Indiecast - The National Return, Mac DeMarco Data Dumps, and Smashing Pumpkins Get Shiny

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

This week, Indiecast is talking about wily veterans. And that includes Aaron Rodgers, who is the topic of the emergency Sportscast segment at the top of the episode (1:30). Steven has some heavy feelings to work out about his quarterback for the past 15 years, and all Ian can do in response is trash the 2005 film Hustle & Flow. (It makes sense when you hear the episode.)With that out of the way, the guys get into the business of Indiecast by talking about First Two Pages Of Frankenstein, the new album by The National (14:14). Ian admits that he's lost interest in the band after loving them in the aughts, and this record hasn't really changed his mind. Steven meanwhile is still a believer, and thinks this album improves on the previous National record, I Am Easy To Find, though it's not a complete comeback.Next the guys turn to One Wayne G, the new 199-song data dump by Mac DeMarco (28:39). Did they listen to all eight hours? Not yet! Will they ever? Who knows? Steven and Ian try to figure out where Mac is at in his career. Is he quiet quitting a la Frank Ocean?Finally, they talk about Atum, the new rock opera by Smashing Pumpkins that is so sprawling it is not yet fully released (38:15). Steven and Ian contemplate the story of Shiny, the hero at the center of the album, and whether his tale is a metaphor for cancel culture. More importantly, why does this album sound so bad? Can they reconnect Billy Corgan with Flood?In Recommendation Corner (53:14), Ian talks up the DJ Avalon Emerson, while Steven stumps for the Nashville garage band Country Westerns.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 136 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's indie mixtape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we discuss new music from the national, Mac DeMarco, and Smashing Pumpkins. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He was just traded to the Jets for a bunch of draft picks. Ian Cohen.

Ian, how are you? I really wish we had kind of centered this joke around like another music podcast. you know like they trade me to endless scroll for like you know michael for a few weeks and maybe like a few uh patreon subscriptions or something like that or they're trading me to like the pitchfork podcast for i don't know like a best new mute bit like a best new reissue for a drive-by truckers album or something i think i would aim i would negotiate with the new york times people oh pop cast with popcast i'll trade you for caramanica and maybe like a couple of their uh you know young freelancers, you know, up-and-comers, bring them over here.

I think that could have been a good trade. I'm referring in my little joke, of course, to Aaron Rogers, my quarterback for 15 years, getting traded to the New York Jets. We're going to do a little sportscast on this. This is going to be a brief sports cast because I feel like I have to publicly address this issue and you'll indulge me here. I was just thinking about the Jordan Love era, which is now officially beginning for the Packers, but like the Jordan Love gets drafted by the Packers era, which I feel like has totally overwhelmed Aaron Rogers' career.

Because people don't remember what he was like before Jordan Love got drafted. Like Jordan Love getting drafted broke Aaron Rogers' brain. Like that and the pandemic. Not the ayahuasca, not like the going full Joe Rogan, but like actual competition. Well, those were symptoms of him having a broken brain. He wasn't doing the ayahuasca stuff before Jordan Love got drafted. Like something happened to him. Because before that, he was kind of a quirky guy.

He was sensitive. You know, he would hold grudges. But he wasn't, like this aspect of his personality was not well known. I feel like he was generally liked in the 2010s. People thought he was a great quarterback. He seemed, I think, relatively bland. He's just on the state farm commercials and all that stuff. And then Jordan Love gets drafted.

And that's when he starts, you know, talking about, you know, questioning authority and going into these sort of conspiracy theory-type talks with like Pat McAfee and all that junk. So I'm trying to remember before that. Now, because I want to just feel like, okay, this is the second quarterback of my life that has gone to the Jets. Brett Favre did this. That's where he went right after leaving the Packers. I think it's funny that every cultural artifact starts in New York and ends up in Green Bay 15 years later, except for quarterbacks. It's like the reverse of how these things normally work.

Like bands, fashion, trends, you know, they all start in New York and then green. you see them in Green Bay like 15 years later after they're already worn out. But quarterbacks, it's like a reverse thing. I feel like I'm just talking here. I'm doing like free verse here. Does any of this matter to you at all? Are you just indulging me here on my Aaron Rogers public expressions of confusion and somewhat reconciliation?

Yeah, we're just going like straight up SportsZilla and the Jabber Jocks here. But no, I mean, I think that like we, we, sometimes indulge in, you know, maybe this is like the version of us like tanking to like, you know, justify my trade to popcast. Like we're just like resting all the starters doing load management or whatever. I actually just spent the past 30 seconds looking up to see if Don Mikowski got traded to the Jets. But it turns out that was the Indianapolis Colts. But I was going to say he ended up with the Colts and didn't do anything with them. I just like how this. ties in potentially to our discussion of, you know, three major artists who have taken, you know,

various turns towards the obscure, you know, over the past decade or so with Smashing Pumpkins and Mac DeMarco. And I mean, like, again, it sounds like you have warm feelings towards Aaron Rogers. But I'm trying to. I mean, he really got on my nerves in the last few years. It was tiresome. You know, I felt like I had to defend this guy, even though I didn't really want to. And then coupled with the playoff futility, it was just, I was tired. I'm glad that he's gone. Like, I'm excited for the Jordan Love era.

I may feel differently in November or December, but right now I feel a lot of excitement for the season. But yeah, I want to, you know, it's like when you break up with someone, you want to remember the good times. You don't want to remember, like, the last six months, like, when things were horrible, and that's why you broke up. You want to remember, like, the first two years when you liked each other. So I'm trying to have that perspective with Aaron Rogers at this point. Because I do have a lot of good sports memories tied up with him.

But I don't know. If you're a Packers fan, there's, like, a problematic relationship with, like, the last two quarterbacks now. Yeah. Brett Fav obviously damaged good. I mean, Brett Fav, I mean, I don't even know. Is he going to be like setting fire to orphanages at this point? Like, I just feel like, what's the next shoe to drop with Brett Fav? Yeah.

And then Rogers has all of his weirdness. But it's like these are like the two biggest athletes of like my life as a sports fan. So like I don't know. I'm very conflicted with this. Yeah, I think though, you know, there's the wish you well sort of thing like that scene with Bruce Springsteen and high fidelity where you want to take the high road and, you know, wish someone well, or there's like the alternative where you just want to see your ex get, whatever their life equivalent is of getting traded to the Jets.

You know, I think if you're, I think if you're feeling really spiteful, this is like the best possible outcome. It's sort of like how people were wishing that Donald Trump would actually, like, follow through on getting nominated for Speaker of the House. So he'd have to like miserably show up to the house, like, every single day and listen to, all this, like, filibustering. If you have, like, just the tiniest bit of spite, like, this is the best possible outcome. So everyone wins.

Yeah, he's not even the best quarterback in his division right now. And he has been that for the entirety of his career, NFC North. I mean, there hasn't been a whole lot of competition in that regard. I mean, maybe you want to say Kirk Cousins was the best QB in the NFC North last year? You could say that. But, you know, Josh Allen obviously is the man in the AFC East. Tua, I don't know what's going on with him. I heard that he considered retirement and I kind of wish he would.

That guy's brain is broken for real. Like, we're not talking about brain worms. Like, you know, trying to find like raw water and asking questions about Ivermectin. Yeah, like, Tua's brain's actually fucking broken in a sad way. Yeah, that poor guy. Yeah. Anyway, we should wrap up sportscast here. Do you want to, do you have any Padres talk you want to do quick?

Baseball in April is me just checking the standings every five days or so just to see, like, are the Padreys good yet? Oh, no, they're still 12 and 13 and, like, getting five hit by the Cubs. I'm just going to, like, check back in in July when there's not the NBA playoffs going on. Yeah, like, I should say my bucks, you know, I'm trying to remember if there's going to be a game before we post on Friday. I think there is. I don't know, but, I mean, uh.

Don't let Jimmy Butler fucking. here this he's gonna like drop 60 on them out of spite. I'm not, I'm paying homage to Jimmy Butler man. He like murdered us man. Do we have any LeBron Dylan Brooks takes? Nah,

Dylan Brooks is like it fucking pains me because I love Memphis. I love the grit and grind Grizzlies, but like you remember like what 3-6 Mafia won the Oscar for it's like hard out there for a pimp which is like this really, it's like a bad

three-six mafia song. It's a song that, like, you have, that's the kind of song you needed to make hustle and flow. By the way, one of the worst fucking movies of that ilk I've ever seen. The backdoor man to back that ass-up speech from DJ Qualls, one of the most embarrassing scenes in movie history. But that's what I feel like watching the Grizzlies. It's like this outline of something that I would really enjoy, but just a sanitized version. Like, I cannot fucking believe that a team that prides itself on being tough guys is getting, like,

they're card pulled by the Lakers of all teams. It's just sad to behold. Well, I was thinking before when we were talking about Rogers, the separate the art from the artist conversation, which is something that happens in music, and it seems like people have a hard time doing that. Whereas in sports, people do it all the time. Yeah, absolutely.

Because he got John Morant pulling like a gun on a teenager, like that story. Yeah, the 1993 Phillies, like all of whom are dirtbags, for real. Like, Kurt Schilling, Lenny Dykstra. Like, I don't even want to get into. all their extracurriculars. Did you see that Mets documentary? It was like a four-part. Oh yeah, that team fucking ruled.

That team is great. And, like, Lenny Dykstra is, like, six gin and tonics in at the start of that interview. Like, he is hammered. By the way, I like how you snuck a movie cast into sports cast. You had the hustle and flow take. I haven't seen that movie, and I remember liking it. Is it really bad?

I remember liking it when it came out. Well, I mean, at the time, it was kind of cool to have that music that I liked to be, you know, given that sort of platform. But then, you know, it turned 3-6 Mafia more into like a meme than anything. It's just, like, corny in a way that a lot of mid-aughts culture looks now. But even at the time, there's this one scene. You got, like, you got to see this scene where, like, DJ Qualls, who, You know, you know DJ Qualls is. He looks the same in every movie.

He provides, like, the kind of white boy color. And then he just, he... He was a giant of aughts-era cinema. Absolutely. He hasn't only been around since then, but he was in road trip. Yeah. He's in hustle and flow. He was like the cousin Greg of his time.

And he gives a speech, it's like, he's, like, giving this, like, overzealous white boy retelling of rap history. You know, it's like, from backdoor man to back that ass up. like it's all black music it's just something along those lines and i mean it's like a very real phenomenon uh but yeah it's it's i don't know maybe the movie's good but like it just kind of gets into what we see so often on movies and tv where it's centered around like a musician or a writer and it's trying to convince you that this writer or musician is actually incredible when the song itself sucks i mean we're talking about like drive shaft uh that thing you that thing is you do is pretty much the only movie that convincingly pulled that off.

Yeah. So. All right. R. I'm Slesinger. He nailed that one. Terrence Howard, speaking of separate.

He was, yo, yeah, he was like my, like quite literally like my neighbor when I was growing up. Like he lived in Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania. We used to see him walk in his dog.

It was super weird. Okay. So we should get out of sports cast here because it's turning into movie cast. At some point, we need to do. Terrence Howard cast. Mr. Holland's opus, right? Is he in that?

That was him, man. Because I know Drypice is in that. Dripus is Mr. Holland. When that movie was coming out, he was starting to get famous, it's like, oh yeah, Terrence Howard, he lives down the street. Is he like one of the students? I can't fucking remember. Because I'm trying to think of how old he would have been.

We didn't have a lot of celebrities in Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania. Mr. Holland's opus. Oh, my God. I remember that movie. He's really upset because he has a son who's deaf. Oh. And like, he's a music guy. And a big plot of the movie is him trying to, like, get over the fact that his son can't hear.

It's like, what kind of asshole is Mr. Holland here? Come on, man. Get over it. Awful. Anyway, okay. End a sports cast and movie cast and Terrence Howard cast. Let's get to Indycast here because we do have some. heavy hitters.

Yeah, heavy hitters this week. And I like how you created a narrative thread there that didn't occur to me of veterans. These are all veterans here who are in, I don't want to say middle age because Mac DeMarco isn't, well, he might be actually. He's probably around 40, right, DeMarco? I want to say, I'm going to guess 35. He is, let's just go to the tape. He is 32. Holy shit.

Oh, wow. Really? Oh, 32 years old. He's like a old 32. Yeah. Just because he's been around. He's like a running back where you're like, yeah, man, I don't know if I draft Todd Gurley this year. And like he's 27 years old.

He's like, he's the Ezekiel Elliott of indie rock. Let's talk about the national first. They have a new album out today. It's called First Two Pages of Frankenstein. It's the ninth national record. It's their first since I am easy to find. which came out four years ago. And I wrote about this record for Up Rock, so if you want to read my review,

please check that out. Otherwise, I'm going to be basically saying the same things that I said in this podcast. So you probably don't need to read it, but at least click on it. Give me some clicks. But, you know, I feel like you and I are at different places with the National. We're both historically fans of this band. I want to hear what you have to say about this record, because I know that you've said before on this show that you've,

faded a little bit with this band. You're not as interested in them as he used to be. And I had to say that I am easy to find was the first national record that didn't connect with me. And I was thinking about it in relation to this new

album that I think my issue has been that they've really embraced this idea of collaboration where they have this kind of open door policy with different musicians who come in and add to their music.

And you can see that with Aaron Desner. He has his side project with Justin Vernon, Big Red Machine, and like the music festivals that they've done. It's all about collaborating, which is something philosophically, I think, is really cool. I think it's something I can see it being where, if you've been in a band for 20 years, that can make it feel a little more fresh.

You know, you're bringing in new people, new perspectives. and I think that that has been something that has probably extended the life of this band which in a way always seems like they're on the verge of breaking up at least like that's what they talk about in their interviews. Like this album has another

they almost broke up narrative that's been attached to it. But I am easy to find, you know, it was a record that for me it felt like oh, the national, they're almost like guest stars on their own record. And I just feel like

they've kind of gotten away from being the version of the band that I guess I still love the most, which is the five of them playing in a room and it's just them and maybe you have like Padma. Yeah, we got to talk about Padma. Like I'm like I was hoping that you would, man, I remember. Yeah, Padma coming in, but other than that, it's like basically the band. And I have to say like on this new record, the parts of it where it feels like they kind

of get back to that are my favorite parts. For instance, there's a song on this record called Tropic Morning News. which I think is the best song on the record, and I would actually call a classic national song. And the thing about that song is that elements of that song, and I don't know if it's like the basic track or how much of it is called from a live performance that was recorded in Hamburg, and it was widely bootlegged.

But, you know, they were playing these songs on the road last year, and I saw a couple shows on that tour, and I really liked those shows, and I really liked the new songs that they were playing. playing. And on this record, they've integrated some of those performances from the road into the record. And that's true on Tropic Morning News. There's another song called Eucalyptus that I think is really great that has that same kind of energy. And those are the moments where I felt like, okay, this is what I want from the national. And there's quite a bit of that on this record.

But then there's also the thing that they've been doing recently, which is, you know, you've got famous guest stars. You have Phoebe Bridgers on a couple songs. You have Taylor Swift. on a song called the Alcott, which I thought it was funny. Like when they sent out the promo stream for this record, the Taylor Swift song wasn't on it. Like you had to ask for that song separately because they're just worried about that leaking,

which I think it actually did this week. And, you know, God love them because that song is probably going to be the biggest hit on the record. And I love the national, and I want them to have a big audience. And from a commercial standpoint, I totally get their opening. themselves up to an audience that isn't just sad dads in their 40s.

That totally makes sense. But listening to the record, because I think this is like a near great national record. I would give this like a B or on the pitchfork scale like a 7.1, 7.2. I just want them to make that record. And I don't think they're going to actually do this, at least not for a full record. I still have a dream that they're going to go back to the alligator days where it's just the five of them with a crate of whiskey and they make songs where Matt Berger is either yelling

or he's like crooning in a very sort of sad way. That's the record I want and there's enough of that on this album to make me like it but it's not all the way there for me. Yeah, I mean, if they were to go back, Like, if they were to be able to go back to the alligator type, the national, like, I think that sound is within their reach. But I think that that draws the distinction between like Latter Day National and Old the National where I, from, let's call it, you know, part of trouble will find me on. They stopped writing the national songs and just became like writing in air quotes, the national songs. I saw that Matt Berninger talked about how for a year he underwent some serious writer's block,

which I feel they always talk about like breaking up or Matt Bernager going through like writers block on every album nowadays. And I actually saw that he took the approach that Jeff Tweedy talks about in how to write one song where if you're feeling stuck, you just find a melody, you pick a book off the shelf and just start trying to find sentences that fit with it, regardless of the intention. That's kind of what the national has been to me, where it's not like Matt Berniger is playing like a character, like Leonard Cohen or whatever, or embodying a certain type of guy.

He's embodying someone who just writes national songs for a living. And I think that's what, you know, bugs me more than, you know, the guest stars taking the focus off him or just the music sounding a lot more polished and inert. It's that there's no real, discernible emotional core to this stuff. It's like, if I have to like come up with a comparative point, it's sort of how after pop

or after up every R.E.M. or U2 album, that like sounded even remotely like their old one was a return to form, even though like they were both very overt instances of a band trying to just discover their old sound rather than pushing things forward. Look, I haven't listened to I am easy to find since 2019, but I can at least appreciate what that was trying to do. I'd probably would rather have that than, you know, the National making a 7.0 version of themselves. Like, I almost wish this album was worse.

Like, it's so close enough to being good that it just reminds me of a time when they were, like, probably my favorite indie rock band in the world, which is like the alligator through high violet era. and, you know, I love, like, a high violet might be the one that's my favorite, or at least the one I listen to the most, because it's, you get a real sense of, like, what they were going through as people, uh, in that era. And I cannot make heads or tails of like what,

I mean, I know what Matt Berners talking about now, but it's all like, I'm like, what inspired you to write this other than the drive to make another national album? Yeah, I, I don't know. This is a question that always exists for bands that have been around for a long time, which is, do you reinvent yourselves,

which I think I am easy to find is like a pretty clear example of them reinventing themselves by integrating all of these female vocalists, where Matt Berncher sometimes isn't even on the song that much? You know, it's like, again, he's almost like guesting on his own song. at times on that album Or do you retrench And do you just become like the purest version of what you do And

You know Obviously it's a case by case basis It depends on the execution and everything But I tend to think That being the best version of you Is like the superior approach And just writing good songs and like your style It just is more satisfying

even if, again, from a philosophical perspective, it might not be that exciting. Because I just don't think when a band has been around for 20, 25 years, that reinventing yourself really works. You know, it's great for talking about when you do an album. But, like, what's a good example of that? Like, what's a band that, I guess, Lowe is the only band maybe that did that successfully?

I'm trying to think of other examples. I mean, I think Wilco albums. regardless of like whether you see them as just like kind of being returned to form or you know advanced like incremental advances I always get a sense of like where Jeff Tweedy is coming from which makes all of them interesting I mean like low is obviously the model like it's unbelievable how much mileage they got out of you know what was once seen to be an inflexible sound but um yeah like national just to me it's like an institution now you know yeah and I do wonder to what degree Aaron Desner working with other artists like dilutes what the national does.

Because now, like you say, it is an institution and it is like a sound. You know, like those Taylor Swift records are in the national vein. They're almost like national records in a sense. You know, like we haven't had a new national record in four years, but it doesn't feel like it. You know, and I think that is partly why, because we've had Aaron Desner doing all these different things. Again, God bless him. You know, I admire Aaron Desner, and, you know, he can probably now build 10 Long Pond Studios all over the world with the money he's made from working with Taylor Swift.

But I don't know. Again, I think the moments on this record that I appreciate the most are the ones where I feel like they're getting back to being a band. And there's enough of that on this record to make me recommend it. I don't think it's a great national record. Again, I'd give it a B, three and a half stars, 7.2, like, you know, different scales there. That's about where I think it slots, but I do like it more than the previous record. Does it feel that, like, despite, you know, having Phoebe Bridgers and having Taylor Swift on there,

that there's not a ton of momentum going into the album release? Yeah. Like, that Phoebe single just came and went, and I didn't see anyone really talking about it. I think this kind of brings up the fundamental irony of me right now at the National. It's that I am fully in the demographic that they were always said to appeal to, which is like 35 to 45 year old male, like sports. And now like their music has like no power over me whatsoever. Whereas when I was like 25 or 27, it's like, oh man, this is this is aspirational stuff right here. This is what it's going to be like when I'm old and living in the city. and yeah, I just, it's just, I find this phenomenon happening a lot where like the music that sounded to me like being old and dignified at 25, like I have trouble relating to it now that I'm old and dignified.

Well, I think the national had a thing on what I think most people would agree are their strongest records where they aged with their audience where it seemed like each record was addressing a certain period of, of your life. life. Like, alligator is very much like a late 20s type record, I think. Yeah. And Boxer is kind of like an early 30s. High Violet is maybe mid-30s. Trouble find me is like, you're settling down now, late 30s, early 40s. And I don't know if like the records after that have the same kind of feeling, but that

might be a totally myopic opinion. You know, I saw someone yesterday responding to my review. saying, like, I am easy to find is my favorite national record. I think they are that kind of band that has different audiences for different eras. And as terms of their momentum with this record, you know, I'm sure that there's like a lot of people that discovered them because of Taylor Swift who are probably really excited for this record. And this might be their favorite because Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift are on it. So that's interesting.

I'm curious to see how that unfold. I mean, if you go to a national show now, people don't get excited when they play alligator songs. Yeah. If they play alligator songs, aside from Mr. November, you know? Yeah, there's like that audience, you know, they have a different audience like at their live shows now, which is a testament to what they're doing, obviously. So yeah, I'm curious to see what the response is like.

But, you know, for me, as someone who's been around for a long time with this band, I wouldn't call this a return to form? I guess my hope, and I don't think they'll do this, but I hope that this is a stepping stone to them making more of a band record next time. Because I do think that that would be exciting. That does seem like

something kind of genuinely different now with them, because they haven't really done that in a while. And I think people would be psyched for it. But again, I am a 45-year-old sad dad, so take that opinion with a grain of salt. let's get to our next record here

and I can confidently say that neither one of us have listened to this album in fall I'm gonna go on a limb and assume you haven't listened to this album in full it's called One Wayne G it's by Mac DeMarco 199 songs on this record

I believe it's about eight hours long it is indeed about eight hours long and can I just say before we took because we're not going to review this album I think we're just going to talk about this record as something that exists but I got to give a shout out to Anthony Fantano because I saw that he reviewed this album this week I didn't I didn't watch his review but he did post a video about this album so presumably he listened to all eight hours of this record and he posted a video about it and that is why he is the, what does he call himself, the internet's leading music nerd? He's the busiest music, something along those lines. I mean, that's why he's earned the title with that. And hats off to Fantano. I like Fantano, by the way. I feel like there's a lot of hate towards Fantano in the music critic community. There's a lot of spite toward him, but I respect what he does, and I respect that he recorded a review of this eight-hour album that not

even Mac DeMarcos probably heard in its entirety. You know what I'm looking at right now? I'm just looking at the Spotify streams expecting that, you know, the first off, the first song, 2018-0512, it's titled like an APS note. It has 846,000 plays. And it's four minutes long. But the interesting part is that you would think scrolling down, like it would just get less and less and less.

O Contrere, song number 177 has 162,000 streams on Spotify. And there's just like these random songs in the middle of this that just have so much more plays for some reason. Like 202817 Proud True Toyota, this is song 75, about 500,000 plays. What is determining this? I am just dying to, like, I know that it's like silly to treat music. like sports or like just quantifying things. But I really want to get under the hood. That's amazing.

I mean, are people just putting this on before they go to bed and letting it play like all night long? And then when the album's over, they know that it's time to wake up. Because you get your full eight hours of sleep listening to this album. I wonder if some of that comes into play with those spins. But it's fascinating that there'd be different. you know sort of like there'd be spikes in the middle because it does suggest that people are manually going through this album and listening to each one.

And by the way, these are most, are they all instrumental? I think it's all. Yeah. This is going off the Five Easy Hot Dogs album that came out earlier this year. One of these songs is 22 minutes. There's another that's six minutes. Like these are not like snippets. This is straight up pastichio medley type shit.

it, you know, to create a bridge to our next topic. But we can not get ahead of ourselves. I was going to say that's good foreshadowing here on the pod. But yeah, this is one of the longest albums of all time. I think we can call it that. It was a surprise release. I think it dropped on Friday. Yeah.

I think Mac MacDarco seems surprised that it dropped, too. This is almost like a data breach. It's like the wiki leaks of like MacDemarko's phone. Like people heard five easy hot dogs and they're like... We want more of this. We want more of this. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is like a hot dog eating contest.

Yeah, it's fucking Kobayashi shit right here. How much do we want to read into this? Do we want to like make a statement about this album? And Mark DeMarco is like dying or something like that and he's, this is him like trying to create like a, like a legacy or something like that. Well, you know, this week, people continued to talk about the Frank Ocean Coachella incident. And there seems to be a desire out there to think peace eyes. If I can make up that word, it's kind of an awkward phrasing. But I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, people really want to look at that and say that it's the end of something. that Frank Ocean tanking at Coachella, that it's like the end of the 2010s, that it's the end of festivals being significant, that it's the end of like a certain kind of stardom. You know, we really wanted to clear something about this performance. And it may very well be one of those things or all of those things. It may just be a crappy festival performance that doesn't matter.

I mean, like with Frank Ocean, his genius, if we assume he's doing this deliberately, is that he does so little that anything he does seem significant. So it's like Frank Ocean, blue his nose yesterday. What does this mean about the future of tissues? Yeah. He can use a handkerchief. Does this mean that millennials like handkerchiefs over paper? Is this an ecological statement about climate change?

Climate change. You know, we have to cut down on our use of paper products. I mean, that's the level of discourse with Frank Ocean. Should we do that with Mac DeMarco, too? He's of that same generation. He was a very significant artist. Dorm room poster shit. Yeah.

Very influential. And now he's in this kind of weird era making instrumental songs. He hasn't toured in a while. He hasn't put out a proper record in a while. I guess no disrespect to this 199 song album. I guess proper record, I mean songs with. vocals and a traditional MacDamarko record. He hasn't done that in a while. Is this also a rejection of pop stardom? Like, should we read anything larger into this or is just like a wacky Macdemarco thing?

I mean, kind of. I did, it did take a little bit of digging to sense a, you know, perhaps like a greater trend. And like the fact that people are trying to think peace, the Frank Ocean performance, it's like if you consider music to be very similar to sports or politics, not to bring us back to the sports cast or politicast type thing, but you got to make, like, it's a 24-hour content cycle. You got to create, you got to create on the content farm. And I mean, I've read like, I don't know how many fucking mock NFL drafts I've read over the past year.

Like, I'll just read anything that, like, creates content. And like Frank Ocean, yeah, we're just going to continue. to do that, but I think with him and MacDamarko, I could see like similarities in terms of like, I don't know, rejecting whatever the expectations of fame are. If like you put it up against, say, like, Japanese breakfast playing every single festival known to mankind or just, I guess what we're looking at with, you know, the era of like, Halsey, you know, getting, breaking up with her label about like TikTok stuff. It does seem in a way that, like a rejection of having to be constantly present.

And I think this will ultimately be good for Mac DeMarco's reputation in the long term. I mean, you know, he's released, I think he started his own record label and, you know, Frank Ocean. He won't be releasing albums or touring on any sort of, you know, known song cycle. And I think that the desire to play this up may stem from this desire in general to, I don't know, create more mystery with our artists. I think that there is this underlying fatigue with the constant presence of music and the constant presence of people on Twitter. And maybe it's just like in a weird way, like just some old school grasp of mystique. Yeah. By releasing eight hours of music, that somehow in a way makes you seem more remote.

Yeah, that's, you know, I can buy into that, especially as the co-host of an indie rock podcast who needs to talk about narratives every week. Yeah. I can get behind that. Yeah, with Matt DeMarco, I will say it is intriguing to me what he's done this year because I don't know what he's going to do next. recently announced some shows he's going to be doing in New York, L.A., Paris, and London this summer. I think he's playing all the instrumental songs. So, I don't know. I wouldn't be shocked if he announced, like, again, a conventional MacDamako record next week,

or if he waited another couple years. You know, I have no idea what he's going to do next. So I guess it's working on me, this MacDamako era, in terms of building mystery. Well, speaking of building mystery. Sarah McLaughlin cast Is that building a mystery? Yes Okay

It's a good song It is a great song Sarah McLaughlin We fuck with Sarah McLaughlin here Fumbling towards Ecstasy I believe is the name of that record Yep No building a mystery I think is on surfacing

Oh okay What's that song? Anyway You gotta do a little bit more than There's sweet surrender There is Possession Yeah, possession, that's a good song, too.

I had a huge crush on Sarah McLaughlin in high school, too. She was just like this beautiful woman singing these beautiful songs, and she just had like that's such a vibe. I will remember you, dogs. She had a great vibe. Great vibe. You're just like, oh, I want to like go to a coffee shop with Sarah McLaughlin and just talk about politics and, you know, veganism

and taking care of pets and all that kind of stuff. Let's talk about the smashing, Pumpkins. You know, it's hilarious to me. You know, our audience is great. We love our audience. And it's just funny what our audience demands for us to talk about. And Spanshee Pumpkins having a new triple album rock opera.

This is like at the top of the list. I had people messaging me. You're going to talk about this album. This album came out last week, I think. Sort of like two thirds of it. is out as of this recording, I think. Right. So there's a third volume dropping.

May 5th, I think. May 5th. Okay, so we've heard two thirds of this album. It's called Adam, A-T-U-M. It's a rock opera and three acts. And this morning, I spent way too much time on Smashing Pumpkin's Reddit, reading about the plot of this album. How much this Billy Corgan post on Smashing Pumpkin's Reddit?

I know you do. No, he does. I don't know, but there's some serious Adam scholars out there doing the work. And I appreciate it. I mean, I couldn't get that deep into this Reddit post describing the plot of this album because it's just like, it's like Dune level convoluted. You know, like Frank Herbert would listen to this album and say, this is too complicated for me.

All I know, okay, it's about, like, do you know the plot of this album? I would love to say that I do. Now, mind you, when I did my 20th anniversary piece on Machina Machines of God, I did get into the Smashing Pumpkins lore. And it just confirmed for me that like until Billy Corgan starts doing everything himself, his vision will never be fully realized. Like, apparently Ghost and the Glass Children is part of what was intended to be this animated. series, like this pre-Garilla

sort of thing. So, no, I'm going to guess that if Billy Corgan's past work as any indication, the plot of Atom is like a barely fictionalized version of himself fighting against, I don't know,

the ignorance of the masses. It's sort of like in that muse tool like borderline Rogan just asking questions, maybe getting into some cancel culture type shit. Am I off the market? here. Well, okay, so Atum.

Up and at them. Yes. Is that what we, okay. I think that's how we pronounce it. Okay, it's about a dude named Shiny. He's an astronaut named Shiny, S-H-I-N-Y. And he's lost in space. And this may or may not be a metaphor

for cancel culture. Because he's been cast out of Earth, apparently. And that's about all I know. Because again, I was reading this Reddit post about the plot of this album. And like each song had like a long paragraph. So like there's like a ton of plot like in every song. Like, okay, just like the first song, which is the title track.

This is part of the Reddit post. It says, in the distant future, we are introduced to a beautifully designed spacecraft hovering above the earth. which has descended into riots in general and happiness among the population. Draw connections to the modern world if you want to, right there. As the distance grows between us and the Earth, we realize that the world, as it has been presented to us, is not all that it seemed. There are structures built on the dark side of the moon. There are faces on Mars' surface.

And as we float closer toward the sun, we find that the sun, and this is in quotes, is not what we were told. was. So even the sun has lied to us on this album. So I was listening to this record this week. And I have to say that I was like kind of shocked by how poorly produced it is. I think in a DMT to you I said that it reminds me of like one of these late period Marvel movies like where the CGI is really bad. Yes. You know like Ant Man and like all these bombs that have come out recently.

it has that kind of vibe to it and you know what I expect from a smashy pumpkin's record at this point is not necessarily like great songs but like I do want cool guitar tones cool drum sounds cool synth tones like that album they put out

I guess it's about a decade now Oceana came out in 2012 I think that record has that and I think there's some pretty good songs on that record actually but it sounds good. It sounds like a 90s smashing pumpkins record. And it's like,

okay, that's good enough for me. This album, though, it's like a band camp record. It's like someone made this in their bedroom. I'm like, can he not afford flood anymore?

Not to make a triple album. I don't know. I mean. Alan Mulder, fine, he's maybe out of reach. We can't get flood in here? Come on.

I mean, do you agree? I just think this album, beyond the songs, it sounds cheap in a way that is surprising to me given that the pumpkins are still like an arena headlining act. I don't know. I was really kind of disappointed

just in this record sonically. Yeah, so I just want to like stay off the bat. There is absolutely no fucking chance of me listening to even a third of this album. Like I put my work in. What? You didn't listen to it? I listened to some of it. I listened to the singles.

I mean, I got a day job and shit. If I'm not going to listen to, like, I almost think I'd rather listen to eight hours of MacDamarko than two hours of Smashing Pumpkins. But look, I put my work in with Sear or CYR, whatever it was called in 2020. And I think that is a very important turning point for the Smashing Pumpkins because the, putting aside whatever plot Billy Corrigan says that he, you know, has there. it was him teaching himself how to produce music on logic now I just you know to give you a sense of like the inner mechanics of Indycast I record this audio on logic it's about 200 bucks or two to 300 bucks you can get it on your Mac and um you know it you can get like literally studio quality music made in your own bedroom if I wanted to I could put like the telephone vocal filter on this and

this episode, I might sound like I'm in the strokes. You can get a lot of really cool production tricks and presets. You can also get some of the shittiest guitar tones known to man. Like, sometimes, like, you'll be like, okay, I want the British rock amp preset. And you just don't know how this was intended to be good. And that's what comes up when I listen to Smashing Pumpkin's music nowadays. It's like you mentioned band camp. It's like this sounds like it was produced on an iPad,

which you could totally make Smashing Pumpkin sounding music on something like this. But I don't expect that from Smashing Pumpkins themselves. And I mean, I think we can all agree the last thing Smashing Pumpkins needed in order to, you know, return to their peak was putting more on, you know, putting more on Billy Corgan. And I don't know if I would listen to a three-hour smashing pumpkins album nowadays, but what I would watch is like a get-back style documentary, which you totally know Billy Corgan would be down for. Just watching him at a computer while like James Iha or like Jimmy Chamberl and just look at their phones for three hours straight.

I mean, look, I think being in the Smashing Pumpkins is probably rewarding in some ways. But I would love to just know what it's like to be James Iha right now. in the process of making Smashing Pumpkin's music. Yeah, I mean, the Get Back documentary would be great. I mean, just a documentary about the pumpkins in general is like one of the great white whales that's still out there. There's been so many music documentaries. Yeah. But like a Smashing Pumpkins comprehensive, you know, do it history of Eagle style where it's like a four-hour thing.

I think both of us would be called on to contribute to that, right? Well, I would hope so. But if it were just the band members, that'd be fine too. I mean, just that would be an amazing movie because even those sponsoredized. You know, Billy's going to say some bullshit. That'd be great. It'd be amazing. So hopefully that movie is already in production or it will be down the road.

I'd be so excited for a smashing pumpkin stock. What I want more than anything is. the one thing I would like Billy Corgan to take hold of. Like sometimes you'll see artists do like rank your albums type lists. And as much as much I enjoyed the top 50 Smashing Pumpkins list that you made, I think it was last year. Like does Billy Corgan like fully believe that he's like still producing heat here? Like how many Adam songs would he put in a top 50 Smashing Pumpkins list? I mean, I would say, well, it's interesting because he didn't interview recently with Rolling Stone

where he said, like they asked him, how many songs from this album are you going to be playing on your tour this summer? And he said four or five. And I was actually surprised by that. Too little or too many? I thought that was fewer than I expected. I thought he would be like, we're going to play the whole thing. You know, so four or five seems reasonable. And, And you should check out that interview. It was actually pretty interesting. He sounds relatively humbled at this point in that interview. And he seems to be a little more self-aware of where he's at.

So I don't know. He may only put four or five Adam songs on his 50 Smashing Pumpkin's best songs list, which is four or five too many, by the way. But, you know, I don't think he would be overly excessive. One thing that is exciting, I don't know if you heard this news, but he said this in the same Rolling Stone interview I just referenced. Swan box set. Yes. Coming our way with like 65.

Yeah. 65, 65, 65, 5, unreleased songs. That I do want to hear. I do want to hear the Swan Box set. I actually think that that, and I say that unironically, I mean, somewhat ironically because I think it's ridiculous. But, you know, I wrote about Swan early this year. I like that record. I think it's the best thing he's done in the 21st century is this one record.

It's the one record that I think has songs that I would put with the best of like 90s smashing pumpkins. I would argue that because Machina came out technically in 2000, like we're talking like January 2000. I would still, I would say that's like my, I wouldn't say that's his best. I think it's my favorite.

But yeah, like 65 swan songs. Like, I'm just dying to know like, okay, like are these like endless numbers of like demo variations on like honestly? Or is it like five albums worth of like Zwan songs that? Again, because I know that had like sort of a plot too, right? Yeah. I don't know if the album is a concept album. Like there's a, the title track is like really long.

And it has sort of like a Christ like narrative to it. Yeah, that was like a cover of like an old spiritual, right? I don't think so. I mean, he may have like incorporated, but there's not like an 11 minute spiritual. Gotcha. So I don't think so. I think this just reveals like, you know, when we're talking about like our lack of knowledge of the Zwan, you know, narrative or the, Smashing Pumpkins read it.

It's like every single time I feel like, oh, I've written more about Smashing Pumpkins than anyone, you know, or that like I'm an expert. No fucking way. There are people who are so much more better, like I would be, I feel like I would be a fraud if I tried to write a Smashing Pumpkin's book. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they have one of the most committed fan bases, I think, of a band from that era. And they're also a band that I think, and we've talked about this before, they transcend. their generation, I think, better than a lot of the 90s bands do.

They feel like they have attained, you know, like what the cure had. You know, and people who weren't around in the 80s, they still listen to those 80s cure records after the fact. And I think the pumpkins kind of have a similar thing. So definitely listen to those records. I don't know if you need to listen to this new one. Actually, do listen to it so you can tell me if it's any good. You've not reached the part of our episode.

that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, so this is an album that I've been really, it's one of the rare albums where I got the promo super early, so I can say I've been enjoying it

for quite a long time, and it's, uh, I believe, the, I think the album title is, and The Charm, it's by a, it's by Avalon Emerson, and it's called Avalon Emerson and the Charm. Avalon Emerson is someone I interviewed for Stereo Gum about a month ago,

and she had spent like the past decade as a DJ in San Francisco and Berlin. It was a very interesting conversation because, you know, just super intelligent, thoughtful person about music and about trends and about like where electronic music is gone. It's it's definitely a different vibe than, you know, the usual me interviewing some emo-jason band of like 23-year-olds. But, you know, she had established like a real reputation. She had done like Coachella, Glastonbury. Her DJ kicks compilation from 2020 is super good. She's done remixes of Robin, but also slow dive.

And that's really where this album lands. You know, you would call it like Dream Pop, but it's also a little more like European techno. If you liked, I don't know, basically any DJ kicks compilation from the past 20 years or the last DJ Co's album. Or like Cocktoe twins, but make it a little more like. California vibey. This hits a very specific target. And it's just a really refreshing, put it on like whenever I just want to listen to something album.

But there's a lot of substance to it as well. And more to the point, like, you know, this is someone making their first songwriter album at the age of 34, which, you know, is kind of inspiring. I always like to see people, you know, kind of find new ground to cover when they're not like 23, you know. So maybe I'll learn how to, you know, use logic. like Billy Corrigan to make my own

version of Adam inspired by both Billy Corgan and Avalon Emerson. The record I'm going to talk about it's called Forgive the City and it's by a band from Nashville called appropriately enough Country Westerns.

And this is the kind of band that like is pandering to people like me to an almost egregious degree. I mean this is a classic sounding bar band rock type group. You got some elements of the replacements. You got like a little dash of Springsteen, especially in the vocals.

There's some of like the rockier side of REM, a little bit of big star in there. Just like record collector rock, right down the middle. But it's a really well-executed record. I think sometimes albums like this can feel a little hermetically sealed, like it's been packaged to, again, appeal to a certain bearded guy demographic. but I think that this record is gritty and sweaty in a way that feels a little more genuine, a little more organic. And it's a record that I've really found myself enjoying,

especially as it pertains to something that we talked about last week, which is backyard barbecue music. This is like a band that went into a studio to consciously make that kind of record. Like you put this record on and you will be instantly, you know, cooking up some cheese burgers within five minutes. I guarantee it. So very well-timed record for the time of year that we're in in the spring as we're easing into summer here. It's a record I expect to spin quite a bit as I hang out in my backyard. It's called Forgive the City. The band is Country Westerns. The record is out today. And if you are like me, if you have similar taste,

I think you will enjoy this record. I cannot believe you didn't bring up Diarrhea Planet when talking about this band being from Nashville. And I listen to it. I'm like, I bet these guys, if they haven't opened for Titus Andronicus, they're going to. And lo and behold, they are opening for Titus Andronicus. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie. and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.