swear to God what I'm about to say is true, is that once my Twitter following went to, you know, like, four digits where it said like 2K instead of like 986 or whatever,

I had no idea this check. I had no idea how to find out like how many followers I actually have. But I did see that like mine was like constantly shifting from like 0.7 to 0.6. And then I finally looked at it. wait a minute, what have I done to lose 150 followers in the past two days? Like, I thought I'm like, damn, I'm like really putting out some hot takes that, like, people, if that's really moving the needle. But you're probably right.

It's probably bots. It's probably some sort of administrative type thing. And, you know, like, you know, I think it's sort of a, I don't know, like a metaphor for what I anticipate with the Elon Musk Twitter era, which is that it's going to seem like this major. see change in the same way that like, I don't know, I think people right now have this like optimism. Like, I hate to use the word optimism, but I think about it along the way it lines that like people thought about like, you know, when Trump got elected or when like COVID happened in the music industry that like this is so profoundly shitty that like nothing can ever be the same again. But it's probably not going to be the extinction level event that will, you know, absolve people from having to think about whether to quit or not. It's just going to be like slightly shittier and like weirder, but like back to normal

in faster than anyone could possibly anticipate. So it's, yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I did see someone share an article about how Rupert Murdoch in the mid-2000s bought MySpace and then MySpace was pretty much done after that. I don't know if that's because of Rupert Murdoch or because Facebook was coming down the pike and that is what put MySpace out of commission. but I think the idea was to liken Elon Musk buying Twitter to Rupert Murdoch buying MySpace. I don't know if that has the effect.

The funniest thing I've seen this week is people, and these are mainly like political pundits and they're mainly on the left who say, I'm going to keep posting here until Elon kicks me off. Like their takes on politics are so dangerous. but Elon Musk is just he has like a red button and his fingers lingering over it and he's like don't tweet if you tweet one more take you're gone

it's like come on I wouldn't put it I would not put it past him I would not put it past him though who gives a shit though like why would he care about that just seems so insanely grandiose to me like when people presume that anyone cares about their bullshit

as much as they care about themselves like we're all narcissists That's why we're on this platform. We all like to hear ourselves talk. We all like to be complimented when we have a mildly interesting thought that we've posted. And then it instantly goes out of people's minds. Like we're all just obsessed with ourselves. So I don't see that happening.

I don't think that there's any take out there that's so dangerous that Elon Musk is going to press the red button and delete you. Having said that, maybe Elon Musk. is listening to this podcast right now and he's upset about one of our takes maybe he was upset I don't know what have we ripped lately

that Elon Musk might like I guess we weren't nice to the Grimes Well no I mean maybe if we weren't nice to Grimes You would appreciate that now Are they still together? I don't remember They have a kid together But he has a kid together But he has like 25 kids

Him and Herschel Walker He's a nut Yeah he's insane Before we get to the mailbag, I feel like we have to talk quick about punk rock ethics. One of my favorite topics in the world. If there's nothing I like talking about more than punk rock ethics, there was a story this week. Was it this week or last week? I think this has been rolling out this month where there's a Taco Bell commercial with a turnstile song.

Holiday, yes. Yes. And I'll ask you this because you keep closer tabs on it than I do. You are the punk rock ethics correspondent for Indycast. Are there like jokers out there who are upset about this? Are there people complaining about this? Or is this something where it turns into a topic because people invent someone who is mad about this? I think with turnstile, like,

they've been you know kind of dabbling in sounds like 311 and rage against the machine for so long that like nobody has any illusions that they're supposed to be like minor threat or whatever like I think that it's just another sort of situation like you were saying where people

invent the turn like look turnstile haters do exist but they're so minimal it's sort of like you know people getting mad about like billy ish wearing a certain type of dress it's more it's more like hey cool turnstile is the only rock band that exists right now, which hell, good for them.

But, you know, like, and I also think the fact that it's like Taco Bell, like, you know, people, people love Taco Bell. Taco Bell's had its hands. They've had, they've had their hands in the music scene for a while. But, you know, what I'm wondering is, you know, the fact that, like, Turnstile is doing a Taco Bell ad now and, you know, opening for Blink 182 and playing, like, being the token rock band on, like, festivals that don't really deal with rock. I'm, like, wondering, like, can turnstile actually get, like, even bigger than they currently are?

Is, like, Brendan Yates going to be, like, this Kevin Parker type dude that, like, rappers bring on their song to, like, give some veneer of, like, indie cred? I'm just wondering if they've actually reached their ceiling or if there's, you know, more to be explored in the Turnstile Extended Universe. I think they could get bigger. I guess I don't know, like, what the appropriate level of big is before we call them big. is it when they headline arenas? Is that the, or when they have a number one album or something? Getting back to the Taco Bell issue,

I do think the fact that it's Taco Bell, not just because Taco Bell has funded other artists in the past. Taco Bell socialism is a real thing. Taco Bell handing out money to bands. This might be the solution to the problem we've talked about on the show about bands on the road. finding it difficult to tour, not only will Taco Bell feed you on the road

with their delicious food from drive-thrus, but maybe Taco Bell is the answer in terms of giving gobs of cash to bands to offset the tremendous cost of being on the road. I think that's a good thing. And yeah, you're right. I mean, even if you set aside the history of Taco Bell socialism, Which is a very real thing.

I think we have to be very clear. It is a real thing. Feed the beat has been happening since 2006. Bands getting like 500, they get like 500 bucks or something along those. Yeah. It's very real. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm being somewhat facetious here with the term Taco Bell socialism, but that's what it is.

And you don't see a lot of other people stepping up to hand bands cash in this day and age. But even if you set all that aside, I mean, it's not like turns out. is doing commercials for like Cardier watches or something. I mean, I feel like the audience that likes turnstile, and I'll include myself in this, also likes Taco Bell. I mean, let's not turn our noses up at Taco Bell. If you go to Turnstile, see them live, and you're in the pit, what's better on the drive home than stopping at the drive-thru?

And, you know, getting some Taco Bell, getting some gorditas. Yeah. Eat the Taco Bell after the Turnstile show. I think we have to be very clear that like this is a... Not on the way. This is a band with a history of someone taking an actual shit in the mosh pit. Yeah.

Which, you know, by the way, you want to talk about living moss. That's how you live moss is taking a shit in the... In the mosh pit. We should probably go to mailbag after that. I'm willing to discuss taking... If we're really going to talk about punk rock ethics, it's like whether, you know, taking a shit in turnstile mosh pit is

okay or not. Well, we should maybe table that for later this. That's a whole episode. It's going to get a little, yeah, it's going to get a little thin here heading toward the holiday, so we may have to have like the punk rock ethicist slash shitting in the Mosh Pit episode. It's just earmarked that for a standalone episode. By the way, I realized recently that we never did the second law anniversary episode

that we've promised for a year. We might have to do that this month. We've let our people down. Yeah, we might have to at least bring that up at some. point. Although no one complained about it. I had to like remember this myself. So I don't, there's probably no demand for it. But I still feel as a professional podcaster, the duty to live up to express promises on the show. So maybe we'll get to that later this month. Let's get to our mailbag here. Thank you all for writing in. Always great to hear from our listeners. Please hit us up at Indycastmailbag

at gmail.com. We might have to do an all mailbag episode too coming up. I'm loving that. Oh, wait, that's a McDonald's phrase, not Taco Bell. Although McDonald's, if you do want to sponsor Indiecast, I've been eating your McFlurries for years and years and years despite the fact that your machines never fucking work. You know what I had for the first time in years the other day? A Big Mac.

Fucking quality. It was pretty good. I liked it. I'm usually a quarter pound to a cheese guy. Or maybe a filet of fish if I feel like eating healthy at McDonald's. Anyway, you want to read our letter? Yeah, we'll put a pause on fast food cast. We're diversifying our bonds here in the 2022.

Hey, Stephen and Ian. Me and my wife just returned from the second weekend of the When We Were Young Fest in Las Vegas. We were both in middle and high school during the early 2000s, and so we're square in the demographic for this. We've been to other big festivals before, and we both agreed that WWWY was probably the most fun festival we've attended, both for us. and it also seemed like for the bands involved. It was a perfect mix of bands with deep catalogs like Ian's favorite Jimmy World, playing shorter sets that left us wanting more, and pure nostalgia acts playing five to seven songs sets

that were just enough to not overstay their welcome. So my question for you guys is, do you think festivals like when we were young that are built around a certain theme might be the path that more big festivals take going forward? Could a festival like Bonnaroo get back to its jam roots? Could there be a version of WWWY that combines all the Meet Me and the bathroom

error bands with newer acts that draw from that sound. Seems like those lineups would be a lot more fun than the virtually identical lineups most big festivals have become in the last few years. Thanks for all you do. Kyler, KCMO. So that sounds pretty awesome. I wasn't aware that they had bands doing just like five song sets. Like if you're a band and you only have a couple hits,

you're just going to go out and play your hits and then you're done. That sounds amazing. Yeah, I'm with that. I mean, I think that's, yeah, I didn't know that was the case from when we were young. But, you know, I'm sure if I, like, look back at, like, you know, the bottom half of the festival poster where it's like, oh, I vaguely remember that from MySpace. It's like, yeah, you'll get paid a shitload of money. You play five songs, you're done. You can explore Las Vegas for the rest of the weekend.

I can't see how a band. It's funny because, like, when we talk about punk rock ethics, I feel like bands who are playing, like, when we were young, are so much more. to do that than like an indie rock band from like 2008 who might get put on a similar nostalgia package. They might think they're above that. Yeah. Yeah, it reminds me of when I worked at a daily newspaper many years ago and I would interview musicians from the 80s that played in bands like Warrant and Poison and they were always great to interview because they had a real sense of who they were and they had no delusions about their career and they were great for. And they were grateful to be on the road and they're like, yeah, you know, we're going to play our hits.

We want to make people happy. And there is that thing in indie rock where you're like a little too cool to do that, even if you are in middle age and past your moment a little bit. You have more experience with Coachella than I do. And I have no first hand experience with Coachella. But my impression of those big festivals is that music isn't necessarily like the main attraction. Not that it's irrelevant, but you know, you see a lot of times tickets go on sale at those festivals before a full lineup is even announced. Like, you might know the headliners,

but usually you don't know the majority of the acts that are going to be on the bill. And those festivals sell out anyway because people go as a social experience. Like they're going with their friends. It's going to be a fun place to hang out. They're going to see music, but the music's going to be in the background. And it seems like especially at Coachella, you know, they have all these amenities and you can enjoy the amenities as much as the music. Maybe if there's like a gap in the day where you don't like any of the bands, you can go go to the spa or something or eat the food and it doesn't really matter. So I don't see those festivals changing. I do see more festivals like when we were young being a thing because you have this generation.

of millennials now, you know, just a huge number of people, just like the boomers, you know, like there were huge numbers of boomers. There's now huge numbers of millennials who are approaching 40, if not in their 40s already. So there's going to be this big nostalgia market. I could see a Meet Me in the Bathroom style tour. Are we too early yet for like a blog rock tour? Like we're, like if someone just threw a ton of money at Vampire Weekend who like they don't need to play a festival like this, but let's say someone just threw a ton of money at them. So they're going to be the headliner. And then, like, the lower half of the bill is, like, clap your hand and say, yeah, black kids,

Cold War kids, all those blog rock bands. I could see a tour like that happening. I wonder if there will be, I could see a festival like that happening, but I wonder if there'll be a model, like the old Lollapalooza where you have festivals that also tour, you know, so you. You have when we were young, but that's going to be a tour that plays however many major cities. In other words, the Warp Tour. Like, that's what you're basically describing the Warp Tour. Or Oz Fest, you know.

But there's not really a tour like that currently running, right? Because Warp Tour isn't happening anymore. No, thank God. I mean, I wouldn't put it past Warp Tour to come back. Like, once, you know, all the terrible, terrible shit that came to define it towards the end. is forgotten. But, you know, I think that the reason, and you brought, you know, you kind of alluded to this point with when we were young is that similar to Coachella, it's like a destination.

You know, when it got canceled the first day because of high winds, people like, well, we're still in Las Vegas. That's pretty cool. So, you know, that wouldn't, it wouldn't be quite the same experience if it was in, you know, I'm not like laying it on thick for Wisconsin, like Sheboygan or whatever, whatever, whatever city that, you know, Warptor would come through when it was... Good rough.

Absolutely. So... Warped Tour would just play Milwaukee or Madison. Okay, gotcha. Maybe Green Bay. Mainly the big cities in this country. Oshkosh, perhaps. No, even Oshkosh.

Like, too small. Yeah, Warp Tour's got a, you know, I mean, look, when it came to San Diego, still sold out. I mean, but then again, San Diego is an extremely warped tour type of city. But wasn't there going to be a bit...

I mean, there will be a... tour, I'm sure at some point it'll be a touring festival. Maybe it's not called Wharp Tour, but it's like Vans, you know, something tour. And it's going to be like simple plan, some 41, you know, all of those like pop punk bands from the early 2000s. That's going to be a tour, I'm sure, within the next few years. Well, I mean, that you're basically describing the lineup from when we were young, 2023, which has been announced. And, you know, I do think that festivals of this nature, which, you know, I do think that festivals of this nature, which have like kind of a theme and a destination or more of the future as opposed to like, you know,

the 2014-15 model where you book Mac to Marco, Future Islands, run the jewels and chance the rapper and like fill out the rest because there is already like kind of a quasi-east coast when we were young announced called the adjacent festival and it's in Atlantic City. So I mean, I think people can mobilize dollars for that. As far as like can we do a blog rock weekend, like you were to start. described with like vampire weekend holding down the headliner and like you know cold war kids and black kids that already sort of happened with uh just like heaven in 2019 but like i think that there's a very very very very salient point to bring up with regards to the viability of a festival

like that i was told that with the original just like heaven and this was also somewhat true of when we were young like when when we were young that festival was announced with bands before any of the bands actually signed on and like through some industry mechanics bands figured out oh yeah we should do this i think with just like heaven some of the bands weren't aware of like who else was on the lineup and like totally wouldn't have played if they had known it was like primarily a 2009 pitchfork nostalgia thing um you know i don't think vampire weekend would play a festival like that uh probably not probably not them but i think you know, again, we're talking about the difficulties of touring.

I haven't seen any reporting on this, but I feel like these festivals becoming tours is going to become a thing again. Because it just seems like there's so many bands on the road now that can't really draw an audience on their own, but if they're packaged with like 10 other bands, or maybe it's a thing like where you have three or four headliners and then a revolving cast of supporting acts, like, as you hit different parts of the country.

But that just seems like smart business at this point. Because I know for me, and I suspect this is true of most people, because there's so many shows on the road right now, you're forced to be a little more selective, and you are more likely to go to the show that feels like an event. Like, I'm going to see Smashing Pumpkins and James Addiction tonight that this podcast posts. I don't know if I would see. those bands by themselves, but the fact that they're together, I think, entices me more to go see that. I mean, it's like a buyer's market right now.

I mean, there's just so much to go to that if it's a band that you like, but you feel like, oh, they'll be back again next year, there's this less compelling you to do that. But if there's like four or five bands that you want to see and you know that they're going to be playing meat-only sets, that's a pretty enticing thing. And I could see that becoming more of a trend. Yeah, I mean, this weekend I'm seeing the return of Dia Delos Deftones in San Diego, which has turnstile and deaf tones. And also, I think, like, you know, like they always do,

they have, like, Fantagram and, like, Freddie Gibbs and, you know, just some other bands that are somewhat in that ilk. But, yeah, I mean, this, like, I don't know if it's drawing people from, like, you know, far outside the city of San Diego. But, hell, yeah, I'm going to go see, I'm going to see, like, deaf tones. in turn silent. Then again, I'd also see that individually as well. Yeah. Well,

we'll see what happens. I don't know. I'm curious to see how this unfolds, but I think there's going to be something like that. I have not seen any reporting on that. I could be completely wrong. Maybe the logistics of doing that kind of tour is just too much at this point, but

I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of those big package tours coming back and becoming a thing. If there's a dollar to be made, believe me, that, like, Golden Boys and Live Nation are going to figure out a way to extract it from our, you know, cold hands. Let's get into the meat of our episode this week. As I said at the top, we're going to be talking about the new Phoenix album, which is called Alpha Zula. We'll be getting to that later in this episode. For now, we're going to be talking about a new documentary that is

being released in New York and L.A. today. It's going to be a one-night event in cinemas nationwide on Tuesday, November 8th, where you can see the Meet Me in the bathroom documentary. And Ian and I both saw a screener of this, so we are prepared to talk about it in this episode. But first a little background. Of course, this film is based on the book from 2017 by Lizzie Goodman. I think it's fair to say that this is the most celebrated rock book of the last five years, probably of the last decade. Not even the last five years. I can't remember the last one that really like was entertaining

like that kind of you can imagine someone outside like the circle of like music writers reading this. Yeah it's I mean in terms of like indie alternative rock it's the most significant book I think since the Michael Azarad book Arban could be alive. I think it's the most

significant book in this world since this isn't happening or long road I mean come come on see how can you drop the ball on this one. Well, this isn't happening came out after because Lizzie Goodman very generously blurbed that book. So thank you, Lizzie, if you're listening.

You know, look, I appreciate you saying that. But, you know, we have to report the truth here. I think me in the bathroom, very celebrated book, so celebrated that it's now a documentary, directed by Dylan Southern and Will Lovelace, who you may know from their previous documentary or one of their previous documentaries. up and play the hits, which I guess in a way you could call Meet Me in the Bathroom,

the prequel to that film. I'm curious for your thoughts on this film. As you said, you read the book, I read the book. The film, as you would expect, is a more streamlined version of the book. I think in some positive ways, like if I would have criticized the book, like for me, it opens with a lot of information that feels superfluous about just the bar scene in New York. Like the first 60 pages I ended up skipping through,

just because I didn't really want to hear about... Jonathan Fire Eater playing. Well, not even Jonathan Fire Eater, but like, you know, second and third tier scenesters doing Blow at the Star Bar. You know, like, I'm not that interested in that. Like, get me to Julian Casablancus and Caranoe and Carlos D and all those people.

so you don't really get a whole lot of that in the movie but of course this film is like an hour and 45 minutes so there's a lot that also gets left out that people might be missing what did you think about this movie overall I have to say that I found the movie very entertaining I think if you have any interest in this period

you're going to enjoy the film there are flaws to the movie but the footage that you see of these bands in their sort of embryonic state is pretty great. And I've never seen any of this footage really before. So I think just on an entertainment level, the film delivers, what did you think? I mean, did you enjoy the movie?

Well, I'll just tell you right now that I would rather read like 500 pages about like Northern Soul Night at the Star Bar than hear like another fucking minute of moldy peaches music. Like, I mean, right off the back, right off the back, right off the, the bat they lead with a like someone reading a fucking Walt Whitman poem about Manhattan over like you know

montage of the city and all of its dynamicism and then you meet the moldy beaches which anti-folk I think is like maybe quite possibly like the single worst movement at least from my taste like I think if you were to like create if you were to externalize

like everything I dislike about music like whether it's just like fake Twee, like New York City boosterism, it's there. That being said, I'm sure they're nice people. Yeah, there's a lot of moldy peaches in this movie at the beginning. And it is a thing where if you go into this movie cold and you've just been told, oh yeah, there were all these cool bands in New York City in the early 2000s.

And then you see the moldy peaches. You might be like, what the fuck is this? I thought these were cool people. And now we're just, this is like the most irritating band. in the world. But yeah, they do eventually move on from the Walt Whitman

and moldy peaches. You can say in New York City is the biggest character of this. But, yeah. The city that never sleeps? Yeah, the city that never sleeps. This is where things...

The biggest apple. They call it the huge orange, I think, right? Is that what they call New York? The windy apple. Something like that. Yeah. So, you know, like,

I'm trying to imagine, like, for whom this movie exists like aside if you've if you've read the book you kind of know the stories about like you know how the strokes meet up and like you know their privileged background and they become insanely famous in you know england before they even release songs in america so that part's all pretty well established um and i think that like you've nailed it where this exists this film exists solely, like exclusively for the, like, the shot. It's very shocking, given, like, when this stuff was filmed, that they have this much

footage of, say, Paul Banks playing an acoustic song at an open night mic, and it kind of sounds like an Interpol song, or like, you see the strokes looking like they're 20, or Karen O, just, like, kind of hanging out in T-shirts and jeans, and, uh, I mean, this stuff is just like really fascinating to see because like I think the last thing we need is you know more New York City boosterism of that era. I mean I think that's kind of the most obnoxious part of the book you know aside from like towards the end where they talk about like how bands like Vampire Weekend and MGMT they don't party enough. Um fortunately the documentary doesn't, uh, you know, harp on that very much. But yeah, I mean, I think that this, this movie like,

It's similar to a lot of documentaries I see about music on Netflix and Hulu and so forth, where it either needed to be like an hour or like five hours, you know? Yeah. Because as it is, it just kind of condenses things to, you know, LCD sound system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bands that are super popular to begin with, they say that like TV on the radio and liars, they're seen as major players in this film, and you get maybe a combined minute of footage of them talking.

And it's like, fuck, I... Yeah, there's more about the rapture. San Diego icons. Yeah, like, you see more of the rapture than TV on the radio, which is sort of an odd thing, but that might have just been a matter of having the footage of the rapture. I think that's the big part of it. It's like, who do we have footage of?

Like, I think it'd feel like they have an ordinantly large amount of, like, Leszavi Fave or like black dice footage, they would have played a much bigger role. I mean, that's the challenge of a documentary. I mean, it is hard. It's trickier than just writing something because you can write anything you want, but when you are making a film, you are limited by certain things and by a time frame, and it does make you change your storytelling because of that. I'm going to echo what you said about this film either feeling too, I don't think it's

feels too long. It definitely doesn't feel too long for me. At times I was like, I wish this were on Netflix and it was four or five hours long. But at the same time, and this, I'm going to be contradicting myself, is, and I felt

this way about the book, too, that a lot of these bands don't have super compelling stories. Like, the yeah, yeah, yeah, is a great band, and Interpol, you know, I enjoy them. But I don't know if they have the type of stories that justify a book or a documentary or both things.

Like in the movie, it makes a big deal at one point about Carineau falling off a stage in Australia and that representing her reaching a breaking point on the road. And I'm sure that was traumatic and it was, you know, and I don't know if she was hurt from that or anything. But, you know, for a movie, it feels like a little like, okay, are we contriving drama here. A worse instance of that is they make a big deal about antics, the second Interpol record leaking on the internet,

and that representing sort of like a failure of their career arc. And it's just like, didn't every album leak in 2004? It just seems like, again, it's another instance of them making a drama because they need to hit certain story beats for this film. I don't know if you feel this way, because you don't like the story. as much as I do. Like, I'm a huge strokes fan.

You're probably more, like, you probably like the first two records and not as much the rest. I don't want to put words. No, that's exactly it. Okay. So, I love the strokes. I feel like the book, if you had taken the strokes out of that book, it would have fallen apart.

It would not have justified the length that it was. Whereas you could do a book just on the strokes, and it would be very interesting. I felt the same way about thing about this movie. I hope this movie doesn't preclude a strokes documentary because I was watching this and I was like, well, one thing, I think this movie makes Julian Casablanca is more sympathetic than he ever has been. Absolutely. You really do get the sense that even though he's this like really handsome, charismatic guy,

he seems profoundly uncomfortable in his own skin and very awkward and was probably ill-suited for being famous, even though he had all the tools to be famous. but that's the impression I get watching the film. I wanted more of that. I wanted more about Albert Hammond and Ryan Adams. Ryan Adams, by the way, one of the great villains in rock documentary history already. He is totally hateable in this movie.

One of the MVPs of this film, just because he's so much of a villainous figure, whereas Carlos D, maybe the hero of the movie, movie for me, because he's so ridiculous, such a great musician. I love seeing Carlos D. And I really like the Karen O parts in the film. I think she's clearly the most likable person in the movie. She seems very down to earth, and you also feel for her because she had to do with a lot of bullshit sexism in that scene. But other than that, I was like, I just want the strokes in this movie. And I kind of just want a strokes documentary. Am I wrong on that? I mean, again,

I hope that this doesn't preclude, like, the full-on strokes movie at some point. Yeah, you know, if you do take out the strokes, like, just like the story of the strokes from the book, the book does fall apart. But then again, you have to think about the fact that, like, the strokes were the band that kind of made everything after happening. You know, it's like they were the big bang of this New York scene. Even though if it was happening around them, you know, like the rapture says in the movie, it's like, yeah, we were. the disco strokes. And it just, even if, like, the strokes never became, like,

you know, they never sold as many records as, like, the killers, let's say. As far as, like, the industry goes, it really shifted things in a manner that, it's like on a much, much smaller level, like supposedly how Nirvana and Grunge killed hair metal.

Like, they do allude to this in the beginning where they set up the strokes against, like, footage of the MTV video awards were like Blink 182, the offspring and limp biscuit are winning awards. But yeah, I think that one of the flaws, perhaps, of this documentary trying to be more than just, hey, let's just show footage of like the strokes playing this tiny-ass club in New York is that none of these bands had particularly difficult arcs towards fame.

Like, you know, you see Interpol kind of struggling to make their way. But, you know, they had a pretty swift, you know, swift, you know, swift ups. uptake to becoming signed by Matador and selling out shows, same with Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yes. And none of these bands had really dramatic falls either. Like, I think the strokes are as popular as Julian Casablancus always wanted them to be in that they can make the weirdest music they want. And still, like, Headline Festivals, like Interpol is still chugging along. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, you know, they can release music whenever they want. You know, none of these bands had really dramatic rises or fall.

So there is kind of this invented, contrived, inventive narrative to, like, make you feel for them. I do think the Interpol antics leaking online thing is ridiculous, largely because, like, they put AOL on, like, America online footage along with that and dial up modems. Like, why are you using, like, 1998-style, like, internet stuff to talk about Napster? That's a little beside, right, but. Again, I don't know. I can forgive that just because how do you signify the internet in 2004? That might have been a difficult thing to do. I'm willing to forgive that.

I'm going to disagree with you a little bit about the strokes. I do think that their internal strife and how they imploded. Yeah, they've continued along, but I think everyone would probably agree that they didn't quite end up where people thought they would, especially in the 2000s. I think that story is really interesting. and I would have loved to see more about that. Again, maybe I'm alone in this,

but I would have wanted a deep dive into the making of room on fire and first impressions of the earth and even like angles, because Angles seems like that was Julian Casablancus checking out and like the rest of the band was writing, and it just seemed like it was a total mess. He looked so miserable during the making of Angles. Or no, sorry, not the making. The footage they show of him,

I think it's like the, 1251 video, whatever that sounds. He looks, I've like never seen something. This is like radiohead meeting people as easy, tight misery. Yeah, he, I don't know. Casablancus is interesting to me. And maybe the fact that he doesn't talk himself in the movie just makes him more fascinating because he's kind of an enigma.

I want to run something by you here because, you know, I was talking with a friend yesterday about this movie and she was saying that in her mind, LCD sound system doesn't belong in the context of the strokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, as an interpol. Which I think I agree with. They make sense geographically, you know, because they were a New York band, and they were, I guess, like, the next big indie thing that happened after that initial wave of bands. But I wonder, like, with this story, if it makes more sense to talk about the kill.

Because the killers, they don't make sense geographically. But they were the band. If we want to call them the Stone Temple pilots to the Strokes Pearl Jam, that's what they were. Only they ended up being bigger than the strokes. In a way, they were like the strokes who had their shit together. And like last night isn't nearly as big as Mr. Brightside ended up being. And I think that is the element that's missing. I think they talk about the killers

a bit in the book. They're not at all in the movie. And I feel like that is like the end of the story in a way. Because they're the ones who took that New York thing and they turned it into pop music. I just feel like not having them in here

yeah, you can't make it a New York story. But does this have to be as much of a New York story as it is? Can it just be more of like a rock story? Because then you could also talk about the white stripes. The white stripes are the other big missing piece here. And they are more in the book.

They're not at all in the film. They mention them once. It's like the strokes white stripes double like co-headliner at Music City. But like that's all you see. Because there are another, because like the white stripes ended up being bigger than the strokes. And Jack White ends up being, I think that they're. Close. Maybe not now.

maybe not now, but in 2000s they were. By the end of 2000s, they were now, like the strokes have that thing where they're like the millennial Rolling Stones. I mean, they just have that, like, where are the swaggering, grizzled rock band that has like a totemistic quality to them. And Jack White maybe doesn't have the same cachet as he did back then. But, you know, in that decade anyway, the White Stripes, I think, ended up being bigger.

and they were more acclaimed too in the moment. Does that make sense to you? I feel like those bands need to be in here, and you can't put them in because it's so New York-centric, but maybe it doesn't need to be, or maybe it shouldn't be so New York-centric. Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of the difficulty of this film where it's book-ended by that Walt Whitman poem,

so it's definitely a New York story. But also, I think where the book, Meet Me in the bathroom itself gets super interesting is when it gets, you know, the killers are in there, and Kings of Leon are in there as well. Because Kings of Leon play, like, they are like, oh, the Southern Strokes. Like, this is where we get into, like, you know, the candlebox, like, slash Stone Temple Pilots of it all.

Like, Kings of Leon, really interesting story as well, like, more so than the strokes. I mean, if you look at their background and such. But it's, I think, I don't know, maybe like the best and the sack. as part of this movie is that easily the most interesting part is when Ryan Adams comes in. Like, wow, what an asshole. Oh, yeah, he's awful. And it's like rock and roll era, Ryan Adams. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if I should say peak sleeves with Ryan Adams because it's probably all peak sleeves with Ryan Adams, no matter what error you're talking about. But, yeah, he's such a great villain. And how he's basically blamed. for the strokes falling apart. You know, because he's the one that allegedly gave Albert Hammond drugs and got him addicted.

You also have Courtney Love. Yes. Floating around here, too. I remember that MTV. Like, I love the MTV 2 footage of the $2 bill show and the 24 hours, like, the 24 hours, like, hanging out where, like, two of the guys in the strokes

is just, like, completely fucking booted on live TV. Yeah. And they're just, like, passing out. You know, in a bed, like, on stage, and while Courtney Love is, like, flashing her breasts at people in the street. Just super toxic situation. But, yeah, I don't know. I just feel like the ending of this movie,

it shouldn't be LCD sound system. It should be the killers doing Sam's Town and Kings of Leon doing sex on fire. Like, that should be the end. Because it should be, like, this is where it started, and this is where it ended up. know, because I think that to me is more of, it's like a larger story about that kind of rock music in the 2000s. I mean, you could also talk about the fact, and maybe this diminishes the movie

so you don't want to do it, but you could talk about the fact that like Lincoln Park in this era was like 10 times more popular than the strokes. And the reason why is because Lincoln Park appeal to little kids. Yeah. That is always the secret to, I think, any kind of pop music, but certainly rock bands, if you don't appeal to little kids, your audience is limited. You know, and I think the New York bands, it was a strictly 21 and over audience, like people that went to bars.

Yeah. Like the strokes and yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas hybrid theory that owned middle school. You know, and that's why they sold how many records? 10 million. That's like a real diamond-selling album. Yeah, in an era of like downloading. So like just think that there were probably, you know,

twice as many people listening to that or three times as many people, you know, who had that record then bought it. Who is going to make the Meet Me in the bathroom of the Lincoln Park sort of era? But then again, like you can't because I think the, you know, it's been very well established that like Lincoln Park were just like complete fucking nerds. Like they would spend hours upon hours in the studio, like trying to get the chorus of faint, right? Right, exactly. Yeah, a very clean cut band.

Yeah. Lincoln Park. So anyway, I think we both recommend this movie. Yeah, watch it. Yeah, it's a fun watch. It's going to be on Showtime by the end of the month. And I don't know if it'll be available to rent to, but I don't know, get a free trial of Showtime. If you don't have Showtime.

but yeah, definitely check it out. I think it's an entertaining movie. I would watch it again. It's very watchable. James Murphy with long hair, I mean, like, it's worth it for that alone. You get to see James Murphy as, like, a post-hardcore guitarist. Shit of all my dreams. Yeah, you get to hear James Murphy talking about how,

I didn't even mean to start a band. I didn't think I was going to start a band at all, and then I started a band, blah, blah, blah. You could tell that story again. Tim Goldsworthy thought I should. Tim Goldsworthy, like, one of the biggest assholes in meet me in the bathroom. and just the limited amount of time he gets in this movie.

It's like, you shouldn't release losing my edge. You're going to embarrass yourself. I know. That was an instance where I was like, okay, I feel good for James Murphy here. Good for you, but you put that out. Let's get to our next topic, and that topic is Alpha Zulu, the new album by Phoenix, the French Strokes, if you will, to link it to our previous subject.

This is their first album in seven... It's their seventh album and it's their first album in five years. I did a story on Phoenix this week. I interviewed Thomas and Laurent. Laurent, or Laurent?

I think it's Laurent. You know better than me, man. You actually talk to them. Yeah, but I didn't say their names. And they had very thick accents so I didn't understand everything that they said. I did a review your... own albums piece with them this week. And there were two things that I learned. One was that

Phoenix albums are really difficult to make, apparently. They used the word pain several times when describing, making various albums in their catalog, which you wouldn't necessarily think because it's such breezy, easy to listen to music, although at the same time, I can see them being perfectionist. I mean, their records are pretty sonically perfect for better or worse. The second thing I learned from this interview is that Phoenix is a really good band, really nice guys, very handsome. You know, they seem like they'd be a great hang. But unlike the bands that we just talked about, not especially interesting from like a documentary perspective.

I think you could argue I wouldn't argue this, but you could argue that Phoenix has a better catalog than the strokes, but I wouldn't want to see a documentary about Phoenix. If Sophia Coppola made it. Not even if Sophia made it. Again, they're very nice band.

They seem very stable. They've been friends since they were kids. They work hard. They make good records. But it doesn't seem like there's a ton of dramatic things happening with this band. this record this is another thing that was interesting about the interview

is that the guys they described this new record Alpha Zulu as being all over the map that they were putting songs together that didn't really fit, they feel like it's really eclectic and I can't imagine anyone outside of the band listening to this record and taking that away from it

I'm curious for your take on this I like this record overall I think but the thing about it is that it does feel like the guys in Phoenix were frozen in ember sometime around 2009 and like they haven't aged

like they all look the same like Thomas Mars, the lead singer looked exactly the same they sound pretty much the same I don't think they're doing it deliberately I think this is just who they are that song Tonight that they did with Ezra Kainig, very good single

it sounds like a song that could have been the third single on Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix after 1901 in Listermania. I could easily see, you know, instead of Ezra Kainig in 2022, Ezra Kaining in 2009, as he's making Contra stops by and makes this song with Phoenix. I wouldn't be surprised or I would be shocked if someone told me that this was in a vault for 13 years. What's your take on this band? Again, they're a good band. They're a nice band. This is a nice record. record, I have trouble saying anything else beyond that. I mean, you say they brought up the word pain a lot.

Maybe it's like pain, you know, which is the French word for bread. Maybe they were just like talking about bad dads or some shit. But yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned like that they were kind of seen as the French strokes or the soft rock strokes. It's funny. Like as a band that's like kind of frozen in Amber, they've actually evolved a lot in the 2000s. The first time I had heard them was if I ever feel better on fucking Erland Oye's DJ kicks. Like, that's a real, remembersome guys from 2004 moment. They were kind of this, like, smooth, like, French touch kind of quasi, like, post-daft punk pop band.

And then they kind of switched up their sound to do, you know, it's never been like that, the 2006 album, which I think is still their only, like, end-to-end great album. And then Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix, the one they blew up. And I think one of the most, you know, my memory of Phoenix is really, it really brings me back to 2013 Coachella. Like if we can bring it back not only to meet me in the bathroom, but Coachella. They actually headlined Coachella in 2013 when bankrupt had just come out. The headliners of that year were them, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, two years removed from like, I'm with you, which is like they're, while they acknowledge they're.

or worst album in the 21st century. And also, the Friday night headliner was Stone Roses, and they flopped so hard, they switched out with Blur, who flopped slightly less. But, you know, that was... I wrote a column about this for Grantland in 2013. Oh, shit. Let's remember some columns

here. Yeah, RIP Grantland. And yeah, you're totally right. Again, the moment, even, it felt like, oh, we're making Phoenix a festival headliner now? Is it just because it's like their turn or there's like nobody else on an album cycle that's also an indie rock band. Yeah. That's what it felt like in the moment.

Yeah. And it did seem like a breaking point for Coachella keeping that indie rock brand. It's like, what are we doing here if we're making Phoenix a headliner? This doesn't seem like it's good for us in the long run. And they, you know, it took them another year or so to like really switch things up. But, you know, like that was kind of to me a signal of like Phoenix being kind of a greatest hits type band. Like, similar to the strokes now, like, I mean, they're nowhere near as big as the strokes. I've never seen a Phoenix t-shirt. I've seen a ton of strokes t-shirts at festivals,

but they're like a rare band who can be consistently, not even just consistently good in that, you know, like a band like Woods, for example. Like, their albums like are of pretty similar quality, but like Phoenix releases albums that are pretty good and have like two or three amazing fucking songs. And they continue to do that. And I think Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix is also an album that is pretty uneven. Yeah, I would say that, like,

I just wonder about, like, the inspiration. Like, what is the artistic drive that leads to a Phoenix song, you know? Like, you kind of mentioned the fact that they are friends, they are, they've aged really well, they don't seem to have much interpersonal conflict, making music is hard.

And like, yeah, I get that. if like I was a guy in Phoenix, I would probably find it difficult to like source for my soul, the, I don't know, the anguish and pain that is required to make music. You know, like, and I think that just kind of reflects it. Their last two albums have been enjoyable, pretty low stakes. You know, if this were a different week, you know, like if this were, if this album had come out on October 14th or October 7th, we'd probably not be talking about it. but you know yeah it feels like that a little bit i mean you know again i don't want to lean too negative on

this because i do like phoenix overall yeah and it's never been like that i'm with you i think that's hands down their best record uh otherwise i would say uh most phoenix albums you have like two or three standout songs that seem like they're the obvious standouts and then the rest is really nice filler you know it's like doesn't grab you that much but like it's also very listenable. I'll say that this new record, I think the first half is particularly strong. The first track is the title song.

It's kind of like a wacky, like Rianna-inspired song. It's like an R&B type thing. Maybe they got two yards. Yeah, it just has like, I know, some of the vocal affectations sound like they were a little like Rihanna inspired.

It's a little weird coming from Phoenix. But the Ezra Kaney collaboration Tonight is a really great single. I think the next three or four songs after that are quite strong. But I think you're right. If they still put out greatest hits albums, like the Phoenix greatest hits would be lights out. And it would easily, you know,

overshadowed the rest of their catalog. They are a band that, even if you compare them to other French bands that have been prominent in the last 25 years, they're like the craftsmen they're not the ones who are they don't it's like I don't want to say this because I don't think it's true

I know this from talking to them I think they are perfectionists I think they're trying to make masterpieces because they do spend a lot of time working on their records but if you compare them to like M83 or deaf punk or air

I feel like all those groups have like an element of grandiosity that Phoenix does not have and they've never had and maybe that's a good thing, but it does make them feel like a nice, but maybe slightly inconsequential band. Yeah, I mean,

they're consequential in the sense that, like, oh, yeah, we probably got drunk at some party to 1901. You know, like AOC had that video where I think, I can't remember whether it was 1901 or Listomania, but she, like, did a dance video in college and, like, that was supposed to be, like, this big gotcha moment.

Yeah, I think that's, like, Phoenix is a, band who can be consequential in like not in and of itself but it's like oh yeah remember that night that we like drove around till 2 a.m. looking for a bar that was open to wolfgang amadeus phoenix yeah it's never just like i listened to i listened to alphabetical and my life was forever changed we've now reached the part of our episode that we call recommendation corner where i talk about something that we're into this week ian want you go first all right so um we We like the hotel year on this podcast, don't we? I like them.

You love them. Yes, that is very... We have reached a baseline level of like to love. And, you know, the thing about them is that they're probably never going to make another album again. So, Sutt's got to fill the void. And this album that I'm talking about this week, arm's length, never before seen, never again found. It came out last Friday.

Very young Canadian band that I think I... I talked about in 2021 when they released their EP. And this band, it's sort of like, imagine at home like no place is there. But instead of like being this traumatic, very gripping narrative about addiction and mental health, it's more like a stylish Netflix drama. And I mean that in a very positive way. This is a band that takes everything you can learn from like Tumblr era, emo revival slash pop punk whether we're talking about like early hotel year or early turnover or just

about anything from run for cover and they treat that like their Beatles and stones uh so it's like yeah we're going to make a classic album but it's like a classic album kind of similar to home like no place is there very very enjoyable highly dramatic highly extra poppy emo uh that not a lot of people are doing these days. Yeah, it's pretty much wheelhouse, but very few bands are doing it this well. So I'm very interested to see what happens with this band as far as their ceiling going forward.

Once again, arms length, very young band from Canada, never before seen, never again found. So on this show, I like to give a boost, if I can, to a young, up-and-coming music critic who I feel like is doing good work. And my favorite music critic at the moment is this kid named Bob Dylan. He's also from Minnesota, so I think I like him for that reason. But I've been reading his book this week.

It's called The Philosophy of Modern Song. Maybe you've heard about this book. It's bonkers. It's a crazy book. It's Bob. He's writing about 66 different songs from throughout music history. I think they're all from the 20th century. And, you know, if you read Bob,

previous book Chronicles that came on 2004. You know, that book was very well regarded. I think it still looked at as like one of the best memoirs ever written by a musician, even though after the fact people realized that he was really bullshitting a lot of the time in that book. And it seemed more normal than it actually was, I think. This book, the Philosophy of Modern Song, it just wears the craziness on its sleeve. The prose in this book, I'm reluctant to quote it directly because I feel like it'd be easy to take it the wrong way when it's taken out of context. And I've seen some reviews of this book that I think missed the point of this book.

There was one review. I think it was in the Los Angeles Times that complained that Bob didn't write enough about hip hop in this book or that there's not enough like sort of gender representation in the book. basically looking at it like it's a straightforward work of music criticism instead of the expressions of like just an 81 year old eccentric who is a genius and has a great sense of humor but it's just a total oddball and I love the book it's everything that I hope for there's a chapter on this bluegrass song by the Osborne brothers called Ruby Are You Mad where Bob compares bluegrass to heavy metal

and he actually types the word Invee Malmsteen which is unbelievable. It's a great book. I would just say even if you're not a fan of Bob Dylan check it out from the library open up to any page.

You're going to see a sentence that makes you laugh or makes you gasp or makes you scratch your head. It's just totally one of a kind. I love it. I just love opening it up and I'm kind of looking.

I'm enjoying it like a mixtape. I'm not reading it in order. I just like to go to different chapters. Each chapter is about three pages long. They're not connected. It's just mini essays on different songs. But it's a great read. I'm also reading the Quentin Tarantino book, Cinema Speculation,

where that's another instance of like a famous artist becoming a critic. And that book is also kind of bonkers in its way, but also very entertaining. I feel threatened by these books because these guys don't need to be critics. they're already multi-millionaires and they're coming, they're going to eat my lunch now too. It seems a little unfair, but at the same time,

they're both very entertaining books. So again, if you're a music fan, check out the Bob Dylan book, philosophy of Martin's song. At the very least, I promise that it's way more entertaining than most music writing that you read in this day and age.

But not long road. It's not more entertaining than long road. Thank you. Thank you, Ian. I appreciate you saying that. I think everyone was thinking it, but, I'm glad you said it out loud. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast.

We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to Uprocks.com backslash indie. And I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.